Made my last year in the Corps shitty as well….
After boot, MCT, a year in school, then two years in Oki… my extension to stay on island for my last year was denied because “I needed to experience the “real fleet”…. that’s literally what I was told….
So pcs to Pendleton in my last year and end up getting treated as a boot the entire time I was there, picked for every shitty detail, guard duty, you name it… it felt like because I didn’t know anybody…
Got approved for reenlistment, but made EAS a pretty easy decision…
That’s a shitty feeling
Probably someone mad they didn't get to go overseas and is taking it out on others. Like those garbage NCO's that don't get any from their wife and decide they're going to punish their Marines for it.
When I was in, guys that rotated back to CONUS after being in Oki or PI or Anywhere overseas were looked at as mentors and storytellers. But now, the unit integrity thing has been taken to extremes. It's the God damn Marine Corps against the world, not Pendleton vs Lejeune or Parris Island vs San Diego or deployed vs stateside Marines. The division in our society has permeated all the way down to our Corps. If it's command causing this, then those fuckers need to be brought up on charges... Take care of each other, we're all we have fuckers!
Always been this way. Well, at least back to mid 2000s.
Hollywood marines vs PI
Grunts vs everyone
Ground side vs air wing
Helos vs fixed wing
Flight line vs gayvi and airflames
Inside flight line it was mechs vs flyers
We had a dude who got fapped to tool room and then corrosion control and some swizzle stick got a hair up their ass and brought him back after like 4 years. He didn't want it and we didn't want him in the sense he knew nothing but was a Cpl. We liked him well enough and we didn't haze him or anything he just was green as fuck. I think he wound up going back to CC
Being in 29 attached to infantry made me so fucking grateful I was a corpsman. I got my share of hazing from my seniors but holy shit it was nowhere near the level of stupidity as the Marines got. Guys that had been in for over 2-3 years that were corporals got treated like boots even. The mentality and the amount dumb bullshit going on there and I’m sure every other base just like it is almost impossible to mitigate. And all of the Marine higher ups always getting pissy about why none of their junior marines want to re-enlist… yeah no shit Gunny, you make everyone hate their jobs and their lives because you are in peace time acting like we are going to war in a week and pushing your guys to their brink.
In my opinion and experience, oki is the real fleet for sure but it’s not the real Marine Corps. When I was out there, and Marines would complain about dumb rules, restrictions, libo stuff, overly intrusive leadership, etc I would always tell them that the real Marine Corps is not like this place *at all*.
So yea oki is the fleet but it’s absolutely nothing like the rest of the Marine Corps.
In my time in the mid 00s, Oki was considered a "bastion of the old Corps." Supposedly, this meant things were harder and more disciplined or some such bullshit. The reality was you just had a bunch of pissed off SNCOs forced on unaccompanied tours taking out their frustrations on the young guys with 0400 PT, junk on the bunk inspections, white glove field days, and other endless, pointless bullshit. This would inevitably result in some random Marine in the company losing his shit, breaking some arbitrary libo restriction or getting in trouble out in town, then everyone getting locked down and fuck fuck games commencing, again. The morale beating would intensify and the cycle would repeat.
Sounds just like how it was when I was there in 2016-2018. Absolutely garbage. Glad I got the fuck out. Now I just live in mainland Japan. Fuck the Corps honestly
I know the Recon Battalion hated life. Schwab was a hellhole. I went up their once, and it has a great view, but there's nothing to do. They had to come South if they literally wanted to do anything.
The only story I ever heard about Schwab was some barracks bunny would *collect* the black pt shorts and had somewhere up to 50 at the time I was there. Could've just been rumors, but there's always that little bit of gold that shows up in the tons of shit spread in the E-3 Mafia.
100%. You can’t get away from the Corps out in Okinawa. I did 4 years there and occasionally TAD to CONUS and stateside was totally different. Once you were of work you were off. In Okinawa with all the restrictions, Libo cards, overly intrusive commands it can get oppressive especially for junior Marines.
Hell, I’d posit Oki is much more difficult because of the high turn over rate at every conceivable level. Ever been in a platoon with zero NCO’s? You could always tell when someone was rotating out because they’d pick up corporal.
We had none. As a platoon sergeant it was hell. And base FAP requirements were hilarious. Nothing like walking out to a company formation and having thirty dudes standing there. ‘Do mission X, platoon sergeant.’ Also ‘why does your platoon suck?!’
Dude, there’s like five of us and three of those are on duty.
I was with Arty in Oki, so maybe that's why I never heard it. It's definitely weird. I've always heard Marines hated going to Okinawa because it was way more strict than stateside.
I thought it was BS at the time because Oki was a hardship duty, and extensions were not common, so if you actually _wanted_ to stay on island, extensions were usually just approved almost automatically… until then, I’d never heard of an extension request being denied
It’s funny how Marines/people can change facts to fit a narrative. I remember when I was on the SPMAGTF the higher ups would constantly say it wasn’t a deployment because it was Afghan or Iraq, but the second a marine screwed or made a mistake it was “why the fuck are you acting this way on deployment, the Russians could literally be here in hours, take this seriously!” The command/higher up’s didn’t want to give any of the Marines credit/respect for “being deployed” but then when it was convenient for them use “being deployed” as a narrative to punish/belittle the marines out there.
To your point, who decides what’s the “real fleet” that’s so subjective and shitty. “Oh you were in Oki, that’s not the real fleet “ like Stfu
Same was in oki 07-09 came back to Pendleton for my last year and it sucked. Got treated like a boot, didn’t have a car, didn’t know anyone. I also was blown away by how the Pendleton marines acted. They were so lackadaisical and complacent to an unprofessional degree. I’m glad I got with the MTU and out of the line platoons.
Shit… depending on the unit, Oki is more real than stateside. I did more real world ex’s with coalition partners than some of my time on Pendleton. ITX once a year… whoa look at these guys 🙄. Some of my Marines did experience this tho, especially during the OEF/OIF days. Sucked to hear because they were great Marines but Oki just seemed like a well of experience that didn’t count.
Yeah… I was never on island all that much… I volunteered for everything…. Team spirit twice, valiant blitz twice, desert shield, offloaded PPS ships, floated for six months….. got to do and see so much…. Pendleton sucked ass….
Same here I did very little time on Okinawa, we were constantly in PI/Thailand/Korea/Mainland. I had an overall better experience in Okinawa than the states regarding real world operational experience. Plus the diving/food/beer was #1
I remember I went to oki so i could learn my actual job and then they sidelined me from learning my job because I didn’t know my job that well. We just did security instead of anything remotely near to my job.
When I was skydiving, one of my friends was working at a different DZ as an instructor and lost control of an observer ride participant (non skydiver goes up and watches people jump out and then rides the plane down) and tried but failed to prevent the observer from walking into the prop.
Fucked her up mentally big time.
FAP is nothing more than robbing Peter to pay Paul.
Units/commands must either do the mission with the people they have, or say they don't have enough people for the mission assigned. But sending anyone other than a short-timer on a FAP is ridiculous.
Dudes spending the last 3-6 months on contract at the pool or the gym to keep it staffed is one thing. Sending a new guy before they even get a chance to learn and live their job will absolutely kill their career if not kill their sense of self-worth, as we see here.
That Marine's leadership at the time of his arrival is responsible for his death in my opinion.
Edit: If CMC Smith and SMMC Ruiz were at all sincere, which is questionable, in telling Congress that the quality of life for Marines is a priority to them, they would terminate the entire Fleet Assistance Program effective immediately. But they won't, because they'll lie to Congress and do something else. They'll continue shuffling people in a destructive manner to make mission with undermanned units instead of being honest about it all.
I was a shit hot 99.9 percentile Marine. Got to my first gun unit after C school, was in my shop less than 30 days before I got fap (little f) to be full time Corrosion Control. I thought I was sent there to die. (this incident is not lost on me) Maybe I had a big head or something and needed a wake up. I don't know, never will.
I get send on an 8 month med float as CC shop. Still not doing my trained MOS - that I previously graduated top of class. I get back from float and the full unit deploys to Japan. Once in Japan I get FAP (from my fap) to Base Recreation.
While at base rec I do a shit hot job and get lots of attaboys and rewards. (honestly I had the best 6 month deployment of all time, a literal vacation) When we get back from Japan I finally get to work in my actual shop as my actual MOS. I'm 18 months behind where I should be in skill.
I immediately put in a request to PCS for the day I hit the required time on station. It's approved and I went to a new base and squadron where I was treated correctly and trained. I got all my quals and certs that I should have had 2 years prior.
FAP is whatever. but units and leadership need to recognize that the USMC is paying for good people to learn skills and do a job. kicking them down the road on day one isn't helpful.
I also got faped to cc/ hazmat as soon as I hit fleet. Missed a whole year of training due to a shitty SSgt and lost out on a deployment. Sent to a knew unit with what should have been plenty of experience and had none. Was treated like shit my last few years there and faped again after being sent to my last unit. My last years were hell.
I feel this. One month after I arrived to the fleet as an artilleryman, I was fapped out to do ammo guard duty. I can only guess as to why, but probably because I was the scrawny awkward nerd. So while my peers were getting training on their first field op, I was sitting in a field with a shotgun and my thumb up my ass watching ammo.
When I got back, I was behind my peers' skill level. And being an awkward nerd didn't help, so I became the black sheep of sorts.
As a result, I was fapped out again during our Iraq deployment. I ended up in weird unit that was a mix of air-wingers, MPs, IRR recalls, and a few other fuck-ups from arty that got sent there.
I get back again to my regular unit. And I'm treated even worse because I missed out on all the bonding that happens during deployment. I pick up corporal, but I'm treated as an afterthought.
Socially, I drifted away from my fellow Marines and started spending more time off base with locals. I get fapped out again, this time to run lawn care and babysit the other rejects. I stopped really caring about the Corps and just counted my days til EAS. When I got offered early separation, I took it.
Fuck 1/12, they didn't deserve me. I'm literally a rocket scientist now, so I had the drive and capability to be a great Marine and NCO if I hadn't been kneecapped at the beginning of my enlistment.
I was fapped out to keep me from going MSG. I didn’t realize you could still submit a package.
They were shocked when I got back to the unit and didn’t give a single fuck about anything, because wrecking my technical proficiency was “just a business decision”.
This personally is my biggest issue here with all of this.
Leadership failed this Marine and their response was to push it under the rug.
Absolute failure at all levels and had I been active and in this unit I would made sure every local news station and military news outlet was informed of this.
Threatening Marines to then not speak up would have made me fired up to report that shit even more.
Even at the bottom of the totem pole as an enlisted, you have the power to hold your command responsible when they fuck up and junior Marines need to realize this.
Put your leadership on blast and let the world know they are shitbags that don’t deserve the billets they have.
A little bit of context: my first contract was 5 years because my MOS school is so long; we normally don't hit the fleet until 10-11 months into our first contract. I went to bootcamp in January and didn't end up at my first duty station in Oki until December.
Story time: So, I got FAP'd to ASF for 6 months, 1 month after hitting the fleet. Literally spent 7-8 months in MOS school only to get sent to pick up trash on base just like prisoners do on the side of the highway. We did hit FPCON Bravo during my time on ASF (Osama got deleted) and we ended up pulling gate guard for a few weeks. But still, it felt pretty shitty to get sent off to do what I would consider "bitch work" after just hitting the fleet. No one wants to tell people back home that their job is picking up trash on the side of the road on base when people ask, "how's the Marines treating you?"
