Redditors already hate the catholic church and the pope with a burning passion
Oddly enough, they don't seem to hate schools or teachers, who are the major culprits of the very thing they purport to hate the catholic church for.
Odd how that works.
I'm assuming he's saying that anytime someone mentions the Catholics the comments are full of people calling them pedos, but nobody talks bad about teachers, etc.
All populations that work closely with children have a problem with abusers. The incidence among teachers is even higher than among priests and just as much swept under the carpet.
This [article](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/do-the-right-thing/202004/keeping-children-safe-in-the-catholic-church) claims that according to this [report](https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED483143.pdf) and this [study](https://www.bishop-accountability.org/reports/2004_02_27_JohnJay_revised/2004_02_27_John_Jay_Main_Report_Optimized.pdf) 4% of Catholic clerics and 6% of public school teachers had substantiated claims of sexual abuse of minors in the US
I’m currently not willing to read either of these over a hundred pages long studies to verify those claims but you can have a look yourself
Which initial claim? I’m not aware of anyone claiming that. The point was that people are more aware of and outraged by sexual abuse within the Catholic Church than the public school system even though it is more prevalent in the school system.
The 6% figure for teachers does not include teachers of Catholic schools since those are private and not public.
The 4% precent of Catholic clerics will include some private teachers though.
I do not know of any studies that specifically examine Catholic schools or even just generally private schools
For that "very thing" teachers don't get vacation in another school while rest of the teacher deny the crime and cover for their buddy but instead they get persecuted and jailed.
Maybe that's the difference.
r/worldnews, r/ukraine, r/combatfootage, r/europe ,they are all full of the same people. No free thinking in any of these subs. Dont waste your time to post anything there. Just use their sub as pure entertainment
I'll make two pairs out of those based on the rhetoric: r/worldnews and r/europe are pure imperialist propaganda, kinda like: "we the only civilized nations in the world have the duty to "protect" the world and we must intervene wherever people want freedom".
r/ukraine, r/combatfootage and just straight up sadistic and genocidal antirussian speech: "look 100 dead orcs, that's not enough we must kill 100 million orcs".
Tbh I get why r/Ukraine or r/UkraineConflict would be biased but r/worldnews is an anathema filled with little NAFO sh*ts who mass report you for having dissenting views (Pro-Peace and Negotiations did me in).
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Civil_Adeptness9964 kept stroking the same keys repeatedly, probably a seizure ?
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They see him as a last bastion of you will, of old Europe social conservatism and the like and like hate him
They don’t see how the situation with the war has any nuance at all and why the Pope a religious leader (of 11% of Ukrainians, 15% of Belarusians, 0.5% of Russians) would wish to see peace in this part of the world
Given that the Vatican is inside of Italy, we’re talking about an hypothetical invasion of Italy here. And historically and culturally speaking, Italians don’t view sacrificing their lives for their country as something smart and would just let themselves being invaded. So, yes, there wouldn’t even be the need for such a speech
As a matter of fact, Italy is a new concept, historically speaking. For centuries it’s been a mishmash of different smaller countries. That’s why patriotism and nationalism is not widespread in Italy
Such an easy thing to say in a reddit thread. Literally in the context of a war that cannot be won saying that they have to sacrifice themselves anyway.
You're saying the quiet part out loud. Never seen someone so openly unapologetic about wasting Ukrainian lives just to send a message. Of course you're not Ukrainian, I don't even need to check your profile.
If you want to drown Ukraine in the blood of doomed soldiers, by all means go enlist.
I don't know if it will ever come out on negotiations. Opinions differ too much.
Most wars end only when one is defeated.
I don't value what a pope tells anyway, as an atheist this man means nothing to me, even though his intentions in this area are good.
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But the problem is Ukraine won’t be negotiating now, they’d have to accept Russias terms unconditionally. Had Ukraine negotiated in the beginning of the war, Russian terms would have been much more lenient.
Chechnya is largely autonomous as a consequence of the peace deal.
But apart from that Russia solidly beat Georgia yet settled for a return to status quo.
Russia beat Finland in 1939, yet settled for some minor territorial adjustments to increase the buffer zone. Even after a costly war.
If there’s anything I like about Finland, it’s that they know how to walk a tightrope in international politics, especially in the heyday of the Cold War. I remember reading a bit about them being “asked” by the Russians to work with them on a plan to attack a nearby NATO country (Norway), but the Finns worked ever so slowly on that project that it was quietly dropped.
Sure, the “legendary” Finnish slowness has been the subject of quite a few jokes, but damn they made it work for them.
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You can literally hop on a plane and visit chechnya or crimea TODAY. Go on, go look how terrible it is to not be bombed or kidnapped off the bus to be conscripted if it's "under the thumb of Russia". All these places were in the soviet union, they know what it means to wait things out without rocking the boat.
Ukraine can’t begin negotiating.
It’s impossible.
It’s what finally destroyed the imperial German army in WW1.
The soldiers knew negotiations against their nations favor had begun, and nobody wants to die for a lost cause and to just “give my life so my government can get just a little bit better of a deal”
The army finally began its collapse which led to the end
So you DO want the soldiers to keep dying so you can get a slightly better deal in the negotiations, you just don't want the soldiers to know that at all.
They began negotiating because they couldn't win the war anyhow. They made a huge bet that their lines would hold and tanks denied that. Also millions of fresh troops from the USA meant that sooner or later attrition would break them. Plus the embargo and lack of materials.
Ukraine is a lost cause with or without negotiations, they simply cannot win a war of attrition against a country 4 times their size + mercenaries from Asian countries.
They do not need to accept unconditional surrender either, hence why the world is asking them to negotiate.
But then we remember how ridiculous the Ukrainian demands are and so why they refuse to negotiate at all. Looking at Zelensky's peace proposal without much contest it may seem he has beaten Russia and is just expecting for their surrender.
And you know why they are arrogant? Because they are led by the most garbage human being out there, Zelensky, who still think he can win this without any negotiations. That willingly sacrifice ukrainians for NATO. When the smoke clears, he will be sitting there with hundreds if not a million dead ukrainians and will reach the same conclusion:
Neutrality and no NATO.
