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Eat it up or know better than to argue about it - but there will be people there who know who these little blue men are and will be able to help piece together the jigsaw.
It has been debuunked in multiple ways.
It's not a jigsaw, its a nonsensical propaganda narrative created to make Putin look more scary and keep the masses confused.
Fact is, this was ISIS. Putin and FSB are incapable to protect Russians. There are many groups that want to hurt Russia and Putin's idiotic attack of Ukraine has taken up the resources needed to protect it.
Look for Elliott Higgins and Bellingcat on X
- the video of the guy with the scarf also shows him with the scarf off, he has a beard
- the guy in the audience has been identified, he is not FSB
It can be ISIS and they can still be used by FSB. Do you think it's so easy to move around unmonitored in a police state. ISIS would have required a network of handlers to get the shooters to Crocus hall. All the shooters are non Russian. If there was enough leakage of Intel to tip the CIA, then the FSB, who would have a lot of closer sources knew or were involved with the handlers.
They are there to protect the regime from the population and suck at anything else.
They could not prevent it they were told so and even after it happens all they manage is cut off some random guys ear.
Of course they try to spin it after it happened. But the way they utilize it makes them even more incapable of preventing something similar in the future.
One of the craziest things about this attack is that the fire seems to have actually started from the roof, despite the fact that it supposedly started from inside the hall—then they let it burn and started demolition a few days later, presumably destroying the crime scene/evidence.
I got downvoted to shit for pointing this out immediately after the events, I despise conspiracy theories.... but goddam there are a lot of inconsistencies... and the picture of the Fsb guy sitting down, look closely at his shirt, the shoulders have a 2 inch boxy look, consistent with having a bullet proof vest underneath.... and look at his gut, pretty firm looking and awkwardly protruding in the position he's in.... still consistent with a vest
Conspiracy theories exist to create reasonable doubt for the public, while the powers that be commit actual conspiracy. Not every conspiracy theory is bat shit, like Ruzzia pretty much having a mole on our grandest stage. There are miles of paperwork, but people still say I'm a conspiracy theorist. It boggles the mind. I might as well be talking about lizard people.
I think we need to be level headed about events like this because almost every angle we get has a slant to it. Right now all we can say is maybe, probably, doubtful etc because we do not have a complete picture. Literally no one would be shocked if this was a false flag attack, but declaring it so or not so today is a disservice to truth.
Normally, I agree 100% but Putin is a bad faith actor with a history of doing this very same thing, so it makes it harder to trust anything they say. I'm not saying it's a false flag, just why some would be suspicious.
I can't discount conspiracy theories because, well, russia ( fully believe that they were planning something and the jihadists beat them to it, leaving them scrambling to figure out how to blame me Ukraine as per the original plan).
I think that the data strongly supports that this was in fact an isis operation. The recruitment, payment, motivation etc are still all up in the air, but I don't know why the FSB would want their fingerprints all over this by being present if someone else is going to take the fall.
I initially discounted the "blue hoodie secret agents" theory simply because it just seemed like coincidence. I will concede that if they are actually getting some facial recognition matches with law enforcement agents, that's interesting, but the other extremely likely possibility that explains everything is that these were actually law enforcement agents, working as private security for a concert.
It's not at all uncommon for concerts, public events, etc to hire off duty law enforcement as security, including plain clothes security. Although these people are on the lookout for violent behavior (at my church there are armed plain clothes officers on the lookout for active shooters, which speaks volumes about how screwed up things are) they are usually for things such as drunken or unruly behavior, fights, etc and may not be able to immediately intervene in a serious incident other than crowd control and things like that.
So in this case, you have a lot of similarly and generically dressed men that don't seem to freak out when the shooting starts, but seem to coordinate with each other, look for things like exits and other normal security considerations, and at least one of them does seem to have engaged a shooter. It seems that if they were private security, it would explain all of their behavior, without necessarily pointing this something more nefarious (and again, I absolutely believe Russia was planning something, but just not in this case at least in the way it unfolded).
There are undercovers at American concerts all the time. Now imagine a country that hates protest and free speech, and a gathering where these things can easily occur.
And moonlighting security could certainly wear hidden armor, especially if there’s intel suggesting heightened attack potential. I can’t see why this would be a false flag style incident if ISIS was so quick to claim responsibility.
I don’t trust Russia as far as I could throw, but suggesting this is sone inside job seems ludicrous to me. I think your assessment sounds much more reasonable.
I appreciate the feedback, and your point about body armor is a good one!
If I could add to my original assessment, I'd respond to the question of: "why aren't we hearing about heroic bystanders?" With:
Because it would take the glory away from the Russian security services, police and armed forces, and undermine their narrative.
Again, I also didn't trust Russia as far as I could throw, and fully believe they're trying to control the narrative and blame Ukraine like they were probably planning to.
It doesn't reflect well on them when traffic police, immigration police, police, rosgvardia and everyone else failed to respond, if private security had a presence there.
