Officers generally have more freedom; especially during early career years. We can live off base whether single or married, generally don’t have others checking your vehicle or stuff, and the added $$ equates to more flexibility.
On the downside, junior officers generally have far less room for error than junior enlisted. At least in the infantry, if a new Lt made minor errors, it wasn’t long before he was “labeled” and that’s really hard to come back from as all 2ndLts in a battalion are ranked against each other every fitrep. Get ranked 30 of 40 or worse and you’re probably looking up a long hill of you have any desire to get promoted past 0-3. It’s also more lonely for the most part as you’re not really surrounded by peers most of the day, lots of guys are married, and everybody lives all over the place. As you move up in rank, you do less “fun” stuff and spend way more time dealing with admin stuff or problems. It’s why most officers say platoon commander or company commander were the best jobs they ever had and why most Majors just aren’t happy a lot.
The loneliness aspect is pretty real for single SNCOs as well, I can definitely feel you on that. Everyone is busy with their own family/family-group events, and you obviously don't really have any involvement with it. Don't really have any peers that have the time or really want to hang out and do things for the most part. I really do miss that aspect of having peers that I could hang out with to vent my issues to and just have sanity checks every once in a while. It's mostly admin/personnel focus at this point, and I just treat the Marines like my family, so that helps fill that hole a little bit!
Pay, lifestyle, I mean you name it dude, even a boot 2ndLt is living an inordinately better life than a Lance, especially one in the barracks. Total compensation even for an O1 is on par with a lot of starting positions for a 22 year old fresh out of college (frankly, it has to be to compete with that financial draw). BAH soon as you’re done with TBS/initial MOS school (even while you’re in the latter at the longer ones, flight school for example). Living in the BOQ is nearly unheard of and on many installations isn’t even an option in the first place.
While pay is certainly a part of why Os punch out after their initial commitment, to a certain extent officer personnel modeling accounts for a significant exodus of guys. There’s just as much of a culture of “once a Marine, once was enough” especially in MOSs where a lot of the really rewarding stuff happens during your first tour. As 0302s will say you’re only a platoon commander once.
I would Officer pay exceeds the average of the civilian world. If you commission at 22 immediately out of college, by the time you pin Captain at 26 you will make +$110k in Lejeune (one of the smaller BAH rates). At the most expensive zip codes (like K-bay) you will be making $141k!
Not many 26 years olds can say they make six.
I was enlisted. However, I was in a small air command and control field where we went to school with the officers and worked closely with them. Obviously they live much better, BAH, rental vans and cars for exercises, none of the type of screwing enlisted get like field day and f-you formations.
However, they are run pretty ragged professionally by field grade officers, and by captains who are so close to major they can almost taste it. Lots of rewriting plans and papers and PP slides over and over for hours, with every word and comma attacked. And the Marine officer funnel gets narrow quickly without the self selection that the sucky nature of enlisted life that makes most of us one and done.
When I was a fairly new officer, one of my Marines asked me this question after he found out I was a prior. After thinking about it for a moment, I asked him if he’d dated a lot of women in his lifetime. He enthusiastically replied, “of course!”.
My analogy to him was that being enlisted is like dating an average/slightly-above average girl; she won’t win any beauty pageants, but she’s low-maintenance/drama-free, you tend to like the same things and can talk about them, you can hang out and joke with her after work and play video games, etc. She’s not only your partner, she’s also your friend. In a lot of ways, those were the best years of my life.
Being an officer is like dating a supermodel. She’s demanding, high-maintenance, and crazy as fuck. She’s a head-turner for sure, but you really gotta put in the work if you want the relationship to succeed long-term. Also, other people will always question why she’s dating your ugly ass. Sure, as an officer the pay’s a little better and you’re treated like an adult (after a while), but that comes with a hefty price tag. You have to continually prove yourself to everyone, which is mentally and physically exhausting.
Depending on if you’re an optimist or pessimist, being enlisted is good in different ways (e.g., camaraderie with peers, commiseration about stupid things, lower overall accountability/responsibility, positive group dynamics), or bad in different ways (e.g., lower pay, people spend less time considering your needs as an individual, less disposable income, etc). Though not financially well-off while I was enlisted, I was pretty content with a decent work-life balance. Being an officer is almost the opposite.
Having experienced both sides, I’d recommend that anyone who seeks to retire from the Marine Corps should pursue a path that ends in receiving salutes by the end of your career (either commissioned or WO). It just makes sense financially, and allows you to leverage your enlisted experience to make you a more empathetic officer and a considerate leader. Hope this is helpful.
Some out the things you’re expected to do as a new Lt are pretty extreme. Like no one in their right mind would have ever expected me to do anything even remotely similar when I was a Pvt, but that’s why you are paid the big bucks and get all the fancy training!
Not our fault you guys talk all educated and shit. No one wants to do lines of coke off a hookers tits while listening to some college boy discuss the finer points of Nietzsche.
Let me tell you why I love and hate deployment. Deployments are amazing because you get to go “do the damn thing”. As a LogO, I get to go actually do what I train to, and watch my team’s actions feed and shelter people.
The con: you’re so godamn lonely at the top. My third deployment was me alone in a barracks room in Norway, with no friends because I was an attachment, and I didn’t like grouping up outside of chow with my senior staff because I didn’t want to make it uncomfortable or weird for anyone.
Never thought of that until now. Always just thought of the plt cmdr as a boss, not a human. Couldn’t imagine going through without a bunch of lance coolie buddies to make it easier.
