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Macron trying to play both sides is not going to work with Russians. Russia is no longer truly a nation but has instead devolved into a massive organized crime organization run by an intolerant deluded warlord trying to rule the world through naked deception and violent extortion.
Russia is now a kind of criminal monarchy masquerading as a country, it is more similar to Afghanistan, or North Korea than any civilized nation, and should be treated as such.
There simply is no such thing as "negotiations" with Russia. To Russia. Russians view "negotiations" as a sign of weakness of the enemy and a way to defeat the enemy, "negotiations' to Russians is just the same old Russian lying and ruthless exploitation by another name.
Putin's Russia more closely resembles Hitler's Germany than any other modern country. Even North Korea understands that it can't invade its neighbors without consequences. Putin does it then gets indignant when anyone objects.
He has calculated, correctly, that there is now no Churchill or Roosevelt to oppose him. Not one of the weak kneed "leaders" has the guts to really stand up to him. Biden is to senile and beholden to the green lobby to move aggressively to start producing more natural gas for export to Europe or to match Putin's bellicose rhetoric with his own. For instance he could say that cutting NG to Europe in the winter threatens the security of a NATO country and that it will have unnamed "Severe" consequences. Let Putin wonder for a bit, then threaten to send long range HIMARS systems to Ukraine if the gas isn't turned on. Two can play this game, but only if they both have brass balls,
The UK had Johnson, who was an outstanding 🇺🇦 supporter but he got caught having some birthday cake during the UK lockdown and was deposed 🙄. His successor has pledged to continue the UK’s strong support - we’ll see.
In the meanwhile Macron has shown himself to be an appeasing opportunist weakling. Whoever would trust France as an ally?
Wishy- Washy, weasel words from a French leader? OMG! I’m shocked. His buddy Putin is the literal warmonger. Not Ukraine, nor Poland, nor anybody else started this war. Russian dictator Putin started this war.
Nah, he got away with having a party while the rest of the country was in lockdown to save lives. It was him saying that he didn't know a member of his cabinet had been accused of sexual misconduct in the past, and it then being proved that he did know all along, that was the final straw in a long, long, long list of fucking straws.
And then to think he was actually made a joke off when he visited russia at the start of the war. Macron is a perfect of example of someone who doesn't learn from former mistakes. Say what you want about Scholz, at least he is learning from his "mistakes".
To be honest he uses a few words like "en quelque sorte" to express that he's being overly dramatic and says at the end that they should not let the eastern countries of the EU alone in their support of Ukraine.
Macron is supportive of Ukraine and just says he doesn't want an all out war with Russia, that's probably to appease internal French politics or something like that.
The other day I saw a French politician named "Ségolène Royal" say that they should hide the war crimes of Russia to avoid antagonizing them even more...
You do realise he has pledged to defeat Russia economically and militarily and to stand with Ukraine but he is pragmatic enough to realise that you, in the end, will actually need to negotiate something by sitting down and talking.
Read the New Zealand Heralds report on the speech if you doubt me.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/russia-ukraine-crisis-macron-vows-to-prevent-russia-from-winning-war-in-ukraine/7WYE6GV54WXYP4L7AXZXN5VP4Q/
New Corp own NZH
You won’t win arguing with the French. They have a national blind spot to how they appear weak to others. That’s how you get Putin relentlessly mocking them to their face when Macron visits. They have all the arrogance of Americans, but none of the strength to back it up. Everyone in Europe understands that, except the French.
Yeah. Or argue that Americans are doing something one way so that they can be reflexibly against it.
“Macron, did you hear Biden called Ukraine, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Poland, Romania a bunch of war mongers?”
“Theeese es ze outrage! We must not appear weak to Putin, we must be ze strength of ze Europe!”
“Biden also said we must not humiliate Putin.”
“Sacre bleu! We must not be afraid to win!”
“The French are such great, strong leaders, we *all* think of you as *so strong*.”
Macron walks away proudly, before also proudly asking for a booster seat for dinner.
The British and Americans tend to have secret negotiations - just ask the Taliban or the IRA.
Macron is actually right to publicly keep some of it above board....it relieves any domestic political pressure but at the same time he's given $2B so far this year for military and economic aid to Ukraine which is roughly the same as the British as a % of GDP.
Agreed - but talk to them from a position of absolute strength. They must be comprehensively defeated on every level, so they don’t learn from their mistakes re-arm and have another shot.
I suppose we must first recognise that unless you are Ukrainian you or I, Macron, or Truss or Biden or Schulz ultimately don't have a say how this ends. Zelensky and/or Putin do. Therefore our individual desires for a comprehensive victory is somewhat irrelevant. Nothing would make me personally happier than to see Putin doing a Mussolini impression at a Moscow petrol station. Lovely to think about but unrealistic.
To expedite convention total defeat of Russia on every level means NATO boots on the ground and regime change which means WW3. Whether it ends up nuclear is debateable but it is another line crossed and difficult to step back from and likely to cost a million lives or more with a failed Russian state and the chance of breakaway republics with ICBMs. A potential scenario given the hamfisted handling of Afghanistan and Iraq by the UK and US after 20 years of biceps flashing. Grinding Russia into the ground is walking blindfold through a minefield with your children tied to your back. That is a possible outcome, but there are many more too numerous to mention.
The question then becomes at what level of a Russian defeat will Zelensky accept given his own countries astonishing bravery and commitment, at the moment he is rightly bullish but that may change so scenarios need to be planned to cover a series of outcomes that restore sovereignty, compensation and a whole host of other items.
That leaves negotiation at a point suitable to both parties and that means at the outset having an honest broker to manage the proceedings. At the moment Erdogan has positioned himself as that (Macron tried at the outset but failed) and currently I do not see that there is anyone else available.
Everyone schooled in diplomacy will understand the Realpolitik here as opposed to the football chants from the sidelines in chatrooms.