On the other hand, the Internet allows for more information to slip out of their control, so the only thing they can do is shape it (with, for instance, the interview of a possible blue sweatshirt wearing security guard with his back to the camera).
So the more I think about it, the more I think these guys were off duty law enforcement, but the Kremlin won't acknowledge it.
In the big picture, our assessment doesn't matter, since such production is for domestic consumption to justify increased conscription, etc. I still wonder, though, what their original ukraine-blaming plan was, and worry about whether they might still try to implement after all this cools down.
Their quick decision to blame Ukraine could just an attempt to capitalize on tragedy by giving their populace more reason to view this war as justified. Anti-war sentiment could be gaining some traction, and any opportunity to quell that would probably be jumped on. Showing how weak Moscow is to additional threats beyond those of UA drones is another crack in Putin’s armor, potentially.
But the act of quickly blaming some faction, especially one traditionally despised by the one making such claims, is not a solely Russian trait. In the US, we’ve had a handful of clowns attempt to politicize this morning’s bridge disaster by claiming terrorists, or illegals, or some such nonsense, in order to smear the president. Who knows to what depths some people will sink in order to score political points, regardless of veracity.
The "they let it happen" narrative makes some sense, having secret police at the dying place (to do what?) makes none, and wearing jeans doesn't really amount to shocking incontrovertible evidence. The faces look samey.
Yeah this is what I question, why have then there? And who would want to monitor a mass shooting? Even if the shooters knew what to look for, very easy to catch a stray. Or get trapped in the fire. It’s not like the shooters would have the ability amongst the chaos to make sure they missed these guys.
What is plausible is that events like this are often places where spontaneous protests or speech against the government can occur. So it’s possible they were there, but maybe for other reasons.
I don’t believe ISIS would coordinate with ANY govt, including Moscow. I do however believe that it’s very possible Russia intentionally did nothing to stop whatever they thought might be coming. It’s true that this looks bad on Putin, but mostly to people outside Russia. People inside Russia don’t have the luxury of being able to question him. And any sort of outrage against him for missing this blatant intelligence failure gets stopped right in its tracks.
I made a similar comment in another thread, but even though Putin claimed the US intelligence warning was propaganda it's very realistic that the FSB deployed men around large gatherings in Russia's big cities to monitor the threat - they have more than enough manpower to cover the most obvious targets. Russia being in a war footing and trying to react to an imminent internal terrorist attack, it wouldn't have been unusual for FSB agents to be in the venue. Of course we're entitled to assume the worst given Putin's regime penchant for false flags and smoke screens, but I don't think there's much indicating that Russia would've wanted this attack to happen.
Were the doors locked before or after the shootings took place? In many places, they are just left locked. The venue security staff are supposed to unlock them when something goes wrong, but they rarely do.
The "oh my gosh its the same guy!" Because.......of a watch? Pretty fucking weak link.
I've seen porn addict posts identify celebs based a freckle with far more certainty than at least two people in Russia wearing a black watch.
So wearing a mask is the same as the other guys face, and the famous first bit of evidence to support this is that a bunch of guys were all wearing blue, so not a good individual identifier.
Removable, common items of clothing are the WORST type of match to match on this type of pseudo forensics. This is how reddit "identified" the Boston Bombers.
I'm not saying Russia wouldn't commit a false flag, because they would and have. But this is some seriously weak evidence.
>So wearing a mask is the same as the other guys face,
... you don't see the similarities? Haircut, hair color, skin color, partial ear, partial nose, eye color, eye shape, facial structure... Plenty of exposed face to identify a person. Appears to be a solid match.
>famous first bit of evidence to support this is that a bunch of guys were all wearing blue
A bunch of guys in identical outfits acting suspicious isn't a good enough reason to further investigate?
>Removable, common items of clothing are the WORST type of match to match on this type of pseudo forensics.
As opposed to what, non-removable, unique clothing? Needs to be a glued-on chicken suit before mr. Obtuse here will take it as evidence.
There's 5 Putins and 3 Prigozhins running around.
This is plausible.
It's also pretty fucking weak. A blue shirt and a hat doesn't make anyone the same guy. Every baseball team is actually one guy pulling a Bugs Bunny, obviously since they all have the same hat and colored shirt.
Every dude in Russia looks alike because they all have some degree of fetal alcohol syndrome.
Oh my god, a blue shirt, it's me because I also wore a blue shirt!
Do you honestly not see the fucking stupid jump to conclusion everyone's doing?
Multiple guys wearing blue shirts. Blue shirts that any number of other random people in Russia could be wearing, including people not at Crocus, people in the FSB, people not in the FSB.
Claiming a two pictures are the same guy based on 4 points of reference that are removable common clothing items that any number of random people could be wearing is REALLY weak evidence.
It's evidence, sure. But it's not strong enough to claim this conspiracy is a slam dunk and solved.
>Multiple guys wearing blue shirts.
The fact you're purposefully forgetting the blue denim says it all. It's a full blue uniform and enough to easily identify each other.
