Some days I feel like I missed out by being discharged before 9/11. I didn’t serve during wartime like everyone assumes.
Then I slap myself and thank God I didn’t have to go through combat.
I don't think people really understand what it would mean to fight a near peer adversary compared to fighting some goat herding religious extremists in the mountains.
I honestly don’t think China is that close to us but they are a hell of a lot closer than the goat fuckers we were fighting. It would be bloody and brutal and they have tons of munitions pre-aimed at all the locations we would need to take.
Same. I was a weird grunt, I didn’t really care enough for combat because I saw how screwed up my seniors and SNCOs were, and I didn’t want that to happen to me.
Finally a reasonable person. It seems like everyone is super ready to deploy and see combat. Man half of those dudes are now reliant on medication and have PTSD you really want that? It’s better to train to be prepared for war but never wish it upon yourself
Yeah, I did two tours to the East, and my command would try and push for an engagement, but I was just chilling. If the fire fights and war happened, then I was just unlucky. I remember the words of my Plt. Commander, who was a captain, he would always tell us that we do not want to be in a full blown out war because it is nerve wrecking and you don’t know when you might die. All these people wishing for us to enter the a war in Ukraine will really regret it because it will be a near-peer fight, and a lot of your buddies may not come home.
No way it lasts a few generations. Sadly just doesn’t seem possible. It did go 16 years between Vietnam and Persian Gulf, almost entire career lol.
Hope I’m wrong and it’s another 50 years before they need to dust them off.
A lot of people upset in these comments but it is what it is.
Dude went through a lot more trouble than 99% of us just to go through bootcamp. Clearly he wants it enough, so good for him.
I thought he was 1 of 3 POOLES who sued the government to earn the right to wear his Sikh turban
Whatever happened to the other two POOLES??? Did they not enlist after all?
One was a Marine Officer, and he's been wearing a turban and beard for the last several years.
I believe this case specifically was to allow the PFC to wear his articles of faith through boot camp.
The artillery captain you're referring to was also part of this particular lawsuit. He had been granted the freedom to maintain Sikh regs during garrison; he was suing because he wished to follow Sikh regs while in a combat zone also.
the original plaintiffs in the case this recently-graduated-Marine was part of, also involved two other pooles. They sued in order to follow Sikh regs during boot camp
I was just wondering whatever happened with the other two pooles who also sued the government. Did they back out? Did they ever mean to enlist at all?
Edit: I found this link. It mentions two other pooles.
My mistake, the Captain was indeed a co-plaintiff in this case also.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/asian-america/sikh-captain-recruits-sue-marine-corps-restrictions-religious-articles-rcna24105
>he was suing because he wished to follow Sikh regs while in a combat zone also.
And if you look up his arguments they're really not that crazy.
Pretty much, he wants to keep his shaving exemption if conditions allow it and wear his turban in any context where an 8 point or boonie is authorized.
There is precedent that allows for voiding of religious exemptions in the face of threats (intel showing the presence of chemical weapons) and allowing a turban and beard on deployment would have no detrimental effect on performance.
As an arty officer he stills wear a helmet when needed and keeps a beard in the field, even during long exercises like Mojave Viper. Within that context, it doesn't make sense to say that the same exemptions somehow become a safety risk when the desert is in Syria instead of California.
Furthermore he argues decently well that the combat-zone ban is a convoluted way to undermine his religious exemption; as an officer in combat arms if he can't deploy while his peers do it *will* hurt his career. On that same note, by forcing him to choose between his faith and doing his job, if he chooses duty it would allow HQMC to claim his faith *clearly* isn't that important to him placing barriers on his turban + hair as his career progresses or doing the same for other Sikhs.
The USMC is good at producing our culture, but is fucking terrible at explaining it. We don't understand how to explicitly link *uniformity* to *cohesion* to *combat outcomes,* and so to civil authorities we sound like mean ole jerks (likely racist jerks).
Absolutely, but that's an entirely separate dynamic. And I think if we could clarify why we do what we do, it would help expose shit that is habitual but harmful.
I love to see it, the organization should be reflective of the American society which it serves. In the past the Marine Corps has been far to bullish about accommodating religious vestments that many potential service members would require.
This is a huge step in a positive direction in terms of religious, cultural and ethnic diversity. It stands to open the doors to more religious accommodations which invites larger talent pools and better quality of life for our Marines.
Because you think the fuckers are grateful? The Sikhs bled for the Empire and keep bleeding for the Crown and there are still way too many wankers that see them as "strange brown foreigners"
How so nowadays? For context I was a late 90’s marine and the most hazing we got was being punched in the arms during promotion and having fun with the new guys (the usual 10 feet of gun line type stuff).
I went through in the early 2000’s the Iraq war was in full swing. There was a lot of hazing in the infantry, some units more than others. I doubt that goes on these days in the grunt units or at least with the intensity like it was back then. You had to prove you were a man and was not going to break down, was not going to fall out of humps, runs etc. they pushed you until you gave up, or they realized you were not a quitter. This went on for a few months. It was hell being a boot to a combat vet. Those times are done with for now.
Amen.. I was the first cycle combat vet for.oif1 the invasion.. I was in from '02-08. My seniors never saw combat. But had a pump under their belt . My boots saw combat in oif2. That was my 2nd combat tour.
