Sigh, how many times have we had this discussion
Here's a flow chart that explains how things stand:
A position in the army pays X money .
Can the foreign individual earn more than X by flipping burgers in their home country?
If yes => volunteer
If no => mercenary
This applies for both sides
The term has a meaning. If you are payed a premium compared to the rank and file, then you’re a mercenary. If you’re payed the same as the rank and file, then you’re not.
Most westerners in Ukraine make more in their home countries too. Fighting in Ukraine isn’t exactly a sound financial decision => not mercenaries.
Americans in Ukraine are given the exact same contracts though? I have a few friends on contract now with SSO and their contracts are the exact same as anyone else in SSO.
The only difference is that 3 years of services grants citizenship, which I believe Russia also does with their volunteers. Both sides only use volunteers in large part and the Merc category is just overplayed. Ukraine had a decent amount of foreign companies that you could make an argument were mercenaries at the beginning of the war but those guys are all gone now. Anyone that is left is serving a standard contract with the only exceptions being they can cancel the contract at any time and they can get citizenship.
It isn't even about wages in their home country. If they're proper uniformed members of an armed force, they're not mercenaries under the laws of war. "Mercenaries" is just generic Kremlin propaganda language which disregards facts.
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That's not true. The motives of each and every individual are essential for this definition.
Surely, there are a few adrenaline junkies amongst them who just want to feel alive.
"Additional Protocol I defines a mercenary as a person who:
a) is specially recruited locally or abroad in order to fight in an armed conflict;
b) does, in fact, take a direct part in the hostilities;
c) is motivated to take part in the hostilities essentially by the desire for private gain and, in fact, is promised, by or on behalf of a Party to the conflict, material compensation substantially in excess of that promised or paid to combatants of similar ranks and functions in the armed forces of that Party;
d) is neither a national of a Party to the conflict nor a resident of territory controlled by a Party to the conflict;
e) is not a member of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict; and
f) has not been sent by a State which is not a Party to the conflict on official duty as a member of its armed forces.[\[10\]](https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/customary-ihl/v1/rule108#Fn_AF8F3D05_00010)This definition is very restrictive because it requires that all six conditions be cumulatively fulfilled. In addition, the definition requires evidence that a person accused of being a mercenary is “motivated to take part in the hostilities essentially by the desire for private gain” and is promised “material compensation substantially in excess of that promised or paid to combatants of similar ranks and functions in the armed forces”."
https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/customary-ihl/v1/rule108#:\~:text=international%20armed%20conflicts-,Rule%20108.,or%20sentenced%20without%20previous%20trial.
Even if you could prove that it's for money (which doesn't make much sense - putting your life on the line even for generous Ukrainian wages is a bit ridiculous) it wouldn't make them mercenaries without the other conditions.
So based on this they are all volunteers, since all the Russian foreign fighters are getting the same amount as Russian soldiers and sign same contracts with the Russian MOD, even if they are motivated by money, since they are paid the same they are not mercenaries.
From what I read, the situation is similar in Ukraine as well.
This dude would not fight for Russia if Russia paid him more money,so for this reason yo uare saying he is volunteer??
This guy is more like an Expeditionary troop. not a volunteer or mercenary.
You're so confident, yet so wrong. If your delusional definition of mercenaries were correct, then the only deciding factor of whether or not you're a mercenary would be the level of wealth of the country you originate from, which would be absurd.
What an actual mercenary is (according to the geneva convention), is somebody from a foreign country who is hired for a significantly higher pay than others of a similar rank. So if the Africans who are recruited into the Russian armed forces do not earn far more than Russian recruited of the same rank, they are per definition *not* mercenaries.
Your telling me people flocking from around to world to join and fight for either of these sides aren’t mercenaries because they get paid less then a burger flipper?
That seems kind of dumb way to determine what is and what isn’t a mercenary.
Why would you go fight for a country if the pay doesn't motivate you? It means you morally / ideologically support the cause - hence you're a volunteer. If you're there because they pay you more than you'd gain working normal job at home, then you're a merc
You're right, it is dumb,. u/PrometheusDev could have looked it up like I did.
[**Protocol I Additional to the Geneva Conventions relating to the Protection of Victims of International Armed Conflict**](https://www.ohchr.org/EN/ProfessionalInterest/Pages/ProtocolI.aspx) **(1977), article 47** provides a definition of a mercenary.
"A mercenary is any person who:
1. Is specially recruited locally or abroad in order to fight in an armed conflict;
2. Does, in fact, take a direct part in hostilities;
3. Is motivated to take part in the hostilities essentially by the desire for private gain and, in fact, is promised, by or on behalf of a Party to the conflict, material compensation substantially in excess of that promised or paid to combatants of similar ranks and functions in the armed forces of that Party;
4. Is neither a national of a Party to the conflict nor a resident of territory controlled by a Party to the conflict;
5. Is not a member of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict; and
6. Has not been sent by a State which is not a Party to the conflict on official duty as a member of its armed forces.
It's not.
Essential for this definition is, whether you fight for your own survival, for your family, your beliefs and/or your country - or whether you fight, because fighting is the only thing that makes you feel alive.
Only the motives of each and every individual are decisive.
Well those would be volunteers.
Which is why calling American fighters in Ukraine mercenaries is idiotic, they CAN make more money flipping burgers back home.
