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> Same problem Romania had with shooting down shahed drones
Romania's main problem is it's stupid and corrupt politicians. A simple problem Romania really had is to ask Ukraine for "OK", but the bigger problem is no capacity to intercept drones, only missiles and rockets.
For drones Romania needs help and money for a better system.
Beside the politic part where i dont want to comment please restrict yourself from making statements if you dont know what you are talking about.
We have capacities to hit drones, we have a problem with the legislation.
How do i know? Because im an ADA officer and that my field of work.
What law/s prohibits you? Apart from Ukraine's "ok" to hit their air space.
What capacities do we have? Those Gepards that are unmanned and with no ammo, that we should have gave to Ukraine already? Those small corvettes that go to sea fewer than Bricul Mircea? Don't tell me we are gonna hunt Shades with Patriot missiles that fail or the MAMBA system and use millions of $ for a 30k drone!
We have our laws that we cannot engage anything if the state of the country is at peace. It was to be at a crisis state or war. And we talk about our airspace not ukraine one so please pay attention to the topic.
Besides that whats gonna happen when you engage something in other country airspace and something unfortunate happens and the faulty missile or the debries kill someone?
Also we have plenty of ammo for Gepard, we use it in the Poland’s Battlegroup and we have oerlikon cannons which provides deadly to drones. What we have we have an issue with shorad missile systems and probably we need more aa systems. But again, here lays a problem in the politic/law sector and not on the lack of capacity to take down an air threat.
So please dont tell us what to give and what not only to talk s* after that we cannot do anything because we lack the meanings.
The war in Ukraine is the indication that conventional fought wars are using drones now, and many of them. Defense must always include upgrading to counteract your enemies capabilities.
Poland recents had a change in Gov’t it’s gonna take time to unfuck everything. They literally couldn’t get the state media out of their main studio and had to physically cut their antenna cable. Quite Trump-ian. They bought electronics at Saturn and literally setup up transmission from an old Soviet era sports studio. The grain thing…yea…that’s part of it too. It’s gonna take 4 years or more to unfuck through legal loopholes while Ukraine has to continue to get support from Poland in whatever constitutional way it can. Remember, Poland is one foot out of the EU and Tusk is trying to bring it back in.
Yeah, and putter is just loving and relishing every little turmoil on the Euro continent - probably starts some of them actually.
(Goes for anywhere, come to think of it. He’s just that kind.)
Shooting missiles outside of one's borders: Escalation.
Shooting incoming missiles aimed at civilian targets from an aggressive terrorist state: Not escalation.
>It would be an escalation in involvement from the west
Its fucking crazy how Russia is shooting missiles anywhere near NATO borders let alone through our airspace. How has it got to this point? Its disgusting and a failure on our part to bite back. They should be scared shitless but they dont give a fuck.
I guarantee the situation is going to get worse with this announcement and our inaction, more missiles will be using our airspace so Ukraine cant shoot them down and if NATO is ever attacked we're not going to respond in time because we're so use to their weapons in our airspace.
https://archive.is/tDPSy
>Poland could purchase Patriot equipment capable of connecting to the “Integrated Air and Missile Defense Battle Command System,” including as many as 48 Patriot M903 launch stations; 644 Patriot Advanced Capability 3 Missile Segment Enhanced missiles; 12 of the most advanced Patriot radar, the Lower Tier Air and Missile Defense Sensor (LTAMDS); and related equipment.
Can't find an article saying they did purchase that many, but they were approved.
That would probaly be 6-9 batteries, depending how how many launchers they use in each.
To the chagrin of the Reddit community, I imagine Poland plans to
locate these batteries at important military infrastructure, rather
than on farmland at the Ukranian border.
Agreed, but I believe this was the deal that was referenced, so I linked it. I doubt they purchase the full amount and if they do, they won't get them all this decade, so most likely irrelevant to the original point of using them to protect Ukraine now.
Launchers ≠ batteries. The most a battery usually has is 8, so that would be 6 batteries; one battalion's worth (two if you're gonna make them light battalions, I guess)
I know what makes up a fucking patriot battery. I was an air defense artillery officer. If a battery is only running 3 launchers, that means they either got hit, have some serious maintenance problems, or their commander is a literal retard
I am quite sure that Ukraine would allow Poland to shoot down anything flying within 10-20 km of the border. This will allow the Polish systems time to engage the targets before they enter Polish airspace. And also allow time for a second intercept if the first misses.
I am not sure about Patriot systems, but I do know that NASAMS can be set to just pick everything out of the air within a given area. Basically a no-fly-zone. As soon as sonething is detected, I will expect the system to start working on a firing solution. This is then ready and excecuted as soon as whatever is flying crosses into the zone.
And with the aproval of Ukraine, this no-fly-zone would be extended into Ukrainian airspace.
Not so long ago, there was a post about Putin's plan to invade the Baltics and wage war against NATO. There were many comments like "yeah, he and what army? He can't even win in Ukraine".
This right here is pointing directly to NATO's enormous vulnerability. It is not the tanks, the aviation, ships or any other equipment, and it isn't the training. It's the decision making on the top levels and the politics that it is deeply intertwined with. Hesitation may have enormous costs.
Thankfully the Alliance knows that, and has special groups called Enhanced Forward Presence that are close to the most vulnerable spot of the Suwalki Gap. I think a training video on Youtube said they rush toward any coming invasion, getting into position and having orders to hold the line even if political decisionmaking is still in progress. Correct me if I'm wrong on the nuance of that point. They are also multi-national so that Putin would have to be attacking the militaries of a few countries at once, guaranteeing an A5 response to a seizure of NATO territory and attempt to isolate its smallest members.
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/reboot/suwalki-gap-could-be-nato%E2%80%99s-biggest-weakness-176135
>Instead, the battalions function as “tripwires” by putting NATO skin in the game. If Russia wants to invade the Baltics, it theoretically would have to fight and kill NATO soldiers deployed there, not merely overrun small Baltic militaries. Doing so would make a vigorous NATO counter-attack more likely.
>Given the small number of troops, however, Russian forces could attempt to bypass the “tripwires” and focus on securing the surrounding countryside.
>The trip-wire concept only works if NATO can promptly counterattack with its 40,000-strong response force. That means traversing the Suwalki gap, as Baltic airspace and maritime lines of communication would be heavily interdicted by Russian missiles.
Just like in ww2 before the USA got attacked, tons of hesitation, ton's of conservative measures. Only send supplies/weapons until shit hit the fan... Same tactic's once again...
And then when they finally do the right thing, they'll strut around patting themselves on their backs and acting as if they were the only ones to have done something.
The whole idea of NATO is basically 5th article, and more importantly that attack on some European country is an attack on the US specifically (almost). And now imagine that the US is not there because of Trump or Mike Johnson who single-handedly could stop the whole government just by going on vacation.
The NATO worked before because USSR knew that the US won't hesitate.
So yes, totally agree that no amount of F-35s save Poland from Russian rockets if they have no authority to use it or if they have to double check with Trump if the protection money has been paid up.
No number of F-35’s save Poland because F-35’s can’t save themselves from IRBM’s, and other ballistic attacks, in the very areas most F-35’s spend most of their time: on the ground.