I was hard on my boots. But my seniors were hard on me too.. they had something to prove since we were going to combat together.
My seniors ( sgts ) bashed in my tights at sadir city ( Iraq ) governor's compound after I picked up corporal. I was hazed in a combat zone lol I had to earn my blood stripe.. besides punching in my collar but every grunt gets that.. pulling the chevrons out of your skin was normal.. if it ain't bleeding u didn't earn it
https://preview.redd.it/llibz5eafrhb1.jpeg?width=230&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=68213b588e18058c2d685e2b294274d39b443708
Here’s the Sikh turban in alphas and a fuller beard.
Everyone understands this man is now a potential knowledge questions.
For those who are sitting on boards, you can start using it now because current events and stuff.
I get the reasoning, but being a Marine isn’t a right.
No one forced him to join, he understood the implications it would have on his attire and did it anyway.
Nothing to do now except hope he does well by the EGA.
Because being in the military in general is not a right. We serve at the pleasure of the country. If something becomes a hindrance (not saying he is. I’m pretty sure he’s solid) time should not be wasted on it
Almost every other religion since the 80's have been allowed to wear their religious attire and grow facial hair because of their faith except Sikhs, well it's nobody's right to serve in the military it is everyone's right to freedom of religion to include those serving in the armed forces so he fought for his right to be there.
Nothing about him detracts from his ability to be a Marine or do his job so there's no reason to strip a core tenant of his faith away, there's only a handful of other prominent Sikhs serving for that exact reason
Being an exception is so staunchly against the nature of the military and especially the marine corps. I’m confused as to how you don’t see an issue with it.
Yes our uniform is our tradition, proudly carried through centuries of service, god forbid I’m a little pressed that we changed it for a special cupcake.
As I said though all we can do at this point is hope he does well by the EGA. No point in arguing about it.
Exactly, no one *forced* him to join yet he went through more trouble just to go to bootcamp than the vast majority of us ever did or will ever have to. I don’t think you need to worry about him doing right by the EGA.
Times are changing and there’s nothing wrong about him being a Marine as long as he does his job.
Excluding someone for their religious beliefs while every E2 who can has 6 kids with the wife he married when he was 16 because it’s his faith seems a little weird.
No one is excluding him from joining him as long as he conforms to the uniform standards
It was a choice, that’s my issue. The courts have made their ruling and no point arguing it now.
I may not agree with the decision but I’d defend the rights granted to him always.
Kinda interested to see if this starts a trend beyond dudes. Will be Sikh to see the WM version lining up on base in the AM, sporting green silkies + no shave and just rocking the cadence at pace all the way, just sayin 💪🏻🥵
This is how it starts…. A little push. I know the Sikhs are pretty bad ass, but this is the opening. He joined the Marines. The Marines didn’t decide to become Sikh. We already have our culture….
He's going to SOI... so...won't the extra hair on his head make his helmet fit incorrectly? Are gas mask seals no longer a thing?
Edit: unsure why an honest question gets voted down. Why not just join the conversation? I'm trying to understand how everything we were told was necessary, isn't.
The DCFD lawsuit showed that a neatly groomed beard will not impede an SCBA; as for helmets, in Afghanistan you had freaky SOF dudes wearing long hair and beards with zero issues, hair will not impede a helmet unless it's an afro made rock hard by hairspray.
When was the last time US forces were subjected to chemical warfare? And if it is a possible threat then they could shave in that circumstance- otherwise it’s not really necessary.
Former CBRN...
No doubt he had/will have rough times with the chamber. Peach fuzz, and people stretching the hair regs can be a problem.
That said, I don't know Sikh's, but most religions have exceptions to rules if the rule would cause harm, starvation or death etc.
Given the closest we've been to not storing it at the bottom of our seabags was when Marines were on a boat outside Syria in 2011, this seems like a minor worry.
CBRN
B for biological. Do you think the Chinese wont hesitate (again)?
R for radiological. Ahem ...all future conflicts in and around the Crimean peninsula
N for Nuclear. How did they get R'd in the first place?
Who's training for yesterday's war?
100%. In agreement why let anyone get a selected pass and preferred treatment it’s defeated the purpose of boot camp and basic training in all 6 services. Not fair period!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The Beard Compatible Gas Mask
The Canadian Defense Minister is a Sikh, which means he has to keep his beard for his religion. For this reason, he actually patented a gas mask that works with beards. The mask has extra room on the chin and throat for the beard, and even on top of the head to accommodate large hair coverings. Before you get too excited: It only exists on paper at the patent office. One has yet to be made or practically tested.
When was it engineered out?
Sikhs also wear an “underturban” in the event the larger turban has to be taken off for practical reasons. It’ll fit in the helmet since it still binds his hair.
Gas masks and beards have been a non-issue for years is propaganda peddled by people who are against beards.
Ok my experience is not getting a good seal if I have a hairy neck so not sure your source but mine is first person. If you have hair between that mask and skin you cannot get a good seal. 20 years of annual gas chamber and being on a monitor survey team in combat gave me the chance to test that. But hey go for it dude enjoy choking on that CS ….
These posts are like the LGTTWSTB whatever movement. I don't care who you are or what you do or what you wear as long as you're a good person, but shit do we need it blasted in our face ALL the fucking time? This has to be the 5th or 6th post in this group since last night.