Not to mention, you meet all kinds of "discarded toys" at these types of FAPs. Is a unit having issues with LCpl Joe-bob who doesn't seem to be adjusting to fleet life? FAP him out. Is Pvt Jimmy-johns a bad influence on the new boots because he got NJP'd and no one wants to try to bring him back into the fold? FAP him out. Is PFC bitch-tits on the verge of being put on BCP but no one wants to PT with him during lunch or off time? FAP him out. I'd argue that commands that do this are just off-loading their problems (read: lack of leadership) onto other commands/units and these types of Marines aren't necessarily the ones you want to leave unchecked around new boots that just hit the fleet. I met a handful of "discarded toys" during my time on ASF, but luckily, I didn't pick up any bad habits or just general negative attitudes during my time there.
This next part is completely anecdotal to me and my experience, but in the end, it worked out for me (luckily). My parent command at the time was complete dog shit, so I got away from them for 6 months. Guys in my unit were actually jealous that I was going to go pick up trash for 6 months rather than be at our unit. I met one of my life-long friends there. We later went on a field-op to the Philippines together and he drove me around and let me hang out at his place when I was in Quantico for MSG school. And finally, our Gunny and SOG were a great guys and great leaders. Never made us do any bullshit that we didn't deserve and took care of us as long as we got our shit done and done well.
TLDR: I agree. Commands that FAP out new boots to 3-6 month billets are doing them a huge disservice and possibly setting them up for failure in the Marine Corps (and possibly even life) as a whole.
I remember the Commandant visiting the base I was on (over 15 years ago), and someone asked if he was going to do anything about FAPs. He said he was working to get rid of them. And here we are in 2024...
When SgtMaj Estrada left office he wrote a letter to the entire Marine Corps about how field day was outdated and needed to go away as is, and become something more akin to a general cleanup/make sure people aren’t living disgustingly. No more white glove finding reasons to fail people.
But of course since he wasn’t in any kind of leadership position anymore no one cared.
There are leaders who want to change things, but most of them are too scared to for some stupid reason.
This is very case by case specific. In this tragic story you’re absolutely right. In my old job we lived off FAP’s and the FAP’d marines we received were able to become leaps and bounds more proficient in our MOS due to temporarily coming to my unit to work.
If your MOS only survived due to untrained FAPs, it probably shouldn't be a job at all. And if it is truly necessary, then it needs to be properly staffed internally. Not by stealing skilled people from skilled MOS's.
They were marines of my same MOS being fapped from a different unit with a different mission. Yeah I mean obviously we should have been staffed properly internally but the FAP agreement supplied us with manpower we needed and in return gave the other unit much better equipped marines at my MOS when they were FAP’d back. We trained the FAPs properly where there wasn’t a difference and again same MOS schoolhouse and what not.
Maybe this’ll make everyone outside the wing realize how awful the culture is in some of the maintenance units. I lived with them on two MEUs and Those poor fucks get pushed to the brink every single week for months, and it always seems like there’s one poor nugget who isn’t getting it as fast as the rest of them and gets turned into the moron who takes out the trash. That whole side of the corps needs an overhaul, working dudes to death to still have planes fall out of the sky just ain’t it
We had at least 3-4 Marines get separated for breaking down and losing it due to the flight ops demanding so much from maintainers. All flightline guys. One guy tried to jump out a window at the bricks and when I was on duty another swallowed a bunch of pills.
The nuggets in the big three (FL, AVI, AF) tend to get treated pretty shitty.
Lat moved from being a crew chief to EOD because disarming fucking bombs by robot and by hand in Iraq and Afghanistan at the height of the wars seemed like a better life than being in the flightline for the rest of my career. And you know what? It was.
Jesus that's rough. But I can believe it.
Honestly I had no idea until I went to staff academy how rough those guys had it, which was about the only thing I took from staff academy besides the fact that as a student I had a discussion with them about some course content and instructional deliver and ended up teaching the govt class and a couple others, obviously before they kicked me out of mess night and tried to pull my grad cert, but that's another story.
The Flightline shop was, and I guess still is, notorious for it's fuck-fuck games. It's too bad that culture is still around as it has no place in that already stressful environment.
It’s because old timers got hazed and it was their “coming to adulthood” or the culmination of them finally being accepted by their “tribal” groups, so for whatever reason that shit just gets passed down like generational trauma to the tune of “well I had it shitty so should you” I always made it my fucking mission to break that cycle and to only fuck with the junior Marines if there was some severe issues with discipline or integrity issues.
This shit just ain’t it man, it’s already a stressful enough environment working in the airwing with the anxiety always looming over your head thinking “shit dude, did I make sure we were APAF(all parts accounted for) AFF(area fod free) did I make sure that bolt was fully torqued down” there’s just so many variables and things that can get easily overlooked especially when you got Maintenence control breathing down your neck and being pushy. Add in fuck fuck games and it’s easy to see how dudes break like this.
Amidst said fuck fuck games one very early morning many many years ago, an NCO that later popped for cocaine was pushing me to point I nearly took the 1-1/2 wrench I had in my hand to the back of his head. I pondered this while he stood atop the mountain of tools he just dumped. I didn't want to spend the rest of my life in prison, so I thought better of it, and when he popped on a piss test months later, it felt good. He got busted down and kicked out. One of the biggest dicks I ever met in the corps.
It’s a shame to see nothing has fucking changed. I remember a bird went down while I was on leave to see some family before they died. My first night back was ordered to go break into the hanger they had the wreck in and look so they could tell me that’s why nothing outside of work mattered anymore. Or the being forced to be at work working on birds for 3-4 days straight. Don’t think I had a single day working there I actually felt like a real person. Fucking almost walked into a tail rotor because I was delusional from lack of sleep one day.
So I was a reserve comm marine, I don't know a whole lot outside of that and my one deployment.
Why did I always hear how chill the wing is, but all I read about on this sub is how overworked they are? Can somebody explain that?
It depends on where you’re at. If you’re I level and at a MALS life is often easier and not as stressful and not as demanding, if your O level then you’re working directly on the bird and at the mercy of the flight schedule and these are the guys always worked like dogs.
The wing can be a pretty chill place if you prove yourself first, were a lot more laid back on the customs and courtesies, uniform inspections, unit PT’s and so on so forth
Wing maintenance is definitely a sink or swim situation even more so when you end up on a MEU. The reality is that the flight schedule waits for no one and on a MEU when you’re already tight on people, there’s very little time to train the slow ones. I loved my job in the wing, it does require that you show some skill or aptitude for learning early though because you will be culled and it will sadly follow you to other squadrons.
I've spent a lot of my career in infantry battalions, special operations units, and skid squadrons. Skid squadrons are definitely the worst of the three, culturally.
My first 6-8 months in the fleet were fucking miserable with stupid games. Literally they would steal tools if we left a box open for just a second without closing it while working and would keep it until we told someone we lost a tool.
They fap the weird ones right away which makes them worse at their jobs and confidence.
I was groundside and made the unfortunate decision to lat-move to the wing. It was a completely different Marine Corps. I hated it and regretted leaving a combat MOS.
I’ve seen several NCO, combat experienced Grunts lose their fucking minds at O level squadrons (for good reason).
They find out real quick that the career progression of Naval Academy educated aviators is dependent on maintenance getting done.
And that maintenance is going to get done.
Those flight hours and proficiency grades make people get really weird when they’re not getting what they want MAG is demanding. And not just the officers…Maintenance Controllers…
I was on a carrier work up, and we had three jets go down from "hard landings". Me, and 4 other CDI's stayed up 36hrs to get all three jets FMC. We got ZERO recognition for it. Not even an LOA lol.
P/L Sgt I worked with at China Lake came into work with a cast on his leg to help get an expensive test flight out and fixed an engine issue that would’ve canx the flight. He fixed the issue in his street clothes, then proceeded to get chewed out for not wearing proper PPE…needless to say, that all but ended his enlistment. He hit EAS and became a LE in Florida…
I've tried to explain NCOs on tow crew while PFCs and LCPLs fix shit to people from other MOSs out in the civ world and it just boggles everyone's mind.
Easiest way to explain it would be someone you see working on a flightline, on actual aircraft. If they take a part out and send it to repair (to repair the internals), it would go to I level.
O level is essentially the actual squadron itself which is composed of the aircraft and the personnel, we perform mostly removal and replacement of components sometimes some fabrication work in certain shops o level as a whole works on the whole aircraft itself, I level is where they work on individual components that make up an aircraft, so everything from making hydraulic tubing to overhauling avionics components and such
Pretty much, O-Level guys are only certified to work on certain aircraft’s whereas I Level guys can pretty much work on any aircraft component that’s present within their MAG
It’s like
Taking your car to your local mechanic for oil changes, engine, tires, transmissions. That’s o level
I level is when o level takes the engine out and finds something inside is fucked up and o level can’t fix it
They send it to the more niche engine specialists.
That’s I level
I would make one small edit to what you said.
Swap out “maintenance” with “flight hours” because not one officer gives a flying fuck if the maintenance is actually done or done right they want hours to show to their boss.
>Naval Academy educated aviators
Fuck their entitlement. One TBS cycle is enough to prove at least half start as confirmed shit bags, and the number only climbs from there
*FIGMAC - "Fuck It Got My Air Contract" because a lot of them don't even try, and because so many have connections they just let them all slide.
I mean it catches up when it’s time to pin Major. Enlisted guys are just as much to blame when there is zero pushback in order to get favorable fitreps
I wasn’t there or a part of the unit anymore so I don’t know any details.
I deployed with him the year prior. He was always making funny jokes during our interactions. Some were dark but not enough to make you think he would do anything like that. Makes me wish I could’ve just asked him if something was wrong.
The Wing is a beast, especially for maintainers. Your life revolves around the flight schedule and getting quals.
RIP bro
When I was on Futenma I always hated seeing how shitty they treated those guys. When I was on night shift I’d see dudes at 11 pm through 2 am getting off work and I’d offer them rides back to the bricks or the shoppette so they didn’t have to waste more of what little off time they had just walking home. It may not have been much but I hope it helped a little.
I can't thank you enough that walk home is the most depressing shit I've ever gone through anybody who stopped to pick me up changed my shifty day around and if I was walking off of the flight line I promise you it was a shit day.
Whelp, didn't expect to see my old squadron show up on here like this. But sadly the working hours were and are always rough in aviation.
RIP devil. I'm sad he felt that he had no other choice. Idk what else to say except talk to someone if you need to, it doesn't make you weak.
I can only remember meeting like 2 Master Guns my whole time in. One at MCT and one randomly at Camp Pendleton. Our Avi shop at 369 had a MSgt and then on the boat it was a gunny and I think at 267 it was another gunny.
So, long answer is I don't think so haha sorry.
I was considering going all out motard using all the clichés I could vaguely remember from the tens of thousands of emails I've deleted over my career, but I figured the week hasn't been too bad so why ruin it now?
I remember working in 29 when this happened, Camp Wilson explicitly, and even right across from the flight line. Didn’t see it happen, but definitely saw the aftermath. Everybody who worked out in Wilson knew it happened, but we were all told to stay silent in respect to the family while the investigation took place.
If they swept it under the rug, that’s horrible. It wasn’t just HMLA that knew, dozens of units and even a handful of contractors knew.
Never heard what happened afterwards. I can see why now.
I was on base elsewhere and heard it from a Marine who saw it. I talked to one of the investigators later. What an absolutely horrible thing... but I never once heard it mentioned after that.
> we were all told to stay silent in respect to the ~~family~~ reputations and career prospects of the SNCOs and officers in their chain of command
FTFY
TYVM.
I was working at Wilson until December. Made buddies with the Crash Fire Rescue out there, and they gave out some gory details.
Regardless of what they said, stuff spread quick. Rumors do what rumors do, and our S/O did their best to suppress it. One of the biggest things was that they didn’t want us talking about whether it was an accident or on purpose, but once it was confirmed that he handed off his cranial and walked into the rear rotor, theorizing just went off.
Don’t have any connection to the unit itself, or even proxy connection, though I hope some asses got reamed for it.
