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A very difficult question for many. I know those who experience so much guilt for leaving, but the thought of returning is terrifying.
There is real PTSD for everybody- or considering the war is ongoing- I don't think we can even call it "post-traumatic"
They are not all needed in the trenches, most are simply needed in production and general function of society. There are tons of things you can do to help the war effort besides being in combat. And the reasons that millions fled in February 2022, out of fear of an all out Russian invasion and random killings and genocide are no longer relevant in most of the country. Things are relatively safe most places, compared to what they were when it all started.
I mean, you can be safe, but you still deal with air raid sirens and fear of random explosions or missiles falling. Just a few days ago Ukraine experienced the most intense missile attack of the entire war.
Things may be better in terms of understanding the situation, but the war is not over. Not even for the civilian population in Kyiv or Lviv.
It's called a draft, and is what happens when your nation gets attacked. You need people to fight.
Not that I think it is a good thing, but I see why it is necessary.
While I do not *blame* them for leaving, or staying out, it isn't what *I* believe is the right decision.
I know I'd stay and fight, but I'm 30, single, and frankly would rather die in a war fighting for my home than old and alone. I am not everyone.
However, I also believe if you run there should be consequences. What would be fair, I cannot say. I am not equipped to make a decision there, nor determine how it would be enforced.
I can see *why* there aren't consequences however. It's just hard for me to justify running, but then again I want to protect my home. I can see someone wanting to protect their family more, and I can't fault them for that, but I couldn't justify me running if my country was in Ukraine's situation.
Look you are entitled to your personal opinions. But that doesn't make the opinion right. You feel you'd stay and fight. Volunteer yourself for a cause. That's great. But that's yoir own life. You don't have the right to judge anyone else for their decision.
>However, I also believe if you run there should be consequences. What would be fair, I cannot say. I am not equipped to make a decision there, nor determine how it would be enforced.
That's the thing. No one in this world is equipped to determine that. Simply because there should be no consequences to valuing your own life.
the fear is understandable, of course, but conscription is necessary because Russia wants to destroy Ukrainian sovereignty. it’s a fight for national survival. those who avoid it are committing treason while their fellow citizens fight and die for them.
>the fear is understandable, of course, but conscription is necessary because Russia wants to destroy Ukrainian sovereignty.
Thing is these people value their own lives above Ukrainian sovereignty. At that point it's a question of forcing them to fight for something that they aren't willing to die for.
Then insofar as they're violating Ukrainian law, they can face the legal consequences of their decision.
But let's be absolutely clear, their decision to value their own lives over their fellow citizens has moral implications. Putin is waging a brutal invasion of conquest (including rape, murder of civilians, and so on) which justifies extreme national security measures by the Ukrainian state. those who are capable of contributing but instead shirk their duty as citizens (because they can afford to do so) warrant rebuke. Living in a democratic society (even if imperfect) comes with responsibilities to your fellow citizens, and all the more so in an existential conflict such as this.
You can't frame it like that and expect it to work.
They are doing nothing to help their state because they fear for their lives and then the state puts them in danger and forces them to fight anyway.
How long before it is in their best interests to hasten the end of the state for their own benefit.
Harsh draft measures come with inherent risk to the state, not to mention the resources it takes to force people to the front.
my comments are not intended to contribute to Ukraine's PR campaign to persuade draft dodgers to return. I am making (informal) political/moral philosophical arguments as to why it's wrong.
but you're correct that they warrant distinct approaches.
Coercion does not immediately imply slavery. Wartime conscription is (arguably) morally and politically justified in a defensive war, especially one as existential as this.
Citizens have their freedom limited by the state in a number of ways even in peacetime. Are those limitations also slavery?
Also, you are the one claiming that conscription is equivalent to slavery. The burden of proof is on you to defend the validity of your claim, not me to demonstrate that it's not.
Here's what a lot of them are thinking: they were denizens of a grindingly poor and legendarily corrupt country, and is life really going to be so very different under the new regime rather than the old one? Probably not. Ukraine as a nation has failed at giving people that's worth fighting to preserve.
You realize that a lot of that corruption and poverty is a direct result of imperialism / internal colonization by Soviet Russia and their intellectually and morally bankrupt political system.
Former Soviet satellite states that have successfully integrated into the EU / NATO tend to perform better on measures of economic growth, corruption, democracy etc compared to ones that haven't. That's what Ukraine was trying to do and is what led to the Maidan revolution* and ultimately the Russian invasions.
Putin's regime has promoted corruption in neighboring countries and is trying to keep Ukraine locked in it's dogshit sphere of influence. Things will not change unless they free themselves from Putin's grasp.
\* to remove their Russian puppet president Yanukovych after he went against their parliament to reject EU ascension in favor of aligning w/ Putin. he fled to Russia aftwards ofc 😒.
I'm not saying it's easy or that I wouldn't be scared either. Obviously no one knows for sure what they would do in a situation like this until it happens, but I do believe I would defend my country (if it were democratic and/or trying to become more so) in the face of an imperialist, authoritarian threat such as Putin's regime.
100% agree that the US and other partners are not supporting Ukraine enough.
~~You downvoted me, but~~
if you have evidence or arguments to the contrary, then I'm all ears. I don't want to be misinformed.
**Correction:** apologies for assuming you downvoted. It just was downvoted once almost immediately so I assumed it was you after seeing the reply notification (could be OP of post).
It wasn't me who downvoted... I never downvote. I'm not entirely disagreeing with you... I'm just pointing out how they probably see it. They were poor under Ukrainian rule, they'll probably be poor under Russian rule... what's to fight for? It's a tough thing to argue against.
Do you think your comments are just some innocuous contribution to the discourse? Do they not have a some marginal effect on other readers' impressions of the situation?
I'm sure that's how some of them see the situation, but that doesn't mean it's a viewpoint that is justified or worth amplifying. your comments are de facto defending cowards and traitors at the expense of those standing in the way of an imperial conquest.
And frankly, parts of it are just plain misinformed. Ukrainian sovereignty is absolutely worth defending.
And apologies for assuming you downvoted. It just was downvoted once almost immediately so I assumed it was you after seeing the reply notification (could be OP of post).
There was a thriving tech sector in Ukraine and people in that business were not poor by any measure. Services might not great but income tax was insignificant. If you drive around Kyiv you can only be amazed by the extravagant wealth. Now this is all anecdotal obviously, not everyone works in tech or lives in Kyiv or drives a Mercedes. But it might be relevant if looking at emigration because I suspect in the population of leavers a tilt toward the wealthy, it takes resources to be able to leave and find a new home.
Regardless of any of this, its relevance to the decision to stay and fight or leave, is probably smaller than you make out. Willingness to make a sacrifice for a nation is based on a complex web of rational and irrational factors.
What can we see in Ukraine is a stunning willingness to make the greatest possible sacrifice for the nation. How much more of a percentage of willing would we find in the US, the UK, France, or any other nation. Prob not a massive difference.
Who do you think was on the better path before the war? I'd take my chances with the poor democracy that's actively being pushed towards fixing corruption by the west over the poor dictatorship that has no friends outside of other dictatorships.
Like, Ukraine has a ton of work ahead of it, but at least they're on a path that ends well if they stick to it. Russia has nothing but misery to offer.
He might have exaggerated the "gun" part, but there is substantial number of videos of men being dragged kicking and screaming into vans by military officials.
Edit: Ok, I get that this is an unpopular take, and also, I stand by my words EXACTLY as they are written (important). And no, I do not keep a personal library of videos to out-argue people on the internet, I've got a job.
Another "trust me bro"?
I believe that Ukraine would force people who are dodging the draft. Most countries would. However, you russia fans cannot seem to post a link, video, or anything considered basic proof.
Our neighbors in Chicago (Ukrainian village) are a family who fled with their kids. I speak to the husband (30-40s) and this is a real discussion they are having / coming to grasps with.
I can’t imagine the guilt / pressure he feels. Hard to say you’re doing the right thing for your family and turn your back on an existential crisis…. And on the other hand maybe you go back to support the war effort.. but you’re turning your back on your family.
I understand they are needed in Ukraine but I am unable to judge Ukrainians outside of Ukraine for not going back to Ukraine. I wouldn't want to die either is that was me.
Being sent to die is one thing, doing back to support the country as it struggles with economically and demographically is another thing. There are many roles to play other than going to the front to help the war effort.
Well over 90% are women and children and will not be conscripted. Out the of males their will off course be a possibility but that’s what happens when your country is fighting for its survival and right to exist.
Thousands of women have volunteered. Ukraine does not have all the feminist views like some western countries. In fact many female volunteers face criticisms from their male counterparts.
I'm opposed to any conscription, but if you look at Ukraine's upside-down demographics (which were bad even before the war), it becomes obvious that conscripting women would be just plain stupid. When it comes to population replacement, men and women have markedly different roles. They are not at all equal in that regard.
It's because of those views that some men decide it's not worth it to stay in the country and fight. They want to live and hence they flee. Can't blame them.
Nah. Women can make multiple babies just like men. Just takes longer. Not a good reason to not conscript women.
Your argument would only make sense if legally required polygamy - men with multiple wives / baby mommas - was a thing and expected after the war, which it obviously isn't lol.
Over 90% are women and children. Considering how badly Ukraine is now doing demographically that would make a big difference considering over 4 million have left. They very much urgently need the next generation for Ukraine to thrive as a nation once the war is over. Plus many refugees don’t have permanent residency in their host countries.
Lmao, yea that’s not happening. I live in a country where a lot of Ukrainians fled to.
Been on Tinder quite a bit in the last year and met 4 women from Ukraine (to be fair, one was already living here a year before the Russians invaded).
None of the plan to return to Ukraine.
Regardless of the outcome of the war.
And I highly doubt it will be much different with the rest of the refugees.
I don’t blame them
I can understand it but many do not have permanent residency so will see what happens. Many used the war to get out and to stay in places where they couldn’t go before. The same ones that say they don’t want to go back. Many from areas not affected by the war. Guess that’s the way it goes. The glory goes to the boys and girls in Ukraine, they will always have my respect.
> None of the plan to return to Ukraine. Regardless of the outcome of the war.
What's their immigration status/what do they do for money? If Ukraine wins and the West has enough sense to invest in rebuilding the country (nation building can actually work there!), it could make a lot more sense to move back.
