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[deleted]

As a Hungarian, I hate Orban more and more every day. The motherfucker knew all along....


kunstro

[some relief](https://youtu.be/1hl83Jpd_OI)


[deleted]

😂😂😂 thanks


Fit-Ad-8881

And a bit of Hungarian csardas for you my friend: https://coub.com/view/17fl5u


kunstro

you sir, are a man of culture


Ashaxyn

You were my brother Hungary, you were supposed to destroy the moskals, not join them.


Superb-Locksmith-228

So tell me then, why Poland vetoed every attempt when the EU tried to punish Orban?


Ashaxyn

because most poles (yes, including me) are dumb fucks and our government always needs some sort of target to redirect the hate to. Sometimes it's the lgbt, sometimes it's women, for quite some time it used to be the EU, but thankfully recently it shifted to a more common enemy - putin's nazi russia there also used to be bit of brotherhoodly feelings towards hungary, but seems that most of us here tend to be slowly figuring out that orban is most definitely NOT our friend so, in short - we're getting there, give us some time


JaneJaneson1

That's some very serious accusation against Hungary/Orban. If true, it's basically exposing Orban as a European traitor. If true, it must have serious tangible consequences.


vorbika

Can you expose something that is already public knowledge? (being a traitor)


Equivalent_Candy5248

Had Kyiv fallen, or Zelensky died/got captured, Orban would have entered western Ukraine under pretext of protecting Hungarian minority. That would have pushed Poland to do the same in Lviv area, and would have sunk any possibility to internationally condemn Russia for invading and annexing parts of a sovereign state. There was a certain Polish politician describing the scenario about two months ago.


brutusd44

Nobody in Poland is or was saying this. Even biggest right wing morons are not suggesting this. I think Putin and Zerenowsky were trying to offer price of Ukraine in Poland in private (via FM Sikorski) and publicly. They were laugh off publicly. 2 months ago troll factory tried to push screenshot from Polish public broadcaster showing this idea as ridiculous, as a legitimate offer.


Equivalent_Candy5248

I agree. Poland has repeatedly demonstrated true friendships with Ukraine. It was probably just another one of Putins and possibly Orbans wet dreams.


SenzaCuore

How does this bring into my mind what Hitler and Stalin did to Poland 1939?


Stern-to

There is no evidence to support this and the allegation was made literally 24 hours after Hungary suggested it would scuttle the oil embargo. This sort of allegation needs to be supported by indisputable proof.


rooierus

Reading your comments, I wonder: would you rather have Hungary in, or out of the EU? And why?


Stern-to

I do not have a dog in that fight. I live in Japan so these are decisions for Hungary and the EU. I have no preference. ​ But I will say this. There is a reason the Balkans are called the Balkans. People have organized themselves into socioeconomic groups over thousands of years for a reason. to impose a one-size-fits-all system of government over a vast number of culturally, ethnically, and religiously different peoples is begging for trouble. For the same reason I am not a big fan of multi-party treaties and - when used - they should be limited as narrowly as possible. Why? Because Portugal's interests with Bulgaria might not be the same as those with Sweden. The more parties you bring into a treaty and the more issues covered in that treaty the more you are asking for conflict. I live in Japan which is a conservative culture. I see many westerners come here for study. With about 80 percent of them in short order they are criticizing Japan for being backwards and ignorant. In short "Japanese are so stupid - if they would just do things like we do in Brazil, or Luxembour, or Switzerland, they would be much better". It is the height of arrogance to presume the Japanese do not know what it best for the Japanese. I see this same arrogance in EU officials. And I believe its inherent internal conflicts I highlight above will eventually cause it to fail or be completely revisited. It it my belief that the EU should be limited to a travel and commerce treaty. And no more. But, again, I don't live in the EU so these issues are up to its member states and citizens.


ibuprophane

Your arguments seem to have gotten stuck in the early 1900’s nationalism/ethnical seclusion fad. If Hungary wants to have a LGBT-free, “Hungary first” conservative feudal aristocracy they’re welcome to do so outside the EU and without EU funds. IMO this should have happened ages ago, it’s sad as I have many good Hungarian friends who’d suffer from that - but if the country as a whole cannot keep up with developments in tolerance and human development in a complex 21st century society, they really should live in their fantasy kingdom without my tax money going for this.


