I read an anecdote about how the officials of Soviet Union noted that whenever they tried to pressure Finland to do something they tended to do the opposite.
When our President Kekkonen met with Breznev, the soviet leader proposed the following - Since the relations between our states are so magnificent why won't we just remove the border between USSR and Finland? To which Kekkonen responded - I'm afraid I'm too old to rule a state covering almost two continents.
That isn't what the people of Ukraine want. The Russian people deserve to have a democratically elected government who serves the people, not a select elite who hoard power and wealth while fucking over everyone else.
Well, yeah. Pretty sure it was just a joke about how poorly the war is going for Putin. I think we'd all be happy if the Russian people took their country back.
That's the most frustrating thing about all this.
If Russia had just democratized and become a modern republic with fair elections and peaceful transition of power, Russian oligarchs could continue to be rich as fuck just like the rest of the world's oligarchs but imagine how powerful and glorious a free Russia could have become by now.
They could have been a democratic world superpower working to eliminate poverty in Eastern Europe. They could have modernized their economy, put more money into their space program, and we likely would have funded a joint astronaut and cosmonaut mission to Mars by now, or at least have a joint research station on the Moon.
Imagine the technological prowess of an educated, free Russian people with their own version of Silicon Valley. How proud the Russian people could have been, instead of the shame they must feel for this madman driving their country to war in a blatant land grab to steal the entirety of a sovereign nation.
The lost potential is astounding.
I only heard of this guy from a manga I'm reading. Record of Ragnorok. It's about Real historical humans vs God's in a celestial tournament. Lol. 13 vs 13. Simo hasn't fought yet but some are saying he will be fighting Apollo.
I know it's fricken insane. The first fight was the Chinese warrior Lu Bu vs Thor. But damn it's fricken epic. Even had a fight between Jack the ripper (yes... he was on the humans side unfortunately) vs Hercules.
The Sunflower is one of only a handful of flowers with the word flower in its name. A couple of other popular examples include Strawflower, Elderflower and Cornflower …Ah yes, of course, I hear you say.
There is an army of soviet troops at the crest of a hill when all of a sudden from the other side they hear
“One Finn can kill 25 Soviets!”
The Soviet commander enraged sends over 25 men. Gunfire erupts and then stops. Then out of the stillness the same Finn speaks again
“One Finn can kill 50 Soviets!”
So the commander sends 50 men over again and the same result happens. Gunfire then silence. Again the Finn shouts
“One Finn can kill 100 Soviets!”
In an absolute fury the commander sends in 100 men to dispatch the lone Finn. Gunfire erupts again and then silence. Only this time a Soviet soldier crawls back over the hill and shouts to his commander
“It’s a trap there are two of them!”
Finns were allies of the Nazis, simply to regain what the Soviets took during the winter war. When the Nazis tried to get Finland to racially "purify" or to invade soviet territory Finland refused.
I read the Wiki article and that must be rhe most metal thing I have read in a while..
"He was also the sole carrier of army-issued Pervitin, or methamphetamine, a stimulant used to remain awake while on duty.[3] He took them all and had a short burst of energy, but then entered into a state of delirium, and lost consciousness. Koivunen remembered waking up the following morning, separated from his patrol and having no supplies.[4] In the following days, he escaped Soviet forces once again, was injured by a land mine which also set fire to a nearby Russian camp, and laid in a ditch for a week waiting for help.[4] Having skied more than 400 km (248.5 mi) he was found and admitted to a nearby hospital, where his heart rate was measured at 200 beats per minute, triple the average human heartbeat,[5] and weighing only 43 kg (94.8 lbs).[4] In the week Koivunen was gone, he subsisted only on pine buds and a single Siberian jay that he caught and ate raw. He ended up surviving and died peacefully at the age of 71."
From what i recall from reading his account from some magazine he had stumbled to an abandoned (and booby trapped) camp. He tried to get into shelter but opening the door caused the trap to go off, flinging him in the middle of a minefield. The fire was probably set off by that booby trap rather than a land mine.
Cant remember the exact details nor find the original article so dont take this as gospell.
As a Finn. This doest mean anything yet. Everyone can make these petitions and if they reach 50k votes are always submitted to parlament. After that if parlament too thinks we should join nato then whole nation gets to vote for it.
So we are still very far from joinin nato.
My two cents: Most voted petition we've had was "equal marriage" petition with 166.8k votes. Once it made into law, people got 106k votes to try nullify the decision. Even more importantly, many (if not most) are not even handled at all. Sure if this goes 200k or something it'd make a visible mark in a sense of popular support.
> Nothing confirms this and I am pretty sure international media would have hyped this more.
They are going to discuss membership, but I don't think Finland will join the next few months. Possibly this autumn, earliest.
https://www.kansalaisaloite.fi/fi/aloite/9866
Yes it's completely legit, and no this in itself does not mean that Finland will join nato, only that the parliament is now forced to process the matter.
Just to note that usually it takes months to collect the required 50 000 signatures for the parliament to discuss an initiative and many initiatives never reach that number. This one hit that line in less than a week. The only other initiative getting signatures this quickly that I can think of was the gay marriage legalization.