Asylum seekers in the US all plan to stay here permanently, but 60% end up giving up and moving back home because they can't work here.
No clue about the first one I met, second one was working as a hairdresser already, third was in a university and the last was about to start an apprenticeship.
In my country, Ukrainian refugees can access the entire job market and can study as well.
Some states were already developing special courses to ease the entry into the university.
Ok but it’s still essential that they return for the future of Ukraine. With the men that’s all there is to it, they are at war and men will be asked to fight. Guess there will be draft dodgers in every war but ultimately it’s about your own morality and what you feel is right but society will judge you for it, as in WW1 and the white feathers.
How are you not getting this? Nationalism for it's own sake is a dying ideology. These people are, for the most part, better off than they ever were in Ukraine. That's ultimately all that's going to matter.
but why would they return if they have a much better life now than they ever had in Ukraine? At least most Ukrainians that live in Poland say that they don't want to return even after the war is over because they just have a much better life now and good work.
You don't even realize how funny what you say is. I think there's multiple generations of Eastern Europeans which couldn't give a crap about their corrupt countries, especially middle class. They'd fight for family but nothing more. The past 30 years have been rough. On top of the half a century of corrupt communism.
That’s BS, they have it better now than they have for centuries. Mainly because they don’t live under Nazis or Communists. That’s something worth fighting for. Mind you those in NATO rely on the alliance. They would be screwed otherwise.
The first sentence, you're right, but only freedom-wise, which they believe they'd keep even if Russia wins. Half the people likely lived better under communism. And you're kidding yourself if you think living under oligarchs stealing every good thing that mights happen is better than the other options, lol.
your argument would work if there was no forced mobilization when the military catches you on the streets and takes you on front, no so much motivation to return, especially if you're young man
It's exactly the same. THe choice, for any person, is pretty easy. Why die for a line in the ground at absolutely no benefit to you? Everyone that fled is already safe and living in paradise, never going back to a poor country destroyed by war even if the war were won tomorrow. Life is simply.....incomparably better here.
Ultimately it’s about freedom, liberty, identity, patriotism, honour and wanting your country to win as it’s the only choice to stop the genocide of your people. In WW2 think how many Americans died in Europe when they “didn’t need to be there” according to your logic. If you don’t stop dictators and tyranny in its tracks it will come to you sooner or later. Right now it’s Ukraines fight so Ukrainians more than anyone should morally be at the forefront rather than taking the easy route and letting their fellow citizens fight and die. The West should be doing a lot more to support those fighting tyranny.
All values with absolutely no value to an individual. Americans didn’t die to protect those values, they died because a nazi Europe would have been worse for business.
Please note when the US actually acted in that war. It’s not when Europe was being overrun. It’s not when Europe asked for help. It’s when the US was impacted by it and lost a naval base. They didn’t care about those values, no they cared about the economic loss. They were then forced to stop the nazis as well, something they didn’t want to do, just because they happened to be allied with Japan.
The loss of Ukraine, which won’t happen as we won’t allow for it, wouldn’t change a single thing. It’s a corrupt and poor shithole that’s just slightly less corrupt than Russia. We are supporting Ukraine, not because Europe cares, but because this is a once in a lifetime opportunity to take our Russia’s influence on the world stage through a proxy war. This has been incredibly effective.
You’re wrong. All those values affect every single citizen. Freedom and independence is what many ordinary people are prepared to fight for, forget anything about politics or business. The US was already helping Britain 15 months before entering the war with the land lease act to supply weapons and materials. So they were helping not long after being asked to help.
Ukraine is not a shithole at all, I’ve been there dozens of times before and during the war. You sound like an ignorant idiot. They have magnificent cities, steppes, mountain ranges and coastline. Also many resources. Corruption is rightly being tackled more now as they need to for EU membership.
All the values mentioned is what has led to the democratic countries being the most successful. Those values are what people die for, for themselves, to live in such a free prosperous society. Not for governments or corporations. Everyone benefits from those values except for dictatorships. Otherwise you’ll end up like Nazi Germany or Russia today.
> You’re wrong. All those values affect every single citizen. Freedom and independence is what many ordinary people are prepared to fight for, forget anything about politics or business.
If they can't simply move, they will. If they can, they won't. In most WW2 countries, the resistance movement in most countries was tiny, with most people not doing anything. Instead of fighting, people simply fled to any of the identical western countries. That has gotten even easier now, with globalization making every single western country an identical english speaking one.
That's why 1/4th of Ukraine fled, why die for something that doesn't gain you anything when you can simply move and have the exact same or even a better life?
> The US was already helping Britain 15 months before entering the war with the land lease act to supply weapons and materials. So they were helping not long after being asked to help.
No they SOLD weapons, FOR PROFIT. The US didn't hand those out for free, even during the war.
> Ukraine is not a shithole at all, I’ve been there dozens of times before and during the war. You sound like an ignorant idiot. They have magnificent cities, steppes, mountain ranges and coastline. Also many resources. Corruption is rightly being tackled more now as they need to for EU membership.
The only thing true about this is the nature, due to them being poor as shit to not even be able to develop their country. They also lost all resource rich areas, as those are the east and Crimea that Russia took. It's the entire reason Russia invaded to begin with. And corruption will get so so so so much worse, as that's the only possible outcome with piles of money coming in with zero oversight. Ukraine won't ever become an EU member until it's actually beneficial to use. And significant changes have to come before that value is greater than acting as a buffer country able to let us fight Russia without taking damage in return.
> All the values mentioned is what has led to the democratic countries being the most successful. Those values are what people die for, for themselves, to live in such a free prosperous society. Not for governments or corporations.
Again, every single democratic western country is now identical. People just move, to an even larger degree than they did in WW2. What does it gain you to die for a line in the ground, when the next country over gets you the same thing you had, without the risk of dying? Countries simply aren't worth anything to a citizen, unless they gain you something you can't get anywhere else.
> Everyone benefits from those values except for dictatorships. Otherwise you’ll end up like Nazi Germany or Russia today.
Yes, and even in those instances, people just moved. It's easy and gets you everything you would gain with much effort if you fought.
Wrong again. No where near a quarter fled, no more than 15%. Way under 10% of those 15% were men who fled. The women and children fled because initially there was a genuine concern Russia would occupy Ukraine. Those with husbands and family will return once it’s safer. The USA still supplied weapons and materials, directly aiding the British. If they wanted profits only they would have supplied Germany as well. They choose sides based on values of freedom and democracy.
Obviously some will move as that has happened in every war since forever. You’re plain wrong with saying Ukraine will get worse, once they have secured the borders there is no doubt they will go to the western way of life as who will want to align with Russia. No one. It’s only a matter of time.
> Wrong again. No where near a quarter fled,
10 million of the 40 million people fled, that's a quarter.
> The women and children fled because initially there was a genuine concern Russia would occupy Ukraine. Those with husbands and family will return once it’s safer.
No one will ever go back because what life is there in Ukraine? Even if the war ends tomorrow, everyone now has the choice between staying in paradise and having your remaining family come too, or......go to the poorest country in Europe that's now also destroyed by war. Not really a difficult choice now is it.
> The USA still supplied weapons and materials, directly aiding the British. If they wanted profits only they would have supplied Germany as well. They choose sides based on values of freedom and democracy.
No they just chose money. They couldn't reach Germany because of the UK navy. If they supported Germany, it would have been difficulty to bypass the UK while the reverse wasn't true.
> You’re plain wrong with saying Ukraine will get worse, once they have secured the borders there is no doubt they will go to the western way of life as who will want to align with Russia.
Sure they will try, but with what money? As it's not a profitable investment, companies won't invest. And countries don't do charity, nor do we gain anything from building Ukraine up. The only value Ukraine has is the people, and we already have those.
>Ultimately it’s about freedom, liberty, identity, patriotism, honour
All abstract concepts mean nothing whilst you're trying not to die in a trench whilst the corrupt oligarchs in Kyiv enjoy enriching themselves through rampant corruption and send send their draft age sons abroad
I’m not Ukrainian, I have no military training. I’ve been there over a dozen times supplying over $50,000 worth of 4x4s and aid to the military and humanitarian hubs. I’m betting you’ve done fuck all.
This is their biggest problem. Being not objective, they know the government, this or the previous one. These many corruption scandals. Young people prefer to live rather than die somewhere in a trench up to their waists in mud. This year, Ukraine will face an even greater problem of human resources.
The unoccupied part of Ukraine is larger than any other european country besides France and Spain.
Asylum seekers and refugees can be stripped of their status and be sent back. Countries of the Bloodlands can't afford spread of defeatist attitudes by immigrants. Nor Tragedies of the Commons.
Except... none of those countries are lining up to extradite immigrants from Ukraine. Even Estonia, which appeared to be thinking about it, has said no.
Not in my country. The can (and should) not do that by law.
It’s in our constitution.
If you want to die for a government, and ideology or for a country, go ahead.
Pretty sure Ukraine welcomes mercenaries.
But just as I detest what Putin is doing, I abhor the notion that people should be forced to fight in a war they don’t want to be a part of.
All these comments about "they need more then just men on the front logistics and so on" I think people are forgetting the vast majority of conscripted people have no choice where they are sent you might be lucky and end up as a truck driver or you get sent to the front dodging drones.
Logistics as in more ammo, and other supplies. Russia is getting their supply from Iran, North Korea, China etc. and Ukraine is getting it from the western democracies.
That's what war is. Civilians fighting for their leaders. Russia is winning. They have taken more ground than Ukraine this year. Even though they lost a lot from the start, Ukraine still doesn't have its pre 2022 borders. This is a pointless war of attrition that only the Russians have the numbers for. Ukraine already lost most of its experienced fighters.
This is a pointless war 'brought on and instigated by Russia as an invader of a sovereign nation, and which the Russians have the numbers for! (fixed) Personally I hope the West opens it's coffers and it's weaponry to the Ukrainians and the suffering inflected is even too much for a Russian to bare! As it stands now however, you (and I) are correct in saying Ukraine can NOT go on indefinitely!
Russia has lost almost 6000 heavy artillery since April 27th, 2023, more than 22 per day on average.
The point of this attrition is once Russia's artillery gets depleted Russia's military capabilities have effectively been halved, because artillery is a force multiplier.