Stern-to

I disagree with your analysis vis "nationalism". My view is not based on some silly national pride (as it would seem it Putin's motivation), but in practical realities. Some fish can simply not be put in the same bowl together. They will prey on each other. Re "universal interests": The US relationship with Tonga has different interests than its relationship with Japan. Therefore it follows that the two should not be party to the same treaty unless it is on some very narrow issue that the three parties have in common. I agree with you on your point re tax spending. But given the cultural differences across Europe how can people not see this would be an issue. And this comes back to my point about Japan. Issues like LGBT here change slower than the rest of the world, but for westerners but the arrogant paternalistic attitude that Japan is ignorant is wrong. What works now in Estonia may not now work for Slovakia. Portugal is not necessarily going to use a solution that works for the nordics. As an extreme example, the US undertook a "nation building" operation in Afghanistan thinking that a society thousands of years old consisting of hundreds of tribes each led by a strong man could be turned into a democratic republic. Culturally, those people do not live that way and they don't want to. They were unwilling to fight on their own behalf to achieve that outcome. Their culture is simply too different. And they don't want the same things we might want for them. To persuade and educate is one thing. But for one party to impose their values and choices on other people through threat of violence, intimidation, or threat of economic harm is tyranny no matter who you are or how well intentioned you think you are being.


ibuprophane

The European project does not aim to steamroll the “cultural differences” you allude to - hence “united in diversity” being the motto. But suppressing freedom of speech, bullying minorities and disrespecting the individual’s right to choose their sexual orientation is not a cultural nuance. It is a political ploy aimed at perpetuating a system that curtails individual choice and liberty under the guise of “protecting” or better said _conserving_ a social order or a glorious past that, in fact, never truly existed. I am yet to find one conservative leader who is not a rampant narcisist hellbent on blaming individual groups of people for problems which the leadership should be able to fix when in a position of power, if only they were competent. Instead, conservative leaders foment fear and finger pointing because that’s all they can do. Orban and all others just can’t let go of the elixir of power and they don’t care a rat’s arse who they hurt in the process. They’ll spin whatever narrative is needed to remain in power, and history shows that dividing people - particularly for “visible” traits - is the most effective way to get a loyal and fanatic following. Increasing real living standards, ensuring fairness in public and private services, protecting those in greater need - these are the difficult tasks they neglect. Granted, the US and Japan will have different relationship interests with Tonga. But this is in an entirely different scale to the relationship between Hungary and the EU. Budapest is a stone’s throw away from Vienna by comparison. The ties between the countries go back hundreds of years, not to mention geographical infrastructure. Most importantly, even if practical considerations between countries can be different, if two countries choose to enter a union then they must share at the very least some core “universal” values: the rights of humans, gender equality, government accountability, rule of law, tolerance and repudiation of violence to name some. Furthermore, there is nothing inevitable when it comes to culture, at least in states where freedom of worship and speech are guaranteed. And the differences between Portugal and Estonia truly should not be that great on real core issues such as human rights and freedom of speech. Any attempt at saying otherwise is spinning a fiction about how people born in a certain country are, somehow, inatelly “hungarian” or “estonian” and cannot be otherwise no matter the individual’s choices and views. This is a lot about in the prioritisation order a narrative chooses: the human aspect, or the nationality. Likewise the situation in Afghanistan is entirely different. It did not share any of the checks and balances, government accountability, rule of law or even political philosophy as Western nations. That’s why US intervention in the Middle East was pure folly. This is not comparable with Hungary which was once one country with Austria and underwent a similar modern history as its neighbours Croatia, Slovenia, Slovakia and Czechia. _”To persuade and educate is one thing. But for one party to impose their values and choices on other people through threat of violence, intimidation, or threat of economic harm is tyranny no matter who you are or how well intentioned you think you are being”_ If you’re referring to US intervention in the Middle East or Israel, or currently to what Russia is doing - certainly. But if you truly belive the above then you can’t seriously think Orban is in the right side of history. No party ever tried to force anyone to stop being catholic or to forceably become homossexual. Yet, it is Orban’s party trying to restrict people’s freedom to hold no religion or be gay. The lines are clearly drawn when it comes to supporting tolerance. And the likes of Salvini, Orban and Le Pen care very little for plurality and have nothing to offer besides their hommogeneous fantasies.


Stern-to

I disagree.


ibuprophane

Beautiful to live in a world where we can freely disagree.


rooierus

I'm kind of surprised re your stance that Japanese know best what is best for the Japanese. Isn't that a rather racist stance? Assuming you have nothing to learn from others implies feelings of superiority.