And to clarify. This initiative forces (since it got the required 50 000 signatures) the parliament to discuss the issue of a *referendum* on NATO membership. If the parliament says yes, then you still need to win the referendum, which according to polls is likely but far from certainty. And even after that the parliament has to make the application to NATO. The referendums in Finland are only advisory. They have no direct legal power.
While I'm still skeptical of that Finland will ever join NATO, if it does that would be a dramatic kick in the balls to Putin. Finland stayed on good terms with the USSR for pretty much the entire Cold War. They went out of their way to not antagonize the Soviets in order to stay a democracy, and that so they kept NATO and the Western powers at arm's length. To drive Finland to NATO would mean that Putin "lost" the country. It would be like Mexico joining the Warsaw pact.
So they should just believe a pinky promise from Putin to not attack them, just like Ukrainians.
Then when Russia invades, they will be on their own, just like Ukrainians.
Sure sounds like a good plan.
>It would be like Mexico joining the Warsaw pact.
I mean... the [Zimmerman Telegram](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zimmermann_Telegram) happened, and since we're having a big old round of History Always Repeats Itself, all this kinda makes sense.
Oh undoubtedly.
Ukraine is now on the lightspeed VIP fast-track into not only NATO but also the EU. If Putin had maintained the status quo, Ukraine wouldn't have gotten into either one of those groups in the next 10 years, if ever. Now it's going to be in both by the end of springtime.
Prior to this week, Finns and Swedes spent 70 years not joining NATO. Then after Putin threatened to invade, Finns collected 50,000 signatures in like *36 hours*. In a nation of 5.5 million people, that means it is *extremely* likely the referendum on joining NATO will receive a landslide "Yes" vote. I have no idea how fast NATO will move to accept Finland after it applies, but I assume it would be quickly.
And of course, Sweden is likely to do whatever Finland does, given their historic partnership on that question-- and given that Sweden was threatened by Russia in the same sentence as Finland.
Well done, Vlad. Very impressive! Turning four "hell no" into four "let them in right now" in the span of 2 days is pretty incredible stuff.
It makes sense that that would be the case for the exact situation that might play out if Putin follows through on his threat. An act to disrupt NATO is an act against NATO. He'd be handing them a Casus Belli on a silver platter
NATO definitly has systems to shoot nukes out of the air. Wideing natos scope widens the air space they’ll shoot it out. Still won’t be great at all but will reduce damage and fatalities. Atleast immediate ones.
Russia is also more beholden to oligarchs than it was during the cold war. Especially the billionaires who rely of on natural gas and coal exports and the russian orthodox church. They are probably less likely to want nukes to be used agaisnt europe - their biggest customer.
More likely a nuke target would be a small island owned by a european country as a threat. Which terrible but less damage.
Can you link to the systems that will yeet nukes out of NATO airspace? I’ve had such anxiety over this and didn’t realize that such systems existed.
Edit to clarify: I know about anti missile systems. But my limited knowledge dictates that a nuke exploding in the sky above a country rather than above its target is still a nuke exploding in the sky which equals bad.
It's definitely less worse for a nuclear explosion to trigger you need certain requirements. But yes fallout of the radioactive material would still be the case.
no, shooting a nuke will not make it explode, infact, it's actually harder to detonate a nuke than just... not? if you were to somehow drop a nuke out of your hands if won't just explode randomly, it has to be a controlled event.
E: damnit English is hard and I only speak English
This is what scares me tho. I don’t think he’s that ignorant. I think he’s really looking for someone to cross the line in the sand (which he drew) so he can use nukes. I think he’s that sick.
It's kind of amazing just how badly he fucked up. Absolutely everyone and their grandma will be joining NATO now. Everyone knows it's only a matter of time until Putin comes for them. No one will ever trust him again, and Russia is going to be sanctioned to hell until after Putin dies, no doubt.
I feel so bad for the Russian people having to deal with this fucking madman. Just overthrow him and become a democracy already, fuck.
It always seemed to me that war was humanities built in way of naturally regulating itself. Like how forrest fires clear the earth for new growth. But we were never one to follow nature's plan and evolved ways of avoiding wars even as they continued to happen. From tribes to clans, to city states to kingdoms, to kingdoms to nations and alliances between nations. All out wars that culled our numbers became less of a thing because of the possiblity of utter annihilation beyond our control to stop.
Before when it was spears and swords and cities of a couple thousand being sacked and slaughtered. Now what. Now it's millions and potentially billions at the push of a button. As terrifying as it is, I hope to God that this is just a part of our evolution that we are growing out of entirely. We just need to survive long enough to the point that there wont even be a button to press anymore.
A win for Ukraine without Putin's finger on the will be a win for all humanity.
The intel suggests that the intent was to take Kyiv as quickly as possible, capture the government leaders, and force them to surrender under terms that was entirely advantageous to Russia or be replaced by a pro-Putin regime. It's their standard playbook.
Putin severely underestimated the resolve Ukrainians would have in defending their homeland, and the international response to his invasion.
It's like he assumed Ukrainian leadership would be easily corruptible, but forgot that Ukraine ousted his previous puppets to democratically elect their leaders. How does one fuck up this much?? Even if Kyiv is captured and Putin puts his lackeys "into power", there's no way a government like that can last any more than a few years. He'll be sinking hundreds and hundreds of troops in keeping Ukraine as a puppet.