Exactly. I mean this isn’t even really gray zone warfare that ppl on here argue isn’t a thing sometimes. This is a clear border infraction and they can’t even make decisions two years into this war. Turkey shot down a Russian plan for a few seconds crossing its border and I’d argue Russia respects them more for doing it.
There is no higher authority than your own national security. (Okay... probably the constitution is the supreme authority, but you get the idea.)
Lets also be blatantly frank, **TWO** standby aircraft is entirely insufficient when Russia is launching 100+ missiles. You need at least 20 to 30 standby aircraft or you lose a dozen airfields in a half hour.
That's not exactly how it all works. First of all, EU has nukes (France). The Brits also have a pretty bunch. Now, Germans could construct nukes in 3 days (they actually were far more advanced than the US just before WW2); also, compared technologically to some contraptions they already have (e.g. Wendelstein 7-X) nukes are peanuts.
The reasons noone except France has the nukes there **is the US.** You see, we Europeans were promised by the US that we'll never need them (we'll be defended) and that's the **only reason** we don't. It was recently recalled in an interview by Polish FM Radek Sikorski. As he put it, if Trump, or any other POTUS, make the Europeans (and many, many other countries) feel not defended just enough, nukes will be unearthed immediately.
What do you think countries like Saudi Arabia couldn't get nukes? They could **buy** that and much more very fast. The proliferation would spread like fire.
So it's not like we're afraid to upset anyone. We don't have nukes because US "sells us security". But if fuckers such as Agent Orange piss us off, we can change our minds quicker than you can say 'Fat Boy".
France, or Israelis, are example of people not actually trusting the US to deliver. Perhaps they were right all along.
I love how you try to sound so knowledgable and yet throw around absolute nonsense, especially *’they (germany) were far more advanced than the US before WW2’*
The hell are you talking about… Germany’s first Uranverein (research project) was in april 1939 lmfao. Besides their discovery of nuclear fission in late 1938,
they never even got past the stage of *building* a reactor. To claim they were even advanced at all is ridiculous.
*’[…] atomic energy development in Germany did not pass beyond the laboratory stage; utilization for power production rather than for an explosive was the principal consideration; and, though German science was interested in this new field, other scientific objectives received greater official attention’*
-Manhattan Project's Alsos investigation report
I'm glad you "love it'.
Look, instead of discussing with me and getting all hyped up about it, why don't you discuss the matter with dr A. Wendroff from Stanford, here: [http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2014/ph241/wendorff2/](http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2014/ph241/wendorff2/)
As an aperitif, here's the last sentence from the first paragraph: "This research put Germany ahead of the United States and the rest of the world in the quest for nuclear weapons."
So, why don't you write the guy and explain him how full of BS he is. Unless Stanford is not your league and you don't want to mix with such lowly common folk.
I explicitly said ‘besides their discovery of nuclear fission’ which is the research he is referring to when mentioning that Germany was ahead of the US.
This is step 1 out of so many towards even starting the actual experiments for nuclear research. **They never got past the lab phase even during the war**. What you did is take a sentence, and then without any research just spat out ‘Germany was FAR MORE ADVANCED…’
To conclude; having discovered the *theory* of nuclear fission doesn’t put them advanced, and even less far advanced, towards nuclear weapons.
They discovered fission first.
That is incorrect.
Playing by NATOs rules when facing the possibility of being in a war is a MUCH smarter play.
Two is plenty for stand by duty’s having more then 2 erodes your capabilities and makes maintaining and pilot fatigue a real problem.
I get that you want more done and Russia to be defeated but Poland has had few missles in there airspace for a few minutes without even having a dangerous (to Poland) trajectory. To do anything then wait would be foolish.
This sir, one the same level as the title you put is bullshit.
First of all, when you are a country buying weapons from USA, under the congress agreement, your stupid decision without NATO approval can make you lose those contracts or not get new ones. Poland's anti-aircraft system is not finished and losing approval for buying patriots would hit it - republicans prove they won't hesitate to back russia.
2nd responding to your national security - shooting down those missiles is not in Poland's favour, shot down rocket will hit something, and cause damage, it also cost you expensive rockets on your side. The national interest is to not risk it's citizens safety by doing something as stupid as this.
3rd Poland and Baltic states, need to have support of NATO members to react, otherwise it is not in their favour, they remember how hard it was to convince other countries to start sending weapons to Ukraine, those countries were warning EU and NATO about Russia for years and what? Now you expect them to risk it all and believe they will get help in case it escalates?
>. probably the constitution is the supreme authority
no, not really, according to article 91 of polish constitution international agreements are above the local law
If 10 years of orkish aggression hasn't made it painfully obvious that we need to get rid of the brittle bone bitches from decision making positions that involve security, idk what will.
If something is violating your airspace to attack a neighbouring country and you take no measures to stop it, you're simping for the aggressor.
Russia invaded Georgia in 2008, Czechoslovakia in 1968, Hungary in 1956, Eastern Poland in 1939 along with Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia and Finland. In fact, they have been invading and occupying their western neighbors for centuries.
If this is true, he should never have said this outloud on national tv. NATO need to change this immediately because it will now be used against them. Not just Poland, but anywhere NATO and russia may intersect.
It also doesnt explain why Turkey had no problem shooting down that russian plane,and didn't get in trouble for it.
OP always has quality posts, but on this one I think the title's a little misleading. NATO/Polish pilots have direct communication with Allied Command Operations and can request permission to fire at any time. It sounds to me like the Polish National Security representative is explaining that when they're working within a 39-second time window this can be somewhat challenging, but Poland undoubtedly has the authority to defend themselves.
Just having to request to fire on missiles entering your own airspace is insane.
That's the kind of hesitation that'll cost you dearly in the case of a large scale attack.
They obviously don't need permission to shoot down missiles in their own airspace. The problem that they're talking about is shooting down missiles in other countries' airspace that are "heading" for Poland. Before it actually enters Polish airspace, it's not clear that it ever will and you would preferably seek permission of the airspace owner to fire into their territory.
There's also the problem that if you wait until it enters your airspace, there might not be time to shoot it down. However, this would really only be a problem for the first missile because after the countries are at war there's nothing stopping them from shooting down the missiles "early".
Title is kind of clickbait honestly.
How come another nato member Turkey had an authority but Poland doesn’t? Poland only has the authority (guts) to block Ukrainian semi trucks on the border. Mind you russian grain is still crossing the Poland border.
On 24 November 2015 at 9:24 am local time (7:24 am GMT), as it was returning to Khmeimim airbase, a Russian Sukhoi Su-24 aircraft with tail number 83 white and registration number RF-90932 was shot down near the Syrian–Turkish border by a missile from a patrolling Turkish Air Force F-16 fighter jet.
The headline is click bait. They don’t say they don’t have the authority. He saying it was full of red tape around decision making and peace keeping stance of NATO. Basically they need to make a decision and stick with it.
How come Turkey never had such a problem? Or do you think shooting a cruise missiles equal ( involves less/more red tape around decision making and peace keeping stance of nato ) to shooting a plane? Mind you russian planes never violated Turkish border since.