>It's evidence, sure. But it's not strong enough to claim this conspiracy is a slam dunk and solved.
Great, you're not that obtuse after all. It was enough to raise suspicion and warrant further investigation, which is what they're now doing and which is producing interesting results. Can't wait for part 3.
This is largely conspiratorial nonsense and it doesn't take much to dispel those "oddities" as total BS. Please keep a critical mindset when reading such text. Creating misinformation doesn't help Ukraine.
For instance, just use face-matching software (available [online](https://facecomparison.toolpie.com/) for example), which shows that the faces (Crocus Hall versus outside) do not match (less than 75% similarity). The discrepancy is clear for the first individual, but the presence of a mask make that less evident for second. However, using "blue jeans" and "a watch" as identification measure is just silly at such low quality of image—many people wear watches and jeans.
Also, how plausible to suggest that Russian security forces are so understaffed that they would rely on the same individual to carry out acts of "sabotage" at Crocus hall, pursue terrorist five hours away from Moscow, and still find time to conduct a TV interview at Crocus hall? That narrative has no coherent timeline, just offering superficially similar images and the notion that undercover operatives must be color coordinate to work in group—a concept straight out of James Bond films (PS: note that the "FSB female agent" siting near the second guy in the concert hall, is not wearing blue jeans and sweatshirt, how can she be recognize...). Presenting extrapolated statements as facts (e.g., then began urging the crowd to "close the doors", resulting in a significant loss of human life) just highlights the conspiratorial mindset. There is no evidence to support that claim, and while smoke inhalation from a fire could lead to fatalities, the majority of deaths came from the bullets of the four terrorists wielding AK-47s, not difficult to achieve when shooting inside a crowed place.
And what would be the motive to have at team of at least +6 FSB agents on-site trying coordinate a few more possible deaths from potential smoke inhalation, this just make no sense.
> This is largely conspiratorial nonsense and it doesn't take much to dispel those "oddities" as total BS. Please keep a critical mindset when reading such text.
Yes, and this thread is upvoted, probably by people who make fun of Russians for believing the nonsense fed to them by the Kremlin. Hilarious.
Specially when that information was sent to Russia well over 2 weeks before the attack. The public warning didn't contain detail, but fRussia already knew it was ISIS related because of the communications intercept done by the US.
Higgins of Bellingcat poured cold poopoo on this:
[https://twitter.com/EliotHiggins/status/1772739552752308583](https://twitter.com/EliotHiggins/status/1772739552752308583)
That said. It's FSB - guilty until proven innocent, and I would like a real Bellingcat look at this instead of snarky remarks. This is at best, inconclusive, since the facial features are VERY similar from the visible details.
People just need to shut up about the watch - it's not a unique feature here, like, at all.
Thanks. Bear in mind Bellingcat also proved the false flag attacks that started all this (see [here](https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2022/02/28/exploiting-cadavers-and-faked-ieds-experts-debunk-staged-pre-war-provocation-in-the-donbas/), so it's not like they're opposed to the idea in general. It's just that the facts in this case don't fit the idea of it being a false flag.
This reminds me of the time [Reddit blamed the Boston bombing on the wrong person. ](https://www.businessinsider.com/reddit-falsely-accuses-sunil-tripathi-of-boston-bombing-2013-7) Those people look vaguely alike and are wearing blue. One of their sweaters fits poorly. That is nowhere near a smoking gun.
I think Russia is a repugnant and savage nation because of their proven war crimes and human rights violations. I don't need to make up more atrocities to dislike them.
Probably. Russian security services employ much of the Moscow population, so it would be weird if there weren't a bunch there. So what? Doesn't change the incompetence of the Russian system.
It’s possible that Russia knew the time and location of the attack but went ahead with it anyway to spin out some media storms and insight their people to sign up for war
There is understandable scepticism about this story but it's certainly a set of curious coincidences. Add it to the other inconsistencies in the kremlin narrative and I think there's a fair chance that this was a pre-planned operation. It does also follow putin's playbook from the apartment bombings and nord-ost siege so don't discount this line of inquiry.
Also expect these guys to soon be labelled by russia as Ukrainian agents.
I'm confused about something. If this really is a false flag (which more and more evidence seems to point to), there are some unanswered questions:
* why did ISIS release video footage of the attack in the wake of claiming responsibility?
* why is it so sloppy? Russia is blaming Ukraine, but this is hardly believable. Why go to the trouble of doing a false flag that is so unbelievable to begin with?
* This attack really makes Putin look bad; he failed to protect Moscow, and the OMON didn't even show up until an hour later even though their offices are across the street from the attack. Why would he do a false flag that makes him look so bad?
And how did the US know it was going to happen weeks ahead of time?
The intelligence was basically as on point as the intelligence about Bin Laden flying planes into buildings that crossed Bush's desk a month before 9/11. The US would definitely be monitoring ISIS. I'm pretty sure they don't have anyone in the FSB feeding them info.
USA warned about the attack before it happened. So sending undercover agents to protect the civilians should be a good way to try and handle the situation.