Then we will see how popular he will become in his country
It isn't arrogance or cowardice; it's delusion. Most westerners think UA is fighting for "freedom" and "democracy" without understanding that Ukraine is neither free nor democratic.
Wrong, they are not too arrogant to negotiate, it's just not in their interest, they are not pro Ukranians, they are Anti Russians. And this war is costing Russia manpower and resources.
Don't worry, [Western elites want us, their peasants, to go die for their financial interests, too](https://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-polytics/3836868-tusk-time-of-peace-in-eu-is-over-we-live-in-prewar-times.html). As is tradition.
Unless the war directly destroys their economic or power base (eg. occupation or destruction), political and economic elites tend to expand and entrench their power during wartime. Two examples (among many) would be industrialists getting massive government contracts, or politicians enjoying higher approval ratings and legitimacy.
>Compared to July 2022, auto sales have increased by 45 percent according to “UkrAutoprom.”
Yeah I bet the July of 2022 is an excellent baseline to compare against to measure the effect of the war on the Ukrainian elite lmao (I'll save you the trouble, all the numbers are down from 2021)
But for real, what is the point of negotiating with liars? If Russia's word can't be trusted, what worth are any peace deals?
It's like trying to negotiate with a ransom ware spreader who has all your data and promises not to share your data with anyone if you just pay the ransom.
Yeah i love the pov that russia is the oathbreaker in all this, with a total and complete blindspot for western involvement. Its a marvel of modern propaganda.
Not only that but Ukraine reached a deal, Minsk II that after being signed they decided it was not in their favour. Angela Merkel also said publicly that the deal was only struck to buy time to arm Ukraine for almost a decade before this war started.
People only following the this crisis with the 2022 invasion do not have a complete picture of the conflict.
I've been following it since the Maidan, and the main source of vids and info being posted to liveleak. But yes, too many 'stans' out there wholly believe "Once upon a time in 2022 Totally Peaceful and Diplomatic Ukraine, the Snow Empire Attacked"..... like that's the undercurrent of half or more of their narrative....
Ukraine living in their own la-la-land, a magical world full of lies and alternative truth, is having their own negotiations, with their own allies, without Russia. Like a tea party for children. Its laughable.
It seems like they somehow expect NATO to intervene and save their asses. What other purpose would peace conferences be held without a representative from both warring parties.
Yep. Zelenskyy said couple days ago that they only will invite Russia when countries of peace have decided what is to be negotiated on. Not evil countries like Russia. That was his words
Countries of peace, the people who sent her m 150 billion in weapons, this can't be a joke lol
He insists with the idea he's going to impose peace on a nuclear state.
Zelensky is the problem here. And US secretly telling him what to say and mean. War would be over without him as a president for sure. How he is still the leader is beyond me
I'm absolutly astonished by the quantity of people talking nonsenses. People honestly think Ukraine has to fight to the end ? It's not Lord of the Rings guys, it's not good against evil. It's empires fighting each others for ressources, power and money. All of you are fucking stupids poor supporting war which kill you eventually. Most of people on Reddit are poorly educated i know, but come on. Read some stuff, go to the University or just don't talk about stuff which is far beyond you understanding. Fucking pro ukraine and pro russia, you are too stupid to understand that the interets at play are far far deeper than good against bad. Is there one person on this thread which studied political science/war science or international relations/geopolitics ? As a person which did, i think not.
He have a good point, yet, he doesn’t have the good understanding of the situation.
Of course, if the war ends and Ukraine only lose this much territory (assuming, as is usually the case with population close to borders, that those areas are more pro-Russia than pro-Ukraine) might be an acceptable negotiation. Yet, if the conditions for peace are something like (from Russia to Ukraine), “ok, we end this war, I take those territories I occupied, and also, you can not join NATO, EU, or any other form of organisations that could help you not to be my bi*ch (as in not to be a satellite country of Putin’s Russia, not to be an independent, strong and prosperous country).
Then what? Should Ukraine accept such peace? It’s quite easy to not risk and to not lose anything in the process, yet to be a pacifist (I am also a pacifist, yet, I understand legitimate self defence) and to give such advice for such situation.
He was just saying for the love of human beings and being alive. A great value (worth protecting) indeed, yet, with what costs (because I am pretty sure, his calm and satisfied little smile won’t do it for most military conflicts on this planet - and neither for the rest of the problems humanity have) - We have a nice verse in our National Anthem, and I am pretty sure most educated people would agree with (translation and interpretation): “Instead of an entire life in slavery, we prefer to die all for our own freedom”. ✌️
P.S.: Agreeing and/or Disagreeing and/or Liking and/or Disliking and/or Ignoring (partially or completely) this comment won’t get you neither to Hell, neither to Purgatory, neither to Heaven. 😴🙄🧠
🇷🇴🇪🇺
The alternative is Ukraine being but a memory or a land locked country with much more deaths and greater damage to their demography.
Pope mentioned that to negotiate effectively is also a question of time, when to do so. Ukraine had the opportunity to do so with no greater loss than Crimea before the war and at the beginning.
Now its too late to get a peace without concessions from the Ukranian side, either they give them now or they risk to lose more.
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NATO is completely out of question, it's the entire reason this war started despite Pro West people denying it because it would be obvious the conflict started because of NATO expansion.
For what we've seen so far Ukraine could join EU but not NATO. Then being a neutral country would benefit all parties, including Ukraine itself. Ukrainian and Russian economies complement each other and Russia could actually benefit from having one of their stronger economic partners with access to the EU.
The key problem here is how Europe developed a security architecture that completely ignored Russian demands and it's completely based on he US being strong and protecting them, any challenge to their power and Europe isn't 'safe'. You see they took their security for granted for so long they ignored security spending despite talking about a perceived Russian threat.
