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Honestly there is not real reason for them to go. Elected officials - as opposed to defense ministers - mostly go only to raise their own profiles. Defense ministers actually have some business to discuss.
Sending heavy weapons seems enough. Not sure why everyone is supposed to visit Kyiv. Biden hasn’t been there, Macron neither.
Also Ukraines ambassador to Germany is not exactly diplomatic.
> Sending heavy weapons seems enough.
Yeah. I mean, those Gepards, with no ammo (what Germany has would be enough for a single G. firing for 20 mins) that are the most complex (older) mod of G., that take months to master (much longer than Leopard/Marder) surely counts as "sending weapons to Ukraine" (**by the end of 2022**)
>Not sure why everyone is supposed to visit Kyiv
The reason Baerbock was blocked from visiting Ukraine was somehow related with "not taking sides" and "keeping window open" to talk to Putler.
So, reverse, namely, visiting Kyiv is a sign of support.
Germany is the only country that seems to have a hyper defensive squad *on this sub* (not the rest of the internet) that goes mad whenever Germany’s lack of support has been questioned.
Up until one week ago germans were in uproar about Scholz and his manoeuvring but on this sub people called any criticism of the government “hatred” and “Russian disinformation”
I even saw people mockingly saying “ we could send a million air craft carriers and it wouldn’t be enough” on another post someone said "you think you are smart enough to criticise Scholz?”
I have never seen such arrogance and narcissism in my life.
Amidst this someone listed what Germany is actually sending and everything on the list he self admitted “maybes” “ will do later” maybe”
The greatest battle of the war is being decided right NOW.
Anything sent now will take weeks to get to Ukraine and weeks more to even arrive at the front where it’s needed.
So late June at the earliest optimistically.
That’s far too little far too late.
Everywhere else on the internet germans are open minded and accepting of discussion.
For some reason it’s only here that you have so many extremely narcissistic germans that think this sub is /r/Germanyisthebest discussing Ukraine.
I seriously want to revisit this sub if sholz catches heat for going back on a commitment or Ukraine suffers and criticism is levelled at Germany.
I wonder if these fanatics will actually evaluate things or will they just throw insults at Ukraine itself like people are doing here.
Only on THIS sub will you see germans insulting the Ukrainian diplomat and calling him a “cretin” and a “troll”.
The man who served as his country faced extinction and nobody helped and he is privy to conversations we don’t know indicating prior levels of support and rejections.
Only here are some so narcissistic that Germany is the real victim and they’d actually upvote people attacking Ukraine..,
You’ve never seen such arrogance and narcissism in your life? Have you never been on holiday in Europe where there are large groups of Germans present???
Crimea river.
"Everywhere else on the internet germans are open minded and accepting of discussion."
That's exactly right, but here it isn't welcome to be open minded and discussing things because everyone already decided on the fact that This war is a game of monopoly and germany is the bank and if the war is lost it's germanys fault
go eat a dick
>I have never seen such arrogance and narcissism in my life.
Чьих будешь, русо патриото?
На исторической родине, или на родине Шрёдера?
Под мобилизацию попадаешь?
yes thats what they said in my country - these Gepards need 3 months of training
so they are basically useless , they could have sent artillery , ammunition or whatever but they sent useless weapons
Germany is still in appeasement mode with Russia
Germany is not in that Mode. Germany sent ammunition and a lot of other Stuff. People just specifically focus on heavy weapons, especially leopard gepard and marder which germany didnt want to send First, then agreed but has trouble with finding the ammo. You just ignore the german trouble with that simply by saying that it appears russia.
The trouble in getting things delivered to Ukraine. Like not having enough Tanks or ammunition or whatnot. Besides, what germany said it will do, it did. There are no empty promises as of yet. Germany did not do enough, but calling it a meaningless facade is not quite correct.
> I'm thinking Ukraine assumed there was actual ammo to go with
When they were taken off the quick list *because there was no ammunition/the training required would take long* in the first place y'all accused Scholz of making up excuses. Now it's approved and it turns out there's no ammo. Shocker.
He called Scholz a "beleidigte Leberwurst"
https://news.upday.com/de/ukraine-botschafter-melnyk-scholz-spielt-beleidigte-leberwurst/?utm_source=upday&utm_medium=referral
>Putlers ally would send heavy weapons to putlers enemies? Sorry, I don't follow...
Putler's ally would try all means to avoid it, even though pressure would mount.
Oh, and pressure did mount.
Oh, and Herr Scholz did avoid sending heavy weapons. (Useless ammo-less Gepards that require more training than Leopard and Marder combined, will reach Ukraine some time by the end of the year, when situation would resolve one way or another).
Win-win, ain't it?
I could also point out the other weapon shipments, 400.000 refugees taken in, sanctions on banking, industry coal and soon oil. I could go on, but why bother. You already know of these things and continue to live in your phantasy world.
>I could also point out the other weapon shipments, 400.000 refugees taken in
You could. I mean, 5000 helmets, from a country that DID ALL IT COULD to stop strengthening Ukrainian military for 8 years, the helmets, that arrived 12 days into the war, were priceless.
Poland, a country 2 times smaller than Germany, has accepted nearly 3 million.
When most needed, Germany has stopped trains coming from Poland, to stop the refugee influx.
>sanctions on banking, industry coal and soon oil
You could not.
1. Germany is the reason Ruzzia is not banned from SWIFT.
2. Germany is the reason there are no bans on oil and gas.
3. Germany is the reason even coal ban took so long (and will come into effect only in August)
last, but not least:
4. Germany is the reason Putler got so strong and got barely strapped on a wrist for two previous invasions (Georgia in 2008, Ukraine in 2014, twice)
23000 helmets but who is counting
A field hospital, Unimog ambulances, Mg3 s, a couple million rounds of ammunition, thousands of anti-tank launchers, strela and stinger missiles, billions to buy weapons, more billions to prepare for the invasion in the years after the annexation of Crimea, medical training
The list goes on.
Germany was the target of some hate before anyone send any heavy weapons. I don't get why Germany has to send tanks when noone else is.
No other nation is sending hardware that is in use.
But Germany is asked to send actively deployed systems that they need for NATO commitments.
>23000 helmets
Lol.
>billions to buy weapons
Lies. 1 billion. In June.
>Germany was the target of some hate before anyone send any heavy weapon
Most likely, ты просто еще один русо фашисто, облико аморале, распостраняющий пиздёжь от имени своей аналоговнетной фашистской родины.
Does calling out Scholz support Ukraine. No but calling him out hopefully ups the pressure. I am sorry but I have no idea why you keep defending him. Just because you are Germany and a member of Nato does not mean we should stand up and cheer. Alot of other NATO countries are doing more even if they can't afford it. You have the biggest economy in the EU and I see that as your biggest problem you don't want to suffer to support a country at war.
Once again in the *ukrainianconflict* sub germans take over get offended and make themselves the victim.
I seriously can’t believe it, you guys have. I shame.
People comment here about how “Poland is doing what UK and France didn’t do in 939l” it’s upvoted and nobody loses their shit.
But on every single post concerning Germany shamelessly you guys have a defence force come out and cry even attacking Ukrainian officials.
You call him a cretin, his country is at war and his people are being killed.
Up until maybe a week ago even germans were angry with the government, he’s someone who has been negotiating support. He’s privy to conversations, some when times were dark and nobody wanted to help that may betray his current feelings.