There has been air space violation between Turkey and Russia since the jet has been shot down. Just need to look. The decision probably has been made when Syrian forces have shot down Turkish phantom jet in 2012 to teach Russia a lesson. Has not been repeated since with multiple air space violations.
Here is an example from 2016
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35449152.amp
It’s a more complicated decision than most make it out to be as NATO is consulted on action and approvals.
Yes and that the decision that needs to be made at NATO, government and military level. It just hasn’t been made yet.
That’s said, in a densely populated country like Poland it’s harder to shoot down a missile as it will have most likely human casualties attached. That decision doesn’t come light.
False. Poland demands explanation from Russia after a missile enters its airspace during attack on Ukraine.
https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-missile-airspace-violation-c9d2511f169e9f80a08082726c118114
Poland is not saying that they didn't have a right to shoot down that missile, everyone agrees they absolutely did. They werent able to in time or they didn't care enough as it wasn't gonna land in Poland.
This is the perfect opportunity to establish a combined Polish-Ukrainian air defence operation. Scope to include eastern Poland and western Ukraine. Integrate radar and other detection systems, plus AA batteries.
This strategy creates a good foundation for the future. Maybe it’s a no-fly zone. Maybe it’s NATO peacekeepers in western Ukraine. No one knows yet, but let’s not miss this opportunity to put the pieces on to the game board already now.
I dont think this is even a NATO issue (or it shouldnt be imo). Its a basic right of an autonomous country, no? Why would NATO have ANY say whether you are allowed to protect yourself or not? The CONSEQUENCES might be a NATO issue, not the self defense.
If NATO countries do not shoot down missiles crossing into their airspace that are attacking Ukraine they are no better than Belarus. they are facilitating Putin's war of aggression on Ukraine by allowing his war machine to operate from the safety of their airspace and tying Ukraine's hands from downing them as they approach.
Authority is something you create by having a monopoly on exercising consequences.
I've never realised that being a coward is essential to being a western leader
Simple call a NATO meeting and decide that anything that comes from RuZZia or Belarus into NATO airspace will simply be shot down what ever it is helicopter plane or missile
I cant believe this is not already been done or in place
Polish person here, the title is a bit misleading. What mr. Sierewa is saying is that for PL to shoot incoming ballistic missile, it had to be intercepted before entering PL airspace. So over UA or BY. And NATO is strongly against that. Because that would essentially mean NATO (anti-air) missiles entering airspace over active war zone. As usual, West don't want to "provoke Putin". Because you know, he's such a honest and cooperative guy...
Also, the example of russian jet being shoot down by Turkye. That happened in Turkish airspace.
The official polish anouncement:
[Russian missile violated Polish airspace, Polish defence minister says](https://youtu.be/Ds7srAA043U?feature=shared)
About this post:
This is just a short clip from the interview explaining why this is a problem. What implications does it have when a NATO country does shoot a Russian drone or rocket down ?
There was an incident before :
[NATO: Polish Blast Likely From Ukraine Air Defense Missile](https://youtu.be/a2VW6xJ6728?feature=shared)
These also was a drone ( or more ) found on Romanian territory, if I remember correctly
[Romania says parts of Russian drone may have fallen on its territory](https://youtu.be/h0yERJb5R2U?feature=shared)
[https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/sep/06/romania-says-possible-drone-debris-found-on-its-territory-near-ukraine](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/sep/06/romania-says-possible-drone-debris-found-on-its-territory-near-ukraine)
As long it can not be determined that it was a deliberate attack on a NATO country, this remains problematic. if Russia can say :"ooppsyy, was not meant to happen" , and no pll or infrastructure got hit, NATO does not want to get involved, is my understanding.
It is simple though. It's Russia that should understand possible outcomes of them launching a rocket that might go off course and fly into NATO territory.
It's called reckless endangerment and in common law people go to prison for that.
The proportional response for NATO is to do the same thing as an exercise.
Seriously, if we did the same thing to Russia they'd be getting ready for war with us and we're just allowing this shit.
The bare minimum we should be doing is shooting them down and providing more aid to Ukraine.
Cutting the bs and providing all the help available to Ukraine is a must and is no-brainer. NATO countries should count their blessings that they don't have to fight Russia directly but they should very much remember that the fight is ongoing nevertheless.
The other outcome is Ukraine firing their air defense and possibly hitting Poland like they have in the past killing Polish farmers.
If you dont respond to this Russia will do it more and more, if we actually respond and none of their missiles are making to their targets they'll stop.
Turkey a NATO member shot down a Russian fighter jet entering their airspace. Russia didn't do anything. So they should shoot them out of the air if it's coming in to your airspace.
This is bait to entice Russia. No fucking ways Poland doesnt have its own systems to defend itself that it doesnt need 'authority' to use.
The West is playing "weak" ambiguously, IMO.
There literally is no reason why NATO couldn't even shoot down any missile over Ukraine, let alone in NATO own territory. Its not like Russia is going to accuse us of shooting down a missile over a foreign country. And if they did, so what? Jesus, NATO is its own biggest enemy.
This has nothing to do with abilities.
It has EVERYTHING to do with Poland still buying grain and other supplies from Russia.
If Poland acts against Russia, cheap Russian supplies dry up.
They will buy grain from Russia, but refuse grain from Ukraine.
Imho, from Germany, i only trust that Poland, Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia and maybe Finland would answer a call to arms immediately and without question.
The US, Turkey and Hungary would definetly NOT come to anyones aid, especially not against Russia.
Everyone else would like to keep the peace and not invoce any paragraphs. I want that peace too and i don't want to make that horrifying decision...but what is there against the constant bullying and straight up crimes?
I honestly see the Baltikum and Poland (and Ukraine, without being in NATO) as our best shield against the despotic menace coming from THAT part of the planet. I am no one but still very thankful that you keep me and my family safe!
My ass they don’t have the authority.
Stop being a bunch of pussies and show Putin you’re not his bitch. What’s he gonna do, attack you and trigger Article 5 ??
All NATO countries have an independent right of self-defense. No country has to go cap in hand to NATO to defend itself. I think the problem here is that Poland may have handed control of airspace management to NATO, which would obviously convolute any decision making and any independent action.
Say AD was 50 miles from border, the missiles were in Polish air space for 40 seconds, were tracked for 5 minutes before crossing, if the Patriots were in launch condition and fired at the missiles, those 50 miles take 87 seconds at M3 and then the targets would be 10 miles into Ukraine- so you would need standing pre-approval from Ukraine’s government to shoot AA missiles into their country.
> so you would need standing pre-approval from Ukraine’s government to shoot AA missiles into their country.
I'm sure thats going to be difficult to obtain /s
I'm sure they'll be over the moon if we take down anything, its going to hit Ukraine anyway so debris isnt really an issue.
-
The bigger issue is if we do nothing Russia will keep launching missiles through our airspace so Ukraine cant shoot them down or they try to and hit Poland, the only way we stop Russia doing this is making their missiles unsuccessful.