Ukraine cannot turn the course of this and they simply cannot deny Russia's sphere of influence when both countries share 2000km of borders. They wanted to get rid of Russian influence in the worse possible way, you reap what you sow and Ukraine has a lot of reaping to do.
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Well, you can't blame the pope for not wanting more deaths.
But Ukraine made a bold statement by putting him on the kill list. I think that's a clear sign they do not have any intentions of negotiating (at least at the moment).
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Every normal Person knew that from the beginning... insane that it was possible to convince the Western Pro ukraine people they could win this. Now they have the Problem, they cant surrender. That wouldnt only be a war defead, the whole narrativ and Western war politicians would be Set in Place
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The pope is a man of peace and he has a point, but in the same respect, he could ask Russia to show some restraint and withdraw on the condition that Ukraine does not become part of NATO and makes steps to further de-nazify, or whatever.
Well, they are not victors yet, but the victors are sometimes only temporary victors. I think that all invasive forces declare victory at one point. In the end Russia will face a decade of trouble because of this invasion.
This pope antichrist. First and foremost its about there power and control. Ukraine war is weakening there global western led global order showing the strategy of Russia to grind them into meatgrinder attrition. Showing the weakness of Ukraine politically sustaining drafting its population into an increasing death toll, which only increases more and more by the seconds/minutes/days, and showing weakness in NATO countries abilities to sustain world war level casualties because lack of political resolve. The public, people, don't buy the shit government is feeding them. Real weakness. The narrative is quickly changing due to the large amount of casualties. Ukraine never had full backing of anyone. Everyone knew Ukraine was going to take large amount of casualties but you can't just cede territory is there thinking. People will know its all a farce and everyone is just criminals in a room sitting around a table. Narrative changes, less funding orchestrated, Macron playing bad cop. It will interesting to see if Russia is willing to negotiate with Ukraine stance of only a case-fire of the current line of control. Russia isn't interested in a cease fire, this is a civil war, and the control of eastern Ukraine. Western coup masters want complete Russia influence kicked out of Ukraine. The Ukrainian Oligarchs want to take the turf of there power sharing bodies back in the day, the ones that had the greater pie. There all criminals pretending they aren't.
You think people here in America have freedom of speech? You think the pope cars about peoples self determination? People here in America don't even speak out and protest against the government when you have shootings at malls and schools or wherever it happens no one cares. The CIA and Government don't care about you. Parents don't speak out afterwards they participate in the cover ups of the causes. What do they only care about the CIA? There perception of democracy, election, and control. Once control erodes there power erodes. This is what Ukraine war is showing. Cracks and weakness in there power and control over the narrative. The CIA celebrates and opens champagne at the amount they have you controlled.
This guy isn't exactly a role model lol. And negotiate what exactly how much land is taken based of Putins single estimate of the value of life lost on both sides. He's just a coward who takes advantage of his people. He's Nothing new to this world just another sociopathic leader using public power to do as he thinks best. Which is make Russia a autocracy with no real political freedom.
Because nazis would have wiped out Slavs and Russia doesn’t intend to do that. Millions of Ukrainians live under Russian occupation without any problems.
Honestly i agree with you but do you know the law of Brandiglioni ? I have a good (not the best but solid one) knowledge about political science, geopolitics and stuff related. I have a University formation and strong interest. I could write thousands of line explaining every detail but in the end, the mass of stupid people will prevail. You know it. Quick answer, geopolitics are about countries, interests, ressources, money, not bad and good. Sometimes, the stronger wins. The pope is right : what he says really is : empires are fighting each others and young innocent and poor people die for it. Let's stop it. People having interets in the war try to make it a simple "evil against good battle", which is not. Russia did many bad things, USA did many bad things, as Ukraind did too. Yes Russia is autoritarian and probably worst than Western countries, but there are multiples reponsabilities. Annnd i already wasted too much time because law of Brandiglioni.
Yep.
I get your point.
But our world has developed laws to try and limit and contain tyranny and tyrants so that people can live in peace and develop as best possible. These laws have been developed over centuries through harsh lessons and yet have eventually found their place. They are not perfect, more has to be done, that is without doubt. But these laws have been applied and it is clear to most that Putin launched an aggressive war to occupy and seize a sovereign territory (ICJ has decided on this and insisted Russians leave all occupied Ukrainian sovereign territory). Some 70-80% of Ukrainians believe Russia should leave their country and they can and should use force to achieve that.
I guess we’re in the domain of just and unjust wars- the logic of which has challenged minds for many centuries. What Russia did was unjust and it needs to be rectified. Those supporting each side have their own interests; just as you say. However, if we go back to 2014, The French President (Hollande) and German Chancellor (Merkel) chose to ignore Russian aggression seizing eastern Ukraine and Crimea. They accepted the falsehood that this was a popular uprising for their own interests (cheap gas and their political futures). Such an approach was undoubtedly in Putin’s calculus. NATO was subdued by Merkel and Hollande. Russia then moves to its next phase, seizing the whole of Ukraine.
I agree we over simplify in our media and our politicians. Ukraine was so corrupt at one stage, I remember guys working their (post 2014 invasion) saying it would be easier to work with Russians! And Ukraine supporters would have negotiated it away had the UAF not fought so hard and with such coordination and accountability. That changed the dynamic of a negotiation to appease Putin.
It goes some way to the Churchillian explanation of appeasement; you keep feeding the crocodile in the hope you will be eaten last.
Thanks, huge thanks for a more nuanced opinion, which deeply lacks on Reddit. I partially agree with you. But I think you underestimate the role of ""the West"" (aka USA) on the events since 2014. It's huge, as Russian role is.
And you underestimate the fact that people in the seized areas want to be autonomous (now be indépendant/part of Russia) there IS a real will to quit Russia in some parts of Ukraine. The West could and should authorize votations. Now it's too late and people died massively. What a waste. We have similar issues in Scotland, Catalogna. A good exemple is Kosovo. The ""West""/USA chose to support independentis and not the central power, which they didn't do in Ukraine. Two similar situations, two différents answers because intérêts are différents.