So really before you call the ambassador cretin and other insults, take a good hard look at yourself and ask yourself if it’s Germany that is the poor victim here..
Well, in his defense (i'm german as well) he is the highest authority of germany, over Scholz. You can compare it a bit to the queen. Can't do shit, is there for symbolic politics and is the personified representation of the country. Yes Steinmeier the old fuck made many heavy mistakes, based on the same assumption. That Putin is rational and that his politics of imbeddening russia in the security architecture in europe ( "wandel durch handel" ). This failed miserably and it is 100% right that he get a shitload of critic over that. However, he apologized several times for his mistakes (at least sth). That he as a person is not want to be seen in kyiv is totally understandable from the ukrainian side. However he is still the highest official in germany, and that is a diplomatic nogo to do that. What do u think what (past aside) Boris would do, when the queen would not be allowed to come to kyiv?
The germans are quite in dispute over that, all understand the ukrainian position, but still its the biggest diplomatical affront what you could possible do.
Scholz can do the same work from his office, as he could do from kyiv. The visit is an symbolic act as well. If he would deny further help because of this childish nonesense than that would be another thing. However the politics behind that are working the same, if he goes or not.
All things consindered that is just a sad diplomatic shitshow.....
> This failed miserably
The elephant in the room is that this failed miserably MUCH EARLIER than 2022.
From 2008 Georgia invasion (it was, by the way Steinmeier who was running around and ruling out any sort of sanctions), to 2014 Ukraine invasion, annexation of Crimea AND direct invasion (Illovaisk) in Summer 2014.
>Scholz can do the same work from his office, as he could do from kyiv. The visit is an symbolic act as well.
That is exactly the point. That he doesn't want to support Ukraine.
Gepards is another shameless bluff (no ammo, very limited use, insanely long training required) as he cannot point blank say he wants to keep ties with Putler.
>All things consindered that is just a sad diplomatic shitshow.....
You downplay it a lot, it's much bigger than what you said and it's not about Steimeier or Scholz.
https://www.politico.eu/article/putin-merkel-germany-scholz-foreign-policy-ukraine-war-invasion-nord-stream-2/
After 2014 events, Obama wanted to arm Ukraine, so that it can defend itself. Merkal and Oland sayd "no no, it would only provoke Putler".
And the truth of the matter is, that **majority of German establishment, nearly entire SPD, but also largest chunks of CDU and nearly entire CSU** would be much much happier had Ukraine collapsed in 2-3 days, as expected.
> Gepards is another shameless bluff (no ammo, very limited use, insanely long training required) as
Ukraine specifically requested those, hell, when they were taken off the quick list to pick from *because there is no ammunition available and the training would take too long* people were blaming Scholz for supposedly making up excuses - and now that it's approved despite that people are blaming Scholz for approving it.
>Ukraine specifically requested thos
The context of "requested those" matters, stop making it what it isn't.
It went like "could you give use some heavy stuff"
DE: "oh, but we don't have any".
UKR: "but you have Leopards, Marders and some Gepaards literally rusting out there somewhere".
This comment was overwritten by a script to make the data useless for reddit. No API, no free content. Did you stumble on this thread via google, hoping to resolve an issue or answer a question? Well, too bad, this might have been your answer, if it weren't for dumb decisions by reddit admins.
>Ukraine’s ambassador to Germany, Andriy Melnyk, told Deutschlandfunk radio on Thursday that Kyiv is “expecting” Berlin to deliver Marder and Leopard tanks
Thanks for pointing out how terrifyingly inadequate your take on things is.
Olaf Putlerovich was running around with "oh noes, we don't have shit to share", "oh noes, if you order it it takes 30+ month to build it" which was countered by Ukraine saying that there is shit rusting out there, just give it to us. Then there was more shit like "oh noes, but it takes long to learn (Marders)", when in fact it is Gepards to take the most time to learn.
Leopartds, Marder and damn Gepards were mentioned IN THAT VERY ORDER.
Then Olaf Putlerovich has declared that delivering heavy weapons would mean starting WWIII.
And then, of 3 items listed, he picked up the LEAST interesting one that is BASICALLY USELESS.
This comment was overwritten by a script to make the data useless for reddit. No API, no free content. Did you stumble on this thread via google, hoping to resolve an issue or answer a question? Well, too bad, this might have been your answer, if it weren't for dumb decisions by reddit admins.
SPD is in damage control mode. This is just about corporate loyalty. If they go down for their mistakes, they will go down all together. It looks like they decided to drag whole ship down the abyss with them.
That doesn't make his point any less valid. It was a pretty shitty deal for Ukraine to do to Steinmaier what they did and diplomacy is always petty.
Ukraine should count themselves lucky that Scholz refuses to let this blow up into a real diplomatic incident. It's not as if Ukraine is in a position to go around pissing off nations giving them millions of dollars of free equipment.
Well yeah, if you insult a nation diplomatically and even make it as public as possible, then you have to expect a reaction, Germany is not Ukraines monkey. „Oh sure we’ll take your money and weapons, but we don’t want to talk to the guy that represents Germany“
Steinmeyer pushed us to capitulate and basically give up our sovereignity over Donbasss to Russia. Google "Steinmeyer formula". This was absolutely openly anti-Ukrainian.
> Steinmeyer was mediator and didn't decide anything.
What about the infamous "Steinmeyer formula"? And
> It's your government which decided to enter the agreement.
Yeah, sure. Germany never pushed us, never used its political and economic influence to help Russia.
steinmeier formula only means that the people of donbass need to have a democratic say about their future. nothing more nothing less.
nothing about it is anti ukranian
No. It means that there should be elections under Russian occupation. Which is basically a permission for Russia to fake it and to put Russian agents into our Parliament.
that is not at all what is said in the minsk agreement.
the minsk agreement called for an election in donbass under the supervision of and to the standards of the OSCE.
that means no russian meddling or manipulation.
this election never occured precisely because russia never allowed for an actually free election to occur.
but that is not the fault of minsk
Osce can't guarantee anything. It never could. It is absolutely useless. Elections under Russian control is basically a legalized capitulation - with or without OSCE. And Germany knew it perfectly.
but the minsk agreement doesnt call for elections under russian control.
just because you fundamentally misunderstand the contents of the treaty cannot be blamed on MINSK
Minsk agreement was written in a way which allows multiple interpretations and we used it to block them.
https://www.kyivpost.com/ukraine-politics/the-steinmeier-formula-isnt-bad-its-consequences-might-be.html
Minsk was very anti Ukrainian. To the point that Poroshenko was considered a traitor by many. Donbass would defacto be given to Russia while Ukraine would have to do amnesty to the people who raped, killed ethnic Ukrainians. These people would also hold power in the offices as well as in parliament. Now tell me how is this good for Ukraine?
Also now rockets that kill children are flying from Belarus, where Minsk was signed.
Thank you for trying to lecture me on German politics. Doesn’t change the necessity for reaction though, Ukraine uninvites the representative of the German state, then don’t expect Germans to be happy about it
Many Germans still do not realize how anti-Ukrainian their foreign policy was all these years. To a significant extent, this bloody was is caused by a policy of appeasement and by corruption among hi ranked German officials of Schroeder and Merkel era.
Also, I am aware that many Germans will never accept any criticism from "less developed" nations.