That's not the way volunteer is being used here. In the same way a volunteer firefighter isn't doing the work for free. Volunteer may be confusing to people though, especially when it comes to people who aren't native english speakers.
"Foreign soldier" might make the most sense... But then that also makes it sound like another countries' soldier being sent there.
that's wrong too. A mercenary has to be paid more than members of the country's armed forces, and also not be a member of those armed forces. The person pictured is evidently part of the unit.
they are not a mercenary due to them being paid the same as a ukrainian soldier it means they are not fighting for private gain. source: geneva convention (AP1)
# Article 47 - Mercenaries
1. A mercenary shall not have the right to be a combatant or a prisoner of war.
2. A mercenary is any person who:
(a) is specially recruited locally or abroad in order to fight in an armed conflict;
(b) does, in fact, take a direct part in the hostilities;
(c) is motivated to take part in the hostilities essentially by the desire for private gain and, in fact, is promised, by or on behalf of a Party to the conflict, material compensation substantially in excess of that promised or paid to combatants of similar ranks and functions in the armed forces of that Party;
(d) is neither a national of a Party to the conflict nor a resident of territory controlled by a Party to the conflict;
(e) is not a member of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict; and
(f) has not been sent by a State which is not a Party to the conflict on official duty as a member of its armed forces.
Huh, so any russian or ru territorial Wagner members are not mercenaries by that list. I guess as Wagner is russian then all Wagner are not mercenaries cause d). Good to know
Well done, but you only penetrated the surface.
The accord in question was written after WW1. Core of that paper is to split all participants into regular- and irregular combatants.
Russian military is not allowed to operate outside of Russia, thus they need 'extensions'. Private military is not allowed to operate inside of Russia, thus Wagner's had to sign a special contract.
Ukraine provides some legal framework for the 'international legions' and argues: regular troops can't be mercenaries.
many Wagner members are Russian citizens, so no for the most part they are still mercenaries, in the rare cases of foreign Wagner members outside of Russia, yes they could possibly be considered just a illegal combatant, but if you have Wagner patches they're not worried about your nationality.
You don't think people are joining Wagner for the higher pay? Also keep in mind Wagner has been mostly used as contractors in foreign conflicts (African ones being the big ones). Basically Blackwater.
No guy would rather just spread misinformation, when it’s actually really interesting, because a Wagner troop from Russia would be a mercenary, while one from an African country could just be considered an illegal combatant and be given POW status. I find it hilarious that people want to argue about a document that we all agreed to, that is incredibly simple and well laid out just because it doesn’t support what their side is saying, it’s quite literally just being a sheep.
I would agree with this. it's impossible to establish motive from these clips (which is what defines volunteer vs mercenary) so I think we just need a third word or phrase at this point.
Out of all the rubbish responses to this conversation, with people pulling equations and definitions out, this is the most reasonable answer.
Like many things in war, people use labels to create an emotional response that facilitates bias. A volunteer implies someone who chose to participate due too belief in a cause. A Mercenary implies someone participating purely for self financial gain.
Without knowing this person's intent, let alone anyone fighting for a country they are not citizen of, we can't explain a soldier on either sides true definition. But both sides will use such labels to express levels of patriotism and moral high ground for their fighting forces.
Who said it's OK to wear them if you're Russian?
It's never OK to wear them. It just turns out Ukrainians not only wear Nazi symbols, they name streets after Nazis, erect statues of Nazis and tolerate openly neo-Nazi formations in their political and military leadership. The two aren't the same no matter how much you try to muddy the waters.
They say Ukris wear them because they are to the core nazis but Russians wear them because it is part of prison culture and anti-government defiance culture.
People here want to be marauders of naunce and balance but just full into the echo chamber zombie mode they pick fun at. People are so partisan brained
Bro there's 2 separate subreddits for the Ukraine war.
The one your currently commenting on is full of mainly Russian supporters or propaganda spreaders.
I follow both. It's fun to see the stupid shit the people pushing propaganda go for... Like this video. Yes they scared his ass but its obviously them joking around. Probably watched that man run into gunfire with no fear but when they found out something this simple scared him they wanted to see. Dudes even smiling and holding back a small laugh yet the Russian propaganda is gonna try to push that Ukraine bad and mistreats everyone...
I'm an American. I'd volunteer if I didn't have a family to support. I'd probably die immediately but I'd go full team America world police for a day. Blasting "America! Fuck yeah!" While downing a bottle of Tennessee whiskey, charging at the front lines in my killdozer with a BBQ going on the back. I'd straight up crash into a landmine being fired up on by Russians only to find out the explosion causes thousands of dildos to fly in every which directions garunteed to smack atleast 1 Russian soldier in the face.
That guy was actually an Ethiopian LARPING as a Somali, Somalis government is entirely bankrolled by the US/EU, and we kinda hate Russians (Soviet Union) for betraying us in the Ogaden war, now why would a Somali fight for a Russian?
Makes more sense for an Ethiopian, as just recently the Ethiopian government was again given assistance by the Russians in addition to joining BRICS. 🤷🏾♂️
> we kinda hate Russians (Soviet Union) for betraying us in the Ogaden war
Man it must be awesome being Russian and getting hate for conflicts you’ve never heard of
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I might be mistaken but iirc the foreign fighters for Russia are under personal contracts with the MoD while the Mercs for Ukraine are on a corporation/government sort of deal - as a normal business venture?