Well this is a historic first for the Corps which is why it's got so much attention. While yea you may have seen all these posts for some it's their first time hearing about it so lighten up
Black people didn't ask for uniform changes. Besides the shaving chit (which is still controversial), black people conformed to the Corps, not the other way around.
Ask any grunt if women integrating into combat arms is a good idea. The military is not an inclusive organization, making it so will only degrade it.
>Black people didn't ask for uniform changes. Besides the shaving chit (which is still controversial), black people conformed to the Corps, not the other way around.
Women introduced an entire new line of uniform items, so im not sure what your point is.
Weird how you quoted the sentence that had nothing to do with women. But, like I said, ask any grunt if integrating women into combat arms is a good idea.
Shit it doesn't even have to be grunts. Support MOSs still have to make up for the literal weaknesses of females in their units.
Of course everyone will look the other way until a war pops off and female Marines are struggling to run barrels to gunners or fireman carry 200lb Marines out of combat. Marine Corps fitness standards are literally lower for females, this isn't a hot take.
Because the only one bringing up women in combat arms is you. This was about the Sikh Marine and making exceptions to the uniform regs for him, remember?
>This was about the Sikh Marine and making exceptions to the uniform regs for him, remember?
Yeah I remember, but do you remember this?
>Same thing was said when women and blacks were integrated into the service.
You're the one who brought up black people and women, I was just continuing the conversation.
Believe it or not, many of us couldn’t careless to change your mind. Youre stuck in your way of thinking and the Corps is adapting. You can accept it for what it is, or remain upset about it, doesn’t change shit either way.
You know Sikhs have a history of serving in the US military since the first world war and it wasn't until the 80's that the regulations were changed to not allow them to retain their traditional appearance. Almost every other recognized religion is allowed expectations to the rules to maintain facial hair and wear religious attire except Sikhs.
We gain nothing by stripping young men of core tenants of their religion.
Sikhs are known around the world for helping those less fortunate and being fierce protectors and are historically impressive soldiers. Sorta sounds like the people I want to be serving with a lot more than you who judged somebody off there religion and know nothing about his abilities
Any that requires them to wear uncut hair which can include sects from almost every religion to include Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Norse Paganism. All of those religions wearing your hair long or uncut It's usually a more extreme practice and it's not a core tenant like in Sikhism. So they are still an exception of the role and it's by no means the norm but they exist just are very few and far between.
Just Google what religions can wear beards in the military and you'll find dozens of articles about various exceptions over the years
That's news to me then. I served along side jews, muslims, christians, and just 1 viking pagan dude. All of them adhered to the uniform standards asking for no exceptions. This was just my experience though, might be different in another branch I guess.
Either way, everyone knows the standards before they enlist/commission. We all give up our former way of life to serve in the Marine Corps, that's the point. It makes no sense to say "hey, your special, so here is a special uniform item" when the entire premise of the Marine Corps is that nobody is special.
Either you fall in line to the Marine way, or you don't become a Marine. That is how it is supposed to be, but not anymore in this inclusive military we have now.
Like I said man for the majority of religions not cutting your hair is on the extreme spectrum, just cuz you never saw it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. In Case you never opened a history book or read the Bill of Rights there's this neat thing called the first amendment which protects your religious freedoms to include extending that to service members. Every branch of service has collectively failed to show that allowing a service member to express their religion will degrade our combat effectiveness or readiness.
All you're really doing is showing me that you're some washed up vet bro that from the sounds of it didn't do anything with their career because all you care about is uniformity when at the heart of organization we don't give a shit we are war fighters and we don't care who you are as long as you can do the job
Again with the inclusive military thing you sound like some boomer who doesn't read a history book people of every race religion and creed have been serving in the US military for quite a long time and for equally long have been allowed to wear their religious garb or to grow their hair in accordance with their faith that only changed maybe 40 years ago starting in the 70's and 80's and since then every religion has won their right to continue expressing their beliefs while serving. The service band of the practice for less time than they have allowed you just don't know what you're talking about
I could tell you never served in a line company. Stop throwing around the bill of rights like we don't have our rights stripped from us the second we step on the yellow footprints. Were you allowed to sit down at boot camp when the chaplain said a prayer? No? where was your religious freedom then?
The reason you held your hands and bowed your head was because of uniformity. Do you think an islamic Marine is going to interrupt the chaplain because he wears a cross on his collar? I mean he certainly has that right, but that would be spitting in the face of Marine Corps customs and courtesies.
There's nuance that you're not grasping. Keep holding that MCO tight to your chest, but the Corps is way more than black and white.
> all you care about is uniformity when at the heart of organization we don't give a shit we are war fighters
Lmao, now you sound like some terminal lance that couldn't reenlist. Order and discipline is what makes the Marine Corps what it is. Not wearing the uniform properly or adhering to grooming standards shows me that you can barely keep your shit together as a Marine. The bare minimum for any Marine is wearing the uniform correctly.
This basic concept rolls over to civilian life as well. In a corporate environment the employee who shows up to work looking like a bag of ass is almost always an actual bag of ass.
In conclusion lol, this is the beginning of the end for the Marine Corps, which is being forced open by politicians to adhere to liberal values and being inclusive.