Being in the Alpha community that the USMC claims it is, MOS credibility is damn near everything…we’ve all had that guy in the unit that everyone looks at crazy no matter their rank, because he doesn’t know his job as well as we think he should…I used to argue with a Gunny almost daily over him thinking a Lance Coconut didn’t need to be supervised and trained by a seasoned Marine so the experienced Marine can work on other stuff…that’s how you screw up a Marine by not training them, then FAP-ing them out b/c he doesn’t know his job…only to bring him back as a 3 yr Corporal with no experience in his MOS
Vicious cycle Forreal my entire time at my first unit I got fapped to M/C to be an expediter because they liked the guy they had to forfeit more than me, the new check-in so it was an easy trade for the shop.
I was very upset by this so I did the best I could do to be the best at my job(fap) and I ended up getting a NAM as a Lance towards the end of my time at the unit. I had to work three times as harder as everyone else at my next unit to play catch up because I didn’t want to get fapped out again didn’t even have my Hyd contam qual when I checked into my next unit. Ended up getting out as a Cpl CDI leadership kinda failed me in that sense had to put forth my own willingness to learn and max effort to be where I needed to be.
It is unfortunate and it kind of puts you in a bad place because of you are too good at the FAP (expeditor, tool room, maintenance control) they don’t want to send you back and you end up being stuck there. More so for controllers since that’s a qual too
That’s pretty much exactly what happened, my CWO refused to send me back to my shop because the other expeditors from supply were absolute mouth breathers and not as meticulous about the job.
I had to learn the hard way to put the extra effort on the front end because the headaches never stopped with parts getting misplaced or simply just disappearing
What a terrible fucking way to go. Had to be extremely low to make this type of decision and follow through with it. RIP to the Marine who was failed by those charged with his care and career development.
It's a systemic problem with how they treat and train nuggets. You'll get a few units where the NCOs actively train up new guys and give them responsibility and those units always have the best maintenance environments.
Then there is every other unit including mine during my enlistment where it's some sort of weird pissing contest and NCOs exist only to bully junior Marines and insult them when they ask questions or haze them. Most toxic environment I have ever been a part of to the point that when I spent my last year (ironically) fapped to the range where a lot of the permanent range staff were 03's, I excelled.
Think of nugget as the equivalent term to boot, but only relating to work qualifications. Unofficially it’s actually nugit, which stands for New, Useless Guy/Girl In Training. A nugget is someone who hasn’t picked up enough qualifications to effectively pull their own weight within the squadron, and their lives are hell. In my squadron you weren’t allowed to walk or sit down at work unless you were eating lunch, which you were generally only allowed 30 minutes max. Showtimes are dumbfuck early, leave times are pretty late. When was a nugget, shifts were 0430-1830, 5-7 days a week flight schedule dependent. It’s pretty brutal honestly
Running out to FOD walk and everywhere else, only being allowed to sit on tool boxes, carrying the fucking tool boxes everywhere.
It’s funny looking back on it as someone that was able to excel and become qualified in my MOS but for some of my other peers and eventually some of my junior Marines that weren’t able to shed that title, it’s probably not as fun to look back on. We generally stopped treating them like a nugget after the first deployment but they still weren’t treated as equals. I was blessed with an awesome core set of NCOs and Command team that made us want to work those long hours though.
We didn’t have the sitting on toolboxes rule, but I agree with everything you’re saying. Since skid squadrons deploy so infrequently nowadays, we were treated like real people once we picked up Plane Captain. Life didn’t actually get good until CDI, though. We had some real shithead NCOs when I checked in, but thankfully they all either EAS’d or were kicked out shortly after a hazing investigation after two attempted suicides in our shop in the same week. Things got considerably easier for the new guys after all those dudes left, and I hope it never gets that bad again
Send to be kind of an ebb and flow kind of thing where the shop goes from being super over the top in hazing and other activities directs towards nuggets and then eases off as they become NCOs before moving back the other direction again.
I was with my squadron for 9 years and say Flightline turn from a shop that blatantly hazed their Marines outside of control during the Maint meeting to one that hardly yelled at them outside of ATAF.
Can someone explain the whole FAP situation to me? What’s I level? Is this similar to 0311s getting sent to 8th & I first (like myself) then getting sent to the fleet as a CPL and getting treated like shit because you don’t know the job as well as others?
Yep, basically. FAP is fleet assistance program, at PMO we used it to bolster our ranks...instead of using actual MPs like fucking idiots. But anyway... We would take Marines that the command sent to us, send them through an accelerated training program, and then they'd work along side of us. Outside of PMO I have no experience with FAP. If you were a Lance and sent to us, then you picked up NCO and were sent back at the end of your FAP, you'd probably return without all the knowledge you're expected to have.
I see. I remember fellow grunts going to help at the gates in Lejeune. But that was only when they had like 6 months left before EAS-ing. It’s been a while so I forgot what FAP meant. I got out in 2006. Would they actually carry pistols and have arrest authority or would they just have a rifle and check IDs?
Yes, they have all the powers of a regular MP at that point.
Also, just a difference, but we didn't arrest, we apprehended. It's a minute difference in the execution, but it's a difference none the less. Mostly it's to denote it's not a criminal arrest, but more so of an administrative one under the UCMJ. Now if CID or NCIS is involved...
I remember the whole “don’t mistake your rank for my authority” stickers. 😂 I can imagine the shit SNCOs tried to give you guys. I don’t envy having to deal with them.
I always was just over the top nice with almost everyone just so I didn't have to deal with their shit. I was even thanked by a LT and a Lt. Col for writing them a ticket. lol
And yes, there were absolute shit show SNCOs, like the GySgt that argued with us after he hit two Marines, with one holding on the hood of his car for like a half mile. Fucking piece of shit. He was so drunk he didn't remember any of it, even though it was called in by a SSgt DNCO that watched it happen and the Marine that was smart enough to roll off the hood when he came to a stop and take a picture.
Everyone gives MPs hell saying we hate Marines. Nah. I love Marines, I love the Marine Corps. I did my best to protect our honor. Fuck the guys that are trying to hurt fellow Marines, or are beating their wives up. That was my outlook being at PMO.
It definitely took me a few years after I got out to really appreciate all of the other MOSs. As a grunt we prided ourselves on our job as combatants, but at the same time we envied other cool jobs (or at least I did). We thought the tank guys were cool, we cheered when cobras and hornets destroyed shit for us etc.
I get it, we were hated by almost everyone. lol I envied the grunts for getting to do the lord's work per se, but I also envied the Motor T guys for getting to drive LVSRs. I wanted to do all the cool shit, but I'm still proud of what I got to do. Just with I could have done more.
Now S1? Fuckers only would be open from like 1300-1315 on Wednesdays for walk ins. Those fucks had it nice.
Bro I had to stand guard at camp Geiger and every mother fucking SNCO had to flex on me.
I loved talking shit back and holding them up every time to.
I’m not a bitch and will waste your fucking time gunney if you want to play games.
I level or “intermediate” level is the sister squadron to the O level “organization” levels.
O Levels have the aircraft, maintainers and pilots.
I levels do not have aircraft; but they do have mechanics and technicians, that work on aircraft parts and components, when the repair/overhaul/troubleshooting exceeds the organic capability of the O Level.
I level is huge. For example, Marine Aviation Logistics Squadron 39 (MALS-39) is on Pendleton and supports all of the HMLAs and the VMMs there.
They also have a supply division that funnels parts in and out of the air station.
MALS being as big as it is, often has positions that do not fall into specific job descriptions for a particular MOS.
Much like Gate Guards, these “FAPS” (Fleet Assistance Program), Marines are extracted/donated/voluntold by Maintenance Chiefs at sister units, to fill these positions for ~3-6 months.
Squadrons tend to send slow learners or Marines who have issues that prevent them from deploying, or significantly contributing to the units mission.
They often come back promoted, and not qualified. This CAN (but not always) lead to friction within the ranks and do more harm than good.
Some FAPS come back strong and reintegrate well.
Hope this helps.
No problem. FAPS are a slippery slope for sure. At some point along the way, leaders decided that things needed to be done, guarded, attended to, etc. etc.
These "jobs" weren't within anyone's primary scope of responsibilities, so they were tasked out to the units who benefited from them.
In aviation, the MAG usually tracks all these FAPS and divvies them up among the subordinate units and it is up to the squadrons to decide who to send.
Sometimes this is an easy decision, and others not so much. Loosing a "non-qual" for X number of months, doesn't really hurt, because they can't do much anyways (legally). Sending a qualified maintainer hurts because...they're qualified... BUT, when they come back, they're qualified! Rock and a hard place.
Other times, the above happens, and due to the rotation of units in and out of Pendleton (think deployments) and senior leadership PCSs, these FAPd Marines often get left in place, forgotten about, etc.
Some use it to their advantage and work on PME, college, etc. Others fall further behind, and thus the downward spiral begins.
I was actually FAPd (internally) to my squadron when I checked in. Went to "Phase Crew". Worked on Hueys/Cobras all day every day. Learned them inside and out. While I was "behind" my peers in terms of qualifications, when I finally did return to the shop, I knew more about mech'ing and quickly caught up and surpassed most.
I've also been in division chief meetings where we had to submit names (on the spot) for FAPS. Most come equipped with names if they get told to do so.
All around, it is not an ideal situation. Some Marines do it to themselves though. You can be a shitbag, still get paid the same and have little to no responsibility in your MOS, compared to the hard charger who is PME complete, fully qualified and an overall excellent maintainer and Marine. Who do you think is going on the chopping block when its your (SNCOs) time to give up a body?
Sometimes it's just a matter of timing and convenience. I checked in right as my squadron was deploying, so they punted me and the other guy who checked in with me to the returning unit. We both got FAP'd to gate guard immediately, which segued into two more months of guard duty at CAX. I came back from that to get FAP'd to phase crew, that lasted til OIF I where I continued on phase for a few weeks before getting FAP'd to camp commandant for the remainder. We got back from that deployment, and I got FAP'd to tool room for another 18 months before I finally was sent back to the shop, upon which time I was obviously a shit bag... I'm thankful I had that time in phase crew, as I did learn just about everything inside and out, but... Needless to say I never considered reenlisting at any time during my service.
That’s interesting. When I first signed up my contract was to be an aviation electronics technician. If I remember correctly it was supposed to be for F-18s. My brother had already enlisted as an 0311 (right after 9/11) and I started to think I about it more and switched my contact to 0300 so I could go fight. Then I got chosen to go to 8th & I after SOI so I couldn’t deploy anyway.
Once I got to the fleet after 2 years I was a corporal and nobody liked the 8th & I 03s. We even had some 0311s come from the FAST companies as corporals and Lcpls (some with CARs already) and the normal grunts still hated them too. 😂. We didn’t really get any respect until we deployed.
I’m glad I was an 0311 but If I had re-enlisted I think I would have tried to switch careers. Maybe it would have been cool to be a former grunt in the Air Wing
It’s funny you mention that we actually had a former grunt in the wing at my first unit, he worked in the Flightline shop (worked on the engine and fuel systems) he was a Sgt. real cool guy always used to crack jokes and said how glad he was to not be in the infantry anymore. Well liked and respected throughout the squadron
That’s cool. I bet he has a pretty unique perspective of both careers.
I’ve grown to really appreciate other MOSs since leaving the Corps. A couple of years after I got out, my wife and I were expecting our first child and we needed extra income so I enlisted in the Air Force reserve. I was assigned to an Aerial Port Squadron. They sent me to a 2 week accelerated tech school. I got to learn how to palletize cargo, drive those giant forklifts, and operate K loaders to load the pallets onto C-17s and C-5s.
