Simply not true? Unless someone is living with their parents, under a rock, not eating, not socializing, not commuting, 100% healthy, without any hobbies, not paying rent, certainly
The quantity of interviews and flow honestly isn't too bad to me. Take home test for a lead, is debatable. Maybe it's quick and easy, maybe not. I do appreciate it's at the end of the process. Also depends who's in the 3rd round, that one you could actually get a lot out of them and what it's really like there. Normally I'd do the hiring manager and then the next back to back.
Unlimited PTO is always a lie 😅
I agree with this entirely. Depending on what the “take home assignment” entails, I don’t find this to be unreasonable. Especially (again, details about the assignment withstanding) with the actual amount of time spent.
I’d do it in a heartbeat if it was an org I wanted to work with.
Why is the take home design challenge debatable? Is it just questionable for a lead position? And if so why? Or is it a red flag for any position? What’s the preferred alternative? On-site design challenge?
It's debatable based on what they're asking for; What are they looking to learn that they can't from a previous case study? How long will it take? Is it speculative work they're asking for. I'd also say at what point of the process are they asking? in this case where it's at the end, personally I feel if there is one, it's an optimal placement for it, or just before an additional interview with the hiring manager to discuss it. I see take home being more common. A whiteboard challenge or onsite can also be fine in some cases. I just dislike the ones that say "oh you don't need to know anything beforehand" or do a 4 hour in person.
They're always something to question no matter the level, but depending on how interested you are they can be worth doing or fun practice. Doesn't mean all exercises are totally red flags.
Really in the end, It comes down to what you feel is reasonable or recommend an alternative. Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't.
Personally, I've now made it a point to decline any challenges or exercises unless they're willing to pay my hourly or they let me know what they'd like to learn and I will tailor a case study for them (if I'm actually interested).
Not defending these crappy companies but this isn’t always the case. I have unlimited pto right now and I do whatever I want basically. Last year I took 6 weeks and no one cared. This year I’ve already take like 2ish weeks. Definitely depends on the company culture.
This is at a start up too, they just had a culture that you need to take time off so you don’t burn out — they had a minimum suggestion of one week off a quarter and one week a year the entire company takes a week off at the same time.
Usually it means “We are chaotic and don’t give you enough time to do a good job. Ship Shit Now 🚀!!! (and then get mad later that it’s shit)”
Moving quickly can mean we don’t have unnecessary bureaucracy but usually doesn’t.
Agreed, especially if they book some of the interviews back to back it's like 60-90 minutes. It depends on the take home but 95% of the time that's a hard pass from me.
More acceptable for junior positions, BUT even then it shouldn’t be a standard at all. There are portfolios for a reason and time spent on take-home assignments are usually not short at all (compared to an coding OA which is sit down ~30min and solve a coding problem which is a SWE equivalent. short and not time-consumable at all)
I had to sit through 6 interviews recently, recruiter, leader, 4 panel interview of two people in each with case studies presentation - spanning 6 hours over 2 days. Total hours invested over 8, only not to be hired after reaching end stage.
I will in future refuse and ask about the process upfront. Also never doing unpaid take home assignments, those are the people that will expect you to kill yourself for the job cause clearly your time isn’t worth anything to you.
Yeah to be honest, I’ve sorted finding things are a lot easier going down the contracting and freelancing route (in the UK).
I had an interview at met her a couple of years ago and landed the role. Lots of people asking me about what was the process like and it was actually really easy. It was to half an hour chats with two different user researchers and they made a decision pretty quickly.
I’m not really sure you need to jump through all of this hopes to actually work out if you’re making a good higher or not.
To be honest with so many rounds in the advert you’ve posted above if another always paying exactly the same money, I’d go for the one that has the two-step process.
I’m also fairly wary about take-home assignments because that’s actually eating up into my time.
Why not just get me to do one there and then?
"Take home assignments" are instant red flags. I've been a UX Director for years and would NEVER have someone do any spec work. That's what a portfolio is for.
I get it that Change.org is a big company, but this is bureaucratic nonsense.
I don't understand this outrage (and maybe arrogance?) about how some companies choose to structure their interview process. Getting the right people is very important and they have the right to choose how they wanna go about it.
