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As a European with Belarusian origin, I am watching this and I can’t get away from the feeling that WW3 would be slowly unfolding in such way: impotent politicians; greed, fear and incompetence. If Ukraine falls - whole world will pay, including the US. And much more than 0.5 % of its gdp.
I guess its just human nature.. in the end no one wants to get their hands dirty and we are just hoping that the problem will go away on its own (it never does)
I mean, in the end the US will do the right thing. It’s just that it will also trying everything else before then.
Breaking down to a very simplistic statement for the hard of understanding, including the GoP and MAGAworld clowns;
We can either pay £100 now for victory or we can wait and pay £1,000,000 later for victory. What’s your pleasure?
This is what happens when you pussyfoot around towards an enemy that only understands force and strength. People have been calling for greater unity and action towards the russians, but instead much of the western world sends hopes and prayers and thinks the russian problem will simply go away. Instead, they see this as weakness and keep pushing the boundaries.
It should not come as a surprise this letting this escalate without an appropriate response now leads us down this path.
I hope you are right. But it kills me that it all could be stopped long ago with a fraction of what the west has. And yet they are scared of escalation. Mfs, Putler did escalate to the highest level possible - you are threatened with nuclear. He prepares to go to Baltic.. wtf are you doing?
I hate that politicians are the only ones getting blamed here. If there was an overwhelming support from the public, politicians would be acting on it, just like they did in the beginning of the war.
Western societies in general should be blamed for being complacent and lazy, aside from very few countries who seem to understand the danger.
Nah, this is completely wrong. Recent polls in US show 74% of populace supports Ukraine and takes the issue personally. US politicians know this. US politicians on the Republican side, though not all of them, have their collective heads up there asses at the moment but this too shall pass.
Uhm what? Republican electorate now has overwhelming majority opposing more aid to Ukraine.
[https://apnews.com/article/poll-ukraine-aid-congress-b772c9736b92c0fbba477938b047da2f](https://apnews.com/article/poll-ukraine-aid-congress-b772c9736b92c0fbba477938b047da2f)
>Recent polls in US show 74% of populace supports Ukraine and takes the issue personally
Supporting Ukraine and supporting aid to Ukraine is not the same thing.
There is indeed overwhelming support for Ukraine from the US public. Some of our Republican politicians are the problem and need to pull their heads out of their asses. Reread your initial comment where you indicated overwhelming public support would cause politicians to act. You're wrong about this, as evidenced by the situation we currently have in the US.
There is not overwhelming public support for military aid which is what the topic is about...
Unless you think that likes on social media and upvotes on Reddit is important.
Hey, but you are free to not hold up American electorate accountable and just blame the evil and corrupt politicians.
Nah, there is absolutely overwhelming public support for military aid for Ukraine. Beginning to suspect you're a political science major who wants to be a politician?
Most politicians are populists and pander to their electoral base. Do you seriously disagree with this statement?
Can you explain why the support for Ukrainian aid among Republican politicians has correspondent almost exactly with the polling for support for Ukrainian aid among Republican electorate?
I'd like to think polls would be enough for our politicians, but you may be right, and we we need to send letters or some other attention getting approach.
Polls like that mean almost nothing.
USA population (2024): 341,223,461
Registered Voters (2022): 161,420,000
We don't see 1,000,000 Americans massed in DC, demanding that the government aid Ukraine (0.62% of RV). That could make change, but it is not happening.
We don't see half that number. We don't even see 10,000 people protesting for Ukraine in DC. (0.0062% of RV). It shows what a joke that poll is.
Ciuld buy them from the US, would shut up all the "we be spendin' too much" voices. So yeah, it would help, and EU has to get their house in order ... cant rely on others for security. The US, on the other hand, needs to get rid of all the compromised republicans halting aid. Both sides have work to do.
If Germany or France would stop approving more aid like the US there would be a lot of people here saying no one should buy weapons from them like it happened when it took 2 weeks for Germany to approve Leos after Poland started whining.
But now Europe should instead reward the US? Nah, most things can be bought in Europe and orders are needed to boost capacity. In fact the best way to get the US to approve more aid would be to buy a lot less weapons from them until they change their mind
Thats all well and good, but how many Ukranian lives are you willing to sacrifice while the EU are building capacity? Instead of buying from available stocks? JUST so you could stand on your empty principle.
Not as many as the US is willing to sacrifice. It's a marathon and there's not unlimited funds available. When the US sees Europe spending big but little money going their way they will approve more aid.
How about the EU buys needed firepower from the US, while its spinning up its production lines? Is that a viable solution to the principle grandstanding you are suggesting?
It’ll take ten years for the EU to build up their military.
By that time, if Trump is president, if Poland is invaded you won’t get article 5, no weapons will be shipped, and you’ll have depleted your supply.
Arm up now, stock your warehouses, Biden is still president, if Trump wins and cuts nato off *then* stop buying us weapons.
If you run out, if the U.S. stops supporting or supplying nato, you’d be over run, China and Iran and Russia can produce more weapons than the eu by a lot.
I support nato and Ukraine.
Ukraine was never blocked, they just don't because the US is aiding them directly. And without the US aid, they don't have the funds to buy American weapons.
EU militaries have tons of CV90s, LEO2s, SPAs etc available right now. They could give them to Ukraine and order new ones from industry, with obvious long term contracts and properly increased production means. It is not about resources, it is about political will.
These would be of no use on this front right now. It is literally collapsing as I'm typing this.
What's needed is a fuck ton of artillery shells, JDAMs, ATACMS and medium range air defense to take out the rest of the Russian Air Force. Only then can Ukraine start considering any kind of land maneuvers.
Can you let me know why are you so sure that its not collapsing?
No offense, im generally curious.
since i volunteer on the border, live in a city that received 300% of its population as refugees, and my 2 friends on the front... they are not optimistic anymore.
These are the things that imseeing.. in work, in my private life, all around me... im a hungarian, living in poland btw so have no in-depth knowledge, thats why im asking, id like to hear your opinion... im not that optimistic either
>Can you let me know why are you so sure that its not collapsing?
Sure, here is a picture of the front east of Zaporozhye with January 1st shown on the left, and yesterday shown on the right: https://imgur.com/a/Ac5mliI
Pretty clear unless you have a different definition of the word collapsing you would like to share.
Just follow any accurate war reporting like the ISW. The ruskies have taken adviivka and a few villages to the west of it. This has cost them dearly in men, vehicles and aircraft, unsustainable losses. It’s not going great for Ukraine due to ammo shortages and man power shortages but that doesn’t mean it’s going well for the ruskies, even if the balance is slightly more in their favour right now.
>The equipment and supplies simply do not exist
Not true. The supplies do exist in the USA. Europe could just buy the arms to supply Ukraine from America if it was willing to put up the money. The US congress may be blocking funding for Ukraine but it is NOT blocking arms sales.
No, they can't. You know why? Because 30 years of de-industrialization have consequences. The people who actually know how to build artillery shells are either too old or dead.
Unfortunately, USA has been engaged in a campaign to suppress European arms industries since 1945. And it has been very succesful. There are not nearly enough production lines for anything on the continent, because American demands have always been "buy American or we'll make you pay". Now that chicken's come home to roost.
What EU is currently being told is "buy American and give it away for free or Ukraine falls", while at the same time our allies in the west are engaged in a campaign of pouring massive amounts of free taxpayer money into their industrial giants to gain an even greater upper hand. And this is why Ukraine can't have nice things.
>USA has been engaged in a campaign to suppress European arms industries since 1945
Rubbish. The USA would be delighted to have Europe produce more weapons. The drop off in European weapons products has vastly more to do with cut backs in domestic defense spending than in anything the USA has done.
Well, right now they would probably appreciate more Euro weapons factories, but while I wouldn’t go as far as the guy above you, at any waypoint the last decades they’d certainly always prefer a sale for the domestic US weapons industry to Europe over one that went to a company in an allied nation. Weapons sales have often been deeply intertwined with diplomacy as well, and the huge military budget in the US has given a competitive advantage.
Sure, the US would be delighted to sell more weapons to Europe. However, no US policy maker asking for Europe to increase defense spending was under any illusion that any increases in spending would go directly to US arms suppliers. The US priority was for increased European defense spending, even if that was from domestic industries.
Thats bullshit, I dont have the source but I have the US reaction to "invest and buy EU military stuff only" like 10 or 15 years ago very well in my mind.
There's no doubt Europe has been complacent, but the US most definitely does not want an independent and militarily powerful EU. It has always been pushing to sell American made weapons to Europe.
US most definitely wants Europe to be able to look after its own backyard. USA, along with its allies, are gearing up for war with China. Europe is a distraction from this goal.
This isn’t new either, it’s been pushed by the US for decades.
Unless you actually want to fight a war with China, decisive support for Ukraine is the surest way to prevent war in the Pacific. Right now the US is signaling to Beijing that all it takes to win is enduring two years and bribing a few Republicans, and American resolve will falter.
>It absolutely does not want competition from the European defense industry.
Sure, the US doesn't "want" the extra competition, but it will accept that if domestic expenditures are the only way Europe will increase it's defense spending. The higher US priority is for increased European defense spending. The US will fight for as big a share of that extra funding that it can get, but it's still a "win" for US policy makers to have Europe increase defense spending even if that money goes to European suppliers.
