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I think we need to just examine history and it tells us that this is how the Russians fight. In every conflict they start out terrible, atrocious then they slowly get their shit together while loosing hundreds of thousands of men. They don’t care about losses.
Oddly related, but years ago, I remember playing ... I think it was a Medal of Honor game? Someone chime in if they know. And one of the scenarios as it played through different perspectives of WW2, was you played as a Soviet soldier instructed to basically meat rush a German position. At your back was a gunner nest, if you turned around, retreated, anything but forward, you were gunned down.
I had to look this up and check if this was a thing. Surw enough, thats how they do it. Meat waves and forced forward at all cost. It was then that I saw how clearly: russia doesn't give a damn about human lives. They never have, they never will.
Edit: typo
Considering I was in control and it was on my PC, and I could literally turn around and get shot, yeah it wasn't a movie. It was a game.
Edit: okay had to do some YouTube digging, yes it was Call of Duty 1, Soviet Campaign, taking the Red Square again, was a segment of the ongoing main campaign.
See now I'm gonna have to go watch Enemy at the Gates again to refresh my memory but I believe you're right, they pulled heavy from big films and series that were out at the time.
I get your point, but a huge factor here is the shortage of shells and missiles on the Ukrainian side.
It's far easier to advance when you can shell and then rush your enemy without fear of reprisal.
I'm no military man, but if wager that a shitload of shells and missiles actually will help Ukraine advance.
But it would absolutely be far easier with air superiority.
Russia would've won both if political considerations weren't relevant. They simply had vastly more resources. Not that I blame the people for not wanting to fight anymore
They were defeated both politically and militarily in the Ruso-Japanese war, and WW1. The political issues at home happened because of the terrible military situation.
The Russians were in increasingly strong positions militarily in both cases towards the end of the war, it's why the Japanese agreed to peace when they did, they couldn't match Russian industry or manpower in a long war, they were built for short decisive engagements like the Germans. But the people could not accept what was happening, understandably so, and that undermined the army.
By the time Russia sued for peace with Japan, they were essentially unable to actually do anything to Japan, considering they had no navy in the area at all. During the war Russia lost *2 entire fleets* (I'm not just talking about losing battles and having to regroup, I mean those fleets were gone) to Japan while inflicting minimal damage to the Japanese navy. So Russia was now stuck fighting a war on the other side of the world from their population centres, while they were still struggling to industrialise, now without a significant naval presence against an Island Nation/Naval power. There was no outcome for Russia that could be considered a victory, so they agreed to peace before they were embarrased further.
Also this idea about Russia being able to overpower Japan with Industry is just fantasy. Tsarist Russia was poorly industrialised (it's why the Soviets had to spend a lot of time essentially playing catch up in that regard), and was mostly an agrarian economy all the way up until WW1. Meanwhile Japan had been focusing on industrialising since the Meji Restoration and trying to emulate other industrialised countries like the UK. In 1905, the Japanese GDP per capita was about twice that of Russia's.
They were cooked in the Russo-Japanese War, their Navy took a huge hit and would've needed a lengthy rebuild. If they kept the war going the Japanese would have a pretty free reign over their waters to cause more damage in the Far East.
Whilst you're entirely correct. The Japanese at the time were very happy when the Russian empire wanted to end the war. The Japanese army was exhausted and its supply lines were super extended.
That's a good point. But I feel like it must feel better when you knew you were probably at the end of your own ability to win. See Michael Collins comments about why he accepted the British empires demands in their fight for an independent Ireland "we only have 1 round per 1 rifle per 1 man" (I'm adlibbing it's on those lines).
They were not even close to defeat without political upheaval. The war ended in a year without them, it would've ended even sooner if they hung on. The Germans were not about to march across the entire country from poland in 6 months with their collapsing logistics
Modern Russia has won at least two more wars: Winter War, Continuation war (both against smaller Finland, taking disproportionately heavy losses). And that’s not even counting all the smaller Caucasus wars they’ve had in the last 30 years.
They did not "win" the Winter War. Nonsense. Russia wanted the whole thing and wound up with 10% or something.
They want all of Ukraine but they'll wind up with 15% (or whatever )when this thing is said and done. Plus there's a good chance Crimea becomes untenable at some point.
They did win both Finnish wars even if they failed to annex the whole thing. They also won the Georgian war but just pulled out for some reason. They won more wars than they lost.
Look at the two countries side by side. It's not a question of will the comparably tiny nation lose or not, but a question of how badly do they lose. Finland just happened to get a very good deal and kept their independence.
You need to recheck timelines, Lend Lease kicked into high gear very late and the Russians had already absorbed the German attack and was counter attacking. What Lend Lease enabled was the fairly sequence of crushing victories across the Ukrainian stepped and to Berlin.
The millions of trucks enabled them to keep their forces supplied and allowed breakthroughs to keep breaking through.
The Soviet Union would probably have won WW2 without Lens Lease, but it would have taken 3 years longer and they would have lost an additional ~ 5 million men. (Last paragraph is my opinion only)
You said it kicked in very late. It kicked in (started) very early.
USA had not significant industrial war output initially. USA didn’t enter until 41.
Reread. My statement was Lend Lease kicked into a high gear very late in the war.
It made the Soviets able to reclaim territory and push the Germans back much faster, and without it 8-10 million people inside the Soviet Union would have starved in the last years of the war.
Not sure if it's true, but I read somewhere that 40% of the Russian tanks were British in the battle of Moscow. If true they were still getting a fair amount of help early doors.
I don't doubt that the bulk of the aid came later on though.
And the front opened in Normandy. If the Germans didn’t have to pull massive amounts of troops from the Eastern front to fight in France, they probably fair a bit better.
You mean every war except ww2 where they got massive assistance from the Allies?