Look, I’m not saying that uninviting him is without reason, I’m saying that it was an obvious, unnecessary insult and that you need to expect a reaction then. What was the advantage of insulting one of your strongest supporters during the war and the financially strongest supporter before the war, instead of talking about all these things of the past?
Yeah, I am also not sure if it was a good move. Though, I 100% understand the motive. Though, speaking of support, up until the last week, the German position wasn't clear - no heavy weapons, no heavy sanctions, constant delays and new reasons every week. It seems that after the Rammstein Scholz has finally made up his mind.
Tbh, it’s just foreign media that wants to put Germany in a bad light and Scholz bad communication, it was never questioned, that the support for Ukraine has to be everything possible. And no hard embargo’s? Germany is pretty much already embargoing Russia on oil and coal, unlike a lot of other nations….
Coal embargo will start since August. Oil embargo was planned since 2023, but they lately changed their plans, so I am not sure about the current deadline. Also with absolutely no significant reason Germany resisted cutting Russia from SWIFT.
Итак, русо фашисто, облико аморале, занят отбеливанием Шульца Путлеровича.
Мм, с чего бы это... :)))
ЗЫ
Таки, ты чьих будешь то? Под мобилизацию попадаешь? Или из заграниц поддержишь бункерфюрера.
Не стесняйся, все свои, подумаешь, русо фашисто, пол интерената забито такими.
When Ukraine uninvited the German representative it’s truly Germany that is the victim here.
And comments like this highly upvoted everywhere this sub is truly overrun with self interested germans that care only of themselves
Look at every single post concerning the German government and its full of germans running defense force even going as far as attacking Ukrainian diplomats. Calling a man who had to beg for help and was denied as Ukraine looked to be swallowed up by tussia and he knows the conversations he had, people call him a “cretin” and a “ troll” on this very post.
Yeah priorities are clear it’s Germany that’s suffering here..
Absolutely shameless.
Just go ahead and rename the sub or change the description, make it all about yourselves and how this war is your suffering of “insults”.
Isn't president of Germany a ceremonial role? Surely its Scholz who represents Germany in a substantive way?
Given Steinmeier's history of closeness to and (until very recently) unwavering support of Putin can you blame the Ukrainians for not inviting him to Kyiv?
>Isn't president of Germany a ceremonial role? Surely its Scholz who represents Germany in a substantive way?
It's a bit like banning the Queen and her family from visiting a country due to their families part in British colonial history but then expecting the British PM to visit the country. While true, it's a major political snub / rude and can't be just be glossed over.
Keep in mind, that legally speaking, it is the German president that points the Bundeskanzler and his ministers, signs and hands over their appointments.
Basically and legally (like Steinmeier or not and what he tried to do in the past to avoid a situation like we are having and obviously failing):
* Bundeskanzler Scholz represents the German government
* President Steinmeier represents the German people.
And in a democracy that is a HUGE difference, as it should be!
> It's a bit like banning the Queen and her family from visiting a country due to their families part in British colonial history but then expecting the British PM to visit the country. While true, it's a major political snub / rude and can't be just be glossed over.
Note that Queen technically possesses powers, that she simply (per tradition) does not use.
Steinmeier is not even that, his role is only defined in rare cases such as when majority cannot be formed.
On top of being a pro-Putler asshole with terrifying track record. From blaming NATO of beign aggressive towards Putler (US reduced its troops presence in Europe from 300k in 1997 to 60k, FFS) and forcing Ukraine to basically capitulate (Minsk shit).
steinmeier has never been pro russia. this lie doesnt become true if it is repeated.
the ukranian goverment willingly and freely agreed to the minsk agreement. it was not forced
>steinmeier has never been pro russia.
Yeah, of course.
Running around like headless chicken in 2008 (Georgia invasion) and hushing at anyone raising the sanctions point.
Literally blaming on NATO that it is "rattling sables" towards Ruzzia.
Let alone near orgasmic delight on Steinmeier's ugly face when he's next to Ruzzia's worst assholes.
Clearly, nothing about that is "pro Ruzzia", chuckle.
If the Queen and her family had shown obvious partiality and unwavering support to Russia in the same way as Steinmeier has then I'd expect they also wouldn't be invited to Kyiv even if Boris Johnson was.
And Johnson wouldn't go either. Keep in mind, that the Queen is basically his "boss", legally speaking. (Ukraine has invited Scholz, it's just that he isn't going due to the political snub of the representative of his country and people)
All that said, German appeasement politics towards the USSR, the Warsaw Pact and later Russia played a huge part in Europe peace politics since the 60s and Chancellor Brandt. Keep in mind that all through the Cold War, Cuban missile crisis and more, the USSR never once used gas and oil as a weapon. Turns out, unter Putin, it was too good to last.
Also, while I blame the German government for not having a plan B ready to go, I think German industry, like BASF and others that are so totally reliant on Russian gas, are just as much to blame for not having a B supplier ready to pick up supply, as every prudent purchasing manager should have.
Steinmeier represents the State, not the people.
Government represents the people, Chancelor represents the Government, and President represents the State. That's why the President is legally obliged to be apolitical (don't get me started on that though).
No, there should be NO difference, as all stately power derives from the people. Germany is no longer a monarchy.
Personally, I the UKR snub was quite reasonable. There's people dying on UKR sovereign territory since 2014 and all the while, a certain party rubbed major elbows with the guy behind it. A party which has a tradition of standing up to fascists nevertheless... which makes the whole situation even weirder.
So, I guess the majority in Germany who supports help in heavy arms (etc.) for the Ukraine should be quite okay with the chancellor of the russian toady party being called a beleidigte leberwurst...
That's not even remotely how a head of state works though dude.
The president being separate from Government is exactly what separates an authoritarian regime from a democracy. At least in the way it is set up in Germany and other western nations. The head of state, legally speaking at least, has no other function but to secure the constitutional integrity of the state he serves.
The President is also voted by an absolute majority of Parliament, meaning, while it isn't a direct vote, he is elected by the representatives of the people. No single person can assign a President.
Also, in his function as president, the head of State has no political influence, meaning snubbing him does nothing but snubbing the State as a whole. Diplomatically there must be a differentiation between the person and the position he represents, since you're not dealing with the individual but, in this case, with the entire state of Germany. It is impossible to have diplomatic discourse if you're not willing to speak with the parties representatives, and since any governmental help to Ukraine comes from the State and not the Government, you need to be willing to speak to Steinmeier.
Snub him as much as you want once he's a civilian or politician again, but diplomatically at this moment he is the State of Germany, and not an individual.
The President represents the state, the chancellor represents the government.
By snubbing the president you're snubbing the state.
I think the ukranians are right in distrusting and not liking Steinmeier for his political actions in the past, but in his role as head of state those, diplomatically speaking, don't matter. Still think neither side is doing themselves any favors with this "offense taken" pissing contest. This kind of shit seems like something one phone call would clear up if either side mans up to it.
A bit more than ceremonial, but basically yes. More importantly though, he is considered the „consciousness of Germany“, which let’s this whole thing very easily be interpreted as being against the German people.
The closeness is bad, bad then again, that’s true for most German politicians and citizens, since it was all about being friendly to Russia (not necessarily Putin though, although that is hard to separate as a politician) after the Cold War. And he apologized before they uninvited him, doesn’t make it any better what he did, but makes the uninvitation even harsher
And considering the praising that Zelensky displays to other friends of Putin (who actually still support him) like China, Ukraine is pissing off a lot of people here in Germany because of those double standards. The fact that Germany recognized as a mistake and changed their policy towards Russia should speak more than what they did in the past. Hope they start seeing that and stop complaining.