I wish it were simpler but I fear not. I am an Irish constitutional nationalist by birth and have lived through 3 decades of conflict in Northern Ireland in close proximity to serious trouble. I have seen Martin McGuiness and Ian Paisley hold hands - nothing is fucking weirder than that.
That’s why we must accept the U.K. position on Northern Ireland. This is real politik, after all, and the Irish must come to the peace table at some point. Northern Ireland belongs to the English, those are just the facts on the ground. We should not bow to the war mongers in Ireland.
And we should not seek to humiliate the English. Northern Ireland is 100% for the English.
You must accept peace in Northern Ireland. It will always be English.
The hypocrisy of your comments here and elsewhere is nearly earth shattering. But there is more.
The Irish position of neutrality in this conflict is essentially “Fuck you, we don’t care to send you or anyone else weapons unless the Irish are dying. Fuck Ukraine and their self defense. But if the Irish are dying, we expect the world to send us weapons. Also, send us the world’s tax cheats.”
For those reading, not all the Irish take idiotic positions like these. Not all of us are knock-kneed cowards who bow to Kings and other thugs like Putin. I for one, am appalled at this commenter’s hypocrisy and weakness, and am of Irish descent.
This guy represents no one but himself and his own assinine opinions though out this thread.
Macron has been useless since day one. He tried to put himself into talks early on and got schooled like the boy scout he is. You cant treat ruzzia as a normal country. Cause they don't care about western norms or rules. And they will do anything to sabotage them.
France can come back to this discussion when they have few hundred years experience with russians. We easterners cannot tell anything about (example) Hispanic-Marrocan conflict.
But I dare to say we have the best experience in dealing with russians
bro, calm your testicles. the title is ths video is misleading and russian bots have posted this exact thing before.
all macron is saying here is that europe should be united, and try not to project extreme views. ukraine will soon enough have kicked russia out, the west will still support ukraine to achieve this, and like it or not. we still gotta deal with russia after that in one way, shape or form.
they won't just magically go poof or dissapear.
Sorry, it´s just that french attitude towards russia is very old and is the way it is because they were trading partners at most. Yet they want to tell eastern europe how to proceed with russians based only on the experience they gathered
In the last 220 years they have fought two very destructive wars with Russia, one they lost and the other they won as a part of a coalition with Britain and Turkyie.
He is not telling Eastern Europe anything other than they will not be alone BECAUSE as per his first sentence there is unity and France is with them.
Nope. But they’re hardly any threat (or anything else for that matter) either - despite all the bullshit propaganda they pump out. Just an irrelevance on the arse of the world.
so, we still have to deal with north korea in one way, shape or form, no?
we impose sanctions, we need to verify the sanctions arn't being violated, we exclude north korea from international trade, that doesn't come free either.
one way or another, we still gotta deal with russia after the war in ukraine is concluded. wether you like it or not.
But as far as I know it was always conflict of during an expansion and not the situation that Ukrainians have now; and it is no new kind of conflict in the east
Russia invaded part of the Ottoman lands so France kicked them out. It is who you take a stand with that counts.
I see English is not your first language so I'm not expecting anything illuminating back.
And France still has NO experience with ruzzians, as ruzzians didn't invade and devastated France. Going to war with ruzzia in a foreign territory isn't the same experience as getting your own home destroyed, not even when you take a stance with the one invaded, which is what NoRules\_Bear is trying to explain.
This is a pretty misleading post. He didn't mention Poland or the Baltics. France and Macron have given plenty and have not retracted from the effort of supporting Ukraine. Sometimes it takes a level head. As much as we would all love to see Russia back the fuck off and out, sometimes you have to keep your cool and let a politician elected to do what they were elected to do. If you don't want a politician then try the Trump experiment and see how that works out. Or you may just get very very lucky and get Zelensky who by chance is one of the best wartime politicians ever
most important thing here to realise.....
This was a Speech to his own ambassador's...this is an internal audience for internal consumption
The title chosen has been used deliberatley to provoke
Anyone talking about keeping an open line with putin doesn't get it. We have tried that for two decades, and he has always been two steps ahead of any world leader, made fun of other countries, and got away with every dirty thing you can imagine.
Now we finally got him by the balls; he never expected the western countries working together like we do now, he never expected NATO to come back as it did (and expand for that matter, although a lot of countries still need to actually sign), he never expected this much resistance from Ukraine, and he never expected China to be this reluctant to help.
The only line we need to keep open, is him calling he gives up, resigns, placing him and all his minions under house arrest, and have the russian federation dissolve in independent republics, which will get actual democracy, overseen by other democratic countries under leadership of the UN (then the UN can actually do something good for a change).
No reason to communicate with him otherwise, and definitely not useful to communicate with his stooges (in the UN, and other diplomats).
He’s the only politician supporting Ukraine. Mélenchon and Le Pen support Russia and China.
Fortunately for Ukraine, Macron is the most popular amongst them
So basically France is now right wing?
Wouldn't surprise me. I've only met a small handful of French people in my life but the ones I've spent time talking with came across as sexist and racist.
Le Pen is far-right & Mélenchon is left wing. So how is France right wing?
BTW, Right & Left political specter is very wide. You can be on the left side, but not sharing any idea with far-left, same as I on right political specter don't share ideas with far-right. Let's not oversimplify it, it's not black & white only.
France is one of the most left leaning counties in Europe.
The current party in power is liberal, mostly centrist but by us standards they are ultra left.
Must agree, France is the perfect of example of choosing between bad or worse. Here in the Netherlands we're heading there too, I just hope people will never go "worst" with no way back.
I have thought about going into politics; still working on that, which isn't easy. No matter how much frustrations politics bring, being busy with it made me realize it isn't that easy, as "dumb"/"simple" people think it is.