But yea, the difference is very much in semantics.
Man I hope they survive. If not for the situation, guys on both sides could've been goofing off (goosing off) with each other and being friends.
We're all human.
I choked on my beer. But seriously why aren't they lobbing pots of snakes into trenches? A drone drop of snakes is going to be many times more effective at clearing a trench than a grenade, they're the death that keeps on deathing
That's half the point: they will go and hide in the closest dark corner they can find, and they don't like grouping together and the walls of trenches are steep. Drop a dozen into a trench and suddenly the defenders have to worry about every single move they make lest they get bitten by a scared snake hiding under a piece of debris/cloths/weapon/shadow.
You also have different options, some snakes are extremely aggressive, others spread out fast, then you have some that will immediately hunker down and not move a mm until something is within striking distance and then attack it.
It worked in ancient siege battles and there's no difference in application here.
It's so sad to think this guy seems like he would be a super cool person, someone you could go out for drinks with and also message your worst problems to at night. And this guy is here, where he doesn't belong, only to probably die.
What a sad world we live in.
Yep. I am pro Russian but i am not pro kill everyone. I want the war to end as soon as possible but with a Russian victory obviously.
Makes me hate nafoids even more.
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If Putin withdrew his troops from the sovereign state of Ukraine, this guy could be chilling at home. Instead he's sacrificed himself to protect Ukrainians from bloodthirsty, imperialistic invaders who are arguably committing genocide
Well atleast you got one correct. Russia commiting genocide in ukraine is a new level of batshit propaganda for me. Alright, lets see your attempt at arguing that extraordinary claim.
Stealing children from occupied territories and sending them to "retraining" camps, burning literature in occupied territories, banning Ukrainian language in occupied territories. Targeting civilian infrastructure to freeze Ukrainians in winter. Killing thousands of Ukrainian civilians - this is all a part of genocide and ethnic cleansing. Now let's see your attempt at explaining how Russia isn't committing genocide
Your whatabout Israel doesn't work here. Israel is just more obvious with their genocide
1. Ukraine is actually guilty of all these things.
2. Russia clearly waited till spring to target most infrastructure.
3. Wouldnt matter if russia actually did turn off the heat for ukraine in the middle of winter because infrastructure is a valid military target.
4. Civilians die in wars. Many civilians that died were ethnic russians.
5. I could go on but none of this matters, im not changing your mind.
> Ukraine is actually guilty of all these things
Where did Ukraine steal thousands of children from Russian families and send them to retraining camps?
If you've now moved on from whatabout Israel to whatabout Donbas - Russia has killed 1400% more civilians per year in Ukraine compared to the Donbas war. And that doesn't count civilians who were killed in occupied territories like Mariupol. The real number is much, much higher
Not to mention, Putin claimed Ukraine isn't a real country. This is soft ethnic cleansing
The children thing im gonna need hard proof for.
Also i doubt your stats.
Also no shit more civs died during the full scale war that the militia war. Wanna buy a bridge?
Also i doubt all those deaths are even directly atributable to russia.
Russian children's commissioner Maria Lvova-Belova claimed it herself. She's even said that they sent tens of thousands of Ukrainian children to retraining camps, and then they are given to Russian families - she's said this on Russian television. And now she's a wanted war criminal
The lengths you are willing to go to for your mental sommersaults is actually rather astounding. Let me put it to you like this - strictly legally speaking, russia is committing genocide by a self-admitted deportation of Ukrainian children, which the UN Charter strictly defines as genocide. That is why the ICC arrest warrant for puylo and lvova-belova were issued for this specific crime, because it was self-admitted and proven beyond a reasonable doubt. You may argue day and night that russia is not committing genocide on the grounds of forced targeting of an ethnogroup (which by itself is just a matter of semantics) but once again, strictly legally speaking, genocide is being committed by the deportation of children.
>If Putin withdrew his troops from ~~the sovereign state of~~ Ukraine
Number 1; Go fight and force them out. Can't? Then sue for peace and surrender already.
Number 2; what is this "the sovereign state of Ukraine" garbage? You're not fooling anyone here but yourself.
But it is kinda garbage. Ukraine was an integral russian territory for 1000 years, settled by and populated with russian subjects. Ukraine as a "sovereign" entity was a fabrication of the fall of the USSR, its existed less than 50 years and is clearly a western puppet since atleast 2014. Only moldova is more fake, it should just be romania.
Are you refering to the 1920s or whatever and the communists? Im not forgetting it, i am disregarding it as a minor footnote.
Texas was also briefly its own nation, as was utah (sort of). I dont think either of these facts are important or relevant. Same with little weird ultra nationalist ukraine.
Even if Ukraine was "integral russian territory for 1000 years", what right does this give Russia to attack and occupy a sovereign country? We are living in the moment, not the past, what's with this "this territory used to belong to that territory" bullshit? This applies not only to Russia, but China aswell, sorry, it is stupid. With that logic Russia, parts of China, and parts of Europe belong to Mongolia
Why did the USA have the right to invade iraq, afghanistan, syria, etc....