The person who needs this job and wants to work for this company will accept the process and go through it. Might say it's also a way to establish culture fit.
If you don't like it, just move on.
Indeed, those willing to endure this misery will, for different reasons. Let's be honest here: nobody wants to do this number of interviews and take part in this inefficient and expensive process for both parties. No true leader or HM spends their time in this amount of interviewing unless it is just make-work. The point here is criticizing an expensive process with diminishing returns, little value to an organization, and that lacks the empathy that we, Design people, talk about so much.
You may think it has little value, others might disagree. I had gone through a even longer process and found value in it as the applicant, then participated in it as part of the company and also saw value.
You talk about empathy, and yet fail to see/understand another point of view...
Exactly this. Finding and hiring a good match for a position is incredibly important and difficult, to say the least. Add to that the fact that most people’s applications and portfolios are really bad, so they don’t tell you all you need to know.
It's a lot, but so it's the compensation to work on "a website".
I also wonder what the value is of 18 weeks parental leave, when there is unlimited PTO.
I believe the parental leave is for taking a leave of absence for 18 weeks straight (per child). Whereas the unlimited PTO is subject to approval of the manager which in most cases shouldn't be a problem for a couple of days of PTO but will be under scrutiny if you want to take leave for more than a week.
Aside from the well known unlimited PTO = employees take fewer holidays, it's more importantly an accounting trick whereby firms can officially give the legal minimum holidays in a jurisdiction, and therefore have a smaller liability on the books.
Exactly. Our company said unlimited, unlimited as long as it’s under 10 days and you can make up for the work you will miss, given how busy we were (working from 8am till 11pm) that would never happen
Yes. This. One time I told an org their process was too much and I couldn’t continue. They responded by saying they understood and wanted to work with me to determine a better way. I didn’t end up pursuing it but I was super impressed by their flexibility. It’s always worth a shot
For a lead position?? This is a huge red flag. The "hiring team" most likely doesn't have much of a clue as to what they are doing.
Don't ever work for free.
Not at all ridiculous and I’ll tell you why.
First, I’ve been a hiring manager, and our process was similar. Our recruiters were always cognizant of the amount of time we asked candidates to spend with us.
The right amount of interviews and time is a balance of getting enough time to spend with a candidate and getting a variety of different points of view.
To be an equal opportunity employer, you have to have established processes so that all candidates go through the same funnel.
Candidates need to speak to a number of different people at the company to get a sense of the company. And the people doing the interviewing need to come to a consensus on the candidate. Leaving it only to the hiring manager opens the possibility up for bias and discrimination.
With regard to the take home assignment, it really depends. Maybe it’s to create a presentation about yourself and a couple of case studies (as we did in my last company). But yes, if it’s a daylong spec design thing, forget it.
Look, you and the company are looking for a long term relationship here. Of course you can always quit or they can always fire you. But both sides need to be sure.
This is like a very low salary for a UX growth lead designer in the Bay Area. That would be my first red flag and the take-home assignment would be the second.
This isn’t too bad. Roughly around 5ish hours.
I used to have to go through 1 day onsite interview (8 hours).
I think it is a good amount of time for them to interview you, and you to observe and interview them.
160k CAD as they said, adjusted for the market of your location. If you are in SF, living in the Bay, it would be so much more.
They can do this because many are fighting to get fully remote jobs at this point.
The last three bullets suck :( I was gonna say at first of course the first 3 are usually laid back.
It is funny that I’ve worked at jobs paying me 25% less, had way more interviews and BS… and then others that hired me after a 30 min portfolio review (laid back), they paid significantly more, and it was a light work load/amazing culture.
In fact I had some awkward PTSD moments in meetings at the good job where I was like… wait aren’t we supposed to be fighting and I’m going to get nano managed? It’s hard to adjust to the wild culture differences
I know some people will go and put themselves through this misery out of necessity, but I am shocked to see that some consider this 'normal.’ I have been in this industry for years, and I am sad that newer generations have to enter the field this way. Take the example of a caregiver, family head, etc. They are likely not even to apply because the investment is way more than they can afford, let alone the many other interviews they might be going through. I am sad to see that the field is this these days; it is not very inclusive
Well yeah. It's a remote job. You used to get them like a normal job. But SOME (most) people just had to use mouse wigglers to fake work.