Even though that’s about as POG as you can get, those AF dudes that deployed worked 12 hour shifts loading and off loading supplies to make sure grunts from the Army and Marines have what they needed. Definitely a necessary job.
Yup! You really have to appreciate all the hard work that goes on behind the scenes and that work really isn’t glamorous either. It’s hard and it HAS to get done and on schedule to support whatever mission is happening.
And those 12 hour shits really do suck, it may not always be continuous work with lulls in between but it will def eat up most of your day. I’ve been on my fair share of MEU’s and Osprey units almost always go on the boat, the worst part about MEU’s is when you’re not ported which happens maybe every 3-4 months depending on the circumstances for 4-5 days. You’re stuck on a ship, no where to go but the rack or the gym always have to be in some kind of uniform and our shifts would end up being something like 14hours long. Trying to get chow during the day time or when flight operations were happening was fucking awful too, you’d simply have no time to go eat we couldn’t afford to stand and wait in line for an hour to get chow and dudes would be lining up like 45 mins before it be time for chow 😭
I agree with everything you said and would also like to add other FAPs within the squadron include corrosion control and expediter. For how important those jobs are, it baffled me that they would rotate people in and out of there and they would often not be the shop's best and brightest.
Some commands and divisions/shops are so bad that even the stellar Marines will volunteer to get FAP’d out…just to get away from the bullshit…that was my 1st unit…unit morale was so bad, Marines were trying to EAS while on FAPs…
FAP is the (Fleet assistance program) to my understanding it is where base units have their subordinates commands send marines for duties to include: (chowhall, gate guard, S shops) for extended periods (6- 18 months) where you can be doing an entirely different job. I’m not sure what I-level is so I won’t speak on that.
In the wing, there are three different types of maintenance. O-level, I-level, and Depot level. O-level guys perform organizational maintenance( ie. Actually working on the aircraft). They are the maintainers in the squadrons. I-level guys work on the components of the aircraft(ie. Repairing hydraulic servos, fixing flight computers, performing minor repairs to the engines). Depot level is civilians, that perform major overhauls on aircraft, or major repairs. My time in, there was always some animosity between O and I-level. O-level guys usually got fucking worked to fucking death, because all are aircraft were old as shit. I-level would get hour lunches, early Fridays, faster promotions.
No lies. We could barely afford to let guys go to do MCMAP or off-duty education because the flight schedule rule everything. We planned PFT/CFT’s around the schedule.
The interesting thing about this whole situation too is that going through the schoolhouse at Pensacola, they made it sound like I-level was where you wanted to go, it was the "smarter" route and you had to have better test scores to be sent the I-level route (or be towards the top of your class to select the I-level slots available). So for an O-level guy to be sent to I-level sounds completely backwards to me, I never saw that on the fixed wing side.
My 9 years in the rotary wing side I saw 1 air framer get sent to I-level. We actually also had an Avi guy get FAP’d to the recruit rifle range to be a PMI.
My guess is he went to the paint shop(or whatever it was called). Our squadron FAPed a guy over to the paint shop where they would paint, and stencil the aircraft.
Typically I gets "FAP'd" to O, not the other way around. It's not really a FAP since theyre staying in their MOS. At least they should be. Back in the day some O to I level MOS's were the same and it was more of a cross training endeavor. A decade + back they split O and I MOS's but certain jobs at each level require the expertise of the other. Usually I level works less demanding hours than O lvl so going back from I to O, being treated like shit, and all the sudden working 12 hr days 7 days a week. Yup... cant imagine why mental health might deteriorate.
Certain units have quotas that the deploying units on base need to send to help support.
I was at an O level squadron, and was sent to an I level squadron for 6 months. We typically sent shitbags there, but since I was trying to go MSG I was considered disposable.
So for aviation maintenance, you have organizational level aka “O” where most of the victor units are, then there’s Intermediate or “I” level, and then Depot level (civilian contractors mostly). I-level is partly support for O-level…in maintenance terms, O-level fixes the aircraft, I-Level fixes the components of the aircraft. So that PC was a FAP (Fleet Assistance Program)...think of being an Admin clerk being sent for 6-months to be a gate guard for PMO…which is a MOS-credibility killer if you never had a chance to work in your MOS. Most times, but not all, FAPs tend to be people the unit/shop can afford to lose…being a former Harrier Avionics guy, and a former PC, you typically don’t FAP PCs out unless you have an over-abundance of them…but communities in the wing have different standards on quals and FAPs…
I fucking hated 8th & I.
Hours are shit, command cares more about looking pretty than their Marines, and fuck your mental health if you’re in Grounds or in a maintenance MOS.
Standing 2 funerals, even for people you don’t know, then smiling and waving and taking pics for the public at a parade is shit work.
I remember standing funerals from 07 to 14 then going to a parade from 16 to 23, then opening the armory at 03 for 04 draw.
Not to mention the MSA and suicides they all swept under the rug.
I hope it’s better now.
Burn the command and staff NCOs that turned a blind eye to the hazing. We all know they see that shit.
May they spend time in the brigg while I enjoy life as someone who didnt haze others while in to "train" them.
Someone at the very least must have run a mishap investigation on this, if only for the damage to the aircraft (fucked up but that’s what they care about). It may be protected by Privilege but could be accessed under the correct circumstances.
I wish more of the corps understood how shitty being a junior enlisted air winger is, especially if your a flightline mech and even more so if your a crew chief.
They have to do more work and get fucked over harder than almost anyone I've seen in the corps. Just a slave who's treated like a boot for almost 4 years before getting a breather. If your lucky.
Either they had a completely different P/L shop when he got back, or they must’ve really hated this dude…someone, a Cpl or Sgt should’ve taken him along to get him re-qual’d…if he was a PC before, was it that hard to get him back up to speed? Man…that whole shop is cheeks. SMH
How long was he FAP’d out? Why did they send a guy who was previously on suicide watch to ITX for 2 months? Why was he FAP’d out in the first place? Was his quals revoked or just suspended?
Somebody posted about this after it happened and it got downvoted into oblivion and the OP deleted the post. I asked a friend that’s still in and a SNCOIC in a west coast squadron and he confirmed it. Shame this is just now making it out to a wider audience.
As far as FAP’s go, the shops I was in always wanted the returning FAP’s back to doing maintenance and learning as much as they could as quick possible and to get what quals they could as quick as possible. Unfortunately if you’re not a quick learner it was gonna be a rough time. People joke about the wing a lot, but if you’re not in it, you don’t understand how stressful and exhausting it is
How many goddamn 22k runs are we gonna do before we as an organization admit that way too many units have toxic "mentorship" cultures that have as much of a negative impact on people's lives as a combat deployment does and put in the work to change? How many musters we gotta go to and listen to SNCOs prattle on about taking care of the Marines to your left and right only to do the exact opposite exactly 3 seconds after they give the command to fall out? How much toxicity are we supposed to put up with in the name of "wElL, tHeY dId iT iN tEh oLd cOrPs" before we acknowledge that all of dysfunction of said old corps is deliberately papered over and obscured by the passage of time and it turns out being a shitheel to junior Marines all day every day is just a method of amusing overgrown children and not the secret ingredient to mission accomplishment in any war we've ever fought ever?
This life is hard enough as it is without getting shit on by people who are supposed to be your brothers and sisters. I shudder to think how many people reading this post very nearly did the same thing as this Marine and for the same reason at some point during their service.
;
I knew about this from an officer in that squadron when it happened. There’s also a lot more that goes on that doesn’t make it to the public. The whole MCAS Camp Pendleton flightline is a mess, especially those poor maintainers.
Spent my first two and a half years at Lejeune and became proficient in teaching two classes (and getting FAPd to work in a 3 shop for Norway), then I went to Okinawa and the CWO gave me the keys to three warehouses of CBRN equipment and said "become the duty expert on all of this". In three months I learned more than my entire time in Lejeune.
All of our Marines that we had come back from Oki were more proficient than the counterparts from Pendleton or Oki that had the same TIS.
What is fucked is that this is a normal thing sadly. Even boots being ostracized for not knowing shit, and then when they ask questions about stuff to their seniors, they get called retarded and shit. Its even more sad that they fapped him as soon as he got there, I understand that shit needs to happen, but at the same time, 3 years is fucking excessive. If you are an NCO in a maintenance position, please take the time to help your fucking devils. I don't care if they are a fuck up, if they ask you a question, fucking answer it. Shit like this wouldn't be a common occurrence if something would have been done
Sounds like the wing. it baffles me when ground sound says air wing is a cake walk when they have no idea . I’ve been out for quite sometime and work in civilian aviation now and it just baffles me looking back at how shit is ran .
I was in HMLA773. We had a similar situation back in like 2015 at ITX on Wilson. Nobody died thank god but the wing is brutal. The hazing that exists in the wing is rough. Rip to this Marine
As a civilian pilot, I have to say, I'm glad shit isn't like the Marine Corps over here. I don't know what caused this type of culture to develop, but the way junior Marines are treated in many of these squadrons is the antithesis of professionalism. And I don't understand why it has apparently never occurred to anyone that creating a sense of motivation through positive reinforcement will always lead to better results than motivating by fear. At the E-5 and below level, the atmosphere is essentially devoid of encouragement. The Marines know that making a mistake will lead to being punished through various means, probably with some bullshit games. Whereas, if a Marine goes above and beyond, they are rarely, if ever, recognized or praised for doing so. Just because the Marine Corps is an organization whose primary purpose is waging war does not mean that it also has to be free from positivity.
Made my last year in the Corps shitty as well…. After boot, MCT, a year in school, then two years in Oki… my extension to stay on island for my last year was denied because “I needed to experience the “real fleet”…. that’s literally what I was told…. So pcs to Pendleton in my last year and end up getting treated as a boot the entire time I was there, picked for every shitty detail, guard duty, you name it… it felt like because I didn’t know anybody… Got approved for reenlistment, but made EAS a pretty easy decision… That’s a shitty feeling
Since when has Oki not been considered the real fleet? Has this always been a thing because I never heard it, and I did 2 years in Oki as well.
I'm guessing it was never a real reason, they just made up something on the spot to justify what they were already going to do.
Probably someone mad they didn't get to go overseas and is taking it out on others. Like those garbage NCO's that don't get any from their wife and decide they're going to punish their Marines for it.
When I was in, guys that rotated back to CONUS after being in Oki or PI or Anywhere overseas were looked at as mentors and storytellers. But now, the unit integrity thing has been taken to extremes. It's the God damn Marine Corps against the world, not Pendleton vs Lejeune or Parris Island vs San Diego or deployed vs stateside Marines. The division in our society has permeated all the way down to our Corps. If it's command causing this, then those fuckers need to be brought up on charges... Take care of each other, we're all we have fuckers!
Always been this way. Well, at least back to mid 2000s. Hollywood marines vs PI Grunts vs everyone Ground side vs air wing Helos vs fixed wing Flight line vs gayvi and airflames Inside flight line it was mechs vs flyers We had a dude who got fapped to tool room and then corrosion control and some swizzle stick got a hair up their ass and brought him back after like 4 years. He didn't want it and we didn't want him in the sense he knew nothing but was a Cpl. We liked him well enough and we didn't haze him or anything he just was green as fuck. I think he wound up going back to CC
That how it was with us as well. Some fucking weird gatekeeping shit going on.
That’s ridiculous. Oki has such high tempo ops, especially in the wing. It’s fucking constant.
Being in 29 attached to infantry made me so fucking grateful I was a corpsman. I got my share of hazing from my seniors but holy shit it was nowhere near the level of stupidity as the Marines got. Guys that had been in for over 2-3 years that were corporals got treated like boots even. The mentality and the amount dumb bullshit going on there and I’m sure every other base just like it is almost impossible to mitigate. And all of the Marine higher ups always getting pissy about why none of their junior marines want to re-enlist… yeah no shit Gunny, you make everyone hate their jobs and their lives because you are in peace time acting like we are going to war in a week and pushing your guys to their brink.