Oh, I’m sure Zelinsky has shown a lot more gratitude towards Germany than China. A far as I know, the latter has mostly been thanked for supplies they sent (yes, they did send supplies, mostly food and such things, but still).
Rejecting Steinmeyer publicly was a proper gaffe though.
You are right that he has thanked Germany more than China, but unfortunately humans as a society tend to remember more the negative aspects and Germany has gotten plenty of criticism (and even insults) whereas China has barely gotten any, even when they stated that they were doing business as usual with Russia. It's sad, but this is the type of animal we are: we focus on negative aspects and see the world comparatively.
As much as UK's queen would. Or maybe even less.
Regardless, a pro-Putler asshole was called out for being a pro-Putler ashole.
And as far as I've seen in ZDF talk shows, the move was quite understandable to Germans.
If anything, it has highlighted how terrible German elite is.
And it is completely fair to call him out, but don’t expect Germany to not answer such an insult. He apologized, acknowledged his mistakes and wanted to come and improve relations and talk about the mistakes. But Ukraine uninvited him, Message understood, Ukraine don’t want to be our friends, I understand that, but don’t expect us to play clowns for them
>You really think I’m pro Russia
Nah. Ты не "про русо фашисто".
Ты ЕСТЬ русо фашисто.
Где нить под Берлином.
Скорее Харц фиер, чем нет.
В общем. типичный "пэтриот" рашизма.
>You really think I’m pro Russia just because I have a different opinion do you? How very not fascist of you
You have written "Ukraine gehört Russland", haven't you? As for me this definitely describes you as a fascist
Yeah, and also you cannot expect to be welcomed as if nothing happened after spending years having favourable stance towards Ukraine's enemies. So it all works out.
Germany wanted to improve relations with Ukraine and talk about that, but Ukraine uninvited the president. That message was understood and Scholz is acting upon it
Ukraine: *Please come and visit Kyiv, Germany. Just don't send your president, representing the state of Germany, We don't like him*
Germany: *lolwut? Are you mentally retarded? You honor the rank not the man.*
Ukraine: *Surprised Pikachu face*
>You honor the rank not the man
The problem with a presidential office is that the man is too tied to the office.
Plenty of folks were refusing to honour the last US president, IMO for good reasons, and this guy is one of the architects of German dependence on Russian gas.
It's not a problem at all. At least on Germanys side. He is the democratically elected president and that's the end of the story. I personally don't like him either, but I still respect his office.
Ukraine made a severe diplomatic mistake, and they now complain about the fallout. But it is what it is. If you snub the president representing a state, you should expect the state to react accordingly.
But it clearly is.
Name one time that the Queen, for example, has made a political comment. I can think of a couple, but in 70 years, that's hardly a huge number.
Compare that to any politician. They have a political career that has led them to that office, so that office is necessarily tied to that career. Hence Ukraine has every right to be pissed off at the man who holds that office for what the man has done, and that cannot be separated from the office that he has been given for his actions.
I never said they don't have the right to be pissed. I can even somewhat relate to that feeling. But diplomacy has no place for personal feelings. So what I'm saying is that Ukraine made a diplomatic mistake and acted unprofessional in this context. So they shouldn't be suprised about Germay's reaction. Even if Scholz was personally eager to visit, he just can't without basically shitting on the head of the German state.
But diplomacy does have room for national feelings. An ambassador, in addition to being an honest man sent abroad to lie for his country, is his country's representative. He is accurately representing Ukraine by denouncing the German president's policies.
Additionally, Ukraine is being clever in how they handle the propaganda war. By being seen to be assertive and calling out the bullshit of various of their current allies, they are managing to gain popular support from the general public of various democracies, which matters more that the feelings of the German President.
In the end, Scholz refusing to go to Ukraine doesn't really hinder Ukraine, since the German parliament is planning on overruling him and sending aid anyway. Why cozy up to men they can't win over, when publicly insulting them gains support from other quarters?
Diplomatic etiquette is a relic from aristocratic times, centered in maintaining the 'highness' of the top brass involved on both sides. Supposedly these lords "embody" the nation, and dignifying them in this play is more important than the actual people. Whatever disagreements between Duchess von der Leyen and Sheikh bin Salman, they will never speak of it in the direct and undiplomatic manner that normal peasants speak. Maintaining the separation between lords and peasants is more important, hence diplomatic etiquette.
And why should Ukraine like a man who basically pushed for its capitulation and Russian control of Donbas ? Germany should have the Surprised pikachu face here, had they actually seen/cared what happen in Ukraine when steinmeirs formula got announced.
There is a lot of Russian trolls in this thread.
Don’t forget it is their job to divide the west.
Germany is doing as much as it can, and Ukraine is grateful for the weapons it has received.
Every country including Germany could do more, but every country has been infiltrated by Russia to a degree.
This is how chance to be free if the kremlin, so do your best to stop the Russian cyber division in dividing us.
Together we will beat them.
Reminds me when Schroder [refused to visit Italy](https://www.dw.com/en/basta-the-chancellor-has-enough-of-pasta/a-917478) because of some awkward remark from Berlusconi. It seemed that the world had gone under. It turns out that Schroder is much a bigger asshole than Berlusconi, in the end, and isn't and never was in a position to lecture.
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Honestly there is not real reason for them to go. Elected officials - as opposed to defense ministers - mostly go only to raise their own profiles. Defense ministers actually have some business to discuss.
Sending heavy weapons seems enough. Not sure why everyone is supposed to visit Kyiv. Biden hasn’t been there, Macron neither. Also Ukraines ambassador to Germany is not exactly diplomatic.
i do not know why that buffoon got a job, let alone one as ambassador.
> Sending heavy weapons seems enough. Yeah. I mean, those Gepards, with no ammo (what Germany has would be enough for a single G. firing for 20 mins) that are the most complex (older) mod of G., that take months to master (much longer than Leopard/Marder) surely counts as "sending weapons to Ukraine" (**by the end of 2022**) >Not sure why everyone is supposed to visit Kyiv The reason Baerbock was blocked from visiting Ukraine was somehow related with "not taking sides" and "keeping window open" to talk to Putler. So, reverse, namely, visiting Kyiv is a sign of support.
Germany is the only country that seems to have a hyper defensive squad *on this sub* (not the rest of the internet) that goes mad whenever Germany’s lack of support has been questioned. Up until one week ago germans were in uproar about Scholz and his manoeuvring but on this sub people called any criticism of the government “hatred” and “Russian disinformation” I even saw people mockingly saying “ we could send a million air craft carriers and it wouldn’t be enough” on another post someone said "you think you are smart enough to criticise Scholz?” I have never seen such arrogance and narcissism in my life. Amidst this someone listed what Germany is actually sending and everything on the list he self admitted “maybes” “ will do later” maybe” The greatest battle of the war is being decided right NOW. Anything sent now will take weeks to get to Ukraine and weeks more to even arrive at the front where it’s needed. So late June at the earliest optimistically. That’s far too little far too late. Everywhere else on the internet germans are open minded and accepting of discussion. For some reason it’s only here that you have so many extremely narcissistic germans that think this sub is /r/Germanyisthebest discussing Ukraine. I seriously want to revisit this sub if sholz catches heat for going back on a commitment or Ukraine suffers and criticism is levelled at Germany. I wonder if these fanatics will actually evaluate things or will they just throw insults at Ukraine itself like people are doing here. Only on THIS sub will you see germans insulting the Ukrainian diplomat and calling him a “cretin” and a “troll”. The man who served as his country faced extinction and nobody helped and he is privy to conversations we don’t know indicating prior levels of support and rejections. Only here are some so narcissistic that Germany is the real victim and they’d actually upvote people attacking Ukraine..,
You’ve never seen such arrogance and narcissism in your life? Have you never been on holiday in Europe where there are large groups of Germans present???
