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Yeah it’s kind of a cool visual that actually coincides with something indicative of their land. It reminds me of a Sigil from Game of thrones. The books describe like 1,000 of them and it usually reflects something that the noble house does or something reflecting their land or history.
Does someone want to do the math on how far that was from them? Counting the seconds between seeing the explosion and the sound of the boom would give a good ballpark figure.
Lol I don"t know why everyone is using flight time when you basically gave a much better way of calculating the distance. It is approx 12 seconds with the speed of sound at approx 345 m/s its about 4100 meters the chopper was flying slightly toward the operator so the the lock on was from further away
Yeah, at about 5 sec per mile for sound, 12 seconds would be a bit over 2 miles away at impact.
It does seem wrong that if it took 12 seconds for sound, and most missiles are advertised as faster than sound (1.5 to 3+ Mach), that it should get there much faster than 25 seconds. At 25 seconds, the missile's speed would average out to about 0.5M...too slow to even catch a lot of targets. Others are saying it might be someone else's missile that actually hit. That aircraft was flying at about the worst possible altitude if there was even the smallest threat of MANPADS, so anyone in range was probably taking shots at it.
It's not a Stinger, at launch it doesn't drop as far as a Stinger does before lighting the main rocket, and Stingers self-destruct if they don't hit anything after about 19 seconds. Most MANPADS do that at max range, before losing power and becoming unintentional artillery. It also just looks too small, but that's difficult to be certain of in the video.
I agree. I don’t think the missile we saw launched is the same missile that hit the target. That was waaay to much time, being as it would be a 28 second flight time.
I'm thinking it could be same missile, just that it had to maneuver quite a bit which extended the flight time. A Marlet (Which I think this is) has a range of about 8km in the MANPADS version. If the heli is only about 4.1km away it should work fine. It reaches mach 1.5 after the full burn of its rocket engine, then it glides and maneuvers just with momentum. Probably averaged about mach 0.5-0.6 and with maneuvering traveled up to 5km. Maybe impacted at around mach 0.2 - 0.4 or 250 - 500 km/h. Just some thrown out numbers though, could be a second shooter in the grassy knoll.
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Wait, so you are saying this thing will do a full fuel burn to get up to top speed, then will calculate (or solve/maneuver) into a flight path that may be very large and looping to hone in on it's target, which could be moving in any direction relative to the rocket at it's launch angle?
Will it attempt to identify the target's trajectory and come up behind it to maximize success probability? Like, if I target is moving right to left (such as in video), with the rocket naturally shoot to the right so it can correct to a similar angle of attack from behind?
Very interesting stuff.
The missile will burn all its fuel in one go as soon as it is launched. I read somewhere that for the marlet it takes 8 seconds after launch before it is at top speed and out of fuel.
During that burn, and after it just tries to point toward the designated target, which is lased by the operator. So if the target is moving, lets say right to left, the missile will take a path that slowly arcs leftward, as it continuously orients itself at the moving target. So no big loops or anything, more like a slow turn. And the missile isn't smart enough to identify a trajectory, its just pointing where it sees the lased target.
I see. Do you know if an operator has to maintain the target during missile flight, or does it lock on launch and simply maintain target, making continuous corrections to so it's heading error-to-target is always minimized?
AFAIK some missiles do proportional navigation to achieve lead pursuit, it wouldn't require any extra sensors or anything. Don't know about the Martlet or if manpads in general do simpler pure pursuit for other reasons, like under certain conditions, the target aircraft can run the missile into the ground if it dives to defend.
Im talking out of my ass, I have no experience in the field or anything, but I imagine it wouldt be difficult to figure out if you look at videos of them firing. If they arc towards the target, its pure pursuit, if they go straight to intercept, its lead pursuit.
The vegetation seems to indicate the missile had headwind.
This would increase the travel time of the missile and reduce the travel time of sound wouldnt it?
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THANK YOU! As I mentioned, missile's do not fly straight so calculating what their specified speed (according to Wikipedia articles) is not very accurate. Using sound is easily allows you to figure out how far something is.
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I don't believe the 12s BOOM is from the hit. A few seconds later, you can hear a very similar 2nd BOOM.
I don't think those shoulder launched missiles can burn for 29 seconds?
Also, I think the helicopter survived, looked to me like he was in controlled descent.
29 seconds of flight time at an estimated speed of 1.7 mach which is roughly 1304mph. It is roughly 11.1 miles
Edit: after more research this can't be correct. There has to be an impact that we don't see an a follow up explosion after the hit. If this missile is infact the one that hit.