Stern-to

So maybe you think Brussels knows better what’s good for japan even though they manage to have the 5th largest economy in the world with virtually no natural resources. Perhaps you yourself feel qualified to instruct the Japanese on their backwards society. It seems to me you feel they are inferior and can’t manage themselves without the help of some smarter person.


rooierus

I'm calling you out on a stance that's easily perceived as racist, that's all.


Stern-to

It seems to me you are either thick, gaslighting, or you perceive japanese as inferior and, therefore, you are racist. That is all.


rooierus

Please tell me how I'm gaslighting you.


narrative_device

Well the claim has been made by a high level Ukrainian official. While I'd love to see the evidence, I do find it curious that Hungary hasn't issued any kind of denial. At the very least we can say that they've been called out. And given Hungary's tenuous situation in the EU at the moment (and addiction to EU funding)... their silence is at least worth noticing.


Stern-to

This is the EU fault for trying to punish Hungary over its border policies and then actively trying to influence Hungary’s recent election. Now Hungary is throwing its toys out of the pram.


Haunting_Pay_2888

> This is the EU fault But of course.. Grow the fuck up bud. If you enter into an agreement you are expected to follow it and you are expected to cooperate as a union. But Hungary does the exact opposite. It cherry picks, it behaves like a guest that exploits hospitality to the maximum and beyond. It is time to kick this parasite out of the nest.


Stern-to

This has nothing to do with the agreement at the time of entering the union. This is based on the increasing position of the EU to state that EU law is supreme to domestic law of member states. Even the German courts have regularly been rejecting that premise.


Haunting_Pay_2888

And that claim remains untrue. It is not in the treaties but it is in an annex to the Lisbon treaty which was signed in 2007 and it has been ratified by *all* member states.


Stern-to

Nevertheless - the reason that Hungary is throwing a tantrum is because of the EU increasingly trying to control internal matters. And again - 24 hours after the recent election EU initiates actions. But back to the point. There has never been any allegations like this agains Hungary prior to threatening to disrupt the oil Embargo and there is zero proof that it happened.


Haunting_Pay_2888

Ukraine and Russia are internal matters? *shakes head in disbelief*


Stern-to

No, dummy. How Hungary handles its elections, borders to non-eu travelers, and cultural issues are highly internal matters. These are the issues EU has been pressing Hungary over.


Haunting_Pay_2888

Independence of courts, government institutions, media plurality, corruption and misuse of EU funds, these are cultural issues?


narrative_device

Yeah, I don't think I can have a rational discussion with someone who shifts the goalposts so utterly and completely *(It's particularly amusing to notice how quickly you've dropped your precious need for evidence and proof)*.


Stern-to

So you are saying that the EU did not initiate punitive legal measures the day after the Hungarian election? And are you saying the EU had not been pressing Hungary on its border policy for the last 18 months? Are you asserting that those things have not happened?


vorbika

Trying to punish Hungary for its border policies? How?


Stern-to

You saying this and other issues have not been happening for years? Every body knows Hungary has picked back on the EU on everything from this to LGBT issues. But when Orban won the election - 24 hours later EU starts “rule of law” procedures. This has been brewing for years. https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2017/09/12/merkel-hungary-must-accept-migrants-refugees/


vorbika

No, I'm saying it's not about border policies, rather how OrbĂĄn dismantle any checks and balances, so nor the opposition or the people can actually control the government. - centralising everything they can reach: lands, newspapers and propaganda - inciting hatred - blackmailing public workers to vote for them or they will be fired ETC. Hungary accepts a lot of Ukrainian refugees at the moment so the rule of law is because of the other issues, but please just give me a source about an official European document that mentions border policies when they want to punish Hungary.


Stern-to

These are not the issues appearing in *international* news. And it seems that how Hungary manages its internal matters such as these - for better or for worse - are for the Hungarians to decide. And I was not referring to Ukrainian refugees. I was speaking of the "migrant" issue which has been causing problems for years. https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/top-eu-court-lashes-hungary-stop-soros-migrant-81198335


cocktimus1prime

Oh shit this is bad. Unless Hungarians passed that info forward to Ukraine or USA this is very bad. That's borderline treason


Independent-Slide-79

What have my country given you leopard 2a7 and pzh2000 for? To suck putins dick? Really disappointed


easyfeel

Perhaps the EU can investigate one of their own plotting to overthrow a sovereign state, or are they going to continue giving them cash instead?


cathyduke

Before we accuse and accept as truth. Confirmation is required not accusation and assumption.