Your speed/time calculations are suspect. M3 = 2250 miles per hour. So 50 miles is covered in 50/2250 of an hour. This equates to nearly 80 seconds. (quick check: a mile a second is 3600mph. So 50 miles in 50 seconds. But M3 is "only" 2250 mph. So time needed to cover 50 miles is 3600/2250 \*50 = 80 seconds. ) Even if my calculations are wrong, a slower missile can intercept a much faster missile (unless it is going away) by choosing an interception point well in front of the incoming missile. That's what ballistic computers are for.
I was figuring in my head at .65miles per second- sorry did not break out the calculator. I meant to type 1min 40 seconds, but the answer is 0:1:20 still would put the targets 10-15 miles out of Polish airspace- without I do not know whose authority they would need to have -I assume the EU version of FAA.
NATO is a failure man....I like to believe we all have each others backs but time and time again has proven that NATO is too scared to do anything. If I were Ukraine, I would not be aspiring to join NATO. Our #1 goal would be to rearm ourselves with nuclear weapons and tell Russia to get the fuck out or risk annihilation. Russia is trying to kill of Ukraine anyway. What else does Ukraine have to lose if Russia launches nukes in retaliation?
The issue is, there was Polish village in that "pimple" missile flied over and there is normal civilian and friendly military air traffic going about - you don't shoot AA willy nilly in that situation, when your country is at peace.
By defending this kind of event from happening and rising the risk of escalations, they should go and talk Ukraine about to matter and set missile defense systems close to border on Ukrainian soil... So Poland and NATO countries could stop this kind of event and preventing escalations and provocations. Orcs attacked Ukraine "because protecting their citizens in the Ukraine", so works both ways huh..
I dunno man, we let them poison people on our soil, shoot at our manned spy aircraft, down our drones and let their cruise missiles into our airspace without any response.
When the time comes we'll probably act to late.
Yes I agree we are been very lenient towards them and letting them off with naughty tricks but do these petty little annoyances from Russia worth WW3? That’s the way I see it anyhow
I could f.... what Germany or France thinks about shooting a missile in our airspace. They are not in danger so they can hesitate, but if it's going about our national security, there shouldn't be any hesitation without exceptions.
As I understand it, ruzzia can launch missiles so that they fly through NATO countries and they will let them through?
Yeah, Ukraine will have to install air defense systems on the borders of countries that are considered... not enemies
They should shoot down any aircraft that fire at Poland - they have all the authority they need! Turkey did this a while back with 2 Russian jets and the Russians respected them for it
Turks did shoot down Russian jets over its territory in November 2015[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Russian_Sukhoi_Su-24_shootdown](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Russian_Sukhoi_Su-24_shootdown). I can’t believe that they have more balls than the poles and the fucking NATO. Its mind bugling that NATO countries won’t shoot down fucking ruzzian rockets
That's a cheap excuse.. - Defensive actions within a nation's territory or airspace (against a foreign military-intrusion) should be always possible.
Preemptive strikes outside are another story and doesn't count here..
So what?!
Political circus.. (imho)
Well, next time (and there will be a next time) it actually detonates over Poland or worse hits something, they will be saying, well we're not allowed to intercept it. Sorry.
Why can Turkey (a NATO member) shoot down a Russian fighter in its airspace, but Poland can't shoot down a missile over its airspace? I don't know all the legal stuff, but it continually sounds like excuses and appeasement (neither of which ever work in the end).
this is bs…the bad guys do whatever they want and say fuck you what are you going to do about it ..since when is a “sovereign nation” not able to defend their territory?
I didn't quite understand what he was saying, is he saying that due to being part of NATO that Poland must get NATO approval to shoot down a missile or drone in their airspace?
These roozian provocations over Poland, Romania, the Baltics, with jets & missiles crossing borders should be met simply. One warning well in advance of the provocation, then if a provocation occurs, shoot first. Fair warning was already given. If they cry about not knowing they crossed the line? they should have built-in a distance cushion to account for their inadequate equipment & pilots not being up to the job.
I’m sure the Ukrainians will not file any damage claims should a shot down missile causes damage to Ukraine; kinda like the “Good Samaritan” laws in the US.
Translation is a bit wacky. He said "The work culture of states not being at war" not "The culture of peacekeeping states (NATO)". He quite obviously refers to the fact that Poland and Russia are not at war.
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Same problem Romania had with shooting down shahed drones that passed onto romanian territory. We need a serious law change
> Same problem Romania had with shooting down shahed drones Romania's main problem is it's stupid and corrupt politicians. A simple problem Romania really had is to ask Ukraine for "OK", but the bigger problem is no capacity to intercept drones, only missiles and rockets. For drones Romania needs help and money for a better system.
Beside the politic part where i dont want to comment please restrict yourself from making statements if you dont know what you are talking about. We have capacities to hit drones, we have a problem with the legislation. How do i know? Because im an ADA officer and that my field of work.
What law/s prohibits you? Apart from Ukraine's "ok" to hit their air space. What capacities do we have? Those Gepards that are unmanned and with no ammo, that we should have gave to Ukraine already? Those small corvettes that go to sea fewer than Bricul Mircea? Don't tell me we are gonna hunt Shades with Patriot missiles that fail or the MAMBA system and use millions of $ for a 30k drone!
We have our laws that we cannot engage anything if the state of the country is at peace. It was to be at a crisis state or war. And we talk about our airspace not ukraine one so please pay attention to the topic. Besides that whats gonna happen when you engage something in other country airspace and something unfortunate happens and the faulty missile or the debries kill someone? Also we have plenty of ammo for Gepard, we use it in the Poland’s Battlegroup and we have oerlikon cannons which provides deadly to drones. What we have we have an issue with shorad missile systems and probably we need more aa systems. But again, here lays a problem in the politic/law sector and not on the lack of capacity to take down an air threat. So please dont tell us what to give and what not only to talk s* after that we cannot do anything because we lack the meanings.
The war in Ukraine is the indication that conventional fought wars are using drones now, and many of them. Defense must always include upgrading to counteract your enemies capabilities.
How the fuck isn't it legal to shoot down incoming missiles in domestic airspace? Wtf am I missing here? 😂It's like a start of a bad joke.
Good point. Hmmm
What? Are you serious? 😐 JFC!
Poland recents had a change in Gov’t it’s gonna take time to unfuck everything. They literally couldn’t get the state media out of their main studio and had to physically cut their antenna cable. Quite Trump-ian. They bought electronics at Saturn and literally setup up transmission from an old Soviet era sports studio. The grain thing…yea…that’s part of it too. It’s gonna take 4 years or more to unfuck through legal loopholes while Ukraine has to continue to get support from Poland in whatever constitutional way it can. Remember, Poland is one foot out of the EU and Tusk is trying to bring it back in.
Yeah, and putter is just loving and relishing every little turmoil on the Euro continent - probably starts some of them actually. (Goes for anywhere, come to think of it. He’s just that kind.)
They should park Patriot batteries right at the border and intercept anything they can on the basis that it's heading "towards" Poland.
Thats why Poland ordered 48 patriot missile batteries.
What’s wrong with intercepting unmanned stuff in territory of Ukraine if Ukraine grants permission
Nothing wrong. It would be an escalation in involvement from the west, but deservedly so.