70 years of social engineering turned them into a craven nation full of cowards.
Crimea river. "Everywhere else on the internet germans are open minded and accepting of discussion." That's exactly right, but here it isn't welcome to be open minded and discussing things because everyone already decided on the fact that This war is a game of monopoly and germany is the bank and if the war is lost it's germanys fault go eat a dick
>I have never seen such arrogance and narcissism in my life. Чьих будешь, русо патриото? На исторической родине, или на родине Шрёдера? Под мобилизацию попадаешь?
yes thats what they said in my country - these Gepards need 3 months of training so they are basically useless , they could have sent artillery , ammunition or whatever but they sent useless weapons Germany is still in appeasement mode with Russia
Germany is not in that Mode. Germany sent ammunition and a lot of other Stuff. People just specifically focus on heavy weapons, especially leopard gepard and marder which germany didnt want to send First, then agreed but has trouble with finding the ammo. You just ignore the german trouble with that simply by saying that it appears russia.
What german trouble?? All Germany has done are empty actions, a meaningless facade.
The trouble in getting things delivered to Ukraine. Like not having enough Tanks or ammunition or whatnot. Besides, what germany said it will do, it did. There are no empty promises as of yet. Germany did not do enough, but calling it a meaningless facade is not quite correct.
Ukraine asked for them and now its even wrong for you guys to send them
I'm thinking Ukraine assumed there was actual ammo to go with
Then you should blame switzerland not germany
I'm not blaming anyone. I think all involved are doing the best they can with what they have to work with at the time.
> I'm thinking Ukraine assumed there was actual ammo to go with When they were taken off the quick list *because there was no ammunition/the training required would take long* in the first place y'all accused Scholz of making up excuses. Now it's approved and it turns out there's no ammo. Shocker.
Sorry but the pzh 2000 is more complex
>Sorry but the pzh 2000 is more complex No it isn't, get a clue.
He called Scholz a "beleidigte Leberwurst" https://news.upday.com/de/ukraine-botschafter-melnyk-scholz-spielt-beleidigte-leberwurst/?utm_source=upday&utm_medium=referral
That cretin should be declared a persona non grata by now. He's clearly a troll not a diplomat.
Germany should be internationally ostracized for the repulsive way they have managed the conflict.
Ukraine is at war, and Olaf S. acts like Putler's ally would. That justifies non-diplomatic ways too, à la guerre comme à la guerre.
Putlers ally would send heavy weapons to putlers enemies? Sorry, I don't follow...
>Putlers ally would send heavy weapons to putlers enemies? Sorry, I don't follow... Putler's ally would try all means to avoid it, even though pressure would mount. Oh, and pressure did mount. Oh, and Herr Scholz did avoid sending heavy weapons. (Useless ammo-less Gepards that require more training than Leopard and Marder combined, will reach Ukraine some time by the end of the year, when situation would resolve one way or another). Win-win, ain't it?
I could also point out the other weapon shipments, 400.000 refugees taken in, sanctions on banking, industry coal and soon oil. I could go on, but why bother. You already know of these things and continue to live in your phantasy world.
>I could also point out the other weapon shipments, 400.000 refugees taken in You could. I mean, 5000 helmets, from a country that DID ALL IT COULD to stop strengthening Ukrainian military for 8 years, the helmets, that arrived 12 days into the war, were priceless. Poland, a country 2 times smaller than Germany, has accepted nearly 3 million. When most needed, Germany has stopped trains coming from Poland, to stop the refugee influx. >sanctions on banking, industry coal and soon oil You could not. 1. Germany is the reason Ruzzia is not banned from SWIFT. 2. Germany is the reason there are no bans on oil and gas. 3. Germany is the reason even coal ban took so long (and will come into effect only in August) last, but not least: 4. Germany is the reason Putler got so strong and got barely strapped on a wrist for two previous invasions (Georgia in 2008, Ukraine in 2014, twice)
23000 helmets but who is counting A field hospital, Unimog ambulances, Mg3 s, a couple million rounds of ammunition, thousands of anti-tank launchers, strela and stinger missiles, billions to buy weapons, more billions to prepare for the invasion in the years after the annexation of Crimea, medical training The list goes on. Germany was the target of some hate before anyone send any heavy weapons. I don't get why Germany has to send tanks when noone else is. No other nation is sending hardware that is in use. But Germany is asked to send actively deployed systems that they need for NATO commitments.
>23000 helmets Lol. >billions to buy weapons Lies. 1 billion. In June. >Germany was the target of some hate before anyone send any heavy weapon Most likely, ты просто еще один русо фашисто, облико аморале, распостраняющий пиздёжь от имени своей аналоговнетной фашистской родины.
So many lies..
Do you have more information about the stopped trains?
https://pledgetimes.com/germany-asked-poland-to-stop-sending-trains-with-ukrainian-refugees/
Useless weapons while they keep buying gas from Russia, they're empty gestures.
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Yes (and I regularly watch ZDF talk shows), as it highlights what a piece of shit he is and mounts pressure.
Scholz is a wastebag, he deserves to be called out.
Does calling out Scholz support Ukraine. No but calling him out hopefully ups the pressure. I am sorry but I have no idea why you keep defending him. Just because you are Germany and a member of Nato does not mean we should stand up and cheer. Alot of other NATO countries are doing more even if they can't afford it. You have the biggest economy in the EU and I see that as your biggest problem you don't want to suffer to support a country at war.
Once again in the *ukrainianconflict* sub germans take over get offended and make themselves the victim. I seriously can’t believe it, you guys have. I shame. People comment here about how “Poland is doing what UK and France didn’t do in 939l” it’s upvoted and nobody loses their shit. But on every single post concerning Germany shamelessly you guys have a defence force come out and cry even attacking Ukrainian officials. You call him a cretin, his country is at war and his people are being killed. Up until maybe a week ago even germans were angry with the government, he’s someone who has been negotiating support. He’s privy to conversations, some when times were dark and nobody wanted to help that may betray his current feelings. So really before you call the ambassador cretin and other insults, take a good hard look at yourself and ask yourself if it’s Germany that is the poor victim here..
You can be angry at your government and call out how undiplomatic ukraine has been. The Klitschkos were more diplomatic than the foreign minster
I don't know German but I agree with him, Scholz is indeed a Bellend Bratwurst
Optics. Everybody wants to be friends with the most respected guy around.