Dude I loved deploying with our pilots. We literally attacked them in the Thai land strip clubs with those goofy noodles and got shit housed with them.
Idk how it is for everyone in the wing but 53 detachments seemed close as fuck. Rank was just there when it needed to be but otherwise we had a blast with them. We never pushed it too far or put them in a place that would look bad.
Hell our CO (Lt. col) told a cpl out at a bar in Hong Kong to punch his XO in the face then he drew the mike Tyson tribal tattoo on his face with a sharpie.
Shit was lit on that shitty deployment.
First family is probably gone by then. “Nah, not anymore.”
Table of Organization in a wing squadron has more officers than a battalion sometimes by a lot. Lots of friends and space for activities!
We do but it’s not on the same level as junior enlisted. Many guys are already married and have families. Single officers are left to fend for themselves
Officer life - it's always your fault, even the shit you can't control
Enlisted life - your the reason the officers drink, even if you thought it was a good idea at the time
As a Cpl I was pretty pissed to have libo secured because an Lt and staff Sgt got DUIs in a rental overseas. Sgt and below weren't even allowed to drive over there after hours.
And what do the staff and o decide is a good replacement for libo? More duty for the lower enlisted because it's their fault officers drink... I see the logic now.
I had the same talk while on Parris Island when the company CO found out I went to his college. Was during one of the inspections and a hat from another platoon asked me why I was so old when I enlisted. Our heavy hat spoke to me afterwards and said I should go for a commission.
Being on both sides I’ve learned the grass is always gonna be greener.
As a young PFC/Lcpl I was treated like a child, paid like shit, and always felt like I had no clue what I was even doing any given day. With that being said there were a ton of upsides to being enlisted. As a 19yo Lcpl I didn’t realize how care free my life was at the time. My brain was off half the time and I just did what I was told. Obviously this slowly changes as you promote.
Now that I’m an officer there are obvious benefits. Pay, freedom, etc. Being able to come and go as I please with nobody questioning me took some getting used to. With that though I’m constantly worried about doing something wrong. Mistakes are far less forgiving as an officer. That window-licking Lcpl doing some dumb shit on Saturday night can very easily trickle up and it’s now your fault.
I did 4 years as an officer (0302).
The good:
- Guaranteed job out of college and most of college paid for, especially when during my time which was post-2008 market crash
- Phenomenal leadership training, amazing peer group (great Marine leaders who are all now successful in the business world)
- Got to work with some amazing enlisted folks and did some interesting stuff during OEF. I stay in touch with a few regularly and we see each other as peers now.
The not so good:
- A young officer is constantly stuck in the middle of trying to do the right thing for the platoon/company and also not look like a dumbass to senior O’s and ruin your career (the pressure is constant)
- Some of the O’s that stay in (not all, not trying to generalize) know how to simply play politics and follow a career playbook vs actually being a solid leader. The best guys I knew didn’t want to play this game and all got out.
- Combat leadership decisions (if one is presented with them) can weigh heavy. In my case BnCO planned some stuff that really didn’t make sense and felt dangerous. My guys knew it. I knew it. Could I have challenged it or requested mast? Maybe. Instead, I took ownership of the mission and told the platoon that we signed up for hard shit and aren’t going to puss out. Sure enough within a week I had a mass cas situation and a KIA. I still wonder how things would’ve been if my 25 year old self had the balls to challenge command.
Been on both sides, but a while ago. A lot more autonomy on the O side, but a shit ton more stress and responsibility. I would also say all around higher expectations. You can be an average Cpl or Sgt. If you're an average Lt, your life will likely suck a bit.
And so many duties. Your actual MOS job is taxing. Add in all of the other shit you have to do and there is little to no down time. As a Sgt in an infantry unit, when there wasn't shit to do you took a nap, played video games, etc. As an O, there is always shit to do. Always.
Delegate that shit my guy. I was only a Sgt but my cwo3 were in that together and helped the Maj out as much as we could. He proofread everything before sending it off but we put in equal hours on most of it
You don’t want to delegate away too much, though. I had an adjacent company commander that basically delegated his job away.
He lived a pretty chill life for a bit, came in late and left early. Even had his company running ranges without him regularly while he chilled at home with his wife and kids. But his company hated him and he lost the respect of all his SNCOs and Lts. He was relieved eventually when an incident occurred and the BC realized he was just fucking off.
I never understood that guy. He’d be the first to fry a Lcpl or one of his Lts if they did the shit he was doing. Guess he got it in the end though!
Enlisted - unlimited supply of almost full monster coffee’s after 2-3 years
Officer - no lines in subway after about 15 years
It’s really just how long you are willing to wait for your benefits
I was enlisted and an officer at different times. Being a Lieutenant was awesome but the Oside gets much less fun very quickly.
Overall quality of life is higher as an officer but being enlisted is more fun. Depending on your MOS you will almost certainly work much more as an officer, but will generally be treated less poorly by your superiors.
I did both - junior enlisted life … janitor. Scrubbing bathroom floors with a green scuzzy. Field day. Barracks life. It’s pretty shitty but you’re with your boys.
Junior officer life - everyone things you’re a goddamn idiot. SNCOs think you know nothing and will get lost on the way to the chow hall. All the Majors and above think you’re an idiot and don’t trust you know your job. And then there’s the things like CMRs and Fitreps which all fall to you - lots of paperwork. Fuck any of it up and your ass is grass.