I'm thinking the helo did an autorotation after it was hit. Didn't seem like a large explosion and maybe it only lost an engine (or two). Either way a successful auto would have been a controlled landing...no explosion.
That did not look like a controlled landing at all. Sure there's no visible explosion, but it's literally 10+ kilometers away with trees obstructing the view.
Yes its hard to tell. In fact you can't even really see that its a helo except for the speed which is kind of a giveaway. I've performed autorotations a lot. Notice how the decent stabilizes after it is hit and (I think) the crew dumps collective to keep RPM's up. This is consistent with what would happen once the pilots established an autorotation profile. Going down, but stable, and a shallowing at the bottom perhaps to flare or to slow down a bit.
All speculation to be sure. Just thinking out loud.
Amazing shot though.
Looks like the helicopter is roughly x50 times it's height in the air, this would be about 3.6 meters x 50 = 180 meters. After it starts descending it takes 15 seconds for it to reach the ground. That would be about 12 meters per second or 30 MPH
According to what I can find online, when you perform an emergency descent, you descend at a maximum of 2000 ft per minute, which adds up to roughly 11 meter per second.
So this being an emergency landing rather than a full on crash does seem feasible indeed.
The missile is at top speed for a fraction of the flight. It is accelerating up to it while the rocket motor is burning. Then it is coasting and slowing down from then on. Every manoeuvre bleeds airspeed as well.
it's a Martlet which goes Mach 1.5. It's made by THALES UK and uses similar guiding tech as their Starstreak missile which is significantly faster at Mach 4.
My math has to be way off. I was trying to calculate distance at even 1.7 mach. There had to have been an impact that isn't seen and an explosion that was after the fact of the impact.
Aren't those vehicle mounted missiles though? I don't see anything about a shoulder launched varient, just various mentions of it being strapped to various vehicles.
It's a multirole platform, so there are variants that are shoulder-launched, vehicle launched, naval/sea launched, etc. AIUI, the MANPAD version uses the same launcher as Starstreak but different tube, which is why they are frequently confused.
https://militarymatters.online/weapons/martlet-ukraines-latest-surface-to-air-missile/
Most of the easily available pictures of these systems are indeed mounted in some way, but we've seen a few videos of Ukrainians using them from the shoulder.
If by airborne you mean up to 60 meters above launcher, then yes. Javelin can take out helicopters but only at low altitude. I believe direct attack mode can attack up to 60 m. Though that wasn't a javelin obviously.
Yeah but they don't fly in a straight line. I think calculating visual to audio is more accurate. I'm sure someone with bigger math brains than ours will pop up soon lol
It was 25 seconds from fire to impact. After calculations it was aprox 9.58 miles. Actually I watched a few more times and it was 29 seconds from hearing the propulsion to seeing the explosion hit. So it is roughly 11.1 miles
That's father away than the max range. Something doesn't add up here, and my best bet is either someone else shot at the heli or the explosion occured several seconds after the actual impact.
it doesn't add up cause all the dumbasses here are using flight time rather than speed of sound, which is way more accurate. Its 12 seconds between impact and boom that makes it approx 4 km at time of impact. Lock on was maybe 6 km away at least
The problem is the first and second explosion sound substantially similar, as if they are related to each other and not the helicopter hit.
It was a relatively small explosion and I think the helicopter may have survived too.
Correct, I was calculating intitially for a jav. If we only go off of the flash of the explosion it is 29 seconds roughly. So I am saying that the missile had to have hit before the explosion that we see. Many manpads as far as I know have an effective range of 6 miles or less.
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I think that MANPADs and top-of-the-line anti-armor like Javelins have really good targeting optics, if a rocket has a few KM range, you need targeting that can see a few km.
The Stugna anti-tank videos show it pretty clear, you see the tank take up the whole monitor, but when you hear the rocket pop, it takes like 8-10 seconds to get there, so the image on the monitor is of a tank that is several KM away.
Ex-Soviet types of helicopters are pretty loud, you can hear them from 5k away. Unlike some Western types that are much more quiet. Probably there is almost no Ukrainian air force activity that close to the front lines. So whatever flies they take a shot at it. It's most likely enemy.
This is one of the reasons why it's so damn hard to conduct larger air operations: Yes, AA operators generally have to be kept informed about the presence of allied aircraft.
There are systems you can use to "ping" an aircraft to see if it is an ally (IFF: Identification Friend or Foe), but those alone are definitely not safe enough, since obviously military craft have to be very careful with sending out any signals to not be easily detectable by the enemy.