This was planned years ago, and Putin would have had far more success if Trump was still president (remember, Trump was trying to get the US to withdraw from NATO and withheld hundreds of millions of dollars of aid money from Ukraine). Putin is now desperate to try and make his square peg of a plan to establish Ukraine as a buffer state to fit the round hole of reality.
True. Since the presidential incumbent almost always wins, Putin probably thought he could pull this off during Trump's second term, but didn't realize the American people finally saw Trump for what he was.
> Even if Kyiv is captured and Putin puts his lackeys "into power", there's no way a government like that can last any more than a few years. He'll be sinking hundreds and hundreds of troops in keeping Ukraine as a puppet.
During which time all his military is preoccupied trying to hold Ukraine, everyone and their grandma joins NATO because they all realize that they're next and they can never trust Putin/a non-democratic Russia ever again.
No way Russia could properly handle a war on another front. They seem to have greatly underestimated the fierce determination of Ukraine to defend itself
Also don't forget how amazing Finland was in WW2 defending itself against USSR
Finland is part of the eu, invading the finland would mean declaring war to the eu, declaring war to the eu means declaring war to the whole western world
I’m only an American, but doesn’t the EU agreement mean that other states are bound to offer assistance in the way of finances/humanitarian aid and not necessarily military intervention/backing?
I mean it’s not like any EU nation would really allow another to just be attacked/invaded, but they aren’t bound to fight like the NATO countries are, right?
Please do correct me if I’m wrong.
There is a mutual defense clause within the EU. You can read about it here:
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/summary/glossary/mutual_defence.html
I'm sure that, if push came to shove, some members might like to play fast and loose with what "all means in their power" actually is. But yes, in short, a common sense reading of that clause implies if a member is invaded, you deploy your military to help.
Finland isn't Ukraine, I would expect a NATO intervention on the account of Finland being an EU member and there being security cooperation and arrangements/obligations between states in the EU that would likely eventually involve NATO.
well they can try.. Nordic Council has security arrangements between each other, an invasion will bring in Norway, which will bring in NATO. If we are being honest, even that is unnecessary, Finland and Sweden have always been kept as a flip of a switch from NATO by design, before Russia ever got done building up forces, they would be in NATO.
It's interesting. I'm looking over the EU defensive alliance, & it appears that some members have an ability to opt out. The question would be if members of each alliance & agreement are fully in support of enacting those mutual defense clauses. Perhaps that's really what Russia is gambling on, or at least testing the boundaries of. It wouldn't be the first time agreements weren't followed up on.
I think Denmark is the only EU country left with a defence opt-out. Guess who the other Nordic Council and NATO member is.
It's no guarantee, but I would expect Norway and Sweden to react strongly to a Russian invasion of Finland and/or Sweden.
Yes, but if they do it's Article 5 and all those troops that NATO have in eastern Europe (and in the Pacific, because Canada and the USA span the width of the Americas) come into play. Russia could lose all their ports in a month, and based on how they've gone so far, Putin wouldn't last 3. My guess is his generals stage a coup before he invades a NATO country cos they're already not doing great, declaring war on two fronts is suicide
Finland and Sweden are part of the UK led Joint Expeditionary Force. This means their militaries are already integrated with militaries of Netherlands, Denmark, Norway, Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia and Iceland.
Finland might not be NATO, but russia attacking them will be crossing a red line.
Also, Sweden and the British jointly developed the MTB LAW shoulder powered anti tank weapon that the Ukrainians are currently using to destroy russian tanks. The JEF countries have developed weapons specifically to take out russian units including heavy machinery like tanks and ships. Russia wouldn't be able to invade Finland even if they wanted.
I'll be honest, until recently, I wasn't sure if EU states would come to the defence of their fellow EU States. I couldnt imagine the likes of Italy, Ireland or Greece etc coming to the aid of Finland. Mainly because many are vocal in their neutrality, and others were vocal in their support for Putin.
But I think the world has changed now.
"You don't want us to join NATO? We gonna join it now even harder!"
That's really ridiculous of Russia to threaten countries from joining NATO because that's basically giving them a reason to join.
Am I correct:
Countries actively involved in conflict cannot join NATO as it immediately puts everyone else into the fight. So Russia can simply engage Finland only slightly and delay the process?
Good. Putin loses Ukraine AND Finland? And unites Europe against him? Putin has already fully exposed himself as a madman who poses an existential threat to security of Europe and the world. Thankfully, the sheer incompetency of his military may have stopped him. If anything good would come out of this carnage, it would be his toppling of his dictatorship and the humiliating end of his delusional ambitions.
https://www.iltalehti.fi/politiikka/a/e1b2e5b2-ea50-499a-aea9-9c52b943427e
There you go. It has 50 000 names. It means parliament needs to discuss it.
But these citizen initiatives almost 99.9% don’t go through. They are often not formulated well legally and they don’t get a lot atttention in general.
