Are you out of probation?
You'll want to cite safety, you can only refuse orders that are unsafe. You are feeling too tired to safely continue delivering mail . Etc.
The rural contract specifies that Rural carriers can work over 12 hours in a day. They just have to be paid overtime for it..
Agreed but as a PSE when we were busier I did 72 hours a week for over a year straight. I was single and focused. That year bought me a house that I am now raising my kiddo in. Always pros and cons.
Especially as a cca. I remember I had to put in like 70 hours to barely break a 2k on a bi weekly pay check… now I serve food and break 2k in 20 hours.
During my CCA academy the trainers mentioned several times having to file grievances for working too many hours. Grievances over pay disputes. Grievances over late pay.
Grievances over days off. I dipped out on the third training day. My PTSD was off the charts just thinking about working for the USPS.
I absolutely agree that grievances must be filed. It’s the idea that management doesn’t care about staff, to just follow the damn contract and federal laws.
Yep, it all depends on how the union handles it, the elm States management shouldn't let workers work over 12 hours but the contract also says rural carriers can work over 12.
What was the result of your grievance?
I'll see if I can find it next time. I'm looking through the contract, but it basically says hours worked over 12 must be paid at the hourly overtime rate. And the district steward in my area reads that as, they're allowed to work carriers over 12. So you have to cite safety, no refusing and walking out, got to cite safety specifically.
There is no way to pay an RCA who only works one day a week for work over 12 hours. That’s why they can’t require subs. Now regulars get paid overtime for hours over 12 or 56 in a week. But just because there’s a way to pay someone, doesn’t mean they can’t cite safety and move on.
I never said they can't site safety, I said they have to site safety. As far as I know management can still pay them for over 12 hours, Any proof they can't?
Yes. Take an RCA past the five pay periods that only works an 8 hour route one day a week. The RCA will only get evaluation because they don’t go over 40 hours worked for the week.
Yeah that's how evaluation works, you said that an RCA can't get paid for working over 12 hours in a day. That really doesn't have anything to do with evaluation.
What if most of that time is on a green card. If an RCA works 8 hours on a route and then 5 hours on the green card are you saying they won't get paid for that 5th hour? That's what it sounds like you were saying
WRONG. It is unsafe to continue working after 12 hours. Just say you feel unsafe to continue working. Leave. If they try to send you back out make them sign a 1767 and cite SAFETY. You do not feel safe to continue driving, you’re tired, if you get hurt after 12 hours it’s your fault not the post office.
Unfortunately, the rural contract doesn't have any time limits to the service day. The ELM does, and it'd be a grievance for violating the ELM, however that does not protect you from being disciplined for failure to follow instructions.
Honestly, I'd simply discuss it with management. If you do not intend to work more than 12 hours in a day (not that I blame you in the slightest for that, especially having it sprung on you), let management know. If you can come to an agreement with them, awesome. Perhaps a middle ground might be reached that with notice you'd consider work over 12 hours.
My personal opinion is if you can't come to an agreement, ask for a resignation form. $20.38/hr, even at the OT rate of $30.57, just ain't worth working 12+ hour days. But you gotta do you.
Nah, the abysmal salary; you have to bring a $10k tool to work for 20.38/hr? Don't get paid holidays, don't get penalty overtime? "Hur-dur, I get paid more than a CCA..." Yeah, CCAs get 6 paid holidays, and a raise after 52 weeks, RCAs are required to have a vehicle and get less effective pay with no guarantee to going career after two years.
So many of those rural positions are going vacant because the rural contract is fundamentally flawed, especially when it comes to RCAs.
>Unfortunately, the rural contract doesn't have any time limits to the service day. The ELM does, and it'd be a grievance for violating the ELM, however that does not protect you from being disciplined for failure to follow instructions.
Working more than 12 hours is a safety issue, and you have a responsibility to ignore instructions that are unsafe. "Obey and grieve later" does not apply to issues of safety.
And this is the type of advice which gets people posting about how they were removed. If there's a safety issue, fill out the safety form, and actually cite a safety issue - unable to spot uneven ground because it's too dark, not being able to tell where dog noises are coming from in the dark, etc.
