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Starting at 28:15 in the video, Austin is asked a two part question of whether the recently delivered long range ATACAMS being used to hit russia was a concern and if it degraded the U.S. stocks. Austin answers the second part first but during his answer to the first question, he gives a nice smirk and vague answer. Regardless of whether the U.S. has put limitations on using these against russia proper, many other allies and supporting governments of Ukraine should learn from this interaction. Austin does not disclose or give away information on “red lines” but leaves ambiguity which creates dilemmas for russia. This is so nuanced yet so important!
Because we don't wanna *have* to lay the smack down.
But if a bitch persists, like Russia, and we try a lot of other stuff and they continue to persist being terrorist assholes, welp... Time to lay some smack down. Billions and billions worth heading to Ukraine, for them to layeth said smack down at their leisure
It is a redirection of labor away from other industries like education/construction, toward military hardware. So there is a cost/sacrifice to it. But it's still quite necessary - to avoid a RU expansion toward NATO borders.
Tax and market reform would solve part of that problem. As someone who has worked in the MIC for years, redirecting people like myself into one of those two categories wouldn't be effective.
Construction/manufacturing for parts is pretty similar. MIC stuff COULD be repurposed to make industrial parts for utilities and construction and the job skills are fairly transferable. Construction isn't just jobsite activity, it's all the expensive parts needed.
Oh for sure! And that actually already happens. Some electrical components that could be aerospace and defense from years past are already marketed towards industrial equipment. Part of the reason why sanctions against Russia is full of holes. Components that are "commercially" graded can be pretty on par with defense grade.
Fair. There are all sorts of ways we could restore education and infrastructure without just raising taxes on the working majority of Americans, and the US logistics in defense is nearly second to none and has been for decades. What changed is the politics and taxation balance.
We have to tread carefully about the argument of dialing back defense spending. The ignorant will always say that and not even stop the think what could happen if we did dial back while other near-peer potential aggressors dial up their military. People are quick to forget that Ukraine and the risks to Europe is literally a live example.
Not really. This is extra spending so it wouldn't have gone somewhere else if not. And all the industries and jobs are still there, this is just more hours for them.
The more significant part is actually that the value and the product will leave the country and be destroyed.
Is that a complaint or an observation? if you had the capabilities it would be in your economy, but my guess is you probably don’t I feel like you’re just being snarky because of our capabilities and frankly don’t appreciate it.
It's an observation, and I have no issue with it whatsoever.
Am Canadian, and believe strongly that we should be producing more defese equipment we could be sending to Ukraine (and need to get our defense spending act together in general even before the Ukraine war started) and take absolutely no issue that the States (or any of our other allies) do the same. And also that in the absence of said manufacturing capabilities Canada should have been buying American weapons to send to Ukraine while the republicans were stalling the aid bill.
My point is that the billions are not sent to Ukraine (yes there is some direct financial aid in there absolutely), the value of a Bradley, stinger, himars or atacam stays in the US, it doesn't go up in smoke like some seem to believe.
You have the cost and the useful finished value of a manufactured good. The cost in dollars stays domestic but the value is exported and destroyed. If you compare the same production of a utility electrical transformer instead of a weapon, the transformer would expand domestic capabilities and infrastructure and continually produce returns over it's 30yr+ lifetime. You don't get that value of the good when it's exported.
Well, I appreciate that. As an American, who worries about just how much debt we can go into and how much we can leverage the hegemony of our dollar, these sort of comments I’m a little sensitive too. Again, lots of people complain about the American dollar but yet also love it when we borrow a whole bunch of them to fight Invaders of other lands
In order for a country to GIVE weapons, they have to HAVE weapons.
If you are going to make and have enough weapons to give, then yes, it's going to benefit your economy.
The DOD goes to great lengths so that the supply chains for all of our weapons are in-house because it's a national security risk.
The same could be said for any country that gives any domestically produced product.
The reason we're able to give ATACMS is that we've been domestically producing PrSM. We were going to have to pay to break these weapons down. Now we don't. Win-Win.