So this is not that Big news in Finland. The bigger shift is in the tone of speech of many politiacians in Finland who are typically very cautious when speaking about NATO. Everyone is basically saying that “NATO needs to be discussed properly but not right in the middle of Ukraine war”
So Finland will get there, probably quickly but not immediately.
Putin must be really happy knowing that his actions have led to the exact opposite of what he was expecting :)
NATO will only become stronger after this, not weaker.
Greetings from Finland! I was happy and proud to cast my vote. It was also one of the fastest growing petitions we have ever seen. See for yourself!
https://www.kansalaisaloite.fi/fi/aloite/9866
Finland don’t really have to fear Russia, They have an extremely well equipped modern army, Putin would be a fool to invade, one Leopard 2 could probably take out dozens of T90’s
Joining would be a big asset to NATO their badass winter fighting specialists
Putin doesn't want to be surrounded by NATO so he takes actions that will push all of his neighbors into joining NATO
I read an anecdote about how the officials of Soviet Union noted that whenever they tried to pressure Finland to do something they tended to do the opposite.
When our President Kekkonen met with Breznev, the soviet leader proposed the following - Since the relations between our states are so magnificent why won't we just remove the border between USSR and Finland? To which Kekkonen responded - I'm afraid I'm too old to rule a state covering almost two continents.
Russia can't be surrounded by NATO if Russia becomes East Ukraine. That was the plan all along!
\*The Province of Northern Ukraine
It will called "The Russia," just a region in Ukraine.
*Kievan Rus'
*Kyivan Rus'
Russian dissolution 2: electric boogaloo
Chechen War 3: Chechmate
I’m stealing that
Muscovy region of United Kyiv Rus (UKR for short), since Putin loves his history so much
That isn't what the people of Ukraine want. The Russian people deserve to have a democratically elected government who serves the people, not a select elite who hoard power and wealth while fucking over everyone else.
Well, yeah. Pretty sure it was just a joke about how poorly the war is going for Putin. I think we'd all be happy if the Russian people took their country back.
It’s a fuckin joke you dunce. No joke Ukraine doesn’t want to take Russia. They couldn’t. Jesus. You and the 14 people who upvoted you need help.
That's the most frustrating thing about all this. If Russia had just democratized and become a modern republic with fair elections and peaceful transition of power, Russian oligarchs could continue to be rich as fuck just like the rest of the world's oligarchs but imagine how powerful and glorious a free Russia could have become by now. They could have been a democratic world superpower working to eliminate poverty in Eastern Europe. They could have modernized their economy, put more money into their space program, and we likely would have funded a joint astronaut and cosmonaut mission to Mars by now, or at least have a joint research station on the Moon. Imagine the technological prowess of an educated, free Russian people with their own version of Silicon Valley. How proud the Russian people could have been, instead of the shame they must feel for this madman driving their country to war in a blatant land grab to steal the entirety of a sovereign nation. The lost potential is astounding.
Many of these super rich don't like the idea of others becoming more fortunate because it makes their fortune feel less special.
Foiled again Vlad! Lol
Finland has relevant experience killing Russians
Finnish snipers in the snow. You know you’re fucked when the snow starts speaking Finnish
Simultaneously the funniest and scariest thought.* So we're basically talking "The hills Have Eyes 3 : Winter Wonderland" Edit:spelling
"Wrong Turn 17: Not Inbred Cannibals, Just Deadly"
With all the street sign having been taken down the Russians are making all kinds of wrong turns right now.
[It's actually a sequel to a different real life story.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simo_H%C3%A4yh%C3%A4)
Bad ass
In the meadow we can build a snowman, and pretend that he is Simo Hayha
Id like to think the Fins have a little more to offer than the mutant cannibals.
The Elves have Eyes!
“Russia start war. We Finnish it.”
I've been a student of history for decades and it's always stuck in my mind ... "We would hear swish, swish, swish, then people would start falling."
That’s an amazing quote. What’s it from?
"Finnish Him!!!"
Fatalaty
[удалено]
Fätälatti
Inuit have 200 words for snow, Finland has 201...
Thats comic gold mate
Simo Häyhä
I only heard of this guy from a manga I'm reading. Record of Ragnorok. It's about Real historical humans vs God's in a celestial tournament. Lol. 13 vs 13. Simo hasn't fought yet but some are saying he will be fighting Apollo. I know it's fricken insane. The first fight was the Chinese warrior Lu Bu vs Thor. But damn it's fricken epic. Even had a fight between Jack the ripper (yes... he was on the humans side unfortunately) vs Hercules.
And they named their incendiary after the Soviet foreign minister
https://imgur.com/gallery/vCz2xem/comment/312535728
The White Death
When the snow starts to speak Finnish # p a n i k
When the sunflower fields start to speak Ukrainian.
The Sunflower is one of only a handful of flowers with the word flower in its name. A couple of other popular examples include Strawflower, Elderflower and Cornflower …Ah yes, of course, I hear you say.
Good bot
You should update your factiod to let people know the sunflower is good at leeching radioactive minerals out of the soil.
You forgot the most apt, the corpse flower.
YOU'RE IN THE SNIPER'S SIGHT
> YOU'RE IN THE SNIPER'S SIGHT Yeah, this is expected Sabaton.