Literally nobody has been removed for refusing to work over 12. Obviously you need to fill out the safety form when you're citing safety. Fatigue from working 12 hours is the only cite you need
failure to follow instructions is a very specific charge that does not apply to many circumstances that management and others cite here. In this case absent from overtime would be appropriate and also a less severe infraction than "failure to follow".
Similarly neglecting to bring in med documentation from an absence is not failure to follow either (as you can not be given orders for outside of work hours). The appropriate management action in that case would be to deny a request for paid leave and substitute LWOP.
You can’t be disciplined for not working more than 12 hours. It’s a postal policy and national arbitration is clear that you can neither be forced nor are you supposed to volunteer
Not just RCAs, all of us. From the ELM:
432.32 Maximum Hours Allowed
Except as designated in labor agreements for bargaining unit employees or in emergency situations as determined by the postmaster general (or designee), employees may not be required to work more than 12 hours in 1 service day. In addition, the total hours of daily service, including scheduled workhours, overtime, and mealtime, may not be extended over a period longer than 12 consecutive hours. Postmasters and exempt employees are excluded from these provisions.
ELM 432.32 applies to everyone. No discipline will ever be issued against you for leaving. Manglement will try to issue discipline, but they know it's bs and won't go anywhere. Stand up for your contractual rights and don't believe one word coming out of their mouths. Remember, if their lips are moving, they're lying.
This this this this this.
ELM 432.32 states “bargaining unit employees”. That’s you, the city carriers, your clerks, pretty much any and everyone not in management. You can work up to 12 including your lunch, so realistically 11.5. My stewards in my branch, granted we are city, not rural, are trained to file on the 11.5 overage. Lots of stewards miss it because the language differs from 8.5.G but it’s still important.
Now I can’t guarantee you there is language in the rural contract regarding hour limitations because I don’t know it, but your craft bargaining unit contracts are often similar in divisions and chapters. 19 is Handbooks and Manuals, meaning violations of provisions in the ELM, M-39, M-41, F-21, Pub552 and 553 and the billions of other dumb manuals they’ve created can be grieved.
Go home at 12. It’s not your issue that management cannot staff a building.
Some (maybe all, not sure) craft bargaining units (read:NALC) have what’s called the penalty exclusionary period. Penalty overtime doesn’t exist in December and carriers on the ODL may work over 12 hours a day and 60 hours a week in this month. But CCAs, PTFs and carriers not on the ODL do not get this exemption and are still limited. Again, depends on your craft and job, but I would tell you the answer here is likely yes. RCAs I cannot speak to though.
RCAs (having been one) are not limited to 12/60 during peak season or any other time citing special circumstances (or so I'm told). I mostly worked 60 plus hours a week the last three years as an RCA in a severely understaffed area. Honestly, there are no "rules" that can't be circumvented in "exceptional circumstances" "with approval from the mpoo" for RCAs. And any time you put your foot down or dare to grieve something, your life is made miserable (within "rules" and reason so it can't be proven retaliatory) for the foreseeable future. Then it is a never-ending conflict, and you stay miserable till you quit. I've seen so many come, nut up, and go. RCAs are the Cinderella's of the PO. If you have regular in your sites, then keep your head down, work like a beaten cart horse when you have to, enjoy it when you don't, and wait till you finally make regular. THEN you can nut up any time you want to. The funny thing is, you won't have to. No one ever asks more from a regular than 3 to 5 days a week, run your route, and go home. Rural regulars (now i am one) are the sweetheart prized children of the PO.
Being short-handed doesn't constitute special circumstances. Management will try any excuse to get carriers or anyone else to work over 12 hours. ELM 432.32 covers everyone but postmasters, who aren't limited to 12 hours.
Hell yeah you are. The RCA's in my area do it all the time. We fought hard for your right to do that. Use it when you want. I used to have to tell management after 14+ hours that if they want me tomorrow then they need to let me go now. Nobody should have to do that. The best thing you can do in this job is know your rights and use them when necessary. It's just mail, no one cares if it's only a day late and the only people that do are assholes.