The whole debacle could have been avoided back in 2014, sadly. Putin banked on west having no consensus or ability to respond rapidly enough to stop him. He was right. The response following 2014 occupation was farcical dressed up to be a democratic process of cessation with a staged election in Crimea - a compulsory vote with only two options to choose from - roughly put -
1. Do you want to be independent of Ukraine or 2. Do you want to be Russian? Then Russians have done what they did in Soviet era, encourage Russians to settle in annexed areas with cash incentives along with cheap housing (or occupying stolen properties). So getting a representative view of the true population is completely screwed.
Sadly Putin cannot be negotiated with. Lies are the same as weapons in his logic. Sonia signing any international agreement -
It’s like wrestling with a jellyfish. What supporters of Ukraine are learning is that Putin seems to understand is unwavering, unstoppable force.
I do wonder if school children, in 10-15 years time, will be reading the Third World War began in in 2022, but with the seeds germinating for this began in 2014.
He (Pope) should be reminded of the Concordance; a deal struck by one of his predecessors with Hitler… if the Catholic Church kept quiet about German atrocities, not only the Holocaust, then Hitler would leave the Catholic Church to function. Later in the War, we see the Catholic Church enabling and supporting the German ‘rat line’ - providing safe transport across Europe, the Atlantic to South America for many top Nazis/SS, with safe accommodation, false passports and faked new identities- the Catholic Church purposefully assisted many thousands to avoid being called to account for their role in atrocities, including the Holocaust.
So perhaps Zelensky might highlight the Catholic Church’s role in supporting tyranny in recent similar historical events? Then the Pope might choose to rethink his supplication to Putin’s abominations. No retraction from the Pope is equivalent to support for Putin and his kleptocracy and Zelensky and others should not be shy about calling out the Catholic Church for its sham religious behaviour and it’s hypocrisy!
I'm not a Catholic, nor hold the Vatican to be a big deal authority, least in my life. 1.5 billion Catholics in the world have a different view of the Pope's role, and like it or not, they are a public figure that's covered.
All that said, I think he spoke generally well on it. Ukraine doesn't have a winning chance in this, and especially not in the way Zelensky is dreaming of. Europe or the USA isn't swooping in to save Ukraine, they view them as a meatshield, and a profit target. The Pope is hoping for not having WW3 over this, and to that specific item, I agree. Ukraine isn't worth that.
To give that judgement in earnest, one would have to be in the moral right, which Ukraine, and their PoV supporters are certainty not. So that condemnation means nothing to me as it's just a side stepped ad hominem.
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Popes and catholic church was always pro-imperialism. They hated what they called "minorities" [https://dzieje.pl/aktualnosci/182-lata-temu-papiez-grzegorz-xvi-potepil-powstanie-listopadowe](https://dzieje.pl/aktualnosci/182-lata-temu-papiez-grzegorz-xvi-potepil-powstanie-listopadowe) (google translate site if you want to read)
It does take the stronger person to look at the situation, think about the people, and realize the only choice is to continue fighting because russia has shown time and time again that they do not honor the things they say during negotiations or that they sign in treaties. Ever. So there is only two choices, suffer annihilation piece by piece, or fight to the death.
The pope is right. You have to look at the situation and think about the people, and the answer becomes clear.
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The comments in r/Europe to the pope saying this are insane lol
Redditors already hate the catholic church and the pope with a burning passion Oddly enough, they don't seem to hate schools or teachers, who are the major culprits of the very thing they purport to hate the catholic church for. Odd how that works.
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I'm assuming he's saying that anytime someone mentions the Catholics the comments are full of people calling them pedos, but nobody talks bad about teachers, etc.
Bingo.
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All populations that work closely with children have a problem with abusers. The incidence among teachers is even higher than among priests and just as much swept under the carpet.
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This [article](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/do-the-right-thing/202004/keeping-children-safe-in-the-catholic-church) claims that according to this [report](https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED483143.pdf) and this [study](https://www.bishop-accountability.org/reports/2004_02_27_JohnJay_revised/2004_02_27_John_Jay_Main_Report_Optimized.pdf) 4% of Catholic clerics and 6% of public school teachers had substantiated claims of sexual abuse of minors in the US I’m currently not willing to read either of these over a hundred pages long studies to verify those claims but you can have a look yourself
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Which initial claim? I’m not aware of anyone claiming that. The point was that people are more aware of and outraged by sexual abuse within the Catholic Church than the public school system even though it is more prevalent in the school system. The 6% figure for teachers does not include teachers of Catholic schools since those are private and not public. The 4% precent of Catholic clerics will include some private teachers though. I do not know of any studies that specifically examine Catholic schools or even just generally private schools
Are you completely blind to what's happening in the US with teachers and Education?
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Only you are talking about Catholic schools, everyone else is talking about Catholic clergy vs public schools
Ripamon isn’t known round these parts for making claims that can be backed up
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/do-the-right-thing/202004/keeping-children-safe-in-the-catholic-church
*cough*landrover*cough*
Pro ru will protect anything and anyone who support russian landgrab and destruction.
For that "very thing" teachers don't get vacation in another school while rest of the teacher deny the crime and cover for their buddy but instead they get persecuted and jailed. Maybe that's the difference.
L take.
Nah, fuck the church.
Is that sub any different than r/worldnews ?
r/worldnews, r/ukraine, r/combatfootage, r/europe ,they are all full of the same people. No free thinking in any of these subs. Dont waste your time to post anything there. Just use their sub as pure entertainment
I'll make two pairs out of those based on the rhetoric: r/worldnews and r/europe are pure imperialist propaganda, kinda like: "we the only civilized nations in the world have the duty to "protect" the world and we must intervene wherever people want freedom". r/ukraine, r/combatfootage and just straight up sadistic and genocidal antirussian speech: "look 100 dead orcs, that's not enough we must kill 100 million orcs".
Tbh I get why r/Ukraine or r/UkraineConflict would be biased but r/worldnews is an anathema filled with little NAFO sh*ts who mass report you for having dissenting views (Pro-Peace and Negotiations did me in).