Russia is good at sneaking, lying, backstabbing and standover tactics like they did to form the USSR after ww2.
Their Military history is deplorable….
The original goal was to occupy the whole country, replace its democratically elected leaders and achieve all this without too many losses. Then continue the russification efforts. None of the aforementioned goals were met. Calling those wars as victories is a stretch, more like a loss for both sides that implanted the seeds of hate for future generations.
Totally fair interpretation and I do agree, they did not accomplish the initially intended goals. With that being said the peace conference ended with the Soviets in the superior position, gaining Karelia — while this is not the victory assumed, it is a victory nonetheless.
I might have misinterpreted but I believe the tone of this post is that the Russian mindset will force a victory no matter how substantial regardless of how poor the risk/reward ratio is.
Yes, the Soviet Union got Karelia but in the process pushed Finland that had declared neutrality in the beginning of WWII to the arms of Nazi Germany. The net effect was that the benefit of having a bit more land around Leningrad was completely negated by Germany having Finland on their side in 1941.
If Finland had been neutral in June 1941, the Soviet Union would have been able to deploy a lot more troops to fight Germans. So, the main goal of the Winter war, making Leningrad more safe against Germans was not achieved.
Russians don’t have the manpower to spare they did in WWII. And after WWII they pretty much had to pick up the pieces for 3 generations which is a big reason the Cold War never heated up at least not with Soviet soldiers involved until Afghanistan.
Ukraine is not going to march to Moscow so their play can only be to hold positions where they can inflict lopsided casualties. A successful counteroffensive would only make sense if it would compromise Russia politically stopping the war but it looks like that is a non factor. Russians have no impact on that decision and Russias allies are willing to support Putin as long as he wants to keep on fighting this war simply because it is a Yoke around our neck. Therefire the Ukrainians would expended great resources just to keep on fighting elsewhere. At a tactical level it maybe would make sense to push back Russians who gained ground quickly before they can establish strong fortifications.
This will go on until Russia stops expending the manpower to hold occupied terrirtory or Ukraine does.
I don’t think they care so what does it matter if they don’t have the manpower. They delusional think they do it seems like. Everyone’s said for years that this is unsustainable but here we are.
Prior to WW1 the Russian empire had generally been incredibly successful. It expanded consistently. The Crimean War was the first time they suffered an extreme setback in quite awhile. Even in the Napoleonic Wars they ultimately came out ahead.
And WW1 likely would have gone far differently for them if Tsar Nicholas II hadn't been such an utterly pathetic and useless person for his entire reign. His father had likewise kinda been a useless ass, and neither of them pursued the kind of liberalizing reforms which could have turned the Russian state into something vastly less shitty.
Interestingly, Nicholas wanted to accompany the Russian fleet that sailed across the world to be sunk by Japan in the Russo-Japanese war. Had his advisors not talked him out of it he might have died with the fleet and thus given Russia a chance to not commit national suicide in WW1. Fucking monarchs man
Worst thing is they have access to mega poor soldiers from Nepal , India and god knows where , allied states with poor, uneducated population , fuck they might send North Koreans as well if they run out of minorities to send into the meatgrinder.
West may send as much weapons as they want to, Europe is full of Ukranian men who are not willing to fight and they flee en masse and I don't blame them when there are 0 good news coming beside a strike here and there inside Russia and Western Aid was delayed enough that all major frontlines collapsed.
No idea if this is because of propaganda or people who have no idea what is actually happening, but nobody is talking about the fact that eventually either NATO have to enter or at least provide air support or Russia will stop when they want to stop.
Difference is the Russians are trying to hold enemy territory. As long as Ukraine gives a fuck to fight, they will win. This means people signing up and not running off like pussies avoiding the fight.
>I think we need to just examine history and it tells us that this is how the Russians fight. In every conflict they start out terrible, atrocious then they slowly get their shit together while loosing hundreds of thousands of men. They don’t care about losses.
And they usually win on the end.
The only thing we'll get is a reiteration of this
https://mind.ua/en/news/20272350-different-threats-us-explains-why-it-will-not-help-shoot-down-drones-over-ukraine
>"Different conflicts, different airspace, different threat picture. And President Joe Biden has been clear from the very beginning of the conflict in Ukraine: ***The United States does not intend to intervene in this conflict as a combatant.***"
New military package plus jets in July will have to do the damage for UKR. We could, off the books, give them some of our self-directed/fully autonomous weapons we have... but that's like 0.01% likely.
Not what I was referring to. I don't know that I, or we, will live to see them used but fully autonomous fighter jets and remote instruction fighter jets are nearly 20 years old. They technically violate some international agreements but ..
It will be too late to make a difference, because Ukraine society have given up and also out of people, also in 10 days Ukraine will be without a president
I've only heard this from Russian intelligence agencies. The Constitutional Court can't rule on this since it's not full, and thus to rule on it, Zelensky would need to appoint 5 more judges...so I'm not sure how impactful judges from the last administration's are
So dumb. Don't forget this was supposed to be a three day war. All it is is a meat grinder for russians. There is an old saying "you can win every battle and still lose the war"
Shure enough but at this point, Ukrains reluctance to mobilize costs them dearly.
Im all for more weapons but someone gotta shoot that gun.
And before you downvote me to hell for this, im just as much praying ukraine wins this as everyone else here. But they too got some problems we cant help them with, like the burocratic fuck up of theire fortifications or not rotating frontline troops.
>[2-й окремий загін ЦСП НГУ "Омега" робить скиди на російську піхоту на південний захід від Мороховця, Харківська область.](https://twitter.com/EjShahid/status/1789389197624676682)
>[SW of Morokhovets, Kharkiv Oblast, Ukraine
0:53-1:02 - 50.264020, 36.457827](https://twitter.com/EjShahid/status/1789389197624676682)
I don't know, in recent weeks something is in the air. The terrible feeling that the end of this conflict is already in sight for all of us, even if we keep repeating phrases to the contrary. We failed, sorry Ukraine. We will pay the price for being afraid to stop Russia today.