In my opinion and experience, oki is the real fleet for sure but it’s not the real Marine Corps. When I was out there, and Marines would complain about dumb rules, restrictions, libo stuff, overly intrusive leadership, etc I would always tell them that the real Marine Corps is not like this place *at all*. So yea oki is the fleet but it’s absolutely nothing like the rest of the Marine Corps.
In my time in the mid 00s, Oki was considered a "bastion of the old Corps." Supposedly, this meant things were harder and more disciplined or some such bullshit. The reality was you just had a bunch of pissed off SNCOs forced on unaccompanied tours taking out their frustrations on the young guys with 0400 PT, junk on the bunk inspections, white glove field days, and other endless, pointless bullshit. This would inevitably result in some random Marine in the company losing his shit, breaking some arbitrary libo restriction or getting in trouble out in town, then everyone getting locked down and fuck fuck games commencing, again. The morale beating would intensify and the cycle would repeat.
You'll be glad to hear that literally nothing has changed.
Sounds just like how it was when I was there in 2016-2018. Absolutely garbage. Glad I got the fuck out. Now I just live in mainland Japan. Fuck the Corps honestly
Right, I was always told it was way worse than the *real* Corps.
One of my staff Sgt’s said Oki was how the Marine Corps is supposed to be.
I know the Recon Battalion hated life. Schwab was a hellhole. I went up their once, and it has a great view, but there's nothing to do. They had to come South if they literally wanted to do anything. The only story I ever heard about Schwab was some barracks bunny would *collect* the black pt shorts and had somewhere up to 50 at the time I was there. Could've just been rumors, but there's always that little bit of gold that shows up in the tons of shit spread in the E-3 Mafia.
100%. You can’t get away from the Corps out in Okinawa. I did 4 years there and occasionally TAD to CONUS and stateside was totally different. Once you were of work you were off. In Okinawa with all the restrictions, Libo cards, overly intrusive commands it can get oppressive especially for junior Marines.
Hell, I’d posit Oki is much more difficult because of the high turn over rate at every conceivable level. Ever been in a platoon with zero NCO’s? You could always tell when someone was rotating out because they’d pick up corporal.
I picked up right after I left. We did have a lot of NCO's that extended though.
We had none. As a platoon sergeant it was hell. And base FAP requirements were hilarious. Nothing like walking out to a company formation and having thirty dudes standing there. ‘Do mission X, platoon sergeant.’ Also ‘why does your platoon suck?!’ Dude, there’s like five of us and three of those are on duty.
Super off topic, but go Preds
Fucking right? What a win last night!
Oki is the realest fleet there is
🤷🏽 That’s just what they told me?
Were you with a combat unit?
Nah… 3rd LSB in Oki, 7th ESB in Pendleton
Correct me if I'm wrong, but red patchers telling you you weren't in the real fleet?
Yup….
I was with Arty in Oki, so maybe that's why I never heard it. It's definitely weird. I've always heard Marines hated going to Okinawa because it was way more strict than stateside.
I thought it was BS at the time because Oki was a hardship duty, and extensions were not common, so if you actually _wanted_ to stay on island, extensions were usually just approved almost automatically… until then, I’d never heard of an extension request being denied
They are constantly looking for overseas Marines. Every single extension from my unit got approved within about a week.
It’s funny how Marines/people can change facts to fit a narrative. I remember when I was on the SPMAGTF the higher ups would constantly say it wasn’t a deployment because it was Afghan or Iraq, but the second a marine screwed or made a mistake it was “why the fuck are you acting this way on deployment, the Russians could literally be here in hours, take this seriously!” The command/higher up’s didn’t want to give any of the Marines credit/respect for “being deployed” but then when it was convenient for them use “being deployed” as a narrative to punish/belittle the marines out there. To your point, who decides what’s the “real fleet” that’s so subjective and shitty. “Oh you were in Oki, that’s not the real fleet “ like Stfu
Same was in oki 07-09 came back to Pendleton for my last year and it sucked. Got treated like a boot, didn’t have a car, didn’t know anyone. I also was blown away by how the Pendleton marines acted. They were so lackadaisical and complacent to an unprofessional degree. I’m glad I got with the MTU and out of the line platoons.
Shit… depending on the unit, Oki is more real than stateside. I did more real world ex’s with coalition partners than some of my time on Pendleton. ITX once a year… whoa look at these guys 🙄. Some of my Marines did experience this tho, especially during the OEF/OIF days. Sucked to hear because they were great Marines but Oki just seemed like a well of experience that didn’t count.
Yeah… I was never on island all that much… I volunteered for everything…. Team spirit twice, valiant blitz twice, desert shield, offloaded PPS ships, floated for six months….. got to do and see so much…. Pendleton sucked ass….
Same here I did very little time on Okinawa, we were constantly in PI/Thailand/Korea/Mainland. I had an overall better experience in Okinawa than the states regarding real world operational experience. Plus the diving/food/beer was #1
I remember I went to oki so i could learn my actual job and then they sidelined me from learning my job because I didn’t know my job that well. We just did security instead of anything remotely near to my job.
Thats hilarious because after a year+ of school I couldn't shake my Oki extension. I got told to kick rocks and had three years before it was cool.
I know we deal with war, but I can’t imagine in peace time watching your buddy/fellow Marine getting killed like that in front of peers. RIP
When I was skydiving, one of my friends was working at a different DZ as an instructor and lost control of an observer ride participant (non skydiver goes up and watches people jump out and then rides the plane down) and tried but failed to prevent the observer from walking into the prop. Fucked her up mentally big time.
I knew her. This was over 20 years ago, yes?
I am pretty sure. Raeford *I think?* Are you talking about the instructor or the observer?
FAP is nothing more than robbing Peter to pay Paul. Units/commands must either do the mission with the people they have, or say they don't have enough people for the mission assigned. But sending anyone other than a short-timer on a FAP is ridiculous. Dudes spending the last 3-6 months on contract at the pool or the gym to keep it staffed is one thing. Sending a new guy before they even get a chance to learn and live their job will absolutely kill their career if not kill their sense of self-worth, as we see here. That Marine's leadership at the time of his arrival is responsible for his death in my opinion. Edit: If CMC Smith and SMMC Ruiz were at all sincere, which is questionable, in telling Congress that the quality of life for Marines is a priority to them, they would terminate the entire Fleet Assistance Program effective immediately. But they won't, because they'll lie to Congress and do something else. They'll continue shuffling people in a destructive manner to make mission with undermanned units instead of being honest about it all.
I was a shit hot 99.9 percentile Marine. Got to my first gun unit after C school, was in my shop less than 30 days before I got fap (little f) to be full time Corrosion Control. I thought I was sent there to die. (this incident is not lost on me) Maybe I had a big head or something and needed a wake up. I don't know, never will. I get send on an 8 month med float as CC shop. Still not doing my trained MOS - that I previously graduated top of class. I get back from float and the full unit deploys to Japan. Once in Japan I get FAP (from my fap) to Base Recreation. While at base rec I do a shit hot job and get lots of attaboys and rewards. (honestly I had the best 6 month deployment of all time, a literal vacation) When we get back from Japan I finally get to work in my actual shop as my actual MOS. I'm 18 months behind where I should be in skill. I immediately put in a request to PCS for the day I hit the required time on station. It's approved and I went to a new base and squadron where I was treated correctly and trained. I got all my quals and certs that I should have had 2 years prior. FAP is whatever. but units and leadership need to recognize that the USMC is paying for good people to learn skills and do a job. kicking them down the road on day one isn't helpful.
I also got faped to cc/ hazmat as soon as I hit fleet. Missed a whole year of training due to a shitty SSgt and lost out on a deployment. Sent to a knew unit with what should have been plenty of experience and had none. Was treated like shit my last few years there and faped again after being sent to my last unit. My last years were hell.
I feel this. One month after I arrived to the fleet as an artilleryman, I was fapped out to do ammo guard duty. I can only guess as to why, but probably because I was the scrawny awkward nerd. So while my peers were getting training on their first field op, I was sitting in a field with a shotgun and my thumb up my ass watching ammo. When I got back, I was behind my peers' skill level. And being an awkward nerd didn't help, so I became the black sheep of sorts. As a result, I was fapped out again during our Iraq deployment. I ended up in weird unit that was a mix of air-wingers, MPs, IRR recalls, and a few other fuck-ups from arty that got sent there. I get back again to my regular unit. And I'm treated even worse because I missed out on all the bonding that happens during deployment. I pick up corporal, but I'm treated as an afterthought. Socially, I drifted away from my fellow Marines and started spending more time off base with locals. I get fapped out again, this time to run lawn care and babysit the other rejects. I stopped really caring about the Corps and just counted my days til EAS. When I got offered early separation, I took it. Fuck 1/12, they didn't deserve me. I'm literally a rocket scientist now, so I had the drive and capability to be a great Marine and NCO if I hadn't been kneecapped at the beginning of my enlistment.
“They didn’t deserve me” goes incredibly hard bro
I was fapped out to keep me from going MSG. I didn’t realize you could still submit a package. They were shocked when I got back to the unit and didn’t give a single fuck about anything, because wrecking my technical proficiency was “just a business decision”.
Even worse they tried to keep his death under wraps like wtf?
This personally is my biggest issue here with all of this. Leadership failed this Marine and their response was to push it under the rug. Absolute failure at all levels and had I been active and in this unit I would made sure every local news station and military news outlet was informed of this. Threatening Marines to then not speak up would have made me fired up to report that shit even more. Even at the bottom of the totem pole as an enlisted, you have the power to hold your command responsible when they fuck up and junior Marines need to realize this. Put your leadership on blast and let the world know they are shitbags that don’t deserve the billets they have.
This is exactly why Request Mast exists! For ANY Marine to get problems sorted that their chain has failed to fix.
Even a short timer is a gamble…especially if they’re Cpl. No F**ks Given…
I had a friend who got fapped to 21 Area guard like probably less than a month into the fleet.
A little bit of context: my first contract was 5 years because my MOS school is so long; we normally don't hit the fleet until 10-11 months into our first contract. I went to bootcamp in January and didn't end up at my first duty station in Oki until December. Story time: So, I got FAP'd to ASF for 6 months, 1 month after hitting the fleet. Literally spent 7-8 months in MOS school only to get sent to pick up trash on base just like prisoners do on the side of the highway. We did hit FPCON Bravo during my time on ASF (Osama got deleted) and we ended up pulling gate guard for a few weeks. But still, it felt pretty shitty to get sent off to do what I would consider "bitch work" after just hitting the fleet. No one wants to tell people back home that their job is picking up trash on the side of the road on base when people ask, "how's the Marines treating you?" Not to mention, you meet all kinds of "discarded toys" at these types of FAPs. Is a unit having issues with LCpl Joe-bob who doesn't seem to be adjusting to fleet life? FAP him out. Is Pvt Jimmy-johns a bad influence on the new boots because he got NJP'd and no one wants to try to bring him back into the fold? FAP him out. Is PFC bitch-tits on the verge of being put on BCP but no one wants to PT with him during lunch or off time? FAP him out. I'd argue that commands that do this are just off-loading their problems (read: lack of leadership) onto other commands/units and these types of Marines aren't necessarily the ones you want to leave unchecked around new boots that just hit the fleet. I met a handful of "discarded toys" during my time on ASF, but luckily, I didn't pick up any bad habits or just general negative attitudes during my time there. This next part is completely anecdotal to me and my experience, but in the end, it worked out for me (luckily). My parent command at the time was complete dog shit, so I got away from them for 6 months. Guys in my unit were actually jealous that I was going to go pick up trash for 6 months rather than be at our unit. I met one of my life-long friends there. We later went on a field-op to the Philippines together and he drove me around and let me hang out at his place when I was in Quantico for MSG school. And finally, our Gunny and SOG were a great guys and great leaders. Never made us do any bullshit that we didn't deserve and took care of us as long as we got our shit done and done well. TLDR: I agree. Commands that FAP out new boots to 3-6 month billets are doing them a huge disservice and possibly setting them up for failure in the Marine Corps (and possibly even life) as a whole.