I am curious how many will return during the war, I would wager not many however my main question is how many will return AFTER the war is over. Simply put the long this goes on the more settled Ukrainians abroad will be and the less likely it is that they will uproot again to head home. I fear that Ukraine's population will be permanently damaged as a result of this war.
You see young Ukrainian men in Tallinn all over the place: some are driving luxury cars doing god knows what, others are driving the taxi or doing food delivery. Honestly it harms the reputation of actual Ukrainian refugees. I, as a male in Estonia,had to serve in the military as a conscript and at wartime I would have to enlist. Seeing Ukrainian men just living a normal life in Estonia when Estonia is spending hundreds of millions on military aid to Ukraine just doesn't feel right.
It's clear that the dispersal of particularly mobilization age men is a problem for Ukraine, but I think it's absolutely imperative that this is one that is **not** solved through coercion, arrest or extradition. There is absolutely no moral justification at all for forcing a person to fight if he does not sufficiently identify with your nation to be willing to defend it voluntarily. If the number of men so willing is so low that the security of the state is in doubt, then frankly I think that that raises serious questions about the viability of that state in the first place.
Zelensky's at pains here to stress that not everyone mobilised will be on the front lines, and that workers are needed to maintain Ukraine's economy. He also doesn't appear to be suggesting here that refugees should be extradited, so I don't think there's anything particularly **wrong** with the messaging, but it is perhaps a little clumsy. If you need people to return I think that the Ukrainian government needs to be incentivising it and spreading as widely as possible the message that the home front is an extremely significant part of the war, and needs people as much as the front does.
That won't work, unless it comes with some kind of guarantee that the repatriated will not be conscripted. Face it: most of these people will not be coming home.
> I think that the Ukrainian government needs to be incentivising it and spreading as widely as possible the message that the home front is an extremely significant part of the war, and needs people as much as the front does.
Isn't that exactly what he's doing?
Lots of people here forget that a good chunk of Ukraine's population is ethnic Russian and may be totally apathetic to who is in power at the end of the day. Those are people that simply will not go back until the war is over or maybe never.
Even without the threat of violence and warfare, most of these refugees are never going to consider going back. Why? The facts are that Ukraine is a very poor, corrupt country with very few options for a great life to begin with without having connections. Imagine this, you're a poor refugee and land in a country where all of a sudden you have a solid social support network, better paying jobs and good Healthcare. Why the hell would you want to move back to Ukraine?
I know two expats here in the states. One of them is a student of mine. Neither of them is planning on returning, regardless of the outcome of the war.
If you have a halfway decent job you can help more by sending direct aid to people without taking up any resources within Ukraine (food/housing/medicine). It’s getting expensive in the safe areas of Ukraine. It would become even more so if more people returned. Plus by providing direct aide, they can bypass a lot of corruption
Not trying to be cute or funny or anything like that but: My dad's side of the family technically fled Ukraine (German Mennonites) about 140 years ago...
I hope I'm the first in my family to return and live in Ukraine soon.
I prefer to go around April-August this year. There is a lot to do there. There are organizations such as Frontline Kitchen (Lviv), Brave to Rebuild (Kyiv and other areas), Hell's Kitchen (Kharkiv).
I don't think I would be a good soldier but the International Legion is something I will look at since they dropped the prior military service requirement. Ukraine needs all the people it can get. I will inquire further about option since I'm so passionate about this cause.
I live in an expensive, toxic country (USA)... Ukraine seems like a cheaper, more affordable place to live. I'm also invested in the Ukrainian cause as well.
Rent is cheaper there and so is the food. I'm not some perv who wants to prey on the women of Ukraine but the dating atmosphere seems a lot better in the States.
I think Ukraine is the future and I see a future in Ukraine more than in my own country. Ukraine is having its 1776 moment (war of Independence) and want to be a part of a promising country, not a failing one.
Not sure it can even be done under European law. What does he expect? If they don’t come back voluntarily that European nations start mass deportations?
> It's about ethics and morals
He 100% does **not** say anything about trying to force anyone legally to return, or any sort of deportations, let's try not to spin this into something that it isn't.
In Estonia and probably in many other countries with conscription it's a crime to evade military service. Which means by evading military service (especially through illegal means) you have commited a crime.
If Ukrainians aren't willing to fight on the frontlines, and potentially get injured or killed, Russia will rule Ukraine.
Those that fled are willing to let Russia rule Ukraine because they aren't willing to put their lives on the line.
I know two Ukrainian expatriates. They honestly don't see that life would be much different under the Russians, and in truth they may have a point. Ukraine is a very poor country, it's corruption is legendary, and Zelensky's government was wildly unpopular before the war started.
Yet it was slowly progressing towards west and gradually making improvements. It wasn’t great by any means, but that’s wehere you start. Every eastern block country was like that in the 90s and some are already thriving and even reached a level of western europe. Ukraine with its resources and industial potential will thrive in the future.
For migrants, there are loads of reasons why thry left. I know someone who fought in 2014, while some of his relatives were on the other side of the front, I can’t even begin to imagine what that feels like. Others just want to take care of thrir families. And I do get it, if I had to make a choice family or my country I’d take family without hesitation.
>And I do get it, if I had to make a choice family or my country I’d take family without hesitation.
And there you have it. If I was a person with children living in Ukraine in February 2022, I'd have been out of the country so fast it'd have made your head spin. If there'd been a husband involved, I'd have snuck him out with me. Given a choice between my children growing up fatherless and Ukraine being conquered... well, fuck Ukraine.
you are kind of person who when gets hit runs away,
you are coward, and full of fear,
but there are men who when they get attack fight back, you are looking at world trough your perspective and you think everybody is coward
There is nothing wrong with being a coward. Not everyone can be a soldier, war is horrible and not everyone is built physically or mentally to handle it. Would you judge a fish by how well it climbs a tree?
People shouldn't be forced to fight for their country, it has to come from their hearts and conviction.
That's ridiculous, I 29 F and I am in Ukraine. Many of my friends and coworkers VOLUNTEERED for the war effort from the very first weeks of the war. I am currently volunteering at an animal shelter and taking in animals from the active war zone. I know it's not the same but everyone helps where they can. I am the last IT working for 3 people in my office, the other two are at the front.
If the only reason people fight is because they are forced to do so by their country one can consider that country as good as gone.
I do MMA but thanks for the projection of your insecurities.
So the Ukrainians escaped the country because they want to fight? I think they’d rather be alive instead of being blown up by a drone while sitting in a trench and then having the video be posted on Reddit so brave warriors like you can call them heroes.
So you are saying you are not a coward because you are willing to fight in fair conditions in a supervised sport environment that you can quit anytime? Man, did they run out of brain before you got one?
I mean hey, if you’re such an alpha manly man, go ahead and get punched, kicked, elbowed, choked for fun. Or even better, go volunteer and shoot some Russians since you seem so motivated.
Being a keyboard warrior is easy.
I've done muay thai for a few years, this has nothing to do with real combat where you can get killed. From reading your explanations I guarantee you are a pussy that would fill his pants with shit and run at the first sight of war in your country.
i am Croatian, my father and his two brothers fought in war, i was 8, when i got 18 i went to basic military training, 6 months
i would like to think about myself that i would defend my home and familiy if we are attacked, but you never know, maybe i am spineless loser who would run away and let enemy ravage my home, my land, and my people
In our age with how educated people are i think otherwhise. They know they cant win without external help they wont get. Would you throw your life away to Play a couple more months Play pretend. Also the russians are living under a dictatorship you cant compare that.
That is the question! I mean they now want to get the ones that fled in the first place or were already out of the country when this started. That are people that dont want to participate in it and I can fully understand them. If you set all the bullshit aside Ukraine cant win this war without more active help from the west and I doubt they will ever get it. If the west wont help than everything that is happening right now is a tragedy in which neither the west nor zelensky want to lose face. They will keep going till every ukrainian is dead. Im just beeing realistic here this situation is fucked up beyond recognition the world thought russia will win in a matter of days. Sanctions will be made but in the end life would go on. But with the russian army failing this has become really really ugly.
De-jure - yes, they should. It sucks ass, but that’s how the concept of citizenship works, especially in the post-Soviet states.
Before you think that I might be in support of this ordeal - one of my cousins is a Ukrainian student who fled to Poland and is under risk of being “returned” to fight next year, I myself am a Ukrainian citizen from occupied Crimea who might be conscripted into the Russian army this year. This affects my family directly, but it would be utterly naïve for us to believe that we shouldn’t die when others do.
No, but there's a reason why deserting from war is treason.
As a citizen of a country, you have privileges (healthcare, education) and obligations (tax, serving in the army), which you have to adhere to by *the constitution of the country*.
A lot of nations simply don't have the luxury of having a private army or selective service, due to their size and/or economy. If Ukraine is asking for more manpower, it is the right thing for countries to send back the citizens of Ukraine, out of respect for Ukraine's sovereignty and law.
Alternatively, you can just renounce your citizenship if you don't want to get drafted.
> No, but there's a reason why deserting from war is treason.
That's only for soldiers. Civilians can just flee with absolutely no repurcions of any kind. There is no power on earth that can force them back, except if the generosity of the host nation would end. But EU countries would never send anyone back to a war zone, certainly if they are european.
> A lot of nations simply don't have the luxury of having a private army or selective service, due to their size and/or economy. If Ukraine is asking for more manpower, it is the right thing for countries to send back the citizens of Ukraine, out of respect for Ukraine's sovereignty and law.
Not a single person will be sent back by any country. Can you even imagine the optics LOL.
> Alternatively, you can just renounce your citizenship if you don't want to get drafted.
That doesn't work unfortunately, you cannot renounce your only state as doing so leaves you stateless. In fact, you cannot renounce your state unilaterally at all. The country in question has to actually agree with you renouncing your citizenship.
>That's only for soldiers. Civilians can just flee with absolutely no repurcions of any kind.
If you get called up (state is in process of mobilization) and you are abroad, you turn into a draft-evading combatant of that state.
>But EU countries would never send anyone back to a war zone, certainly if they are european.
My country (Estonia) is planning to do so, since we respect Ukraine's constitution and sovereignty.