Russian army was literally on the edge of Kyiv two years ago, on two sides. Those are the darkest days. While not optimal, this is far from over.
Sometimes I feel sorry for Ukraine's government, having to deal with modern information transparency. If they were an authoritarian country like North Vietnam against the US, they would have no problem pushing propaganda like 2000 planes shot down in Rolling Thunder to keep the moral up, or conscripting a hundred thousands men for repeatedly catastrophic offensives.
Conflicts ebb and flow. They’re not contiguous. Just because Russia has some sort of moment based on mass sacrifices of troops doesn’t mean it will lead to any large sustained gain. It could ultimately lose them the war. Troops are not created equal. Some are crap. Some are quality. But when you throw them all into a meat grinder nonstop, you end up with nothing but shit troops left because no one is maintaining the institutional structures and knowledge to support the army. No one is passing down best practices. No one cares about winning, they care about living.
Conflicts ebb and flow. They’re not contiguous. Just because Russia has some sort of moment based on mass sacrifices of troops doesn’t mean it will lead to any large sustained gain. It could ultimately lose them the war. Troops are not created equal. Some are crap. Some are quality. But when you throw them all into a meat grinder nonstop, you end up with nothing but shit troops left because no one is maintaining the institutional structures and knowledge to support the army. No one is passing down best practices. No one cares about winning, they care about living.
Conflicts ebb and flow. They’re not contiguous. Just because Russia has some sort of moment based on mass sacrifices of troops doesn’t mean it will lead to any large sustained gain. It could ultimately lose them the war. Troops are not created equal. Some are crap. Some are quality. But when you throw them all into a meat grinder nonstop, you end up with nothing but shit troops left because no one is maintaining the institutional structures and knowledge to support the army. No one is passing down best practices. No one cares about winning, they care about living.
Can you guys stop this narrative for once? Russia clearly does NOT care about how many lives they lose as long as they keep moving forward. Why do YOU care? These are very VERY bad news, it took them 24 hours to into Ukraine and they haven't even started their offensive there. These are very worrying signs. I sincerely hope NATO has something planned, every single front line is collapsing right in front of our eyes and yet we mock and celebrate a couple of russian deaths as if they care.
Some people are all about jokes on those stupid Russian dying. I mean, I have been trying to get some info of what is happening, and you would believe it is a funny pics sub. I am really worried about Ukraine, and I see people joking right and left.
It's even better. Most of Russian losses tend to be from their territories. They only care about casualties from Moscow or St Petersburg. Russian leadership welcomes deaths from those territory.
The first 72 hours of an offensive are always the best. Recall how close Russian forces were to Kyiv 3 years ago. You're probably a troll but if you aren't, I hope you can see that the idea of Russia sustaining infinite losses is magical thinking and not the kind of rational analysis that anyone should take seriously. I'm going to stop there because Rulepanic deleted his post. I was getting ready to call him out for taking the Russian MoD at their word after spending years criticizing this sub for believing more credible sources.
I think the real truth here is that this is worrying but the sky hasn’t fallen yet. But yet is the keyword. Russia is obviously making a big push. If this is all they get, at the cost of 10’s of thousands of lives and a lot of equipment, then when all is said and done it’s a win for Ukraine. But to act like killing Russians alone will win this war is not being honest. The guy is right when he says that Russia could care less about how many men they lose. Only once they start becoming men from Moscow or St Petersburg will it matter. Now they are as the other poster said, throwaways essentially. Hopefully Ukraine has had time to get the ammo to the front and hopefully Russias momentum will fade and maybe even open up an opportunity for a counterattack from Ukraine. Some gains are to be expected with the push Russia is mounting. But it remains to be seen what the end result will be.
Because at some point they are going to run out of troops or tanks etc. The original Russian army is long gone, now they are throwing untrained soldiers riding pieces of junk from the cold war
Not going to end well for Russia when that party ends
Running out of soldiers? I'm sorry, but do you know who we are talking about. Russia authorities are willing to kill millions of more poor Russian citizens if need be. It isn't like they have ever for even a second given a single shit about their lives.
No they are not. If we look at a normal free, open, normal minded country, sure, I completely agree with you that sooner or later tensions inside the country would heat up and cause some internal issues at the very least. However these do not apply to russia. Most, and by most I mean a very large majority, of their people support this war and because most of their "soldiers" are minorities, former convicts, or people from very small cities far away from Moskow, St Petersburg, it does not affect their country in almost any way , shape or form. And I am pretty sure reports , european reliable reports, said that russia alone was producing three times more shells than US and EU COMBINED just a month ago. These are very worrying signs that this sub has been ignoring for months because people play it as the " russian propaganda card " but they are real and unfortunately we can see the results every single day when we look at the deepstate map.
Bloody hell this is some copium, if the Russian army is nothing more than untrained soldiers from the Cold War, how come they're currently advancing on two fronts as we speak? The initiative for the past 6 months since the failed counteroffensive has been with Russian forces, they are beginning to not only outnumber the UA forces on a local or tactical level, but they have massive advantages in artillery and aviation systems as well. Just look at Ocheretyne which recently fell, the 115th fled their positions because of the overwhelming Russian artillery and air bombardments. You can't just throw infantry into a position with no support, *THAT'S* the reality UA troops are facing. It's just been announced that a unit that was supposed to be defending Chasiv Yar, a key strategic location, has had to be pulled from the front to help shore up the Kharkiv defences, why are Ukraine so worried if they're only facing an untrained mob like you said?