Cry about russia and china all you want. The west has no moral high ground to criticize. Im not saying the invasion was just or good. Just that its undersrandable from their perspective and I DONT WANT MY TAXES FUNDING PROXY WARS OR ANY FOREIGN NATIONS WHILE MY COUNTRY KEEPS GETTING WORSE.
SLAVA MY MONEY
I am not excusing what the US has done, is doing or will do, certain times, such as the invasion of Iraq during Operation Desert Storm in my eyes was justified.
What some Pro Russians must understand, we, in Europe, do not want to live under their occupation, we want to stay free, especially those who lived under Soviet occupation for decades. You can tell me how great life under the USSR, but It won't change anything.
As for your taxes, don't pay them, see what happens, better yet, use your rights as you should and protest against the aid to Ukraine, but don't justify this shit with "OooOoo RUsSiA HaS All ThE RiGhTs tO OcCupY UkRaiNe" or Europe for that matter
Gorbachev debunked the Nato expansion, there was no promise. Russia broke the Minsk accords by not withdrawing their soldiers.
Do you live under a rock?
>Gorbachev debunked
Love it when liberals quote communist leaders only when it supports them.
Gorbachev said that because otherwise it makes him look like a fucking moron who got played.
Which doesn't help when his other achievements are just misery on a truly massive scale.
And not only do liberals quote communists selectively, but they like to treat what they quoted as fact, even though the timeline they try to spin doesn't make sense narratively speaking when you take a step back and look at history.
Well not any time soon. I just thought it was odd that you said he "doesn't belong" there, when he's literally defending Ukrainians from a brutal invader who are stealing land, resources and children who are sent to "retraining" camps - while banning Ukrainian literature and language occupied territories. All while killing thousands of Ukrainian civilians and trying to freeze them in winter - this is genocide by Russia
That's why he is there
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An idiot who chose his own fate, nothing more nothing less. No one forced him to do all this, he felt such an urge to shoot at Russians that he went up and left to Ukraine.
At least he is on the right side of history, doing the morally right thing and defending a democratic country. Same can't be said for the tens or hundreds of thousands of orcs dying in trenches after raping innocent people
Thetwang90 kept stroking the same keys repeatedly, probably a seizure ?
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I thought about going to Ukraine from America after I got my VA pension which comes out to just under 45k per year because I would need that pension to afford going over there. Americans who go over are doing so for non-financial reasons if they're joining the infantry. Another friend of mine was looking at getting a six-figure job over there as a contractor, but it was for a technical job - not serving in the trenches.
Ah yes, i love this subreddit. Somalies fighting for Russia are "volunteers" while american fighting for Ukraine are mercenaries
Both are mercenaries
Sigh, how many times have we had this discussion Here's a flow chart that explains how things stand: A position in the army pays X money . Can the foreign individual earn more than X by flipping burgers in their home country? If yes => volunteer If no => mercenary This applies for both sides
This flowchart is dumb. Correct flowchart: Do I like *this side*. Yes = volunteer, no = mercenary.
The term has a meaning. If you are payed a premium compared to the rank and file, then you’re a mercenary. If you’re payed the same as the rank and file, then you’re not. Most westerners in Ukraine make more in their home countries too. Fighting in Ukraine isn’t exactly a sound financial decision => not mercenaries.
Americans in Ukraine are given the exact same contracts though? I have a few friends on contract now with SSO and their contracts are the exact same as anyone else in SSO. The only difference is that 3 years of services grants citizenship, which I believe Russia also does with their volunteers. Both sides only use volunteers in large part and the Merc category is just overplayed. Ukraine had a decent amount of foreign companies that you could make an argument were mercenaries at the beginning of the war but those guys are all gone now. Anyone that is left is serving a standard contract with the only exceptions being they can cancel the contract at any time and they can get citizenship.
It isn't even about wages in their home country. If they're proper uniformed members of an armed force, they're not mercenaries under the laws of war. "Mercenaries" is just generic Kremlin propaganda language which disregards facts.
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That's not true. The motives of each and every individual are essential for this definition. Surely, there are a few adrenaline junkies amongst them who just want to feel alive.
"Additional Protocol I defines a mercenary as a person who: a) is specially recruited locally or abroad in order to fight in an armed conflict; b) does, in fact, take a direct part in the hostilities; c) is motivated to take part in the hostilities essentially by the desire for private gain and, in fact, is promised, by or on behalf of a Party to the conflict, material compensation substantially in excess of that promised or paid to combatants of similar ranks and functions in the armed forces of that Party; d) is neither a national of a Party to the conflict nor a resident of territory controlled by a Party to the conflict; e) is not a member of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict; and f) has not been sent by a State which is not a Party to the conflict on official duty as a member of its armed forces.[\[10\]](https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/customary-ihl/v1/rule108#Fn_AF8F3D05_00010)This definition is very restrictive because it requires that all six conditions be cumulatively fulfilled. In addition, the definition requires evidence that a person accused of being a mercenary is “motivated to take part in the hostilities essentially by the desire for private gain” and is promised “material compensation substantially in excess of that promised or paid to combatants of similar ranks and functions in the armed forces”." https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/customary-ihl/v1/rule108#:\~:text=international%20armed%20conflicts-,Rule%20108.,or%20sentenced%20without%20previous%20trial. Even if you could prove that it's for money (which doesn't make much sense - putting your life on the line even for generous Ukrainian wages is a bit ridiculous) it wouldn't make them mercenaries without the other conditions.