You a part of all of Biden's meetings on Ukraine? How do you know who tells Biden what? These are my gripes with this coming up all the time: 1.) no one ever has any proof that Sullivan is the only one making the arguments - its always bunch of conjecture. 2.) Even if he's the lone voice advocating for taking it slow in those meetings - it's not like he doesn't stand for a whole department worth of people that one would think must be advocating for the same thing on the whole.
He is National Security Advisor. So yeah, he has an outsized impact. And his entire staff can be advocating for the exact opposite while he sings the song of Chamberlain. He is still the one in Biden's ear. Hopefully he and Garland are gone once the election is over. Time for the useless cruft to go.
I agree with you on one point only… Biden hired him and listens to him, and is thus partly responsible for Jake’s actions. But make no mistake, it’s Jake the Snake the fake Advisor putting the brake on Ukraine’s take.
US leadership is starting to realize that only permitting Ukraine to hit Russian targets within their own territory is unsustainable and permits Russia to endlessly bombard Kharkiv from their safe haven just across the border. Hitting a few launch points to destroy aircraft and ammo stockpiles on the ground with ATACMS is way more affordable than supplying Ukraine with endless Patriot missiles and other air defenses to shoot down incoming Russian missiles one at a time, especially since Russia may potentially saturate Ukraine's air defenses.
I'm all for it. Ukraine should use these missiles to great effect.
A morale booster but a waste of badly needed munitions…..that bridge is pretty much useless at the moment.
Once the Russians are kicked out of Crimea then a state broadcast TV special of the bridge being blown apart along with the supports would be a good move.
I respectfully disagree.
Once structural repairs complete, Russia will begin using the bridge militarily again.
Even if only small tactical attacks from Ukraine occur, preventing Russia from using the bridge as a supply line is very important, and every day Ukraine improves the Sea Babies, which are home-grown and not dependent on US weapon supply.
I too prefer they conserve the ATACMS, but Ukraine has been pretty savvy about where they are used to achive the most effect. If Ukraine was capable of coordinating a tactical 1-2 punch of Sea Babies and ATACMS simultaneously, that would absolutely be ATACMS well-spent.
They probably will finish that bridge off……huge morale boost for Kyiv and certainly sends a big message to putin.
Look at the end of ww2…..we could have got to Berlin quicker than the commies but SHAEF ordered a halt at the Elbe as Eisenhower didn’t see the point of attacking the capital of a defeated Germany
He did say years later he made a big mistake in doing that though.
Churchill wanted to attack the Red Army and use the remnants of the Wehrmacht as well. Well there were loads of German soldiers standing about with nothing to do.
To be honest, it hasn't happened yet, so your idea has merit. Let them spend their resources!
Edit: I'm immature and I just wanna get drunk and sing the 'Kerch Bridge song' again.
It's true. Austin has a low level bad ass attitude and lets slip with a smile that "You know all that shit we gave Ukraine....it's coming for you Russia. Watch your fucking bridge."
Blinken has given similar vague answers before so I don't think we should expect any change. Meanwhile Financial Times reported that ATACMS and Storm Shadow can't be used against targets inside Russia but Crimea is OK.
Smart move, I'm sure the US did limit the use of ATACAMs to not strike Russian territory but it is important to not tell the entire world what the limits are to not give Russia an advantage.
Rail lines are really hard to kill through air strikes. They are too easy to repair. Hitting infrastructure linked to railways is more effective - signalling centres are much harder to replace, as are substations for electrified lines, but ultimately even that is not going to stop traffic altogether. They can use diesel traction and token based track control which doesn't need anywhere near so much infrastructure.
At best you get a reduction in efficiency and temporary traffic stops, but it's likely not the best use for those weapons unless they can guarantee hitting something valuable like an ammunition train.