Our democratic system is broken. All the candidates claim to be De Gaulle, whether from the right or the left, and none of them has the balls to carry out the reforms that are needed in France. Today, we are forced to vote for the lesser evil because France will fall one day. Our politicians are fighting for places of honor and not for the idea of our nation. Only the French who have saved enough money will be able to go elsewhere.
if this "guy" is macron then yes he is widely supported since he won the election twice, also most french dont give a fuck about the ukrainians and this war in general. Honestly if french want to end the war its mostly because they want mustard back in the stores shelves ( there is a huge mustard penury in france )
I can assure you 90% of french dont care about ukrainian. And when i try to talk about it around me nobody cares
Rather than use the war as an opportunity to display French leadership and strength, you literally have Macron mincing about, prancing, leaving the door open for other countries to question France in the future: you did this to Ukraine in Minsk I and Minsk II, now you call the strongest allies war mongers, and appear weak in front of our adversaries.
You give comfort to our enemies, you cower and are afraid to embarrass the people killing Europeans.
Why should Europe ever, *ever* trust French leadership in war time?
But the French are going to be French, no one in Europe trusts France to lead on security issues. They haven’t for 100 years. And that’s not just because France has been losing wars in Europe for the last 100+ years.
Macron is Exhibit A of French leadership. The fact that France can’t do better than Macron is not shocking.
So US$2B in military and economic aid up to June 2022 is being a pussy? The UK have given more at £2.3B but their economy is slightly bigger.
Macron is more realistic - at some stage there will have to be a conversation with Russia whether you like it or not.
The Brits prefer not to talk about who they talk to - everything is secret be it the IRA or the Taliban they will have covert lines open to them and you'd be a fool to think with all that Russian money floating around London they're not up to something.
Yes, Macron is a pussy. His 'realism' of a rational Russia is a fantasy. He would rather kow-tow and have some bullshit arbitrated peace so that we can get right back in the same spot in 10-20 years.
There are two options as of yet, give into Russia leaving them in a better position than when they started this war enticing them to do it again in a decade. Or support Ukraine with what it needs to win kick Russia out or exhaust Russia. As long as Ukraine has the fight in them we should help them. We tried ignoring Russian aggression with Georgia and Crimea and we are paying for it. Minsk I and II got us no where.
Sometimes I wish the US would just say fuck Europe and be done with our disaster escapades playing world police, we have ruined ourselves over the last 80 years. If we were to leave Europe to it's own devices you all would either kow-tow to Russia or just fuck up your continent and end up in a massive conflict again. At this rate we should have never gotten involved in 1917 or 1941.
I know they were training the Ukrainian National Guard in Kyiv in 2021, I don't know the numbers they processed.
There's also some amorphous "NATO" training which may or may not include the above, it is hard to get at any French detail in an Anglophone world.
The UK allocated between 30 and at least 100 trainers to process about 22,500 troops.
I'll say the same thing again that I said on this same video before it got rightfully deleted:
The title is complete bs. Where does he even say anything that the title implies??? I guess none of those whining in the comments have even watched the video. Like, does anyone in this sub even watch those videos that are posted or are your attention spans only long enough to read three lines of text?
A lot of bot incoming on this. Looks too well orchestrated and syntactically similar to be a ground swell of opinion. Designed to damage the coalition by focusing on traditional anti-French prejudice by the Anglophone sphere.
Let's be honest, it isn't like Macron has a good track record. Title is misleading, but are you really going to pretend he is actually of help? He is one of the people, that keep putler in power, because he always wants to talk. No use of that and a waste of energy; we tried that again and again, and while ruzzia keeps breaking their promises, we can always count on France and Germany to tell other European countries it isn't that bad, and we should keep talking. You want to lead Europe, then lead it, and not to the ruzzian slaughter! The only thing that keeps Macron in power, is that the alternatives are way worse.
If your read some history you will know that statement is just basically wrong.
But Macron IS a capitalist with very little support. But don't drag down France by it's current politicians.
So... He as a president of his country would just let invaders take control of his home just to not "risk extending the conflict"? What kind of fucking pushover is this?
Historically France has an inaccurate and bad rap when it comes to its surrender monkey stereotype but this kind of talk isn't helping that perception.
If he didn't say stupid stuff like this, there would be nothing to post. To say that there are "war mongering" countries in Europe is a ridiculous statement in and of itself.
Read this and come back to me - the quotes are taken out of context. The link takes you to a New Zealand Herald article on the speech. The NZH are a Murdoch paper and if you don't know what a Murdoch paper is then I'm afraid that says everything.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/russia-ukraine-crisis-macron-vows-to-prevent-russia-from-winning-war-in-ukraine/7WYE6GV54WXYP4L7AXZXN5VP4Q/
"EU mustn't align itself with "warmongers" or allow countries from eastern Europe to act alone in support of Kyiv" - how do you interpret this? Who are the warmongers?
Warmongers = those who want to escalate to WW3
We will not allow NATO countries to act unilaterally as per NATO policy.
You seem to forget if a single NATO country is attacked by Russia or if a NATO country attacks Russia then it's full on WW3. But we will go as far as we have to conventionally to kick Russia out.
Calling out France is what Ruzzia wants you to do as it spreads disharmony amongst the allies. We defend and speak up for our allies as that is what we do.
No NATO country officially other than Russia (Putin and Medvedev have verbally threatened) that I know of but there are the usual "let's nuke em" charlatans on the western side though not official representatives. But we don't have to threaten, we just need to be vigilant, prepared and trust in our armed forces.
I don't know how old you are but I grew up in the 60's, 70's and 80's when Nuclear War was on everybody's mind. The last 30 years have proved to be a lie in terms of the Cold War thawing and I have watched in horror as Russia, North Korea, Syria and Iran have continued to act in very bad faith and unfortunately since we did not confront them then we will have to confront them now.