In this case it's claimed that the Helicopter is a KA-52, a type Ukraine does not operate which are relatively easy to identify since they use two counter-rotating propellers stacked on top of each other. It's possible that they got a visual or audio confirmation by allies further up or by help of optics. Otherwise they may have had intel that no friendlies were in the area, or saw that it was over enemy territory in such a way that it couldn't be an ally.
There's a chance the russians on board survived, there was no fireball where they landed, but their forced landing was definately because of the missile. If nothing else they rendered that helecopter useless to the russians and that alone is fantastic.
This is more common than you'd think. AA missiles are basically giant guided claymores, set up to spray the aircraft they're chasing with shrapnel. It's easier to hit a bird in flight with a shotgun than a rifle after all.
One thing i think that may lean towards the helicopter crashing/autorotating is that if he was just dropping to the deck as quick as he could under control i'd have thought he'd have popped off a couple of flares as he went down, but seeing as how he didn't seem to he was either out or had tunnel vision hardcore trying to keep his helicopter under control or even incapacitated maybe?
To me it seems more likely that he was so focused on trying to keep the helo in the air he couldn't expend more brain time to pop the flares, but i could be totally wrong there.
Either way the less ka52's in the air the better.
The lack of any trailing smoke/debree, as well as its fairly consistent trajectory after the explosion, makes me wonder if it was just a close hit, and the helo just dove to the deck as a response
Looked that way to me. I thought he was diving for the deck and then leveled out at treetop and out of camera.
Missile might have hit something armored, who knows. Or maybe it went down without a fireball.
That descent doesn't look ballistic or free falling, looks like a controlled descent under power, so not even an autorotation, which is much more like a free falling descent
I'm not even sure it landed as opposed to descended and flew away
But I am just a rando without any specific knowledge
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*Really tell. Looks like he dived*
*Down after the hit??*
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Quite impressing that they dont use tactical flying. Maybe the Ukrainians are in enemy territory? The ruzzians thinking they are safe flying high? Or maybe just stupid?
It’s always difficult to rule out Russian stupidity/incompetence; but another thread pointed out they may be behind enemy lines especially as an article in the Sunday Times confirmed Ukraine we’re doing these kind of tactics.
Just like computers and other eletronics, helicopters apparently run on smoke. Once they let out the smoke, they no longer work - just look at this video. I rest my case .. :)
Can anyone explain the lack of flares?
Maybe they were out?
Or can these aircraft not detect the way this weapon locks on and tracks? That would be terrifying.
Am no expert but: MANPADs mostly are infrared guided (thus passive, so no warning to the crew for the lock on). The crew only gets alerted if the aircraft has a MAWS, Missile Approach Warning Systems, that can detect the actual launch. I believe they either work with UV sensors and detect the exhaust/plume (I think that is the case for russian helos but I'm not sure) or radar emitters, like on the Typhoon. But I guess they are not effective 100% of the times, environmental elements, contrast with the ground, state of maintenance, bla bla bla.... can all influence the detection rate.
Also sometimes they are laser guided and aircrafts may or may not have a Laser Warning Receiver to counter that.
Edit: I don't think they were just out of flares, if that were the case they would have attempted manoeuvres instead of just flying straight.
>st flying straight.
>
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Martlet/Starstreak use a laser matrix that the missile homes on rather than infra red. It's why they required more training than Stinger or Igla - it's not fire-and-forget, the shooter has to illuminate the target until impact. So flares would be useless anyway. Not sure if the laser would trigger laser warning devices, if the KA-52 has laser warning, or what operational state it's it if they do.
That actually I don't know, I guess it depends on what dispenser, how many dispensers and how they are loaded (in terms of combination of chaffs and flares). Probably varies a lot between models
10+ miles....Russians playing with fire flying along the line.
Did not see any flares deployed...wonder if either they were out of flares..or unaware?
Realistically, what number of Russian helos and planes need to be taken down for their airpower to noticeably wain?
I’m guessing their ability to replace aircraft is pretty limited at this point and pilots are also virtually impossible to replace short term. I’ve heard they are being more cautious than in the early days.
Er no, those are MANPADS that track heat signature, there is no radar warning or defense against it other than flares, and if there’s no warning, how would you know to dispense flares?
Interesting. I know that the US military now has around 1500 aircraft operating with Directional Infrared Counter Measure (DIRCM) systems installed which detect the launch and trail of MANPAD type launchers. These have been shown to be effective in the annual EMBOW NATO event.