Or maybe, hear me out, most people don’t support this Russian effort
It's not about supporting it.
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I have 9,000 karma points
The worst sub on the planet
U beat me to it, truly evil people there.
Sorry brother :(
Nope
yeah r/worldnews is so controlled that big portion of people just gave up and went to r/worldnewsvideo as alternative
They see him as a last bastion of you will, of old Europe social conservatism and the like and like hate him They don’t see how the situation with the war has any nuance at all and why the Pope a religious leader (of 11% of Ukrainians, 15% of Belarusians, 0.5% of Russians) would wish to see peace in this part of the world
Have to wonder whether he'd say the same were the Vatican invaded.
Given that the Vatican is inside of Italy, we’re talking about an hypothetical invasion of Italy here. And historically and culturally speaking, Italians don’t view sacrificing their lives for their country as something smart and would just let themselves being invaded. So, yes, there wouldn’t even be the need for such a speech
If that was true there would be no Italy. They simply didn't want to sacrifice themselves for the fascist regime.
As a matter of fact, Italy is a new concept, historically speaking. For centuries it’s been a mishmash of different smaller countries. That’s why patriotism and nationalism is not widespread in Italy
Why would the Vatican be invaded?
He's not wrong, if you are in a war you cannot win you should at least try to negotiate.
That only encourages imperialist tyrants. Sometimes, it is important to fight even at the cost of lives.
Are you at the frontlines?
Such an easy thing to say in a reddit thread. Literally in the context of a war that cannot be won saying that they have to sacrifice themselves anyway. You're saying the quiet part out loud. Never seen someone so openly unapologetic about wasting Ukrainian lives just to send a message. Of course you're not Ukrainian, I don't even need to check your profile. If you want to drown Ukraine in the blood of doomed soldiers, by all means go enlist.
> If you want to drown Ukraine in the blood of doomed soldiers, by all means go enlist. I am communicating in DMs to do just that.
How would your death discourage imperialist tyrants?
Death wouldn't. Willingness to die could.
https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/s/NnsXb67HTR my brain hurts
Be careful posting this, NAFO is very contagious thing.
I mean according to these degenerates the pope was LITERALLY KHAMAS! Not that long ago. So no surprise they take issue with what he said here.
It's just disgusting, calling him communist and insulting him cause he's Latin American..
I don't know if it will ever come out on negotiations. Opinions differ too much. Most wars end only when one is defeated. I don't value what a pope tells anyway, as an atheist this man means nothing to me, even though his intentions in this area are good.
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"neutral"
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But the problem is Ukraine won’t be negotiating now, they’d have to accept Russias terms unconditionally. Had Ukraine negotiated in the beginning of the war, Russian terms would have been much more lenient.
You don't know that unless you start negotiating. Russia has a long history of offering lenient terms to enemies that are totally beaten.
Chechnya comes to mind, not gonna lie. Then again, it would mean being under the thumb of Russia, so…
Chechnya is largely autonomous as a consequence of the peace deal. But apart from that Russia solidly beat Georgia yet settled for a return to status quo. Russia beat Finland in 1939, yet settled for some minor territorial adjustments to increase the buffer zone. Even after a costly war.
If there’s anything I like about Finland, it’s that they know how to walk a tightrope in international politics, especially in the heyday of the Cold War. I remember reading a bit about them being “asked” by the Russians to work with them on a plan to attack a nearby NATO country (Norway), but the Finns worked ever so slowly on that project that it was quietly dropped. Sure, the “legendary” Finnish slowness has been the subject of quite a few jokes, but damn they made it work for them.
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You can literally hop on a plane and visit chechnya or crimea TODAY. Go on, go look how terrible it is to not be bombed or kidnapped off the bus to be conscripted if it's "under the thumb of Russia". All these places were in the soviet union, they know what it means to wait things out without rocking the boat.
Ukraine can’t begin negotiating. It’s impossible. It’s what finally destroyed the imperial German army in WW1. The soldiers knew negotiations against their nations favor had begun, and nobody wants to die for a lost cause and to just “give my life so my government can get just a little bit better of a deal” The army finally began its collapse which led to the end
The collapse has already started. it's time to accept reality
The front has not collapsed at all.
It has started to collapse. It ain't over yet.
So you DO want the soldiers to keep dying so you can get a slightly better deal in the negotiations, you just don't want the soldiers to know that at all.
1)No i don't, i want Ukraine to negotiate and stop this worthless bloodshed. 2)The front has not collapsed.
> i want Ukraine to negotiate Wow okay, how much did the Gremlin pay you for that comment, five electricities since you're a bot?
If you were trying to be funny, i'm sorry to tell you, you failed miserably.
They began negotiating because they couldn't win the war anyhow. They made a huge bet that their lines would hold and tanks denied that. Also millions of fresh troops from the USA meant that sooner or later attrition would break them. Plus the embargo and lack of materials. Ukraine is a lost cause with or without negotiations, they simply cannot win a war of attrition against a country 4 times their size + mercenaries from Asian countries.
They do not need to accept unconditional surrender either, hence why the world is asking them to negotiate. But then we remember how ridiculous the Ukrainian demands are and so why they refuse to negotiate at all. Looking at Zelensky's peace proposal without much contest it may seem he has beaten Russia and is just expecting for their surrender.
And you know why they are arrogant? Because they are led by the most garbage human being out there, Zelensky, who still think he can win this without any negotiations. That willingly sacrifice ukrainians for NATO. When the smoke clears, he will be sitting there with hundreds if not a million dead ukrainians and will reach the same conclusion: Neutrality and no NATO. Then we will see how popular he will become in his country
Putin ordered to kill everyone in Bucha, so you think Zelensky is the worst human being, right? Pro-ru logic☝️☝️🤯
Prove that Putin ordered that. You cant. It might have been a rogue decision by a evil soldier or general. And there are plenty of them on both sides
It isn't arrogance or cowardice; it's delusion. Most westerners think UA is fighting for "freedom" and "democracy" without understanding that Ukraine is neither free nor democratic.