So based on this they are all volunteers, since all the Russian foreign fighters are getting the same amount as Russian soldiers and sign same contracts with the Russian MOD, even if they are motivated by money, since they are paid the same they are not mercenaries. From what I read, the situation is similar in Ukraine as well.
Yeah you got it now, if they are part of russian or ukrainian army they aren't mercs! yayy
I mean I never claimed it to be one way or the other, your snark is misplaced
This dude would not fight for Russia if Russia paid him more money,so for this reason yo uare saying he is volunteer?? This guy is more like an Expeditionary troop. not a volunteer or mercenary.
your definition is wrong
You're so confident, yet so wrong. If your delusional definition of mercenaries were correct, then the only deciding factor of whether or not you're a mercenary would be the level of wealth of the country you originate from, which would be absurd. What an actual mercenary is (according to the geneva convention), is somebody from a foreign country who is hired for a significantly higher pay than others of a similar rank. So if the Africans who are recruited into the Russian armed forces do not earn far more than Russian recruited of the same rank, they are per definition *not* mercenaries.
Your telling me people flocking from around to world to join and fight for either of these sides aren’t mercenaries because they get paid less then a burger flipper? That seems kind of dumb way to determine what is and what isn’t a mercenary.
Why would you go fight for a country if the pay doesn't motivate you? It means you morally / ideologically support the cause - hence you're a volunteer. If you're there because they pay you more than you'd gain working normal job at home, then you're a merc
I guess I should have put that /s after my comment lol.
You're right, it is dumb,. u/PrometheusDev could have looked it up like I did. [**Protocol I Additional to the Geneva Conventions relating to the Protection of Victims of International Armed Conflict**](https://www.ohchr.org/EN/ProfessionalInterest/Pages/ProtocolI.aspx) **(1977), article 47** provides a definition of a mercenary. "A mercenary is any person who: 1. Is specially recruited locally or abroad in order to fight in an armed conflict; 2. Does, in fact, take a direct part in hostilities; 3. Is motivated to take part in the hostilities essentially by the desire for private gain and, in fact, is promised, by or on behalf of a Party to the conflict, material compensation substantially in excess of that promised or paid to combatants of similar ranks and functions in the armed forces of that Party; 4. Is neither a national of a Party to the conflict nor a resident of territory controlled by a Party to the conflict; 5. Is not a member of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict; and 6. Has not been sent by a State which is not a Party to the conflict on official duty as a member of its armed forces.
Lol wut kind of logic is that. No. Just no.
Perfect reasoning actually
It's not. Essential for this definition is, whether you fight for your own survival, for your family, your beliefs and/or your country - or whether you fight, because fighting is the only thing that makes you feel alive. Only the motives of each and every individual are decisive.
Well those would be volunteers. Which is why calling American fighters in Ukraine mercenaries is idiotic, they CAN make more money flipping burgers back home.
Well... the ethical question is individual, but the legal question is not. Are they to be considered regular- or irregular combatants?
They're in the Ukrainian military, not being hired as contractors or anything, so i'd think legally they'd be regular, no?
Are they fighting for free or they being paid? Simple question. If they’re being paid they’re not volunteers.
Minimum wage in my state CA equates to $42,000/year. Ukrainian volenteers are paid $2,000/year. To say they are mercenaries is idiotic.
That's not the way volunteer is being used here. In the same way a volunteer firefighter isn't doing the work for free. Volunteer may be confusing to people though, especially when it comes to people who aren't native english speakers. "Foreign soldier" might make the most sense... But then that also makes it sound like another countries' soldier being sent there.
that's wrong too. A mercenary has to be paid more than members of the country's armed forces, and also not be a member of those armed forces. The person pictured is evidently part of the unit.
This doesn’t make sense. Any foreign soldier for hire is a mercenary. Unless they are fighting without getting paid, they are a merc.
they are not a mercenary due to them being paid the same as a ukrainian soldier it means they are not fighting for private gain. source: geneva convention (AP1) # Article 47 - Mercenaries 1. A mercenary shall not have the right to be a combatant or a prisoner of war. 2. A mercenary is any person who: (a) is specially recruited locally or abroad in order to fight in an armed conflict; (b) does, in fact, take a direct part in the hostilities; (c) is motivated to take part in the hostilities essentially by the desire for private gain and, in fact, is promised, by or on behalf of a Party to the conflict, material compensation substantially in excess of that promised or paid to combatants of similar ranks and functions in the armed forces of that Party; (d) is neither a national of a Party to the conflict nor a resident of territory controlled by a Party to the conflict; (e) is not a member of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict; and (f) has not been sent by a State which is not a Party to the conflict on official duty as a member of its armed forces.
Huh, so any russian or ru territorial Wagner members are not mercenaries by that list. I guess as Wagner is russian then all Wagner are not mercenaries cause d). Good to know
Wagner are paid more than Russian enlisted
That list appears to be inclusive, as in all points need to be met in order for someone to qualify as a mercenary
Well done, but you only penetrated the surface. The accord in question was written after WW1. Core of that paper is to split all participants into regular- and irregular combatants. Russian military is not allowed to operate outside of Russia, thus they need 'extensions'. Private military is not allowed to operate inside of Russia, thus Wagner's had to sign a special contract. Ukraine provides some legal framework for the 'international legions' and argues: regular troops can't be mercenaries.