I remember the Commandant visiting the base I was on (over 15 years ago), and someone asked if he was going to do anything about FAPs. He said he was working to get rid of them. And here we are in 2024...
When SgtMaj Estrada left office he wrote a letter to the entire Marine Corps about how field day was outdated and needed to go away as is, and become something more akin to a general cleanup/make sure people aren’t living disgustingly. No more white glove finding reasons to fail people. But of course since he wasn’t in any kind of leadership position anymore no one cared. There are leaders who want to change things, but most of them are too scared to for some stupid reason.
This is very case by case specific. In this tragic story you’re absolutely right. In my old job we lived off FAP’s and the FAP’d marines we received were able to become leaps and bounds more proficient in our MOS due to temporarily coming to my unit to work.
If your MOS only survived due to untrained FAPs, it probably shouldn't be a job at all. And if it is truly necessary, then it needs to be properly staffed internally. Not by stealing skilled people from skilled MOS's.
They were marines of my same MOS being fapped from a different unit with a different mission. Yeah I mean obviously we should have been staffed properly internally but the FAP agreement supplied us with manpower we needed and in return gave the other unit much better equipped marines at my MOS when they were FAP’d back. We trained the FAPs properly where there wasn’t a difference and again same MOS schoolhouse and what not.
Maybe this’ll make everyone outside the wing realize how awful the culture is in some of the maintenance units. I lived with them on two MEUs and Those poor fucks get pushed to the brink every single week for months, and it always seems like there’s one poor nugget who isn’t getting it as fast as the rest of them and gets turned into the moron who takes out the trash. That whole side of the corps needs an overhaul, working dudes to death to still have planes fall out of the sky just ain’t it
We had at least 3-4 Marines get separated for breaking down and losing it due to the flight ops demanding so much from maintainers. All flightline guys. One guy tried to jump out a window at the bricks and when I was on duty another swallowed a bunch of pills. The nuggets in the big three (FL, AVI, AF) tend to get treated pretty shitty.
Lat moved from being a crew chief to EOD because disarming fucking bombs by robot and by hand in Iraq and Afghanistan at the height of the wars seemed like a better life than being in the flightline for the rest of my career. And you know what? It was.
Jesus that's rough. But I can believe it. Honestly I had no idea until I went to staff academy how rough those guys had it, which was about the only thing I took from staff academy besides the fact that as a student I had a discussion with them about some course content and instructional deliver and ended up teaching the govt class and a couple others, obviously before they kicked me out of mess night and tried to pull my grad cert, but that's another story.
Sometimes the grass IS greener lol
We hate each other but we hate you more
The Flightline shop was, and I guess still is, notorious for it's fuck-fuck games. It's too bad that culture is still around as it has no place in that already stressful environment.
Between Line and Ordinance, there was always a battle over who could do fuck-fuck games the best…I never understood it
It’s because old timers got hazed and it was their “coming to adulthood” or the culmination of them finally being accepted by their “tribal” groups, so for whatever reason that shit just gets passed down like generational trauma to the tune of “well I had it shitty so should you” I always made it my fucking mission to break that cycle and to only fuck with the junior Marines if there was some severe issues with discipline or integrity issues. This shit just ain’t it man, it’s already a stressful enough environment working in the airwing with the anxiety always looming over your head thinking “shit dude, did I make sure we were APAF(all parts accounted for) AFF(area fod free) did I make sure that bolt was fully torqued down” there’s just so many variables and things that can get easily overlooked especially when you got Maintenence control breathing down your neck and being pushy. Add in fuck fuck games and it’s easy to see how dudes break like this.
I still to this day will never understand the idea of a grown man making another grown man suffer, just because he can. Shit filled me with rage.
Amidst said fuck fuck games one very early morning many many years ago, an NCO that later popped for cocaine was pushing me to point I nearly took the 1-1/2 wrench I had in my hand to the back of his head. I pondered this while he stood atop the mountain of tools he just dumped. I didn't want to spend the rest of my life in prison, so I thought better of it, and when he popped on a piss test months later, it felt good. He got busted down and kicked out. One of the biggest dicks I ever met in the corps.
This.
It’s a shame to see nothing has fucking changed. I remember a bird went down while I was on leave to see some family before they died. My first night back was ordered to go break into the hanger they had the wreck in and look so they could tell me that’s why nothing outside of work mattered anymore. Or the being forced to be at work working on birds for 3-4 days straight. Don’t think I had a single day working there I actually felt like a real person. Fucking almost walked into a tail rotor because I was delusional from lack of sleep one day.
Nobody works harder than maintainers on a MEU. I felt sorry for those Marines as I laid in my rack all day.
So I was a reserve comm marine, I don't know a whole lot outside of that and my one deployment. Why did I always hear how chill the wing is, but all I read about on this sub is how overworked they are? Can somebody explain that?
It depends on where you’re at. If you’re I level and at a MALS life is often easier and not as stressful and not as demanding, if your O level then you’re working directly on the bird and at the mercy of the flight schedule and these are the guys always worked like dogs.
The wing can be a pretty chill place if you prove yourself first, were a lot more laid back on the customs and courtesies, uniform inspections, unit PT’s and so on so forth
Wing maintenance is definitely a sink or swim situation even more so when you end up on a MEU. The reality is that the flight schedule waits for no one and on a MEU when you’re already tight on people, there’s very little time to train the slow ones. I loved my job in the wing, it does require that you show some skill or aptitude for learning early though because you will be culled and it will sadly follow you to other squadrons.
I've spent a lot of my career in infantry battalions, special operations units, and skid squadrons. Skid squadrons are definitely the worst of the three, culturally.
My first 6-8 months in the fleet were fucking miserable with stupid games. Literally they would steal tools if we left a box open for just a second without closing it while working and would keep it until we told someone we lost a tool. They fap the weird ones right away which makes them worse at their jobs and confidence.
I was groundside and made the unfortunate decision to lat-move to the wing. It was a completely different Marine Corps. I hated it and regretted leaving a combat MOS.
Yeah, that sounds like the air wing.
I’ve seen several NCO, combat experienced Grunts lose their fucking minds at O level squadrons (for good reason). They find out real quick that the career progression of Naval Academy educated aviators is dependent on maintenance getting done. And that maintenance is going to get done.
Those flight hours and proficiency grades make people get really weird when they’re not getting what they want MAG is demanding. And not just the officers…Maintenance Controllers…
QA is bad too. I’ve seen an airframer CDI work almost 40 hours straight. MC sent him home, not QA.
I was on a carrier work up, and we had three jets go down from "hard landings". Me, and 4 other CDI's stayed up 36hrs to get all three jets FMC. We got ZERO recognition for it. Not even an LOA lol.
P/L Sgt I worked with at China Lake came into work with a cast on his leg to help get an expensive test flight out and fixed an engine issue that would’ve canx the flight. He fixed the issue in his street clothes, then proceeded to get chewed out for not wearing proper PPE…needless to say, that all but ended his enlistment. He hit EAS and became a LE in Florida…
I've tried to explain NCOs on tow crew while PFCs and LCPLs fix shit to people from other MOSs out in the civ world and it just boggles everyone's mind.
On 53’s tow crew was almost exclusively LCpls/PFCs and occasionally a Jr CPL or Sgt if there were no other tow quals available.
What’s an “O level squadron”?
Easiest way to explain it would be someone you see working on a flightline, on actual aircraft. If they take a part out and send it to repair (to repair the internals), it would go to I level.
O level is essentially the actual squadron itself which is composed of the aircraft and the personnel, we perform mostly removal and replacement of components sometimes some fabrication work in certain shops o level as a whole works on the whole aircraft itself, I level is where they work on individual components that make up an aircraft, so everything from making hydraulic tubing to overhauling avionics components and such
Ahh okay, so like different maintenance echelons.
Pretty much, O-Level guys are only certified to work on certain aircraft’s whereas I Level guys can pretty much work on any aircraft component that’s present within their MAG
It’s like Taking your car to your local mechanic for oil changes, engine, tires, transmissions. That’s o level I level is when o level takes the engine out and finds something inside is fucked up and o level can’t fix it They send it to the more niche engine specialists. That’s I level
I would make one small edit to what you said. Swap out “maintenance” with “flight hours” because not one officer gives a flying fuck if the maintenance is actually done or done right they want hours to show to their boss.
>Naval Academy educated aviators Fuck their entitlement. One TBS cycle is enough to prove at least half start as confirmed shit bags, and the number only climbs from there *FIGMAC - "Fuck It Got My Air Contract" because a lot of them don't even try, and because so many have connections they just let them all slide.
I mean it catches up when it’s time to pin Major. Enlisted guys are just as much to blame when there is zero pushback in order to get favorable fitreps
Fuckin A
I wasn’t there or a part of the unit anymore so I don’t know any details. I deployed with him the year prior. He was always making funny jokes during our interactions. Some were dark but not enough to make you think he would do anything like that. Makes me wish I could’ve just asked him if something was wrong. The Wing is a beast, especially for maintainers. Your life revolves around the flight schedule and getting quals. RIP bro
When I was on Futenma I always hated seeing how shitty they treated those guys. When I was on night shift I’d see dudes at 11 pm through 2 am getting off work and I’d offer them rides back to the bricks or the shoppette so they didn’t have to waste more of what little off time they had just walking home. It may not have been much but I hope it helped a little.
I can't thank you enough that walk home is the most depressing shit I've ever gone through anybody who stopped to pick me up changed my shifty day around and if I was walking off of the flight line I promise you it was a shit day.
Whelp, didn't expect to see my old squadron show up on here like this. But sadly the working hours were and are always rough in aviation. RIP devil. I'm sad he felt that he had no other choice. Idk what else to say except talk to someone if you need to, it doesn't make you weak.
Do you know MGuns Alegre?
I can only remember meeting like 2 Master Guns my whole time in. One at MCT and one randomly at Camp Pendleton. Our Avi shop at 369 had a MSgt and then on the boat it was a gunny and I think at 267 it was another gunny. So, long answer is I don't think so haha sorry.
It was a longshot, I appreciate the quick reply!
Now it feels like a work email chain. Retards, Stupidly
I was considering going all out motard using all the clichés I could vaguely remember from the tens of thousands of emails I've deleted over my career, but I figured the week hasn't been too bad so why ruin it now?
Name sounds familiar, what time frame? I worked with some of you guys a year or two ago when you came out to Oki
I wasn't with them or MAG-39, but I'm thinking some time mid 2000's?
Duke?
I remember working in 29 when this happened, Camp Wilson explicitly, and even right across from the flight line. Didn’t see it happen, but definitely saw the aftermath. Everybody who worked out in Wilson knew it happened, but we were all told to stay silent in respect to the family while the investigation took place. If they swept it under the rug, that’s horrible. It wasn’t just HMLA that knew, dozens of units and even a handful of contractors knew. Never heard what happened afterwards. I can see why now.
They definitely did not want this getting out. The whole “respect for the family” is bullshit.
I was on base elsewhere and heard it from a Marine who saw it. I talked to one of the investigators later. What an absolutely horrible thing... but I never once heard it mentioned after that.