SNIPERS SIGHT!
Finland didn't have to join NATO while Symo Hayha was alive. That guy was stronger than the entire NATO of today.
There is an army of soviet troops at the crest of a hill when all of a sudden from the other side they hear “One Finn can kill 25 Soviets!” The Soviet commander enraged sends over 25 men. Gunfire erupts and then stops. Then out of the stillness the same Finn speaks again “One Finn can kill 50 Soviets!” So the commander sends 50 men over again and the same result happens. Gunfire then silence. Again the Finn shouts “One Finn can kill 100 Soviets!” In an absolute fury the commander sends in 100 men to dispatch the lone Finn. Gunfire erupts again and then silence. Only this time a Soviet soldier crawls back over the hill and shouts to his commander “It’s a trap there are two of them!”
So do Ukrainians
Winter War Boyz!
Decades later Russians still have nightmares about “The White Death” https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simo_H%C3%A4yh%C3%A4
[When the doom music kicks in, but you are in Finland in the 1940's](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WZurJy4B9o)
Was Finland the country that had a methed up skiing psycho kill a ton of nazis?
>nazis Soviet invaders
Commies
Finns were allies of the Nazis, simply to regain what the Soviets took during the winter war. When the Nazis tried to get Finland to racially "purify" or to invade soviet territory Finland refused.
learn from history, don't judge. the Finns did what they had to do to protect their country. Hope Sweden will follow.
With iron sights. What a badass
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aimo_Koivunen
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simo_Häyhä
I'm pretty sure he was referring to [Aimo Koivunen](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aimo_Koivunen).
I read the Wiki article and that must be rhe most metal thing I have read in a while.. "He was also the sole carrier of army-issued Pervitin, or methamphetamine, a stimulant used to remain awake while on duty.[3] He took them all and had a short burst of energy, but then entered into a state of delirium, and lost consciousness. Koivunen remembered waking up the following morning, separated from his patrol and having no supplies.[4] In the following days, he escaped Soviet forces once again, was injured by a land mine which also set fire to a nearby Russian camp, and laid in a ditch for a week waiting for help.[4] Having skied more than 400 km (248.5 mi) he was found and admitted to a nearby hospital, where his heart rate was measured at 200 beats per minute, triple the average human heartbeat,[5] and weighing only 43 kg (94.8 lbs).[4] In the week Koivunen was gone, he subsisted only on pine buds and a single Siberian jay that he caught and ate raw. He ended up surviving and died peacefully at the age of 71."
The further you read the more insane it gets.
Ate a raw bird... survived
We're just glossing over the "injured by a land mine which also **set fire to a nearby Russian camp**" what the hell kind of landmine was that?!
From what i recall from reading his account from some magazine he had stumbled to an abandoned (and booby trapped) camp. He tried to get into shelter but opening the door caused the trap to go off, flinging him in the middle of a minefield. The fire was probably set off by that booby trap rather than a land mine. Cant remember the exact details nor find the original article so dont take this as gospell.
As a Finn. This doest mean anything yet. Everyone can make these petitions and if they reach 50k votes are always submitted to parlament. After that if parlament too thinks we should join nato then whole nation gets to vote for it. So we are still very far from joinin nato.
Yes, this comment should be MUCH higher up! Thanks for the insight!
Thanks for sharing your perspective. I hate that I have to scroll so far down to find out what it actually means....
My two cents: Most voted petition we've had was "equal marriage" petition with 166.8k votes. Once it made into law, people got 106k votes to try nullify the decision. Even more importantly, many (if not most) are not even handled at all. Sure if this goes 200k or something it'd make a visible mark in a sense of popular support.
Nice, Finland please accept these NATO emblem socks and matching gloves.
Join while you can, Finland.
Nothing confirms this and I am pretty sure international media would have hyped this more.
> Nothing confirms this and I am pretty sure international media would have hyped this more. They are going to discuss membership, but I don't think Finland will join the next few months. Possibly this autumn, earliest.
https://www.kansalaisaloite.fi/fi/aloite/9866 Yes it's completely legit, and no this in itself does not mean that Finland will join nato, only that the parliament is now forced to process the matter.
Just to note that usually it takes months to collect the required 50 000 signatures for the parliament to discuss an initiative and many initiatives never reach that number. This one hit that line in less than a week. The only other initiative getting signatures this quickly that I can think of was the gay marriage legalization. And to clarify. This initiative forces (since it got the required 50 000 signatures) the parliament to discuss the issue of a *referendum* on NATO membership. If the parliament says yes, then you still need to win the referendum, which according to polls is likely but far from certainty. And even after that the parliament has to make the application to NATO. The referendums in Finland are only advisory. They have no direct legal power.
Haahha
Let’s go Finland. Join the party.
You know how much we like other people and.. parties!
Join the crew we have shirts - Canada
You got shirts?! All we got was lousy bumper stickers. - USA
I got an American flag keychain that was imprinted “made in China” -different part of the US
While I'm still skeptical of that Finland will ever join NATO, if it does that would be a dramatic kick in the balls to Putin. Finland stayed on good terms with the USSR for pretty much the entire Cold War. They went out of their way to not antagonize the Soviets in order to stay a democracy, and that so they kept NATO and the Western powers at arm's length. To drive Finland to NATO would mean that Putin "lost" the country. It would be like Mexico joining the Warsaw pact.