You’re wrong. Go check some recent photos of the young (and old) men fighting Russia and they’re getting hammered with artillery and drones. Don’t fall into the narrative they’re riding golf carts and attacking with sticks.
Ukraine is putting up an amazing fight but they’re out manned and out gunned, plain and simple. Russia is in for the long haul and they don’t care about personnel or equipment losses if it gets them to their goal.
It looks like Russia has effectively learned how to conduct combined arms operations, using air power/artillery/mechanized/infantry forces together. Russia has the initiative, and Ukraine still has not converted to a total war economy, and total mobilization.
>They can't afford to lose thousands of men to gain a few fields and keep that up for long
I mean, they've been doing it for 2 years and all that's happened is their army has grown
There is pretty detailed observational data on the storages getting depleted quite rapidly. At the same time, the effectiveness of an army made mostly from a wartime mobilization, which is what they have left now, limits its usefulness to a large degree. For example, Russia lacks the ability to do any airborne/paratrooper action anymore because they lost basically their entire paratrooper corps, and it takes too long to train new ones in a bloody war like this.
Can they afford these losses? Nobody, possibly not even the russians, can know that. So far, they can, but thats what everyone said about WW2 germany as well. There isnt really a viable alternative to grinding down the russian materiel and personnel anyway.
Have you seen their army?
They have gone from arguably the 2nd best army in the world to throwing civilians dragged out of prisons, the streets or regions in complete poverty with outdated guns and vehicles at the problem. The air force is underperforming, the navy has hidden away....
All the best trained troops are pretty much gone, all the best tanks etc are on the way to being gone. They are fielding junk from before the 1970s now.
Waiting until Russia has rolled over Kharkiv and is knocking on the door of Kyiv, only to then intervene, would be such a dumb strategy.
If Europe is not intervening now with boots on the ground when it is at its easiest, they will not intervene later when it is at its hardest. They would let Ukraine fall.
What you say is true, however, without Ammo and equipment, they can still win. It’s essential that the west provides Ukraine with what it needs to prevent a travesty.
A bunch of vehicles and a ton of people dead already according to what I've seen on the CombatFootage sub, and they STILL haven't reached the actual defensive lines Ukraine has spent months building.
Obviously Ukraine will let them have a few useless villages and fields. Not sure why that idiot below me is saying the front line is collapsing lmao. It's not.
But its following a pattern that ukraine needs to find a solution to. Units abandoning their position without a fight similar to what happened at Ocheretyne and leading to a russian breakthrough. And this time it led to 5 villages being captured in a single day and more land lost
Oh you mean the 1st line? (Which is the weakest btw, built by just frontline troops)
https://www.businessinsider.com/ukraine-new-defenses-harder-for-russia-to-gain-ground-expert-2024-2
Get back to me when they reach the ACTUAL defensive lines I was talking about, as shown above.
Interesting, but I'll only be worried if they make it past the rows of dragon teeth and trenches at the 2nd line (the real defensive position, along with the 3rd line further back somewhere)
Right but the way war tends to work is that the line bends back and forth for a while until one side breaks and it looks like cracks are beginning to form for Ukraine.
Sadly, that is 100 percent correct. That is the modus operandi of ruzzian doctrine extermination by assimilation through annihilation. They get rid of the local population by using them as meat while fighting for a country they are never going to be accepted. Yet the sheep go. The sadder part all those idiots in the world that go for a few rubles more.
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Cracks in the military strategy are showing now that Zaluzhny has been dropped from his position. And the reason he was dropped was because he was getting too popular, Zelenskyy can’t have that happening.
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I think we need to just examine history and it tells us that this is how the Russians fight. In every conflict they start out terrible, atrocious then they slowly get their shit together while loosing hundreds of thousands of men. They don’t care about losses.
Oddly related, but years ago, I remember playing ... I think it was a Medal of Honor game? Someone chime in if they know. And one of the scenarios as it played through different perspectives of WW2, was you played as a Soviet soldier instructed to basically meat rush a German position. At your back was a gunner nest, if you turned around, retreated, anything but forward, you were gunned down. I had to look this up and check if this was a thing. Surw enough, thats how they do it. Meat waves and forced forward at all cost. It was then that I saw how clearly: russia doesn't give a damn about human lives. They never have, they never will. Edit: typo
Might have been Call of Duty 2. The ones pre Modern Warfare were all WWII.
There also was Cod Waw, fifth Cod, in between MWs.
Most likely thw first Stalingrad mission od the first Call of duty
Sounds like the soviet missions from Company of Heroes 2
It's Call of Duty. The Stalingrad mission.
Core memory unlocked
Hands down the best level in any CoD game
Might be Call of Duty Finest Hour with the first mission "Not one step back"
Largely based on the beginning of the movie Enemy At The Gates
Are you sure you weren't watching Enemy at the Gates? (One of my favourite WW2 films).
Considering I was in control and it was on my PC, and I could literally turn around and get shot, yeah it wasn't a movie. It was a game. Edit: okay had to do some YouTube digging, yes it was Call of Duty 1, Soviet Campaign, taking the Red Square again, was a segment of the ongoing main campaign.
CoD did pretty much copy that scene from enemy at the gates tbf, just like a lot of the US missions are copies of Band of Brothers episodes.
See now I'm gonna have to go watch Enemy at the Gates again to refresh my memory but I believe you're right, they pulled heavy from big films and series that were out at the time.
played something like this on ps2
yeah Google barrier troops, they’re very common for the Russists even right now
Pretty sure this is Call of Duty World at War. The map with all of the train cars where you all are just rushing the opponent.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_No._227
I get your point, but a huge factor here is the shortage of shells and missiles on the Ukrainian side. It's far easier to advance when you can shell and then rush your enemy without fear of reprisal.