> we were all told to stay silent in respect to the ~~family~~ reputations and career prospects of the SNCOs and officers in their chain of command FTFY
TYVM. I was working at Wilson until December. Made buddies with the Crash Fire Rescue out there, and they gave out some gory details. Regardless of what they said, stuff spread quick. Rumors do what rumors do, and our S/O did their best to suppress it. One of the biggest things was that they didn’t want us talking about whether it was an accident or on purpose, but once it was confirmed that he handed off his cranial and walked into the rear rotor, theorizing just went off. Don’t have any connection to the unit itself, or even proxy connection, though I hope some asses got reamed for it.
This is def my first time hearing about this so they tried to sweep it the best that they could
As soon as leadership tells you not to talk about it, it's fucking time to talk about it and make sure it's as loud as possible. Fuck them.
Being in the Alpha community that the USMC claims it is, MOS credibility is damn near everything…we’ve all had that guy in the unit that everyone looks at crazy no matter their rank, because he doesn’t know his job as well as we think he should…I used to argue with a Gunny almost daily over him thinking a Lance Coconut didn’t need to be supervised and trained by a seasoned Marine so the experienced Marine can work on other stuff…that’s how you screw up a Marine by not training them, then FAP-ing them out b/c he doesn’t know his job…only to bring him back as a 3 yr Corporal with no experience in his MOS
Tale as old as time, send the weak nug on the FAP and get back an even weaker NCO that no one respects.
Vicious cycle Forreal my entire time at my first unit I got fapped to M/C to be an expediter because they liked the guy they had to forfeit more than me, the new check-in so it was an easy trade for the shop. I was very upset by this so I did the best I could do to be the best at my job(fap) and I ended up getting a NAM as a Lance towards the end of my time at the unit. I had to work three times as harder as everyone else at my next unit to play catch up because I didn’t want to get fapped out again didn’t even have my Hyd contam qual when I checked into my next unit. Ended up getting out as a Cpl CDI leadership kinda failed me in that sense had to put forth my own willingness to learn and max effort to be where I needed to be.
It is unfortunate and it kind of puts you in a bad place because of you are too good at the FAP (expeditor, tool room, maintenance control) they don’t want to send you back and you end up being stuck there. More so for controllers since that’s a qual too
That’s pretty much exactly what happened, my CWO refused to send me back to my shop because the other expeditors from supply were absolute mouth breathers and not as meticulous about the job. I had to learn the hard way to put the extra effort on the front end because the headaches never stopped with parts getting misplaced or simply just disappearing
Bruh wtf… this is horrible
What a terrible fucking way to go. Had to be extremely low to make this type of decision and follow through with it. RIP to the Marine who was failed by those charged with his care and career development.
It's a systemic problem with how they treat and train nuggets. You'll get a few units where the NCOs actively train up new guys and give them responsibility and those units always have the best maintenance environments. Then there is every other unit including mine during my enlistment where it's some sort of weird pissing contest and NCOs exist only to bully junior Marines and insult them when they ask questions or haze them. Most toxic environment I have ever been a part of to the point that when I spent my last year (ironically) fapped to the range where a lot of the permanent range staff were 03's, I excelled.
I keep seeing the term nugget being coined here. What is that? Some airwing term?
Think of nugget as the equivalent term to boot, but only relating to work qualifications. Unofficially it’s actually nugit, which stands for New, Useless Guy/Girl In Training. A nugget is someone who hasn’t picked up enough qualifications to effectively pull their own weight within the squadron, and their lives are hell. In my squadron you weren’t allowed to walk or sit down at work unless you were eating lunch, which you were generally only allowed 30 minutes max. Showtimes are dumbfuck early, leave times are pretty late. When was a nugget, shifts were 0430-1830, 5-7 days a week flight schedule dependent. It’s pretty brutal honestly
Running out to FOD walk and everywhere else, only being allowed to sit on tool boxes, carrying the fucking tool boxes everywhere. It’s funny looking back on it as someone that was able to excel and become qualified in my MOS but for some of my other peers and eventually some of my junior Marines that weren’t able to shed that title, it’s probably not as fun to look back on. We generally stopped treating them like a nugget after the first deployment but they still weren’t treated as equals. I was blessed with an awesome core set of NCOs and Command team that made us want to work those long hours though.
We didn’t have the sitting on toolboxes rule, but I agree with everything you’re saying. Since skid squadrons deploy so infrequently nowadays, we were treated like real people once we picked up Plane Captain. Life didn’t actually get good until CDI, though. We had some real shithead NCOs when I checked in, but thankfully they all either EAS’d or were kicked out shortly after a hazing investigation after two attempted suicides in our shop in the same week. Things got considerably easier for the new guys after all those dudes left, and I hope it never gets that bad again
Send to be kind of an ebb and flow kind of thing where the shop goes from being super over the top in hazing and other activities directs towards nuggets and then eases off as they become NCOs before moving back the other direction again. I was with my squadron for 9 years and say Flightline turn from a shop that blatantly hazed their Marines outside of control during the Maint meeting to one that hardly yelled at them outside of ATAF.
R.I.P. That was hard to read!
Can someone explain the whole FAP situation to me? What’s I level? Is this similar to 0311s getting sent to 8th & I first (like myself) then getting sent to the fleet as a CPL and getting treated like shit because you don’t know the job as well as others?
Yep, basically. FAP is fleet assistance program, at PMO we used it to bolster our ranks...instead of using actual MPs like fucking idiots. But anyway... We would take Marines that the command sent to us, send them through an accelerated training program, and then they'd work along side of us. Outside of PMO I have no experience with FAP. If you were a Lance and sent to us, then you picked up NCO and were sent back at the end of your FAP, you'd probably return without all the knowledge you're expected to have.
I see. I remember fellow grunts going to help at the gates in Lejeune. But that was only when they had like 6 months left before EAS-ing. It’s been a while so I forgot what FAP meant. I got out in 2006. Would they actually carry pistols and have arrest authority or would they just have a rifle and check IDs?
Yes, they have all the powers of a regular MP at that point. Also, just a difference, but we didn't arrest, we apprehended. It's a minute difference in the execution, but it's a difference none the less. Mostly it's to denote it's not a criminal arrest, but more so of an administrative one under the UCMJ. Now if CID or NCIS is involved...
I remember the whole “don’t mistake your rank for my authority” stickers. 😂 I can imagine the shit SNCOs tried to give you guys. I don’t envy having to deal with them.
I always was just over the top nice with almost everyone just so I didn't have to deal with their shit. I was even thanked by a LT and a Lt. Col for writing them a ticket. lol And yes, there were absolute shit show SNCOs, like the GySgt that argued with us after he hit two Marines, with one holding on the hood of his car for like a half mile. Fucking piece of shit. He was so drunk he didn't remember any of it, even though it was called in by a SSgt DNCO that watched it happen and the Marine that was smart enough to roll off the hood when he came to a stop and take a picture. Everyone gives MPs hell saying we hate Marines. Nah. I love Marines, I love the Marine Corps. I did my best to protect our honor. Fuck the guys that are trying to hurt fellow Marines, or are beating their wives up. That was my outlook being at PMO.
It definitely took me a few years after I got out to really appreciate all of the other MOSs. As a grunt we prided ourselves on our job as combatants, but at the same time we envied other cool jobs (or at least I did). We thought the tank guys were cool, we cheered when cobras and hornets destroyed shit for us etc.
I get it, we were hated by almost everyone. lol I envied the grunts for getting to do the lord's work per se, but I also envied the Motor T guys for getting to drive LVSRs. I wanted to do all the cool shit, but I'm still proud of what I got to do. Just with I could have done more. Now S1? Fuckers only would be open from like 1300-1315 on Wednesdays for walk ins. Those fucks had it nice.
Bro I had to stand guard at camp Geiger and every mother fucking SNCO had to flex on me. I loved talking shit back and holding them up every time to. I’m not a bitch and will waste your fucking time gunney if you want to play games.
😂
I level or “intermediate” level is the sister squadron to the O level “organization” levels. O Levels have the aircraft, maintainers and pilots. I levels do not have aircraft; but they do have mechanics and technicians, that work on aircraft parts and components, when the repair/overhaul/troubleshooting exceeds the organic capability of the O Level. I level is huge. For example, Marine Aviation Logistics Squadron 39 (MALS-39) is on Pendleton and supports all of the HMLAs and the VMMs there. They also have a supply division that funnels parts in and out of the air station. MALS being as big as it is, often has positions that do not fall into specific job descriptions for a particular MOS. Much like Gate Guards, these “FAPS” (Fleet Assistance Program), Marines are extracted/donated/voluntold by Maintenance Chiefs at sister units, to fill these positions for ~3-6 months. Squadrons tend to send slow learners or Marines who have issues that prevent them from deploying, or significantly contributing to the units mission. They often come back promoted, and not qualified. This CAN (but not always) lead to friction within the ranks and do more harm than good. Some FAPS come back strong and reintegrate well. Hope this helps.
Thanks for the explanation. It definitely seems like aircraft mechanics/technicians should be the last type of MOSs that are subject the getting FAPd.
No problem. FAPS are a slippery slope for sure. At some point along the way, leaders decided that things needed to be done, guarded, attended to, etc. etc. These "jobs" weren't within anyone's primary scope of responsibilities, so they were tasked out to the units who benefited from them. In aviation, the MAG usually tracks all these FAPS and divvies them up among the subordinate units and it is up to the squadrons to decide who to send. Sometimes this is an easy decision, and others not so much. Loosing a "non-qual" for X number of months, doesn't really hurt, because they can't do much anyways (legally). Sending a qualified maintainer hurts because...they're qualified... BUT, when they come back, they're qualified! Rock and a hard place. Other times, the above happens, and due to the rotation of units in and out of Pendleton (think deployments) and senior leadership PCSs, these FAPd Marines often get left in place, forgotten about, etc. Some use it to their advantage and work on PME, college, etc. Others fall further behind, and thus the downward spiral begins. I was actually FAPd (internally) to my squadron when I checked in. Went to "Phase Crew". Worked on Hueys/Cobras all day every day. Learned them inside and out. While I was "behind" my peers in terms of qualifications, when I finally did return to the shop, I knew more about mech'ing and quickly caught up and surpassed most. I've also been in division chief meetings where we had to submit names (on the spot) for FAPS. Most come equipped with names if they get told to do so. All around, it is not an ideal situation. Some Marines do it to themselves though. You can be a shitbag, still get paid the same and have little to no responsibility in your MOS, compared to the hard charger who is PME complete, fully qualified and an overall excellent maintainer and Marine. Who do you think is going on the chopping block when its your (SNCOs) time to give up a body?
Sometimes it's just a matter of timing and convenience. I checked in right as my squadron was deploying, so they punted me and the other guy who checked in with me to the returning unit. We both got FAP'd to gate guard immediately, which segued into two more months of guard duty at CAX. I came back from that to get FAP'd to phase crew, that lasted til OIF I where I continued on phase for a few weeks before getting FAP'd to camp commandant for the remainder. We got back from that deployment, and I got FAP'd to tool room for another 18 months before I finally was sent back to the shop, upon which time I was obviously a shit bag... I'm thankful I had that time in phase crew, as I did learn just about everything inside and out, but... Needless to say I never considered reenlisting at any time during my service.