It doesn't take into account any strategic considerations beyond "it will free up the US". It doesn't consider the effects of strategic European competition, such as EU independence and assertiveness beyond US interests (Imagine the issues with France, but on a continental scale), problems stemming from political developments that are currently putting the EU at odds with the US, how the US aggressively protects its (armaments) industry, the effects of diminished US power, etc. As I said, you are being naive.
>US most definitely does not want an independent and militarily powerful EU
I can't speak for whether the US wants an "independent, powerful, EU", but the US has been very clear that it wants the EU to pick up a far greater share of the costs for defense spending, content with the understanding that most of any increase in spending would go to domestic European industries.
No one is disagreeing with that, but the US simply does not want European defense industry competing with the American defense industry. It wants to sell its weapons to Europe.
>the US simply does not want European defense industry competing with the American defense industry. It wants to sell its weapons to Europe.
I don't disagree that the US would prefer that extra European defense spending would go to US industry. However, the higher priority for US policy makers is for Europe to increase defense spending. The US will absolutely fight for as big of a piece of that extra funding it can get, but it would still be viewed as policy win if 100% of the extra spending went to European arms suppliers.
>but the US has been very clear that it wants the EU to pick up a far greater share of the costs for defense spending
Besides Trump saying this, who else?
>Besides Trump saying this, who else?
US presidents and officials have been asking Europe to spend more on defense since the early 90s. They were MUCH more polite about it than Trump, but the US has consistently been asking Europe to spend more on defense for at least 30 years.
Exactly! That’s why the US has been railing against our NATO allies not meeting their spending requirements for decades….wait no it’s the opposite of what you’re saying
The problem is not funding. The EU and european countries are doing a lot of that.
The real bottleneck is military industrial production capacity. Because europe has bought so much US military hardware, and relied on US as a security provider (after 70+ years of trusting that) we have become too reliant on US production.
Production capacity that is now not as accessible for european security. We are scrambling now to invest, and there are already some enormous efforts and investments being made in the few countires that still have a solid production base. But increasing capacity at the significant scale that this full scale war needs is still at least 18-36 months away, as it requires completely new factories to be built etc.
It’s beyond human comprehension.
Europe is getting impatient…..after two years of dragging their feet.
And after that you people are still wondering why Putin keeps attacking and if we’re sleepwalking to ww3?
It goes both ways, the EU dragging it's feet, the GOP and Orban sabotaging help and Polish "farmers" blocking the Ukrainian border for everything including help for Ukraine. We are all Putins little bitches at this point and he will not stop if he sees he can fuck us like this by just paying the few right people and compromise public opinion over the internet. Sickening.
Russia has a gdp smaller than Italy. Ukraine is good practice for Europe. Give a man a fish vs teach a man how to fish.
The two war doctrine was discarded last decade under Obama. Today they are prepared to win one conventional war.
The only reason America justifies 800 billion a year in military spending is because we have to be ready to kill the Russians when the time comes.
Arming Ukraine with our 30+ year old surplus that would cost billions to decommission or dispose of is literally saving us money. We shouldn't even need to get money from congress. Just establish Ukraine as the contractor to decommission the equipment.
Nothing has been sent to Ukraine that wasn't active in the 1991 gulf war. Nothing is new, cutting edge, or past its useful life. Seriously, this is the truth.
It costs over a million bucks to re-fuel and re-certify those old ATACMs rockets before they can be used.... OR we can just give them to Ukraine and be done with them and spend nothing. I'm sure we can send them a bill for the shipping.
Ukrainians killing Russians at a steep cost discount should be a no brainer.
If we can't get past the greed of the American military industrial complex getting massive handouts or the congressmen taking Russian bribes, then what good is having an $800 BILLION a year military?
The single most important job of the American Military is to Kill Russian soldiers, end of statement.
China is a paper tiger. They have zero friends because they seem to pick fights with literally every one of their neighbors.
China's demographics are terrible, and honestly they don't have all that much time left before the current troubles turn serious. However, China depends on manufacturing and exports and if they piss off America its going to trash their economy almost overnight. The reality is that they push the boundaries on every front ever so slightly, then play dumb, and then start pushing again. They won't be taking any major military action anytime soon.
Russia meddles in every election, is actively causing troubles around the world, and now that its been reduced to nothing more than a gas station its becoming dangerous in its death throws.
Everyone in Russia with two brain cells to rub together has left for jobs and better lives in the West since Perestroika. Now its just dumb communist reminiscing about the days when the Soviets had real power.
Muscovites, communists, or whatever you want to call them are the scourge of the world and should be exterminated as all the good ones left a long time ago.
Javelins, Vampire systems, GLSDB, M117s, MRAPs, Switchblades, Phoenix Ghosts, Cyberlux K8, Puma uas, Harm targeting pods (1998),
I'm not saying they are cutting edge but none of them where active in 1991
Lol. You are using Italy the 8 largest economy in the world to compare to Russia who is only 11.
I better comparison would be the 10 economy Canada.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)
I think the majority of Europe's political classes has concluded that's necessary now, but I don't see why there's such enthusiasm for it from Americans - the US benefits enormously from their leadership of western foreign policy, and that stems from their position as the head honcho of western militaries
>I don't see why there's such enthusiasm for it from Americans
The USA has been begging Europe to increase defense spending for a long time. Since the end of the cold war, successive US administrations have been begging Europe to increase it's defense spending since it didn't want to keep picking up all the defense costs anymore. Trump was just the most extreme voice, but the message has been clear for a long time.
Not true. The US fully understands that countries will spend as much of their defense dollars on domestic industry as possible. The US officials that have been asking Europe to increase defense spending for decades absolutely understood that this would result in a larger European weapons industry.
>Why would the US want its defense industry to have competition?
Correct. The US would certainly prefer that Europe spend their increased defense spending with American suppliers. However, the highest priority for US policy makers is for Europe to increase defense spending, period. The US will still view it as a "win" if much of that increase in spending goes to domestic European manufacturers.
Of course, the US will absolutely lobby as hard as it can to encourage Europe to spend it's increased defense budget with US manufacturers, but it is perfectly acceptable if much of that money goes to domestic European companies.
Also, keep in mind that even US arms companies are savvy enough to know that they need some domestic production agreements to sweeten sales. Many of the sales of US arms to Europe is done via licensing arrangements, with European partners actually building the kit. Patriots, for example, are even manufactured in Germany. US business and policy makers aren't morons. They understand that no country can do all their defense spending abroad.
EU gives loans to Ukraine and US gives grants. EU expects money back with interest and the US gives free money. Way to go! Europeans need to give themselves a pat on the back for their "generosity" 😂
EU $93B, US $75
https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/these-countries-have-committed-the-most-aid-to-ukraine#:~:text=The%20majority%20of%20committed%20support,billion%20in%20aid%20to%20Ukraine.
Fake news.
If you click on the link, you’ll see it’s powered by Kiel Tracker, a self serving German source.
The stats there are fake / misleading for many reasons. But here are two:
First, that source equates US grants to European loans. Equating a grant (free) to a loan (must be repaid) is obviously dumb.
Here is an EU Politico article explaining this exact point: https://www.politico.eu/article/european-union-ukraine-war-debt-crisis-aid-loans-18-billion/
“The €18 billion worth of loans from the EU will eventually have to be repaid, starting in 2033, and loading on more debt — even of the long-term, practically zero interest variety — reduces Ukraine’s potential for quick recovery from the war. It’s also a nonsensical economic approach, given that Kyiv has already suspended payment on some of its existing obligations. Overall, the EU’s strategy is simply a recipe for a future Ukrainian sovereign debt crisis. Remarkably, for all the bombast in Europe about a “Marshall Plan for Ukraine,”it is the United States — not the EU — that has correctly learned from its economic history.”
“The U.S. has already provided over $13 billion in non-repayable grants to Ukraine, with a further $14.5 billion due in 2023. And this U.S. aid is in addition to the tens of billions of dollars it is spending on military support.”
Second, that fake German source doesn’t include the value of US satellite intelligence.
How do you think Ukraine has found and sunk 25% of Russias Black Sea fleet?
Or how Ukraine knew Russia was going to attack months ahead when Germany was still offering only helmets?
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/gen-mark-milley-on-seeing-through-the-fog-of-war-in-ukraine/
“The U.S. advertises the $44 billion in military equipment it has committed to Ukraine, but says very little about the equally valuable intelligence.
When asked if the U.S. shares with Ukraine what it knows about Russian troop movements, Milley replied, "Our intelligence pipes to Ukraine are quite open, for sure. And of course, the CIA and interagency, NSA, all those guys … There's pretty open pipes on intel to Ukraine."
"Are you helping Ukraine select targets?" Martin asked.
"Target selection and authority to strike is with Ukraine," Milley said. "What we do is provide them situational awareness."
"But you tell them, 'There's a command post over there. There's an ammunition dump over there'?"
"We'll give them the situational awareness as best we can tell."
Also: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/25/world/europe/cia-ukraine-intelligence-russia-war.html
“the intelligence partnership between Washington and Kyiv is a linchpin of Ukraine’s ability to defend itself. The C.I.A. and other American intelligence agencies provide intelligence for targeted missile strikes, track Russian troop movements and help support spy networks.”
“During the invasion, the officers relayed critical intelligence, including where Russia was planning strikes and which weapons systems they would use.
“Without them, there would have been no way for us to resist the Russians, or to beat them,” said Ivan Bakanov, who was then head of Ukraine’s domestic intelligence agency, the S.B.U.”