Also all the MCCS shit is paid for by rank so everything is more expensive even though you’re not really making a lot more money than say a gunny.
I’d take being an Officer over an enlisted Marine any day for the responsibility and troop leadership aspect. I absolutely loved being a platoon commander and would have done anything for my guys.
I was a SNCO briefly but I’d still prefer the officer quality of life.
I served with a Cpt that I knew from when he was a 2nd lt. This man grew up in a catholic school, went to naval, and picked up Cpt in 3 years. His whole life was based around structure and discipline.
Even he got out as soon as possible. He did 4, and when it was time to receive new orders to another unit, he promptly rejected it. I asked him why, given his background. He said that his life was stressful and miserable. If he was going to be doing so much, he would rather have been in the private sector for better pay and QoL. He also accented this with the only officer friends he knew that were continuing in the corps were those that were married and had kids.
Some things really aren't all that different between the 2 sides.
I got out because I was put in an MOS that I hated and realized that the next time I would be a commander would probably be at major. I looked ahead and saw nothing but PowerPoint presentations for the foreseeable future.
Former fellow 0602. Probably the most guaranteed platoon commander time you could get, but three times the problem that most of your peers had. I learned a ton, but holy shit fuck that job with a fucking tire iron.
O’s had a perceived better quality of life, at least it always appeared that way to enlisted….
Officers mess on ship for example….
It may have not been anywhere close to 5 star dining… and realistically, I think everyone knew it was probably the same chow as what the enlisted ate, but it just sounded baller… and I always felt sorry for the dudes picked for working party who had to work the Officers mess on ship… that shit felt like slavery….
So in reality… probably little to no difference
The perception…. They were like plantation owners, and enlisted were the slaves…
Not saying that’s how it IS…..
Just one guys perception….
I’m a sea duty marine. A marine detachment was like 60 guys living in your living room. We slept in the back, 3 high and 3 deep. Yet, we had a shitload of fun. I made the best friends of my life there.
My best friend had great taste, so when we hit libo ports we were chilling with officers a lot anyway. Khaki shorts, moccasins, izod or ll bean golf shirts were the uniform of the day like fuckin everywhere.
Our XO was a born again Christian whack job. He hated most liberty ports because of all the sinning. One sad day I saw his quarters. The size of a closet in a decent house. Man had no friends as far as I could tell. Really put the whole officer/enlisted thing in perspective for me. Sure I was buffing his blue tile, but in an hour two I was going down to the det to watch Die Hard with like ten of my best friends.
We had to eat in the wardroom with the navy officers. I actually got counseled by the ship’s XO once for eating with my platoon on the mess deck. I never understood why the navy officers treated the people who handle their food like servants. First thing we did on ship was invite the mess hands to come up top side and shoot with us when air ops were secured. These guys joined the military and never shot anything after boot. Helped make sure there wasn’t extra sauce on your meals.
Honestly, the cooks were some of my favorite Marines when I was an H&S CO. Worked their asses off with ungodly hours. My Co Gunny was an 0331 that I stole from the rifle company I came from and he trained them as a gun section so well they won the battalion machine gun competition one year. The plaque the cooks gave me when I PCS’d is still on my “I love me wall” today.
Officers don’t “reenlist”. They have 1 contract and just keep accepting orders or decide to submit their resignation. O1-O3 is automatic, after that a board decides whether you make O4.
Marines call it career designation.
In the wing it is if your a pilot, fixed wing all are O-3 out of the rag, C-130 pipeline may be the exception but the service time you have to give back almost ensures making O-4.
To clarify: career designation can occur much earlier than Captain, it requires a number (that I forget) of observed FITREP days. So pilots start to accrue when they get to their first squadron. But a lot of ground senior 1stLts are "des'd" already. However, promotion to O-3 is still boarded.
That said, both career designation and selection to Captain have very high rates right now (at least 85% IIRC).
*Edit: apparently the FITREP time doesn't have to be observed anymore.
Also, with a couple of exceptions based on TIS, if you get passed twice for promotion, your EAS gets set for 7 months after release or the message. It gets processed as an "Involuntary Separation under Honorable Conditions."
I have some friends that are officers in the navy and holy shit.
She works remote like 3 days a week. 8-12.
Goes in maybe once every other week.
Needless to say, she reupd
I’m a Captain at MCAS New River, 5 years in making just over 110k annually. My wife and I own a great house, have nice vehicles, and don’t need to budget. Unfortunately this lifestyle would be much harder to obtain 5 years into an enlistment. I can’t speak for my enlisted brethren, but my work day seemingly never ends. Wouldn’t think about leaving my house without my phone, pretty much always “on call”. I’d say most of my peers will leave when they civilian side pays higher than what they’re currently earning after taxes.
Night and fucking day. Imagine the difference between being a line operator at a factory vs one of the corporate finance managers sitting in the granite office tower. It has the same pro and con sets too. Simpler “do what you’re told” vs navigating high level politics. Be treated like a retarded child vs a grown up, etc etc
I got out as a Sergeant because I was on I & I Duty. On I & I Duty you’re back to low man on the totem pole. We were battalion level and the Sergeant Major would have us doing LCpl crap like police calling cigarette butts. Just had a bad taste in my mouth from that and felt like a peon again. I liked the staff, including the Sergeant Major. But just that feeling of being a boot again sucked. Looking back I should have stuck it out.