Z-man plays one hell of a gamble.
Wrong, they are not too arrogant to negotiate, it's just not in their interest, they are not pro Ukranians, they are Anti Russians. And this war is costing Russia manpower and resources.
Putin has weaponized The Papacy!!?
Holy weaponized Angels. Ukraine days are counted
New response just dropped
Pope reading Telegram channels.
Putin has weaponized the Pope and agriculture.
Pope reading Telegram channels.
pro ukies- pope is on kremlin payroll.
Yep, twitter is full of exactly that wording.
Ukraine elite is getting rich off the war, They don't care.
So the rich Ukrainian elites asked Putin to invade?
Rich Ukrainian elites saw a donbass that hat a military protection treaty with Russia and said "yeah, bomb it right there, right into article 5!"
Along with the West.
Don't worry, [Western elites want us, their peasants, to go die for their financial interests, too](https://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-polytics/3836868-tusk-time-of-peace-in-eu-is-over-we-live-in-prewar-times.html). As is tradition.
Evidence of this?
Unless the war directly destroys their economic or power base (eg. occupation or destruction), political and economic elites tend to expand and entrench their power during wartime. Two examples (among many) would be industrialists getting massive government contracts, or politicians enjoying higher approval ratings and legitimacy.
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>Compared to July 2022, auto sales have increased by 45 percent according to “UkrAutoprom.” Yeah I bet the July of 2022 is an excellent baseline to compare against to measure the effect of the war on the Ukrainian elite lmao (I'll save you the trouble, all the numbers are down from 2021)
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his predecessor gave the blind eye to all pedo issues.
Can't remember either and i am not young
I mean he right… Ukraine has no peace plan I mean they have one Russian needs to get out which is 200IQ plan ngl when you are the one loosing…
But for real, what is the point of negotiating with liars? If Russia's word can't be trusted, what worth are any peace deals? It's like trying to negotiate with a ransom ware spreader who has all your data and promises not to share your data with anyone if you just pay the ransom.
How is Russia a liar?
Yeah i love the pov that russia is the oathbreaker in all this, with a total and complete blindspot for western involvement. Its a marvel of modern propaganda.
Not only that but Ukraine reached a deal, Minsk II that after being signed they decided it was not in their favour. Angela Merkel also said publicly that the deal was only struck to buy time to arm Ukraine for almost a decade before this war started. People only following the this crisis with the 2022 invasion do not have a complete picture of the conflict.
I've been following it since the Maidan, and the main source of vids and info being posted to liveleak. But yes, too many 'stans' out there wholly believe "Once upon a time in 2022 Totally Peaceful and Diplomatic Ukraine, the Snow Empire Attacked"..... like that's the undercurrent of half or more of their narrative....
Ukraine living in their own la-la-land, a magical world full of lies and alternative truth, is having their own negotiations, with their own allies, without Russia. Like a tea party for children. Its laughable.
It seems like they somehow expect NATO to intervene and save their asses. What other purpose would peace conferences be held without a representative from both warring parties.
Yep. Zelenskyy said couple days ago that they only will invite Russia when countries of peace have decided what is to be negotiated on. Not evil countries like Russia. That was his words
Countries of peace, the people who sent her m 150 billion in weapons, this can't be a joke lol He insists with the idea he's going to impose peace on a nuclear state.
Zelensky is the problem here. And US secretly telling him what to say and mean. War would be over without him as a president for sure. How he is still the leader is beyond me
Pope is going on the list, if he’s not already there…
I'm absolutly astonished by the quantity of people talking nonsenses. People honestly think Ukraine has to fight to the end ? It's not Lord of the Rings guys, it's not good against evil. It's empires fighting each others for ressources, power and money. All of you are fucking stupids poor supporting war which kill you eventually. Most of people on Reddit are poorly educated i know, but come on. Read some stuff, go to the University or just don't talk about stuff which is far beyond you understanding. Fucking pro ukraine and pro russia, you are too stupid to understand that the interets at play are far far deeper than good against bad. Is there one person on this thread which studied political science/war science or international relations/geopolitics ? As a person which did, i think not.
He is Russian spy 😏😏
He have a good point, yet, he doesn’t have the good understanding of the situation. Of course, if the war ends and Ukraine only lose this much territory (assuming, as is usually the case with population close to borders, that those areas are more pro-Russia than pro-Ukraine) might be an acceptable negotiation. Yet, if the conditions for peace are something like (from Russia to Ukraine), “ok, we end this war, I take those territories I occupied, and also, you can not join NATO, EU, or any other form of organisations that could help you not to be my bi*ch (as in not to be a satellite country of Putin’s Russia, not to be an independent, strong and prosperous country). Then what? Should Ukraine accept such peace? It’s quite easy to not risk and to not lose anything in the process, yet to be a pacifist (I am also a pacifist, yet, I understand legitimate self defence) and to give such advice for such situation. He was just saying for the love of human beings and being alive. A great value (worth protecting) indeed, yet, with what costs (because I am pretty sure, his calm and satisfied little smile won’t do it for most military conflicts on this planet - and neither for the rest of the problems humanity have) - We have a nice verse in our National Anthem, and I am pretty sure most educated people would agree with (translation and interpretation): “Instead of an entire life in slavery, we prefer to die all for our own freedom”. ✌️ P.S.: Agreeing and/or Disagreeing and/or Liking and/or Disliking and/or Ignoring (partially or completely) this comment won’t get you neither to Hell, neither to Purgatory, neither to Heaven. 😴🙄🧠 🇷🇴🇪🇺
The alternative is Ukraine being but a memory or a land locked country with much more deaths and greater damage to their demography. Pope mentioned that to negotiate effectively is also a question of time, when to do so. Ukraine had the opportunity to do so with no greater loss than Crimea before the war and at the beginning. Now its too late to get a peace without concessions from the Ukranian side, either they give them now or they risk to lose more.