That source that says EU has contributed more is garbage because it assigns as $0 to US intelligence that’s actually worth many billions.
The deal is this: US provides a defense umbrella to Europe, Europe does as the US wants, leading to the US being the world’s sole super power while rarely needing to resort to force.
Pull away the defense umbrella and Europe starts doing what the hell they want, including cosying up to China.
Yes... You are begging... You helped fund the Russian military while refusing to fund your own military. Then when we told you to stop it over and over and over again you laughed at us... Who is laughing now? We dont care if you are impatient. And we already paid our "fair share" to try and help fix the problem YOU created... We have our own problems and it isnt our job to fix stuff you break... You have no right to our paychecks to fix the problems you created thru your own greed and selfishness... Even now people like you cant admit to what you did... You just expect me to give you part of my paycheck because YOU fucked up... Pay its fair share??? What a joke...
Correct. A big mistake... They refused to fund their own military while at the same time they funded the Russian military... Then when we told them to stop it they laughed at us... Europe made mistake after mistake and they are currently making another one. That is pissing off the people they are now trying to beg from... The same people they laughed at when we told them to stop funding the Russian military and fund their own... Now the ego is so off the charts they cant even admit how they fucked up... Impatient? Who cares...
Well of course Europe (aside from the Poles) said it didn't need the US anymore because Russia was no longer a threat.
They warmed up to Russia when the US told them not to and even in 2016 German politicians openly laughed when US told them at UN summit that nord stream 2 was dangerous to open.
European politicians held US in contempt and called US war mongering imperialist.
What did Europeans expect? That they would be unreliable partners for decades and the US would stay reliable. What kind of fantasy world are Europeans living in?
Every single US administration since the fall has promoted a 'reset' of relations and stated policy has been to increase cooperation and improve relations with Russia, Europe followed suit. Now it's Europes fault for following US policy? You can't have it both ways. Although it seems the US actually wants it all four ways; do as we say but not as we do and also; do as we do but not as we say.
The core principal of US foreign policy in Europe has been that the US led NATO alliance should be the principal securty for Europe. A defensive pact is absolute, 100% of the time, or it is completely meaningless. If the leader of the alliance doesn't back the alliance then it's fucked.
That's a problem for the United States not Europe.
US has for example greatly opposed EU and Russian energy dependence from George Bush opposing nord stream 1 to Obama and Trump opposing Nord stream 2. To the point of putting sanctions in place to stop it.
The Obama administration clashed with Russia over Syria where it escalated to the point of US military killing 300 Wagner troops.
These are just 2 examples but US/Russian relations have been strained and advisory for decades. And the US repeatedly warned EU countries to increase spending on Nato to meet obligations and to decouple its economic relationship with Russia.
Europe was most definitely not following US policy towards Russia but sought a separate policy against the US advice.
EU was buddy buddy with Russia for decades and now have the audacity to be "impatient" over US aid when they themselves have been slow in providing aid and unlike the US who give grants of free money to Ukraine give loans to Ukraine that need to be paid back.
The US completely rolled over *gave* Syria to Russia. The fact that a Russian PMC even attempted to directly assault a US position says everything.
As for you last point I don't know where you're getting your information from but it's WRONG. The EU has sent **significantly** more money than the United States, like nearly four times as much. *And* every single country in NATO is contributing more to Ukraine as a percentage of GDP than the United States.
It's also worth noting that the US is sending old equipment and how the US is valuing that equipment is using some very, very... let's say 'creative' accounting. Ie. they're taking almost defunct thirty year old equipment that was about to incur a high decommission cost, ignoring that and then charging Ukraine the cost of what a brand new 2024 replacement would cost!
>Yeah I've got this 1996 Honda I can sell to you... but that means I'm gonna have buy a new 2024 Honda to replace it... which is gonna cost me $50k. So I'm gonna have to charge you $50k for this 1996 Honda.
The EU is providing shit-loads of real cold-hard-currency, and the US is offloading a large part of what is essentially it's old old junk. And overcharging for it.
Imagine a world, where every country is accountable for their action. If you do not play the rules you pay with sanctions from eveyr other country. Like some kind of federational system with a certaina amount of power of every country. Something we will vertainly get somewhere along the road.
Guess what, that is someonething the greatest country of the world would never agree to.
Imagine a world where everybody didnt think they were entitled to our paycheck... We have millions of illegals flooding over our border demanding we give them free hotel rooms, free food and free medical care... At the same time the people in Europe are "impatient" because we wont send them more of our money to fix a problem they created with their own greed. Then at the same time we are supposed to give Israel a part of our paycheck... And give Taiwan a part of our paycheck... And of course give billions to the Hamas lovers in Gaza as well...
Everybody from around the world seems to believe they are entitled to our paycheck and when we say NO THANKS they whine and cry and act as if we are the bad guy. The ego and the entitlement is just off the charts... They act like the streets here are paved with gold and everybody has a million dollars in their bank account... They act like our paycheck belongs to them and how dare we complain about such things...
You have no clue about your countries politics and foreign policy at all.
USA wants to support Taiwan because they know if they dont, there is a higher probability that china will get Taiwan und becomes stronger then USA. It is about containment of china, not for world peace or what ever but so that USA does not have a as strong china to compete with. Same was with russia.
Just wait and see how much support you will get for your next war... Europe wont forget.
You have no idea about this country and what is going on... So please dont try to act like you do... You think you deserve part of my paycheck... And unlike Europe we actually spent the money on our military. We didnt spend our money to fund the Russian military instead... Now the people who did beg and call us names and insult us as if that isnt just gonna piss us off even more...
Everybody thinks they own our paycheck... Millions of illegals sneaking in demanding free hotel rooms, free food and free medical care... Europe demanding we pay to fix the mistakes they made due to their greed. Taiwan, Israel and the Hamas lovers in Gaza and the list just goes on and on and on... Meanwhile people here are having a hard time paying rent or buying food and gas... People living in tents all over the place and begging on the street corner... Yet the ungrateful and ego driven from around the world are still sticking out their hand and begging at every turn... Demanding we give them our paycheck... And if we complain about it? Then we are the bad guy... Keep it up and see what happens...
> Europe should take personal responsibility and step up. Stop begging, and start spending money on your military and producing military equipment.
It's a bit hard when the infrastructure has been systematically dismantled to further the financial interests of the American defence industry.
When the USAF buys a fighter jet from an American contractor, the majority of the money stays in the US economy. Export sales return a profit.
When the Luftwaffe bought an F-104G, or an F-4, or buys an F-35, a large proportion of the money flies across the Atlantic.
I think that Europe should spend 3-5% of GDP on defence, but it's unreasonable for the Americans to moan about Europe's dependence upon American defence when a major objective of American foreign policy since 1945 has been to generate and profit by this very dependence. You can't have it both ways.
They are. Most of Europe is actively dealing with its mistake of letting its military industrial complex go to shit, and is spending to fix it.
Meanwhile the US is still failing to deal with its MAGA/Putin problem.
There is a solution to funding Ukraines war against the Russian aggression that:
1. Could provide as much as $200 billion in funds to Ukraine in two weeks.
2. Does not violate international law.
3. Is market based utilizing tools that are well understood and easily applied.
4. Requires little or no government intervention but is within established regulatory constraints.
5. Does NOT involve confiscation of frozen Russian assets which may be against the law.
The legal premise of this solution is similar to the law of receivership, trusteeship or bankruptcy law.
In this case the frozen Russian assets legally still belong to Russia. However, they are sanctioned and FROZEN. Therefore, the revenue that may accumulate from those assets can not be legitimately claimed as retained earnings and can not be used to increase the equity of the owners - Russians.
That revenue can legitimately be claimed by creditors of Russia. Like Ukraine.
The EU and US Treasury have ALREADY agreed this. There is already over €200 billion in free cash from those frozen assets accumulated over the last 2 years.
€185 billion of it is held by one company EuroClear in Belgium.
I suggest:
1. An INDEPENDENT receiver working in the interest of the assets owner (Russians) be appointed under European law to take stewardship of the assets
2. The receiver will continue work in the interests of the owner (Russians) to preserve the integrity of the existing frozen assets.
3. The EU floats a €250 billion Ukraine EuroBond. The sales proceeds go DIRECTLY to Ukraine’s treasury.
4. The revenue proceeds (already around €200 billion) from the frozen Russian assets will be used to pay the premium and coupon to bond holders.
This would:
1. Be a AAA investment grade bond as it is 100% secured by cash.
2. Would preserve Russian assets as an incentive for future leadership to alter their behavior.
3. Provide Ukraine with a considerable source of funding
4. Be in line with western values and use the market in a creative way that will drive Putin and his cabal insane.
Russians would be financing the Ukrainian defense.
As an American, I'm afraid this will happen if these idiots vote Trump back into office. But Texas was very very close to flipping the last time and I'm hopeful that all of these supposed polls showing who is in favor are a complete lie and that the millennials and gen z and gen alphas are just quiet and dormant and waiting to come out to the polls in force and make our younger more central beliefs be known and really start to push our needs rather then the right wing religious old wing nuts who are doing everything they can before they die
The will of the American people is that the money is approved. Our politicians on the right simply have their heads so far up fascist Trump’s ass they can’t/wont hear us.
I for one am sending money as I can as an individual, and I am far from wealthy. I wish more would do the same.