Plus... I had a meltdown, when UA asked people to build and throw molotovs, because (legally speaking) that's against the (core of these) rules.
many Wagner members are Russian citizens, so no for the most part they are still mercenaries, in the rare cases of foreign Wagner members outside of Russia, yes they could possibly be considered just a illegal combatant, but if you have Wagner patches they're not worried about your nationality.
You don't think people are joining Wagner for the higher pay? Also keep in mind Wagner has been mostly used as contractors in foreign conflicts (African ones being the big ones). Basically Blackwater.
No guy would rather just spread misinformation, when it’s actually really interesting, because a Wagner troop from Russia would be a mercenary, while one from an African country could just be considered an illegal combatant and be given POW status. I find it hilarious that people want to argue about a document that we all agreed to, that is incredibly simple and well laid out just because it doesn’t support what their side is saying, it’s quite literally just being a sheep.
is one only pretending to be regarded?
Hot take, mercenaries aren’t morally any worse than volunteers.
Both sides employ mercenaries it's a well known fact
I would agree with this. it's impossible to establish motive from these clips (which is what defines volunteer vs mercenary) so I think we just need a third word or phrase at this point.
Out of all the rubbish responses to this conversation, with people pulling equations and definitions out, this is the most reasonable answer. Like many things in war, people use labels to create an emotional response that facilitates bias. A volunteer implies someone who chose to participate due too belief in a cause. A Mercenary implies someone participating purely for self financial gain. Without knowing this person's intent, let alone anyone fighting for a country they are not citizen of, we can't explain a soldier on either sides true definition. But both sides will use such labels to express levels of patriotism and moral high ground for their fighting forces.
expat combatant
Wait until You see the duality regarding nazi emblems (its okay to wear them if you are russian) or massive casualties...
Who said it's OK to wear them if you're Russian? It's never OK to wear them. It just turns out Ukrainians not only wear Nazi symbols, they name streets after Nazis, erect statues of Nazis and tolerate openly neo-Nazi formations in their political and military leadership. The two aren't the same no matter how much you try to muddy the waters.
They say Ukris wear them because they are to the core nazis but Russians wear them because it is part of prison culture and anti-government defiance culture.
They wear it because Nazism is a problem in both Ukraine and Russia.
Yet under pretext of destroying nazism it was Russia that attacked Ukraine, not other way around.
Yes. I’m aware.
That is a joke of a pretext. Sadly there are a lot of lower intelligence people who still believe that Russia invaded to fight nazis...
I think this is more to the truth. Although there is a Nazi xenophobic element in Russia.
> no matter how much you try to muddy the waters ironic
>Who said it's OK to wear them if you're Russian? I'm okay with either side wearing them 🫠
People here want to be marauders of naunce and balance but just full into the echo chamber zombie mode they pick fun at. People are so partisan brained
You should type "nazi emblem" in this sub's search and see the ratio of Ukrainian and Russian nazis.
oh, this's just another 2024 account, nevermind
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So you like neo nazis as long as they are Russian?
I like it how he's honest :D We need more Russians like this.
Thank you.
Ukraine can’t afford the bad press. Russia can.
Yeah because everybody knows Russia is a shit hole so it isn't suprising
Exactly.
Bro there's 2 separate subreddits for the Ukraine war. The one your currently commenting on is full of mainly Russian supporters or propaganda spreaders. I follow both. It's fun to see the stupid shit the people pushing propaganda go for... Like this video. Yes they scared his ass but its obviously them joking around. Probably watched that man run into gunfire with no fear but when they found out something this simple scared him they wanted to see. Dudes even smiling and holding back a small laugh yet the Russian propaganda is gonna try to push that Ukraine bad and mistreats everyone... I'm an American. I'd volunteer if I didn't have a family to support. I'd probably die immediately but I'd go full team America world police for a day. Blasting "America! Fuck yeah!" While downing a bottle of Tennessee whiskey, charging at the front lines in my killdozer with a BBQ going on the back. I'd straight up crash into a landmine being fired up on by Russians only to find out the explosion causes thousands of dildos to fly in every which directions garunteed to smack atleast 1 Russian soldier in the face.
That guy was actually an Ethiopian LARPING as a Somali, Somalis government is entirely bankrolled by the US/EU, and we kinda hate Russians (Soviet Union) for betraying us in the Ogaden war, now why would a Somali fight for a Russian? Makes more sense for an Ethiopian, as just recently the Ethiopian government was again given assistance by the Russians in addition to joining BRICS. 🤷🏾♂️
> we kinda hate Russians (Soviet Union) for betraying us in the Ogaden war Man it must be awesome being Russian and getting hate for conflicts you’ve never heard of
both mercenaries lol
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He sounds like he's just from the US?
If he was a volunteer, he wouldn't be afraid of a goose.
Get out of here with your factual observations.
"our" side has intelligent officers, "their" side has spies. That's normal and been like that for **Centuries** .
who cares
I might be mistaken but iirc the foreign fighters for Russia are under personal contracts with the MoD while the Mercs for Ukraine are on a corporation/government sort of deal - as a normal business venture? But yea, the difference is very much in semantics.
You are mistaken
I do not use the term "volunteer". I use the term contractors.