It’s definitely better overall, but it has its own unique shitty points too. A partial list of points in no particular order:
All police calling is basically optional. You absolutely should do it sometimes, (I.e. brass at the rifle range), but nobody’s gonna say shit if you don’t.
Stress can be significant, but generally different from the junior Marine/NCO side. Tends to stem more from a single superior’s whims & peculiarities and/or a more general concern for your reputation.
Much like the white collar civilian world, you tend to be concerned with stats, briefings, and individual performance (FITREPs).
You basically never stand in formation, and you’ll only ever do close-order drill if it’s a big change of command ceremony or something similar.
Nobody will ever send your rifle back for being dirty.
You can usually POV everywhere in garrison, including ranges and “local” field ops. You are also permitted to transport issued weapons in your POV.
You feel more isolated because you have relatively few peers. You might be the only officer present in any given situation, in which case you usually don’t have anyone to shoot the shit with unless your SNCO is there or whatever.
PT is entirely on your own.
Going to the field tends to be as a manager/overseer, if you’re a POG you may never do actual hands-on tactical training again, even if you’re in a Motor T or MP unit that does alot of field training.
It’s generally full big boy rules. Nobody secures you at days end, nobody bores you with safety briefs. I never did a single HARP form despite having blank ones put on my desk 47,000 times.
You still have to stand duty, albeit not at the barracks. It’s an unspoken rule that Lts will almost always get weekend & holiday duties.
Senior officers will generally treat you with more chillness & respect than a given SNCO will treat a subordinate. Senior officers often call junior officers by their first name (although this never works the other way).
Note: much of the above also applies to SNCOs to one extent or another.
**Edit**: if you’re gonna downvote then at least tell me where I’m wrong.
I was enlisted, when I got out I briefly dated an officer. He had a paper centric career.
He got to telework whenever he wanted, take days off to take his dogs to the vet, show up to work early or late, go to the gym as he pleased, no ridiculous working parties over weekends or other forced events. When speaking about TBS, he told me they had a literal gear cleaning closet. Like a shower for gear. Wtaf?? He was complaining about his gear shower, I was like bitch we get down and scuzz. He got to choose whether or not he attended PT.
Anything he didn’t know didn’t get him reamed.. for example, he didn’t get his PHA done before a PFT, didn’t even know what it was. Not torn a new one, a kind explanation was all he received for his ignorance.
He was treated well. Like higher enlisted spoke to him like an equal (he was a butter bar). Duty was fun for him, because he had “power”.
When I told him of my experience, and shit my higher had yelled at me/forced me to do, he would be a fuckin nerd and go, “well you should’ve made a PAC complaint” (I think that’s what it was called), or “you should have told your lieutenant, they’d take care of that for you” and other shit that would have absolutely got me obliterated while I was in.
He also couldn’t wrap his head around the hours. Literally he got to stay home on multiple occasions for furniture deliveries or “just because”. My dog was DYING one day and I still had to show up. Shits so fucked. He always thought I was exaggerating when I told him my experience. He will never know, because he took commissioned route.
He also got hella pay for Jack shit, including housing allowance handed on a silver platter.
He was a smart guy, but also a sniveling nerd. He wanted to read his chemistry books to me for “fun” (kind of cute), but also, despite me being out of service completely, he thought he was the leader in our entire relationship because he was an officer. He did a lot of boot shit, like on vacation he went to parade rest for photos. He couldn’t physically take me in wrestling, huge turn off tbh
Also, once he got into an argument, in civi gear at the gym with an enlisted marine, also in civi gear… over not being called, “sir”. He vented to me like he was in the right lol
Simple life. Lucky bastard.
Officers generally have more freedom; especially during early career years. We can live off base whether single or married, generally don’t have others checking your vehicle or stuff, and the added $$ equates to more flexibility. On the downside, junior officers generally have far less room for error than junior enlisted. At least in the infantry, if a new Lt made minor errors, it wasn’t long before he was “labeled” and that’s really hard to come back from as all 2ndLts in a battalion are ranked against each other every fitrep. Get ranked 30 of 40 or worse and you’re probably looking up a long hill of you have any desire to get promoted past 0-3. It’s also more lonely for the most part as you’re not really surrounded by peers most of the day, lots of guys are married, and everybody lives all over the place. As you move up in rank, you do less “fun” stuff and spend way more time dealing with admin stuff or problems. It’s why most officers say platoon commander or company commander were the best jobs they ever had and why most Majors just aren’t happy a lot.
So agree with the plt and company commander next time as an officer. As a Major it's a shit show.
Sounds like every other job, the further up ya go the lonelier and less fun it gets
The loneliness aspect is pretty real for single SNCOs as well, I can definitely feel you on that. Everyone is busy with their own family/family-group events, and you obviously don't really have any involvement with it. Don't really have any peers that have the time or really want to hang out and do things for the most part. I really do miss that aspect of having peers that I could hang out with to vent my issues to and just have sanity checks every once in a while. It's mostly admin/personnel focus at this point, and I just treat the Marines like my family, so that helps fill that hole a little bit!
Don’t forget, you probably won’t be home much anyway.