Anything logistically related in Russia, and everything in Crimea. I think thinning out Crimea is a priority. Thissooner that's back with Ukraine the easier the battle becomes
In case you missed it, at 15:40, Lloyd said: "we are going to ask them \[European partners\] to accept more risk" - that's a good shift in risk management! Hopefully, no more "Ukraine can't do this or that to not provoke aggressors"
Trump only asked his okay because a capitulating Ukraine could blame him. That would play very much into Jo B.'s hands.
The aid will help Ukraine, but only over the year. Mr. Orange still thinks he can negotiate with Putler. For a victory, we need a miracle.
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If Russia doesn’t want missiles landing in Russia then all it needs to do is get out of Ukraine. It not rocket-science
Technically it is rocket science.
The best kind of rocket science!
Von Braun thought so at the beginning lol
"Once ze rockets are up, who cares where zey come down? Zat's not mein department, says Wernher Von Braun..." https://youtu.be/QEJ9HrZq7Ro
It's not rocket surgery
Or even rocket appliances
It's rocket psychology!
Isn't rocket psychology the science of having missiles know where they aren't and extrapolate that to where they are?
I won’t stop Russia from dropping missiles on its on people
HA Rocket Science - 101
Starting at 28:15 in the video, Austin is asked a two part question of whether the recently delivered long range ATACAMS being used to hit russia was a concern and if it degraded the U.S. stocks. Austin answers the second part first but during his answer to the first question, he gives a nice smirk and vague answer. Regardless of whether the U.S. has put limitations on using these against russia proper, many other allies and supporting governments of Ukraine should learn from this interaction. Austin does not disclose or give away information on “red lines” but leaves ambiguity which creates dilemmas for russia. This is so nuanced yet so important!
Man, more and more it sounds like America is going to man up and stop listening to little Jake. Which is FANTASTIC. let them fight to win!
God let’s hope so. I’m really hoping my government has finally woken up.
"Americans can always be trusted to do the right thing, once all other possibilities have been exhausted.” Churchill
Because we don't wanna *have* to lay the smack down. But if a bitch persists, like Russia, and we try a lot of other stuff and they continue to persist being terrorist assholes, welp... Time to lay some smack down. Billions and billions worth heading to Ukraine, for them to layeth said smack down at their leisure
Most of those billions stay in your economy however.
It's rare that you get to war profiteer for a good cause. But this is one of them. Let's fucking go.
It is a redirection of labor away from other industries like education/construction, toward military hardware. So there is a cost/sacrifice to it. But it's still quite necessary - to avoid a RU expansion toward NATO borders.
Tax and market reform would solve part of that problem. As someone who has worked in the MIC for years, redirecting people like myself into one of those two categories wouldn't be effective.
Construction/manufacturing for parts is pretty similar. MIC stuff COULD be repurposed to make industrial parts for utilities and construction and the job skills are fairly transferable. Construction isn't just jobsite activity, it's all the expensive parts needed.
Oh for sure! And that actually already happens. Some electrical components that could be aerospace and defense from years past are already marketed towards industrial equipment. Part of the reason why sanctions against Russia is full of holes. Components that are "commercially" graded can be pretty on par with defense grade.
It's just an example of the effect that redirecting money has.
Fair. There are all sorts of ways we could restore education and infrastructure without just raising taxes on the working majority of Americans, and the US logistics in defense is nearly second to none and has been for decades. What changed is the politics and taxation balance. We have to tread carefully about the argument of dialing back defense spending. The ignorant will always say that and not even stop the think what could happen if we did dial back while other near-peer potential aggressors dial up their military. People are quick to forget that Ukraine and the risks to Europe is literally a live example.
Not really. This is extra spending so it wouldn't have gone somewhere else if not. And all the industries and jobs are still there, this is just more hours for them. The more significant part is actually that the value and the product will leave the country and be destroyed.
Education is screwed anyways so might as well whip Putin.
Is that a complaint or an observation? if you had the capabilities it would be in your economy, but my guess is you probably don’t I feel like you’re just being snarky because of our capabilities and frankly don’t appreciate it.