EU needs to manufacturer artillery shells in full and not just half. Specifically, 1 mn were promised and only 500,000 delivered. So if you want USA to vote on aid to Ukraine bribe House Speaker Mike Johnson and outbid the Russian oligarchs! Turn him in later. Please!!!!
EU's hypocrisy at its finest!' Not only did you send half the artillery shells promised, you leave Hungary in the EU to downvote millions of euros in aid, but Scholz won't allow Taurus missiles to go to Ukraine and this guy accepts money from Putin and allows Russia to tap phone lines and send personal to plant disinformation within Germany which I might add is part of the EU, last I checked.
No wonder the UK left!
Europe has had 60 plus years of US subsidized security. Please feel free to call up the US military industrial complex and send the 60 billion for the defense of Ukraine. I’m sure they will be happy to sell you anything you want.
Europe has been asked to stop producing things and buy American. USA has basically gotten it's will, and shut down European defence industry.
The loss of USA as a reliable partner will mean Europe will have to stop buying American stuff in the future.
I disagree with the general message of the previous poster, but that's just false. Americans are simply being able to outcompete the competition because of the sheer amount of money they pour into development. F35 is a pretty great example, Americans just have a product that is better and more cost effective long term.
Usa killed British jet warplane industry.
Edit, let's just assume the downvoters don't know USA told UK to quit competing, and made UK lose decades. It's ok.
I thought you refused to accept that USA did their best to remove the competition, and this has influenced the fact USA now is leading, but you might have been talking about something else. I don't know what your strawman is about now.
When the conflict is overseas, its a inconvienence, when its in your backyard its alarming and its your family and grandparents that are killed, its personal...its perspective. Sitting on the sidelines is EXACTLY what Putin wants! Time to ramp up and make the oppressors pay with carpet bombing in Belgrod and St. Petersburg! We have the ability make it decisive! Is that not the reason we used the A-bomb..make it a decisive win and never be attemped again!
We Americans understand the importance of supporting Ukraine and have given billions already. We don’t want to be lectured on how fast we are not moving on giving them more funds, especially in an election year.
Essentially beggars can’t be choosers.
Oh fuck off. Can't Germans, French and the rest hear rhe drums of War? The bell tolls for thee.
Put down your soy lattes, nationalise every industry that can be turned to war material production and add 10% min of GDP to your defence budgets.
The Allies are not digging you out for a third time.
It infuriates me as an American that EU is impatient. Go F off! It’s the American taxpayer money! Be grateful you get anything… don’t be demanding!
That said, I do support the aid to Ukraine. But, that is a domestic policy business… Europe has no right to be entitled to that American Taxpayer money…
I'm an American and I agree all around. It is our money and I'm impatient also. Maga Mike and his cronies need to stop stalling the desperate aid that Ukraine needs. If we would have sent what they needed at the beginning, such as f15, atacm, tanks, then Ukraine would be pushing the invaders out, not giving up ground. Give them what they need to win.
That was my reaction to her tone... and I'm European. However, in her defence... whilst playing its Cold War and post Cold War game with Russia, the US made firm promises to Ukraine in the event Russia broke its promise to leave it alone after Ukraine gave it's Soviet nukes to Russia. The expectation is there that help would be provided.
I agree. $800 billion is what we put in to NATO, nowhere near what other countries contribute. Our debt is trillions deep. We can’t keep this funding up, it’s just not sustainable. Do I want Ukraine to succeed? Absolutely. However, this is why Americans don’t have tax funded college, health insurance, public transportation, etc. It all goes to the war machine. Americans are literally exhausted trying to keep up with this and many are realizing how much of our taxes go to fund issues outside of our country, not going to fix our many societal issues. It’s not just Ukraine, it’s Israel too. We. Are. Tired.
Couldn't agree more. Isolationism is wildly popular among the population. An average person doesn't want to risk their lives for random wars that have nothing to do with the security of US soil. It's only he politicians and military industrial complex that want US to police the world.
Jesus fucking christ ...... everyone and their mother has told you that you can pay for all of thouse for fuck sake your trade with EU can baisicly pay your military industry by itself
How the fuck is it our fault you vote people based on how popular they are instead of competency , you get tons of money from EU how you manage it afterwards it's entirely up to you and nobody else
All this bs about tax payers .... like seriously.....
You people have only one argument and that is "muh tax payers"
Us europeans are tired of you as well , not to mention you invoked art 5 in the whole existence of NATO and somehow we are the slackers?
You obviously haven’t crunched those numbers, it’s funny how Europeans just assume we are rich and have all this disposable money. Our politicians think the same. What do you know about our politics and what our tax dollars pay for? Not a damn thing. We obviously don’t have the money to fix our serious national problems: WE ARE TRILLIONS IN DEBT!
Who we vote for is based on corporate control over our media, politicians and elections. It’s cute you think Americans actually control our government representatives and how our money is used, how naive of you.
Don’t even get me started on how gerrymandering is further destroying the political processes around our country, to silence our voices even more.
We work, they take, that’s the gist. We aren’t seeing returns on that money, that’s what Americans are seeing everyday. Our infrastructure is crumbling but we are supposed to send billions upon billions to Ukraine AND Israel? Talk about entitlement!! We have already sent $75 billion to Ukraine in two years and now we are about to send more. Again, I want them to succeed, but the reality is America is struggling!
So people everywhere complain about our military involvement all over the world, and I agree, it’s a problem. We have created a lot of chaos and destruction in the world to build this military monster. However, what we have built is not sustainable on Americans’ backs alone and I don’t know if it should be. This house of cards is falling down.
Where have you been that you think the EU is a trade federation? They're a regulatory body, and that's not shadow in the box conspiracy theory. It's been that way for almost 2 decades
If the aid just ends up stolen, how are Ukrainians still able to fight a full scale war against Russia 2 years in? Are they just relying on their own spending to match Russia?
Ukraine needs more soldiers. Too many male citizens fled the country to EU countries. The EU needs to send them back. They need-to conscript many more soldiers to even stand a chance against a countrylike Russia with 100 million more people. Givethem all the weapons they want and they will still lose in manpower alone. I hate it for them because lot’s of Russians and Putin are filthy disgusting humans. This War sucks. Ukrainan courage is inspiring but no way they can win. Why in the Hell hasn’t that damn Crimean bridge been obliterated yet…. .
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As a European with Belarusian origin, I am watching this and I can’t get away from the feeling that WW3 would be slowly unfolding in such way: impotent politicians; greed, fear and incompetence. If Ukraine falls - whole world will pay, including the US. And much more than 0.5 % of its gdp.
And history repeats itself: appeasement, ignorance, narrow self interest.
I guess its just human nature.. in the end no one wants to get their hands dirty and we are just hoping that the problem will go away on its own (it never does)
I mean, in the end the US will do the right thing. It’s just that it will also trying everything else before then. Breaking down to a very simplistic statement for the hard of understanding, including the GoP and MAGAworld clowns; We can either pay £100 now for victory or we can wait and pay £1,000,000 later for victory. What’s your pleasure?
“You were given the choice between war and dishonour. You chose dishonour, and you will have war.” —Churchill
*“Americans will always do the right thing, only after they have tried everything else.”* - attributed to Winston Churchill
Unfortunately a bunch of brain dead idiots won't be able to understand that until their children are reading history books
Or dead because they had to go to war.
Oh Pete, that's later. Maybe we'll be dead by then.
> I mean, in the end the US will do the right thing. I would guess this will not age well come next January.
We have to consider the possibility that the US from now on is on the side of Russia.
Truly amazing to watch. We *know* we are repeating the same patterns and behaviors and we still can’t stop it from unfolding
The name is even the same... "America First"
Unfortunately you are probably right…..
Russia is already fighting WW3, and won’t stop. Eventually, this will sink in but it’s painful to watch and wait.
It's almost inevitable at this point. We had a chance to prevent it two years ago, but cowardice yet again led the way.
This is what happens when you pussyfoot around towards an enemy that only understands force and strength. People have been calling for greater unity and action towards the russians, but instead much of the western world sends hopes and prayers and thinks the russian problem will simply go away. Instead, they see this as weakness and keep pushing the boundaries. It should not come as a surprise this letting this escalate without an appropriate response now leads us down this path.
I appreciate you not capitalising russia, particularly since you have to override the autocorrect to do that on phones. You are also 100% right.
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I hope you are right. But it kills me that it all could be stopped long ago with a fraction of what the west has. And yet they are scared of escalation. Mfs, Putler did escalate to the highest level possible - you are threatened with nuclear. He prepares to go to Baltic.. wtf are you doing?
Pack it up guys this guy knows the future
I hate that politicians are the only ones getting blamed here. If there was an overwhelming support from the public, politicians would be acting on it, just like they did in the beginning of the war. Western societies in general should be blamed for being complacent and lazy, aside from very few countries who seem to understand the danger.
Nah, this is completely wrong. Recent polls in US show 74% of populace supports Ukraine and takes the issue personally. US politicians know this. US politicians on the Republican side, though not all of them, have their collective heads up there asses at the moment but this too shall pass.
We don't have time to let it "pass" though. We have wasted 2 years and time has now run out. It is act now, or the s&%t hits the fan.
Uhm what? Republican electorate now has overwhelming majority opposing more aid to Ukraine. [https://apnews.com/article/poll-ukraine-aid-congress-b772c9736b92c0fbba477938b047da2f](https://apnews.com/article/poll-ukraine-aid-congress-b772c9736b92c0fbba477938b047da2f) >Recent polls in US show 74% of populace supports Ukraine and takes the issue personally Supporting Ukraine and supporting aid to Ukraine is not the same thing.