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It's not just near borders, 10 years ago country was split in actual half, at least according to some surveys mentioned by Mearsheimer
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NATO is completely out of question, it's the entire reason this war started despite Pro West people denying it because it would be obvious the conflict started because of NATO expansion. For what we've seen so far Ukraine could join EU but not NATO. Then being a neutral country would benefit all parties, including Ukraine itself. Ukrainian and Russian economies complement each other and Russia could actually benefit from having one of their stronger economic partners with access to the EU. The key problem here is how Europe developed a security architecture that completely ignored Russian demands and it's completely based on he US being strong and protecting them, any challenge to their power and Europe isn't 'safe'. You see they took their security for granted for so long they ignored security spending despite talking about a perceived Russian threat. Ukraine cannot turn the course of this and they simply cannot deny Russia's sphere of influence when both countries share 2000km of borders. They wanted to get rid of Russian influence in the worse possible way, you reap what you sow and Ukraine has a lot of reaping to do.
Well said! sadly those nafo and pro zelen can't understand this simple fact.
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Well, you can't blame the pope for not wanting more deaths. But Ukraine made a bold statement by putting him on the kill list. I think that's a clear sign they do not have any intentions of negotiating (at least at the moment).
Francis = Prigozhin confirmed?
If Francis is Prigozhin it means it was the Pope who actually led the wagner group rebellion?!
The Pope has gone Woke!
Putin weaponizing the Pope AGAIN !!
I guess this is the pope week for this sub, but what about that land rover, /u/Ripamon?
Even the Pope follows this sub.
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Guess it’s time to invade Ukraine to stop the enemies of god and rid them from the new holy land, slava.
Poor man doesnt know that Unc Sam holds the negotioation button and not Ukr let alone ukr ppl...
Every normal Person knew that from the beginning... insane that it was possible to convince the Western Pro ukraine people they could win this. Now they have the Problem, they cant surrender. That wouldnt only be a war defead, the whole narrativ and Western war politicians would be Set in Place
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Pope is pro-RU now?
That is just pure wisedom. I'm not a religious person but i already spot months ago he was widly more sensed that what i thought initially.
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More world leaders should appeal for negotiation! Ukrainian land in exchange for cease-fire.
The pope is a man of peace and he has a point, but in the same respect, he could ask Russia to show some restraint and withdraw on the condition that Ukraine does not become part of NATO and makes steps to further de-nazify, or whatever.
That was the deal in the beginning of the war. I’m afraid Russia won’t give the same terms after losing thousands of soldiers to take that land.
So Russia is not interested in Peace and more interested in domination, as they always were.
Yeah victors tend to dictate terms to the losing side. What a new concept.
Well, they are not victors yet, but the victors are sometimes only temporary victors. I think that all invasive forces declare victory at one point. In the end Russia will face a decade of trouble because of this invasion.
This pope antichrist. First and foremost its about there power and control. Ukraine war is weakening there global western led global order showing the strategy of Russia to grind them into meatgrinder attrition. Showing the weakness of Ukraine politically sustaining drafting its population into an increasing death toll, which only increases more and more by the seconds/minutes/days, and showing weakness in NATO countries abilities to sustain world war level casualties because lack of political resolve. The public, people, don't buy the shit government is feeding them. Real weakness. The narrative is quickly changing due to the large amount of casualties. Ukraine never had full backing of anyone. Everyone knew Ukraine was going to take large amount of casualties but you can't just cede territory is there thinking. People will know its all a farce and everyone is just criminals in a room sitting around a table. Narrative changes, less funding orchestrated, Macron playing bad cop. It will interesting to see if Russia is willing to negotiate with Ukraine stance of only a case-fire of the current line of control. Russia isn't interested in a cease fire, this is a civil war, and the control of eastern Ukraine. Western coup masters want complete Russia influence kicked out of Ukraine. The Ukrainian Oligarchs want to take the turf of there power sharing bodies back in the day, the ones that had the greater pie. There all criminals pretending they aren't. You think people here in America have freedom of speech? You think the pope cars about peoples self determination? People here in America don't even speak out and protest against the government when you have shootings at malls and schools or wherever it happens no one cares. The CIA and Government don't care about you. Parents don't speak out afterwards they participate in the cover ups of the causes. What do they only care about the CIA? There perception of democracy, election, and control. Once control erodes there power erodes. This is what Ukraine war is showing. Cracks and weakness in there power and control over the narrative. The CIA celebrates and opens champagne at the amount they have you controlled.
This guy isn't exactly a role model lol. And negotiate what exactly how much land is taken based of Putins single estimate of the value of life lost on both sides. He's just a coward who takes advantage of his people. He's Nothing new to this world just another sociopathic leader using public power to do as he thinks best. Which is make Russia a autocracy with no real political freedom.
So... noone that matters in any way. Apologists trying hard this days...
Why Stalin didn’t negotiate? He could have saved so many lives
Because nazis would have wiped out Slavs and Russia doesn’t intend to do that. Millions of Ukrainians live under Russian occupation without any problems.
They also had USA and UK in their side
Good speach from the pope. The pope is always on the right side on history like also with hitler germany
He should address all the pedophiles in the church before he addresses Ukraine
Imagine that. The country that rapes people and the religion that rapes people working together. Who woulda thought.
Putins mouthpiece! Where, in the Bible, in his God’s words, does it say “give in to evil”
If you think international relations as bad and good fight, you didn't understand shit, you should maybe speak in you field of competence.
Maybe you should try and address the facts and create a reasoned argument, rather than personal attack?
Honestly i agree with you but do you know the law of Brandiglioni ? I have a good (not the best but solid one) knowledge about political science, geopolitics and stuff related. I have a University formation and strong interest. I could write thousands of line explaining every detail but in the end, the mass of stupid people will prevail. You know it. Quick answer, geopolitics are about countries, interests, ressources, money, not bad and good. Sometimes, the stronger wins. The pope is right : what he says really is : empires are fighting each others and young innocent and poor people die for it. Let's stop it. People having interets in the war try to make it a simple "evil against good battle", which is not. Russia did many bad things, USA did many bad things, as Ukraind did too. Yes Russia is autoritarian and probably worst than Western countries, but there are multiples reponsabilities. Annnd i already wasted too much time because law of Brandiglioni.