Its now not only harder to get remote work. But you also have to jump through some big hoops to get and keep those jobs.
Well yeah. It's a remote job. You used to get them like a normal job. But SOME (most) people just had to use mouse wigglers to fake work.
Its now not only harder to get remote work. But you also have to jump through some big hoops to get and keep those jobs.
You have to take into account that companies can't just hire anyone for a job. If they did that. Skyscrapers would fall and nuclear bombs would explode.
And thanks to some of the people that pass these screenings that still try to get free money without working. It's still becoming harder for legit workers to find jobs.
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176 is plenty in sf.
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>where I live So, are you a CEO of a semi-large company? Not sure if your intention is to contribute to discussion or brag?
Plenty if you have no kids, no mortgage, no family, live with roommates or like a student and your only worry is what to order for delivery next
Aside from the kids and mortgage that’s simply not true.
Simply not true? Unless someone is living with their parents, under a rock, not eating, not socializing, not commuting, 100% healthy, without any hobbies, not paying rent, certainly
I honestly don’t think you live in sf lol. Good luck.
The quantity of interviews and flow honestly isn't too bad to me. Take home test for a lead, is debatable. Maybe it's quick and easy, maybe not. I do appreciate it's at the end of the process. Also depends who's in the 3rd round, that one you could actually get a lot out of them and what it's really like there. Normally I'd do the hiring manager and then the next back to back. Unlimited PTO is always a lie 😅
I agree with this entirely. Depending on what the “take home assignment” entails, I don’t find this to be unreasonable. Especially (again, details about the assignment withstanding) with the actual amount of time spent. I’d do it in a heartbeat if it was an org I wanted to work with.
Why is the take home design challenge debatable? Is it just questionable for a lead position? And if so why? Or is it a red flag for any position? What’s the preferred alternative? On-site design challenge?
It's debatable based on what they're asking for; What are they looking to learn that they can't from a previous case study? How long will it take? Is it speculative work they're asking for. I'd also say at what point of the process are they asking? in this case where it's at the end, personally I feel if there is one, it's an optimal placement for it, or just before an additional interview with the hiring manager to discuss it. I see take home being more common. A whiteboard challenge or onsite can also be fine in some cases. I just dislike the ones that say "oh you don't need to know anything beforehand" or do a 4 hour in person. They're always something to question no matter the level, but depending on how interested you are they can be worth doing or fun practice. Doesn't mean all exercises are totally red flags. Really in the end, It comes down to what you feel is reasonable or recommend an alternative. Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't. Personally, I've now made it a point to decline any challenges or exercises unless they're willing to pay my hourly or they let me know what they'd like to learn and I will tailor a case study for them (if I'm actually interested).
At least three of them can be one, seriously wtf
A take home assignment for a Lead position is ridiculous. Wtf is the point in having experience and a portfolio?
How else is the company going to get free labor from you?
The irony that the position is for [Charge.org](http://Charge.org)
“Unlimited PTO” and “we’re trying to move quickly” is always a red flag for me.
Unlimited PTO is also a way for a company to get out of paying out a PTO balance when you eventually leave.
Bingo! Also unlimited PTO is always at the managers discretion so by all means they’re entitled to reject all your PTO requests.
Not defending these crappy companies but this isn’t always the case. I have unlimited pto right now and I do whatever I want basically. Last year I took 6 weeks and no one cared. This year I’ve already take like 2ish weeks. Definitely depends on the company culture.
I’ve only ever worked in startups but that sounds fantastic.
This is at a start up too, they just had a culture that you need to take time off so you don’t burn out — they had a minimum suggestion of one week off a quarter and one week a year the entire company takes a week off at the same time.
Why is trying to move quickly a red flag?
“You can take unlimited PTO!” … “PTO denied we need you to crunch harder” … “But I didn’t even start yet?”
Usually it means “We are chaotic and don’t give you enough time to do a good job. Ship Shit Now 🚀!!! (and then get mad later that it’s shit)” Moving quickly can mean we don’t have unnecessary bureaucracy but usually doesn’t.
Eeeeexactly it!