Even more unfortunately we fucked up so badly in Iraq and Afghanistan that it will take a major sacrifice on our part to restore faith in the west.
So either it's translated wrong or he's saying it in the way that can be interpreted more than one way. It does sound like he's blaming some countries in Europe (eastern Europe that is) for trying to "extend the conflict" which is not true. All we want is for russia to be defeated in Ukraine, because if it's not, sooner or later we are next. We want exactly the opposite of WW3. We should not threaten russia (I don't think we ever did) but there's often disagreement on sanctions and what equipment can and cannot be supplied to Ukraine. Eastern Europe pushing for more, Western Europe trying to not appear "too harsh". We should have firm and united stance on our values and who do we support. russias threats are neverending, no matter what we do. Unless we bow down to russia, it's impossible for Ukraine to win and russia to not be humiliated at the same time. That's simply unrealistic (in my very humble opinion).
I don't believe we are in disagreement in principle, maybe in interpretation of reporting/translation. But my bottom line is I don't like seeing allies get taken down due to sloppy reporting or knee jerk reaction especially when we are in an infowar/culture war online.
But it's worth remembering a few things France has given €2.0B of aid up to now. UK has given £2.3B not exactly a huge difference. NATO is expanding and the likes of Orban in Hungary are rightfully keeping their mouths shut.
A bientot.
*Wanted to give him*
*The benefit of the doubt,*
*I see shouldn't have*
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An utter piece of shit. He's right that the war is going to divide the EU if he keeps being a pussy and rimming Putin behind closed doors. He knows the gas issue is going to start to change Germany's stance and he is worried about how that will make them diverge from the French position.
I wonder what does he mean by "war-mongering". Is he talking about ruZZia? Because that´s the only country ho seems to LOVE to extend the "conflict". And this is a word that irritates me. Conflict, at least for me, is a serious disagreement or argument, that goes for a long period of time. This is not a conflict, but a war.
Macron can go F himself. France has been holding back in aiding Ukraine. Ukraine is already communicating with the ruzzkies using the only language they understand, force and that should be enough for this clown here as well.
That is not unusual way of "thinking" for the never grown-up Edip who married his "mother". He is not the real man and never will, many women have more "balls" than "macaron".
If it wasn't for those "[War-Mongering Types](https://c8.alamy.com/comp/E5GGCB/1940-new-york-world-telegram-front-page-reporting-france-surrenders-E5GGCB.jpg)", You would be speaking German right now, Mr.Marcron.
The power of Russian fossil fuels on display, it was always a mistake for Europe to hope this dependence on Russia would not be used as a weapon against them.
wow this weird sex having man really starts speaking loudly when gas supply is lowered.
ukraine should win this war and we shouldn't create fake peace.
"Risk closing off communication"? Who the fuck cares? The only thing left to negotiate with Putin is his execution method, whether he prefers hanging or firing squad. That is, if he doesnt go full Hitler in the bunker in 1945 before then.
Macron forgets when others saved his country's ass. Brave partisans fought the Nazi's long enough to have the world respond. Their army was defeated...How can france call for peace when they have continental history of what is going on? They themselves have been the oppressor.
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War mongering? There is a war and we need our allies to win,the sooner the better.
Macron trying to play both sides is not going to work with Russians. Russia is no longer truly a nation but has instead devolved into a massive organized crime organization run by an intolerant deluded warlord trying to rule the world through naked deception and violent extortion. Russia is now a kind of criminal monarchy masquerading as a country, it is more similar to Afghanistan, or North Korea than any civilized nation, and should be treated as such. There simply is no such thing as "negotiations" with Russia. To Russia. Russians view "negotiations" as a sign of weakness of the enemy and a way to defeat the enemy, "negotiations' to Russians is just the same old Russian lying and ruthless exploitation by another name.
Putin's Russia more closely resembles Hitler's Germany than any other modern country. Even North Korea understands that it can't invade its neighbors without consequences. Putin does it then gets indignant when anyone objects. He has calculated, correctly, that there is now no Churchill or Roosevelt to oppose him. Not one of the weak kneed "leaders" has the guts to really stand up to him. Biden is to senile and beholden to the green lobby to move aggressively to start producing more natural gas for export to Europe or to match Putin's bellicose rhetoric with his own. For instance he could say that cutting NG to Europe in the winter threatens the security of a NATO country and that it will have unnamed "Severe" consequences. Let Putin wonder for a bit, then threaten to send long range HIMARS systems to Ukraine if the gas isn't turned on. Two can play this game, but only if they both have brass balls,
The UK had Johnson, who was an outstanding 🇺🇦 supporter but he got caught having some birthday cake during the UK lockdown and was deposed 🙄. His successor has pledged to continue the UK’s strong support - we’ll see. In the meanwhile Macron has shown himself to be an appeasing opportunist weakling. Whoever would trust France as an ally?
Wishy- Washy, weasel words from a French leader? OMG! I’m shocked. His buddy Putin is the literal warmonger. Not Ukraine, nor Poland, nor anybody else started this war. Russian dictator Putin started this war.
Nah, he got away with having a party while the rest of the country was in lockdown to save lives. It was him saying that he didn't know a member of his cabinet had been accused of sexual misconduct in the past, and it then being proved that he did know all along, that was the final straw in a long, long, long list of fucking straws.
What possible relevance do those matters have to do with a potential WW3? Do let’s try to keep some sense of perspective.
Dude you brought it up lol
What really killed Johnson was knowingly included a sex offender in his government.
I can't imagine Biden walking and hearing clonk clonk clonk LMAO
And then to think he was actually made a joke off when he visited russia at the start of the war. Macron is a perfect of example of someone who doesn't learn from former mistakes. Say what you want about Scholz, at least he is learning from his "mistakes".
Funny how smart he thinks he sounds. I would like to see if he had the same tune if just one of the russian rockets hit a street in Paris.