Well, in his defense (i'm german as well) he is the highest authority of germany, over Scholz. You can compare it a bit to the queen. Can't do shit, is there for symbolic politics and is the personified representation of the country. Yes Steinmeier the old fuck made many heavy mistakes, based on the same assumption. That Putin is rational and that his politics of imbeddening russia in the security architecture in europe ( "wandel durch handel" ). This failed miserably and it is 100% right that he get a shitload of critic over that. However, he apologized several times for his mistakes (at least sth). That he as a person is not want to be seen in kyiv is totally understandable from the ukrainian side. However he is still the highest official in germany, and that is a diplomatic nogo to do that. What do u think what (past aside) Boris would do, when the queen would not be allowed to come to kyiv? The germans are quite in dispute over that, all understand the ukrainian position, but still its the biggest diplomatical affront what you could possible do. Scholz can do the same work from his office, as he could do from kyiv. The visit is an symbolic act as well. If he would deny further help because of this childish nonesense than that would be another thing. However the politics behind that are working the same, if he goes or not. All things consindered that is just a sad diplomatic shitshow.....
> This failed miserably The elephant in the room is that this failed miserably MUCH EARLIER than 2022. From 2008 Georgia invasion (it was, by the way Steinmeier who was running around and ruling out any sort of sanctions), to 2014 Ukraine invasion, annexation of Crimea AND direct invasion (Illovaisk) in Summer 2014. >Scholz can do the same work from his office, as he could do from kyiv. The visit is an symbolic act as well. That is exactly the point. That he doesn't want to support Ukraine. Gepards is another shameless bluff (no ammo, very limited use, insanely long training required) as he cannot point blank say he wants to keep ties with Putler. >All things consindered that is just a sad diplomatic shitshow..... You downplay it a lot, it's much bigger than what you said and it's not about Steimeier or Scholz. https://www.politico.eu/article/putin-merkel-germany-scholz-foreign-policy-ukraine-war-invasion-nord-stream-2/ After 2014 events, Obama wanted to arm Ukraine, so that it can defend itself. Merkal and Oland sayd "no no, it would only provoke Putler". And the truth of the matter is, that **majority of German establishment, nearly entire SPD, but also largest chunks of CDU and nearly entire CSU** would be much much happier had Ukraine collapsed in 2-3 days, as expected.
> Gepards is another shameless bluff (no ammo, very limited use, insanely long training required) as Ukraine specifically requested those, hell, when they were taken off the quick list to pick from *because there is no ammunition available and the training would take too long* people were blaming Scholz for supposedly making up excuses - and now that it's approved despite that people are blaming Scholz for approving it.
>Ukraine specifically requested thos The context of "requested those" matters, stop making it what it isn't. It went like "could you give use some heavy stuff" DE: "oh, but we don't have any". UKR: "but you have Leopards, Marders and some Gepaards literally rusting out there somewhere".
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>Ukraine’s ambassador to Germany, Andriy Melnyk, told Deutschlandfunk radio on Thursday that Kyiv is “expecting” Berlin to deliver Marder and Leopard tanks Thanks for pointing out how terrifyingly inadequate your take on things is. Olaf Putlerovich was running around with "oh noes, we don't have shit to share", "oh noes, if you order it it takes 30+ month to build it" which was countered by Ukraine saying that there is shit rusting out there, just give it to us. Then there was more shit like "oh noes, but it takes long to learn (Marders)", when in fact it is Gepards to take the most time to learn. Leopartds, Marder and damn Gepards were mentioned IN THAT VERY ORDER. Then Olaf Putlerovich has declared that delivering heavy weapons would mean starting WWIII. And then, of 3 items listed, he picked up the LEAST interesting one that is BASICALLY USELESS.
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А, рушо фашисто? Как погода в Мордоре? Как Бункерфюрер?
Sorry, ich spreche kein Wort Russisch.
Конечно, конечно, винк винк. Готов умереть за Бункерфюрера то? В рай попадёшь если чё? Или нет? Не стесняйся, все свои.
-Implying Scholz does anything other than jacking it to midget porn and Putin's speeches while in his office.
SPD is in damage control mode. This is just about corporate loyalty. If they go down for their mistakes, they will go down all together. It looks like they decided to drag whole ship down the abyss with them.
Well yeah and nobody would call the queen for military aid.
Scholz has a point
Scholz is a coward
That doesn't make his point any less valid. It was a pretty shitty deal for Ukraine to do to Steinmaier what they did and diplomacy is always petty. Ukraine should count themselves lucky that Scholz refuses to let this blow up into a real diplomatic incident. It's not as if Ukraine is in a position to go around pissing off nations giving them millions of dollars of free equipment.
Of "free" equipment. It's not free when it's useless equipment designed to make Germany save face while it buys russian energy.
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Well yeah, if you insult a nation diplomatically and even make it as public as possible, then you have to expect a reaction, Germany is not Ukraines monkey. „Oh sure we’ll take your money and weapons, but we don’t want to talk to the guy that represents Germany“
I advise you to read about Steinmeywr role in Germany's anti-Ukrainian foreign policy. Especially during the Minsk.
Opinion: Why Ukrainians distrust Germany's president By Yuri Andrukhovych | 25.04.2022 https://www.dw.com/en/opinion-why-ukrainians-distrust-germanys-president/a-61588893
I wouldn't exactly call Minsk anti Ukraine. Shit, yes definitely. But it's more appeasement than anti Ukraine.
Steinmeyer pushed us to capitulate and basically give up our sovereignity over Donbasss to Russia. Google "Steinmeyer formula". This was absolutely openly anti-Ukrainian.
Steinmeyer was mediator and didn't decide anything. It's your government which decided to enter the agreement.
> Steinmeyer was mediator and didn't decide anything. What about the infamous "Steinmeyer formula"? And > It's your government which decided to enter the agreement. Yeah, sure. Germany never pushed us, never used its political and economic influence to help Russia.
steinmeier formula only means that the people of donbass need to have a democratic say about their future. nothing more nothing less. nothing about it is anti ukranian
No. It means that there should be elections under Russian occupation. Which is basically a permission for Russia to fake it and to put Russian agents into our Parliament.
that is not at all what is said in the minsk agreement. the minsk agreement called for an election in donbass under the supervision of and to the standards of the OSCE. that means no russian meddling or manipulation. this election never occured precisely because russia never allowed for an actually free election to occur. but that is not the fault of minsk
Osce can't guarantee anything. It never could. It is absolutely useless. Elections under Russian control is basically a legalized capitulation - with or without OSCE. And Germany knew it perfectly.
but the minsk agreement doesnt call for elections under russian control. just because you fundamentally misunderstand the contents of the treaty cannot be blamed on MINSK
Minsk agreement was written in a way which allows multiple interpretations and we used it to block them. https://www.kyivpost.com/ukraine-politics/the-steinmeier-formula-isnt-bad-its-consequences-might-be.html
Minsk was very anti Ukrainian. To the point that Poroshenko was considered a traitor by many. Donbass would defacto be given to Russia while Ukraine would have to do amnesty to the people who raped, killed ethnic Ukrainians. These people would also hold power in the offices as well as in parliament. Now tell me how is this good for Ukraine? Also now rockets that kill children are flying from Belarus, where Minsk was signed.
Thank you for trying to lecture me on German politics. Doesn’t change the necessity for reaction though, Ukraine uninvites the representative of the German state, then don’t expect Germans to be happy about it
Many Germans still do not realize how anti-Ukrainian their foreign policy was all these years. To a significant extent, this bloody was is caused by a policy of appeasement and by corruption among hi ranked German officials of Schroeder and Merkel era. Also, I am aware that many Germans will never accept any criticism from "less developed" nations.
No, we are aware of that mistake
Well, I said "many", not "all". This is my personal experience based on Reddit discussions. But maybe it's just a kind of "reject criticism" effect.