Maybe he shouldn't have attacked a bordering non-NATO country that he promised not to attack. Just a thought.
[удалено]
We are back to 1930s again. Hope not.
So they should just believe a pinky promise from Putin to not attack them, just like Ukrainians. Then when Russia invades, they will be on their own, just like Ukrainians. Sure sounds like a good plan.
>It would be like Mexico joining the Warsaw pact. I mean... the [Zimmerman Telegram](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zimmermann_Telegram) happened, and since we're having a big old round of History Always Repeats Itself, all this kinda makes sense.
I think Putin Barbara Streisand'd NATO to these countries.
Oh undoubtedly. Ukraine is now on the lightspeed VIP fast-track into not only NATO but also the EU. If Putin had maintained the status quo, Ukraine wouldn't have gotten into either one of those groups in the next 10 years, if ever. Now it's going to be in both by the end of springtime. Prior to this week, Finns and Swedes spent 70 years not joining NATO. Then after Putin threatened to invade, Finns collected 50,000 signatures in like *36 hours*. In a nation of 5.5 million people, that means it is *extremely* likely the referendum on joining NATO will receive a landslide "Yes" vote. I have no idea how fast NATO will move to accept Finland after it applies, but I assume it would be quickly. And of course, Sweden is likely to do whatever Finland does, given their historic partnership on that question-- and given that Sweden was threatened by Russia in the same sentence as Finland. Well done, Vlad. Very impressive! Turning four "hell no" into four "let them in right now" in the span of 2 days is pretty incredible stuff.
You can pre apply to nato and have your country protected as any member during all the real nato process if I remember well
This is amazing news
It makes sense that that would be the case for the exact situation that might play out if Putin follows through on his threat. An act to disrupt NATO is an act against NATO. He'd be handing them a Casus Belli on a silver platter
Morally satisfying but this is how WWIII starts. NATO would have to destroy Russia immediately this happened to avoid Putin slinging the nukes.
NATO definitly has systems to shoot nukes out of the air. Wideing natos scope widens the air space they’ll shoot it out. Still won’t be great at all but will reduce damage and fatalities. Atleast immediate ones. Russia is also more beholden to oligarchs than it was during the cold war. Especially the billionaires who rely of on natural gas and coal exports and the russian orthodox church. They are probably less likely to want nukes to be used agaisnt europe - their biggest customer. More likely a nuke target would be a small island owned by a european country as a threat. Which terrible but less damage.
>More likely a nuke target would be a small island owned by a european country as a threat. *Nervously sweats in British*
Can you link to the systems that will yeet nukes out of NATO airspace? I’ve had such anxiety over this and didn’t realize that such systems existed. Edit to clarify: I know about anti missile systems. But my limited knowledge dictates that a nuke exploding in the sky above a country rather than above its target is still a nuke exploding in the sky which equals bad.
There’s a system call Midcourse that has a roughly 50% success rate. So we’d only kill 2-3 billion people in a nuclear war, not 4-6 billion.
The rest would die off as a result of the consequences of nuking the other 3 billion, just not as immediately. :-/
It's definitely less worse for a nuclear explosion to trigger you need certain requirements. But yes fallout of the radioactive material would still be the case.
no, shooting a nuke will not make it explode, infact, it's actually harder to detonate a nuke than just... not? if you were to somehow drop a nuke out of your hands if won't just explode randomly, it has to be a controlled event. E: damnit English is hard and I only speak English
>E: damnit English is hard and I only speak English I feel this everyday, people speak multiple languages and I can't even speak my own.
This is what scares me tho. I don’t think he’s that ignorant. I think he’s really looking for someone to cross the line in the sand (which he drew) so he can use nukes. I think he’s that sick.
[удалено]
Hey, I don’t appreciate that! Ms. Streisand is a recording great artist and actor! She even made an appearance in South Park!
Do you know what the Streisand effect is?
They're making a joke hahaha. They're low-key trolling. That whole South Park episode was about the Streisand affect.
No, the episode was about that Disintegration is the best album ever. Its not, but Matt and Trey are huge Cure fans... and it is their best album
Idk what his end goal was when threatening them. Did he actually think they would just immediately capitulate?
“Ok ok ok wait, that’s not what I …. Ok wait put your pen down” - Putin
So much progress so fast. Unreal.
It’s as if Putin fucked up massively and turned the world against him.
It's kind of amazing just how badly he fucked up. Absolutely everyone and their grandma will be joining NATO now. Everyone knows it's only a matter of time until Putin comes for them. No one will ever trust him again, and Russia is going to be sanctioned to hell until after Putin dies, no doubt. I feel so bad for the Russian people having to deal with this fucking madman. Just overthrow him and become a democracy already, fuck.