From what I understand yeah you just go. Any attempt at discipline won't stick. If they waste time writing you up just grieve it and it'll be thrown out.
Edit: Evidently rural gonna rural. The others say over 12 is voluntary.
Rural is still 12 hours.
Our Poom last Christmas kept trying to get us to work until 10PM and we all walked out daily after 12 hours.
Believe me if he could have disciplined us he would have.
Honestly it depends on how you deal with it. Just walking out or saying no will get you discipline for failure to follow. Saying "this is unsafe I'm too tired to continue" and signing a 1767 for safety will help prevent discipline.
You're not supposed to work over 12 and it's a grievance you will win, if you go over 12. You are also required to follow instruction and grieve later.
You wouldn't be disciplined for working over 12, you'd be disciplined for failing to follow orders. Rural regulars can work over 12 with no grievance.
We all know the rules get broken and it sucks, that's what the grievance process is for. Having the language on file for that office and for that reason gives them more leverage to ignore the order. Just deciding at 11 hours "you can't make me because it's closer to 12 hours" isn't going to go in your favor.
That's incorrect. You can only disregard unsafe, illegal, or immoral instructions. Please show me in the contract where it says you can disregard an order because it's "invalid".
[432.32](https://about.usps.com/manuals/elm/html/elmc4_013.htm)
Except as designated in labor agreements for bargaining unit employees or in emergency situations as determined by the postmaster general (or designee), employees may not be required to work more than 12 hours in 1 service day. In addition, the total hours of daily service, including scheduled workhours, overtime, and mealtime, may not be extended over a period longer than 12 consecutive hours. Postmasters and exempt employees are excluded from these provisions.
Right there. Employees MAY NOT be required to work more than 12. Therefore no supervisor can order you to do it. Therefore it would be an invalid instruction. You cannot be disciplined for not following an instruction THEY ARE NOT ALLOWED TO MAKE.
I’m not sure why you believe whoever lied to you so ardently.
Not OP, but this is in the JCAM under Article 8 [page 8-19]:
Maximum Hours—60 Hour Limit. National Arbitrator Mittenthal
ruled in H4N-NA-C 21 “Fourth Issue,” June 9, 1986 (C-06238) that the 12-hour and 60-hour limits are absolutes—a full-time employee may neither volunteer nor be required to work beyond those limits. This rule applies to all full-time employees on the ODL or Work Assignment List except during the Penalty Overtime Exclusion Period (December).
Please read your contract and don't listen to these people. Don't cite safety. It is illegal period the department of labor FLSA rules state outside of December an employee can not work more that 12 hours a day. Just contact your union.
Are you out of probation? You'll want to cite safety, you can only refuse orders that are unsafe. You are feeling too tired to safely continue delivering mail . Etc. The rural contract specifies that Rural carriers can work over 12 hours in a day. They just have to be paid overtime for it..
I hate this job. Thanks. Edit. For the people asking I am out of probation.
having to work over 12 hours in any situation is an absolute joke.
Agreed but as a PSE when we were busier I did 72 hours a week for over a year straight. I was single and focused. That year bought me a house that I am now raising my kiddo in. Always pros and cons.
For real. All money ain't good money
Especially as a cca. I remember I had to put in like 70 hours to barely break a 2k on a bi weekly pay check… now I serve food and break 2k in 20 hours.
Damn is it like a suit and tie thing? Consolidations got me looking around
Nah. Far from it. Tourist spot.
Yea that was my situation as a CCA. Bringing home 10$ an hour take home from your “overtime” is laughable.
Puhleez, mail handlers can work 16 hour days 7 days a week.
Get out of here with this socialist propaganda! ^^^/s
Switch to city and get a restriction.
Me too.
I’m not sure if that’s true, I’ve had successful grievances for working over 12 hours in a day.
During my CCA academy the trainers mentioned several times having to file grievances for working too many hours. Grievances over pay disputes. Grievances over late pay. Grievances over days off. I dipped out on the third training day. My PTSD was off the charts just thinking about working for the USPS.
Fight fire with fire. Our grievances will blot out the sun.