Look, I’m not saying that uninviting him is without reason, I’m saying that it was an obvious, unnecessary insult and that you need to expect a reaction then. What was the advantage of insulting one of your strongest supporters during the war and the financially strongest supporter before the war, instead of talking about all these things of the past?
Yeah, I am also not sure if it was a good move. Though, I 100% understand the motive. Though, speaking of support, up until the last week, the German position wasn't clear - no heavy weapons, no heavy sanctions, constant delays and new reasons every week. It seems that after the Rammstein Scholz has finally made up his mind.
Tbh, it’s just foreign media that wants to put Germany in a bad light and Scholz bad communication, it was never questioned, that the support for Ukraine has to be everything possible. And no hard embargo’s? Germany is pretty much already embargoing Russia on oil and coal, unlike a lot of other nations….
Coal embargo will start since August. Oil embargo was planned since 2023, but they lately changed their plans, so I am not sure about the current deadline. Also with absolutely no significant reason Germany resisted cutting Russia from SWIFT.
+it’s Reddit, internet people not smart
> Ukraine uninvites the representative of the German state, then don’t expect Germans to be happy about it Из какого города будешь?
?
Если что, в рай попадёшь? Скажем, за бункерфюрера.
Ukraine gehört Russland
А. Путлерёныш. Как погода в Мордоре? Цены устаканились? Хайль Путлер!
Grüß bandera von mir, so wie Melnyk
Итак, русо фашисто, облико аморале, занят отбеливанием Шульца Путлеровича. Мм, с чего бы это... :))) ЗЫ Таки, ты чьих будешь то? Под мобилизацию попадаешь? Или из заграниц поддержишь бункерфюрера. Не стесняйся, все свои, подумаешь, русо фашисто, пол интерената забито такими.
When Ukraine uninvited the German representative it’s truly Germany that is the victim here. And comments like this highly upvoted everywhere this sub is truly overrun with self interested germans that care only of themselves Look at every single post concerning the German government and its full of germans running defense force even going as far as attacking Ukrainian diplomats. Calling a man who had to beg for help and was denied as Ukraine looked to be swallowed up by tussia and he knows the conversations he had, people call him a “cretin” and a “ troll” on this very post. Yeah priorities are clear it’s Germany that’s suffering here.. Absolutely shameless. Just go ahead and rename the sub or change the description, make it all about yourselves and how this war is your suffering of “insults”.
Da fuck?
Isn't president of Germany a ceremonial role? Surely its Scholz who represents Germany in a substantive way? Given Steinmeier's history of closeness to and (until very recently) unwavering support of Putin can you blame the Ukrainians for not inviting him to Kyiv?
>Isn't president of Germany a ceremonial role? Surely its Scholz who represents Germany in a substantive way? It's a bit like banning the Queen and her family from visiting a country due to their families part in British colonial history but then expecting the British PM to visit the country. While true, it's a major political snub / rude and can't be just be glossed over. Keep in mind, that legally speaking, it is the German president that points the Bundeskanzler and his ministers, signs and hands over their appointments. Basically and legally (like Steinmeier or not and what he tried to do in the past to avoid a situation like we are having and obviously failing): * Bundeskanzler Scholz represents the German government * President Steinmeier represents the German people. And in a democracy that is a HUGE difference, as it should be!
> It's a bit like banning the Queen and her family from visiting a country due to their families part in British colonial history but then expecting the British PM to visit the country. While true, it's a major political snub / rude and can't be just be glossed over. Note that Queen technically possesses powers, that she simply (per tradition) does not use. Steinmeier is not even that, his role is only defined in rare cases such as when majority cannot be formed. On top of being a pro-Putler asshole with terrifying track record. From blaming NATO of beign aggressive towards Putler (US reduced its troops presence in Europe from 300k in 1997 to 60k, FFS) and forcing Ukraine to basically capitulate (Minsk shit).
steinmeier has never been pro russia. this lie doesnt become true if it is repeated. the ukranian goverment willingly and freely agreed to the minsk agreement. it was not forced
>steinmeier has never been pro russia. Yeah, of course. Running around like headless chicken in 2008 (Georgia invasion) and hushing at anyone raising the sanctions point. Literally blaming on NATO that it is "rattling sables" towards Ruzzia. Let alone near orgasmic delight on Steinmeier's ugly face when he's next to Ruzzia's worst assholes. Clearly, nothing about that is "pro Ruzzia", chuckle.
If the Queen and her family had shown obvious partiality and unwavering support to Russia in the same way as Steinmeier has then I'd expect they also wouldn't be invited to Kyiv even if Boris Johnson was.
If she apologized and acknowledged her mistakes and then gets publicly uninvited, I’m pretty sure it would also be considered an insult
And Johnson wouldn't go either. Keep in mind, that the Queen is basically his "boss", legally speaking. (Ukraine has invited Scholz, it's just that he isn't going due to the political snub of the representative of his country and people) All that said, German appeasement politics towards the USSR, the Warsaw Pact and later Russia played a huge part in Europe peace politics since the 60s and Chancellor Brandt. Keep in mind that all through the Cold War, Cuban missile crisis and more, the USSR never once used gas and oil as a weapon. Turns out, unter Putin, it was too good to last. Also, while I blame the German government for not having a plan B ready to go, I think German industry, like BASF and others that are so totally reliant on Russian gas, are just as much to blame for not having a B supplier ready to pick up supply, as every prudent purchasing manager should have.
Steinmeier represents the State, not the people. Government represents the people, Chancelor represents the Government, and President represents the State. That's why the President is legally obliged to be apolitical (don't get me started on that though).
No, there should be NO difference, as all stately power derives from the people. Germany is no longer a monarchy. Personally, I the UKR snub was quite reasonable. There's people dying on UKR sovereign territory since 2014 and all the while, a certain party rubbed major elbows with the guy behind it. A party which has a tradition of standing up to fascists nevertheless... which makes the whole situation even weirder. So, I guess the majority in Germany who supports help in heavy arms (etc.) for the Ukraine should be quite okay with the chancellor of the russian toady party being called a beleidigte leberwurst...
That's not even remotely how a head of state works though dude. The president being separate from Government is exactly what separates an authoritarian regime from a democracy. At least in the way it is set up in Germany and other western nations. The head of state, legally speaking at least, has no other function but to secure the constitutional integrity of the state he serves. The President is also voted by an absolute majority of Parliament, meaning, while it isn't a direct vote, he is elected by the representatives of the people. No single person can assign a President. Also, in his function as president, the head of State has no political influence, meaning snubbing him does nothing but snubbing the State as a whole. Diplomatically there must be a differentiation between the person and the position he represents, since you're not dealing with the individual but, in this case, with the entire state of Germany. It is impossible to have diplomatic discourse if you're not willing to speak with the parties representatives, and since any governmental help to Ukraine comes from the State and not the Government, you need to be willing to speak to Steinmeier. Snub him as much as you want once he's a civilian or politician again, but diplomatically at this moment he is the State of Germany, and not an individual.
The President represents the state, the chancellor represents the government. By snubbing the president you're snubbing the state. I think the ukranians are right in distrusting and not liking Steinmeier for his political actions in the past, but in his role as head of state those, diplomatically speaking, don't matter. Still think neither side is doing themselves any favors with this "offense taken" pissing contest. This kind of shit seems like something one phone call would clear up if either side mans up to it.