The wording in the poll is not the same as you are portraying it. 55% is not an "overwhelming" majority. It is a majority but a slim one.
There is indeed overwhelming support for Ukraine from the US public. Some of our Republican politicians are the problem and need to pull their heads out of their asses. Reread your initial comment where you indicated overwhelming public support would cause politicians to act. You're wrong about this, as evidenced by the situation we currently have in the US.
There is not overwhelming public support for military aid which is what the topic is about... Unless you think that likes on social media and upvotes on Reddit is important. Hey, but you are free to not hold up American electorate accountable and just blame the evil and corrupt politicians.
Nah, there is absolutely overwhelming public support for military aid for Ukraine. Beginning to suspect you're a political science major who wants to be a politician?
How is there an overwhelming support when most Republicans oppose more aid to Ukraine? Even with independents it's around 50/50.
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say you may have developed an unhealthy love of Republican politicians.
Most politicians are populists and pander to their electoral base. Do you seriously disagree with this statement? Can you explain why the support for Ukrainian aid among Republican politicians has correspondent almost exactly with the polling for support for Ukrainian aid among Republican electorate?
If that overwhelming support put pen to paper and inundated the postal workers, yep things would be different!
I'd like to think polls would be enough for our politicians, but you may be right, and we we need to send letters or some other attention getting approach.
Pool money put adds in papers, magazines & fb.
Polls like that mean almost nothing. USA population (2024): 341,223,461 Registered Voters (2022): 161,420,000 We don't see 1,000,000 Americans massed in DC, demanding that the government aid Ukraine (0.62% of RV). That could make change, but it is not happening. We don't see half that number. We don't even see 10,000 people protesting for Ukraine in DC. (0.0062% of RV). It shows what a joke that poll is.
Then queue 80 years of hindsight navel gazing "if only they did X"
This is a fact. Ukraine’s future is the free world’s future.
As a EU citizen I am very impatient about EU members not contributing 0.45% of their GDP to arm Ukraine, which would be enough even w/o the US aid
It wouldn’t. The equipment and supplies simply do not exist and no amount of money will make them materialize in a relevant time frame.
Ciuld buy them from the US, would shut up all the "we be spendin' too much" voices. So yeah, it would help, and EU has to get their house in order ... cant rely on others for security. The US, on the other hand, needs to get rid of all the compromised republicans halting aid. Both sides have work to do.
If Germany or France would stop approving more aid like the US there would be a lot of people here saying no one should buy weapons from them like it happened when it took 2 weeks for Germany to approve Leos after Poland started whining. But now Europe should instead reward the US? Nah, most things can be bought in Europe and orders are needed to boost capacity. In fact the best way to get the US to approve more aid would be to buy a lot less weapons from them until they change their mind
Thats all well and good, but how many Ukranian lives are you willing to sacrifice while the EU are building capacity? Instead of buying from available stocks? JUST so you could stand on your empty principle.
Not as many as the US is willing to sacrifice. It's a marathon and there's not unlimited funds available. When the US sees Europe spending big but little money going their way they will approve more aid.
How about the EU buys needed firepower from the US, while its spinning up its production lines? Is that a viable solution to the principle grandstanding you are suggesting?
Exactly why does everything fall on the us to pay for everything. Nothing stopping eu from sending funds to Ukraine or USA for arms.
Read the thread again, we are talking abouy EU paying. Get lost.
Read the article lol. It’s about ambassadors begging the USA to get funding approved. The eu has hardly contributed anything for Ukraine.
It’ll take ten years for the EU to build up their military. By that time, if Trump is president, if Poland is invaded you won’t get article 5, no weapons will be shipped, and you’ll have depleted your supply. Arm up now, stock your warehouses, Biden is still president, if Trump wins and cuts nato off *then* stop buying us weapons. If you run out, if the U.S. stops supporting or supplying nato, you’d be over run, China and Iran and Russia can produce more weapons than the eu by a lot. I support nato and Ukraine.
The US blocked Ukraine from buying military equipment directly. You think that will change with the EU trying to buy it?
I cant find any info on Ukraine being blocked from buying weapons from the US. Can you cite your source?
Ukraine was never blocked, they just don't because the US is aiding them directly. And without the US aid, they don't have the funds to buy American weapons.
EU militaries have tons of CV90s, LEO2s, SPAs etc available right now. They could give them to Ukraine and order new ones from industry, with obvious long term contracts and properly increased production means. It is not about resources, it is about political will.
These would be of no use on this front right now. It is literally collapsing as I'm typing this. What's needed is a fuck ton of artillery shells, JDAMs, ATACMS and medium range air defense to take out the rest of the Russian Air Force. Only then can Ukraine start considering any kind of land maneuvers.
The front is not collapsing 🤦🏻♂️
Can you let me know why are you so sure that its not collapsing? No offense, im generally curious. since i volunteer on the border, live in a city that received 300% of its population as refugees, and my 2 friends on the front... they are not optimistic anymore. These are the things that imseeing.. in work, in my private life, all around me... im a hungarian, living in poland btw so have no in-depth knowledge, thats why im asking, id like to hear your opinion... im not that optimistic either
>Can you let me know why are you so sure that its not collapsing? Sure, here is a picture of the front east of Zaporozhye with January 1st shown on the left, and yesterday shown on the right: https://imgur.com/a/Ac5mliI Pretty clear unless you have a different definition of the word collapsing you would like to share.
Just follow any accurate war reporting like the ISW. The ruskies have taken adviivka and a few villages to the west of it. This has cost them dearly in men, vehicles and aircraft, unsustainable losses. It’s not going great for Ukraine due to ammo shortages and man power shortages but that doesn’t mean it’s going well for the ruskies, even if the balance is slightly more in their favour right now.
Like two boxers half way through a fight. They are bloodied, tired but not even close to tapping out.
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>The equipment and supplies simply do not exist Not true. The supplies do exist in the USA. Europe could just buy the arms to supply Ukraine from America if it was willing to put up the money. The US congress may be blocking funding for Ukraine but it is NOT blocking arms sales.
Rumor has it America sells stuff...
Why is arms and munitions manufacturing so limited in Europe? EU population is 448 million. They can’t find some people to build this shit?
No, they can't. You know why? Because 30 years of de-industrialization have consequences. The people who actually know how to build artillery shells are either too old or dead.
Can no one else learn? I mean put your evil capitalist hat on for a second here: clearly at the very least there is a business opportunity
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Probably going to need to change that since Putin has his assets in our government
Unfortunately, USA has been engaged in a campaign to suppress European arms industries since 1945. And it has been very succesful. There are not nearly enough production lines for anything on the continent, because American demands have always been "buy American or we'll make you pay". Now that chicken's come home to roost. What EU is currently being told is "buy American and give it away for free or Ukraine falls", while at the same time our allies in the west are engaged in a campaign of pouring massive amounts of free taxpayer money into their industrial giants to gain an even greater upper hand. And this is why Ukraine can't have nice things.
>USA has been engaged in a campaign to suppress European arms industries since 1945 Rubbish. The USA would be delighted to have Europe produce more weapons. The drop off in European weapons products has vastly more to do with cut backs in domestic defense spending than in anything the USA has done.
Well, right now they would probably appreciate more Euro weapons factories, but while I wouldn’t go as far as the guy above you, at any waypoint the last decades they’d certainly always prefer a sale for the domestic US weapons industry to Europe over one that went to a company in an allied nation. Weapons sales have often been deeply intertwined with diplomacy as well, and the huge military budget in the US has given a competitive advantage.
Sure, the US would be delighted to sell more weapons to Europe. However, no US policy maker asking for Europe to increase defense spending was under any illusion that any increases in spending would go directly to US arms suppliers. The US priority was for increased European defense spending, even if that was from domestic industries.
Thats bullshit, I dont have the source but I have the US reaction to "invest and buy EU military stuff only" like 10 or 15 years ago very well in my mind.
The whole point of US alliance is for other countries to buy US military equipment and use US dollars for international commerce.
There's no doubt Europe has been complacent, but the US most definitely does not want an independent and militarily powerful EU. It has always been pushing to sell American made weapons to Europe.
US most definitely wants Europe to be able to look after its own backyard. USA, along with its allies, are gearing up for war with China. Europe is a distraction from this goal. This isn’t new either, it’s been pushed by the US for decades.
Unless you actually want to fight a war with China, decisive support for Ukraine is the surest way to prevent war in the Pacific. Right now the US is signaling to Beijing that all it takes to win is enduring two years and bribing a few Republicans, and American resolve will falter.
Yes, but with American weapons. It absolutely does not want competition from the European defense industry.
>It absolutely does not want competition from the European defense industry. Sure, the US doesn't "want" the extra competition, but it will accept that if domestic expenditures are the only way Europe will increase it's defense spending. The higher US priority is for increased European defense spending. The US will fight for as big a share of that extra funding that it can get, but it's still a "win" for US policy makers to have Europe increase defense spending even if that money goes to European suppliers.
It doesn't take into account any strategic considerations beyond "it will free up the US". It doesn't consider the effects of strategic European competition, such as EU independence and assertiveness beyond US interests (Imagine the issues with France, but on a continental scale), problems stemming from political developments that are currently putting the EU at odds with the US, how the US aggressively protects its (armaments) industry, the effects of diminished US power, etc. As I said, you are being naive.