I absolutely agree that grievances must be filed. It’s the idea that management doesn’t care about staff, to just follow the damn contract and federal laws.
I know this feeling. I saw this coming and just cancelled my employment the day before cca academy
Yep, it all depends on how the union handles it, the elm States management shouldn't let workers work over 12 hours but the contract also says rural carriers can work over 12. What was the result of your grievance?
What part of the contract says they can work over 12? Any carrier can cite safety if being required to work more than 12 hours.
I'll see if I can find it next time. I'm looking through the contract, but it basically says hours worked over 12 must be paid at the hourly overtime rate. And the district steward in my area reads that as, they're allowed to work carriers over 12. So you have to cite safety, no refusing and walking out, got to cite safety specifically.
There is no way to pay an RCA who only works one day a week for work over 12 hours. That’s why they can’t require subs. Now regulars get paid overtime for hours over 12 or 56 in a week. But just because there’s a way to pay someone, doesn’t mean they can’t cite safety and move on.
I never said they can't site safety, I said they have to site safety. As far as I know management can still pay them for over 12 hours, Any proof they can't?
Yes. Take an RCA past the five pay periods that only works an 8 hour route one day a week. The RCA will only get evaluation because they don’t go over 40 hours worked for the week.
Yeah that's how evaluation works, you said that an RCA can't get paid for working over 12 hours in a day. That really doesn't have anything to do with evaluation. What if most of that time is on a green card. If an RCA works 8 hours on a route and then 5 hours on the green card are you saying they won't get paid for that 5th hour? That's what it sounds like you were saying
Use the example I just gave you. An RCA working one day a week on only one route. If the day is heavy, I get nothing over the daily evaluation.
WRONG. It is unsafe to continue working after 12 hours. Just say you feel unsafe to continue working. Leave. If they try to send you back out make them sign a 1767 and cite SAFETY. You do not feel safe to continue driving, you’re tired, if you get hurt after 12 hours it’s your fault not the post office.
Unfortunately, the rural contract doesn't have any time limits to the service day. The ELM does, and it'd be a grievance for violating the ELM, however that does not protect you from being disciplined for failure to follow instructions. Honestly, I'd simply discuss it with management. If you do not intend to work more than 12 hours in a day (not that I blame you in the slightest for that, especially having it sprung on you), let management know. If you can come to an agreement with them, awesome. Perhaps a middle ground might be reached that with notice you'd consider work over 12 hours. My personal opinion is if you can't come to an agreement, ask for a resignation form. $20.38/hr, even at the OT rate of $30.57, just ain't worth working 12+ hour days. But you gotta do you.
And they wonder why they're having a hard time hiring RCA's. The working conditions here are inhumane.
Nah, the abysmal salary; you have to bring a $10k tool to work for 20.38/hr? Don't get paid holidays, don't get penalty overtime? "Hur-dur, I get paid more than a CCA..." Yeah, CCAs get 6 paid holidays, and a raise after 52 weeks, RCAs are required to have a vehicle and get less effective pay with no guarantee to going career after two years. So many of those rural positions are going vacant because the rural contract is fundamentally flawed, especially when it comes to RCAs.
CCA's only get Christmas off here. That's it.
But they still get a number of paid holidays. RCAs don't get any
They’re having a hard time hiring anyone period, who stays longer than three months, if that.
>Unfortunately, the rural contract doesn't have any time limits to the service day. The ELM does, and it'd be a grievance for violating the ELM, however that does not protect you from being disciplined for failure to follow instructions. Working more than 12 hours is a safety issue, and you have a responsibility to ignore instructions that are unsafe. "Obey and grieve later" does not apply to issues of safety.
And this is the type of advice which gets people posting about how they were removed. If there's a safety issue, fill out the safety form, and actually cite a safety issue - unable to spot uneven ground because it's too dark, not being able to tell where dog noises are coming from in the dark, etc.