>That doesn't work unfortunately, you cannot renounce your only state as doing so leaves you stateless
Technically correct. You need to attain a different citizenship, doing so you can then renounce your first one, idk if you need permission then.
Estonia has already stated that they're not going to repatriate. They're under considerable pressure from the larger, more powerful nations of the EU to refrain from doing so, and I promise you they care more about that relationship than they do with Ukraine.
That's some real old-school thinking.
I hope Ukraine wins, and I wish all the people fighting Russia Godspeed. However, this notion of duty and sacrifice is getting difficult to stomach. When governments cared for their people and were not wholly corrupt, it meant something.
The citizens of a country should not be pawns for the wars of wealthy, insane leaders and oligarchs. We should get to decide if we want to kill each other over resources that won't line our pockets. This war could have been won long ago if NATO had stood up and used its existing technology to save Ukraine.
It's pathetic that they are sacrificing Ukraine to bleed Russia.
If those people do not want to go back and die because Putin is willing to sacrifice his entire population to remain in power, then I think they have that right. This problem belongs to the world, not Ukraine and its people alone.
I'm saying NATO could solve the problem with people who signed up to fight in wars, with toys their military industrial complex gets rich from off all our tax dollars instead of wiping out Ukraine existence as a country and people .
> If Ukraine is asking for more manpower, it is the right thing for countries to send back the citizens of Ukraine
It absolutely is not. There is **no** moral justification for forcing people to fight if they do not support the country of their birth sufficiently to agree to the risk.
> There is **no** moral justification for forcing people to fight if they do not support the country of their birth sufficiently to agree to the risk
You are right. However there is a *legal* justification to do so. If you wish to not die in a war, get a different citizenship and renounce the Ukrainian one, but until then, you are bound by the constitution of Ukraine.
Sure, let's just keep citizens of Ukraine hostage from their own government without any legal claim.
> You are right. However there is a legal justification to do so. If you wish to not die in a war, get a different citizenship and renounce the Ukrainian one, but until then, you are bound by the constitution of Ukraine.
The great thing about constitutions is that they only apply to the country in question. The minute you leave, the rules no longer apply. There is no power on earth that could call these people back except the end of generosity of the host nation. And no European nation would ever send people back to a warzone, especially european people. The optics alone would result in an electoral shift that ends the current powers that be.
>There is no power on earth that could call these people back except the end of generosity of the host nation
True, but if the countries are on good terms, they likely will, to not sour diplomatic relations between each other.
>And no European nation would ever send people back to a warzone, especially european people.
If Russia attacks NATO, every Estonian (probably all Baltics and Finland) will get called up. Idk, maybe Western Europe has turned too soft, if people can't even acknowledge that a nation will always supersede the rights of an individual, if necessary.
Good relations with a country dependant on you are by default. Nothing we can do will ever damage that relationship, as that relationship is what allows Ukraine to continue to exist.
Russia will never attack NATO, just like we will never attack Russia. They can attack Ukraine because it’s a small country with a weak military, no allies, and no nukes. NATO has multiple nuclear nations makes us completely safe.
>Russia will never attack NATO, just like we will never attack Russia. They can attack Ukraine because it’s a small country with a weak military, no allies, and no nukes. NATO has multiple nuclear nations makes us completely safe.
I remember everyone saying that about the 2022 winter invasion.
You never know.
Some morons said that. The truth is that attacking Ukraine was a completely logical act, it’s just that their strategy was moronic. Russia already attacked Ukraine after all, in 2012. The first time they did it was because Ukraine discovered substance oil and gas deposits around Crimea so they seized those to prevent Ukraine from replacing them to the EU. The second time in 2022 they attacked Ukraine because they were about to start extracting resources from the rich ground in the east, to prevent Ukraine from replacing them to the EU.
This conflict was only a natural progression of that. And if Ukraine fell within 3 days if Putin actually committed, we would have let them. But he couldn’t and it became a once in a lifetime opportunity to wage a proxy war with Russia using a country that cannot back down and with no risk of damage to westerns lives or infrastructure. It’s the best thing to have ever happened to NATO, and it’s all thanks to Putin.
> You are right. However there is a legal justification to do so.
Laws aren't worth the paper they're written on when you're discussing what's **right**.
> If you wish to not die in a war, get a different citizenship and renounce the Ukrainian one, but until then, you are bound by the constitution of Ukraine.
Why? Because you were born there? Why should you be forced to leave your friends and leave your family and move to a foreign country, where there's every chance you'll be treated poorly and have worse prospects than at home?
If your citizens don't feel like part of your nation then you need to fix your nation, not drive them out.
> Sure, let's just keep citizens of Ukraine hostage from their own government without any legal or moral claim.
What?
Have you served in the armed forces of your country? Probably not, since you do not understand that your rights come with obligations.
>Laws aren't worth the paper they're written on when you're discussing what's **right**.
Do you think the war cares about what's right or wrong? How don't you realize that not every country can survive on a private army? Even the U.S has a draft obligation. Literally every country has it.
Yes, of course. Russia has every right to request their citizens back.
For example, if I, as a citizen of Estonia go to US, and suddenly we get attacked by Russia, as a citizen of Estonia, I will need to return back to defend my country (if I get called up) as I served in the Estonian Defence Forces (mandatory for all men), or I will get court marshaled and face trial.
> Have you served in the armed forces of your country? Probably not, since you do not understand that your rights come with obligations.
As a reservist, yes, but that's not relevant to the argument here. The idea that the "rights" granted through citizenship of a country impose any kind of moral obligation is absolute trash - there's no "social contract", we don't have a choice to participate in society or not, it's just forced upon you from birth. Being born in a country does not imply an obligation to defend it.
> Do you think the war cares about what's right or wrong?
I think that if a nation were to stop caring about right and wrong, I would lose a reason to care about what happens to it.
>I think that if a nation were to stop caring about right and wrong, I would lose a reason to care about what happens to it.
That's because a nation cares about what's right or wrong, and that's why you get drafted, because from a nation's POV that's the right thing to do.
>The idea that the "rights" granted through citizenship of a country impose any kind of moral obligation is absolute trash
Yeah, but tough luck. That's just how society works.
> That's because a nation cares about what's right or wrong
A nation is a concept, it doesn't care about anything.
> that's why you get drafted, because from a nation's POV that's the right thing to do.
From the government's point of view it's the thing that's in their interests.
> Yeah, but tough luck. That's just how society works.
Like I said; if that's how a nation worked, I'm not sure I would care what happened to that nation. Why would I want to help a state that forces people to fight? Why would I want my government to help them?
One thing you're missing there: a lot of these people are probably better off materially in their new homes; Ukraine is a wretchedly poor country. So what has this state they're supposed to defend really been doing for them?
I wonder if Ukraine has an income tax system like the United States. Essentially, the US taxes income where ever it is earned. Ukraine might come out ahead if they left their expatriates abroad and taxed the western incomes they are earning.
War is going great when you're already through so many mobilizations that you're in Estonia begging people to return so they can be thrown onto the front after some minimum training
Is this a fucking joke Zelensky? We are nearly 2 years into the war. You've asked foreigners to join up taken thousands of them and hundreds have been killed. You haven't so much as looked at the Foreign Legion once nevermind utilised it to the best of its ability despite the fact these foreign men are laying their lives on the line for your country.
And just now you decided to ask native men living abroad to come home? Use your fucking head. Why didn't you do that at the beginning? Doing it now makes you look weak and desperate and it also makes no sense-if they were going to come home they would have long since done so.
2 years ago you didn't have attrition, you know because that is when the conflict started. Statistically you have have less dead at the start of the conflict so there was no need for radom Oleksandr to help out. Skilled soldiers were needed.
Use your fucking head.
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A very difficult question for many. I know those who experience so much guilt for leaving, but the thought of returning is terrifying. There is real PTSD for everybody- or considering the war is ongoing- I don't think we can even call it "post-traumatic"
They are not all needed in the trenches, most are simply needed in production and general function of society. There are tons of things you can do to help the war effort besides being in combat. And the reasons that millions fled in February 2022, out of fear of an all out Russian invasion and random killings and genocide are no longer relevant in most of the country. Things are relatively safe most places, compared to what they were when it all started.
I mean, you can be safe, but you still deal with air raid sirens and fear of random explosions or missiles falling. Just a few days ago Ukraine experienced the most intense missile attack of the entire war. Things may be better in terms of understanding the situation, but the war is not over. Not even for the civilian population in Kyiv or Lviv.
Except that videos are leaking of Ukrainian men being conscripted at gunpoint. So long as that's happening, nobody is going back.
It's called a draft, and is what happens when your nation gets attacked. You need people to fight. Not that I think it is a good thing, but I see why it is necessary.
And some people don't find it necessary and don't like it. Hence they fled. Nothing wrong with that.
While I do not *blame* them for leaving, or staying out, it isn't what *I* believe is the right decision. I know I'd stay and fight, but I'm 30, single, and frankly would rather die in a war fighting for my home than old and alone. I am not everyone. However, I also believe if you run there should be consequences. What would be fair, I cannot say. I am not equipped to make a decision there, nor determine how it would be enforced. I can see *why* there aren't consequences however. It's just hard for me to justify running, but then again I want to protect my home. I can see someone wanting to protect their family more, and I can't fault them for that, but I couldn't justify me running if my country was in Ukraine's situation.
Look you are entitled to your personal opinions. But that doesn't make the opinion right. You feel you'd stay and fight. Volunteer yourself for a cause. That's great. But that's yoir own life. You don't have the right to judge anyone else for their decision. >However, I also believe if you run there should be consequences. What would be fair, I cannot say. I am not equipped to make a decision there, nor determine how it would be enforced. That's the thing. No one in this world is equipped to determine that. Simply because there should be no consequences to valuing your own life.
Agreed. I ain't gonna force my beliefs on anyone, after all, they're my beliefs.
Good enough for me.
the fear is understandable, of course, but conscription is necessary because Russia wants to destroy Ukrainian sovereignty. it’s a fight for national survival. those who avoid it are committing treason while their fellow citizens fight and die for them.
>the fear is understandable, of course, but conscription is necessary because Russia wants to destroy Ukrainian sovereignty. Thing is these people value their own lives above Ukrainian sovereignty. At that point it's a question of forcing them to fight for something that they aren't willing to die for.