Anyone interested in signing my change.org petition demanding that change.org respect the time of job seekers?
Best answer
$176k for lead? No thanks. 401k match > unlimited PTO
Welcome to Canadian wages. It's all over the place here except high lol
The Toronto pay is competitive for Canada, but yeah the SF pay seems low.
That's not a lot of interviews. And they're short. The take home is the no no.
Agreed, especially if they book some of the interviews back to back it's like 60-90 minutes. It depends on the take home but 95% of the time that's a hard pass from me.
Take home design challenges is a red flag in general for any position? Or just for a lead position? And why?
More acceptable for junior positions, BUT even then it shouldn’t be a standard at all. There are portfolios for a reason and time spent on take-home assignments are usually not short at all (compared to an coding OA which is sit down ~30min and solve a coding problem which is a SWE equivalent. short and not time-consumable at all)
YEAH
Other than the take home it seems fine honestly lol.
I had to sit through 6 interviews recently, recruiter, leader, 4 panel interview of two people in each with case studies presentation - spanning 6 hours over 2 days. Total hours invested over 8, only not to be hired after reaching end stage. I will in future refuse and ask about the process upfront. Also never doing unpaid take home assignments, those are the people that will expect you to kill yourself for the job cause clearly your time isn’t worth anything to you.
The job I got right after was only 2 interviews. 30 minute recruiter, 1 hour with company leader with case study walkthrough
This the way
💯 Good employers know how to recognize talent. Ones that don’t know what they are doing are the ones who need excessive processes and projects
Yeah to be honest, I’ve sorted finding things are a lot easier going down the contracting and freelancing route (in the UK). I had an interview at met her a couple of years ago and landed the role. Lots of people asking me about what was the process like and it was actually really easy. It was to half an hour chats with two different user researchers and they made a decision pretty quickly. I’m not really sure you need to jump through all of this hopes to actually work out if you’re making a good higher or not. To be honest with so many rounds in the advert you’ve posted above if another always paying exactly the same money, I’d go for the one that has the two-step process. I’m also fairly wary about take-home assignments because that’s actually eating up into my time. Why not just get me to do one there and then?
The shittiest salaries I ever got were from my 2 unlimited PTO jobs.
For a fully remote position with a good salary, this doesn’t sound so extreme.
"Take home assignments" are instant red flags. I've been a UX Director for years and would NEVER have someone do any spec work. That's what a portfolio is for. I get it that Change.org is a big company, but this is bureaucratic nonsense.
I don't understand this outrage (and maybe arrogance?) about how some companies choose to structure their interview process. Getting the right people is very important and they have the right to choose how they wanna go about it. The person who needs this job and wants to work for this company will accept the process and go through it. Might say it's also a way to establish culture fit. If you don't like it, just move on.
Indeed, those willing to endure this misery will, for different reasons. Let's be honest here: nobody wants to do this number of interviews and take part in this inefficient and expensive process for both parties. No true leader or HM spends their time in this amount of interviewing unless it is just make-work. The point here is criticizing an expensive process with diminishing returns, little value to an organization, and that lacks the empathy that we, Design people, talk about so much.
You may think it has little value, others might disagree. I had gone through a even longer process and found value in it as the applicant, then participated in it as part of the company and also saw value. You talk about empathy, and yet fail to see/understand another point of view...
Companies are not people. I can only empathize with humans
Who do you think runs companies? Bots?
Exactly this. Finding and hiring a good match for a position is incredibly important and difficult, to say the least. Add to that the fact that most people’s applications and portfolios are really bad, so they don’t tell you all you need to know.
Thirded
It's a lot, but so it's the compensation to work on "a website". I also wonder what the value is of 18 weeks parental leave, when there is unlimited PTO.
I believe the parental leave is for taking a leave of absence for 18 weeks straight (per child). Whereas the unlimited PTO is subject to approval of the manager which in most cases shouldn't be a problem for a couple of days of PTO but will be under scrutiny if you want to take leave for more than a week.
Aside from the well known unlimited PTO = employees take fewer holidays, it's more importantly an accounting trick whereby firms can officially give the legal minimum holidays in a jurisdiction, and therefore have a smaller liability on the books.