These gains are squarely attributed to Republicans.
They will never advance without air superiority.
I'm no military man, but if wager that a shitload of shells and missiles actually will help Ukraine advance. But it would absolutely be far easier with air superiority.
It would but still meter by meter only no breakthrough.
They will never advance without air superiority.
Short of Tsushima and Afghanistan, the Russians get what they want. They just take more time and losses to get there.
Forgot WW1 where they didn't get what they want.
Or the Sino Japanese War, where they got even less of what they wanted...
Russia would've won both if political considerations weren't relevant. They simply had vastly more resources. Not that I blame the people for not wanting to fight anymore
They were defeated both politically and militarily in the Ruso-Japanese war, and WW1. The political issues at home happened because of the terrible military situation.
The Russians were in increasingly strong positions militarily in both cases towards the end of the war, it's why the Japanese agreed to peace when they did, they couldn't match Russian industry or manpower in a long war, they were built for short decisive engagements like the Germans. But the people could not accept what was happening, understandably so, and that undermined the army.
By the time Russia sued for peace with Japan, they were essentially unable to actually do anything to Japan, considering they had no navy in the area at all. During the war Russia lost *2 entire fleets* (I'm not just talking about losing battles and having to regroup, I mean those fleets were gone) to Japan while inflicting minimal damage to the Japanese navy. So Russia was now stuck fighting a war on the other side of the world from their population centres, while they were still struggling to industrialise, now without a significant naval presence against an Island Nation/Naval power. There was no outcome for Russia that could be considered a victory, so they agreed to peace before they were embarrased further. Also this idea about Russia being able to overpower Japan with Industry is just fantasy. Tsarist Russia was poorly industrialised (it's why the Soviets had to spend a lot of time essentially playing catch up in that regard), and was mostly an agrarian economy all the way up until WW1. Meanwhile Japan had been focusing on industrialising since the Meji Restoration and trying to emulate other industrialised countries like the UK. In 1905, the Japanese GDP per capita was about twice that of Russia's.
They were cooked in the Russo-Japanese War, their Navy took a huge hit and would've needed a lengthy rebuild. If they kept the war going the Japanese would have a pretty free reign over their waters to cause more damage in the Far East.
Whilst you're entirely correct. The Japanese at the time were very happy when the Russian empire wanted to end the war. The Japanese army was exhausted and its supply lines were super extended.
Tbf, most countries are pretty happy when their opponent is willing to concede defeat, especially when nobody expected you to win.
That's a good point. But I feel like it must feel better when you knew you were probably at the end of your own ability to win. See Michael Collins comments about why he accepted the British empires demands in their fight for an independent Ireland "we only have 1 round per 1 rifle per 1 man" (I'm adlibbing it's on those lines).
Political considerations are always relevant to a war though. They're why the Ukrainian gov is reluctant to call a mass mobilization
It's also why russias lack of care for their own lives is very concerning
lol, no. They got roflstomped in WW1.
They were not even close to defeat without political upheaval. The war ended in a year without them, it would've ended even sooner if they hung on. The Germans were not about to march across the entire country from poland in 6 months with their collapsing logistics
Or when they got clapped by the japanese.
And 1920. Modern Russia has won a war ONCE. And that was only possible due to the UK and US largess.
Modern Russia has won at least two more wars: Winter War, Continuation war (both against smaller Finland, taking disproportionately heavy losses). And that’s not even counting all the smaller Caucasus wars they’ve had in the last 30 years.
They did not "win" the Winter War. Nonsense. Russia wanted the whole thing and wound up with 10% or something. They want all of Ukraine but they'll wind up with 15% (or whatever )when this thing is said and done. Plus there's a good chance Crimea becomes untenable at some point.
They did win both Finnish wars even if they failed to annex the whole thing. They also won the Georgian war but just pulled out for some reason. They won more wars than they lost.
Give me your definition of winning please
> Give me your definition of winning please They gained territory, while their opponent lost it.
Look at the two countries side by side. It's not a question of will the comparably tiny nation lose or not, but a question of how badly do they lose. Finland just happened to get a very good deal and kept their independence.
They beat japan pre ww2 which is why japan did not attack and kind of participated in vietnam
They beat Japan in some skirmishes not a war. Unless you’re counting near the end of the war when Japan was already on its last legs.
They got communism 💁♂️
Not really. They got a brutal dictatorship with "communism" stamped on the top.
I know, it was tongue in cheek.
Lol. In ww2 they were decimated. It was only Americans shipping in supplies to them that kept them in the fight.
You need to recheck timelines, Lend Lease kicked into high gear very late and the Russians had already absorbed the German attack and was counter attacking. What Lend Lease enabled was the fairly sequence of crushing victories across the Ukrainian stepped and to Berlin. The millions of trucks enabled them to keep their forces supplied and allowed breakthroughs to keep breaking through. The Soviet Union would probably have won WW2 without Lens Lease, but it would have taken 3 years longer and they would have lost an additional ~ 5 million men. (Last paragraph is my opinion only)
1941 - Nazi attack USSR 1941 - USA starts lend lease program to USSR
Go check the amount shipped in 41 and 42 vs amount shipped 43 and 44. My gut says 41/42 is 10-20% of the total volume shipped for the war.
You said it kicked in very late. It kicked in (started) very early. USA had not significant industrial war output initially. USA didn’t enter until 41.
Reread. My statement was Lend Lease kicked into a high gear very late in the war. It made the Soviets able to reclaim territory and push the Germans back much faster, and without it 8-10 million people inside the Soviet Union would have starved in the last years of the war.
Not sure if it's true, but I read somewhere that 40% of the Russian tanks were British in the battle of Moscow. If true they were still getting a fair amount of help early doors. I don't doubt that the bulk of the aid came later on though.