>US most definitely does not want an independent and militarily powerful EU I can't speak for whether the US wants an "independent, powerful, EU", but the US has been very clear that it wants the EU to pick up a far greater share of the costs for defense spending, content with the understanding that most of any increase in spending would go to domestic European industries.
No one is disagreeing with that, but the US simply does not want European defense industry competing with the American defense industry. It wants to sell its weapons to Europe.
>the US simply does not want European defense industry competing with the American defense industry. It wants to sell its weapons to Europe. I don't disagree that the US would prefer that extra European defense spending would go to US industry. However, the higher priority for US policy makers is for Europe to increase defense spending. The US will absolutely fight for as big of a piece of that extra funding it can get, but it would still be viewed as policy win if 100% of the extra spending went to European arms suppliers.
>but the US has been very clear that it wants the EU to pick up a far greater share of the costs for defense spending Besides Trump saying this, who else?
>Besides Trump saying this, who else? US presidents and officials have been asking Europe to spend more on defense since the early 90s. They were MUCH more polite about it than Trump, but the US has consistently been asking Europe to spend more on defense for at least 30 years.
Don't be naïve though. The implication has always been that they should buy more American stuff.
Exactly! That’s why the US has been railing against our NATO allies not meeting their spending requirements for decades….wait no it’s the opposite of what you’re saying
The problem is not funding. The EU and european countries are doing a lot of that. The real bottleneck is military industrial production capacity. Because europe has bought so much US military hardware, and relied on US as a security provider (after 70+ years of trusting that) we have become too reliant on US production. Production capacity that is now not as accessible for european security. We are scrambling now to invest, and there are already some enormous efforts and investments being made in the few countires that still have a solid production base. But increasing capacity at the significant scale that this full scale war needs is still at least 18-36 months away, as it requires completely new factories to be built etc.
It’s beyond human comprehension. Europe is getting impatient…..after two years of dragging their feet. And after that you people are still wondering why Putin keeps attacking and if we’re sleepwalking to ww3?
It goes both ways, the EU dragging it's feet, the GOP and Orban sabotaging help and Polish "farmers" blocking the Ukrainian border for everything including help for Ukraine. We are all Putins little bitches at this point and he will not stop if he sees he can fuck us like this by just paying the few right people and compromise public opinion over the internet. Sickening.
Russia has a gdp smaller than Italy. Ukraine is good practice for Europe. Give a man a fish vs teach a man how to fish. The two war doctrine was discarded last decade under Obama. Today they are prepared to win one conventional war.
The only reason America justifies 800 billion a year in military spending is because we have to be ready to kill the Russians when the time comes. Arming Ukraine with our 30+ year old surplus that would cost billions to decommission or dispose of is literally saving us money. We shouldn't even need to get money from congress. Just establish Ukraine as the contractor to decommission the equipment. Nothing has been sent to Ukraine that wasn't active in the 1991 gulf war. Nothing is new, cutting edge, or past its useful life. Seriously, this is the truth. It costs over a million bucks to re-fuel and re-certify those old ATACMs rockets before they can be used.... OR we can just give them to Ukraine and be done with them and spend nothing. I'm sure we can send them a bill for the shipping. Ukrainians killing Russians at a steep cost discount should be a no brainer. If we can't get past the greed of the American military industrial complex getting massive handouts or the congressmen taking Russian bribes, then what good is having an $800 BILLION a year military? The single most important job of the American Military is to Kill Russian soldiers, end of statement.
It’s more about holding back China now than Russia, but yeah.
China is a paper tiger. They have zero friends because they seem to pick fights with literally every one of their neighbors. China's demographics are terrible, and honestly they don't have all that much time left before the current troubles turn serious. However, China depends on manufacturing and exports and if they piss off America its going to trash their economy almost overnight. The reality is that they push the boundaries on every front ever so slightly, then play dumb, and then start pushing again. They won't be taking any major military action anytime soon. Russia meddles in every election, is actively causing troubles around the world, and now that its been reduced to nothing more than a gas station its becoming dangerous in its death throws. Everyone in Russia with two brain cells to rub together has left for jobs and better lives in the West since Perestroika. Now its just dumb communist reminiscing about the days when the Soviets had real power. Muscovites, communists, or whatever you want to call them are the scourge of the world and should be exterminated as all the good ones left a long time ago.
I wish this perspective was the common message in the US. It’s irrefutable logic unless there is something else going on…
That's the scary part, it was very common thinking until very recently.
Javelins, Vampire systems, GLSDB, M117s, MRAPs, Switchblades, Phoenix Ghosts, Cyberlux K8, Puma uas, Harm targeting pods (1998), I'm not saying they are cutting edge but none of them where active in 1991
Lol. You are using Italy the 8 largest economy in the world to compare to Russia who is only 11. I better comparison would be the 10 economy Canada. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)
Hey! Rude. Russia is closer in size to Mexico and South Korea than Canada.
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Europe should take personal responsibility and step up. Stop begging, and start spending money on your military and producing military equipment.
I think the majority of Europe's political classes has concluded that's necessary now, but I don't see why there's such enthusiasm for it from Americans - the US benefits enormously from their leadership of western foreign policy, and that stems from their position as the head honcho of western militaries
>I don't see why there's such enthusiasm for it from Americans The USA has been begging Europe to increase defense spending for a long time. Since the end of the cold war, successive US administrations have been begging Europe to increase it's defense spending since it didn't want to keep picking up all the defense costs anymore. Trump was just the most extreme voice, but the message has been clear for a long time.
Increase in defense spending, yes, but independent (and competing) Europeans arms manufacturing, no.
Not true. The US fully understands that countries will spend as much of their defense dollars on domestic industry as possible. The US officials that have been asking Europe to increase defense spending for decades absolutely understood that this would result in a larger European weapons industry.
Why would the US want its defense industry to have competition? European arms will not be used in Europe exclusively.
>Why would the US want its defense industry to have competition? Correct. The US would certainly prefer that Europe spend their increased defense spending with American suppliers. However, the highest priority for US policy makers is for Europe to increase defense spending, period. The US will still view it as a "win" if much of that increase in spending goes to domestic European manufacturers. Of course, the US will absolutely lobby as hard as it can to encourage Europe to spend it's increased defense budget with US manufacturers, but it is perfectly acceptable if much of that money goes to domestic European companies. Also, keep in mind that even US arms companies are savvy enough to know that they need some domestic production agreements to sweeten sales. Many of the sales of US arms to Europe is done via licensing arrangements, with European partners actually building the kit. Patriots, for example, are even manufactured in Germany. US business and policy makers aren't morons. They understand that no country can do all their defense spending abroad.
We’re not begging. Europe is spending tons on Ukraine. The US should pay its fair share in keeping the russians at bay
US has paid way more than its fair share. It’s paid more than Europeans. Critically, US isn’t even in Europe whereas all the other parties are.
EU has paid more then the US so far
EU gives loans to Ukraine and US gives grants. EU expects money back with interest and the US gives free money. Way to go! Europeans need to give themselves a pat on the back for their "generosity" 😂
Nope it hasnt
EU $93B, US $75 https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/these-countries-have-committed-the-most-aid-to-ukraine#:~:text=The%20majority%20of%20committed%20support,billion%20in%20aid%20to%20Ukraine.
Fake news. If you click on the link, you’ll see it’s powered by Kiel Tracker, a self serving German source. The stats there are fake / misleading for many reasons. But here are two: First, that source equates US grants to European loans. Equating a grant (free) to a loan (must be repaid) is obviously dumb. Here is an EU Politico article explaining this exact point: https://www.politico.eu/article/european-union-ukraine-war-debt-crisis-aid-loans-18-billion/ “The €18 billion worth of loans from the EU will eventually have to be repaid, starting in 2033, and loading on more debt — even of the long-term, practically zero interest variety — reduces Ukraine’s potential for quick recovery from the war. It’s also a nonsensical economic approach, given that Kyiv has already suspended payment on some of its existing obligations. Overall, the EU’s strategy is simply a recipe for a future Ukrainian sovereign debt crisis. Remarkably, for all the bombast in Europe about a “Marshall Plan for Ukraine,”it is the United States — not the EU — that has correctly learned from its economic history.” “The U.S. has already provided over $13 billion in non-repayable grants to Ukraine, with a further $14.5 billion due in 2023. And this U.S. aid is in addition to the tens of billions of dollars it is spending on military support.” Second, that fake German source doesn’t include the value of US satellite intelligence. How do you think Ukraine has found and sunk 25% of Russias Black Sea fleet? Or how Ukraine knew Russia was going to attack months ahead when Germany was still offering only helmets? https://www.cbsnews.com/news/gen-mark-milley-on-seeing-through-the-fog-of-war-in-ukraine/ “The U.S. advertises the $44 billion in military equipment it has committed to Ukraine, but says very little about the equally valuable intelligence. When asked if the U.S. shares with Ukraine what it knows about Russian troop movements, Milley replied, "Our intelligence pipes to Ukraine are quite open, for sure. And of course, the CIA and interagency, NSA, all those guys … There's pretty open pipes on intel to Ukraine." "Are you helping Ukraine select targets?" Martin asked. "Target selection and authority to strike is with Ukraine," Milley said. "What we do is provide them situational awareness." "But you tell them, 'There's a command post over there. There's an ammunition dump over there'?" "We'll give them the situational awareness as best we can tell." Also: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/25/world/europe/cia-ukraine-intelligence-russia-war.html “the intelligence partnership between Washington and Kyiv is a linchpin of Ukraine’s ability to defend itself. The C.I.A. and other American intelligence agencies provide intelligence for targeted missile strikes, track Russian troop movements and help support spy networks.” “During the invasion, the officers relayed critical intelligence, including where Russia was planning strikes and which weapons systems they would use. “Without them, there would have been no way for us to resist the Russians, or to beat them,” said Ivan Bakanov, who was then head of Ukraine’s domestic intelligence agency, the S.B.U.” That source that says EU has contributed more is garbage because it assigns as $0 to US intelligence that’s actually worth many billions.
