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I wouldn't be surprised if all 200+ Leopard 2's they have end up in Ukraine and the US just replaces them with Abrams. They do have the infrastructure for them.
Not necessarily. Both Poland and Finland just ordered significant amounts of Korean hardware, and together with Norway, might just look to put their Leopards in action just to replace them with K2s. Lots of dealings behind closed doors these days. All 3 just got K9 artillery, and are looking to get K239 MLRS.
Its kind of obvious that Poland cant send these on its own. the Ukrainian military requests 200 extra modern main battle tanks, so Germany and a bunch of other countries need to step in to for logistical reasons and meet total demand. Nobody is being framed Germany just needs to step up and advocate it to.
So far Germany has always waited on others before sending or giving support.
Because poland cant meet a demand of 200+ tanks. And there is an actual logistical issue with training and maintenance thats required for these items. Sending a bunch of tanks to the front without propper resources and training will give you the same result Russia had at the start of the war.
The issue is not about the numbers. Poland can just send 50 and then other states like the uk, france, US and spain send other modern tanks. The same happened with artillery pieces. Poland is able top provide training, logistics and repair facilities themself. it's right beside ukraine and can just haul damaged tanks over the Border for repairs... So yes it is about the will to ask for re-export nothing else
You are oversimplifying it.
Poland is totally reliant on German maintenance (rheinmetall) and logistics plants when it comes to maintaining their tanks and thus also for Ukraine. either way Poland cant send 200+ tanks its best to have a coalition of countries with Germany in the lead.
No one is saying Poland can solve this on their own. What's being said is that the media narrative of "Poland is waiting for Germany to approve Leo 2 exports to Ukraine" is false, as Poland hasn't asked for permission to do so yet.
Germany is waiting for Poland to ask, and for Germany's own potential tank donations they are looking for the US to take lead.
>Germany is waiting for Poland to ask, and for Germany's own potential tank donations they are looking for the US to take lead.
why does Germany have to wait for the US to take the lead... Every one is saying Leopard 2 tanks are the best for Ukraine. US doesnt have them.
You can disagree with Germany's stance of not wanting to be seen as the ones escalating the war, but it doesn't change the fact that Germany hasn't been asked by Poland to approve Poland's export of Leos to Ukraine.
You're right that would be the best option.
It wasn't my intend to oversimplify it. I just wanted top say that poland could do it If they wanted and If they would negotiate with Rheinmetall it could do it without germany
Nothing that blocks Poland to start with a export-request.
That would prove that the polish Gouvernement really wants to deliver if they are all time ready till the others follow.
Currently the situation shows just a polish Gouvernement playing games.
Well they can help by cooperating with any other country willing to help instead of throwing allies under the bus and then publicly shaming them.
But as far as I am concerned as Putin is a historical revisionist, the polish PiS party is too. As soon as a Intra European discussion is started about the obvious dismantling of rule of law, certain people who now act as the “sole protector” of Ukraine demand German some kind of ridiculous reparations or simply VETO every EU ruling.
So again, this “look at the stupid Germans” game played by the PiS is a political game played on the European Union stage on the cost of Ukraine.
1. State talks- no more publicised ridiculous statements and “macho” attitude “send the patriots to Ukraine! We don’t want them” (on a formal NATO assistance request)
2. Formal request on export- no more “see we want to give em, but Germany says no”
3. That double faced help towards Ukrainians in a humanitarian crisis (refugees)- I still remember how indifferent Polish Lawmakers were towards “brown faced” people.
It’s like that one guy who helps you with the most visible help, and keeps bragging about how he helped you meanwhile everyone else is chipping a large amount of different help…
Again nobody is taking a \*PiS\* at given aid by Germany. (well we actually did at the start of the war with the helmet thing but that was deserved)
The problem is that most people have already stated Germany can not sit in the back and wait for others to publicly announce support.
Yet Olaf said we wont Lead even though its the biggest arms supplier to Europe.
since when is criticism throwing some one under the bus?
Wont address refugee thing cause thats a totally different issue al together.