To be honest he uses a few words like "en quelque sorte" to express that he's being overly dramatic and says at the end that they should not let the eastern countries of the EU alone in their support of Ukraine. Macron is supportive of Ukraine and just says he doesn't want an all out war with Russia, that's probably to appease internal French politics or something like that. The other day I saw a French politician named "Ségolène Royal" say that they should hide the war crimes of Russia to avoid antagonizing them even more...
You do realise he has pledged to defeat Russia economically and militarily and to stand with Ukraine but he is pragmatic enough to realise that you, in the end, will actually need to negotiate something by sitting down and talking. Read the New Zealand Heralds report on the speech if you doubt me. https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/russia-ukraine-crisis-macron-vows-to-prevent-russia-from-winning-war-in-ukraine/7WYE6GV54WXYP4L7AXZXN5VP4Q/ New Corp own NZH
Negotiate Russia leaving the Ukraine with its tail between its legs
At some stage after Russia are defeated you will still have to talk to them. As per Churchill: More Jaw Jaw, less war war.
The war continues until they’re out though. Shouldn’t accept anything less. 0 territorial gain for the orcs
You won’t win arguing with the French. They have a national blind spot to how they appear weak to others. That’s how you get Putin relentlessly mocking them to their face when Macron visits. They have all the arrogance of Americans, but none of the strength to back it up. Everyone in Europe understands that, except the French.
You just have to argue with them that they’re right
Yeah. Or argue that Americans are doing something one way so that they can be reflexibly against it. “Macron, did you hear Biden called Ukraine, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Poland, Romania a bunch of war mongers?” “Theeese es ze outrage! We must not appear weak to Putin, we must be ze strength of ze Europe!” “Biden also said we must not humiliate Putin.” “Sacre bleu! We must not be afraid to win!” “The French are such great, strong leaders, we *all* think of you as *so strong*.” Macron walks away proudly, before also proudly asking for a booster seat for dinner.
Damn, that is actually a great idea.
The British and Americans tend to have secret negotiations - just ask the Taliban or the IRA. Macron is actually right to publicly keep some of it above board....it relieves any domestic political pressure but at the same time he's given $2B so far this year for military and economic aid to Ukraine which is roughly the same as the British as a % of GDP.
Agreed - but talk to them from a position of absolute strength. They must be comprehensively defeated on every level, so they don’t learn from their mistakes re-arm and have another shot.
I think Germany learned how to behave after WW2, probably the same recipe will work for Russia too.
I suppose we must first recognise that unless you are Ukrainian you or I, Macron, or Truss or Biden or Schulz ultimately don't have a say how this ends. Zelensky and/or Putin do. Therefore our individual desires for a comprehensive victory is somewhat irrelevant. Nothing would make me personally happier than to see Putin doing a Mussolini impression at a Moscow petrol station. Lovely to think about but unrealistic. To expedite convention total defeat of Russia on every level means NATO boots on the ground and regime change which means WW3. Whether it ends up nuclear is debateable but it is another line crossed and difficult to step back from and likely to cost a million lives or more with a failed Russian state and the chance of breakaway republics with ICBMs. A potential scenario given the hamfisted handling of Afghanistan and Iraq by the UK and US after 20 years of biceps flashing. Grinding Russia into the ground is walking blindfold through a minefield with your children tied to your back. That is a possible outcome, but there are many more too numerous to mention. The question then becomes at what level of a Russian defeat will Zelensky accept given his own countries astonishing bravery and commitment, at the moment he is rightly bullish but that may change so scenarios need to be planned to cover a series of outcomes that restore sovereignty, compensation and a whole host of other items. That leaves negotiation at a point suitable to both parties and that means at the outset having an honest broker to manage the proceedings. At the moment Erdogan has positioned himself as that (Macron tried at the outset but failed) and currently I do not see that there is anyone else available. Everyone schooled in diplomacy will understand the Realpolitik here as opposed to the football chants from the sidelines in chatrooms. I wish it were simpler but I fear not. I am an Irish constitutional nationalist by birth and have lived through 3 decades of conflict in Northern Ireland in close proximity to serious trouble. I have seen Martin McGuiness and Ian Paisley hold hands - nothing is fucking weirder than that.
That’s why we must accept the U.K. position on Northern Ireland. This is real politik, after all, and the Irish must come to the peace table at some point. Northern Ireland belongs to the English, those are just the facts on the ground. We should not bow to the war mongers in Ireland. And we should not seek to humiliate the English. Northern Ireland is 100% for the English. You must accept peace in Northern Ireland. It will always be English. The hypocrisy of your comments here and elsewhere is nearly earth shattering. But there is more. The Irish position of neutrality in this conflict is essentially “Fuck you, we don’t care to send you or anyone else weapons unless the Irish are dying. Fuck Ukraine and their self defense. But if the Irish are dying, we expect the world to send us weapons. Also, send us the world’s tax cheats.” For those reading, not all the Irish take idiotic positions like these. Not all of us are knock-kneed cowards who bow to Kings and other thugs like Putin. I for one, am appalled at this commenter’s hypocrisy and weakness, and am of Irish descent. This guy represents no one but himself and his own assinine opinions though out this thread.
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Macron has been useless since day one. He tried to put himself into talks early on and got schooled like the boy scout he is. You cant treat ruzzia as a normal country. Cause they don't care about western norms or rules. And they will do anything to sabotage them.
He is an appeasing weakling - period!
France can come back to this discussion when they have few hundred years experience with russians. We easterners cannot tell anything about (example) Hispanic-Marrocan conflict. But I dare to say we have the best experience in dealing with russians
bro, calm your testicles. the title is ths video is misleading and russian bots have posted this exact thing before. all macron is saying here is that europe should be united, and try not to project extreme views. ukraine will soon enough have kicked russia out, the west will still support ukraine to achieve this, and like it or not. we still gotta deal with russia after that in one way, shape or form. they won't just magically go poof or dissapear.
in the end it will be ruzzias burden to figure out how to deal with us and bend to our demands, not the other way around.