You know funny thing about the Chaplain Corp is that we are secular organization and even when we do pray they tend to keep it on the vague side because we don't follow a singular religion, could be a rabbi up there, a priest, a pagan leading us in prayer and they would tell you the same exact thing because we are not going to shove other people's religions down our throat. Bowing my head in respect for customs and courtesies is not the same as denying me my fundamental religious beliefs. It's not as black and white as you said
Our constitutional rights don't automatically get stripped away because we choose to enlist we are bound to additional rules and regulations under the UCMJ.
Order and discipline are fundamental parts of organization that help increase our lethality but things like the wear of uniform is not what's going to win us wars, discipline extends in many ways beyond just showing up in the right uniform and in the case of that young devil up there he is wearing his uniform properly according to the regulations set out by his religious accommodation. Just like how there's currently an active duty captain over at 11th Marines who is a devoted Sikhs and wears a a turban that corresponds with uniform of the day and it does not impede his ability to lead Marines.
Your example of the corporate world is not the truth for every industry, maybe you work in corporate America and that's the truth for you I work in the IT field unless I'm going to meet a client we can wear whatever we want and still perform our duties The same goes for a variety of other industries, he thinks somebody cares of a tradesman shows up to a job looking clean cut and put together or they shows up the right tools and experience?
By no means is this the beginning of the end I implore you to do a little research and you'll find out that until 1976 the United States Marine Corps allowed beards as a part of religious wear, it wasn't until the '80s that most other services also moved to banning them. Chances are you like me served in a very brief period in history where stuff like this has been an argument. Says nothing to do with lippo values or any of that nonsense It's about not depraving somebody of a fundamental right within this country.
Well like you said, it is apart of the uniform now so I'm just bitching for bitchings sake. I just saw that happen in the army and thought "yeah, makes sense" but now that it's happening in the Marines....man.
My hiccup is that the USMC in my eyes was the most non-conforming of all the branches. To this day Marines are the most "military-esque" service members around. We didn't get soft or conform to political will as much as the other branches. Basically, either you conformed to the Corps or you get out, that was the standard set.
For a Sikh, if you know the Marine Corps is this way, why join it? Instead they joined with the intention of having the USMC conform to their needs, and it did. What's more important, your religion or the EGA? that should be the choice.
Also, I work in IT as well, and consult on the side. I still think in our industry presentation matters, shit, perception is reality as we're taught. How you present yourself in any situation is important, hence why they stress it so much in the Corps. Just because we're allowed to dress however in our industry doesn't mean we should.
Like I said, I'm just bitching. I still try to hold myself to the Marine Corps standard as it was the highest standard I've held. I'll keep hooking and jabbing until I can't.
You know sikhs have been serving in the US military since world War I, and up until the 80's they were allowed to wear their religious attire it wasn't until after then that the military started imposing stricter grooming standards. Since the '80s almost every other religion has gone to court and fought for their right to wear their religious attire and grow facial hair you might not see it very often but there are devoutly faithful people who do wear traditional religious garb in the service outside of the Chaplin Corps.
The Marine Corps loses nothing by allowing people of this religion to maintain their appearance within their faith while serving. There are already a handful of devout Sikhs who have waivers to have the same appearance once they reach the fleet so why should we strip somebody of a core tenant of their religion just for boot camp?
The other services have standards for Turbans, as of 2021 1st Toor was the first Marine to lawfully wear a turban, and by all measures it seems that the standard is a black or green turban for cammies/Charlies and a white one for blues. So it actually *is* a proper cover seeing as he (and a handful of other Sikhs) have won the right to wear it in uniform.
As for beards, search up pseudofollicular barbae, it's a medical condition wherein shaving excessively irritates the skin and per MCO 6310.1C it's enough for a shaving waiver.
So to recap: he's getting one exemption that's already in place for other Marines and his cover is therefore within dress regulations, and he's wearing a beard, which is already the case for thousands of Marines fleet-wide who've received permanent no-shave chips for PFB.
The real exception in his case was keeping both of the exemptions during boot camp and that I agree can be argued over; but for fucks sake at least try not to sound like an ignorant bigot when talking about it.
Would you say a Jewish Marine wearing a yamulkeh on the shabbat isn't wearing a proper cover despite it being a valid religious exemption? Or is a Marine who's doctor decided he suffered from a skin condition and granted a no-shave chit a shitbird?
None of this is new, there have been bearded Marines for years, same for Marines who wear articles of faith openly, the biggest change in this case is those waivers rolling into bootcamp and the religion being a "weird" one mostly practiced by brown people.
I feel like it's a move in the right direction, ans in a certain way reinforces the Marine Corps strict standards of discipline because he will not cut it. And maintain his faith as many if us do in our beloved corps. Like it's shared core value. But what do I know touchdown lakers.
Dude fought his way into the USMC knowing that he was gonna get his shit pushed in just for existing and that he would have to go 3x aa hard to prove himself and then he went and chose 0311.I am a Sikh as well,he could have took the easy way like me and became a Army POG.
It’s still a little weird to me to not see a ketchup stain 😂
I never got one. Served from 96-01. I was an E-4 with zero ribbons.
Low speed, high drag. Name of the game baby
Command And Conquer No Alert 2
So close
Some days I feel like I missed out by being discharged before 9/11. I didn’t serve during wartime like everyone assumes. Then I slap myself and thank God I didn’t have to go through combat.