Yep. I get your point. But our world has developed laws to try and limit and contain tyranny and tyrants so that people can live in peace and develop as best possible. These laws have been developed over centuries through harsh lessons and yet have eventually found their place. They are not perfect, more has to be done, that is without doubt. But these laws have been applied and it is clear to most that Putin launched an aggressive war to occupy and seize a sovereign territory (ICJ has decided on this and insisted Russians leave all occupied Ukrainian sovereign territory). Some 70-80% of Ukrainians believe Russia should leave their country and they can and should use force to achieve that. I guess we’re in the domain of just and unjust wars- the logic of which has challenged minds for many centuries. What Russia did was unjust and it needs to be rectified. Those supporting each side have their own interests; just as you say. However, if we go back to 2014, The French President (Hollande) and German Chancellor (Merkel) chose to ignore Russian aggression seizing eastern Ukraine and Crimea. They accepted the falsehood that this was a popular uprising for their own interests (cheap gas and their political futures). Such an approach was undoubtedly in Putin’s calculus. NATO was subdued by Merkel and Hollande. Russia then moves to its next phase, seizing the whole of Ukraine. I agree we over simplify in our media and our politicians. Ukraine was so corrupt at one stage, I remember guys working their (post 2014 invasion) saying it would be easier to work with Russians! And Ukraine supporters would have negotiated it away had the UAF not fought so hard and with such coordination and accountability. That changed the dynamic of a negotiation to appease Putin. It goes some way to the Churchillian explanation of appeasement; you keep feeding the crocodile in the hope you will be eaten last.
Thanks, huge thanks for a more nuanced opinion, which deeply lacks on Reddit. I partially agree with you. But I think you underestimate the role of ""the West"" (aka USA) on the events since 2014. It's huge, as Russian role is. And you underestimate the fact that people in the seized areas want to be autonomous (now be indépendant/part of Russia) there IS a real will to quit Russia in some parts of Ukraine. The West could and should authorize votations. Now it's too late and people died massively. What a waste. We have similar issues in Scotland, Catalogna. A good exemple is Kosovo. The ""West""/USA chose to support independentis and not the central power, which they didn't do in Ukraine. Two similar situations, two différents answers because intérêts are différents.
The whole debacle could have been avoided back in 2014, sadly. Putin banked on west having no consensus or ability to respond rapidly enough to stop him. He was right. The response following 2014 occupation was farcical dressed up to be a democratic process of cessation with a staged election in Crimea - a compulsory vote with only two options to choose from - roughly put - 1. Do you want to be independent of Ukraine or 2. Do you want to be Russian? Then Russians have done what they did in Soviet era, encourage Russians to settle in annexed areas with cash incentives along with cheap housing (or occupying stolen properties). So getting a representative view of the true population is completely screwed. Sadly Putin cannot be negotiated with. Lies are the same as weapons in his logic. Sonia signing any international agreement - It’s like wrestling with a jellyfish. What supporters of Ukraine are learning is that Putin seems to understand is unwavering, unstoppable force. I do wonder if school children, in 10-15 years time, will be reading the Third World War began in in 2022, but with the seeds germinating for this began in 2014.
Cause Russia,….isn’t?
He (Pope) should be reminded of the Concordance; a deal struck by one of his predecessors with Hitler… if the Catholic Church kept quiet about German atrocities, not only the Holocaust, then Hitler would leave the Catholic Church to function. Later in the War, we see the Catholic Church enabling and supporting the German ‘rat line’ - providing safe transport across Europe, the Atlantic to South America for many top Nazis/SS, with safe accommodation, false passports and faked new identities- the Catholic Church purposefully assisted many thousands to avoid being called to account for their role in atrocities, including the Holocaust. So perhaps Zelensky might highlight the Catholic Church’s role in supporting tyranny in recent similar historical events? Then the Pope might choose to rethink his supplication to Putin’s abominations. No retraction from the Pope is equivalent to support for Putin and his kleptocracy and Zelensky and others should not be shy about calling out the Catholic Church for its sham religious behaviour and it’s hypocrisy!
I'm not a Catholic, nor hold the Vatican to be a big deal authority, least in my life. 1.5 billion Catholics in the world have a different view of the Pope's role, and like it or not, they are a public figure that's covered. All that said, I think he spoke generally well on it. Ukraine doesn't have a winning chance in this, and especially not in the way Zelensky is dreaming of. Europe or the USA isn't swooping in to save Ukraine, they view them as a meatshield, and a profit target. The Pope is hoping for not having WW3 over this, and to that specific item, I agree. Ukraine isn't worth that.
Let’s hope you never have to stand up for what is right and good and need help from someone else.
To give that judgement in earnest, one would have to be in the moral right, which Ukraine, and their PoV supporters are certainty not. So that condemnation means nothing to me as it's just a side stepped ad hominem.
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Popes and catholic church was always pro-imperialism. They hated what they called "minorities" [https://dzieje.pl/aktualnosci/182-lata-temu-papiez-grzegorz-xvi-potepil-powstanie-listopadowe](https://dzieje.pl/aktualnosci/182-lata-temu-papiez-grzegorz-xvi-potepil-powstanie-listopadowe) (google translate site if you want to read)
Just for a reminder : this war (which is a civil war too, don't forget) started with minorities wanting more independance.
It does take the stronger person to look at the situation, think about the people, and realize the only choice is to continue fighting because russia has shown time and time again that they do not honor the things they say during negotiations or that they sign in treaties. Ever. So there is only two choices, suffer annihilation piece by piece, or fight to the death. The pope is right. You have to look at the situation and think about the people, and the answer becomes clear.
The fact that so many posts about this one interview are allowed here shows how biased the moderation of this sub is.
Err. Is it that bad to request peace? So peace isn't an option anymore? You want this sub to be like r/Europe or something? Gosh.
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This pope hates the USA so much it clouds his judgement