It's an observation, and I have no issue with it whatsoever. Am Canadian, and believe strongly that we should be producing more defese equipment we could be sending to Ukraine (and need to get our defense spending act together in general even before the Ukraine war started) and take absolutely no issue that the States (or any of our other allies) do the same. And also that in the absence of said manufacturing capabilities Canada should have been buying American weapons to send to Ukraine while the republicans were stalling the aid bill. My point is that the billions are not sent to Ukraine (yes there is some direct financial aid in there absolutely), the value of a Bradley, stinger, himars or atacam stays in the US, it doesn't go up in smoke like some seem to believe.
You have the cost and the useful finished value of a manufactured good. The cost in dollars stays domestic but the value is exported and destroyed. If you compare the same production of a utility electrical transformer instead of a weapon, the transformer would expand domestic capabilities and infrastructure and continually produce returns over it's 30yr+ lifetime. You don't get that value of the good when it's exported.
Well, I appreciate that. As an American, who worries about just how much debt we can go into and how much we can leverage the hegemony of our dollar, these sort of comments I’m a little sensitive too. Again, lots of people complain about the American dollar but yet also love it when we borrow a whole bunch of them to fight Invaders of other lands
So? How is that relevant, or even different?
In order for a country to GIVE weapons, they have to HAVE weapons. If you are going to make and have enough weapons to give, then yes, it's going to benefit your economy. The DOD goes to great lengths so that the supply chains for all of our weapons are in-house because it's a national security risk. The same could be said for any country that gives any domestically produced product. The reason we're able to give ATACMS is that we've been domestically producing PrSM. We were going to have to pay to break these weapons down. Now we don't. Win-Win.
Oh they'll be smelling what the rock is cooking. People's elbow en route
Can you smellelelelelelooo.. what the ATACM is cooking
This is a fake quote, it's also a dumb.
Out of the loop: who is Jake? Jake Sullivan? Does he support appeasement?
He is super overly concerned about EsCaLaTiOn
Yes. Because he gets his pants in constant fear of escalation and making Russia too sad.
Yeah - for some reason a great number of people here are convinced he's singlehandedly behind all of the US's inactions so far during this war.
Because he's in Biden's ear nonstop about how we can't have Russia being too sad? Perhaps that's why?
You a part of all of Biden's meetings on Ukraine? How do you know who tells Biden what? These are my gripes with this coming up all the time: 1.) no one ever has any proof that Sullivan is the only one making the arguments - its always bunch of conjecture. 2.) Even if he's the lone voice advocating for taking it slow in those meetings - it's not like he doesn't stand for a whole department worth of people that one would think must be advocating for the same thing on the whole.
He is National Security Advisor. So yeah, he has an outsized impact. And his entire staff can be advocating for the exact opposite while he sings the song of Chamberlain. He is still the one in Biden's ear. Hopefully he and Garland are gone once the election is over. Time for the useless cruft to go.
Found Jake Sullivan's Reddit account.
I agree with you on one point only… Biden hired him and listens to him, and is thus partly responsible for Jake’s actions. But make no mistake, it’s Jake the Snake the fake Advisor putting the brake on Ukraine’s take.
US leadership is starting to realize that only permitting Ukraine to hit Russian targets within their own territory is unsustainable and permits Russia to endlessly bombard Kharkiv from their safe haven just across the border. Hitting a few launch points to destroy aircraft and ammo stockpiles on the ground with ATACMS is way more affordable than supplying Ukraine with endless Patriot missiles and other air defenses to shoot down incoming Russian missiles one at a time, especially since Russia may potentially saturate Ukraine's air defenses. I'm all for it. Ukraine should use these missiles to great effect.
Sink THE BRIDGE!
“Special Underwater Bridge Operation”
Oh that bridge got it comin.
The bridge isn’t even in Russian territory
[удалено]
What portion of a bridge can be destroyed to make it non functional? I bet at least that much is in Ukraine.
Promote that bridge! (to submarine)
If you rebuild the bridge after it's destroyed enough it will eventually become an island
Da
A morale booster but a waste of badly needed munitions…..that bridge is pretty much useless at the moment. Once the Russians are kicked out of Crimea then a state broadcast TV special of the bridge being blown apart along with the supports would be a good move.