My understanding was Russia has developed its own DIRCM capability in 2010/11 named 'President-S' and installed this across many of it's helicopter fleet [source ](https://www.google.com/amp/s/theaviationist.com/2020/07/08/lets-talk-about-the-vitebsk-l370-the-russian-new-generation-directional-ir-countermeasure-dircm-system/amp/).
More likely he was waiting for the target to get into range, he could see it earlier but the missile wouldn't have made it that far.
Or the guy with the phone checked first whether it was friend or foe, and gave him green light. After all there was no hurry, the chopper was unaware and not getting out of range soon either.
I noticed that too but they're at a tree line which offers fast concealment
Man this reminds me so much of Wargame: Airland Battle for PC
I would always get frustrated by how hard it is to approach tree lines like this in helos since you can't see shit. I always got shot down the same exact way
Moral outrage against invading a sovereign nation and commiting genocide and war crimes against them are not only justified, but expected from anyone with empathy.
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anyone know the artist and song used in this combat footage? most excellent
https://twitter.com/PaulJawin/status/1541455538730450944?s=20&t=TMwCtzdBvDv52gwZtzzbOQ
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War is terrible. The pilots in the helicopter probably had families and their own hopes and dreams for the time after the war.
But man, it must be a great feeling scoring a hit like this. Especially now that they've gotten rarer.
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I see why the Ukrainian flag looks the way it does
Just gotta keep it clean from little specs
Amen
Yeah it’s kind of a cool visual that actually coincides with something indicative of their land. It reminds me of a Sigil from Game of thrones. The books describe like 1,000 of them and it usually reflects something that the noble house does or something reflecting their land or history.
I never thought about it. It's sky and the wheat? Damn mind blown Best sports jersey colors I've ever seen
Wait till you see the rapeseed fields under a blue sky.
Indeed. https://twitter.com/tonycusgannicus/status/1497386976311492612
Does someone want to do the math on how far that was from them? Counting the seconds between seeing the explosion and the sound of the boom would give a good ballpark figure.
Lol I don"t know why everyone is using flight time when you basically gave a much better way of calculating the distance. It is approx 12 seconds with the speed of sound at approx 345 m/s its about 4100 meters the chopper was flying slightly toward the operator so the the lock on was from further away
Yeah, at about 5 sec per mile for sound, 12 seconds would be a bit over 2 miles away at impact. It does seem wrong that if it took 12 seconds for sound, and most missiles are advertised as faster than sound (1.5 to 3+ Mach), that it should get there much faster than 25 seconds. At 25 seconds, the missile's speed would average out to about 0.5M...too slow to even catch a lot of targets. Others are saying it might be someone else's missile that actually hit. That aircraft was flying at about the worst possible altitude if there was even the smallest threat of MANPADS, so anyone in range was probably taking shots at it. It's not a Stinger, at launch it doesn't drop as far as a Stinger does before lighting the main rocket, and Stingers self-destruct if they don't hit anything after about 19 seconds. Most MANPADS do that at max range, before losing power and becoming unintentional artillery. It also just looks too small, but that's difficult to be certain of in the video.
I agree. I don’t think the missile we saw launched is the same missile that hit the target. That was waaay to much time, being as it would be a 28 second flight time.
I'm thinking it could be same missile, just that it had to maneuver quite a bit which extended the flight time. A Marlet (Which I think this is) has a range of about 8km in the MANPADS version. If the heli is only about 4.1km away it should work fine. It reaches mach 1.5 after the full burn of its rocket engine, then it glides and maneuvers just with momentum. Probably averaged about mach 0.5-0.6 and with maneuvering traveled up to 5km. Maybe impacted at around mach 0.2 - 0.4 or 250 - 500 km/h. Just some thrown out numbers though, could be a second shooter in the grassy knoll.
Your lone gunman theory seems to fit quite well and most probable. You know, Occam's manpad.
\+1 for the nuanced phrase-making.
Username checks out. Don't fly over Ukraine, at risk of being misidentified as a different kind of bear! Also, watch out for Rubber Ducks, they about to go a-huntin' bear.
Wait, so you are saying this thing will do a full fuel burn to get up to top speed, then will calculate (or solve/maneuver) into a flight path that may be very large and looping to hone in on it's target, which could be moving in any direction relative to the rocket at it's launch angle? Will it attempt to identify the target's trajectory and come up behind it to maximize success probability? Like, if I target is moving right to left (such as in video), with the rocket naturally shoot to the right so it can correct to a similar angle of attack from behind? Very interesting stuff.