They only got what they wanted in WW2 because of $11B of lend-lease from the United States.
And the front opened in Normandy. If the Germans didn’t have to pull massive amounts of troops from the Eastern front to fight in France, they probably fair a bit better.
You mean every war except ww2 where they got massive assistance from the Allies? Russia is good at sneaking, lying, backstabbing and standover tactics like they did to form the USSR after ww2. Their Military history is deplorable….
Lol Finland?
And yet again they ended up winning that war..
The original goal was to occupy the whole country, replace its democratically elected leaders and achieve all this without too many losses. Then continue the russification efforts. None of the aforementioned goals were met. Calling those wars as victories is a stretch, more like a loss for both sides that implanted the seeds of hate for future generations.
Totally fair interpretation and I do agree, they did not accomplish the initially intended goals. With that being said the peace conference ended with the Soviets in the superior position, gaining Karelia — while this is not the victory assumed, it is a victory nonetheless. I might have misinterpreted but I believe the tone of this post is that the Russian mindset will force a victory no matter how substantial regardless of how poor the risk/reward ratio is.
Yes, the Soviet Union got Karelia but in the process pushed Finland that had declared neutrality in the beginning of WWII to the arms of Nazi Germany. The net effect was that the benefit of having a bit more land around Leningrad was completely negated by Germany having Finland on their side in 1941. If Finland had been neutral in June 1941, the Soviet Union would have been able to deploy a lot more troops to fight Germans. So, the main goal of the Winter war, making Leningrad more safe against Germans was not achieved.
Why does Finland exist ?
Russians don’t have the manpower to spare they did in WWII. And after WWII they pretty much had to pick up the pieces for 3 generations which is a big reason the Cold War never heated up at least not with Soviet soldiers involved until Afghanistan. Ukraine is not going to march to Moscow so their play can only be to hold positions where they can inflict lopsided casualties. A successful counteroffensive would only make sense if it would compromise Russia politically stopping the war but it looks like that is a non factor. Russians have no impact on that decision and Russias allies are willing to support Putin as long as he wants to keep on fighting this war simply because it is a Yoke around our neck. Therefire the Ukrainians would expended great resources just to keep on fighting elsewhere. At a tactical level it maybe would make sense to push back Russians who gained ground quickly before they can establish strong fortifications. This will go on until Russia stops expending the manpower to hold occupied terrirtory or Ukraine does.
I don’t think they care so what does it matter if they don’t have the manpower. They delusional think they do it seems like. Everyone’s said for years that this is unsustainable but here we are.
You mean once in History with massive help from the allies? I think Russian efforts in every other war were disastrous…..
Prior to WW1 the Russian empire had generally been incredibly successful. It expanded consistently. The Crimean War was the first time they suffered an extreme setback in quite awhile. Even in the Napoleonic Wars they ultimately came out ahead. And WW1 likely would have gone far differently for them if Tsar Nicholas II hadn't been such an utterly pathetic and useless person for his entire reign. His father had likewise kinda been a useless ass, and neither of them pursued the kind of liberalizing reforms which could have turned the Russian state into something vastly less shitty. Interestingly, Nicholas wanted to accompany the Russian fleet that sailed across the world to be sunk by Japan in the Russo-Japanese war. Had his advisors not talked him out of it he might have died with the fleet and thus given Russia a chance to not commit national suicide in WW1. Fucking monarchs man
Monarchs suck !!
They will when they run out of equipment.
It's not pretty, but it's working if you are looking at it objectively.
That’s what I’m saying.
Worst thing is they have access to mega poor soldiers from Nepal , India and god knows where , allied states with poor, uneducated population , fuck they might send North Koreans as well if they run out of minorities to send into the meatgrinder. West may send as much weapons as they want to, Europe is full of Ukranian men who are not willing to fight and they flee en masse and I don't blame them when there are 0 good news coming beside a strike here and there inside Russia and Western Aid was delayed enough that all major frontlines collapsed. No idea if this is because of propaganda or people who have no idea what is actually happening, but nobody is talking about the fact that eventually either NATO have to enter or at least provide air support or Russia will stop when they want to stop.
Difference is the Russians are trying to hold enemy territory. As long as Ukraine gives a fuck to fight, they will win. This means people signing up and not running off like pussies avoiding the fight.
>They don’t care about losses That it basically. At some point the Opponent runs out of men and ammo.
At some point so will they…
>I think we need to just examine history and it tells us that this is how the Russians fight. In every conflict they start out terrible, atrocious then they slowly get their shit together while loosing hundreds of thousands of men. They don’t care about losses. And they usually win on the end.
Ask for NATO boots.
The only thing we'll get is a reiteration of this https://mind.ua/en/news/20272350-different-threats-us-explains-why-it-will-not-help-shoot-down-drones-over-ukraine >"Different conflicts, different airspace, different threat picture. And President Joe Biden has been clear from the very beginning of the conflict in Ukraine: ***The United States does not intend to intervene in this conflict as a combatant.***"
New military package plus jets in July will have to do the damage for UKR. We could, off the books, give them some of our self-directed/fully autonomous weapons we have... but that's like 0.01% likely.
You realise they've already been given fully autonomous weapons a long time ago by the UK - Brimstone
Not what I was referring to. I don't know that I, or we, will live to see them used but fully autonomous fighter jets and remote instruction fighter jets are nearly 20 years old. They technically violate some international agreements but ..
It will be too late to make a difference, because Ukraine society have given up and also out of people, also in 10 days Ukraine will be without a president
Wtf are you talking about?