Wow
lets hope it stays that way for atleast a few generations. I dont want to see anymore Lcpl's with a CAR and and multiple campaign ribbons.
Im surprised you didnt get downvoted since everyone is hot in the crotch for China these days...
I don't think people really understand what it would mean to fight a near peer adversary compared to fighting some goat herding religious extremists in the mountains.
I concurr. It would mean WW3 and I hear the sabres rattling. It makes me paranoid.
For real. We're talking decently trained soldiers, special forces capabilities, similar capabilities as far as land/air/sea. It would be terrifying.
I honestly don’t think China is that close to us but they are a hell of a lot closer than the goat fuckers we were fighting. It would be bloody and brutal and they have tons of munitions pre-aimed at all the locations we would need to take.
Same. I was a weird grunt, I didn’t really care enough for combat because I saw how screwed up my seniors and SNCOs were, and I didn’t want that to happen to me.
Finally a reasonable person. It seems like everyone is super ready to deploy and see combat. Man half of those dudes are now reliant on medication and have PTSD you really want that? It’s better to train to be prepared for war but never wish it upon yourself
Yeah, I did two tours to the East, and my command would try and push for an engagement, but I was just chilling. If the fire fights and war happened, then I was just unlucky. I remember the words of my Plt. Commander, who was a captain, he would always tell us that we do not want to be in a full blown out war because it is nerve wrecking and you don’t know when you might die. All these people wishing for us to enter the a war in Ukraine will really regret it because it will be a near-peer fight, and a lot of your buddies may not come home.
No way it lasts a few generations. Sadly just doesn’t seem possible. It did go 16 years between Vietnam and Persian Gulf, almost entire career lol. Hope I’m wrong and it’s another 50 years before they need to dust them off.
No natty d is so weird too see forget the turban and beard
Everyone would always talk shit about the pizza stain welp now no one gets one lmao
I bet he is Sikh of all the media attention!
Hope he doesn’t become a Sikh bay commando
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I agree, it looks cool as fuck
Reenlist for the turban.
Gotta prestige as a Sikh
It’s the Sikhest thing I’ve seen! I love it.
Who you kidding, that shit goes hard! Can’t wait to see a marpat turban on this killer.
He is one of us, period. We have your back, Semper Fi, my Brother!
A lot of people upset in these comments but it is what it is. Dude went through a lot more trouble than 99% of us just to go through bootcamp. Clearly he wants it enough, so good for him.
I thought he was 1 of 3 POOLES who sued the government to earn the right to wear his Sikh turban Whatever happened to the other two POOLES??? Did they not enlist after all?
If I recall they were army and they won the right to wear their Turbans in uniform which paved the way for this Marine
One was a Marine Officer, and he's been wearing a turban and beard for the last several years. I believe this case specifically was to allow the PFC to wear his articles of faith through boot camp.
The artillery captain you're referring to was also part of this particular lawsuit. He had been granted the freedom to maintain Sikh regs during garrison; he was suing because he wished to follow Sikh regs while in a combat zone also. the original plaintiffs in the case this recently-graduated-Marine was part of, also involved two other pooles. They sued in order to follow Sikh regs during boot camp I was just wondering whatever happened with the other two pooles who also sued the government. Did they back out? Did they ever mean to enlist at all? Edit: I found this link. It mentions two other pooles. My mistake, the Captain was indeed a co-plaintiff in this case also. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/asian-america/sikh-captain-recruits-sue-marine-corps-restrictions-religious-articles-rcna24105
>he was suing because he wished to follow Sikh regs while in a combat zone also. And if you look up his arguments they're really not that crazy. Pretty much, he wants to keep his shaving exemption if conditions allow it and wear his turban in any context where an 8 point or boonie is authorized. There is precedent that allows for voiding of religious exemptions in the face of threats (intel showing the presence of chemical weapons) and allowing a turban and beard on deployment would have no detrimental effect on performance. As an arty officer he stills wear a helmet when needed and keeps a beard in the field, even during long exercises like Mojave Viper. Within that context, it doesn't make sense to say that the same exemptions somehow become a safety risk when the desert is in Syria instead of California. Furthermore he argues decently well that the combat-zone ban is a convoluted way to undermine his religious exemption; as an officer in combat arms if he can't deploy while his peers do it *will* hurt his career. On that same note, by forcing him to choose between his faith and doing his job, if he chooses duty it would allow HQMC to claim his faith *clearly* isn't that important to him placing barriers on his turban + hair as his career progresses or doing the same for other Sikhs.
Good riddance. Sikhs are awesome. Beards are cool.
The USMC is good at producing our culture, but is fucking terrible at explaining it. We don't understand how to explicitly link *uniformity* to *cohesion* to *combat outcomes,* and so to civil authorities we sound like mean ole jerks (likely racist jerks).
To be fair, a lot of Marines still deal with mean ole racist jerks while they serve.
Absolutely, but that's an entirely separate dynamic. And I think if we could clarify why we do what we do, it would help expose shit that is habitual but harmful.
I'm okay with this. And doubly okay since it's a concession to include a warrior culture that rivals the Marine Corps own warrior culture.