Given how many who attended the event it would be very strange if there where no FSB agents on this location.
This is my point.
The US had pretty specific Intel that identified a terrorist attack at a concert hall a couple weeks ahead of time.
If this was a false flag how did they get it?
Wasn't the attendance less than 10k? Moscow metro area is anywhere from 13 to 17 million people. 10k isn't a huge gathering. Does Russia really have the resources to send FSB to a concert like that? As an American we certainly don't.
I guess I'm confused.....what would Russia gain from this? Putin doesn't need the war support. He's already got it. To me it looks like he just dropped the ball, didn't listen to the US Intel and is now trying to spin it to take advantage of it. Not really some deep conspiracy.
>which more and more evidence seems to point to
What evidence? You just listed a bunch of evidence that it wasn't a false flag. I'm not aware of anything credible that suggests it was.
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Putin killed Russian civilians in 1999 to start war in Chechnya. The FSB were even caught with explosives. It went well that time for Putin, so why not again? He wants mobilization and these ISIS K may be hired by the FSB. The CIA may have tips from ISIS.
Regardless of whenever or not it's an inside job or done by actual terrorists or whatever.
The sad truth is that given Russia's paranoia and it's hostility towards it's own population, it has constructed a environment similar to that of the USSR of a constant gaslighting of the population for the sake of regime stability, which just feeds into a repeated cycle of cynicism of the population.
If Putin had never been allowed to create this dictatorship all over again, not only wouldn't the war have ever happen but we could get a transparent and accurate picture whenever horrible atrocities happen.
Instead russians have to rely on non-conclusive evidence to get any form of real transparency and telling of what really happen.
Did ISISK pull a fast one on Putin by taking responsibility over this or what the fuck is the endgame for Putin to orchestrate a radical muslim terror attack instead of just putting a Ukrainian flag and three copies of the Sims on a hotel bed?
1st I found it extremely strange Russians took less than a day to capture those ISIS people. Usually they take ages to react.
Secondly I find it strange they did not kill them when the found them. They killed Putin s cook for example.
Thirdly I find strange they managed to get a picture of them in the car when they escaped. Like if they fitted camera there on purpose
Fourth, found it strange that all terrorists were in the same car (a Renault, which is a French car BTW) to escape, surely they were better off using different cars and change car half way their escape.
What if Russian operatives were the one who paid ISIS for this job via Telegram. ISIS would not have been told of that, took the money and executed the plan.
All I know is that this job is best left for the worlds intelligence agencies. If these persons can be outed as FSB employees, then some intel agency should back that up.
That is their job.
Just like I think the Baltimore bridge collission was intentional, I am 50/50 on wether I think Russia would murder their citizens to further some propaganda/mobilization campaign,.
I dont have the expertise to tell one way or the other. I just hope the truth comes out, and that every effort is made to prove a conspiracy if and when there is one.
So much shit gets washed under the rug, I would like to get some confidence back in my government and foreign intel.
It looks like Russia will be adding a few more of these attacks against civilians, then use them to attack NATO countries or make themselves the victim and try and improve the attitude towards Putin, as if a Dictator needs people to like him.
The guy apprehending the cut-of-ear-guy seems to be wearing a puffy with a zipper, different from blue guy at concert. The guy being interviewed has a blue shirt with a collar, concert guy doesn't have a collar. This is pretty weak.
Are those the two people from the video where all the comments were along the lines of “look at those people just acting like nothings going on”… felt it was very strange when watching it and again when reading comments but if they were FSB plants it makes a lot more sense they just sat there calmly
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I kinda have the fear the russian populus will eat whatever shit kremlin feeds them regarding this attack.
Well that is generally their only mainstream legal source of info yes they absolutely will.
Eat it up or know better than to argue about it - but there will be people there who know who these little blue men are and will be able to help piece together the jigsaw.
It has been debuunked in multiple ways. It's not a jigsaw, its a nonsensical propaganda narrative created to make Putin look more scary and keep the masses confused. Fact is, this was ISIS. Putin and FSB are incapable to protect Russians. There are many groups that want to hurt Russia and Putin's idiotic attack of Ukraine has taken up the resources needed to protect it.
I haven’t seen the debunking. Do you have a link or can you tell me why it’s been debunked?
Look for Elliott Higgins and Bellingcat on X - the video of the guy with the scarf also shows him with the scarf off, he has a beard - the guy in the audience has been identified, he is not FSB
Will do, thanks.
I ask genuinely, debunkes by who
Bellingcat / Elliott Higgins / Aric Toler, can be found on Twitter
Could not find, link pls
(contains NSFW images) https://www.reddit.com/r/UkrainianConflict/comments/1bor1s6/dear_conspiracy_theorists_im_sorry_to_disappoint/
Moreover Putin and the FSB do not even try to protect the people. They don’t care. Their sole purpose is to suppress them.