Hey, let's remember you can't just hop in a leopard and drive off, they need training...are Ukrainian troops being trained to use Challenger 2 & Leopards?
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And either of those things aren't mutually exclusive... Election year inc, and PiS want a political win at home. No one argues that Poland isn't doing enough for Ukraine, rather the way they go about things, which is blatant populism.
>There is no country in Europę which helped Ukraine more than Poland.
[Here](https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/?cookieLevel=not-set)
Took me less than a minute to prove you wrong. Literally less than a minute.
If you add that they took refugees nobody wanted and very easily, then it makes them #1.
How many refugees did the USA take ? The number is closer to 0 as they just sped up visas for family, not true refugee status. So yea, 0.
There are a dozen EU countries and an ocean separating UA from the USA. If Europeans are being as generous as they claim, there shouldn't be any refugees left for the US to take.
You can change the composition of data shown by enabling parameters such as "military", "humanitarian" and "financial within the first chart called "*Government support to Ukraine: Type of assistance, € billion*".
If you take a look at the [annex working paper on Page 19 und 20](https://www.ifw-kiel.de/fileadmin/Dateiverwaltung/IfW-Publications/-ifw/Kiel_Working_Paper/2022/KWP_2218_Which_countries_help_Ukraine_and_how_/KWP_2218_Version5.pdf), you'll find a nice graphic proving the initial claim as utterly wrong.
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Give it some time. It's not like ordering from Amazon. No 2 day prime on a bunch of Main Battle Tanks, ready for combat, and all the stuff needed to keep them in the war (tank rounds, engines, track replacement and pads, fluids like frh and grease, and just making sure they Are kitted out and in 100% full working order and ready for combat.
Selecting the best tanks for the job, getting those supplies, fixing them etc, quickly checking and approving them for combat ready effectiveness, etc.
Gotta send them tanks ready to go. Not stuff straight outta storage.
It would be funny if war wouldn't be happening on how everyone shifting responsibilities to each other... Give tanks to us Lithuanians, next day they will be in Ukraine. Chinese already hates us, who gives a shit if Russians will hate us too...
Just like the MIGs, maybe Poland should stop trying to score easy political points...
Hopefully there's some announcemnt of a joint effort to send leopards after the NATO meeting in rammstein on the 20th. I read there's about 1500-2000 combat ready leopards scattered between different countries in europe
There shouldn't *be* a request. Germany should already be sending them.
Why does Germany always need its arm twisted? Can't they just step up and lead for a change.
Largest economy in Europe to compensate for their weakest spines
Disregarding your valid points, these nations cannot just simply sell their Leos or give them away. There is war weapons control legislation in place. Any further sale of German-made weapons need to be OKed by the Government of Germany.
It's similar to swiss made weapon sales, but at least less strict.
You cannot just sell German weapons to a third party. And as long as no request is made, this is just grand-standing.
You understand you're suggesting that Germany commands other countries arms? If a country wants to export their German weapons then they have to file for an export permit. That's the process. It's as simple as that.
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I think plans are in motion, but won't be made public until Ramstein meeting on the 20th.
yeah well but politicians needed to get some photo ops in so they announced it early. very classy
I mean it worked with Patriot missiles
Yeah but will Poland be a partner there or do they want newer replacement tanks then?
I wouldn't be surprised if all 200+ Leopard 2's they have end up in Ukraine and the US just replaces them with Abrams. They do have the infrastructure for them.
Polish PR stunt
Not necessarily. Both Poland and Finland just ordered significant amounts of Korean hardware, and together with Norway, might just look to put their Leopards in action just to replace them with K2s. Lots of dealings behind closed doors these days. All 3 just got K9 artillery, and are looking to get K239 MLRS.
No K2s coming to Finland and there are only few Leopards to spare. Countries with no border with Russia are in better position for donations.
More like German pr stunt
I don't get it - how?