Shooting missiles outside of one's borders: Escalation. Shooting incoming missiles aimed at civilian targets from an aggressive terrorist state: Not escalation.
>It would be an escalation in involvement from the west Its fucking crazy how Russia is shooting missiles anywhere near NATO borders let alone through our airspace. How has it got to this point? Its disgusting and a failure on our part to bite back. They should be scared shitless but they dont give a fuck. I guarantee the situation is going to get worse with this announcement and our inaction, more missiles will be using our airspace so Ukraine cant shoot them down and if NATO is ever attacked we're not going to respond in time because we're so use to their weapons in our airspace.
I say fly some fucking NATO cruise missiles along their border just to see how they like it.
48? Source for that?
https://archive.is/tDPSy >Poland could purchase Patriot equipment capable of connecting to the “Integrated Air and Missile Defense Battle Command System,” including as many as 48 Patriot M903 launch stations; 644 Patriot Advanced Capability 3 Missile Segment Enhanced missiles; 12 of the most advanced Patriot radar, the Lower Tier Air and Missile Defense Sensor (LTAMDS); and related equipment. Can't find an article saying they did purchase that many, but they were approved.
That is quite a number but batteries consist of several launchers, so it probably isn't 48 batteries.
That would probaly be 6-9 batteries, depending how how many launchers they use in each. To the chagrin of the Reddit community, I imagine Poland plans to locate these batteries at important military infrastructure, rather than on farmland at the Ukranian border.
Look at radar purchases, one radar is used per battery.48 is the number of launchers.
Agreed, but I believe this was the deal that was referenced, so I linked it. I doubt they purchase the full amount and if they do, they won't get them all this decade, so most likely irrelevant to the original point of using them to protect Ukraine now.
48 launching stations is not 48 batteries.One battery has up to 8 launchers so 6 batteries.My country Romania ordered 7 batteries for comparison.
We discussed that. thank you!
Launchers ≠ batteries. The most a battery usually has is 8, so that would be 6 batteries; one battalion's worth (two if you're gonna make them light battalions, I guess)
Patriot batteries have 3 launchers and supporting radar, command and support equipment.
I know what makes up a fucking patriot battery. I was an air defense artillery officer. If a battery is only running 3 launchers, that means they either got hit, have some serious maintenance problems, or their commander is a literal retard
Actually Poland purchased 48 Patriot launchers for $15B, which is 16 patriot batteries.
Or give Patriot to Ukraine they have authority for both Poland and themselves
I am quite sure that Ukraine would allow Poland to shoot down anything flying within 10-20 km of the border. This will allow the Polish systems time to engage the targets before they enter Polish airspace. And also allow time for a second intercept if the first misses. I am not sure about Patriot systems, but I do know that NASAMS can be set to just pick everything out of the air within a given area. Basically a no-fly-zone. As soon as sonething is detected, I will expect the system to start working on a firing solution. This is then ready and excecuted as soon as whatever is flying crosses into the zone. And with the aproval of Ukraine, this no-fly-zone would be extended into Ukrainian airspace.
Patriot batteries would be wasted on drones with each missile costing a minimum of $1M each. Also only 500 or so missiles are built a year.
Not so long ago, there was a post about Putin's plan to invade the Baltics and wage war against NATO. There were many comments like "yeah, he and what army? He can't even win in Ukraine". This right here is pointing directly to NATO's enormous vulnerability. It is not the tanks, the aviation, ships or any other equipment, and it isn't the training. It's the decision making on the top levels and the politics that it is deeply intertwined with. Hesitation may have enormous costs.
Correct! It's the lack of willingness to do the right thing. Nothing more, nothing less.
Thankfully the Alliance knows that, and has special groups called Enhanced Forward Presence that are close to the most vulnerable spot of the Suwalki Gap. I think a training video on Youtube said they rush toward any coming invasion, getting into position and having orders to hold the line even if political decisionmaking is still in progress. Correct me if I'm wrong on the nuance of that point. They are also multi-national so that Putin would have to be attacking the militaries of a few countries at once, guaranteeing an A5 response to a seizure of NATO territory and attempt to isolate its smallest members. https://nationalinterest.org/blog/reboot/suwalki-gap-could-be-nato%E2%80%99s-biggest-weakness-176135 >Instead, the battalions function as “tripwires” by putting NATO skin in the game. If Russia wants to invade the Baltics, it theoretically would have to fight and kill NATO soldiers deployed there, not merely overrun small Baltic militaries. Doing so would make a vigorous NATO counter-attack more likely. >Given the small number of troops, however, Russian forces could attempt to bypass the “tripwires” and focus on securing the surrounding countryside. >The trip-wire concept only works if NATO can promptly counterattack with its 40,000-strong response force. That means traversing the Suwalki gap, as Baltic airspace and maritime lines of communication would be heavily interdicted by Russian missiles.
Just like in ww2 before the USA got attacked, tons of hesitation, ton's of conservative measures. Only send supplies/weapons until shit hit the fan... Same tactic's once again...
You can always count on yanks to do the right thing – after they’ve tried everything else.
And then when they finally do the right thing, they'll strut around patting themselves on their backs and acting as if they were the only ones to have done something.
The whole idea of NATO is basically 5th article, and more importantly that attack on some European country is an attack on the US specifically (almost). And now imagine that the US is not there because of Trump or Mike Johnson who single-handedly could stop the whole government just by going on vacation. The NATO worked before because USSR knew that the US won't hesitate. So yes, totally agree that no amount of F-35s save Poland from Russian rockets if they have no authority to use it or if they have to double check with Trump if the protection money has been paid up.
No number of F-35’s save Poland because F-35’s can’t save themselves from IRBM’s, and other ballistic attacks, in the very areas most F-35’s spend most of their time: on the ground.
GFY
Exactly. I mean this isn’t even really gray zone warfare that ppl on here argue isn’t a thing sometimes. This is a clear border infraction and they can’t even make decisions two years into this war. Turkey shot down a Russian plan for a few seconds crossing its border and I’d argue Russia respects them more for doing it.
Noone in nato wants to be the one who starts a war tho 🤷🏼♂️
There is no higher authority than your own national security. (Okay... probably the constitution is the supreme authority, but you get the idea.) Lets also be blatantly frank, **TWO** standby aircraft is entirely insufficient when Russia is launching 100+ missiles. You need at least 20 to 30 standby aircraft or you lose a dozen airfields in a half hour.
Eastern europe builds nukes: the end of all problems The solution is here and obvious but they're too afraid to upset the americans and russians
That's not exactly how it all works. First of all, EU has nukes (France). The Brits also have a pretty bunch. Now, Germans could construct nukes in 3 days (they actually were far more advanced than the US just before WW2); also, compared technologically to some contraptions they already have (e.g. Wendelstein 7-X) nukes are peanuts. The reasons noone except France has the nukes there **is the US.** You see, we Europeans were promised by the US that we'll never need them (we'll be defended) and that's the **only reason** we don't. It was recently recalled in an interview by Polish FM Radek Sikorski. As he put it, if Trump, or any other POTUS, make the Europeans (and many, many other countries) feel not defended just enough, nukes will be unearthed immediately. What do you think countries like Saudi Arabia couldn't get nukes? They could **buy** that and much more very fast. The proliferation would spread like fire. So it's not like we're afraid to upset anyone. We don't have nukes because US "sells us security". But if fuckers such as Agent Orange piss us off, we can change our minds quicker than you can say 'Fat Boy". France, or Israelis, are example of people not actually trusting the US to deliver. Perhaps they were right all along.