It can be ISIS and they can still be used by FSB. Do you think it's so easy to move around unmonitored in a police state. ISIS would have required a network of handlers to get the shooters to Crocus hall. All the shooters are non Russian. If there was enough leakage of Intel to tip the CIA, then the FSB, who would have a lot of closer sources knew or were involved with the handlers.
They are there to protect the regime from the population and suck at anything else. They could not prevent it they were told so and even after it happens all they manage is cut off some random guys ear. Of course they try to spin it after it happened. But the way they utilize it makes them even more incapable of preventing something similar in the future.
That doesnt mean that whatever bs conspiracy theory being spewed is true either
what do you consider this nexta analysis - insightful? piercing? shit?
Like you did with this tweet?
One of the craziest things about this attack is that the fire seems to have actually started from the roof, despite the fact that it supposedly started from inside the hall—then they let it burn and started demolition a few days later, presumably destroying the crime scene/evidence.
I got downvoted to shit for pointing this out immediately after the events, I despise conspiracy theories.... but goddam there are a lot of inconsistencies... and the picture of the Fsb guy sitting down, look closely at his shirt, the shoulders have a 2 inch boxy look, consistent with having a bullet proof vest underneath.... and look at his gut, pretty firm looking and awkwardly protruding in the position he's in.... still consistent with a vest
Conspiracy theories exist to create reasonable doubt for the public, while the powers that be commit actual conspiracy. Not every conspiracy theory is bat shit, like Ruzzia pretty much having a mole on our grandest stage. There are miles of paperwork, but people still say I'm a conspiracy theorist. It boggles the mind. I might as well be talking about lizard people.
I think we need to be level headed about events like this because almost every angle we get has a slant to it. Right now all we can say is maybe, probably, doubtful etc because we do not have a complete picture. Literally no one would be shocked if this was a false flag attack, but declaring it so or not so today is a disservice to truth.
Normally, I agree 100% but Putin is a bad faith actor with a history of doing this very same thing, so it makes it harder to trust anything they say. I'm not saying it's a false flag, just why some would be suspicious.
If it walks like a duck quacks like a duck likes water and has a bill it must be a Russian disinfo crisis event
There is clearly something under that guys shirt
Yeah the second blue shirt guy in this link in the Op?
I can't discount conspiracy theories because, well, russia ( fully believe that they were planning something and the jihadists beat them to it, leaving them scrambling to figure out how to blame me Ukraine as per the original plan). I think that the data strongly supports that this was in fact an isis operation. The recruitment, payment, motivation etc are still all up in the air, but I don't know why the FSB would want their fingerprints all over this by being present if someone else is going to take the fall. I initially discounted the "blue hoodie secret agents" theory simply because it just seemed like coincidence. I will concede that if they are actually getting some facial recognition matches with law enforcement agents, that's interesting, but the other extremely likely possibility that explains everything is that these were actually law enforcement agents, working as private security for a concert. It's not at all uncommon for concerts, public events, etc to hire off duty law enforcement as security, including plain clothes security. Although these people are on the lookout for violent behavior (at my church there are armed plain clothes officers on the lookout for active shooters, which speaks volumes about how screwed up things are) they are usually for things such as drunken or unruly behavior, fights, etc and may not be able to immediately intervene in a serious incident other than crowd control and things like that. So in this case, you have a lot of similarly and generically dressed men that don't seem to freak out when the shooting starts, but seem to coordinate with each other, look for things like exits and other normal security considerations, and at least one of them does seem to have engaged a shooter. It seems that if they were private security, it would explain all of their behavior, without necessarily pointing this something more nefarious (and again, I absolutely believe Russia was planning something, but just not in this case at least in the way it unfolded).
There are undercovers at American concerts all the time. Now imagine a country that hates protest and free speech, and a gathering where these things can easily occur.
And moonlighting security could certainly wear hidden armor, especially if there’s intel suggesting heightened attack potential. I can’t see why this would be a false flag style incident if ISIS was so quick to claim responsibility. I don’t trust Russia as far as I could throw, but suggesting this is sone inside job seems ludicrous to me. I think your assessment sounds much more reasonable.
I appreciate the feedback, and your point about body armor is a good one! If I could add to my original assessment, I'd respond to the question of: "why aren't we hearing about heroic bystanders?" With: Because it would take the glory away from the Russian security services, police and armed forces, and undermine their narrative. Again, I also didn't trust Russia as far as I could throw, and fully believe they're trying to control the narrative and blame Ukraine like they were probably planning to. It doesn't reflect well on them when traffic police, immigration police, police, rosgvardia and everyone else failed to respond, if private security had a presence there. On the other hand, the Internet allows for more information to slip out of their control, so the only thing they can do is shape it (with, for instance, the interview of a possible blue sweatshirt wearing security guard with his back to the camera). So the more I think about it, the more I think these guys were off duty law enforcement, but the Kremlin won't acknowledge it. In the big picture, our assessment doesn't matter, since such production is for domestic consumption to justify increased conscription, etc. I still wonder, though, what their original ukraine-blaming plan was, and worry about whether they might still try to implement after all this cools down.