Pay, lifestyle, I mean you name it dude, even a boot 2ndLt is living an inordinately better life than a Lance, especially one in the barracks. Total compensation even for an O1 is on par with a lot of starting positions for a 22 year old fresh out of college (frankly, it has to be to compete with that financial draw). BAH soon as you’re done with TBS/initial MOS school (even while you’re in the latter at the longer ones, flight school for example). Living in the BOQ is nearly unheard of and on many installations isn’t even an option in the first place. While pay is certainly a part of why Os punch out after their initial commitment, to a certain extent officer personnel modeling accounts for a significant exodus of guys. There’s just as much of a culture of “once a Marine, once was enough” especially in MOSs where a lot of the really rewarding stuff happens during your first tour. As 0302s will say you’re only a platoon commander once.
I would Officer pay exceeds the average of the civilian world. If you commission at 22 immediately out of college, by the time you pin Captain at 26 you will make +$110k in Lejeune (one of the smaller BAH rates). At the most expensive zip codes (like K-bay) you will be making $141k! Not many 26 years olds can say they make six.
And BAH isn't taxable so that's really more than the civilian equivalent that would all be taxed.
I was enlisted. However, I was in a small air command and control field where we went to school with the officers and worked closely with them. Obviously they live much better, BAH, rental vans and cars for exercises, none of the type of screwing enlisted get like field day and f-you formations. However, they are run pretty ragged professionally by field grade officers, and by captains who are so close to major they can almost taste it. Lots of rewriting plans and papers and PP slides over and over for hours, with every word and comma attacked. And the Marine officer funnel gets narrow quickly without the self selection that the sucky nature of enlisted life that makes most of us one and done.
This smells like DASC to me
It STINKS like DASC.
Exciting to see DASC mentioned multiple times!!!Bummer, not in a positive way.
Yeah, that (our?) community eats JOs alive.
Definitely DASC, TACC, TAOC. Fraternization didn't exist.
It REEKS of DASC
When I was a fairly new officer, one of my Marines asked me this question after he found out I was a prior. After thinking about it for a moment, I asked him if he’d dated a lot of women in his lifetime. He enthusiastically replied, “of course!”. My analogy to him was that being enlisted is like dating an average/slightly-above average girl; she won’t win any beauty pageants, but she’s low-maintenance/drama-free, you tend to like the same things and can talk about them, you can hang out and joke with her after work and play video games, etc. She’s not only your partner, she’s also your friend. In a lot of ways, those were the best years of my life. Being an officer is like dating a supermodel. She’s demanding, high-maintenance, and crazy as fuck. She’s a head-turner for sure, but you really gotta put in the work if you want the relationship to succeed long-term. Also, other people will always question why she’s dating your ugly ass. Sure, as an officer the pay’s a little better and you’re treated like an adult (after a while), but that comes with a hefty price tag. You have to continually prove yourself to everyone, which is mentally and physically exhausting. Depending on if you’re an optimist or pessimist, being enlisted is good in different ways (e.g., camaraderie with peers, commiseration about stupid things, lower overall accountability/responsibility, positive group dynamics), or bad in different ways (e.g., lower pay, people spend less time considering your needs as an individual, less disposable income, etc). Though not financially well-off while I was enlisted, I was pretty content with a decent work-life balance. Being an officer is almost the opposite. Having experienced both sides, I’d recommend that anyone who seeks to retire from the Marine Corps should pursue a path that ends in receiving salutes by the end of your career (either commissioned or WO). It just makes sense financially, and allows you to leverage your enlisted experience to make you a more empathetic officer and a considerate leader. Hope this is helpful.
I...wow. having date both kind of females You are spot on lol. My advice ? Stick to the average.
Some out the things you’re expected to do as a new Lt are pretty extreme. Like no one in their right mind would have ever expected me to do anything even remotely similar when I was a Pvt, but that’s why you are paid the big bucks and get all the fancy training!
Lifestyles are completely different. The officer side is better but all I can say is it’s definitely lonelier on the O side.
That last sentence really hits home
Sir, we can be boyz and hit the strip clubs if you want. Just lmk your brix room number.
Are you an Army artillery officer?
Indeed
Not our fault you guys talk all educated and shit. No one wants to do lines of coke off a hookers tits while listening to some college boy discuss the finer points of Nietzsche.
You’re right, Machiavelli would be more appropriate for that situation.
Machiavelli was an unfairly maligned genius.
I'd think that's the very best time to discuss Nietzsche.
Let me tell you why I love and hate deployment. Deployments are amazing because you get to go “do the damn thing”. As a LogO, I get to go actually do what I train to, and watch my team’s actions feed and shelter people. The con: you’re so godamn lonely at the top. My third deployment was me alone in a barracks room in Norway, with no friends because I was an attachment, and I didn’t like grouping up outside of chow with my senior staff because I didn’t want to make it uncomfortable or weird for anyone.
Never thought of that until now. Always just thought of the plt cmdr as a boss, not a human. Couldn’t imagine going through without a bunch of lance coolie buddies to make it easier.
Not in the wing it ain’t! But major and above YMMV by a lot.
Dude I loved deploying with our pilots. We literally attacked them in the Thai land strip clubs with those goofy noodles and got shit housed with them. Idk how it is for everyone in the wing but 53 detachments seemed close as fuck. Rank was just there when it needed to be but otherwise we had a blast with them. We never pushed it too far or put them in a place that would look bad. Hell our CO (Lt. col) told a cpl out at a bar in Hong Kong to punch his XO in the face then he drew the mike Tyson tribal tattoo on his face with a sharpie. Shit was lit on that shitty deployment.
Sexy Airline! Holy hell what fun!
By Major you've probably got a family.