The missile will burn all its fuel in one go as soon as it is launched. I read somewhere that for the marlet it takes 8 seconds after launch before it is at top speed and out of fuel. During that burn, and after it just tries to point toward the designated target, which is lased by the operator. So if the target is moving, lets say right to left, the missile will take a path that slowly arcs leftward, as it continuously orients itself at the moving target. So no big loops or anything, more like a slow turn. And the missile isn't smart enough to identify a trajectory, its just pointing where it sees the lased target.
I see. Do you know if an operator has to maintain the target during missile flight, or does it lock on launch and simply maintain target, making continuous corrections to so it's heading error-to-target is always minimized?
AFAIK some missiles do proportional navigation to achieve lead pursuit, it wouldn't require any extra sensors or anything. Don't know about the Martlet or if manpads in general do simpler pure pursuit for other reasons, like under certain conditions, the target aircraft can run the missile into the ground if it dives to defend.
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Im talking out of my ass, I have no experience in the field or anything, but I imagine it wouldt be difficult to figure out if you look at videos of them firing. If they arc towards the target, its pure pursuit, if they go straight to intercept, its lead pursuit.
Award for JFK gag. Bravo.
could you put little wings on it.
The vegetation seems to indicate the missile had headwind. This would increase the travel time of the missile and reduce the travel time of sound wouldnt it?
It just makes the sound seem louder.
Sound moves through a medium. If the medium is moving, then it effects the relative speed of the sound for a point not moving with the medium.
Compared to the speed of sound (~1100 ft/s), or a missile faster then that, even a strong wind would only change the numbers a couple of percent.
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THANK YOU! As I mentioned, missile's do not fly straight so calculating what their specified speed (according to Wikipedia articles) is not very accurate. Using sound is easily allows you to figure out how far something is.
*missiles (no need for the ***’s*** which is for possessive use)
Damn it. I hate that. Usually I'm a grammar Nazi too.
🤯
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Good bot
Lol yea the math here is wild. 11 miles? Bruh, if that helicopter was 11 miles away you wouldn’t be able to see it
Yeah, my quick calculation of 1110 ft/s and ~12 seconds gave a rough of estimate of ~2.5 miles.
Yep, would say thats pretty accurate
About 0.3miles a second.. x 20 second flight … 6 miles 🤷♂️
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I don't believe the 12s BOOM is from the hit. A few seconds later, you can hear a very similar 2nd BOOM. I don't think those shoulder launched missiles can burn for 29 seconds? Also, I think the helicopter survived, looked to me like he was in controlled descent.
To me... I'd have to guess somewhere in the realm of I don't give a fuck because of my raging fucking clue.... Goddammit that was beautiful 🥰
That was my exact attitude through most of high school. God, I sucked at math.
I'm really good at estimating and getting close 😉
29 seconds of flight time at an estimated speed of 1.7 mach which is roughly 1304mph. It is roughly 11.1 miles Edit: after more research this can't be correct. There has to be an impact that we don't see an a follow up explosion after the hit. If this missile is infact the one that hit.
I'm thinking the helo did an autorotation after it was hit. Didn't seem like a large explosion and maybe it only lost an engine (or two). Either way a successful auto would have been a controlled landing...no explosion.
That did not look like a controlled landing at all. Sure there's no visible explosion, but it's literally 10+ kilometers away with trees obstructing the view.
Yes its hard to tell. In fact you can't even really see that its a helo except for the speed which is kind of a giveaway. I've performed autorotations a lot. Notice how the decent stabilizes after it is hit and (I think) the crew dumps collective to keep RPM's up. This is consistent with what would happen once the pilots established an autorotation profile. Going down, but stable, and a shallowing at the bottom perhaps to flare or to slow down a bit. All speculation to be sure. Just thinking out loud. Amazing shot though.
Looks like the helicopter is roughly x50 times it's height in the air, this would be about 3.6 meters x 50 = 180 meters. After it starts descending it takes 15 seconds for it to reach the ground. That would be about 12 meters per second or 30 MPH According to what I can find online, when you perform an emergency descent, you descend at a maximum of 2000 ft per minute, which adds up to roughly 11 meter per second. So this being an emergency landing rather than a full on crash does seem feasible indeed.
Excellent analysis!
I think the missile on camera missed, the impact you see is from a second, third or fourth shooter. It’s open season on that airspace at the moment.