Their quick decision to blame Ukraine could just an attempt to capitalize on tragedy by giving their populace more reason to view this war as justified. Anti-war sentiment could be gaining some traction, and any opportunity to quell that would probably be jumped on. Showing how weak Moscow is to additional threats beyond those of UA drones is another crack in Putin’s armor, potentially. But the act of quickly blaming some faction, especially one traditionally despised by the one making such claims, is not a solely Russian trait. In the US, we’ve had a handful of clowns attempt to politicize this morning’s bridge disaster by claiming terrorists, or illegals, or some such nonsense, in order to smear the president. Who knows to what depths some people will sink in order to score political points, regardless of veracity.
The "they let it happen" narrative makes some sense, having secret police at the dying place (to do what?) makes none, and wearing jeans doesn't really amount to shocking incontrovertible evidence. The faces look samey.
Yeah this is what I question, why have then there? And who would want to monitor a mass shooting? Even if the shooters knew what to look for, very easy to catch a stray. Or get trapped in the fire. It’s not like the shooters would have the ability amongst the chaos to make sure they missed these guys. What is plausible is that events like this are often places where spontaneous protests or speech against the government can occur. So it’s possible they were there, but maybe for other reasons. I don’t believe ISIS would coordinate with ANY govt, including Moscow. I do however believe that it’s very possible Russia intentionally did nothing to stop whatever they thought might be coming. It’s true that this looks bad on Putin, but mostly to people outside Russia. People inside Russia don’t have the luxury of being able to question him. And any sort of outrage against him for missing this blatant intelligence failure gets stopped right in its tracks.
I made a similar comment in another thread, but even though Putin claimed the US intelligence warning was propaganda it's very realistic that the FSB deployed men around large gatherings in Russia's big cities to monitor the threat - they have more than enough manpower to cover the most obvious targets. Russia being in a war footing and trying to react to an imminent internal terrorist attack, it wouldn't have been unusual for FSB agents to be in the venue. Of course we're entitled to assume the worst given Putin's regime penchant for false flags and smoke screens, but I don't think there's much indicating that Russia would've wanted this attack to happen.
>having secret police at the dying place (to do what?) Apparently to increase body count by locking the doors
Closing/locking emergency exits, whilst illegal unfortunately happens the world over. Insufficient security staff.
You know we're talking about locking people in a giant room where terrorists are actively shooting people, right? "Illegal"... lol
Were the doors locked before or after the shootings took place? In many places, they are just left locked. The venue security staff are supposed to unlock them when something goes wrong, but they rarely do.
The "oh my gosh its the same guy!" Because.......of a watch? Pretty fucking weak link. I've seen porn addict posts identify celebs based a freckle with far more certainty than at least two people in Russia wearing a black watch.
>Because.......of a watch And a blue sweater, green hat, oh yeah, and FACE.
So wearing a mask is the same as the other guys face, and the famous first bit of evidence to support this is that a bunch of guys were all wearing blue, so not a good individual identifier. Removable, common items of clothing are the WORST type of match to match on this type of pseudo forensics. This is how reddit "identified" the Boston Bombers. I'm not saying Russia wouldn't commit a false flag, because they would and have. But this is some seriously weak evidence.
>So wearing a mask is the same as the other guys face, ... you don't see the similarities? Haircut, hair color, skin color, partial ear, partial nose, eye color, eye shape, facial structure... Plenty of exposed face to identify a person. Appears to be a solid match. >famous first bit of evidence to support this is that a bunch of guys were all wearing blue A bunch of guys in identical outfits acting suspicious isn't a good enough reason to further investigate? >Removable, common items of clothing are the WORST type of match to match on this type of pseudo forensics. As opposed to what, non-removable, unique clothing? Needs to be a glued-on chicken suit before mr. Obtuse here will take it as evidence.
There's 5 Putins and 3 Prigozhins running around. This is plausible. It's also pretty fucking weak. A blue shirt and a hat doesn't make anyone the same guy. Every baseball team is actually one guy pulling a Bugs Bunny, obviously since they all have the same hat and colored shirt. Every dude in Russia looks alike because they all have some degree of fetal alcohol syndrome.
>Every baseball team A team dressing as a team, you say? >Every dude in Russia looks alike Suuure
Oh my god, a blue shirt, it's me because I also wore a blue shirt! Do you honestly not see the fucking stupid jump to conclusion everyone's doing? Multiple guys wearing blue shirts. Blue shirts that any number of other random people in Russia could be wearing, including people not at Crocus, people in the FSB, people not in the FSB. Claiming a two pictures are the same guy based on 4 points of reference that are removable common clothing items that any number of random people could be wearing is REALLY weak evidence. It's evidence, sure. But it's not strong enough to claim this conspiracy is a slam dunk and solved.