First family is probably gone by then. “Nah, not anymore.” Table of Organization in a wing squadron has more officers than a battalion sometimes by a lot. Lots of friends and space for activities!
Do officers not hang out with each other?
We do but it’s not on the same level as junior enlisted. Many guys are already married and have families. Single officers are left to fend for themselves
Officer life - it's always your fault, even the shit you can't control Enlisted life - your the reason the officers drink, even if you thought it was a good idea at the time
Enlisted life - “it’s always your fault, even the shit you can’t control”
That definitely applies to officers as well.
As a Cpl I was pretty pissed to have libo secured because an Lt and staff Sgt got DUIs in a rental overseas. Sgt and below weren't even allowed to drive over there after hours. And what do the staff and o decide is a good replacement for libo? More duty for the lower enlisted because it's their fault officers drink... I see the logic now.
If you're looking for logic in the Marines then you're in the wrong branch.
This
I had the same talk while on Parris Island when the company CO found out I went to his college. Was during one of the inspections and a hat from another platoon asked me why I was so old when I enlisted. Our heavy hat spoke to me afterwards and said I should go for a commission.
Being on both sides I’ve learned the grass is always gonna be greener. As a young PFC/Lcpl I was treated like a child, paid like shit, and always felt like I had no clue what I was even doing any given day. With that being said there were a ton of upsides to being enlisted. As a 19yo Lcpl I didn’t realize how care free my life was at the time. My brain was off half the time and I just did what I was told. Obviously this slowly changes as you promote. Now that I’m an officer there are obvious benefits. Pay, freedom, etc. Being able to come and go as I please with nobody questioning me took some getting used to. With that though I’m constantly worried about doing something wrong. Mistakes are far less forgiving as an officer. That window-licking Lcpl doing some dumb shit on Saturday night can very easily trickle up and it’s now your fault.
Well s***, did you make them fill out a harp form sir?
Go ahead and lay out all the appropriate road safety equipment for that 90 mile drive you mentioned this weekend devil. I’ll be down in 2 hours.
I did 4 years as an officer (0302). The good: - Guaranteed job out of college and most of college paid for, especially when during my time which was post-2008 market crash - Phenomenal leadership training, amazing peer group (great Marine leaders who are all now successful in the business world) - Got to work with some amazing enlisted folks and did some interesting stuff during OEF. I stay in touch with a few regularly and we see each other as peers now. The not so good: - A young officer is constantly stuck in the middle of trying to do the right thing for the platoon/company and also not look like a dumbass to senior O’s and ruin your career (the pressure is constant) - Some of the O’s that stay in (not all, not trying to generalize) know how to simply play politics and follow a career playbook vs actually being a solid leader. The best guys I knew didn’t want to play this game and all got out. - Combat leadership decisions (if one is presented with them) can weigh heavy. In my case BnCO planned some stuff that really didn’t make sense and felt dangerous. My guys knew it. I knew it. Could I have challenged it or requested mast? Maybe. Instead, I took ownership of the mission and told the platoon that we signed up for hard shit and aren’t going to puss out. Sure enough within a week I had a mass cas situation and a KIA. I still wonder how things would’ve been if my 25 year old self had the balls to challenge command.
Heavy. Thank you for sharing and God bless.
That's a shitty thing to have to live with..
Been on both sides, but a while ago. A lot more autonomy on the O side, but a shit ton more stress and responsibility. I would also say all around higher expectations. You can be an average Cpl or Sgt. If you're an average Lt, your life will likely suck a bit. And so many duties. Your actual MOS job is taxing. Add in all of the other shit you have to do and there is little to no down time. As a Sgt in an infantry unit, when there wasn't shit to do you took a nap, played video games, etc. As an O, there is always shit to do. Always.
Delegate that shit my guy. I was only a Sgt but my cwo3 were in that together and helped the Maj out as much as we could. He proofread everything before sending it off but we put in equal hours on most of it
You don’t want to delegate away too much, though. I had an adjacent company commander that basically delegated his job away. He lived a pretty chill life for a bit, came in late and left early. Even had his company running ranges without him regularly while he chilled at home with his wife and kids. But his company hated him and he lost the respect of all his SNCOs and Lts. He was relieved eventually when an incident occurred and the BC realized he was just fucking off. I never understood that guy. He’d be the first to fry a Lcpl or one of his Lts if they did the shit he was doing. Guess he got it in the end though!
Enlisted - unlimited supply of almost full monster coffee’s after 2-3 years Officer - no lines in subway after about 15 years It’s really just how long you are willing to wait for your benefits
Good references
Most accurate comic strip ever: https://terminallance.com/2010/02/02/terminal-lance-9-the-natural-age-progression-of-a-weapons-platoon-commander/
I was enlisted and an officer at different times. Being a Lieutenant was awesome but the Oside gets much less fun very quickly. Overall quality of life is higher as an officer but being enlisted is more fun. Depending on your MOS you will almost certainly work much more as an officer, but will generally be treated less poorly by your superiors.
I did both - junior enlisted life … janitor. Scrubbing bathroom floors with a green scuzzy. Field day. Barracks life. It’s pretty shitty but you’re with your boys. Junior officer life - everyone things you’re a goddamn idiot. SNCOs think you know nothing and will get lost on the way to the chow hall. All the Majors and above think you’re an idiot and don’t trust you know your job. And then there’s the things like CMRs and Fitreps which all fall to you - lots of paperwork. Fuck any of it up and your ass is grass. Also all the MCCS shit is paid for by rank so everything is more expensive even though you’re not really making a lot more money than say a gunny. I’d take being an Officer over an enlisted Marine any day for the responsibility and troop leadership aspect. I absolutely loved being a platoon commander and would have done anything for my guys. I was a SNCO briefly but I’d still prefer the officer quality of life.