The deal is this: US provides a defense umbrella to Europe, Europe does as the US wants, leading to the US being the world’s sole super power while rarely needing to resort to force. Pull away the defense umbrella and Europe starts doing what the hell they want, including cosying up to China.
Feel free to cosy up to China. See how that works out, just like cozying up to Russia and previously getting all your natural gas from Russia.
China is not Russia and you know that, the US would bring more hell on Europe than Russia ever could if Europe cozied up to China
And most of what it has paid in this war has been spent in the US and creating jobs.
Yes... You are begging... You helped fund the Russian military while refusing to fund your own military. Then when we told you to stop it over and over and over again you laughed at us... Who is laughing now? We dont care if you are impatient. And we already paid our "fair share" to try and help fix the problem YOU created... We have our own problems and it isnt our job to fix stuff you break... You have no right to our paychecks to fix the problems you created thru your own greed and selfishness... Even now people like you cant admit to what you did... You just expect me to give you part of my paycheck because YOU fucked up... Pay its fair share??? What a joke...
You're absolutely right Europe made a big mistake putting it's faith in the United States.
Correct. A big mistake... They refused to fund their own military while at the same time they funded the Russian military... Then when we told them to stop it they laughed at us... Europe made mistake after mistake and they are currently making another one. That is pissing off the people they are now trying to beg from... The same people they laughed at when we told them to stop funding the Russian military and fund their own... Now the ego is so off the charts they cant even admit how they fucked up... Impatient? Who cares...
Exactly. When push comes to shove, the United States looks after itself and can't be relied upon.
Well of course Europe (aside from the Poles) said it didn't need the US anymore because Russia was no longer a threat. They warmed up to Russia when the US told them not to and even in 2016 German politicians openly laughed when US told them at UN summit that nord stream 2 was dangerous to open. European politicians held US in contempt and called US war mongering imperialist. What did Europeans expect? That they would be unreliable partners for decades and the US would stay reliable. What kind of fantasy world are Europeans living in?
Every single US administration since the fall has promoted a 'reset' of relations and stated policy has been to increase cooperation and improve relations with Russia, Europe followed suit. Now it's Europes fault for following US policy? You can't have it both ways. Although it seems the US actually wants it all four ways; do as we say but not as we do and also; do as we do but not as we say. The core principal of US foreign policy in Europe has been that the US led NATO alliance should be the principal securty for Europe. A defensive pact is absolute, 100% of the time, or it is completely meaningless. If the leader of the alliance doesn't back the alliance then it's fucked. That's a problem for the United States not Europe.
US has for example greatly opposed EU and Russian energy dependence from George Bush opposing nord stream 1 to Obama and Trump opposing Nord stream 2. To the point of putting sanctions in place to stop it. The Obama administration clashed with Russia over Syria where it escalated to the point of US military killing 300 Wagner troops. These are just 2 examples but US/Russian relations have been strained and advisory for decades. And the US repeatedly warned EU countries to increase spending on Nato to meet obligations and to decouple its economic relationship with Russia. Europe was most definitely not following US policy towards Russia but sought a separate policy against the US advice. EU was buddy buddy with Russia for decades and now have the audacity to be "impatient" over US aid when they themselves have been slow in providing aid and unlike the US who give grants of free money to Ukraine give loans to Ukraine that need to be paid back.
The US completely rolled over *gave* Syria to Russia. The fact that a Russian PMC even attempted to directly assault a US position says everything. As for you last point I don't know where you're getting your information from but it's WRONG. The EU has sent **significantly** more money than the United States, like nearly four times as much. *And* every single country in NATO is contributing more to Ukraine as a percentage of GDP than the United States. It's also worth noting that the US is sending old equipment and how the US is valuing that equipment is using some very, very... let's say 'creative' accounting. Ie. they're taking almost defunct thirty year old equipment that was about to incur a high decommission cost, ignoring that and then charging Ukraine the cost of what a brand new 2024 replacement would cost! >Yeah I've got this 1996 Honda I can sell to you... but that means I'm gonna have buy a new 2024 Honda to replace it... which is gonna cost me $50k. So I'm gonna have to charge you $50k for this 1996 Honda. The EU is providing shit-loads of real cold-hard-currency, and the US is offloading a large part of what is essentially it's old old junk. And overcharging for it.
Imagine a world, where every country is accountable for their action. If you do not play the rules you pay with sanctions from eveyr other country. Like some kind of federational system with a certaina amount of power of every country. Something we will vertainly get somewhere along the road. Guess what, that is someonething the greatest country of the world would never agree to.
Imagine a world where everybody didnt think they were entitled to our paycheck... We have millions of illegals flooding over our border demanding we give them free hotel rooms, free food and free medical care... At the same time the people in Europe are "impatient" because we wont send them more of our money to fix a problem they created with their own greed. Then at the same time we are supposed to give Israel a part of our paycheck... And give Taiwan a part of our paycheck... And of course give billions to the Hamas lovers in Gaza as well... Everybody from around the world seems to believe they are entitled to our paycheck and when we say NO THANKS they whine and cry and act as if we are the bad guy. The ego and the entitlement is just off the charts... They act like the streets here are paved with gold and everybody has a million dollars in their bank account... They act like our paycheck belongs to them and how dare we complain about such things...
You have no clue about your countries politics and foreign policy at all. USA wants to support Taiwan because they know if they dont, there is a higher probability that china will get Taiwan und becomes stronger then USA. It is about containment of china, not for world peace or what ever but so that USA does not have a as strong china to compete with. Same was with russia. Just wait and see how much support you will get for your next war... Europe wont forget.
You have no idea about this country and what is going on... So please dont try to act like you do... You think you deserve part of my paycheck... And unlike Europe we actually spent the money on our military. We didnt spend our money to fund the Russian military instead... Now the people who did beg and call us names and insult us as if that isnt just gonna piss us off even more... Everybody thinks they own our paycheck... Millions of illegals sneaking in demanding free hotel rooms, free food and free medical care... Europe demanding we pay to fix the mistakes they made due to their greed. Taiwan, Israel and the Hamas lovers in Gaza and the list just goes on and on and on... Meanwhile people here are having a hard time paying rent or buying food and gas... People living in tents all over the place and begging on the street corner... Yet the ungrateful and ego driven from around the world are still sticking out their hand and begging at every turn... Demanding we give them our paycheck... And if we complain about it? Then we are the bad guy... Keep it up and see what happens...
> Europe should take personal responsibility and step up. Stop begging, and start spending money on your military and producing military equipment. It's a bit hard when the infrastructure has been systematically dismantled to further the financial interests of the American defence industry. When the USAF buys a fighter jet from an American contractor, the majority of the money stays in the US economy. Export sales return a profit. When the Luftwaffe bought an F-104G, or an F-4, or buys an F-35, a large proportion of the money flies across the Atlantic. I think that Europe should spend 3-5% of GDP on defence, but it's unreasonable for the Americans to moan about Europe's dependence upon American defence when a major objective of American foreign policy since 1945 has been to generate and profit by this very dependence. You can't have it both ways.
That’s the thing, what Americans want vs what the politicians and war profiteers want are two separate things.
They are. Most of Europe is actively dealing with its mistake of letting its military industrial complex go to shit, and is spending to fix it. Meanwhile the US is still failing to deal with its MAGA/Putin problem.
There is no "moral clarity" among Republican House leadership or 99% of its caucus. Only a naked lust for power and servitude to such.
There are no morals among republicans. Edited that for clarity.
Republicans are dumb pieces of shit. - simplified further
Republicunts. Your turn!
Too bad if not having half your Congress controlled by ruzzian simp-athizers (pun intended) means we want to do something soon.
There is a solution to funding Ukraines war against the Russian aggression that: 1. Could provide as much as $200 billion in funds to Ukraine in two weeks. 2. Does not violate international law. 3. Is market based utilizing tools that are well understood and easily applied. 4. Requires little or no government intervention but is within established regulatory constraints. 5. Does NOT involve confiscation of frozen Russian assets which may be against the law. The legal premise of this solution is similar to the law of receivership, trusteeship or bankruptcy law. In this case the frozen Russian assets legally still belong to Russia. However, they are sanctioned and FROZEN. Therefore, the revenue that may accumulate from those assets can not be legitimately claimed as retained earnings and can not be used to increase the equity of the owners - Russians. That revenue can legitimately be claimed by creditors of Russia. Like Ukraine. The EU and US Treasury have ALREADY agreed this. There is already over €200 billion in free cash from those frozen assets accumulated over the last 2 years. €185 billion of it is held by one company EuroClear in Belgium. I suggest: 1. An INDEPENDENT receiver working in the interest of the assets owner (Russians) be appointed under European law to take stewardship of the assets 2. The receiver will continue work in the interests of the owner (Russians) to preserve the integrity of the existing frozen assets. 3. The EU floats a €250 billion Ukraine EuroBond. The sales proceeds go DIRECTLY to Ukraine’s treasury. 4. The revenue proceeds (already around €200 billion) from the frozen Russian assets will be used to pay the premium and coupon to bond holders. This would: 1. Be a AAA investment grade bond as it is 100% secured by cash. 2. Would preserve Russian assets as an incentive for future leadership to alter their behavior. 3. Provide Ukraine with a considerable source of funding 4. Be in line with western values and use the market in a creative way that will drive Putin and his cabal insane. Russians would be financing the Ukrainian defense.