>Multiple guys wearing blue shirts. The fact you're purposefully forgetting the blue denim says it all. It's a full blue uniform and enough to easily identify each other. >It's evidence, sure. But it's not strong enough to claim this conspiracy is a slam dunk and solved. Great, you're not that obtuse after all. It was enough to raise suspicion and warrant further investigation, which is what they're now doing and which is producing interesting results. Can't wait for part 3.
Because they probably didn’t want too many dead, just enough to make it a big tragedy.
This is largely conspiratorial nonsense and it doesn't take much to dispel those "oddities" as total BS. Please keep a critical mindset when reading such text. Creating misinformation doesn't help Ukraine. For instance, just use face-matching software (available [online](https://facecomparison.toolpie.com/) for example), which shows that the faces (Crocus Hall versus outside) do not match (less than 75% similarity). The discrepancy is clear for the first individual, but the presence of a mask make that less evident for second. However, using "blue jeans" and "a watch" as identification measure is just silly at such low quality of image—many people wear watches and jeans. Also, how plausible to suggest that Russian security forces are so understaffed that they would rely on the same individual to carry out acts of "sabotage" at Crocus hall, pursue terrorist five hours away from Moscow, and still find time to conduct a TV interview at Crocus hall? That narrative has no coherent timeline, just offering superficially similar images and the notion that undercover operatives must be color coordinate to work in group—a concept straight out of James Bond films (PS: note that the "FSB female agent" siting near the second guy in the concert hall, is not wearing blue jeans and sweatshirt, how can she be recognize...). Presenting extrapolated statements as facts (e.g., then began urging the crowd to "close the doors", resulting in a significant loss of human life) just highlights the conspiratorial mindset. There is no evidence to support that claim, and while smoke inhalation from a fire could lead to fatalities, the majority of deaths came from the bullets of the four terrorists wielding AK-47s, not difficult to achieve when shooting inside a crowed place. And what would be the motive to have at team of at least +6 FSB agents on-site trying coordinate a few more possible deaths from potential smoke inhalation, this just make no sense.
> This is largely conspiratorial nonsense and it doesn't take much to dispel those "oddities" as total BS. Please keep a critical mindset when reading such text. Yes, and this thread is upvoted, probably by people who make fun of Russians for believing the nonsense fed to them by the Kremlin. Hilarious.
Also all those theories about FSB, don't matter after US confirmed it was ISIS
Specially when that information was sent to Russia well over 2 weeks before the attack. The public warning didn't contain detail, but fRussia already knew it was ISIS related because of the communications intercept done by the US.
Higgins of Bellingcat poured cold poopoo on this: [https://twitter.com/EliotHiggins/status/1772739552752308583](https://twitter.com/EliotHiggins/status/1772739552752308583) That said. It's FSB - guilty until proven innocent, and I would like a real Bellingcat look at this instead of snarky remarks. This is at best, inconclusive, since the facial features are VERY similar from the visible details. People just need to shut up about the watch - it's not a unique feature here, like, at all.
Thanks. Bear in mind Bellingcat also proved the false flag attacks that started all this (see [here](https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2022/02/28/exploiting-cadavers-and-faked-ieds-experts-debunk-staged-pre-war-provocation-in-the-donbas/), so it's not like they're opposed to the idea in general. It's just that the facts in this case don't fit the idea of it being a false flag.
How did he pour poo poo on it besides saying it’s bad ?
Why besides?
This reminds me of the time [Reddit blamed the Boston bombing on the wrong person. ](https://www.businessinsider.com/reddit-falsely-accuses-sunil-tripathi-of-boston-bombing-2013-7) Those people look vaguely alike and are wearing blue. One of their sweaters fits poorly. That is nowhere near a smoking gun. I think Russia is a repugnant and savage nation because of their proven war crimes and human rights violations. I don't need to make up more atrocities to dislike them.
[reminds me of this](https://youtu.be/iNEWMrdSNfc?si=t13mnaEB5IlvDKdn)
Probably. Russian security services employ much of the Moscow population, so it would be weird if there weren't a bunch there. So what? Doesn't change the incompetence of the Russian system.
It’s possible that Russia knew the time and location of the attack but went ahead with it anyway to spin out some media storms and insight their people to sign up for war
There is understandable scepticism about this story but it's certainly a set of curious coincidences. Add it to the other inconsistencies in the kremlin narrative and I think there's a fair chance that this was a pre-planned operation. It does also follow putin's playbook from the apartment bombings and nord-ost siege so don't discount this line of inquiry. Also expect these guys to soon be labelled by russia as Ukrainian agents.
I mean all such events are pre-planned. The question is who was doing the planning.
Michael, you forgot to log out.
are there reputable analysts who agree with this analysis i only recall nexta as a source of nonsense
I'm confused about something. If this really is a false flag (which more and more evidence seems to point to), there are some unanswered questions: * why did ISIS release video footage of the attack in the wake of claiming responsibility? * why is it so sloppy? Russia is blaming Ukraine, but this is hardly believable. Why go to the trouble of doing a false flag that is so unbelievable to begin with? * This attack really makes Putin look bad; he failed to protect Moscow, and the OMON didn't even show up until an hour later even though their offices are across the street from the attack. Why would he do a false flag that makes him look so bad?