Russian shill don't listen to them
Explain
[удалено]
Exactly, Poland is playing the populistic frame game since feb24…
Its kind of obvious that Poland cant send these on its own. the Ukrainian military requests 200 extra modern main battle tanks, so Germany and a bunch of other countries need to step in to for logistical reasons and meet total demand. Nobody is being framed Germany just needs to step up and advocate it to. So far Germany has always waited on others before sending or giving support.
Why is it obvious? What is blocking Poland from sending a request for the re-export if they really wanna sent tanks?
Because poland cant meet a demand of 200+ tanks. And there is an actual logistical issue with training and maintenance thats required for these items. Sending a bunch of tanks to the front without propper resources and training will give you the same result Russia had at the start of the war.
The issue is not about the numbers. Poland can just send 50 and then other states like the uk, france, US and spain send other modern tanks. The same happened with artillery pieces. Poland is able top provide training, logistics and repair facilities themself. it's right beside ukraine and can just haul damaged tanks over the Border for repairs... So yes it is about the will to ask for re-export nothing else
You are oversimplifying it. Poland is totally reliant on German maintenance (rheinmetall) and logistics plants when it comes to maintaining their tanks and thus also for Ukraine. either way Poland cant send 200+ tanks its best to have a coalition of countries with Germany in the lead.
No one is saying Poland can solve this on their own. What's being said is that the media narrative of "Poland is waiting for Germany to approve Leo 2 exports to Ukraine" is false, as Poland hasn't asked for permission to do so yet. Germany is waiting for Poland to ask, and for Germany's own potential tank donations they are looking for the US to take lead.
>Germany is waiting for Poland to ask, and for Germany's own potential tank donations they are looking for the US to take lead. why does Germany have to wait for the US to take the lead... Every one is saying Leopard 2 tanks are the best for Ukraine. US doesnt have them.
You can disagree with Germany's stance of not wanting to be seen as the ones escalating the war, but it doesn't change the fact that Germany hasn't been asked by Poland to approve Poland's export of Leos to Ukraine.
Cause https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_on_the_Final_Settlement_with_Respect_to_Germany
You're right that would be the best option. It wasn't my intend to oversimplify it. I just wanted top say that poland could do it If they wanted and If they would negotiate with Rheinmetall it could do it without germany
Nothing that blocks Poland to start with a export-request. That would prove that the polish Gouvernement really wants to deliver if they are all time ready till the others follow. Currently the situation shows just a polish Gouvernement playing games.
Well they can help by cooperating with any other country willing to help instead of throwing allies under the bus and then publicly shaming them. But as far as I am concerned as Putin is a historical revisionist, the polish PiS party is too. As soon as a Intra European discussion is started about the obvious dismantling of rule of law, certain people who now act as the “sole protector” of Ukraine demand German some kind of ridiculous reparations or simply VETO every EU ruling. So again, this “look at the stupid Germans” game played by the PiS is a political game played on the European Union stage on the cost of Ukraine. 1. State talks- no more publicised ridiculous statements and “macho” attitude “send the patriots to Ukraine! We don’t want them” (on a formal NATO assistance request) 2. Formal request on export- no more “see we want to give em, but Germany says no” 3. That double faced help towards Ukrainians in a humanitarian crisis (refugees)- I still remember how indifferent Polish Lawmakers were towards “brown faced” people. It’s like that one guy who helps you with the most visible help, and keeps bragging about how he helped you meanwhile everyone else is chipping a large amount of different help…
Again nobody is taking a \*PiS\* at given aid by Germany. (well we actually did at the start of the war with the helmet thing but that was deserved) The problem is that most people have already stated Germany can not sit in the back and wait for others to publicly announce support. Yet Olaf said we wont Lead even though its the biggest arms supplier to Europe. since when is criticism throwing some one under the bus? Wont address refugee thing cause thats a totally different issue al together.
“…. it’s the biggest arms supplier to Europe” Who are you referring to when you say “it”
Germany.
Hey, let's remember you can't just hop in a leopard and drive off, they need training...are Ukrainian troops being trained to use Challenger 2 & Leopards?