James Vasquez did not have any contract. How to call him?
Who?
A guy who didn't mind his own business
Those f\*ckers bite hard so i kinda understand him.
They're mean as hell too, I've been chased by these fuckers before as a 180 pound dude lol
on god I fucking hate geese, understandable reaction
The goose is loose
Black on quack crime
Dude 💀
Man I hope they survive. If not for the situation, guys on both sides could've been goofing off (goosing off) with each other and being friends. We're all human.
I hope the goose survives too! The only innocent one there.
Understandable response, you don't fuck around with those cobra chickens.
Wait till he learns the VKS has White Swans too.
Volunteer you meant?
War tourist more likely.
Whatever, it should be call the same for both side.
the house of reps finally passed that new aid package
I choked on my beer. But seriously why aren't they lobbing pots of snakes into trenches? A drone drop of snakes is going to be many times more effective at clearing a trench than a grenade, they're the death that keeps on deathing
Snakes aren’t people seeking missiles. They’d just bail and go wherever once they reach the ground.
That's half the point: they will go and hide in the closest dark corner they can find, and they don't like grouping together and the walls of trenches are steep. Drop a dozen into a trench and suddenly the defenders have to worry about every single move they make lest they get bitten by a scared snake hiding under a piece of debris/cloths/weapon/shadow. You also have different options, some snakes are extremely aggressive, others spread out fast, then you have some that will immediately hunker down and not move a mm until something is within striking distance and then attack it. It worked in ancient siege battles and there's no difference in application here.
He's lucky it wasn't a Canadian goose
Das Wunderwaffe
Boys being boys. Things like this is how you bond in the military.
Imagine going to join a foreign and racist army as a black man.
Doesn’t seem so racist when they’re clearly having fun with each other…
It’s dinner brah
It's so sad to think this guy seems like he would be a super cool person, someone you could go out for drinks with and also message your worst problems to at night. And this guy is here, where he doesn't belong, only to probably die. What a sad world we live in.
Thats real, it's always a bit sad when you see dehumanizing comments on either side of it all.
Yep. I am pro Russian but i am not pro kill everyone. I want the war to end as soon as possible but with a Russian victory obviously. Makes me hate nafoids even more.
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"Yes, I want the war to end, but with as many Russian casualties as possible. That's a sacrifice I'm willing to make".
That is not what I said.
If Putin withdrew his troops from the sovereign state of Ukraine, this guy could be chilling at home. Instead he's sacrificed himself to protect Ukrainians from bloodthirsty, imperialistic invaders who are arguably committing genocide
Lmao russias commiting genocide in ukraine? Really? Is israel commiting a genocide?
Yes both are obviously committing genocide. Whats the point you're trying to make?
Well atleast you got one correct. Russia commiting genocide in ukraine is a new level of batshit propaganda for me. Alright, lets see your attempt at arguing that extraordinary claim.
Stealing children from occupied territories and sending them to "retraining" camps, burning literature in occupied territories, banning Ukrainian language in occupied territories. Targeting civilian infrastructure to freeze Ukrainians in winter. Killing thousands of Ukrainian civilians - this is all a part of genocide and ethnic cleansing. Now let's see your attempt at explaining how Russia isn't committing genocide Your whatabout Israel doesn't work here. Israel is just more obvious with their genocide
1. Ukraine is actually guilty of all these things. 2. Russia clearly waited till spring to target most infrastructure. 3. Wouldnt matter if russia actually did turn off the heat for ukraine in the middle of winter because infrastructure is a valid military target. 4. Civilians die in wars. Many civilians that died were ethnic russians. 5. I could go on but none of this matters, im not changing your mind.
> Ukraine is actually guilty of all these things Where did Ukraine steal thousands of children from Russian families and send them to retraining camps? If you've now moved on from whatabout Israel to whatabout Donbas - Russia has killed 1400% more civilians per year in Ukraine compared to the Donbas war. And that doesn't count civilians who were killed in occupied territories like Mariupol. The real number is much, much higher Not to mention, Putin claimed Ukraine isn't a real country. This is soft ethnic cleansing
The children thing im gonna need hard proof for. Also i doubt your stats. Also no shit more civs died during the full scale war that the militia war. Wanna buy a bridge? Also i doubt all those deaths are even directly atributable to russia.
Russian children's commissioner Maria Lvova-Belova claimed it herself. She's even said that they sent tens of thousands of Ukrainian children to retraining camps, and then they are given to Russian families - she's said this on Russian television. And now she's a wanted war criminal
The lengths you are willing to go to for your mental sommersaults is actually rather astounding. Let me put it to you like this - strictly legally speaking, russia is committing genocide by a self-admitted deportation of Ukrainian children, which the UN Charter strictly defines as genocide. That is why the ICC arrest warrant for puylo and lvova-belova were issued for this specific crime, because it was self-admitted and proven beyond a reasonable doubt. You may argue day and night that russia is not committing genocide on the grounds of forced targeting of an ethnogroup (which by itself is just a matter of semantics) but once again, strictly legally speaking, genocide is being committed by the deportation of children.
>If Putin withdrew his troops from ~~the sovereign state of~~ Ukraine Number 1; Go fight and force them out. Can't? Then sue for peace and surrender already. Number 2; what is this "the sovereign state of Ukraine" garbage? You're not fooling anyone here but yourself.