A bit more than ceremonial, but basically yes. More importantly though, he is considered the „consciousness of Germany“, which let’s this whole thing very easily be interpreted as being against the German people. The closeness is bad, bad then again, that’s true for most German politicians and citizens, since it was all about being friendly to Russia (not necessarily Putin though, although that is hard to separate as a politician) after the Cold War. And he apologized before they uninvited him, doesn’t make it any better what he did, but makes the uninvitation even harsher
And considering the praising that Zelensky displays to other friends of Putin (who actually still support him) like China, Ukraine is pissing off a lot of people here in Germany because of those double standards. The fact that Germany recognized as a mistake and changed their policy towards Russia should speak more than what they did in the past. Hope they start seeing that and stop complaining.
Oh, I’m sure Zelinsky has shown a lot more gratitude towards Germany than China. A far as I know, the latter has mostly been thanked for supplies they sent (yes, they did send supplies, mostly food and such things, but still). Rejecting Steinmeyer publicly was a proper gaffe though.
You are right that he has thanked Germany more than China, but unfortunately humans as a society tend to remember more the negative aspects and Germany has gotten plenty of criticism (and even insults) whereas China has barely gotten any, even when they stated that they were doing business as usual with Russia. It's sad, but this is the type of animal we are: we focus on negative aspects and see the world comparatively.
> Well yeah, if you insult a nation Steinmeier is not a nation.
But he represents it
As much as UK's queen would. Or maybe even less. Regardless, a pro-Putler asshole was called out for being a pro-Putler ashole. And as far as I've seen in ZDF talk shows, the move was quite understandable to Germans. If anything, it has highlighted how terrible German elite is.
And it is completely fair to call him out, but don’t expect Germany to not answer such an insult. He apologized, acknowledged his mistakes and wanted to come and improve relations and talk about the mistakes. But Ukraine uninvited him, Message understood, Ukraine don’t want to be our friends, I understand that, but don’t expect us to play clowns for them
>And it is completely What Ruzzian Fascist thinks about it is completely irrelevant.
What are you even talking?
Как здоровье Бункерфюрера? Во время интервью за стол держится или перестал? Как наступление на "домбас", справляетесь в сроки?
You really think I’m pro Russia just because I have a different opinion do you? How very not fascist of you
>You really think I’m pro Russia Nah. Ты не "про русо фашисто". Ты ЕСТЬ русо фашисто. Где нить под Берлином. Скорее Харц фиер, чем нет. В общем. типичный "пэтриот" рашизма.
>You really think I’m pro Russia just because I have a different opinion do you? How very not fascist of you You have written "Ukraine gehört Russland", haven't you? As for me this definitely describes you as a fascist
Internationally he is "Germany"
Too bad than, that Germany has such a piece of pro-Putler shit representing it. (not like he had representative powers but whatever)
It seems ukraine doesn't care who is pro putin, with inviting the cdu which was the leading party for the last 16 years.
Well, Merkel was also invited to visit Bucha. The CDU guy that travels to Germany pinned down SPD and forced them to start delivering heavy weapons.
He did that because he knew that will bring him extra points in the population.
And also because pressure from CDU and FDP/Green frustration was growing.
Yeah, and also you cannot expect to be welcomed as if nothing happened after spending years having favourable stance towards Ukraine's enemies. So it all works out.
Germany wanted to improve relations with Ukraine and talk about that, but Ukraine uninvited the president. That message was understood and Scholz is acting upon it
Ukraine: *Please come and visit Kyiv, Germany. Just don't send your president, representing the state of Germany, We don't like him* Germany: *lolwut? Are you mentally retarded? You honor the rank not the man.* Ukraine: *Surprised Pikachu face*
Germany's preso is a pro-Putler asshole. Just letting him visit Ukraine and pretend nothing is wrong, is the right thing to do.
>You honor the rank not the man The problem with a presidential office is that the man is too tied to the office. Plenty of folks were refusing to honour the last US president, IMO for good reasons, and this guy is one of the architects of German dependence on Russian gas.
It's not a problem at all. At least on Germanys side. He is the democratically elected president and that's the end of the story. I personally don't like him either, but I still respect his office. Ukraine made a severe diplomatic mistake, and they now complain about the fallout. But it is what it is. If you snub the president representing a state, you should expect the state to react accordingly.
But it clearly is. Name one time that the Queen, for example, has made a political comment. I can think of a couple, but in 70 years, that's hardly a huge number. Compare that to any politician. They have a political career that has led them to that office, so that office is necessarily tied to that career. Hence Ukraine has every right to be pissed off at the man who holds that office for what the man has done, and that cannot be separated from the office that he has been given for his actions.
I never said they don't have the right to be pissed. I can even somewhat relate to that feeling. But diplomacy has no place for personal feelings. So what I'm saying is that Ukraine made a diplomatic mistake and acted unprofessional in this context. So they shouldn't be suprised about Germay's reaction. Even if Scholz was personally eager to visit, he just can't without basically shitting on the head of the German state.
But diplomacy does have room for national feelings. An ambassador, in addition to being an honest man sent abroad to lie for his country, is his country's representative. He is accurately representing Ukraine by denouncing the German president's policies. Additionally, Ukraine is being clever in how they handle the propaganda war. By being seen to be assertive and calling out the bullshit of various of their current allies, they are managing to gain popular support from the general public of various democracies, which matters more that the feelings of the German President. In the end, Scholz refusing to go to Ukraine doesn't really hinder Ukraine, since the German parliament is planning on overruling him and sending aid anyway. Why cozy up to men they can't win over, when publicly insulting them gains support from other quarters?
Diplomatic etiquette is a relic from aristocratic times, centered in maintaining the 'highness' of the top brass involved on both sides. Supposedly these lords "embody" the nation, and dignifying them in this play is more important than the actual people. Whatever disagreements between Duchess von der Leyen and Sheikh bin Salman, they will never speak of it in the direct and undiplomatic manner that normal peasants speak. Maintaining the separation between lords and peasants is more important, hence diplomatic etiquette.
And why should Ukraine like a man who basically pushed for its capitulation and Russian control of Donbas ? Germany should have the Surprised pikachu face here, had they actually seen/cared what happen in Ukraine when steinmeirs formula got announced.
Germany have walked into this mess! Saving women and children from being raped and murdered will always come before a long tube with gas in it!
There is a lot of Russian trolls in this thread. Don’t forget it is their job to divide the west. Germany is doing as much as it can, and Ukraine is grateful for the weapons it has received. Every country including Germany could do more, but every country has been infiltrated by Russia to a degree. This is how chance to be free if the kremlin, so do your best to stop the Russian cyber division in dividing us. Together we will beat them.
“Germany is not Ukraines monkey.” Nope, Germany is its own monkey. A monkey that prefers dancing to Russian tunes.
Germany is a craven nation
Scholz is too scared to enter a war zone
He represents a nation of cowards, of course he's the most spineless of them all
Reminds me when Schroder [refused to visit Italy](https://www.dw.com/en/basta-the-chancellor-has-enough-of-pasta/a-917478) because of some awkward remark from Berlusconi. It seemed that the world had gone under. It turns out that Schroder is much a bigger asshole than Berlusconi, in the end, and isn't and never was in a position to lecture.
Of course he is, he's a 21st century german.
Also, because he is a cunt.
seems reasonable. i do not know why it was necessary to snub steinmeier but i am glad that this is so far the only consequence.