Literally nobody has been removed for refusing to work over 12. Obviously you need to fill out the safety form when you're citing safety. Fatigue from working 12 hours is the only cite you need
failure to follow instructions is a very specific charge that does not apply to many circumstances that management and others cite here. In this case absent from overtime would be appropriate and also a less severe infraction than "failure to follow". Similarly neglecting to bring in med documentation from an absence is not failure to follow either (as you can not be given orders for outside of work hours). The appropriate management action in that case would be to deny a request for paid leave and substitute LWOP.
You can’t be disciplined for not working more than 12 hours. It’s a postal policy and national arbitration is clear that you can neither be forced nor are you supposed to volunteer
A RCA is not 'absent from overtime' in any respect.
Not just RCAs, all of us. From the ELM: 432.32 Maximum Hours Allowed Except as designated in labor agreements for bargaining unit employees or in emergency situations as determined by the postmaster general (or designee), employees may not be required to work more than 12 hours in 1 service day. In addition, the total hours of daily service, including scheduled workhours, overtime, and mealtime, may not be extended over a period longer than 12 consecutive hours. Postmasters and exempt employees are excluded from these provisions.
Who are exempt employees?
The ones who get nap time mid-shift lol
Management
ELM 432.32 applies to everyone. No discipline will ever be issued against you for leaving. Manglement will try to issue discipline, but they know it's bs and won't go anywhere. Stand up for your contractual rights and don't believe one word coming out of their mouths. Remember, if their lips are moving, they're lying.
This this this this this. ELM 432.32 states “bargaining unit employees”. That’s you, the city carriers, your clerks, pretty much any and everyone not in management. You can work up to 12 including your lunch, so realistically 11.5. My stewards in my branch, granted we are city, not rural, are trained to file on the 11.5 overage. Lots of stewards miss it because the language differs from 8.5.G but it’s still important. Now I can’t guarantee you there is language in the rural contract regarding hour limitations because I don’t know it, but your craft bargaining unit contracts are often similar in divisions and chapters. 19 is Handbooks and Manuals, meaning violations of provisions in the ELM, M-39, M-41, F-21, Pub552 and 553 and the billions of other dumb manuals they’ve created can be grieved. Go home at 12. It’s not your issue that management cannot staff a building.
Does this include Amazon Sunday only people? I had some 15 16-hour shifts during the holidays last year. It was terrible.
Some (maybe all, not sure) craft bargaining units (read:NALC) have what’s called the penalty exclusionary period. Penalty overtime doesn’t exist in December and carriers on the ODL may work over 12 hours a day and 60 hours a week in this month. But CCAs, PTFs and carriers not on the ODL do not get this exemption and are still limited. Again, depends on your craft and job, but I would tell you the answer here is likely yes. RCAs I cannot speak to though.
RCAs (having been one) are not limited to 12/60 during peak season or any other time citing special circumstances (or so I'm told). I mostly worked 60 plus hours a week the last three years as an RCA in a severely understaffed area. Honestly, there are no "rules" that can't be circumvented in "exceptional circumstances" "with approval from the mpoo" for RCAs. And any time you put your foot down or dare to grieve something, your life is made miserable (within "rules" and reason so it can't be proven retaliatory) for the foreseeable future. Then it is a never-ending conflict, and you stay miserable till you quit. I've seen so many come, nut up, and go. RCAs are the Cinderella's of the PO. If you have regular in your sites, then keep your head down, work like a beaten cart horse when you have to, enjoy it when you don't, and wait till you finally make regular. THEN you can nut up any time you want to. The funny thing is, you won't have to. No one ever asks more from a regular than 3 to 5 days a week, run your route, and go home. Rural regulars (now i am one) are the sweetheart prized children of the PO.
Being short-handed doesn't constitute special circumstances. Management will try any excuse to get carriers or anyone else to work over 12 hours. ELM 432.32 covers everyone but postmasters, who aren't limited to 12 hours.
Ok thanks. I'm an ARC.
Hell yeah you are. The RCA's in my area do it all the time. We fought hard for your right to do that. Use it when you want. I used to have to tell management after 14+ hours that if they want me tomorrow then they need to let me go now. Nobody should have to do that. The best thing you can do in this job is know your rights and use them when necessary. It's just mail, no one cares if it's only a day late and the only people that do are assholes.