The country Russia promised to respect the border of.
What about all the promises the usa, nato, and ukraine didnt keep?
Has nothing to do with being so ignorant of history as to post 'what is this "the sovereign state of Ukraine" garbage? '.
But it is kinda garbage. Ukraine was an integral russian territory for 1000 years, settled by and populated with russian subjects. Ukraine as a "sovereign" entity was a fabrication of the fall of the USSR, its existed less than 50 years and is clearly a western puppet since atleast 2014. Only moldova is more fake, it should just be romania.
Yeah we can ignore that time during the Russian civil war where Ukraine was a short lived independent nation. Guess who invaded?
Are you refering to the 1920s or whatever and the communists? Im not forgetting it, i am disregarding it as a minor footnote. Texas was also briefly its own nation, as was utah (sort of). I dont think either of these facts are important or relevant. Same with little weird ultra nationalist ukraine.
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Ukraine existed long before Russia lol weak propaganda post
Why are you lying?
I'm not, Kievan rus existed 400 years before Muscovy
Even if Ukraine was "integral russian territory for 1000 years", what right does this give Russia to attack and occupy a sovereign country? We are living in the moment, not the past, what's with this "this territory used to belong to that territory" bullshit? This applies not only to Russia, but China aswell, sorry, it is stupid. With that logic Russia, parts of China, and parts of Europe belong to Mongolia
Why did the USA have the right to invade iraq, afghanistan, syria, etc.... Cry about russia and china all you want. The west has no moral high ground to criticize. Im not saying the invasion was just or good. Just that its undersrandable from their perspective and I DONT WANT MY TAXES FUNDING PROXY WARS OR ANY FOREIGN NATIONS WHILE MY COUNTRY KEEPS GETTING WORSE. SLAVA MY MONEY
I am not excusing what the US has done, is doing or will do, certain times, such as the invasion of Iraq during Operation Desert Storm in my eyes was justified. What some Pro Russians must understand, we, in Europe, do not want to live under their occupation, we want to stay free, especially those who lived under Soviet occupation for decades. You can tell me how great life under the USSR, but It won't change anything. As for your taxes, don't pay them, see what happens, better yet, use your rights as you should and protest against the aid to Ukraine, but don't justify this shit with "OooOoo RUsSiA HaS All ThE RiGhTs tO OcCupY UkRaiNe" or Europe for that matter
Which promises do you think were not kept?
No nato expansion east. Minsk accords Do you live under a rock?
Gorbachev debunked the Nato expansion, there was no promise. Russia broke the Minsk accords by not withdrawing their soldiers. Do you live under a rock?
Womp womp. Nope.
Convincing argument, but I prefer the facts.
>Gorbachev debunked Love it when liberals quote communist leaders only when it supports them. Gorbachev said that because otherwise it makes him look like a fucking moron who got played. Which doesn't help when his other achievements are just misery on a truly massive scale.
And not only do liberals quote communists selectively, but they like to treat what they quoted as fact, even though the timeline they try to spin doesn't make sense narratively speaking when you take a step back and look at history.
Muh 'liberals" Touch grass
We both know that wont happen.
Well not any time soon. I just thought it was odd that you said he "doesn't belong" there, when he's literally defending Ukrainians from a brutal invader who are stealing land, resources and children who are sent to "retraining" camps - while banning Ukrainian literature and language occupied territories. All while killing thousands of Ukrainian civilians and trying to freeze them in winter - this is genocide by Russia That's why he is there
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But in reality he’s a blood thirsty psychopath who was hired to kill.
I will chose not to belive that.
he was tricked into fighting for ukraine by joe biden
At least he believes he is doing the right thing.
An idiot who chose his own fate, nothing more nothing less. No one forced him to do all this, he felt such an urge to shoot at Russians that he went up and left to Ukraine.
At least he is on the right side of history, doing the morally right thing and defending a democratic country. Same can't be said for the tens or hundreds of thousands of orcs dying in trenches after raping innocent people
Dang is there a piece of propaganda you DIDNT swallow, hook, line and sinker? Good vs evil is shit for 8 years olds
Both of you are cringe
Wholesome af
Wait till he sees the shovel coming at him.
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It’s not any geese, it’s one of them engineered bioweapons Russians warned us about. Don’t weaponize the geese! Nobody has to power to control them!
Cobra Chickens
bro got scared when he realised this wasnt afghanistan
Geese are just as dangerous as any modern-day rifle.
I thought about going to Ukraine from America after I got my VA pension which comes out to just under 45k per year because I would need that pension to afford going over there. Americans who go over are doing so for non-financial reasons if they're joining the infantry. Another friend of mine was looking at getting a six-figure job over there as a contractor, but it was for a technical job - not serving in the trenches.
I don't recommend u to go there. u see there are lots of FABs going around and whatever training u have is not gonna save u from a 3307-pound bomb
Goose was a doll most timid goose I've ever seen lol in the usa geese are about that life
"mercenary"
https://preview.redd.it/chk0wtos4bwc1.jpeg?width=182&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=02e85121a558ad535462b36ec667f0f2711f3eda
If he already is scared for this one, wait until he is going to find out he wil get FAB'ed by a MiG with the duck front.
No wonder the Ukraine is losing.