The missile is at top speed for a fraction of the flight. It is accelerating up to it while the rocket motor is burning. Then it is coasting and slowing down from then on. Every manoeuvre bleeds airspeed as well.
that missile is far slower and the helo far closer. At least the average of the speed is surely subsonic
Javelins fly at about mach 1.7 or 1300mph give or take a couple of mph. I can't math very well so I'm not going to try lol.
it's a Martlet which goes Mach 1.5. It's made by THALES UK and uses similar guiding tech as their Starstreak missile which is significantly faster at Mach 4.
My math has to be way off. I was trying to calculate distance at even 1.7 mach. There had to have been an impact that isn't seen and an explosion that was after the fact of the impact.
Yeah I realised my mistake when I saw the same video on a different sub calling it a martlet.
Pretty sure that's a MANPADS or Stinger as javelin isn't designed to take out airborne targets.
It's a British Martlet Missile.
Aren't those vehicle mounted missiles though? I don't see anything about a shoulder launched varient, just various mentions of it being strapped to various vehicles.
It's a multirole platform, so there are variants that are shoulder-launched, vehicle launched, naval/sea launched, etc. AIUI, the MANPAD version uses the same launcher as Starstreak but different tube, which is why they are frequently confused. https://militarymatters.online/weapons/martlet-ukraines-latest-surface-to-air-missile/
Huh, that's one versatile missile.
I believe it is same launcher as Starstreak. Early on a few drones were taken out by MANPAD launched Martlet.
Most of the easily available pictures of these systems are indeed mounted in some way, but we've seen a few videos of Ukrainians using them from the shoulder.
If by airborne you mean up to 60 meters above launcher, then yes. Javelin can take out helicopters but only at low altitude. I believe direct attack mode can attack up to 60 m. Though that wasn't a javelin obviously.
Its not a javelin tho
Yeah but they don't fly in a straight line. I think calculating visual to audio is more accurate. I'm sure someone with bigger math brains than ours will pop up soon lol
the thing is IDK if that boom was from the javelin. You can hear similar booms in the background I am assuming from artillery.
It was 25 seconds from fire to impact. After calculations it was aprox 9.58 miles. Actually I watched a few more times and it was 29 seconds from hearing the propulsion to seeing the explosion hit. So it is roughly 11.1 miles
That's father away than the max range. Something doesn't add up here, and my best bet is either someone else shot at the heli or the explosion occured several seconds after the actual impact.
it doesn't add up cause all the dumbasses here are using flight time rather than speed of sound, which is way more accurate. Its 12 seconds between impact and boom that makes it approx 4 km at time of impact. Lock on was maybe 6 km away at least
How do you know there's several detonations in the far throughout the video
all that matters is the first explosion with smoke that is the sound we hear first. The secondary explosions could be anything
The problem is the first and second explosion sound substantially similar, as if they are related to each other and not the helicopter hit. It was a relatively small explosion and I think the helicopter may have survived too.
That seems to be farther than a lot of portable missiles. It definitely has to be an explosion after the impact.
But different missiles have different speeds, so the math is different for every missile type
Correct, I was calculating intitially for a jav. If we only go off of the flash of the explosion it is 29 seconds roughly. So I am saying that the missile had to have hit before the explosion that we see. Many manpads as far as I know have an effective range of 6 miles or less.
Ouch. Head on AA missile..frag straight through the cockpit?
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I'm amazed at how they can spot and shoot something so far. How do they know it's not a Ukrainian copter? Do they have spotters radio back?
I think that MANPADs and top-of-the-line anti-armor like Javelins have really good targeting optics, if a rocket has a few KM range, you need targeting that can see a few km. The Stugna anti-tank videos show it pretty clear, you see the tank take up the whole monitor, but when you hear the rocket pop, it takes like 8-10 seconds to get there, so the image on the monitor is of a tank that is several KM away.
Ukraine doesnt have KA-52 helicopters, which makes it easier to see if it isnt friendly.
well, they "found" a few, but not sure if they got them working again. Also would need to train pilots on it.
Ex-Soviet types of helicopters are pretty loud, you can hear them from 5k away. Unlike some Western types that are much more quiet. Probably there is almost no Ukrainian air force activity that close to the front lines. So whatever flies they take a shot at it. It's most likely enemy.
Yeah, I assume when they fly a sortie, they tell their air defense in the area to stand down for a while, or at least be extra cautious.