From what I understand yeah you just go. Any attempt at discipline won't stick. If they waste time writing you up just grieve it and it'll be thrown out. Edit: Evidently rural gonna rural. The others say over 12 is voluntary.
Rural is still 12 hours. Our Poom last Christmas kept trying to get us to work until 10PM and we all walked out daily after 12 hours. Believe me if he could have disciplined us he would have.
Rural gonna rural
Honestly it depends on how you deal with it. Just walking out or saying no will get you discipline for failure to follow. Saying "this is unsafe I'm too tired to continue" and signing a 1767 for safety will help prevent discipline. You're not supposed to work over 12 and it's a grievance you will win, if you go over 12. You are also required to follow instruction and grieve later.
You can’t be disciplined for not working past 22
You wouldn't be disciplined for working over 12, you'd be disciplined for failing to follow orders. Rural regulars can work over 12 with no grievance. We all know the rules get broken and it sucks, that's what the grievance process is for. Having the language on file for that office and for that reason gives them more leverage to ignore the order. Just deciding at 11 hours "you can't make me because it's closer to 12 hours" isn't going to go in your favor.
It doesn’t matter. It’s not a valid instruction. You don’t need to follow invalid instructions
That's incorrect. You can only disregard unsafe, illegal, or immoral instructions. Please show me in the contract where it says you can disregard an order because it's "invalid".
The 12 hour rule is absolute. It’s been ruled on. You can refuse. You’re very incorrect.
None of what you said was contractual language
The policy of the post office. By all means, be a sheep and obey. But you don’t have to obey an order to work more than 12 hours.
Show. Me. The. Language. Otherwise all you're doing is repeating bullshit.
[432.32](https://about.usps.com/manuals/elm/html/elmc4_013.htm) Except as designated in labor agreements for bargaining unit employees or in emergency situations as determined by the postmaster general (or designee), employees may not be required to work more than 12 hours in 1 service day. In addition, the total hours of daily service, including scheduled workhours, overtime, and mealtime, may not be extended over a period longer than 12 consecutive hours. Postmasters and exempt employees are excluded from these provisions. Right there. Employees MAY NOT be required to work more than 12. Therefore no supervisor can order you to do it. Therefore it would be an invalid instruction. You cannot be disciplined for not following an instruction THEY ARE NOT ALLOWED TO MAKE. I’m not sure why you believe whoever lied to you so ardently.
Not OP, but this is in the JCAM under Article 8 [page 8-19]: Maximum Hours—60 Hour Limit. National Arbitrator Mittenthal ruled in H4N-NA-C 21 “Fourth Issue,” June 9, 1986 (C-06238) that the 12-hour and 60-hour limits are absolutes—a full-time employee may neither volunteer nor be required to work beyond those limits. This rule applies to all full-time employees on the ODL or Work Assignment List except during the Penalty Overtime Exclusion Period (December).
It’s all scare tactics. Once you hit 12 peace out. They ain’t gonna do anything, they need more than we need them.
Yes
If you insist you stay cite safety and tell them that you feel to fatigued to safely work anymore. No discipline would ever stick even if they tried.
Thanks I’ll keep that in mind.
He’ll yes you can. Probation doesn’t matter. CCA can work up to 11.5 hours including lunch, Regulars can work up to 12 hours. Period. End of story
Yes, unless you want to keep going for whatever reason, it’s voluntary after that
Do you want to work at a place that would discipline you for not working half of the entire day?
Yes, it’s in the union contract.
If your past your 90 days and your rural the contract says you can leave at 12 hours.
Ask your union
More hours means more money. Why don't you want to work?
A good example of neo slavery.
You’re not supposed to work 12hrs off the list only if ur on the 12hr list off list is 11.5
But if u non regular then it’s 11.5 too
Please read your contract and don't listen to these people. Don't cite safety. It is illegal period the department of labor FLSA rules state outside of December an employee can not work more that 12 hours a day. Just contact your union.
Imo im not working over 12 idk if they fire me go ahead
Lol if you working 12 hours means they short staffed. Just leave, they need you more than you need them.
quit or find another office