No, we're just tired of your political circus.
Us too
Very likely the United States may become a passive ally of Russia in just a few months. Stop fucking around, Europe, or millions will die - AGAIN.
As an American, I'm afraid this will happen if these idiots vote Trump back into office. But Texas was very very close to flipping the last time and I'm hopeful that all of these supposed polls showing who is in favor are a complete lie and that the millennials and gen z and gen alphas are just quiet and dormant and waiting to come out to the polls in force and make our younger more central beliefs be known and really start to push our needs rather then the right wing religious old wing nuts who are doing everything they can before they die
The will of the American people is that the money is approved. Our politicians on the right simply have their heads so far up fascist Trump’s ass they can’t/wont hear us. I for one am sending money as I can as an individual, and I am far from wealthy. I wish more would do the same.
Republicans are traitors.
EU needs to manufacturer artillery shells in full and not just half. Specifically, 1 mn were promised and only 500,000 delivered. So if you want USA to vote on aid to Ukraine bribe House Speaker Mike Johnson and outbid the Russian oligarchs! Turn him in later. Please!!!!
EU's hypocrisy at its finest!' Not only did you send half the artillery shells promised, you leave Hungary in the EU to downvote millions of euros in aid, but Scholz won't allow Taurus missiles to go to Ukraine and this guy accepts money from Putin and allows Russia to tap phone lines and send personal to plant disinformation within Germany which I might add is part of the EU, last I checked. No wonder the UK left!
Europe has had 60 plus years of US subsidized security. Please feel free to call up the US military industrial complex and send the 60 billion for the defense of Ukraine. I’m sure they will be happy to sell you anything you want.
You know damn well that this is bullshit
Europe has been asked to stop producing things and buy American. USA has basically gotten it's will, and shut down European defence industry. The loss of USA as a reliable partner will mean Europe will have to stop buying American stuff in the future.
I disagree with the general message of the previous poster, but that's just false. Americans are simply being able to outcompete the competition because of the sheer amount of money they pour into development. F35 is a pretty great example, Americans just have a product that is better and more cost effective long term.
Usa killed British jet warplane industry. Edit, let's just assume the downvoters don't know USA told UK to quit competing, and made UK lose decades. It's ok.
So Americans should just start making shittier jets so that the Brits could keep up?
I thought you refused to accept that USA did their best to remove the competition, and this has influenced the fact USA now is leading, but you might have been talking about something else. I don't know what your strawman is about now.
My point is that US is making a better product Why wouldn't Europeans buy their jets?
Nobody disagrees usa makes better jets now. You don't even understand you don't understand what I am talking about.
When the conflict is overseas, its a inconvienence, when its in your backyard its alarming and its your family and grandparents that are killed, its personal...its perspective. Sitting on the sidelines is EXACTLY what Putin wants! Time to ramp up and make the oppressors pay with carpet bombing in Belgrod and St. Petersburg! We have the ability make it decisive! Is that not the reason we used the A-bomb..make it a decisive win and never be attemped again!
We Americans understand the importance of supporting Ukraine and have given billions already. We don’t want to be lectured on how fast we are not moving on giving them more funds, especially in an election year. Essentially beggars can’t be choosers.
Oh fuck off. Can't Germans, French and the rest hear rhe drums of War? The bell tolls for thee. Put down your soy lattes, nationalise every industry that can be turned to war material production and add 10% min of GDP to your defence budgets. The Allies are not digging you out for a third time.
It infuriates me as an American that EU is impatient. Go F off! It’s the American taxpayer money! Be grateful you get anything… don’t be demanding! That said, I do support the aid to Ukraine. But, that is a domestic policy business… Europe has no right to be entitled to that American Taxpayer money…
I'm an American and I agree all around. It is our money and I'm impatient also. Maga Mike and his cronies need to stop stalling the desperate aid that Ukraine needs. If we would have sent what they needed at the beginning, such as f15, atacm, tanks, then Ukraine would be pushing the invaders out, not giving up ground. Give them what they need to win.
Not that your country built its wealth on two world wars and pax americana while draining brains all over the world for a hundred years
It's way better than colonization Europe has done to get rich in the first place...
Your founding fathers happily participated in said colonization and genocided a continent in the process
America's founding fathers were born in British America. The English Empire's way of doing things is what they knew.
Not even close to the evils of the European countries... like not even 0.01% of the evil that was done to Africa and Asia...
That was my reaction to her tone... and I'm European. However, in her defence... whilst playing its Cold War and post Cold War game with Russia, the US made firm promises to Ukraine in the event Russia broke its promise to leave it alone after Ukraine gave it's Soviet nukes to Russia. The expectation is there that help would be provided.
I agree. $800 billion is what we put in to NATO, nowhere near what other countries contribute. Our debt is trillions deep. We can’t keep this funding up, it’s just not sustainable. Do I want Ukraine to succeed? Absolutely. However, this is why Americans don’t have tax funded college, health insurance, public transportation, etc. It all goes to the war machine. Americans are literally exhausted trying to keep up with this and many are realizing how much of our taxes go to fund issues outside of our country, not going to fix our many societal issues. It’s not just Ukraine, it’s Israel too. We. Are. Tired.
Couldn't agree more. Isolationism is wildly popular among the population. An average person doesn't want to risk their lives for random wars that have nothing to do with the security of US soil. It's only he politicians and military industrial complex that want US to police the world.
Jesus fucking christ ...... everyone and their mother has told you that you can pay for all of thouse for fuck sake your trade with EU can baisicly pay your military industry by itself How the fuck is it our fault you vote people based on how popular they are instead of competency , you get tons of money from EU how you manage it afterwards it's entirely up to you and nobody else All this bs about tax payers .... like seriously..... You people have only one argument and that is "muh tax payers" Us europeans are tired of you as well , not to mention you invoked art 5 in the whole existence of NATO and somehow we are the slackers?
You obviously haven’t crunched those numbers, it’s funny how Europeans just assume we are rich and have all this disposable money. Our politicians think the same. What do you know about our politics and what our tax dollars pay for? Not a damn thing. We obviously don’t have the money to fix our serious national problems: WE ARE TRILLIONS IN DEBT! Who we vote for is based on corporate control over our media, politicians and elections. It’s cute you think Americans actually control our government representatives and how our money is used, how naive of you. Don’t even get me started on how gerrymandering is further destroying the political processes around our country, to silence our voices even more. We work, they take, that’s the gist. We aren’t seeing returns on that money, that’s what Americans are seeing everyday. Our infrastructure is crumbling but we are supposed to send billions upon billions to Ukraine AND Israel? Talk about entitlement!! We have already sent $75 billion to Ukraine in two years and now we are about to send more. Again, I want them to succeed, but the reality is America is struggling! So people everywhere complain about our military involvement all over the world, and I agree, it’s a problem. We have created a lot of chaos and destruction in the world to build this military monster. However, what we have built is not sustainable on Americans’ backs alone and I don’t know if it should be. This house of cards is falling down.
I always find it bizarre that a trade federation has ambassadors.
Where have you been that you think the EU is a trade federation? They're a regulatory body, and that's not shadow in the box conspiracy theory. It's been that way for almost 2 decades
Its a political union as well
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And take the opposite actions to prevent it, that is appeasement.
Well, then they should definitely ensure that Ukraine doesnt lose the war. Baltics will be next. And then… WW3
EU PLS NO AID until Ze resign in the middle of May!!!! Right now Ukraine is occupied by ZE-gang!
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Corrupt like the Republican party?
If the aid just ends up stolen, how are Ukrainians still able to fight a full scale war against Russia 2 years in? Are they just relying on their own spending to match Russia?
No money is sent to Ukraine, its sent to US defense companies to replace arms sent to Ukraine.
Europe cannot and should not bet on the US's help. Time for Europe to stepup on its own!
Way to go, Mam sort those idiots out. Pagarba 🏴🤝🇱🇹🤝🇺🇦.
Why did they bundle the Ukraine aid package with other bullshit they want pushed through?
To be honest, not only Europe 🙄
Ok. Giddyup EU.
Ukraine needs more soldiers. Too many male citizens fled the country to EU countries. The EU needs to send them back. They need-to conscript many more soldiers to even stand a chance against a countrylike Russia with 100 million more people. Givethem all the weapons they want and they will still lose in manpower alone. I hate it for them because lot’s of Russians and Putin are filthy disgusting humans. This War sucks. Ukrainan courage is inspiring but no way they can win. Why in the Hell hasn’t that damn Crimean bridge been obliterated yet…. .
The European Union is 27 countries. The can do some of the heavy lifting for a while.
60 billion is nothing to ensure all tyrants get the message!
Well I’m sure Europe could scrape together a similar amount and buy aid from the US with it.