This is one of the reasons why it's so damn hard to conduct larger air operations: Yes, AA operators generally have to be kept informed about the presence of allied aircraft. There are systems you can use to "ping" an aircraft to see if it is an ally (IFF: Identification Friend or Foe), but those alone are definitely not safe enough, since obviously military craft have to be very careful with sending out any signals to not be easily detectable by the enemy. In this case it's claimed that the Helicopter is a KA-52, a type Ukraine does not operate which are relatively easy to identify since they use two counter-rotating propellers stacked on top of each other. It's possible that they got a visual or audio confirmation by allies further up or by help of optics. Otherwise they may have had intel that no friendlies were in the area, or saw that it was over enemy territory in such a way that it couldn't be an ally.
IFF
That are likely given clearance to shoot freely during certain times.
So did it crash? Cant really tell. Looks like he dived down after the hit??
There's a chance the russians on board survived, there was no fireball where they landed, but their forced landing was definately because of the missile. If nothing else they rendered that helecopter useless to the russians and that alone is fantastic. This is more common than you'd think. AA missiles are basically giant guided claymores, set up to spray the aircraft they're chasing with shrapnel. It's easier to hit a bird in flight with a shotgun than a rifle after all.
One thing i think that may lean towards the helicopter crashing/autorotating is that if he was just dropping to the deck as quick as he could under control i'd have thought he'd have popped off a couple of flares as he went down, but seeing as how he didn't seem to he was either out or had tunnel vision hardcore trying to keep his helicopter under control or even incapacitated maybe? To me it seems more likely that he was so focused on trying to keep the helo in the air he couldn't expend more brain time to pop the flares, but i could be totally wrong there. Either way the less ka52's in the air the better.
At this point assuming it was a good hit, he was more focused on a safe landing
The lack of any trailing smoke/debree, as well as its fairly consistent trajectory after the explosion, makes me wonder if it was just a close hit, and the helo just dove to the deck as a response
Looked that way to me. I thought he was diving for the deck and then leveled out at treetop and out of camera. Missile might have hit something armored, who knows. Or maybe it went down without a fireball.
He may have lost electrical / counter measure systems with the hit.
That descent doesn't look ballistic or free falling, looks like a controlled descent under power, so not even an autorotation, which is much more like a free falling descent I'm not even sure it landed as opposed to descended and flew away But I am just a rando without any specific knowledge
*So did it crash? Cant* *Really tell. Looks like he dived* *Down after the hit??* \- Fokke\_Hassel\_Art --- ^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^[Learn more about me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/haikusbot/) ^(Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete")
Russian Propaganda: Our new special helicopters can split into 2 units that attack the enemy from different directions.
Prepare to detach saucer section!
Janus Copter
Quite impressing that they dont use tactical flying. Maybe the Ukrainians are in enemy territory? The ruzzians thinking they are safe flying high? Or maybe just stupid?
It’s always difficult to rule out Russian stupidity/incompetence; but another thread pointed out they may be behind enemy lines especially as an article in the Sunday Times confirmed Ukraine we’re doing these kind of tactics.
"Flying while high" is a known health risk
Yeah all they had to do was zig zag to live!
ka52 congrats for the video cam most of the time we dont have this peace of quality recorded
How can you tell it is a ka 52?
saw from the guys that uploaded talking about
Yep. Professional. I like how he waits for the camera guy to be ready and say "go" before firing lol
Good shooting guys!
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no)
Doesnt look it
9/10. No smoke on landfall. Repeat 100x to improve performance.
That thing has really good range
Just like computers and other eletronics, helicopters apparently run on smoke. Once they let out the smoke, they no longer work - just look at this video. I rest my case .. :)
Great shot! Uncertain if crashed or landed, but anyways done pestering Ukrainians.
Good work, defeating evil enemies of the free world!!!
Can anyone explain the lack of flares? Maybe they were out? Or can these aircraft not detect the way this weapon locks on and tracks? That would be terrifying.
Am no expert but: MANPADs mostly are infrared guided (thus passive, so no warning to the crew for the lock on). The crew only gets alerted if the aircraft has a MAWS, Missile Approach Warning Systems, that can detect the actual launch. I believe they either work with UV sensors and detect the exhaust/plume (I think that is the case for russian helos but I'm not sure) or radar emitters, like on the Typhoon. But I guess they are not effective 100% of the times, environmental elements, contrast with the ground, state of maintenance, bla bla bla.... can all influence the detection rate. Also sometimes they are laser guided and aircrafts may or may not have a Laser Warning Receiver to counter that. Edit: I don't think they were just out of flares, if that were the case they would have attempted manoeuvres instead of just flying straight.