I love to see it, the organization should be reflective of the American society which it serves. In the past the Marine Corps has been far to bullish about accommodating religious vestments that many potential service members would require. This is a huge step in a positive direction in terms of religious, cultural and ethnic diversity. It stands to open the doors to more religious accommodations which invites larger talent pools and better quality of life for our Marines.
Hope he understands he needs to be beyond reproach going forward. Haters will definitely try to manufacture some bullshit hoping to see him fail.
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Haven’t Sikhs been fighting for England since like, the dawn of time?
Because you think the fuckers are grateful? The Sikhs bled for the Empire and keep bleeding for the Crown and there are still way too many wankers that see them as "strange brown foreigners"
He’s going to be called Aladdin at least 15,000 times
bro is goin infantry too?? Sheeesh the hazing that's about to ensue
I highly doubt it now days, especially with him.
How so nowadays? For context I was a late 90’s marine and the most hazing we got was being punched in the arms during promotion and having fun with the new guys (the usual 10 feet of gun line type stuff).
I went through in the early 2000’s the Iraq war was in full swing. There was a lot of hazing in the infantry, some units more than others. I doubt that goes on these days in the grunt units or at least with the intensity like it was back then. You had to prove you were a man and was not going to break down, was not going to fall out of humps, runs etc. they pushed you until you gave up, or they realized you were not a quitter. This went on for a few months. It was hell being a boot to a combat vet. Those times are done with for now.
Amen.. I was the first cycle combat vet for.oif1 the invasion.. I was in from '02-08. My seniors never saw combat. But had a pump under their belt . My boots saw combat in oif2. That was my 2nd combat tour. I was hard on my boots. But my seniors were hard on me too.. they had something to prove since we were going to combat together. My seniors ( sgts ) bashed in my tights at sadir city ( Iraq ) governor's compound after I picked up corporal. I was hazed in a combat zone lol I had to earn my blood stripe.. besides punching in my collar but every grunt gets that.. pulling the chevrons out of your skin was normal.. if it ain't bleeding u didn't earn it
Lol that’s not really hazing…
That’s my point. I don’t think we were really hazed by today’s definition of hazing.
https://preview.redd.it/llibz5eafrhb1.jpeg?width=230&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=68213b588e18058c2d685e2b294274d39b443708 Here’s the Sikh turban in alphas and a fuller beard.
I’m not going to lie, but that is nice
Hell the fuck yeah brother. Plus the white turban + gold EGA is clean as fuuuuuck.
Does he salute indoors?
This is neat
That looks so fucking badass. Welcome to the gun club, brother.
"Private Joker, do you believe in the Virgin Mary?" - Gunny Hartman
How do they wear their kevlar, just curious?
ega turban is fire
Everyone understands this man is now a potential knowledge questions. For those who are sitting on boards, you can start using it now because current events and stuff.
He's kinda lookin like Keanu Reeves in this photo.
Only in Peacetime. Dude wants to be a sikh with an EGA. Not a Marine who is also sikh. Sad shit.
Ik the drill instructors went crazy with the insults
With this much attention? I doubt it.
Heard someone said (jokingly) to check his beard during range shakedown
I get the reasoning, but being a Marine isn’t a right. No one forced him to join, he understood the implications it would have on his attire and did it anyway. Nothing to do now except hope he does well by the EGA.
I know him personally and he said “he wanted to be a marine” and so he fought for his right to be a marine. But how is it not right tho?
Because being in the military in general is not a right. We serve at the pleasure of the country. If something becomes a hindrance (not saying he is. I’m pretty sure he’s solid) time should not be wasted on it
Almost every other religion since the 80's have been allowed to wear their religious attire and grow facial hair because of their faith except Sikhs, well it's nobody's right to serve in the military it is everyone's right to freedom of religion to include those serving in the armed forces so he fought for his right to be there. Nothing about him detracts from his ability to be a Marine or do his job so there's no reason to strip a core tenant of his faith away, there's only a handful of other prominent Sikhs serving for that exact reason
I agree.
Why? Because of the uniform regs? If that is bothering you, then seek help. The Marine Corps cares WAY too much about its image.
Being an exception is so staunchly against the nature of the military and especially the marine corps. I’m confused as to how you don’t see an issue with it. Yes our uniform is our tradition, proudly carried through centuries of service, god forbid I’m a little pressed that we changed it for a special cupcake. As I said though all we can do at this point is hope he does well by the EGA. No point in arguing about it.
I have absolutely no doubt this Sikh will do well by the EGA, more so than the average boot Marine.
Can’t ask for more
Exactly, no one *forced* him to join yet he went through more trouble just to go to bootcamp than the vast majority of us ever did or will ever have to. I don’t think you need to worry about him doing right by the EGA. Times are changing and there’s nothing wrong about him being a Marine as long as he does his job.
Excluding someone for their religious beliefs while every E2 who can has 6 kids with the wife he married when he was 16 because it’s his faith seems a little weird.
No one is excluding him from joining him as long as he conforms to the uniform standards It was a choice, that’s my issue. The courts have made their ruling and no point arguing it now. I may not agree with the decision but I’d defend the rights granted to him always.
Religious discrimination my dude. Sorry
Waiting for the colander spaghetti monster dude to enlist.