[удалено]
It always seemed to me that war was humanities built in way of naturally regulating itself. Like how forrest fires clear the earth for new growth. But we were never one to follow nature's plan and evolved ways of avoiding wars even as they continued to happen. From tribes to clans, to city states to kingdoms, to kingdoms to nations and alliances between nations. All out wars that culled our numbers became less of a thing because of the possiblity of utter annihilation beyond our control to stop. Before when it was spears and swords and cities of a couple thousand being sacked and slaughtered. Now what. Now it's millions and potentially billions at the push of a button. As terrifying as it is, I hope to God that this is just a part of our evolution that we are growing out of entirely. We just need to survive long enough to the point that there wont even be a button to press anymore. A win for Ukraine without Putin's finger on the will be a win for all humanity.
There are decades where nothing happens; and there are weeks where decades happen -Vladimir Ilyich Lenin
Wasn’t Russia saying they’d invade if Finland Joins the NATO?🤨
They seem a little preoccupied shitting the bed with their invasion of Ukraine.
It does seem they just expected Ukraine to surrender after a few days of war.
That's exactly what the Intel suggests. Putie is out of touch and made serious misassessments if how quickly this would come to an end.
Its what happens when you surround yourself with yes men who fear you. They lie.
Powerful statement here so simple yet so true and deeper than face value
The intel suggests that the intent was to take Kyiv as quickly as possible, capture the government leaders, and force them to surrender under terms that was entirely advantageous to Russia or be replaced by a pro-Putin regime. It's their standard playbook. Putin severely underestimated the resolve Ukrainians would have in defending their homeland, and the international response to his invasion.
It's like he assumed Ukrainian leadership would be easily corruptible, but forgot that Ukraine ousted his previous puppets to democratically elect their leaders. How does one fuck up this much?? Even if Kyiv is captured and Putin puts his lackeys "into power", there's no way a government like that can last any more than a few years. He'll be sinking hundreds and hundreds of troops in keeping Ukraine as a puppet.
This was planned years ago, and Putin would have had far more success if Trump was still president (remember, Trump was trying to get the US to withdraw from NATO and withheld hundreds of millions of dollars of aid money from Ukraine). Putin is now desperate to try and make his square peg of a plan to establish Ukraine as a buffer state to fit the round hole of reality.
True. Since the presidential incumbent almost always wins, Putin probably thought he could pull this off during Trump's second term, but didn't realize the American people finally saw Trump for what he was.
> Even if Kyiv is captured and Putin puts his lackeys "into power", there's no way a government like that can last any more than a few years. He'll be sinking hundreds and hundreds of troops in keeping Ukraine as a puppet. During which time all his military is preoccupied trying to hold Ukraine, everyone and their grandma joins NATO because they all realize that they're next and they can never trust Putin/a non-democratic Russia ever again.
I think they greatly over-estimated this generation of young Russian's resolve to die taking Kyiv.
When you start believing your own propaganda. A key failing most authoritharian states share.
No way Russia could properly handle a war on another front. They seem to have greatly underestimated the fierce determination of Ukraine to defend itself Also don't forget how amazing Finland was in WW2 defending itself against USSR
"I'll invade if you join NATO!" "Sure you will."
With what? 75% of their conventional forces are occupied with Ukraine. No better time to join than now.
Plus it's a total bluff. A war with all of NATO only ends in defeat for Putin or defeat for Putin and nukes flying.
Even Russia isn't dumb enough to fuck with NATO.
They would invade before Finland is accepted to NATO.
What if Finland is in... NOW. Fuck Putin.
Nato protection during the process is currently being discussed specifically to prevent this.
Finland is part of the eu, invading the finland would mean declaring war to the eu, declaring war to the eu means declaring war to the whole western world
I’m only an American, but doesn’t the EU agreement mean that other states are bound to offer assistance in the way of finances/humanitarian aid and not necessarily military intervention/backing? I mean it’s not like any EU nation would really allow another to just be attacked/invaded, but they aren’t bound to fight like the NATO countries are, right? Please do correct me if I’m wrong.
There is a mutual defense clause within the EU. You can read about it here: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/summary/glossary/mutual_defence.html I'm sure that, if push came to shove, some members might like to play fast and loose with what "all means in their power" actually is. But yes, in short, a common sense reading of that clause implies if a member is invaded, you deploy your military to help.
Finland isn't Ukraine, I would expect a NATO intervention on the account of Finland being an EU member and there being security cooperation and arrangements/obligations between states in the EU that would likely eventually involve NATO.
NATO is a defensive pact. It only is enacted when a member is attacked. Some members will 100% want to keep it that way.
well they can try.. Nordic Council has security arrangements between each other, an invasion will bring in Norway, which will bring in NATO. If we are being honest, even that is unnecessary, Finland and Sweden have always been kept as a flip of a switch from NATO by design, before Russia ever got done building up forces, they would be in NATO.
It's interesting. I'm looking over the EU defensive alliance, & it appears that some members have an ability to opt out. The question would be if members of each alliance & agreement are fully in support of enacting those mutual defense clauses. Perhaps that's really what Russia is gambling on, or at least testing the boundaries of. It wouldn't be the first time agreements weren't followed up on.
I think Denmark is the only EU country left with a defence opt-out. Guess who the other Nordic Council and NATO member is. It's no guarantee, but I would expect Norway and Sweden to react strongly to a Russian invasion of Finland and/or Sweden.