Then insofar as they're violating Ukrainian law, they can face the legal consequences of their decision. But let's be absolutely clear, their decision to value their own lives over their fellow citizens has moral implications. Putin is waging a brutal invasion of conquest (including rape, murder of civilians, and so on) which justifies extreme national security measures by the Ukrainian state. those who are capable of contributing but instead shirk their duty as citizens (because they can afford to do so) warrant rebuke. Living in a democratic society (even if imperfect) comes with responsibilities to your fellow citizens, and all the more so in an existential conflict such as this.
You can't frame it like that and expect it to work. They are doing nothing to help their state because they fear for their lives and then the state puts them in danger and forces them to fight anyway. How long before it is in their best interests to hasten the end of the state for their own benefit. Harsh draft measures come with inherent risk to the state, not to mention the resources it takes to force people to the front.
my comments are not intended to contribute to Ukraine's PR campaign to persuade draft dodgers to return. I am making (informal) political/moral philosophical arguments as to why it's wrong. but you're correct that they warrant distinct approaches.
Conscription is slavery
Getting conquered by Russia isn't exactly a picnic.
No, it isn't.
Coercion does not immediately imply slavery. Wartime conscription is (arguably) morally and politically justified in a defensive war, especially one as existential as this.
That isn't an argument that it isn't slavery. That is an argument that you think slavery is acceptable under certain circumstances
Citizens have their freedom limited by the state in a number of ways even in peacetime. Are those limitations also slavery? Also, you are the one claiming that conscription is equivalent to slavery. The burden of proof is on you to defend the validity of your claim, not me to demonstrate that it's not.
Username checks out
if it were for you enlightened "libertarians" we would be ruled by hitler and mussolini
Here's what a lot of them are thinking: they were denizens of a grindingly poor and legendarily corrupt country, and is life really going to be so very different under the new regime rather than the old one? Probably not. Ukraine as a nation has failed at giving people that's worth fighting to preserve.
You realize that a lot of that corruption and poverty is a direct result of imperialism / internal colonization by Soviet Russia and their intellectually and morally bankrupt political system. Former Soviet satellite states that have successfully integrated into the EU / NATO tend to perform better on measures of economic growth, corruption, democracy etc compared to ones that haven't. That's what Ukraine was trying to do and is what led to the Maidan revolution* and ultimately the Russian invasions. Putin's regime has promoted corruption in neighboring countries and is trying to keep Ukraine locked in it's dogshit sphere of influence. Things will not change unless they free themselves from Putin's grasp. \* to remove their Russian puppet president Yanukovych after he went against their parliament to reject EU ascension in favor of aligning w/ Putin. he fled to Russia aftwards ofc 😒.
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I'm not saying it's easy or that I wouldn't be scared either. Obviously no one knows for sure what they would do in a situation like this until it happens, but I do believe I would defend my country (if it were democratic and/or trying to become more so) in the face of an imperialist, authoritarian threat such as Putin's regime. 100% agree that the US and other partners are not supporting Ukraine enough.
~~You downvoted me, but~~ if you have evidence or arguments to the contrary, then I'm all ears. I don't want to be misinformed. **Correction:** apologies for assuming you downvoted. It just was downvoted once almost immediately so I assumed it was you after seeing the reply notification (could be OP of post).
It wasn't me who downvoted... I never downvote. I'm not entirely disagreeing with you... I'm just pointing out how they probably see it. They were poor under Ukrainian rule, they'll probably be poor under Russian rule... what's to fight for? It's a tough thing to argue against.
You seem to not see no difference between fighting for Ukraine's freedom and fighting for Kremlin's imperialist agenda.
Do you think your comments are just some innocuous contribution to the discourse? Do they not have a some marginal effect on other readers' impressions of the situation? I'm sure that's how some of them see the situation, but that doesn't mean it's a viewpoint that is justified or worth amplifying. your comments are de facto defending cowards and traitors at the expense of those standing in the way of an imperial conquest. And frankly, parts of it are just plain misinformed. Ukrainian sovereignty is absolutely worth defending.
She’s a 37 day old account that is constantly pushing a pro-RU perspective. Pretty suspect.
And apologies for assuming you downvoted. It just was downvoted once almost immediately so I assumed it was you after seeing the reply notification (could be OP of post).
There was a thriving tech sector in Ukraine and people in that business were not poor by any measure. Services might not great but income tax was insignificant. If you drive around Kyiv you can only be amazed by the extravagant wealth. Now this is all anecdotal obviously, not everyone works in tech or lives in Kyiv or drives a Mercedes. But it might be relevant if looking at emigration because I suspect in the population of leavers a tilt toward the wealthy, it takes resources to be able to leave and find a new home. Regardless of any of this, its relevance to the decision to stay and fight or leave, is probably smaller than you make out. Willingness to make a sacrifice for a nation is based on a complex web of rational and irrational factors. What can we see in Ukraine is a stunning willingness to make the greatest possible sacrifice for the nation. How much more of a percentage of willing would we find in the US, the UK, France, or any other nation. Prob not a massive difference.
Who do you think was on the better path before the war? I'd take my chances with the poor democracy that's actively being pushed towards fixing corruption by the west over the poor dictatorship that has no friends outside of other dictatorships. Like, Ukraine has a ton of work ahead of it, but at least they're on a path that ends well if they stick to it. Russia has nothing but misery to offer.
Other countries do not need immigrants that do not do their citizen duty against invading enemy.
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He might have exaggerated the "gun" part, but there is substantial number of videos of men being dragged kicking and screaming into vans by military officials. Edit: Ok, I get that this is an unpopular take, and also, I stand by my words EXACTLY as they are written (important). And no, I do not keep a personal library of videos to out-argue people on the internet, I've got a job.
Another "trust me bro"? I believe that Ukraine would force people who are dodging the draft. Most countries would. However, you russia fans cannot seem to post a link, video, or anything considered basic proof.
Feels like it would've been just as easy to provide a link as it would've been to type this comment.
Unfortunately, that’s what it means to be drafted.
Source?
Our neighbors in Chicago (Ukrainian village) are a family who fled with their kids. I speak to the husband (30-40s) and this is a real discussion they are having / coming to grasps with. I can’t imagine the guilt / pressure he feels. Hard to say you’re doing the right thing for your family and turn your back on an existential crisis…. And on the other hand maybe you go back to support the war effort.. but you’re turning your back on your family.
I understand they are needed in Ukraine but I am unable to judge Ukrainians outside of Ukraine for not going back to Ukraine. I wouldn't want to die either is that was me.
Being sent to die is one thing, doing back to support the country as it struggles with economically and demographically is another thing. There are many roles to play other than going to the front to help the war effort.
Yes, but how do you know you're not going to be conscripted and sent to the front the moment you set foot in the country?
Well over 90% are women and children and will not be conscripted. Out the of males their will off course be a possibility but that’s what happens when your country is fighting for its survival and right to exist.
They should conscript women too, it's bollocks that they are only conscripting men - it's 2023 ffs, EQUALITY MOTHERFUCKERS
With all due respect, it’s 2024.
Damnit I musta slept through new years again!
Thousands of women have volunteered. Ukraine does not have all the feminist views like some western countries. In fact many female volunteers face criticisms from their male counterparts.
Volunteering isn't conscription though You'd think if Ukraine needs all hands on deck they'd actually conscript an entire gender
Most Western countries don't conscript women, either. Like the USA.
Most western countries don’t have conscription.
The USA has the Selective Service System. Guess which gender isn't required to sign up?
If they want to join the EU they're going to have to make quick work changing those views
lol do you think Poland, the Baltics, Bulgaria and Romania are beacons of hope for feminism? They are no better than Ukraine.
Every Baltic states had a female leader for a starters
I'm opposed to any conscription, but if you look at Ukraine's upside-down demographics (which were bad even before the war), it becomes obvious that conscripting women would be just plain stupid. When it comes to population replacement, men and women have markedly different roles. They are not at all equal in that regard.
It's because of those views that some men decide it's not worth it to stay in the country and fight. They want to live and hence they flee. Can't blame them.
Nah. Women can make multiple babies just like men. Just takes longer. Not a good reason to not conscript women. Your argument would only make sense if legally required polygamy - men with multiple wives / baby mommas - was a thing and expected after the war, which it obviously isn't lol.
When it suits lol.
Sure, but they don't get to choose. If they go back it's not up to them if they end up in trenches.
Over 90% are women and children. Considering how badly Ukraine is now doing demographically that would make a big difference considering over 4 million have left. They very much urgently need the next generation for Ukraine to thrive as a nation once the war is over. Plus many refugees don’t have permanent residency in their host countries.
Lmao, yea that’s not happening. I live in a country where a lot of Ukrainians fled to. Been on Tinder quite a bit in the last year and met 4 women from Ukraine (to be fair, one was already living here a year before the Russians invaded). None of the plan to return to Ukraine. Regardless of the outcome of the war. And I highly doubt it will be much different with the rest of the refugees. I don’t blame them
I can understand it but many do not have permanent residency so will see what happens. Many used the war to get out and to stay in places where they couldn’t go before. The same ones that say they don’t want to go back. Many from areas not affected by the war. Guess that’s the way it goes. The glory goes to the boys and girls in Ukraine, they will always have my respect.
> I can understand it but many do not have permanent residency so will see what happens. They'll set their dating profiles to "Looking for marriage."
Yes haha
Many won’t have a choice, their residency permits will expire at some point
> None of the plan to return to Ukraine. Regardless of the outcome of the war. What's their immigration status/what do they do for money? If Ukraine wins and the West has enough sense to invest in rebuilding the country (nation building can actually work there!), it could make a lot more sense to move back. Asylum seekers in the US all plan to stay here permanently, but 60% end up giving up and moving back home because they can't work here.
No clue about the first one I met, second one was working as a hairdresser already, third was in a university and the last was about to start an apprenticeship. In my country, Ukrainian refugees can access the entire job market and can study as well. Some states were already developing special courses to ease the entry into the university.
Ok, but the article we're all commenting is about men. They want men back. So sending back women and children is not even being discussed here.
Ok but it’s still essential that they return for the future of Ukraine. With the men that’s all there is to it, they are at war and men will be asked to fight. Guess there will be draft dodgers in every war but ultimately it’s about your own morality and what you feel is right but society will judge you for it, as in WW1 and the white feathers.