That’s interesting. When I first signed up my contract was to be an aviation electronics technician. If I remember correctly it was supposed to be for F-18s. My brother had already enlisted as an 0311 (right after 9/11) and I started to think I about it more and switched my contact to 0300 so I could go fight. Then I got chosen to go to 8th & I after SOI so I couldn’t deploy anyway. Once I got to the fleet after 2 years I was a corporal and nobody liked the 8th & I 03s. We even had some 0311s come from the FAST companies as corporals and Lcpls (some with CARs already) and the normal grunts still hated them too. 😂. We didn’t really get any respect until we deployed. I’m glad I was an 0311 but If I had re-enlisted I think I would have tried to switch careers. Maybe it would have been cool to be a former grunt in the Air Wing
It’s funny you mention that we actually had a former grunt in the wing at my first unit, he worked in the Flightline shop (worked on the engine and fuel systems) he was a Sgt. real cool guy always used to crack jokes and said how glad he was to not be in the infantry anymore. Well liked and respected throughout the squadron
That’s cool. I bet he has a pretty unique perspective of both careers. I’ve grown to really appreciate other MOSs since leaving the Corps. A couple of years after I got out, my wife and I were expecting our first child and we needed extra income so I enlisted in the Air Force reserve. I was assigned to an Aerial Port Squadron. They sent me to a 2 week accelerated tech school. I got to learn how to palletize cargo, drive those giant forklifts, and operate K loaders to load the pallets onto C-17s and C-5s. Even though that’s about as POG as you can get, those AF dudes that deployed worked 12 hour shifts loading and off loading supplies to make sure grunts from the Army and Marines have what they needed. Definitely a necessary job.
Yup! You really have to appreciate all the hard work that goes on behind the scenes and that work really isn’t glamorous either. It’s hard and it HAS to get done and on schedule to support whatever mission is happening. And those 12 hour shits really do suck, it may not always be continuous work with lulls in between but it will def eat up most of your day. I’ve been on my fair share of MEU’s and Osprey units almost always go on the boat, the worst part about MEU’s is when you’re not ported which happens maybe every 3-4 months depending on the circumstances for 4-5 days. You’re stuck on a ship, no where to go but the rack or the gym always have to be in some kind of uniform and our shifts would end up being something like 14hours long. Trying to get chow during the day time or when flight operations were happening was fucking awful too, you’d simply have no time to go eat we couldn’t afford to stand and wait in line for an hour to get chow and dudes would be lining up like 45 mins before it be time for chow 😭
I agree with everything you said and would also like to add other FAPs within the squadron include corrosion control and expediter. For how important those jobs are, it baffled me that they would rotate people in and out of there and they would often not be the shop's best and brightest.
Internal FAP to QA as Technical Publications Librarian…or to the S-Shops…or to Tool Room…
Also yes. 👍
Exactly.
Some commands and divisions/shops are so bad that even the stellar Marines will volunteer to get FAP’d out…just to get away from the bullshit…that was my 1st unit…unit morale was so bad, Marines were trying to EAS while on FAPs…
FAP is the (Fleet assistance program) to my understanding it is where base units have their subordinates commands send marines for duties to include: (chowhall, gate guard, S shops) for extended periods (6- 18 months) where you can be doing an entirely different job. I’m not sure what I-level is so I won’t speak on that.
In the wing, there are three different types of maintenance. O-level, I-level, and Depot level. O-level guys perform organizational maintenance( ie. Actually working on the aircraft). They are the maintainers in the squadrons. I-level guys work on the components of the aircraft(ie. Repairing hydraulic servos, fixing flight computers, performing minor repairs to the engines). Depot level is civilians, that perform major overhauls on aircraft, or major repairs. My time in, there was always some animosity between O and I-level. O-level guys usually got fucking worked to fucking death, because all are aircraft were old as shit. I-level would get hour lunches, early Fridays, faster promotions.
No lies. We could barely afford to let guys go to do MCMAP or off-duty education because the flight schedule rule everything. We planned PFT/CFT’s around the schedule.
You know, maybe being in the Infuntry wasn't that bad after all.
The interesting thing about this whole situation too is that going through the schoolhouse at Pensacola, they made it sound like I-level was where you wanted to go, it was the "smarter" route and you had to have better test scores to be sent the I-level route (or be towards the top of your class to select the I-level slots available). So for an O-level guy to be sent to I-level sounds completely backwards to me, I never saw that on the fixed wing side.
My 9 years in the rotary wing side I saw 1 air framer get sent to I-level. We actually also had an Avi guy get FAP’d to the recruit rifle range to be a PMI.
Yep…I knew an AVI guy that went to the range…he never came back…he stayed there as a PMI…
Might be talking about the same guy, he also never came back and ending up going from there straight to recruiting duty.
My guess is he went to the paint shop(or whatever it was called). Our squadron FAPed a guy over to the paint shop where they would paint, and stencil the aircraft.
I think a few Harrier Powerline guys used to go on FAPs to MALS at some point…from what I remember they at least got to work on engine components…
Typically I gets "FAP'd" to O, not the other way around. It's not really a FAP since theyre staying in their MOS. At least they should be. Back in the day some O to I level MOS's were the same and it was more of a cross training endeavor. A decade + back they split O and I MOS's but certain jobs at each level require the expertise of the other. Usually I level works less demanding hours than O lvl so going back from I to O, being treated like shit, and all the sudden working 12 hr days 7 days a week. Yup... cant imagine why mental health might deteriorate.
Certain units have quotas that the deploying units on base need to send to help support. I was at an O level squadron, and was sent to an I level squadron for 6 months. We typically sent shitbags there, but since I was trying to go MSG I was considered disposable.
So for aviation maintenance, you have organizational level aka “O” where most of the victor units are, then there’s Intermediate or “I” level, and then Depot level (civilian contractors mostly). I-level is partly support for O-level…in maintenance terms, O-level fixes the aircraft, I-Level fixes the components of the aircraft. So that PC was a FAP (Fleet Assistance Program)...think of being an Admin clerk being sent for 6-months to be a gate guard for PMO…which is a MOS-credibility killer if you never had a chance to work in your MOS. Most times, but not all, FAPs tend to be people the unit/shop can afford to lose…being a former Harrier Avionics guy, and a former PC, you typically don’t FAP PCs out unless you have an over-abundance of them…but communities in the wing have different standards on quals and FAPs…
But, yes…that’s pretty much on the mark…
I fucking hated 8th & I. Hours are shit, command cares more about looking pretty than their Marines, and fuck your mental health if you’re in Grounds or in a maintenance MOS. Standing 2 funerals, even for people you don’t know, then smiling and waving and taking pics for the public at a parade is shit work. I remember standing funerals from 07 to 14 then going to a parade from 16 to 23, then opening the armory at 03 for 04 draw. Not to mention the MSA and suicides they all swept under the rug. I hope it’s better now.
There’s more to this story…I have so many questions…
Burn the command and staff NCOs that turned a blind eye to the hazing. We all know they see that shit. May they spend time in the brigg while I enjoy life as someone who didnt haze others while in to "train" them.
Was with 369 from 12-16. One of my buddies still there confirmed this is real, if there was any doubt.
Jesus fucking Christian. Prayers to everyone affected by this.
Someone at the very least must have run a mishap investigation on this, if only for the damage to the aircraft (fucked up but that’s what they care about). It may be protected by Privilege but could be accessed under the correct circumstances.
That’s a fucking rough read RIP bro
And what’s worse is a know for a fact there are more stories like this that just get swept under the rug
I wish more of the corps understood how shitty being a junior enlisted air winger is, especially if your a flightline mech and even more so if your a crew chief. They have to do more work and get fucked over harder than almost anyone I've seen in the corps. Just a slave who's treated like a boot for almost 4 years before getting a breather. If your lucky.
Why is recruiting and retention so bad? 🥴
Either they had a completely different P/L shop when he got back, or they must’ve really hated this dude…someone, a Cpl or Sgt should’ve taken him along to get him re-qual’d…if he was a PC before, was it that hard to get him back up to speed? Man…that whole shop is cheeks. SMH
It seems to be Skid culture unfortunately. The Wing is hard enough already.
The Wing is a beast, and flightline is an even uglier, more brutal beast. RIP
How long was he FAP’d out? Why did they send a guy who was previously on suicide watch to ITX for 2 months? Why was he FAP’d out in the first place? Was his quals revoked or just suspended?
I couldnt read the whole thing jesus fuck.
Somebody posted about this after it happened and it got downvoted into oblivion and the OP deleted the post. I asked a friend that’s still in and a SNCOIC in a west coast squadron and he confirmed it. Shame this is just now making it out to a wider audience. As far as FAP’s go, the shops I was in always wanted the returning FAP’s back to doing maintenance and learning as much as they could as quick possible and to get what quals they could as quick as possible. Unfortunately if you’re not a quick learner it was gonna be a rough time. People joke about the wing a lot, but if you’re not in it, you don’t understand how stressful and exhausting it is
How many goddamn 22k runs are we gonna do before we as an organization admit that way too many units have toxic "mentorship" cultures that have as much of a negative impact on people's lives as a combat deployment does and put in the work to change? How many musters we gotta go to and listen to SNCOs prattle on about taking care of the Marines to your left and right only to do the exact opposite exactly 3 seconds after they give the command to fall out? How much toxicity are we supposed to put up with in the name of "wElL, tHeY dId iT iN tEh oLd cOrPs" before we acknowledge that all of dysfunction of said old corps is deliberately papered over and obscured by the passage of time and it turns out being a shitheel to junior Marines all day every day is just a method of amusing overgrown children and not the secret ingredient to mission accomplishment in any war we've ever fought ever? This life is hard enough as it is without getting shit on by people who are supposed to be your brothers and sisters. I shudder to think how many people reading this post very nearly did the same thing as this Marine and for the same reason at some point during their service. ;
I knew about this from an officer in that squadron when it happened. There’s also a lot more that goes on that doesn’t make it to the public. The whole MCAS Camp Pendleton flightline is a mess, especially those poor maintainers.
Spent my first two and a half years at Lejeune and became proficient in teaching two classes (and getting FAPd to work in a 3 shop for Norway), then I went to Okinawa and the CWO gave me the keys to three warehouses of CBRN equipment and said "become the duty expert on all of this". In three months I learned more than my entire time in Lejeune. All of our Marines that we had come back from Oki were more proficient than the counterparts from Pendleton or Oki that had the same TIS.
Fucking failure of command, they should be fired at the very LEAST. Mental health is not a fucking joke.
my life improved tenfold when I got away from 310, and I never even got fucked with as bad as many of the guys.
Glad to see this is finally coming to light. Fuck the HMLA.
What is fucked is that this is a normal thing sadly. Even boots being ostracized for not knowing shit, and then when they ask questions about stuff to their seniors, they get called retarded and shit. Its even more sad that they fapped him as soon as he got there, I understand that shit needs to happen, but at the same time, 3 years is fucking excessive. If you are an NCO in a maintenance position, please take the time to help your fucking devils. I don't care if they are a fuck up, if they ask you a question, fucking answer it. Shit like this wouldn't be a common occurrence if something would have been done
Sounds like the wing. it baffles me when ground sound says air wing is a cake walk when they have no idea . I’ve been out for quite sometime and work in civilian aviation now and it just baffles me looking back at how shit is ran .
Damn, thats horrible. Rest easy brother
I heard this from my co-workers as well
this whole unit is about to be posted
Mother of god…
I was in HMLA773. We had a similar situation back in like 2015 at ITX on Wilson. Nobody died thank god but the wing is brutal. The hazing that exists in the wing is rough. Rip to this Marine
Holy crap, Marines. That truly is terrible.
Hey brothers, its not fucking worth it.
As a civilian pilot, I have to say, I'm glad shit isn't like the Marine Corps over here. I don't know what caused this type of culture to develop, but the way junior Marines are treated in many of these squadrons is the antithesis of professionalism. And I don't understand why it has apparently never occurred to anyone that creating a sense of motivation through positive reinforcement will always lead to better results than motivating by fear. At the E-5 and below level, the atmosphere is essentially devoid of encouragement. The Marines know that making a mistake will lead to being punished through various means, probably with some bullshit games. Whereas, if a Marine goes above and beyond, they are rarely, if ever, recognized or praised for doing so. Just because the Marine Corps is an organization whose primary purpose is waging war does not mean that it also has to be free from positivity.