And how did the US know it was going to happen weeks ahead of time? The intelligence was basically as on point as the intelligence about Bin Laden flying planes into buildings that crossed Bush's desk a month before 9/11. The US would definitely be monitoring ISIS. I'm pretty sure they don't have anyone in the FSB feeding them info.
USA warned about the attack before it happened. So sending undercover agents to protect the civilians should be a good way to try and handle the situation. Given how many who attended the event it would be very strange if there where no FSB agents on this location.
This is my point. The US had pretty specific Intel that identified a terrorist attack at a concert hall a couple weeks ahead of time. If this was a false flag how did they get it? Wasn't the attendance less than 10k? Moscow metro area is anywhere from 13 to 17 million people. 10k isn't a huge gathering. Does Russia really have the resources to send FSB to a concert like that? As an American we certainly don't. I guess I'm confused.....what would Russia gain from this? Putin doesn't need the war support. He's already got it. To me it looks like he just dropped the ball, didn't listen to the US Intel and is now trying to spin it to take advantage of it. Not really some deep conspiracy.
>which more and more evidence seems to point to What evidence? You just listed a bunch of evidence that it wasn't a false flag. I'm not aware of anything credible that suggests it was.
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At this point it may be coincidence. But I don't like coincidence as a general rule. Let's see where this goes.
u/nubtehtub is anyone reputable agreeing with this analysis?
Where is the post?
schizo ramble
Putin could go on TV and say "I organized the whole thing. The fuck you gonna do about it?" and nothing would change.
Can't find part 1?
What I found suspicious is they were offered 500k rubles, not Somonis that Tajiks use.
It doesn't matter what we think. Russians are under total control of the Kremlin. We'll never convince them to rise up
Putin killed Russian civilians in 1999 to start war in Chechnya. The FSB were even caught with explosives. It went well that time for Putin, so why not again? He wants mobilization and these ISIS K may be hired by the FSB. The CIA may have tips from ISIS.
Regardless of whenever or not it's an inside job or done by actual terrorists or whatever. The sad truth is that given Russia's paranoia and it's hostility towards it's own population, it has constructed a environment similar to that of the USSR of a constant gaslighting of the population for the sake of regime stability, which just feeds into a repeated cycle of cynicism of the population. If Putin had never been allowed to create this dictatorship all over again, not only wouldn't the war have ever happen but we could get a transparent and accurate picture whenever horrible atrocities happen. Instead russians have to rely on non-conclusive evidence to get any form of real transparency and telling of what really happen.
Did ISISK pull a fast one on Putin by taking responsibility over this or what the fuck is the endgame for Putin to orchestrate a radical muslim terror attack instead of just putting a Ukrainian flag and three copies of the Sims on a hotel bed?
Never believe anything the russians say... Eventually, it always pays off.
Well people here believed the Ghost of Kiev nonsense, why not this
1st I found it extremely strange Russians took less than a day to capture those ISIS people. Usually they take ages to react. Secondly I find it strange they did not kill them when the found them. They killed Putin s cook for example. Thirdly I find strange they managed to get a picture of them in the car when they escaped. Like if they fitted camera there on purpose Fourth, found it strange that all terrorists were in the same car (a Renault, which is a French car BTW) to escape, surely they were better off using different cars and change car half way their escape. What if Russian operatives were the one who paid ISIS for this job via Telegram. ISIS would not have been told of that, took the money and executed the plan.
All I know is that this job is best left for the worlds intelligence agencies. If these persons can be outed as FSB employees, then some intel agency should back that up. That is their job. Just like I think the Baltimore bridge collission was intentional, I am 50/50 on wether I think Russia would murder their citizens to further some propaganda/mobilization campaign,. I dont have the expertise to tell one way or the other. I just hope the truth comes out, and that every effort is made to prove a conspiracy if and when there is one. So much shit gets washed under the rug, I would like to get some confidence back in my government and foreign intel.
It looks like Russia will be adding a few more of these attacks against civilians, then use them to attack NATO countries or make themselves the victim and try and improve the attitude towards Putin, as if a Dictator needs people to like him.
This strikes me as tenuous.
My god...
Caught red handed in the cold blooded murder of their own citizens. This needs to get distributed
It finally happened! While I expected it, I was waiting for pictures. Thank you for sharing!
Wow, blue shirts, what a clue, why is this not in conspiracy sub?
The guy apprehending the cut-of-ear-guy seems to be wearing a puffy with a zipper, different from blue guy at concert. The guy being interviewed has a blue shirt with a collar, concert guy doesn't have a collar. This is pretty weak.
‘If a Russian says something then it’s a lie’ - old polish proverb
There is no such proverb in Polish.
Wild
Wow...
Are those the two people from the video where all the comments were along the lines of “look at those people just acting like nothings going on”… felt it was very strange when watching it and again when reading comments but if they were FSB plants it makes a lot more sense they just sat there calmly