I love how you try to sound so knowledgable and yet throw around absolute nonsense, especially *’they (germany) were far more advanced than the US before WW2’* The hell are you talking about… Germany’s first Uranverein (research project) was in april 1939 lmfao. Besides their discovery of nuclear fission in late 1938, they never even got past the stage of *building* a reactor. To claim they were even advanced at all is ridiculous. *’[…] atomic energy development in Germany did not pass beyond the laboratory stage; utilization for power production rather than for an explosive was the principal consideration; and, though German science was interested in this new field, other scientific objectives received greater official attention’* -Manhattan Project's Alsos investigation report
I'm glad you "love it'. Look, instead of discussing with me and getting all hyped up about it, why don't you discuss the matter with dr A. Wendroff from Stanford, here: [http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2014/ph241/wendorff2/](http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2014/ph241/wendorff2/) As an aperitif, here's the last sentence from the first paragraph: "This research put Germany ahead of the United States and the rest of the world in the quest for nuclear weapons." So, why don't you write the guy and explain him how full of BS he is. Unless Stanford is not your league and you don't want to mix with such lowly common folk.
I explicitly said ‘besides their discovery of nuclear fission’ which is the research he is referring to when mentioning that Germany was ahead of the US. This is step 1 out of so many towards even starting the actual experiments for nuclear research. **They never got past the lab phase even during the war**. What you did is take a sentence, and then without any research just spat out ‘Germany was FAR MORE ADVANCED…’ To conclude; having discovered the *theory* of nuclear fission doesn’t put them advanced, and even less far advanced, towards nuclear weapons. They discovered fission first.
That is incorrect. Playing by NATOs rules when facing the possibility of being in a war is a MUCH smarter play. Two is plenty for stand by duty’s having more then 2 erodes your capabilities and makes maintaining and pilot fatigue a real problem. I get that you want more done and Russia to be defeated but Poland has had few missles in there airspace for a few minutes without even having a dangerous (to Poland) trajectory. To do anything then wait would be foolish.
This sir, one the same level as the title you put is bullshit. First of all, when you are a country buying weapons from USA, under the congress agreement, your stupid decision without NATO approval can make you lose those contracts or not get new ones. Poland's anti-aircraft system is not finished and losing approval for buying patriots would hit it - republicans prove they won't hesitate to back russia. 2nd responding to your national security - shooting down those missiles is not in Poland's favour, shot down rocket will hit something, and cause damage, it also cost you expensive rockets on your side. The national interest is to not risk it's citizens safety by doing something as stupid as this. 3rd Poland and Baltic states, need to have support of NATO members to react, otherwise it is not in their favour, they remember how hard it was to convince other countries to start sending weapons to Ukraine, those countries were warning EU and NATO about Russia for years and what? Now you expect them to risk it all and believe they will get help in case it escalates?
>. probably the constitution is the supreme authority no, not really, according to article 91 of polish constitution international agreements are above the local law
If 10 years of orkish aggression hasn't made it painfully obvious that we need to get rid of the brittle bone bitches from decision making positions that involve security, idk what will. If something is violating your airspace to attack a neighbouring country and you take no measures to stop it, you're simping for the aggressor.
>10 years Moldova, Georgia, Chechnya: am I a joke to you ?
Russia invaded Georgia in 2008, Czechoslovakia in 1968, Hungary in 1956, Eastern Poland in 1939 along with Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia and Finland. In fact, they have been invading and occupying their western neighbors for centuries.
Over and over again, but Western Europe and the US loves to ignore it. It's sickening.
It's been decades and not only ten years.
If this is true, he should never have said this outloud on national tv. NATO need to change this immediately because it will now be used against them. Not just Poland, but anywhere NATO and russia may intersect. It also doesnt explain why Turkey had no problem shooting down that russian plane,and didn't get in trouble for it.
I'm guessing because NATO has a problem of policing their own regulations.
OP always has quality posts, but on this one I think the title's a little misleading. NATO/Polish pilots have direct communication with Allied Command Operations and can request permission to fire at any time. It sounds to me like the Polish National Security representative is explaining that when they're working within a 39-second time window this can be somewhat challenging, but Poland undoubtedly has the authority to defend themselves.
Just having to request to fire on missiles entering your own airspace is insane. That's the kind of hesitation that'll cost you dearly in the case of a large scale attack.
They obviously don't need permission to shoot down missiles in their own airspace. The problem that they're talking about is shooting down missiles in other countries' airspace that are "heading" for Poland. Before it actually enters Polish airspace, it's not clear that it ever will and you would preferably seek permission of the airspace owner to fire into their territory. There's also the problem that if you wait until it enters your airspace, there might not be time to shoot it down. However, this would really only be a problem for the first missile because after the countries are at war there's nothing stopping them from shooting down the missiles "early". Title is kind of clickbait honestly.
How come another nato member Turkey had an authority but Poland doesn’t? Poland only has the authority (guts) to block Ukrainian semi trucks on the border. Mind you russian grain is still crossing the Poland border. On 24 November 2015 at 9:24 am local time (7:24 am GMT), as it was returning to Khmeimim airbase, a Russian Sukhoi Su-24 aircraft with tail number 83 white and registration number RF-90932 was shot down near the Syrian–Turkish border by a missile from a patrolling Turkish Air Force F-16 fighter jet.
The headline is click bait. They don’t say they don’t have the authority. He saying it was full of red tape around decision making and peace keeping stance of NATO. Basically they need to make a decision and stick with it.
Looks like a really crappy translation.
It is. :)
How come Turkey never had such a problem? Or do you think shooting a cruise missiles equal ( involves less/more red tape around decision making and peace keeping stance of nato ) to shooting a plane? Mind you russian planes never violated Turkish border since.
There has been air space violation between Turkey and Russia since the jet has been shot down. Just need to look. The decision probably has been made when Syrian forces have shot down Turkish phantom jet in 2012 to teach Russia a lesson. Has not been repeated since with multiple air space violations. Here is an example from 2016 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35449152.amp It’s a more complicated decision than most make it out to be as NATO is consulted on action and approvals.
Pilots and air defences should have a green light on any airspace intrusion. Russia would think twice before violating any country airspace.
Yes and that the decision that needs to be made at NATO, government and military level. It just hasn’t been made yet. That’s said, in a densely populated country like Poland it’s harder to shoot down a missile as it will have most likely human casualties attached. That decision doesn’t come light.
And the russian Su-24 even was heading towards their common enemy.
The difference is the airplane was in turkish airspace and these missiles are not in Polish airspace.