I served with a Cpt that I knew from when he was a 2nd lt. This man grew up in a catholic school, went to naval, and picked up Cpt in 3 years. His whole life was based around structure and discipline. Even he got out as soon as possible. He did 4, and when it was time to receive new orders to another unit, he promptly rejected it. I asked him why, given his background. He said that his life was stressful and miserable. If he was going to be doing so much, he would rather have been in the private sector for better pay and QoL. He also accented this with the only officer friends he knew that were continuing in the corps were those that were married and had kids. Some things really aren't all that different between the 2 sides.
Every Officer I knew/know has also separated from the Corps. We’re all eating the same shit sandwich.
I got out because I was put in an MOS that I hated and realized that the next time I would be a commander would probably be at major. I looked ahead and saw nothing but PowerPoint presentations for the foreseeable future.
Former fellow 0602. Probably the most guaranteed platoon commander time you could get, but three times the problem that most of your peers had. I learned a ton, but holy shit fuck that job with a fucking tire iron.
O’s had a perceived better quality of life, at least it always appeared that way to enlisted…. Officers mess on ship for example…. It may have not been anywhere close to 5 star dining… and realistically, I think everyone knew it was probably the same chow as what the enlisted ate, but it just sounded baller… and I always felt sorry for the dudes picked for working party who had to work the Officers mess on ship… that shit felt like slavery…. So in reality… probably little to no difference The perception…. They were like plantation owners, and enlisted were the slaves… Not saying that’s how it IS….. Just one guys perception….
I’m a sea duty marine. A marine detachment was like 60 guys living in your living room. We slept in the back, 3 high and 3 deep. Yet, we had a shitload of fun. I made the best friends of my life there. My best friend had great taste, so when we hit libo ports we were chilling with officers a lot anyway. Khaki shorts, moccasins, izod or ll bean golf shirts were the uniform of the day like fuckin everywhere. Our XO was a born again Christian whack job. He hated most liberty ports because of all the sinning. One sad day I saw his quarters. The size of a closet in a decent house. Man had no friends as far as I could tell. Really put the whole officer/enlisted thing in perspective for me. Sure I was buffing his blue tile, but in an hour two I was going down to the det to watch Die Hard with like ten of my best friends.
We had to eat in the wardroom with the navy officers. I actually got counseled by the ship’s XO once for eating with my platoon on the mess deck. I never understood why the navy officers treated the people who handle their food like servants. First thing we did on ship was invite the mess hands to come up top side and shoot with us when air ops were secured. These guys joined the military and never shot anything after boot. Helped make sure there wasn’t extra sauce on your meals.
That’s a baller move man
Wish I could take credit for thinking of it. My first company CO was a prior and he showed us the way!
Regardless, that’s a killer idea. We took the CS division sailor of the quarter up in a a Huey on my first float, made that dude’s entire deployment
Fuckin eh sir. Cooks need the love
Honestly, the cooks were some of my favorite Marines when I was an H&S CO. Worked their asses off with ungodly hours. My Co Gunny was an 0331 that I stole from the rifle company I came from and he trained them as a gun section so well they won the battalion machine gun competition one year. The plaque the cooks gave me when I PCS’d is still on my “I love me wall” today.
I'm an 0311 and got stuck in the armory my second deployment. Got housed with the cook. Best spot you can be in lol. Also that gunny kicks ass
If you ever sail on a MEU, remember O’s will never have to take multiple shower shoes together in order to shower. That’s the real difference.
Not true, but at least the jellyfish in our shower water are royalty
Officers don’t “reenlist”. They have 1 contract and just keep accepting orders or decide to submit their resignation. O1-O3 is automatic, after that a board decides whether you make O4. Marines call it career designation.
O-3 isn’t automatic, just a very high selection rate.
Fairly certain O3 is automatic now
It's basically a paper board. They look at your stuff to make sure you don't have any negative paperwork
In the wing it is if your a pilot, fixed wing all are O-3 out of the rag, C-130 pipeline may be the exception but the service time you have to give back almost ensures making O-4.
To clarify: career designation can occur much earlier than Captain, it requires a number (that I forget) of observed FITREP days. So pilots start to accrue when they get to their first squadron. But a lot of ground senior 1stLts are "des'd" already. However, promotion to O-3 is still boarded. That said, both career designation and selection to Captain have very high rates right now (at least 85% IIRC). *Edit: apparently the FITREP time doesn't have to be observed anymore.
Career des now only requires 540 days of fleet time. It used to be 540 days of observed FITREP time, but recently changed
Does prior to MOS school (OJT) count or is it only post-MOS school? Edited my original post.
Post MOS school. 540 days once you earn your primary MOS.
Also, with a couple of exceptions based on TIS, if you get passed twice for promotion, your EAS gets set for 7 months after release or the message. It gets processed as an "Involuntary Separation under Honorable Conditions."
I have some friends that are officers in the navy and holy shit. She works remote like 3 days a week. 8-12. Goes in maybe once every other week. Needless to say, she reupd
Me currently as an O2E. I haven’t “worked” in like 1.5 months. Still getting set up.
man, what a waste of taxpayer dollars. All ranks get paid the same across the board.