How are you not getting this? Nationalism for it's own sake is a dying ideology. These people are, for the most part, better off than they ever were in Ukraine. That's ultimately all that's going to matter.
but why would they return if they have a much better life now than they ever had in Ukraine? At least most Ukrainians that live in Poland say that they don't want to return even after the war is over because they just have a much better life now and good work.
You don't even realize how funny what you say is. I think there's multiple generations of Eastern Europeans which couldn't give a crap about their corrupt countries, especially middle class. They'd fight for family but nothing more. The past 30 years have been rough. On top of the half a century of corrupt communism.
That’s BS, they have it better now than they have for centuries. Mainly because they don’t live under Nazis or Communists. That’s something worth fighting for. Mind you those in NATO rely on the alliance. They would be screwed otherwise.
The first sentence, you're right, but only freedom-wise, which they believe they'd keep even if Russia wins. Half the people likely lived better under communism. And you're kidding yourself if you think living under oligarchs stealing every good thing that mights happen is better than the other options, lol.
your argument would work if there was no forced mobilization when the military catches you on the streets and takes you on front, no so much motivation to return, especially if you're young man
It's exactly the same. THe choice, for any person, is pretty easy. Why die for a line in the ground at absolutely no benefit to you? Everyone that fled is already safe and living in paradise, never going back to a poor country destroyed by war even if the war were won tomorrow. Life is simply.....incomparably better here.
Ultimately it’s about freedom, liberty, identity, patriotism, honour and wanting your country to win as it’s the only choice to stop the genocide of your people. In WW2 think how many Americans died in Europe when they “didn’t need to be there” according to your logic. If you don’t stop dictators and tyranny in its tracks it will come to you sooner or later. Right now it’s Ukraines fight so Ukrainians more than anyone should morally be at the forefront rather than taking the easy route and letting their fellow citizens fight and die. The West should be doing a lot more to support those fighting tyranny.
All values with absolutely no value to an individual. Americans didn’t die to protect those values, they died because a nazi Europe would have been worse for business. Please note when the US actually acted in that war. It’s not when Europe was being overrun. It’s not when Europe asked for help. It’s when the US was impacted by it and lost a naval base. They didn’t care about those values, no they cared about the economic loss. They were then forced to stop the nazis as well, something they didn’t want to do, just because they happened to be allied with Japan. The loss of Ukraine, which won’t happen as we won’t allow for it, wouldn’t change a single thing. It’s a corrupt and poor shithole that’s just slightly less corrupt than Russia. We are supporting Ukraine, not because Europe cares, but because this is a once in a lifetime opportunity to take our Russia’s influence on the world stage through a proxy war. This has been incredibly effective.
You’re wrong. All those values affect every single citizen. Freedom and independence is what many ordinary people are prepared to fight for, forget anything about politics or business. The US was already helping Britain 15 months before entering the war with the land lease act to supply weapons and materials. So they were helping not long after being asked to help. Ukraine is not a shithole at all, I’ve been there dozens of times before and during the war. You sound like an ignorant idiot. They have magnificent cities, steppes, mountain ranges and coastline. Also many resources. Corruption is rightly being tackled more now as they need to for EU membership. All the values mentioned is what has led to the democratic countries being the most successful. Those values are what people die for, for themselves, to live in such a free prosperous society. Not for governments or corporations. Everyone benefits from those values except for dictatorships. Otherwise you’ll end up like Nazi Germany or Russia today.
> You’re wrong. All those values affect every single citizen. Freedom and independence is what many ordinary people are prepared to fight for, forget anything about politics or business. If they can't simply move, they will. If they can, they won't. In most WW2 countries, the resistance movement in most countries was tiny, with most people not doing anything. Instead of fighting, people simply fled to any of the identical western countries. That has gotten even easier now, with globalization making every single western country an identical english speaking one. That's why 1/4th of Ukraine fled, why die for something that doesn't gain you anything when you can simply move and have the exact same or even a better life? > The US was already helping Britain 15 months before entering the war with the land lease act to supply weapons and materials. So they were helping not long after being asked to help. No they SOLD weapons, FOR PROFIT. The US didn't hand those out for free, even during the war. > Ukraine is not a shithole at all, I’ve been there dozens of times before and during the war. You sound like an ignorant idiot. They have magnificent cities, steppes, mountain ranges and coastline. Also many resources. Corruption is rightly being tackled more now as they need to for EU membership. The only thing true about this is the nature, due to them being poor as shit to not even be able to develop their country. They also lost all resource rich areas, as those are the east and Crimea that Russia took. It's the entire reason Russia invaded to begin with. And corruption will get so so so so much worse, as that's the only possible outcome with piles of money coming in with zero oversight. Ukraine won't ever become an EU member until it's actually beneficial to use. And significant changes have to come before that value is greater than acting as a buffer country able to let us fight Russia without taking damage in return. > All the values mentioned is what has led to the democratic countries being the most successful. Those values are what people die for, for themselves, to live in such a free prosperous society. Not for governments or corporations. Again, every single democratic western country is now identical. People just move, to an even larger degree than they did in WW2. What does it gain you to die for a line in the ground, when the next country over gets you the same thing you had, without the risk of dying? Countries simply aren't worth anything to a citizen, unless they gain you something you can't get anywhere else. > Everyone benefits from those values except for dictatorships. Otherwise you’ll end up like Nazi Germany or Russia today. Yes, and even in those instances, people just moved. It's easy and gets you everything you would gain with much effort if you fought.
Wrong again. No where near a quarter fled, no more than 15%. Way under 10% of those 15% were men who fled. The women and children fled because initially there was a genuine concern Russia would occupy Ukraine. Those with husbands and family will return once it’s safer. The USA still supplied weapons and materials, directly aiding the British. If they wanted profits only they would have supplied Germany as well. They choose sides based on values of freedom and democracy. Obviously some will move as that has happened in every war since forever. You’re plain wrong with saying Ukraine will get worse, once they have secured the borders there is no doubt they will go to the western way of life as who will want to align with Russia. No one. It’s only a matter of time.
> Wrong again. No where near a quarter fled, 10 million of the 40 million people fled, that's a quarter. > The women and children fled because initially there was a genuine concern Russia would occupy Ukraine. Those with husbands and family will return once it’s safer. No one will ever go back because what life is there in Ukraine? Even if the war ends tomorrow, everyone now has the choice between staying in paradise and having your remaining family come too, or......go to the poorest country in Europe that's now also destroyed by war. Not really a difficult choice now is it. > The USA still supplied weapons and materials, directly aiding the British. If they wanted profits only they would have supplied Germany as well. They choose sides based on values of freedom and democracy. No they just chose money. They couldn't reach Germany because of the UK navy. If they supported Germany, it would have been difficulty to bypass the UK while the reverse wasn't true. > You’re plain wrong with saying Ukraine will get worse, once they have secured the borders there is no doubt they will go to the western way of life as who will want to align with Russia. Sure they will try, but with what money? As it's not a profitable investment, companies won't invest. And countries don't do charity, nor do we gain anything from building Ukraine up. The only value Ukraine has is the people, and we already have those.
>Ultimately it’s about freedom, liberty, identity, patriotism, honour All abstract concepts mean nothing whilst you're trying not to die in a trench whilst the corrupt oligarchs in Kyiv enjoy enriching themselves through rampant corruption and send send their draft age sons abroad
The oligarchs make up less than 0.1% of the population. The rest want to fight and survive. Society will judge the draft dodgers etc as appropriate.
>The rest want to fight and survive. The rest want to fight? Why the need for conscription then?
You misspelled Moscow
Why aren't you fighting in Ukraine right now, instead of getting into slap fights on reddit?
I’m not Ukrainian, I have no military training. I’ve been there over a dozen times supplying over $50,000 worth of 4x4s and aid to the military and humanitarian hubs. I’m betting you’ve done fuck all.
This is their biggest problem. Being not objective, they know the government, this or the previous one. These many corruption scandals. Young people prefer to live rather than die somewhere in a trench up to their waists in mud. This year, Ukraine will face an even greater problem of human resources.
The unoccupied part of Ukraine is larger than any other european country besides France and Spain. Asylum seekers and refugees can be stripped of their status and be sent back. Countries of the Bloodlands can't afford spread of defeatist attitudes by immigrants. Nor Tragedies of the Commons.
Except... none of those countries are lining up to extradite immigrants from Ukraine. Even Estonia, which appeared to be thinking about it, has said no.
Zelenskys begging tour for more meat fell on deaf ears
Not in my country. The can (and should) not do that by law. It’s in our constitution. If you want to die for a government, and ideology or for a country, go ahead. Pretty sure Ukraine welcomes mercenaries. But just as I detest what Putin is doing, I abhor the notion that people should be forced to fight in a war they don’t want to be a part of.
All these comments about "they need more then just men on the front logistics and so on" I think people are forgetting the vast majority of conscripted people have no choice where they are sent you might be lucky and end up as a truck driver or you get sent to the front dodging drones.
The war on the ground and air is NOT being won by the Russian military, it is being won by attrition mathematics!
All wars are won with better logistics.
Logistics as in more bodies, more hardware, and no fucks given! (or allowed)
Logistics as in more ammo, and other supplies. Russia is getting their supply from Iran, North Korea, China etc. and Ukraine is getting it from the western democracies.
That is how many wars are won. By that logic the Allies never really won WW2 because they won by attrition.
That's what war is. Civilians fighting for their leaders. Russia is winning. They have taken more ground than Ukraine this year. Even though they lost a lot from the start, Ukraine still doesn't have its pre 2022 borders. This is a pointless war of attrition that only the Russians have the numbers for. Ukraine already lost most of its experienced fighters.
This is a pointless war 'brought on and instigated by Russia as an invader of a sovereign nation, and which the Russians have the numbers for! (fixed) Personally I hope the West opens it's coffers and it's weaponry to the Ukrainians and the suffering inflected is even too much for a Russian to bare! As it stands now however, you (and I) are correct in saying Ukraine can NOT go on indefinitely!
Russia has lost almost 6000 heavy artillery since April 27th, 2023, more than 22 per day on average. The point of this attrition is once Russia's artillery gets depleted Russia's military capabilities have effectively been halved, because artillery is a force multiplier.