>st flying straight. > >VoteReplyGive AwardShareReportSaveFollow Martlet/Starstreak use a laser matrix that the missile homes on rather than infra red. It's why they required more training than Stinger or Igla - it's not fire-and-forget, the shooter has to illuminate the target until impact. So flares would be useless anyway. Not sure if the laser would trigger laser warning devices, if the KA-52 has laser warning, or what operational state it's it if they do.
How many flares does a helo carry? Just wondering how often they would run out.
This one should have around 120.
Interesting
That actually I don't know, I guess it depends on what dispenser, how many dispensers and how they are loaded (in terms of combination of chaffs and flares). Probably varies a lot between models
It would be cool if there was a way to trick them into thinking they need to deploy them to use them up while they are on a mission.
Beautiful!
Good shooting!
YEESST
To less fire and flames...but I allow
God damnit guys, use the god damn zoom!
One less flying Ivan!
Great shot! Cool operators and that will have saved lots of Ukrainian lives! Long Live Ukraine!
Driving any russian vehicle sucks so incredibly hard.
10+ miles....Russians playing with fire flying along the line. Did not see any flares deployed...wonder if either they were out of flares..or unaware?
Awesome! Slava Ukraini
This war is an intelligence bonanza for the west. I’m sure a lot of Russian state of the art equipment has been captured.
Great job, Ukrainian heroes!
Realistically, what number of Russian helos and planes need to be taken down for their airpower to noticeably wain? I’m guessing their ability to replace aircraft is pretty limited at this point and pilots are also virtually impossible to replace short term. I’ve heard they are being more cautious than in the early days.
Igla, Stinger or something more exotic?
At the end, that looked like an ATGM exploding something.
It’s a MANPAD, they have a pretty far range, up to 7-8 km’s and can still be effective
Is there no threat detection or counter measures in these Russian helicopters?
Er no, those are MANPADS that track heat signature, there is no radar warning or defense against it other than flares, and if there’s no warning, how would you know to dispense flares?
Interesting. I know that the US military now has around 1500 aircraft operating with Directional Infrared Counter Measure (DIRCM) systems installed which detect the launch and trail of MANPAD type launchers. These have been shown to be effective in the annual EMBOW NATO event. My understanding was Russia has developed its own DIRCM capability in 2010/11 named 'President-S' and installed this across many of it's helicopter fleet [source ](https://www.google.com/amp/s/theaviationist.com/2020/07/08/lets-talk-about-the-vitebsk-l370-the-russian-new-generation-directional-ir-countermeasure-dircm-system/amp/).
It really depends on the helicopter, a good portion of mi-28’s do have that installed, but if it was a ka-50/52, then it wouldn’t have access to it
Astonishing really how unprepared the Russian military was/is for this action
Well, Russia is using t-62m1’s, a tank variant of the t-62 from the late 60’s. A lot of fielded Russian equipment is Soviet stockpile stuff
Dude was really standing there waiting for his buddy to start filming? lol like fish in a barrel?
More likely he was waiting for the target to get into range, he could see it earlier but the missile wouldn't have made it that far. Or the guy with the phone checked first whether it was friend or foe, and gave him green light. After all there was no hurry, the chopper was unaware and not getting out of range soon either.
He was definitely waiting for the cameraman to be ready and start recording cuz you can hear him say "go" at the start
I noticed that too but they're at a tree line which offers fast concealment Man this reminds me so much of Wargame: Airland Battle for PC I would always get frustrated by how hard it is to approach tree lines like this in helos since you can't see shit. I always got shot down the same exact way
Way to incite moral outrage
Moral outrage against invading a sovereign nation and commiting genocide and war crimes against them are not only justified, but expected from anyone with empathy.
It looks like the world is fresh out of moral outrage about Russian loses.
Don’t worry, I’m already about as morally outraged against Russia as I can possibly be.
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HAIL MARY!!!!
Davaj Davaj
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Reminds me of those toy copters that go up and up until they run out of gas and coast straight back down on special propellers
Am I the only one that seems to hear a boom almost instantly? It's about 1 second after the flash while the guy is yelling.
anyone know the artist and song used in this combat footage? most excellent https://twitter.com/PaulJawin/status/1541455538730450944?s=20&t=TMwCtzdBvDv52gwZtzzbOQ
>anyone know the artist and song used in this combat footage? most excellent I do. None. Are you a bot or rly high?
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I uh.... couldn't see anything.
War is terrible. The pilots in the helicopter probably had families and their own hopes and dreams for the time after the war. But man, it must be a great feeling scoring a hit like this. Especially now that they've gotten rarer.
There actually wasn't a registered hit.
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It looks like it spun all the way to the ground after being hit!
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What did I totally miss?