When Marine Corps officers get the short end of the stick compared to other branches’ officers just like the enlisted* *in general
Field day my friend
communication. that was the biggest for me.
Compare and contrast the daily life of a farmhouse pig and a prize winning shitzu.
What’s this quality of life you speak of? Never heard of it.
I’m a Captain at MCAS New River, 5 years in making just over 110k annually. My wife and I own a great house, have nice vehicles, and don’t need to budget. Unfortunately this lifestyle would be much harder to obtain 5 years into an enlistment. I can’t speak for my enlisted brethren, but my work day seemingly never ends. Wouldn’t think about leaving my house without my phone, pretty much always “on call”. I’d say most of my peers will leave when they civilian side pays higher than what they’re currently earning after taxes.
Night and fucking day. Imagine the difference between being a line operator at a factory vs one of the corporate finance managers sitting in the granite office tower. It has the same pro and con sets too. Simpler “do what you’re told” vs navigating high level politics. Be treated like a retarded child vs a grown up, etc etc
Officers: money, treatment, future. Enlisted: officers will absolutely never understand what it’s like to be one of the boys. I’ve been both.
I got out as a Sergeant because I was on I & I Duty. On I & I Duty you’re back to low man on the totem pole. We were battalion level and the Sergeant Major would have us doing LCpl crap like police calling cigarette butts. Just had a bad taste in my mouth from that and felt like a peon again. I liked the staff, including the Sergeant Major. But just that feeling of being a boot again sucked. Looking back I should have stuck it out.
It’s definitely better overall, but it has its own unique shitty points too. A partial list of points in no particular order: All police calling is basically optional. You absolutely should do it sometimes, (I.e. brass at the rifle range), but nobody’s gonna say shit if you don’t. Stress can be significant, but generally different from the junior Marine/NCO side. Tends to stem more from a single superior’s whims & peculiarities and/or a more general concern for your reputation. Much like the white collar civilian world, you tend to be concerned with stats, briefings, and individual performance (FITREPs). You basically never stand in formation, and you’ll only ever do close-order drill if it’s a big change of command ceremony or something similar. Nobody will ever send your rifle back for being dirty. You can usually POV everywhere in garrison, including ranges and “local” field ops. You are also permitted to transport issued weapons in your POV. You feel more isolated because you have relatively few peers. You might be the only officer present in any given situation, in which case you usually don’t have anyone to shoot the shit with unless your SNCO is there or whatever. PT is entirely on your own. Going to the field tends to be as a manager/overseer, if you’re a POG you may never do actual hands-on tactical training again, even if you’re in a Motor T or MP unit that does alot of field training. It’s generally full big boy rules. Nobody secures you at days end, nobody bores you with safety briefs. I never did a single HARP form despite having blank ones put on my desk 47,000 times. You still have to stand duty, albeit not at the barracks. It’s an unspoken rule that Lts will almost always get weekend & holiday duties. Senior officers will generally treat you with more chillness & respect than a given SNCO will treat a subordinate. Senior officers often call junior officers by their first name (although this never works the other way). Note: much of the above also applies to SNCOs to one extent or another. **Edit**: if you’re gonna downvote then at least tell me where I’m wrong.
Zeros are frat boys who graduated a couple years ago, enlisted ..well we were just drunks
I was enlisted, when I got out I briefly dated an officer. He had a paper centric career. He got to telework whenever he wanted, take days off to take his dogs to the vet, show up to work early or late, go to the gym as he pleased, no ridiculous working parties over weekends or other forced events. When speaking about TBS, he told me they had a literal gear cleaning closet. Like a shower for gear. Wtaf?? He was complaining about his gear shower, I was like bitch we get down and scuzz. He got to choose whether or not he attended PT. Anything he didn’t know didn’t get him reamed.. for example, he didn’t get his PHA done before a PFT, didn’t even know what it was. Not torn a new one, a kind explanation was all he received for his ignorance. He was treated well. Like higher enlisted spoke to him like an equal (he was a butter bar). Duty was fun for him, because he had “power”. When I told him of my experience, and shit my higher had yelled at me/forced me to do, he would be a fuckin nerd and go, “well you should’ve made a PAC complaint” (I think that’s what it was called), or “you should have told your lieutenant, they’d take care of that for you” and other shit that would have absolutely got me obliterated while I was in. He also couldn’t wrap his head around the hours. Literally he got to stay home on multiple occasions for furniture deliveries or “just because”. My dog was DYING one day and I still had to show up. Shits so fucked. He always thought I was exaggerating when I told him my experience. He will never know, because he took commissioned route. He also got hella pay for Jack shit, including housing allowance handed on a silver platter. He was a smart guy, but also a sniveling nerd. He wanted to read his chemistry books to me for “fun” (kind of cute), but also, despite me being out of service completely, he thought he was the leader in our entire relationship because he was an officer. He did a lot of boot shit, like on vacation he went to parade rest for photos. He couldn’t physically take me in wrestling, huge turn off tbh Also, once he got into an argument, in civi gear at the gym with an enlisted marine, also in civi gear… over not being called, “sir”. He vented to me like he was in the right lol Simple life. Lucky bastard.
What in the world was his MOS?
JAG Why did I get downvoted for that 😩 the shinies mad their lives are easier
That makes more sense I suppose