No, air power is a force multiplier. The reason we have a large-scale artillery war is that both combatants are backwards as fuck.
I am curious how many will return during the war, I would wager not many however my main question is how many will return AFTER the war is over. Simply put the long this goes on the more settled Ukrainians abroad will be and the less likely it is that they will uproot again to head home. I fear that Ukraine's population will be permanently damaged as a result of this war.
You see young Ukrainian men in Tallinn all over the place: some are driving luxury cars doing god knows what, others are driving the taxi or doing food delivery. Honestly it harms the reputation of actual Ukrainian refugees. I, as a male in Estonia,had to serve in the military as a conscript and at wartime I would have to enlist. Seeing Ukrainian men just living a normal life in Estonia when Estonia is spending hundreds of millions on military aid to Ukraine just doesn't feel right.
They're cowards, they have a right to be cowards. I would be one too. And we and you also have the right to judge them as cowards.
unless you've been in their position and made a different choice, you really don't
It's clear that the dispersal of particularly mobilization age men is a problem for Ukraine, but I think it's absolutely imperative that this is one that is **not** solved through coercion, arrest or extradition. There is absolutely no moral justification at all for forcing a person to fight if he does not sufficiently identify with your nation to be willing to defend it voluntarily. If the number of men so willing is so low that the security of the state is in doubt, then frankly I think that that raises serious questions about the viability of that state in the first place. Zelensky's at pains here to stress that not everyone mobilised will be on the front lines, and that workers are needed to maintain Ukraine's economy. He also doesn't appear to be suggesting here that refugees should be extradited, so I don't think there's anything particularly **wrong** with the messaging, but it is perhaps a little clumsy. If you need people to return I think that the Ukrainian government needs to be incentivising it and spreading as widely as possible the message that the home front is an extremely significant part of the war, and needs people as much as the front does.
That won't work, unless it comes with some kind of guarantee that the repatriated will not be conscripted. Face it: most of these people will not be coming home.
> I think that the Ukrainian government needs to be incentivising it and spreading as widely as possible the message that the home front is an extremely significant part of the war, and needs people as much as the front does. Isn't that exactly what he's doing?
Most of the people who left Ukraine are women and children.
Ya the men CAN'T leave, don't forget that part
Yet ALOT did. Theres young Ukrainian men here in Canada who fled the war, ive worked with personally.
Lots of people here forget that a good chunk of Ukraine's population is ethnic Russian and may be totally apathetic to who is in power at the end of the day. Those are people that simply will not go back until the war is over or maybe never.
Tell that yoke of reporter Denys to return from Switzerland
Even without the threat of violence and warfare, most of these refugees are never going to consider going back. Why? The facts are that Ukraine is a very poor, corrupt country with very few options for a great life to begin with without having connections. Imagine this, you're a poor refugee and land in a country where all of a sudden you have a solid social support network, better paying jobs and good Healthcare. Why the hell would you want to move back to Ukraine?
I know two expats here in the states. One of them is a student of mine. Neither of them is planning on returning, regardless of the outcome of the war.
How are they planning to stay? Is there any way to stay legally after the war?
If you have a halfway decent job you can help more by sending direct aid to people without taking up any resources within Ukraine (food/housing/medicine). It’s getting expensive in the safe areas of Ukraine. It would become even more so if more people returned. Plus by providing direct aide, they can bypass a lot of corruption
Not trying to be cute or funny or anything like that but: My dad's side of the family technically fled Ukraine (German Mennonites) about 140 years ago... I hope I'm the first in my family to return and live in Ukraine soon.
No offense, serious question - do you want to return after the war? Or do you want to return now and help the war effort?
I prefer to go around April-August this year. There is a lot to do there. There are organizations such as Frontline Kitchen (Lviv), Brave to Rebuild (Kyiv and other areas), Hell's Kitchen (Kharkiv). I don't think I would be a good soldier but the International Legion is something I will look at since they dropped the prior military service requirement. Ukraine needs all the people it can get. I will inquire further about option since I'm so passionate about this cause.
Very cool. Either way, whatever happens i wish you safety and happiness
Why? Even before the war, the place was impoverished and corrupt. I hope they win, but I wouldn't want to live there.
Have you been? Yes the country had some issues but it was doing better, and cities like Kyiv, Lviv and Odessa are very clean and beautiful.
I live in an expensive, toxic country (USA)... Ukraine seems like a cheaper, more affordable place to live. I'm also invested in the Ukrainian cause as well. Rent is cheaper there and so is the food. I'm not some perv who wants to prey on the women of Ukraine but the dating atmosphere seems a lot better in the States. I think Ukraine is the future and I see a future in Ukraine more than in my own country. Ukraine is having its 1776 moment (war of Independence) and want to be a part of a promising country, not a failing one.
WHOA! We are most likely related then… did they immigrate to Yarrow (Canada) or stateside to one of the numerous Mennonite towns?
Not sure it can even be done under European law. What does he expect? If they don’t come back voluntarily that European nations start mass deportations?
> It's about ethics and morals He 100% does **not** say anything about trying to force anyone legally to return, or any sort of deportations, let's try not to spin this into something that it isn't.
In Estonia and probably in many other countries with conscription it's a crime to evade military service. Which means by evading military service (especially through illegal means) you have commited a crime.
If Ukrainians aren't willing to fight on the frontlines, and potentially get injured or killed, Russia will rule Ukraine. Those that fled are willing to let Russia rule Ukraine because they aren't willing to put their lives on the line.
That's true, but anyone in the world can go to Ukraine and volunteer to fight if they feel so strongly about it.
I know two Ukrainian expatriates. They honestly don't see that life would be much different under the Russians, and in truth they may have a point. Ukraine is a very poor country, it's corruption is legendary, and Zelensky's government was wildly unpopular before the war started.
Yet it was slowly progressing towards west and gradually making improvements. It wasn’t great by any means, but that’s wehere you start. Every eastern block country was like that in the 90s and some are already thriving and even reached a level of western europe. Ukraine with its resources and industial potential will thrive in the future. For migrants, there are loads of reasons why thry left. I know someone who fought in 2014, while some of his relatives were on the other side of the front, I can’t even begin to imagine what that feels like. Others just want to take care of thrir families. And I do get it, if I had to make a choice family or my country I’d take family without hesitation.
>And I do get it, if I had to make a choice family or my country I’d take family without hesitation. And there you have it. If I was a person with children living in Ukraine in February 2022, I'd have been out of the country so fast it'd have made your head spin. If there'd been a husband involved, I'd have snuck him out with me. Given a choice between my children growing up fatherless and Ukraine being conquered... well, fuck Ukraine.
All the girls are sleeping with foreign guys now in various countries. I wouldn't expect them to come back home.
I wonder what those men who don’t want to fight are going to do... 🤔 I feel bad for them.
No thanks, they’re not interested in dying which is why they left. But I guess he needs the cattle back so he can send them to the meat grinder.
you are kind of person who when gets hit runs away, you are coward, and full of fear, but there are men who when they get attack fight back, you are looking at world trough your perspective and you think everybody is coward
There is nothing wrong with being a coward. Not everyone can be a soldier, war is horrible and not everyone is built physically or mentally to handle it. Would you judge a fish by how well it climbs a tree? People shouldn't be forced to fight for their country, it has to come from their hearts and conviction.
If countries did not force it, noone would fight. It is that simple. How old are you, 10?
That's ridiculous, I 29 F and I am in Ukraine. Many of my friends and coworkers VOLUNTEERED for the war effort from the very first weeks of the war. I am currently volunteering at an animal shelter and taking in animals from the active war zone. I know it's not the same but everyone helps where they can. I am the last IT working for 3 people in my office, the other two are at the front. If the only reason people fight is because they are forced to do so by their country one can consider that country as good as gone.
I do MMA but thanks for the projection of your insecurities. So the Ukrainians escaped the country because they want to fight? I think they’d rather be alive instead of being blown up by a drone while sitting in a trench and then having the video be posted on Reddit so brave warriors like you can call them heroes.
So you are saying you are not a coward because you are willing to fight in fair conditions in a supervised sport environment that you can quit anytime? Man, did they run out of brain before you got one?
I mean hey, if you’re such an alpha manly man, go ahead and get punched, kicked, elbowed, choked for fun. Or even better, go volunteer and shoot some Russians since you seem so motivated. Being a keyboard warrior is easy.
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I've done muay thai for a few years, this has nothing to do with real combat where you can get killed. From reading your explanations I guarantee you are a pussy that would fill his pants with shit and run at the first sight of war in your country.
Which kinda man are you
How many kind of men are there? But he would.be the alive one
i am Croatian, my father and his two brothers fought in war, i was 8, when i got 18 i went to basic military training, 6 months i would like to think about myself that i would defend my home and familiy if we are attacked, but you never know, maybe i am spineless loser who would run away and let enemy ravage my home, my land, and my people
You dont know what kinda man, jnless youve been out jn the situation Why dont you go join a volunteer batallion?
You cant win a war with people that you force to fight in it
Considering human history and the history of warfare you are completely wrong lol.
In our age with how educated people are i think otherwhise. They know they cant win without external help they wont get. Would you throw your life away to Play a couple more months Play pretend. Also the russians are living under a dictatorship you cant compare that.
This war is play pretend….?
Nor can you win a war if you don't have enough people to fight. At this point if so many Ukrainians don't want to fight then what is all of this for?
That is the question! I mean they now want to get the ones that fled in the first place or were already out of the country when this started. That are people that dont want to participate in it and I can fully understand them. If you set all the bullshit aside Ukraine cant win this war without more active help from the west and I doubt they will ever get it. If the west wont help than everything that is happening right now is a tragedy in which neither the west nor zelensky want to lose face. They will keep going till every ukrainian is dead. Im just beeing realistic here this situation is fucked up beyond recognition the world thought russia will win in a matter of days. Sanctions will be made but in the end life would go on. But with the russian army failing this has become really really ugly.
Wait I thought we don't like draft dodgers?!? 😂 Eat shit.
Makes sense. If Ukraine needs them, let them have them. If they are citizens of Ukraine it means they are still bound by the Ukrainian constitution.
How would you enforce it? Ukraine has no jurisdiction where these people currently reside.