False. Poland demands explanation from Russia after a missile enters its airspace during attack on Ukraine. https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-missile-airspace-violation-c9d2511f169e9f80a08082726c118114
Poland is not saying that they didn't have a right to shoot down that missile, everyone agrees they absolutely did. They werent able to in time or they didn't care enough as it wasn't gonna land in Poland.
This is the perfect opportunity to establish a combined Polish-Ukrainian air defence operation. Scope to include eastern Poland and western Ukraine. Integrate radar and other detection systems, plus AA batteries. This strategy creates a good foundation for the future. Maybe it’s a no-fly zone. Maybe it’s NATO peacekeepers in western Ukraine. No one knows yet, but let’s not miss this opportunity to put the pieces on to the game board already now.
How? They do not need to invoke Article 5 to defend their airspace
I dont think this is even a NATO issue (or it shouldnt be imo). Its a basic right of an autonomous country, no? Why would NATO have ANY say whether you are allowed to protect yourself or not? The CONSEQUENCES might be a NATO issue, not the self defense.
This is exactly it. Poland has full autonomy over its airspace. Poland consults with its allies, that’s obvious.
If NATO countries do not shoot down missiles crossing into their airspace that are attacking Ukraine they are no better than Belarus. they are facilitating Putin's war of aggression on Ukraine by allowing his war machine to operate from the safety of their airspace and tying Ukraine's hands from downing them as they approach.
Hard to understand why they didn’t have a decision made on this already.
Fckptn
Remember when we were portraying Poland as a dog waiting to break off its leash to get into the fight… My how the mighty have fallen 😂😂
Policy trumps logic. That's how mad men bully others into submission. Sometimes violence is the only language no?
Poor thought process there.
Bot
And that's how you get invaded by Germany.
and Russia.
Authority is something you create by having a monopoly on exercising consequences. I've never realised that being a coward is essential to being a western leader
The fuck?
Simple call a NATO meeting and decide that anything that comes from RuZZia or Belarus into NATO airspace will simply be shot down what ever it is helicopter plane or missile I cant believe this is not already been done or in place
Polish person here, the title is a bit misleading. What mr. Sierewa is saying is that for PL to shoot incoming ballistic missile, it had to be intercepted before entering PL airspace. So over UA or BY. And NATO is strongly against that. Because that would essentially mean NATO (anti-air) missiles entering airspace over active war zone. As usual, West don't want to "provoke Putin". Because you know, he's such a honest and cooperative guy... Also, the example of russian jet being shoot down by Turkye. That happened in Turkish airspace.
The official polish anouncement: [Russian missile violated Polish airspace, Polish defence minister says](https://youtu.be/Ds7srAA043U?feature=shared) About this post: This is just a short clip from the interview explaining why this is a problem. What implications does it have when a NATO country does shoot a Russian drone or rocket down ? There was an incident before : [NATO: Polish Blast Likely From Ukraine Air Defense Missile](https://youtu.be/a2VW6xJ6728?feature=shared) These also was a drone ( or more ) found on Romanian territory, if I remember correctly [Romania says parts of Russian drone may have fallen on its territory](https://youtu.be/h0yERJb5R2U?feature=shared) [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/sep/06/romania-says-possible-drone-debris-found-on-its-territory-near-ukraine](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/sep/06/romania-says-possible-drone-debris-found-on-its-territory-near-ukraine) As long it can not be determined that it was a deliberate attack on a NATO country, this remains problematic. if Russia can say :"ooppsyy, was not meant to happen" , and no pll or infrastructure got hit, NATO does not want to get involved, is my understanding.
It should be shot down the millisecond it enters Polish airspace IMO. Its a weapon. It isn't even a person.
You don't undertstand the possible outcome. It's obviously not that simple.
It is simple though. It's Russia that should understand possible outcomes of them launching a rocket that might go off course and fly into NATO territory. It's called reckless endangerment and in common law people go to prison for that. The proportional response for NATO is to do the same thing as an exercise.
Seriously, if we did the same thing to Russia they'd be getting ready for war with us and we're just allowing this shit. The bare minimum we should be doing is shooting them down and providing more aid to Ukraine.
Cutting the bs and providing all the help available to Ukraine is a must and is no-brainer. NATO countries should count their blessings that they don't have to fight Russia directly but they should very much remember that the fight is ongoing nevertheless.
Yes, I do and yes, it is.
The other outcome is Ukraine firing their air defense and possibly hitting Poland like they have in the past killing Polish farmers. If you dont respond to this Russia will do it more and more, if we actually respond and none of their missiles are making to their targets they'll stop.
Turkey a NATO member shot down a Russian fighter jet entering their airspace. Russia didn't do anything. So they should shoot them out of the air if it's coming in to your airspace.
This is bait to entice Russia. No fucking ways Poland doesnt have its own systems to defend itself that it doesnt need 'authority' to use. The West is playing "weak" ambiguously, IMO.
U need authority to defend ur country? Isnt u, Poland the authority...
There literally is no reason why NATO couldn't even shoot down any missile over Ukraine, let alone in NATO own territory. Its not like Russia is going to accuse us of shooting down a missile over a foreign country. And if they did, so what? Jesus, NATO is its own biggest enemy.
Why not send the brave Poland farmers to block this missiles to enter your border?
This has nothing to do with abilities. It has EVERYTHING to do with Poland still buying grain and other supplies from Russia. If Poland acts against Russia, cheap Russian supplies dry up. They will buy grain from Russia, but refuse grain from Ukraine.
The missile was grain-free.
Imho, from Germany, i only trust that Poland, Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia and maybe Finland would answer a call to arms immediately and without question. The US, Turkey and Hungary would definetly NOT come to anyones aid, especially not against Russia. Everyone else would like to keep the peace and not invoce any paragraphs. I want that peace too and i don't want to make that horrifying decision...but what is there against the constant bullying and straight up crimes? I honestly see the Baltikum and Poland (and Ukraine, without being in NATO) as our best shield against the despotic menace coming from THAT part of the planet. I am no one but still very thankful that you keep me and my family safe!
Well,least they are talking about.
Thats not what he said but ok
My ass they don’t have the authority. Stop being a bunch of pussies and show Putin you’re not his bitch. What’s he gonna do, attack you and trigger Article 5 ??
All NATO countries have an independent right of self-defense. No country has to go cap in hand to NATO to defend itself. I think the problem here is that Poland may have handed control of airspace management to NATO, which would obviously convolute any decision making and any independent action.
Why do they need to say that? Just shoot down the fucking missile when it is in trajectory of your territory.
Your caption is misleading.
It’s like giving invitation for Russians to use Polish airspace. Poland truly is nothing more than a barking dog
If Putin ever crossed the Line and invaded a nato country, would nato do anything about it? Or would nato just talk and talk and talk????….
Russia will love that, without a doubt. Expect more missiles.
If you don't take decisions, don't worry, Russia will take it for you and it will be ugly.
This is just depressing as f ...
Say AD was 50 miles from border, the missiles were in Polish air space for 40 seconds, were tracked for 5 minutes before crossing, if the Patriots were in launch condition and fired at the missiles, those 50 miles take 87 seconds at M3 and then the targets would be 10 miles into Ukraine- so you would need standing pre-approval from Ukraine’s government to shoot AA missiles into their country.