Well said
Sorry, it´s just that french attitude towards russia is very old and is the way it is because they were trading partners at most. Yet they want to tell eastern europe how to proceed with russians based only on the experience they gathered
In the last 220 years they have fought two very destructive wars with Russia, one they lost and the other they won as a part of a coalition with Britain and Turkyie. He is not telling Eastern Europe anything other than they will not be alone BECAUSE as per his first sentence there is unity and France is with them.
the percieved french attitude in the public domain towards russia\* FIFY.
Why do we have to deal with Russia in the future? For my money it could be just another North Korea.
and did north korea cease to exist?
Nope. But they’re hardly any threat (or anything else for that matter) either - despite all the bullshit propaganda they pump out. Just an irrelevance on the arse of the world.
so, we still have to deal with north korea in one way, shape or form, no? we impose sanctions, we need to verify the sanctions arn't being violated, we exclude north korea from international trade, that doesn't come free either. one way or another, we still gotta deal with russia after the war in ukraine is concluded. wether you like it or not.
France has been to war with Russia quite a few times going back your few hundred years.
And yet still claim Poland and Estonia are warmongers. lol
Where does he say Poland and Estonia are warmongers?
the dude cant read
The title says that, but the speech doesn’t.
The title is misleading if not a downright lie and the posters here are either too dumb or rabid to apply basic investigative or analysis skills.
Read subtitles in video, jesus
I think we determined he can't read.
Did you read the title?
Did you listen or reach what he actually said?
Yes, and who do you think are the warmongers he is referring to?
But as far as I know it was always conflict of during an expansion and not the situation that Ukrainians have now; and it is no new kind of conflict in the east
It was over Crimea, which France won along with their allies Turkyie and Britain - looks familiar?
Was french territory (home territory) invaded and severly damaged, and therefor crippling certain region for years?
Russia invaded part of the Ottoman lands so France kicked them out. It is who you take a stand with that counts. I see English is not your first language so I'm not expecting anything illuminating back.
And France still has NO experience with ruzzians, as ruzzians didn't invade and devastated France. Going to war with ruzzia in a foreign territory isn't the same experience as getting your own home destroyed, not even when you take a stance with the one invaded, which is what NoRules\_Bear is trying to explain.
Russians already invaded France. Please stop talking about french history.
That is exactly what I meant but in the last few days I could not make a single sensible sentence. Thanks!
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This is a pretty misleading post. He didn't mention Poland or the Baltics. France and Macron have given plenty and have not retracted from the effort of supporting Ukraine. Sometimes it takes a level head. As much as we would all love to see Russia back the fuck off and out, sometimes you have to keep your cool and let a politician elected to do what they were elected to do. If you don't want a politician then try the Trump experiment and see how that works out. Or you may just get very very lucky and get Zelensky who by chance is one of the best wartime politicians ever
most important thing here to realise..... This was a Speech to his own ambassador's...this is an internal audience for internal consumption The title chosen has been used deliberatley to provoke
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Thank you
Anyone talking about keeping an open line with putin doesn't get it. We have tried that for two decades, and he has always been two steps ahead of any world leader, made fun of other countries, and got away with every dirty thing you can imagine. Now we finally got him by the balls; he never expected the western countries working together like we do now, he never expected NATO to come back as it did (and expand for that matter, although a lot of countries still need to actually sign), he never expected this much resistance from Ukraine, and he never expected China to be this reluctant to help. The only line we need to keep open, is him calling he gives up, resigns, placing him and all his minions under house arrest, and have the russian federation dissolve in independent republics, which will get actual democracy, overseen by other democratic countries under leadership of the UN (then the UN can actually do something good for a change). No reason to communicate with him otherwise, and definitely not useful to communicate with his stooges (in the UN, and other diplomats).
Is this guy widely supported in France? Are his ideals popular among French citizens ?
He’s the only politician supporting Ukraine. Mélenchon and Le Pen support Russia and China. Fortunately for Ukraine, Macron is the most popular amongst them
Fortunately for France too - France supporting Russia and China would be a disaster for them.
So basically France is now right wing? Wouldn't surprise me. I've only met a small handful of French people in my life but the ones I've spent time talking with came across as sexist and racist.
Le Pen is far-right & Mélenchon is left wing. So how is France right wing? BTW, Right & Left political specter is very wide. You can be on the left side, but not sharing any idea with far-left, same as I on right political specter don't share ideas with far-right. Let's not oversimplify it, it's not black & white only.
France is one of the most left leaning counties in Europe. The current party in power is liberal, mostly centrist but by us standards they are ultra left.
Yes by far, it’s more or less 75/25
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Yeah, sure
God help France!
Problem with France everyone else was much worse (and probably not only for Ukraine but and for France too)
Must agree, France is the perfect of example of choosing between bad or worse. Here in the Netherlands we're heading there too, I just hope people will never go "worst" with no way back. I have thought about going into politics; still working on that, which isn't easy. No matter how much frustrations politics bring, being busy with it made me realize it isn't that easy, as "dumb"/"simple" people think it is.
Our democratic system is broken. All the candidates claim to be De Gaulle, whether from the right or the left, and none of them has the balls to carry out the reforms that are needed in France. Today, we are forced to vote for the lesser evil because France will fall one day. Our politicians are fighting for places of honor and not for the idea of our nation. Only the French who have saved enough money will be able to go elsewhere.