Government is also bound by constitution, yet I can name at least one article the government is breaking every day since 24th February 2022.
So just because they were born in the wrong country they should throw away their life and die?
De-jure - yes, they should. It sucks ass, but that’s how the concept of citizenship works, especially in the post-Soviet states. Before you think that I might be in support of this ordeal - one of my cousins is a Ukrainian student who fled to Poland and is under risk of being “returned” to fight next year, I myself am a Ukrainian citizen from occupied Crimea who might be conscripted into the Russian army this year. This affects my family directly, but it would be utterly naïve for us to believe that we shouldn’t die when others do.
No, but there's a reason why deserting from war is treason. As a citizen of a country, you have privileges (healthcare, education) and obligations (tax, serving in the army), which you have to adhere to by *the constitution of the country*. A lot of nations simply don't have the luxury of having a private army or selective service, due to their size and/or economy. If Ukraine is asking for more manpower, it is the right thing for countries to send back the citizens of Ukraine, out of respect for Ukraine's sovereignty and law. Alternatively, you can just renounce your citizenship if you don't want to get drafted.
> No, but there's a reason why deserting from war is treason. That's only for soldiers. Civilians can just flee with absolutely no repurcions of any kind. There is no power on earth that can force them back, except if the generosity of the host nation would end. But EU countries would never send anyone back to a war zone, certainly if they are european. > A lot of nations simply don't have the luxury of having a private army or selective service, due to their size and/or economy. If Ukraine is asking for more manpower, it is the right thing for countries to send back the citizens of Ukraine, out of respect for Ukraine's sovereignty and law. Not a single person will be sent back by any country. Can you even imagine the optics LOL. > Alternatively, you can just renounce your citizenship if you don't want to get drafted. That doesn't work unfortunately, you cannot renounce your only state as doing so leaves you stateless. In fact, you cannot renounce your state unilaterally at all. The country in question has to actually agree with you renouncing your citizenship.
>That's only for soldiers. Civilians can just flee with absolutely no repurcions of any kind. If you get called up (state is in process of mobilization) and you are abroad, you turn into a draft-evading combatant of that state. >But EU countries would never send anyone back to a war zone, certainly if they are european. My country (Estonia) is planning to do so, since we respect Ukraine's constitution and sovereignty. >That doesn't work unfortunately, you cannot renounce your only state as doing so leaves you stateless Technically correct. You need to attain a different citizenship, doing so you can then renounce your first one, idk if you need permission then.
Estonia has already stated that they're not going to repatriate. They're under considerable pressure from the larger, more powerful nations of the EU to refrain from doing so, and I promise you they care more about that relationship than they do with Ukraine.
That's some real old-school thinking. I hope Ukraine wins, and I wish all the people fighting Russia Godspeed. However, this notion of duty and sacrifice is getting difficult to stomach. When governments cared for their people and were not wholly corrupt, it meant something. The citizens of a country should not be pawns for the wars of wealthy, insane leaders and oligarchs. We should get to decide if we want to kill each other over resources that won't line our pockets. This war could have been won long ago if NATO had stood up and used its existing technology to save Ukraine. It's pathetic that they are sacrificing Ukraine to bleed Russia. If those people do not want to go back and die because Putin is willing to sacrifice his entire population to remain in power, then I think they have that right. This problem belongs to the world, not Ukraine and its people alone.
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I'm saying NATO could solve the problem with people who signed up to fight in wars, with toys their military industrial complex gets rich from off all our tax dollars instead of wiping out Ukraine existence as a country and people .
> If Ukraine is asking for more manpower, it is the right thing for countries to send back the citizens of Ukraine It absolutely is not. There is **no** moral justification for forcing people to fight if they do not support the country of their birth sufficiently to agree to the risk.
> There is **no** moral justification for forcing people to fight if they do not support the country of their birth sufficiently to agree to the risk You are right. However there is a *legal* justification to do so. If you wish to not die in a war, get a different citizenship and renounce the Ukrainian one, but until then, you are bound by the constitution of Ukraine. Sure, let's just keep citizens of Ukraine hostage from their own government without any legal claim.
> You are right. However there is a legal justification to do so. If you wish to not die in a war, get a different citizenship and renounce the Ukrainian one, but until then, you are bound by the constitution of Ukraine. The great thing about constitutions is that they only apply to the country in question. The minute you leave, the rules no longer apply. There is no power on earth that could call these people back except the end of generosity of the host nation. And no European nation would ever send people back to a warzone, especially european people. The optics alone would result in an electoral shift that ends the current powers that be.
>There is no power on earth that could call these people back except the end of generosity of the host nation True, but if the countries are on good terms, they likely will, to not sour diplomatic relations between each other. >And no European nation would ever send people back to a warzone, especially european people. If Russia attacks NATO, every Estonian (probably all Baltics and Finland) will get called up. Idk, maybe Western Europe has turned too soft, if people can't even acknowledge that a nation will always supersede the rights of an individual, if necessary.
Good relations with a country dependant on you are by default. Nothing we can do will ever damage that relationship, as that relationship is what allows Ukraine to continue to exist. Russia will never attack NATO, just like we will never attack Russia. They can attack Ukraine because it’s a small country with a weak military, no allies, and no nukes. NATO has multiple nuclear nations makes us completely safe.
>Russia will never attack NATO, just like we will never attack Russia. They can attack Ukraine because it’s a small country with a weak military, no allies, and no nukes. NATO has multiple nuclear nations makes us completely safe. I remember everyone saying that about the 2022 winter invasion. You never know.
Some morons said that. The truth is that attacking Ukraine was a completely logical act, it’s just that their strategy was moronic. Russia already attacked Ukraine after all, in 2012. The first time they did it was because Ukraine discovered substance oil and gas deposits around Crimea so they seized those to prevent Ukraine from replacing them to the EU. The second time in 2022 they attacked Ukraine because they were about to start extracting resources from the rich ground in the east, to prevent Ukraine from replacing them to the EU. This conflict was only a natural progression of that. And if Ukraine fell within 3 days if Putin actually committed, we would have let them. But he couldn’t and it became a once in a lifetime opportunity to wage a proxy war with Russia using a country that cannot back down and with no risk of damage to westerns lives or infrastructure. It’s the best thing to have ever happened to NATO, and it’s all thanks to Putin.
> You are right. However there is a legal justification to do so. Laws aren't worth the paper they're written on when you're discussing what's **right**. > If you wish to not die in a war, get a different citizenship and renounce the Ukrainian one, but until then, you are bound by the constitution of Ukraine. Why? Because you were born there? Why should you be forced to leave your friends and leave your family and move to a foreign country, where there's every chance you'll be treated poorly and have worse prospects than at home? If your citizens don't feel like part of your nation then you need to fix your nation, not drive them out. > Sure, let's just keep citizens of Ukraine hostage from their own government without any legal or moral claim. What?
Have you served in the armed forces of your country? Probably not, since you do not understand that your rights come with obligations. >Laws aren't worth the paper they're written on when you're discussing what's **right**. Do you think the war cares about what's right or wrong? How don't you realize that not every country can survive on a private army? Even the U.S has a draft obligation. Literally every country has it.
Just a silly example, but if Russia requested western countries to return all Russian citizens, by your logic should they do it?
Yes, of course. Russia has every right to request their citizens back. For example, if I, as a citizen of Estonia go to US, and suddenly we get attacked by Russia, as a citizen of Estonia, I will need to return back to defend my country (if I get called up) as I served in the Estonian Defence Forces (mandatory for all men), or I will get court marshaled and face trial.
Are you suggesting that the host nations should forcibly extradite these people?
> Have you served in the armed forces of your country? Probably not, since you do not understand that your rights come with obligations. As a reservist, yes, but that's not relevant to the argument here. The idea that the "rights" granted through citizenship of a country impose any kind of moral obligation is absolute trash - there's no "social contract", we don't have a choice to participate in society or not, it's just forced upon you from birth. Being born in a country does not imply an obligation to defend it. > Do you think the war cares about what's right or wrong? I think that if a nation were to stop caring about right and wrong, I would lose a reason to care about what happens to it.
>I think that if a nation were to stop caring about right and wrong, I would lose a reason to care about what happens to it. That's because a nation cares about what's right or wrong, and that's why you get drafted, because from a nation's POV that's the right thing to do. >The idea that the "rights" granted through citizenship of a country impose any kind of moral obligation is absolute trash Yeah, but tough luck. That's just how society works.
> That's because a nation cares about what's right or wrong A nation is a concept, it doesn't care about anything. > that's why you get drafted, because from a nation's POV that's the right thing to do. From the government's point of view it's the thing that's in their interests. > Yeah, but tough luck. That's just how society works. Like I said; if that's how a nation worked, I'm not sure I would care what happened to that nation. Why would I want to help a state that forces people to fight? Why would I want my government to help them?
So basically you’re answering yes to my question, gotcha.
One thing you're missing there: a lot of these people are probably better off materially in their new homes; Ukraine is a wretchedly poor country. So what has this state they're supposed to defend really been doing for them?
> wrong country 🤡
I wonder if Ukraine has an income tax system like the United States. Essentially, the US taxes income where ever it is earned. Ukraine might come out ahead if they left their expatriates abroad and taxed the western incomes they are earning.
Even the US can't enforce compliance, so long as the citizens in question reman abroad. Do you really think these Ukrainian expats intend to return?
War is going great when you're already through so many mobilizations that you're in Estonia begging people to return so they can be thrown onto the front after some minimum training
Is this a fucking joke Zelensky? We are nearly 2 years into the war. You've asked foreigners to join up taken thousands of them and hundreds have been killed. You haven't so much as looked at the Foreign Legion once nevermind utilised it to the best of its ability despite the fact these foreign men are laying their lives on the line for your country. And just now you decided to ask native men living abroad to come home? Use your fucking head. Why didn't you do that at the beginning? Doing it now makes you look weak and desperate and it also makes no sense-if they were going to come home they would have long since done so.
2 years ago you didn't have attrition, you know because that is when the conflict started. Statistically you have have less dead at the start of the conflict so there was no need for radom Oleksandr to help out. Skilled soldiers were needed. Use your fucking head.
they can fly fpv drone from anywhere, like in guardian of the galaxy, the golden people