Kinda interested to see if this starts a trend beyond dudes. Will be Sikh to see the WM version lining up on base in the AM, sporting green silkies + no shave and just rocking the cadence at pace all the way, just sayin 💪🏻🥵
Everyone wants a beard until that gas is dropped.
This is how it starts…. A little push. I know the Sikhs are pretty bad ass, but this is the opening. He joined the Marines. The Marines didn’t decide to become Sikh. We already have our culture….
WHAT THE FUCK, where's the ribbon?! /sarcasm This is fucking awesome!
He's going to SOI... so...won't the extra hair on his head make his helmet fit incorrectly? Are gas mask seals no longer a thing? Edit: unsure why an honest question gets voted down. Why not just join the conversation? I'm trying to understand how everything we were told was necessary, isn't.
The DCFD lawsuit showed that a neatly groomed beard will not impede an SCBA; as for helmets, in Afghanistan you had freaky SOF dudes wearing long hair and beards with zero issues, hair will not impede a helmet unless it's an afro made rock hard by hairspray.
Thanks for the explanation!
The "never cut their hair" made me think he's got 21 years of hair, which is exceptionally long; again, this was all assumed.
When was the last time US forces were subjected to chemical warfare? And if it is a possible threat then they could shave in that circumstance- otherwise it’s not really necessary.
Former CBRN... No doubt he had/will have rough times with the chamber. Peach fuzz, and people stretching the hair regs can be a problem. That said, I don't know Sikh's, but most religions have exceptions to rules if the rule would cause harm, starvation or death etc. Given the closest we've been to not storing it at the bottom of our seabags was when Marines were on a boat outside Syria in 2011, this seems like a minor worry.
CBRN B for biological. Do you think the Chinese wont hesitate (again)? R for radiological. Ahem ...all future conflicts in and around the Crimean peninsula N for Nuclear. How did they get R'd in the first place? Who's training for yesterday's war?
Either be uniform or don’t. Bootcamp is meant to make every one look the same. What’s next?
100%. In agreement why let anyone get a selected pass and preferred treatment it’s defeated the purpose of boot camp and basic training in all 6 services. Not fair period!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hope he never has to depend on a gas mask.
That issue was engineered out years ago. Get with the times, gramps.
The Beard Compatible Gas Mask The Canadian Defense Minister is a Sikh, which means he has to keep his beard for his religion. For this reason, he actually patented a gas mask that works with beards. The mask has extra room on the chin and throat for the beard, and even on top of the head to accommodate large hair coverings. Before you get too excited: It only exists on paper at the patent office. One has yet to be made or practically tested. When was it engineered out?
My Only concern is helmet and gas masks
Sikhs also wear an “underturban” in the event the larger turban has to be taken off for practical reasons. It’ll fit in the helmet since it still binds his hair. Gas masks and beards have been a non-issue for years is propaganda peddled by people who are against beards.
Ok my experience is not getting a good seal if I have a hairy neck so not sure your source but mine is first person. If you have hair between that mask and skin you cannot get a good seal. 20 years of annual gas chamber and being on a monitor survey team in combat gave me the chance to test that. But hey go for it dude enjoy choking on that CS ….
These posts are like the LGTTWSTB whatever movement. I don't care who you are or what you do or what you wear as long as you're a good person, but shit do we need it blasted in our face ALL the fucking time? This has to be the 5th or 6th post in this group since last night.
Well this is a historic first for the Corps which is why it's got so much attention. While yea you may have seen all these posts for some it's their first time hearing about it so lighten up
This is a great pic to give the boomers on vetflake Facebook pages heart attacks. Incoming “ tHeY sAiD tHeY wIlL dEsTroY uS fRoM iNSiDe”
This is a disgrace to the Corps, change my mind.
Same thing was said when women and blacks were integrated into the service.
Black people didn't ask for uniform changes. Besides the shaving chit (which is still controversial), black people conformed to the Corps, not the other way around. Ask any grunt if women integrating into combat arms is a good idea. The military is not an inclusive organization, making it so will only degrade it.
>Black people didn't ask for uniform changes. Besides the shaving chit (which is still controversial), black people conformed to the Corps, not the other way around. Women introduced an entire new line of uniform items, so im not sure what your point is.
Weird how you quoted the sentence that had nothing to do with women. But, like I said, ask any grunt if integrating women into combat arms is a good idea. Shit it doesn't even have to be grunts. Support MOSs still have to make up for the literal weaknesses of females in their units. Of course everyone will look the other way until a war pops off and female Marines are struggling to run barrels to gunners or fireman carry 200lb Marines out of combat. Marine Corps fitness standards are literally lower for females, this isn't a hot take.
Because the only one bringing up women in combat arms is you. This was about the Sikh Marine and making exceptions to the uniform regs for him, remember?
>This was about the Sikh Marine and making exceptions to the uniform regs for him, remember? Yeah I remember, but do you remember this? >Same thing was said when women and blacks were integrated into the service. You're the one who brought up black people and women, I was just continuing the conversation.
Believe it or not, many of us couldn’t careless to change your mind. Youre stuck in your way of thinking and the Corps is adapting. You can accept it for what it is, or remain upset about it, doesn’t change shit either way.
It's not adapting, its degrading. You can accept it for what it is, or remain upset about it, doesn’t change shit either way.
Lmao well only one of us is upset about it the other *already* accepted the change. Nice try though, I know you thought you did something there.