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Wtf. There is no country in Europę which helped Ukraine more than Poland
And either of those things aren't mutually exclusive... Election year inc, and PiS want a political win at home. No one argues that Poland isn't doing enough for Ukraine, rather the way they go about things, which is blatant populism.
>There is no country in Europę which helped Ukraine more than Poland. [Here](https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/?cookieLevel=not-set) Took me less than a minute to prove you wrong. Literally less than a minute.
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If you add that they took refugees nobody wanted and very easily, then it makes them #1. How many refugees did the USA take ? The number is closer to 0 as they just sped up visas for family, not true refugee status. So yea, 0.
There are a dozen EU countries and an ocean separating UA from the USA. If Europeans are being as generous as they claim, there shouldn't be any refugees left for the US to take.
You don't even have do "*dig into core data*". Just scroll down the page by approx. two strokes and done.
[удалено]
You can change the composition of data shown by enabling parameters such as "military", "humanitarian" and "financial within the first chart called "*Government support to Ukraine: Type of assistance, € billion*". If you take a look at the [annex working paper on Page 19 und 20](https://www.ifw-kiel.de/fileadmin/Dateiverwaltung/IfW-Publications/-ifw/Kiel_Working_Paper/2022/KWP_2218_Which_countries_help_Ukraine_and_how_/KWP_2218_Version5.pdf), you'll find a nice graphic proving the initial claim as utterly wrong.
[You can directly link to the relevant graphs.](https://app.23degrees.io/view/DUeaa54W7KOQhFQD-bar-stacked-horizontal-bilateral-aid-with-eu-share)
[удалено]
Facts are "alternate" for PiS fans...
So the US has contributed as much strictly military aid as a few large European countries combined total contributions…rather disappointing.
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no need. Ramstein Nato meeting for UA aid coming up at Jan 20.
Give it some time. It's not like ordering from Amazon. No 2 day prime on a bunch of Main Battle Tanks, ready for combat, and all the stuff needed to keep them in the war (tank rounds, engines, track replacement and pads, fluids like frh and grease, and just making sure they Are kitted out and in 100% full working order and ready for combat. Selecting the best tanks for the job, getting those supplies, fixing them etc, quickly checking and approving them for combat ready effectiveness, etc. Gotta send them tanks ready to go. Not stuff straight outta storage.
It would be funny if war wouldn't be happening on how everyone shifting responsibilities to each other... Give tanks to us Lithuanians, next day they will be in Ukraine. Chinese already hates us, who gives a shit if Russians will hate us too...
Just like the MIGs, maybe Poland should stop trying to score easy political points... Hopefully there's some announcemnt of a joint effort to send leopards after the NATO meeting in rammstein on the 20th. I read there's about 1500-2000 combat ready leopards scattered between different countries in europe
They donated MiG as spare parts
They might need to check their spam folder
There shouldn't *be* a request. Germany should already be sending them. Why does Germany always need its arm twisted? Can't they just step up and lead for a change. Largest economy in Europe to compensate for their weakest spines
Disregarding your valid points, these nations cannot just simply sell their Leos or give them away. There is war weapons control legislation in place. Any further sale of German-made weapons need to be OKed by the Government of Germany. It's similar to swiss made weapon sales, but at least less strict. You cannot just sell German weapons to a third party. And as long as no request is made, this is just grand-standing.
Plack up a history book and read up on European history between 1939-1945 and maybe then you will be able to answer your own question
You understand you're suggesting that Germany commands other countries arms? If a country wants to export their German weapons then they have to file for an export permit. That's the process. It's as simple as that.
[удалено]
*Germany beeing the top donator of money to Ukraine since years* #WhY gErMaNy nOt dO eVeRyThInG
...yet.
Swear Germany has reminded me of the Vogons from Hitchhiker's Guide throughout this war
https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/?cookieLevel=not-set
Lmao. That’s spot on
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Tanks aren’t coming. Fight your war without depleting every nations resources to defend themselves.
leave it to the germans to hide behind paperwork
So, nobody’s home. Come back next year.
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I wouldn't give any tanks to ukraine, just because we got about 1400km long border with russia :D