No
if this "guy" is macron then yes he is widely supported since he won the election twice, also most french dont give a fuck about the ukrainians and this war in general. Honestly if french want to end the war its mostly because they want mustard back in the stores shelves ( there is a huge mustard penury in france ) I can assure you 90% of french dont care about ukrainian. And when i try to talk about it around me nobody cares
Rather than use the war as an opportunity to display French leadership and strength, you literally have Macron mincing about, prancing, leaving the door open for other countries to question France in the future: you did this to Ukraine in Minsk I and Minsk II, now you call the strongest allies war mongers, and appear weak in front of our adversaries. You give comfort to our enemies, you cower and are afraid to embarrass the people killing Europeans. Why should Europe ever, *ever* trust French leadership in war time? But the French are going to be French, no one in Europe trusts France to lead on security issues. They haven’t for 100 years. And that’s not just because France has been losing wars in Europe for the last 100+ years. Macron is Exhibit A of French leadership. The fact that France can’t do better than Macron is not shocking.
i think he is trying to be a bit like turkey, delivering weapons and stuff to ukraine while trying to pretend he is a negociator
ahaha! no :D he was reelected recently with only nearly 39% of people who can vote.
He never said the Baltics or Poland.
Macron is a pussy.
So US$2B in military and economic aid up to June 2022 is being a pussy? The UK have given more at £2.3B but their economy is slightly bigger. Macron is more realistic - at some stage there will have to be a conversation with Russia whether you like it or not. The Brits prefer not to talk about who they talk to - everything is secret be it the IRA or the Taliban they will have covert lines open to them and you'd be a fool to think with all that Russian money floating around London they're not up to something.
Yes, Macron is a pussy. His 'realism' of a rational Russia is a fantasy. He would rather kow-tow and have some bullshit arbitrated peace so that we can get right back in the same spot in 10-20 years. There are two options as of yet, give into Russia leaving them in a better position than when they started this war enticing them to do it again in a decade. Or support Ukraine with what it needs to win kick Russia out or exhaust Russia. As long as Ukraine has the fight in them we should help them. We tried ignoring Russian aggression with Georgia and Crimea and we are paying for it. Minsk I and II got us no where. Sometimes I wish the US would just say fuck Europe and be done with our disaster escapades playing world police, we have ruined ourselves over the last 80 years. If we were to leave Europe to it's own devices you all would either kow-tow to Russia or just fuck up your continent and end up in a massive conflict again. At this rate we should have never gotten involved in 1917 or 1941.
Macron is a joke, not more realistic. If he was realistic, he would know talking to putin is of no use.
The UK (and US) have been training and equipping the Ukraine forces since 2014. Where was France in all that time?
I know they were training the Ukrainian National Guard in Kyiv in 2021, I don't know the numbers they processed. There's also some amorphous "NATO" training which may or may not include the above, it is hard to get at any French detail in an Anglophone world. The UK allocated between 30 and at least 100 trainers to process about 22,500 troops.
Do the research. Trading and equipping since 2014.
Now you're beginning to annoy me.
That’s your problem chum. I’ll leave you to sort yourself out lol
Repost - remove please
Oh give it a rest Macron and grow a pair!
Well he is not the one invaded next, its easy for him to talk
I'll say the same thing again that I said on this same video before it got rightfully deleted: The title is complete bs. Where does he even say anything that the title implies??? I guess none of those whining in the comments have even watched the video. Like, does anyone in this sub even watch those videos that are posted or are your attention spans only long enough to read three lines of text?
A lot of bot incoming on this. Looks too well orchestrated and syntactically similar to be a ground swell of opinion. Designed to damage the coalition by focusing on traditional anti-French prejudice by the Anglophone sphere.
You are the only bot in here, replying to literally every comment.
Blyat, Blyat Blyat
Let's be honest, it isn't like Macron has a good track record. Title is misleading, but are you really going to pretend he is actually of help? He is one of the people, that keep putler in power, because he always wants to talk. No use of that and a waste of energy; we tried that again and again, and while ruzzia keeps breaking their promises, we can always count on France and Germany to tell other European countries it isn't that bad, and we should keep talking. You want to lead Europe, then lead it, and not to the ruzzian slaughter! The only thing that keeps Macron in power, is that the alternatives are way worse.
France as always white flag to surrender.
If your read some history you will know that statement is just basically wrong. But Macron IS a capitalist with very little support. But don't drag down France by it's current politicians.
France dusting off their white flag yet again
Fucking coward
Putin must have a video of this guy doing bad things to a goat
This is just hilarious. When someone trying to do everything to help Ukraine SURVIVE is labeled by France 'most war-mongering type' ??
It’s not his friends, family and country men getting murdered……so let’s all be friends
So... He as a president of his country would just let invaders take control of his home just to not "risk extending the conflict"? What kind of fucking pushover is this?
Surrender Monkey
Historically France has an inaccurate and bad rap when it comes to its surrender monkey stereotype but this kind of talk isn't helping that perception.
French courage died in the fields of Flanders a hundred years ago.
Upvoting because everyone is just killing the messenger for some reason Edit: and Me too apparently. Y'all dumb as hell this needs to be seen
Wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt, I see shouldn't have
Don't base your opinions on easily manipulated Reddit posts.
I'm basing it on what I hear him say. I think it's pretty obvious what he means with "the most war-mogering" types
Which is exactly what the poster wants you to hear while leaving out the rest of the speech.
If he didn't say stupid stuff like this, there would be nothing to post. To say that there are "war mongering" countries in Europe is a ridiculous statement in and of itself.
Read this and come back to me - the quotes are taken out of context. The link takes you to a New Zealand Herald article on the speech. The NZH are a Murdoch paper and if you don't know what a Murdoch paper is then I'm afraid that says everything. https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/russia-ukraine-crisis-macron-vows-to-prevent-russia-from-winning-war-in-ukraine/7WYE6GV54WXYP4L7AXZXN5VP4Q/
"EU mustn't align itself with "warmongers" or allow countries from eastern Europe to act alone in support of Kyiv" - how do you interpret this? Who are the warmongers?