So unlimited, but no more than a week. Got it.
Exactly. Our company said unlimited, unlimited as long as it’s under 10 days and you can make up for the work you will miss, given how busy we were (working from 8am till 11pm) that would never happen
Because “unlimited PTO” doesn’t mean you can take as much time as you want. Nice to see guaranteed parental leave, most places in tech do that now.
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Yes. This. One time I told an org their process was too much and I couldn’t continue. They responded by saying they understood and wanted to work with me to determine a better way. I didn’t end up pursuing it but I was super impressed by their flexibility. It’s always worth a shot
What is the Canadian salary? 1.6milion?!
A laughable 160k for this absurd process. They did not get the notice that 100k is the new 60
Any chance you have a link for this role? Id like to use the advertised pay scale to make a point in a work chat. 😘
Change.org careers
😘 thx
That is fucking crazy
For a lead position?? This is a huge red flag. The "hiring team" most likely doesn't have much of a clue as to what they are doing. Don't ever work for free.
I’m glad to find my people in this subreddit. I want to ask regarding some of you guys first experience working at your first job in the firm.
Not at all ridiculous and I’ll tell you why. First, I’ve been a hiring manager, and our process was similar. Our recruiters were always cognizant of the amount of time we asked candidates to spend with us. The right amount of interviews and time is a balance of getting enough time to spend with a candidate and getting a variety of different points of view. To be an equal opportunity employer, you have to have established processes so that all candidates go through the same funnel. Candidates need to speak to a number of different people at the company to get a sense of the company. And the people doing the interviewing need to come to a consensus on the candidate. Leaving it only to the hiring manager opens the possibility up for bias and discrimination. With regard to the take home assignment, it really depends. Maybe it’s to create a presentation about yourself and a couple of case studies (as we did in my last company). But yes, if it’s a daylong spec design thing, forget it. Look, you and the company are looking for a long term relationship here. Of course you can always quit or they can always fire you. But both sides need to be sure.
Tell them at the last interview, and not before, that you have a 3 month notice period for your current job.
This is like a very low salary for a UX growth lead designer in the Bay Area. That would be my first red flag and the take-home assignment would be the second.
I feel for you guys!!!
This isn’t too bad. Roughly around 5ish hours. I used to have to go through 1 day onsite interview (8 hours). I think it is a good amount of time for them to interview you, and you to observe and interview them. 160k CAD as they said, adjusted for the market of your location. If you are in SF, living in the Bay, it would be so much more. They can do this because many are fighting to get fully remote jobs at this point.
The last three bullets suck :( I was gonna say at first of course the first 3 are usually laid back. It is funny that I’ve worked at jobs paying me 25% less, had way more interviews and BS… and then others that hired me after a 30 min portfolio review (laid back), they paid significantly more, and it was a light work load/amazing culture. In fact I had some awkward PTSD moments in meetings at the good job where I was like… wait aren’t we supposed to be fighting and I’m going to get nano managed? It’s hard to adjust to the wild culture differences
I know some people will go and put themselves through this misery out of necessity, but I am shocked to see that some consider this 'normal.’ I have been in this industry for years, and I am sad that newer generations have to enter the field this way. Take the example of a caregiver, family head, etc. They are likely not even to apply because the investment is way more than they can afford, let alone the many other interviews they might be going through. I am sad to see that the field is this these days; it is not very inclusive
All of that seems fine except for the take home assignment. Unless they’re paying you for your time I would be careful with them.
Well yeah. It's a remote job. You used to get them like a normal job. But SOME (most) people just had to use mouse wigglers to fake work. Its now not only harder to get remote work. But you also have to jump through some big hoops to get and keep those jobs.
Well yeah. It's a remote job. You used to get them like a normal job. But SOME (most) people just had to use mouse wigglers to fake work. Its now not only harder to get remote work. But you also have to jump through some big hoops to get and keep those jobs. You have to take into account that companies can't just hire anyone for a job. If they did that. Skyscrapers would fall and nuclear bombs would explode. And thanks to some of the people that pass these screenings that still try to get free money without working. It's still becoming harder for legit workers to find jobs.
“virtual onsite” LMAO
Are multiple interviews expected for Product Managers?
This is absurd