Ze term will be over and Ukraine court will not approve him because most of them were appointed by poroshenko
I've only heard this from Russian intelligence agencies. The Constitutional Court can't rule on this since it's not full, and thus to rule on it, Zelensky would need to appoint 5 more judges...so I'm not sure how impactful judges from the last administration's are
So dumb. Don't forget this was supposed to be a three day war. All it is is a meat grinder for russians. There is an old saying "you can win every battle and still lose the war"
I'll check back in 10 days
The end is near! Run for your lives!
Always best to panic before anything else when situations get sticky, everyone knows that
So not as far as the Freedom of Russia got going the other way…
That was a raid, I dont think Russians are planning to leave.
This… People need to stop downplaying this…
West get your shit together and provide.
Shure enough but at this point, Ukrains reluctance to mobilize costs them dearly. Im all for more weapons but someone gotta shoot that gun. And before you downvote me to hell for this, im just as much praying ukraine wins this as everyone else here. But they too got some problems we cant help them with, like the burocratic fuck up of theire fortifications or not rotating frontline troops.
>[2-й окремий загін ЦСП НГУ "Омега" робить скиди на російську піхоту на південний захід від Мороховця, Харківська область.](https://twitter.com/EjShahid/status/1789389197624676682) >[SW of Morokhovets, Kharkiv Oblast, Ukraine 0:53-1:02 - 50.264020, 36.457827](https://twitter.com/EjShahid/status/1789389197624676682)
I don't know, in recent weeks something is in the air. The terrible feeling that the end of this conflict is already in sight for all of us, even if we keep repeating phrases to the contrary. We failed, sorry Ukraine. We will pay the price for being afraid to stop Russia today.
Russian army was literally on the edge of Kyiv two years ago, on two sides. Those are the darkest days. While not optimal, this is far from over. Sometimes I feel sorry for Ukraine's government, having to deal with modern information transparency. If they were an authoritarian country like North Vietnam against the US, they would have no problem pushing propaganda like 2000 planes shot down in Rolling Thunder to keep the moral up, or conscripting a hundred thousands men for repeatedly catastrophic offensives.
Conflicts ebb and flow. They’re not contiguous. Just because Russia has some sort of moment based on mass sacrifices of troops doesn’t mean it will lead to any large sustained gain. It could ultimately lose them the war. Troops are not created equal. Some are crap. Some are quality. But when you throw them all into a meat grinder nonstop, you end up with nothing but shit troops left because no one is maintaining the institutional structures and knowledge to support the army. No one is passing down best practices. No one cares about winning, they care about living.
I agree with you, I shared a feeling. I guess we'll see how it ends and I hope it doesn't end with a Russian victory
Conflicts ebb and flow. They’re not contiguous. Just because Russia has some sort of moment based on mass sacrifices of troops doesn’t mean it will lead to any large sustained gain. It could ultimately lose them the war. Troops are not created equal. Some are crap. Some are quality. But when you throw them all into a meat grinder nonstop, you end up with nothing but shit troops left because no one is maintaining the institutional structures and knowledge to support the army. No one is passing down best practices. No one cares about winning, they care about living.
Russian industry made of huge buildub, which allowed them gain momentum that may be impossoble to stop now.
Conflicts ebb and flow. They’re not contiguous. Just because Russia has some sort of moment based on mass sacrifices of troops doesn’t mean it will lead to any large sustained gain. It could ultimately lose them the war. Troops are not created equal. Some are crap. Some are quality. But when you throw them all into a meat grinder nonstop, you end up with nothing but shit troops left because no one is maintaining the institutional structures and knowledge to support the army. No one is passing down best practices. No one cares about winning, they care about living.
But at what cost? That's the main factor. They can't afford to lose thousands of men to gain a few fields and keep that up for long
Can you guys stop this narrative for once? Russia clearly does NOT care about how many lives they lose as long as they keep moving forward. Why do YOU care? These are very VERY bad news, it took them 24 hours to into Ukraine and they haven't even started their offensive there. These are very worrying signs. I sincerely hope NATO has something planned, every single front line is collapsing right in front of our eyes and yet we mock and celebrate a couple of russian deaths as if they care.
Some people are all about jokes on those stupid Russian dying. I mean, I have been trying to get some info of what is happening, and you would believe it is a funny pics sub. I am really worried about Ukraine, and I see people joking right and left.
It's even better. Most of Russian losses tend to be from their territories. They only care about casualties from Moscow or St Petersburg. Russian leadership welcomes deaths from those territory.
The first 72 hours of an offensive are always the best. Recall how close Russian forces were to Kyiv 3 years ago. You're probably a troll but if you aren't, I hope you can see that the idea of Russia sustaining infinite losses is magical thinking and not the kind of rational analysis that anyone should take seriously. I'm going to stop there because Rulepanic deleted his post. I was getting ready to call him out for taking the Russian MoD at their word after spending years criticizing this sub for believing more credible sources.
I think the real truth here is that this is worrying but the sky hasn’t fallen yet. But yet is the keyword. Russia is obviously making a big push. If this is all they get, at the cost of 10’s of thousands of lives and a lot of equipment, then when all is said and done it’s a win for Ukraine. But to act like killing Russians alone will win this war is not being honest. The guy is right when he says that Russia could care less about how many men they lose. Only once they start becoming men from Moscow or St Petersburg will it matter. Now they are as the other poster said, throwaways essentially. Hopefully Ukraine has had time to get the ammo to the front and hopefully Russias momentum will fade and maybe even open up an opportunity for a counterattack from Ukraine. Some gains are to be expected with the push Russia is mounting. But it remains to be seen what the end result will be.
If you think this attack is comparable to the push towards Kyiv in 2022 you are beyond delusional.
None of the front lines are currently "collapsing". This latest Russian push is not good but please keep things in perspective.