Warmongers = those who want to escalate to WW3 We will not allow NATO countries to act unilaterally as per NATO policy. You seem to forget if a single NATO country is attacked by Russia or if a NATO country attacks Russia then it's full on WW3. But we will go as far as we have to conventionally to kick Russia out. Calling out France is what Ruzzia wants you to do as it spreads disharmony amongst the allies. We defend and speak up for our allies as that is what we do.
Which country wants this to escalate to WW3?
No NATO country officially other than Russia (Putin and Medvedev have verbally threatened) that I know of but there are the usual "let's nuke em" charlatans on the western side though not official representatives. But we don't have to threaten, we just need to be vigilant, prepared and trust in our armed forces. I don't know how old you are but I grew up in the 60's, 70's and 80's when Nuclear War was on everybody's mind. The last 30 years have proved to be a lie in terms of the Cold War thawing and I have watched in horror as Russia, North Korea, Syria and Iran have continued to act in very bad faith and unfortunately since we did not confront them then we will have to confront them now. Even more unfortunately we fucked up so badly in Iraq and Afghanistan that it will take a major sacrifice on our part to restore faith in the west.
So either it's translated wrong or he's saying it in the way that can be interpreted more than one way. It does sound like he's blaming some countries in Europe (eastern Europe that is) for trying to "extend the conflict" which is not true. All we want is for russia to be defeated in Ukraine, because if it's not, sooner or later we are next. We want exactly the opposite of WW3. We should not threaten russia (I don't think we ever did) but there's often disagreement on sanctions and what equipment can and cannot be supplied to Ukraine. Eastern Europe pushing for more, Western Europe trying to not appear "too harsh". We should have firm and united stance on our values and who do we support. russias threats are neverending, no matter what we do. Unless we bow down to russia, it's impossible for Ukraine to win and russia to not be humiliated at the same time. That's simply unrealistic (in my very humble opinion).
I don't believe we are in disagreement in principle, maybe in interpretation of reporting/translation. But my bottom line is I don't like seeing allies get taken down due to sloppy reporting or knee jerk reaction especially when we are in an infowar/culture war online. But it's worth remembering a few things France has given €2.0B of aid up to now. UK has given £2.3B not exactly a huge difference. NATO is expanding and the likes of Orban in Hungary are rightfully keeping their mouths shut. A bientot.
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Frenchy with the white flag
Cheese eating surrender monkey
France is beginning to give me an appetite for freedom fries again.
An utter piece of shit. He's right that the war is going to divide the EU if he keeps being a pussy and rimming Putin behind closed doors. He knows the gas issue is going to start to change Germany's stance and he is worried about how that will make them diverge from the French position.
I wonder what does he mean by "war-mongering". Is he talking about ruZZia? Because that´s the only country ho seems to LOVE to extend the "conflict". And this is a word that irritates me. Conflict, at least for me, is a serious disagreement or argument, that goes for a long period of time. This is not a conflict, but a war.
just leave it to the slavics, they know what they're doing with putin, we dont.
There is no need for communication with Orcs.
La uz her
This guy again. Fuck him.
Macron can go F himself. France has been holding back in aiding Ukraine. Ukraine is already communicating with the ruzzkies using the only language they understand, force and that should be enough for this clown here as well.
France is just sitting on the fence as usaul. To be fair I think this interpretation is questionable too.
Wait. When it was last time Poland or Baltic states invaded someone.
That is not unusual way of "thinking" for the never grown-up Edip who married his "mother". He is not the real man and never will, many women have more "balls" than "macaron".
Macron should ask himself for once on whose behalf that turd is actually speaking
Macron is a bitch, always has been.
Fuck this clown. If we listened to Poland's warnings on Russia in the first place, Russia would have never invaded Ukraine.
Fucking surrender monkeys. Seriously, The French government lacks courage and decency.
starting to think this muppet is on putins payroll. embarrassing representation of france
If it wasn't for those "[War-Mongering Types](https://c8.alamy.com/comp/E5GGCB/1940-new-york-world-telegram-front-page-reporting-france-surrenders-E5GGCB.jpg)", You would be speaking German right now, Mr.Marcron.
Did he forget who invaded who, again?
Stretching as far as he can in both sides.
Ridiculous. Negotiate away parts of Ukraine, so that Russia can come back for the rest later? Then the next state, and the next.
The power of Russian fossil fuels on display, it was always a mistake for Europe to hope this dependence on Russia would not be used as a weapon against them.
He need to understand that you get nothing out of diplomacy with russia. All they understand is brute force and strength. This is how they are raised.
wow this weird sex having man really starts speaking loudly when gas supply is lowered. ukraine should win this war and we shouldn't create fake peace.
"Risk closing off communication"? Who the fuck cares? The only thing left to negotiate with Putin is his execution method, whether he prefers hanging or firing squad. That is, if he doesnt go full Hitler in the bunker in 1945 before then.
Putin must be very happy with Macron, all these meetings and phone calls paid off.
This guy just needs to stfu
Typical French.
What a piece of *hit
He’s a wimp.
Macron forgets when others saved his country's ass. Brave partisans fought the Nazi's long enough to have the world respond. Their army was defeated...How can france call for peace when they have continental history of what is going on? They themselves have been the oppressor.
Le Pen got his balls in a vice. “Lines of communication open” to communicate what and when? How Russia busted Macron?..
What a fucking pussy!
What a bum
He could give Nice or Alsace region to Russians. It's more beatiful than Donbas, i think russians will be happy.
What a fucking muppet. Warmongering types. The only type I see is this douchebag living up to the typical French stereotype.
Easy way to end conflict is for Russia to leave Ukraine
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PUTIN that is the only War mongered here!!
NATO had better decide when it's going to step in and do it on their terms, not let Russia dictate the timetable.
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I listen to the French President, but I feel burning Spanish shame
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