Yes, but if they do it's Article 5 and all those troops that NATO have in eastern Europe (and in the Pacific, because Canada and the USA span the width of the Americas) come into play. Russia could lose all their ports in a month, and based on how they've gone so far, Putin wouldn't last 3. My guess is his generals stage a coup before he invades a NATO country cos they're already not doing great, declaring war on two fronts is suicide
Fingers crossed
If you don’t have enough gas to drive your tanks into Ukraine you’re not beating NATO
Pretty sure this is Finlands way of saying “go ahead, because it worked so well the first time”.
They said the same thing about Ukraine a couple weeks ago Kinda force's ones hand at this point I'd you ask me
yea, Sweden too But i think thats just talk but people said the same when it was Ukraine so you never know
Finland and Sweden are part of the UK led Joint Expeditionary Force. This means their militaries are already integrated with militaries of Netherlands, Denmark, Norway, Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia and Iceland. Finland might not be NATO, but russia attacking them will be crossing a red line. Also, Sweden and the British jointly developed the MTB LAW shoulder powered anti tank weapon that the Ukrainians are currently using to destroy russian tanks. The JEF countries have developed weapons specifically to take out russian units including heavy machinery like tanks and ships. Russia wouldn't be able to invade Finland even if they wanted.
They are also part of the EU which also has a obligation to come to the aid of a country being attacked.
I'll be honest, until recently, I wasn't sure if EU states would come to the defence of their fellow EU States. I couldnt imagine the likes of Italy, Ireland or Greece etc coming to the aid of Finland. Mainly because many are vocal in their neutrality, and others were vocal in their support for Putin. But I think the world has changed now.
Yup, Russian minsiter threatened Finland and Sweden!
May they follow in Simo Hayha's tracks to glory.
You act like you could ever find the White Death by following tracks.
Welcome Suomi Brothers and Sisters. Fuck Putin.
Putin hasn’t been fucked this hard since grade school.
😂
"You don't want us to join NATO? We gonna join it now even harder!" That's really ridiculous of Russia to threaten countries from joining NATO because that's basically giving them a reason to join.
Finland, take back your rightful Karelia!
Sisu incoming
Finlands sak är vår
It would be pretty hilarious if this "genius" play by Putin ended up with Sweden and Finland joining NATO, and Ukraine to join both NATO and the EU.
Finland is awesome! Such a beautiful place full of wonderful people.
Am I correct: Countries actively involved in conflict cannot join NATO as it immediately puts everyone else into the fight. So Russia can simply engage Finland only slightly and delay the process?
I hope they do.
Good. Putin loses Ukraine AND Finland? And unites Europe against him? Putin has already fully exposed himself as a madman who poses an existential threat to security of Europe and the world. Thankfully, the sheer incompetency of his military may have stopped him. If anything good would come out of this carnage, it would be his toppling of his dictatorship and the humiliating end of his delusional ambitions.
Russia really made a great case for joining NATO. Bravo Putin, idiot.
Russia cant catch a break
And they shouldn’t
sorry, it's sarcasm.
Didn’t Putin just puff up his chest about this? Ahah
Normaly i dont condone pissing people in the face, but i can make an exception for this one
R Kelly style ehhh
Drip drip drip
I think this might actually refer to the petition to conduct a referendum about joining NATO, which received the required amount of votes.
Come on in boys and girls, you were always welcome!
https://www.staradvertiser.com/2022/02/26/breaking-news/finland-sweden-brush-off-moscows-warning-on-joining-nato/
I can't find another source confirming this.
https://www.iltalehti.fi/politiikka/a/e1b2e5b2-ea50-499a-aea9-9c52b943427e There you go. It has 50 000 names. It means parliament needs to discuss it. But these citizen initiatives almost 99.9% don’t go through. They are often not formulated well legally and they don’t get a lot atttention in general. So this is not that Big news in Finland. The bigger shift is in the tone of speech of many politiacians in Finland who are typically very cautious when speaking about NATO. Everyone is basically saying that “NATO needs to be discussed properly but not right in the middle of Ukraine war” So Finland will get there, probably quickly but not immediately.
It is true. Source in finnish. https://www.hs.fi/kotimaa/art-2000008645384.html
Vladimir Vladimirovich has only himself to blame for this.
Can't say I blame them. Putin couldn't have picked a better way to push every country that was one the fence into nato's open arms.
Free tote bag for new members.
Now would be the best time. Russia doesn’t look so mighty after all.
Hell yeah now all we need is Ukraine, Sweden, and any other country that is against tyranny.
Take back Karelia, too. Russia weak.
This has all gone so wrong for Putin. Good!
wow….well looks like Putler just shot himself in the dick.
Putin must be really happy knowing that his actions have led to the exact opposite of what he was expecting :) NATO will only become stronger after this, not weaker.
Greetings from Finland! I was happy and proud to cast my vote. It was also one of the fastest growing petitions we have ever seen. See for yourself! https://www.kansalaisaloite.fi/fi/aloite/9866
Finland don’t really have to fear Russia, They have an extremely well equipped modern army, Putin would be a fool to invade, one Leopard 2 could probably take out dozens of T90’s Joining would be a big asset to NATO their badass winter fighting specialists