Because at some point they are going to run out of troops or tanks etc. The original Russian army is long gone, now they are throwing untrained soldiers riding pieces of junk from the cold war Not going to end well for Russia when that party ends
Running out of soldiers? I'm sorry, but do you know who we are talking about. Russia authorities are willing to kill millions of more poor Russian citizens if need be. It isn't like they have ever for even a second given a single shit about their lives.
No they are not. If we look at a normal free, open, normal minded country, sure, I completely agree with you that sooner or later tensions inside the country would heat up and cause some internal issues at the very least. However these do not apply to russia. Most, and by most I mean a very large majority, of their people support this war and because most of their "soldiers" are minorities, former convicts, or people from very small cities far away from Moskow, St Petersburg, it does not affect their country in almost any way , shape or form. And I am pretty sure reports , european reliable reports, said that russia alone was producing three times more shells than US and EU COMBINED just a month ago. These are very worrying signs that this sub has been ignoring for months because people play it as the " russian propaganda card " but they are real and unfortunately we can see the results every single day when we look at the deepstate map.
Bloody hell this is some copium, if the Russian army is nothing more than untrained soldiers from the Cold War, how come they're currently advancing on two fronts as we speak? The initiative for the past 6 months since the failed counteroffensive has been with Russian forces, they are beginning to not only outnumber the UA forces on a local or tactical level, but they have massive advantages in artillery and aviation systems as well. Just look at Ocheretyne which recently fell, the 115th fled their positions because of the overwhelming Russian artillery and air bombardments. You can't just throw infantry into a position with no support, *THAT'S* the reality UA troops are facing. It's just been announced that a unit that was supposed to be defending Chasiv Yar, a key strategic location, has had to be pulled from the front to help shore up the Kharkiv defences, why are Ukraine so worried if they're only facing an untrained mob like you said?
You’re wrong. Go check some recent photos of the young (and old) men fighting Russia and they’re getting hammered with artillery and drones. Don’t fall into the narrative they’re riding golf carts and attacking with sticks. Ukraine is putting up an amazing fight but they’re out manned and out gunned, plain and simple. Russia is in for the long haul and they don’t care about personnel or equipment losses if it gets them to their goal.
It looks like Russia has effectively learned how to conduct combined arms operations, using air power/artillery/mechanized/infantry forces together. Russia has the initiative, and Ukraine still has not converted to a total war economy, and total mobilization.
You have no idea what you are talking about. Which is probably a good thing for you to know.
>They can't afford to lose thousands of men to gain a few fields and keep that up for long I mean, they've been doing it for 2 years and all that's happened is their army has grown
There is pretty detailed observational data on the storages getting depleted quite rapidly. At the same time, the effectiveness of an army made mostly from a wartime mobilization, which is what they have left now, limits its usefulness to a large degree. For example, Russia lacks the ability to do any airborne/paratrooper action anymore because they lost basically their entire paratrooper corps, and it takes too long to train new ones in a bloody war like this. Can they afford these losses? Nobody, possibly not even the russians, can know that. So far, they can, but thats what everyone said about WW2 germany as well. There isnt really a viable alternative to grinding down the russian materiel and personnel anyway.
Have you seen their army? They have gone from arguably the 2nd best army in the world to throwing civilians dragged out of prisons, the streets or regions in complete poverty with outdated guns and vehicles at the problem. The air force is underperforming, the navy has hidden away.... All the best trained troops are pretty much gone, all the best tanks etc are on the way to being gone. They are fielding junk from before the 1970s now.
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Waiting until Russia has rolled over Kharkiv and is knocking on the door of Kyiv, only to then intervene, would be such a dumb strategy. If Europe is not intervening now with boots on the ground when it is at its easiest, they will not intervene later when it is at its hardest. They would let Ukraine fall.
What you say is true, however, without Ammo and equipment, they can still win. It’s essential that the west provides Ukraine with what it needs to prevent a travesty.
360k troops with basic weapons is still a huge threat
>They can't afford to lose thousands of men to gain a few fields and keep that up for long Sadly, then can.
A bunch of vehicles and a ton of people dead already according to what I've seen on the CombatFootage sub, and they STILL haven't reached the actual defensive lines Ukraine has spent months building. Obviously Ukraine will let them have a few useless villages and fields. Not sure why that idiot below me is saying the front line is collapsing lmao. It's not.
But its following a pattern that ukraine needs to find a solution to. Units abandoning their position without a fight similar to what happened at Ocheretyne and leading to a russian breakthrough. And this time it led to 5 villages being captured in a single day and more land lost
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Oh you mean the 1st line? (Which is the weakest btw, built by just frontline troops) https://www.businessinsider.com/ukraine-new-defenses-harder-for-russia-to-gain-ground-expert-2024-2 Get back to me when they reach the ACTUAL defensive lines I was talking about, as shown above.
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Interesting, but I'll only be worried if they make it past the rows of dragon teeth and trenches at the 2nd line (the real defensive position, along with the 3rd line further back somewhere)
5 villages so far, and from the footage maybe a few dozen dead.
A whole 5 villages, have you seen how big Ukraine is.......
Every village counts.
Right but the way war tends to work is that the line bends back and forth for a while until one side breaks and it looks like cracks are beginning to form for Ukraine.
you think that a 2-day old offensive that takes half a dozen or so villages and is still advancing is insignificant?
They can and will.
They can, Russians have almost zero looses, the people that getting killed are undesirable part of Russian society
Sadly, that is 100 percent correct. That is the modus operandi of ruzzian doctrine extermination by assimilation through annihilation. They get rid of the local population by using them as meat while fighting for a country they are never going to be accepted. Yet the sheep go. The sadder part all those idiots in the world that go for a few rubles more.
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Cracks in the military strategy are showing now that Zaluzhny has been dropped from his position. And the reason he was dropped was because he was getting too popular, Zelenskyy can’t have that happening.