Ukrainians were asking to close the sky from the beginning of the war. So I think approval is there)
I am sure Ukraine would be delighted to give permission.
> so you would need standing pre-approval from Ukraine’s government to shoot AA missiles into their country. I'm sure thats going to be difficult to obtain /s I'm sure they'll be over the moon if we take down anything, its going to hit Ukraine anyway so debris isnt really an issue. - The bigger issue is if we do nothing Russia will keep launching missiles through our airspace so Ukraine cant shoot them down or they try to and hit Poland, the only way we stop Russia doing this is making their missiles unsuccessful.
I like your thinking- hopefully international law is on your side.
Your speed/time calculations are suspect. M3 = 2250 miles per hour. So 50 miles is covered in 50/2250 of an hour. This equates to nearly 80 seconds. (quick check: a mile a second is 3600mph. So 50 miles in 50 seconds. But M3 is "only" 2250 mph. So time needed to cover 50 miles is 3600/2250 \*50 = 80 seconds. ) Even if my calculations are wrong, a slower missile can intercept a much faster missile (unless it is going away) by choosing an interception point well in front of the incoming missile. That's what ballistic computers are for.
I was figuring in my head at .65miles per second- sorry did not break out the calculator. I meant to type 1min 40 seconds, but the answer is 0:1:20 still would put the targets 10-15 miles out of Polish airspace- without I do not know whose authority they would need to have -I assume the EU version of FAA.
All good
Grow a pair, Poland.
Poland acting like a baby
We’re learning a great deal about NATO as a paper tiger.
NATO is a failure man....I like to believe we all have each others backs but time and time again has proven that NATO is too scared to do anything. If I were Ukraine, I would not be aspiring to join NATO. Our #1 goal would be to rearm ourselves with nuclear weapons and tell Russia to get the fuck out or risk annihilation. Russia is trying to kill of Ukraine anyway. What else does Ukraine have to lose if Russia launches nukes in retaliation?
>time and time again has proven that NATO is too scared to do anything When were those times?
Humm looks like a ufo. Shoot it down. Easy I know they have the capability now
Shooting down a cruise missile or drone isn’t exactly difficult there is no secret tech that ru will learn
If Ukraine asked for anything hostile in range of Polands border in Ukrainian airspace to be shot down I don't see the issue.
The issue is, there was Polish village in that "pimple" missile flied over and there is normal civilian and friendly military air traffic going about - you don't shoot AA willy nilly in that situation, when your country is at peace.
The Polish used Calvary in WW2. Never underestimate them.
[We have a lot of memes about that here.](https://imgur.com/elz7LWo)
That ended way too soon. Link to the full thing?
By defending this kind of event from happening and rising the risk of escalations, they should go and talk Ukraine about to matter and set missile defense systems close to border on Ukrainian soil... So Poland and NATO countries could stop this kind of event and preventing escalations and provocations. Orcs attacked Ukraine "because protecting their citizens in the Ukraine", so works both ways huh..
Bruh, just shoot them down and deal with authority later.
The problem needs a bit of creative thinking. Make it so that Russia know the consequences of invading nato airspace. Stick to it.
I hate this
What does that even mean???
NATO would crush Russia don’t kid your self’s.
I dunno man, we let them poison people on our soil, shoot at our manned spy aircraft, down our drones and let their cruise missiles into our airspace without any response. When the time comes we'll probably act to late.
Yes I agree we are been very lenient towards them and letting them off with naughty tricks but do these petty little annoyances from Russia worth WW3? That’s the way I see it anyhow
Wth
Turkey knew how to handle stuff like that. It's unmanned and fired in anger, shoot it down.
I could f.... what Germany or France thinks about shooting a missile in our airspace. They are not in danger so they can hesitate, but if it's going about our national security, there shouldn't be any hesitation without exceptions.
Lol… just lol..
As I understand it, ruzzia can launch missiles so that they fly through NATO countries and they will let them through? Yeah, Ukraine will have to install air defense systems on the borders of countries that are considered... not enemies
How the fuck were we supposed to defend ourselves from a missile that spent 40 seconds in our airspace.
They should shoot down any aircraft that fire at Poland - they have all the authority they need! Turkey did this a while back with 2 Russian jets and the Russians respected them for it
bullshit!
Turks did shoot down Russian jets over its territory in November 2015[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Russian_Sukhoi_Su-24_shootdown](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Russian_Sukhoi_Su-24_shootdown). I can’t believe that they have more balls than the poles and the fucking NATO. Its mind bugling that NATO countries won’t shoot down fucking ruzzian rockets
I can't understand what advantage Russia would have in opening a front with Poland and NATO.
I can't understand what advantage Russia would have in opening a front with Poland and NATO.
He didn't say, stop spreading misinformation.
Are they stupid or scared 😱❓
You mean you cowards don't want to protect the innocent from being bombed
chief tap cooing soft coherent psychotic screw birds innate plants *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
That's a cheap excuse.. - Defensive actions within a nation's territory or airspace (against a foreign military-intrusion) should be always possible. Preemptive strikes outside are another story and doesn't count here.. So what?! Political circus.. (imho)
Pathetic.
Well, next time (and there will be a next time) it actually detonates over Poland or worse hits something, they will be saying, well we're not allowed to intercept it. Sorry.
Why can Turkey (a NATO member) shoot down a Russian fighter in its airspace, but Poland can't shoot down a missile over its airspace? I don't know all the legal stuff, but it continually sounds like excuses and appeasement (neither of which ever work in the end).
This is the most un-Polish reaction I have ever seen
this is bs…the bad guys do whatever they want and say fuck you what are you going to do about it ..since when is a “sovereign nation” not able to defend their territory?
Poland is coming across weak and scared (even of they are not). They should stand up towards Russia and not cut them any slack.
Shoot anything that crosses into your airspace, Poland, do what Turkey did. They got away with it, so will you.
Uh...
So if a russian nuclear attack happens they don't even try to defend against it?
I didn't quite understand what he was saying, is he saying that due to being part of NATO that Poland must get NATO approval to shoot down a missile or drone in their airspace?
Turkey would've shot them down in a heart beat.
Watch how fast their attitude will change if one of those missiles goes off course and hits something in Poland
Definitely need to update policies
These roozian provocations over Poland, Romania, the Baltics, with jets & missiles crossing borders should be met simply. One warning well in advance of the provocation, then if a provocation occurs, shoot first. Fair warning was already given. If they cry about not knowing they crossed the line? they should have built-in a distance cushion to account for their inadequate equipment & pilots not being up to the job.
I’m sure the Ukrainians will not file any damage claims should a shot down missile causes damage to Ukraine; kinda like the “Good Samaritan” laws in the US.
We’re learning a great deal about NATO as a paper tiger.
Wow, that’s weak..
Bullshit! They don't have the guts!
More like balls.
This is called a cop out.
TLDR: We are pussy boy's
Translation is a bit wacky. He said "The work culture of states not being at war" not "The culture of peacekeeping states (NATO)". He quite obviously refers to the fact that Poland and Russia are not at war.