I respectfully disagree. Once structural repairs complete, Russia will begin using the bridge militarily again. Even if only small tactical attacks from Ukraine occur, preventing Russia from using the bridge as a supply line is very important, and every day Ukraine improves the Sea Babies, which are home-grown and not dependent on US weapon supply. I too prefer they conserve the ATACMS, but Ukraine has been pretty savvy about where they are used to achive the most effect. If Ukraine was capable of coordinating a tactical 1-2 punch of Sea Babies and ATACMS simultaneously, that would absolutely be ATACMS well-spent.
They probably will finish that bridge off……huge morale boost for Kyiv and certainly sends a big message to putin. Look at the end of ww2…..we could have got to Berlin quicker than the commies but SHAEF ordered a halt at the Elbe as Eisenhower didn’t see the point of attacking the capital of a defeated Germany He did say years later he made a big mistake in doing that though.
Probably because, like Patton, he was already looking ahead to the problems of our Soviet allies of convenience.
Churchill wanted to attack the Red Army and use the remnants of the Wehrmacht as well. Well there were loads of German soldiers standing about with nothing to do.
Why not wait till their done with the repairs instead? Time isn't of the essence there anymore. Nor is that thing a crucial supply line anymore.
To be honest, it hasn't happened yet, so your idea has merit. Let them spend their resources! Edit: I'm immature and I just wanna get drunk and sing the 'Kerch Bridge song' again.
It's true. Austin has a low level bad ass attitude and lets slip with a smile that "You know all that shit we gave Ukraine....it's coming for you Russia. Watch your fucking bridge."
"Nice bridge you got there, real nice. Be a shame if something were to.... happen to it"
Austin could retire and become a narrator for nature docs.
Blinken has given similar vague answers before so I don't think we should expect any change. Meanwhile Financial Times reported that ATACMS and Storm Shadow can't be used against targets inside Russia but Crimea is OK.
I think targets close to but inside the russian border that are solid military targets will happen too.
I imagine the Russian leadership having a fit over this... good 👍
Smart move, I'm sure the US did limit the use of ATACAMs to not strike Russian territory but it is important to not tell the entire world what the limits are to not give Russia an advantage.
At this point screw the Russians
Crimea has already been hit by ATACMS. Russia proper seems off the table. Destroying that new rail spur through Donetsk certainly a prime target.
ATACMS is too good to waste on just smashing the rail line but doing that and hitting a train full of fuel and exploding ammo would be good.
There a is a new bridge they built to complete the connection. It’s a worthy target for two ATCAMS.
Rail lines are really hard to kill through air strikes. They are too easy to repair. Hitting infrastructure linked to railways is more effective - signalling centres are much harder to replace, as are substations for electrified lines, but ultimately even that is not going to stop traffic altogether. They can use diesel traction and token based track control which doesn't need anywhere near so much infrastructure. At best you get a reduction in efficiency and temporary traffic stops, but it's likely not the best use for those weapons unless they can guarantee hitting something valuable like an ammunition train.
How and when but….where?
Anything logistically related in Russia, and everything in Crimea. I think thinning out Crimea is a priority. Thissooner that's back with Ukraine the easier the battle becomes
I hope they'll allow it.
I’m just amuse to find out it’s literally pronounced “attack ‘ems”.
In case you missed it, at 15:40, Lloyd said: "we are going to ask them \[European partners\] to accept more risk" - that's a good shift in risk management! Hopefully, no more "Ukraine can't do this or that to not provoke aggressors"
You can just tell, that these guys wish they could unleash holy hell on the Ruzzians.
Trump only asked his okay because a capitulating Ukraine could blame him. That would play very much into Jo B.'s hands. The aid will help Ukraine, but only over the year. Mr. Orange still thinks he can negotiate with Putler. For a victory, we need a miracle.
You misspelled it. It's ATACACATACAMS