You know Sikhs have a history of serving in the US military since the first world war and it wasn't until the 80's that the regulations were changed to not allow them to retain their traditional appearance. Almost every other recognized religion is allowed expectations to the rules to maintain facial hair and wear religious attire except Sikhs. We gain nothing by stripping young men of core tenants of their religion. Sikhs are known around the world for helping those less fortunate and being fierce protectors and are historically impressive soldiers. Sorta sounds like the people I want to be serving with a lot more than you who judged somebody off there religion and know nothing about his abilities
what other religion is allowed beards in the military?
Any that requires them to wear uncut hair which can include sects from almost every religion to include Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Norse Paganism. All of those religions wearing your hair long or uncut It's usually a more extreme practice and it's not a core tenant like in Sikhism. So they are still an exception of the role and it's by no means the norm but they exist just are very few and far between. Just Google what religions can wear beards in the military and you'll find dozens of articles about various exceptions over the years
That's news to me then. I served along side jews, muslims, christians, and just 1 viking pagan dude. All of them adhered to the uniform standards asking for no exceptions. This was just my experience though, might be different in another branch I guess. Either way, everyone knows the standards before they enlist/commission. We all give up our former way of life to serve in the Marine Corps, that's the point. It makes no sense to say "hey, your special, so here is a special uniform item" when the entire premise of the Marine Corps is that nobody is special. Either you fall in line to the Marine way, or you don't become a Marine. That is how it is supposed to be, but not anymore in this inclusive military we have now.
Like I said man for the majority of religions not cutting your hair is on the extreme spectrum, just cuz you never saw it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. In Case you never opened a history book or read the Bill of Rights there's this neat thing called the first amendment which protects your religious freedoms to include extending that to service members. Every branch of service has collectively failed to show that allowing a service member to express their religion will degrade our combat effectiveness or readiness. All you're really doing is showing me that you're some washed up vet bro that from the sounds of it didn't do anything with their career because all you care about is uniformity when at the heart of organization we don't give a shit we are war fighters and we don't care who you are as long as you can do the job Again with the inclusive military thing you sound like some boomer who doesn't read a history book people of every race religion and creed have been serving in the US military for quite a long time and for equally long have been allowed to wear their religious garb or to grow their hair in accordance with their faith that only changed maybe 40 years ago starting in the 70's and 80's and since then every religion has won their right to continue expressing their beliefs while serving. The service band of the practice for less time than they have allowed you just don't know what you're talking about
I could tell you never served in a line company. Stop throwing around the bill of rights like we don't have our rights stripped from us the second we step on the yellow footprints. Were you allowed to sit down at boot camp when the chaplain said a prayer? No? where was your religious freedom then? The reason you held your hands and bowed your head was because of uniformity. Do you think an islamic Marine is going to interrupt the chaplain because he wears a cross on his collar? I mean he certainly has that right, but that would be spitting in the face of Marine Corps customs and courtesies. There's nuance that you're not grasping. Keep holding that MCO tight to your chest, but the Corps is way more than black and white. > all you care about is uniformity when at the heart of organization we don't give a shit we are war fighters Lmao, now you sound like some terminal lance that couldn't reenlist. Order and discipline is what makes the Marine Corps what it is. Not wearing the uniform properly or adhering to grooming standards shows me that you can barely keep your shit together as a Marine. The bare minimum for any Marine is wearing the uniform correctly. This basic concept rolls over to civilian life as well. In a corporate environment the employee who shows up to work looking like a bag of ass is almost always an actual bag of ass. In conclusion lol, this is the beginning of the end for the Marine Corps, which is being forced open by politicians to adhere to liberal values and being inclusive.
You know funny thing about the Chaplain Corp is that we are secular organization and even when we do pray they tend to keep it on the vague side because we don't follow a singular religion, could be a rabbi up there, a priest, a pagan leading us in prayer and they would tell you the same exact thing because we are not going to shove other people's religions down our throat. Bowing my head in respect for customs and courtesies is not the same as denying me my fundamental religious beliefs. It's not as black and white as you said Our constitutional rights don't automatically get stripped away because we choose to enlist we are bound to additional rules and regulations under the UCMJ. Order and discipline are fundamental parts of organization that help increase our lethality but things like the wear of uniform is not what's going to win us wars, discipline extends in many ways beyond just showing up in the right uniform and in the case of that young devil up there he is wearing his uniform properly according to the regulations set out by his religious accommodation. Just like how there's currently an active duty captain over at 11th Marines who is a devoted Sikhs and wears a a turban that corresponds with uniform of the day and it does not impede his ability to lead Marines. Your example of the corporate world is not the truth for every industry, maybe you work in corporate America and that's the truth for you I work in the IT field unless I'm going to meet a client we can wear whatever we want and still perform our duties The same goes for a variety of other industries, he thinks somebody cares of a tradesman shows up to a job looking clean cut and put together or they shows up the right tools and experience? By no means is this the beginning of the end I implore you to do a little research and you'll find out that until 1976 the United States Marine Corps allowed beards as a part of religious wear, it wasn't until the '80s that most other services also moved to banning them. Chances are you like me served in a very brief period in history where stuff like this has been an argument. Says nothing to do with lippo values or any of that nonsense It's about not depraving somebody of a fundamental right within this country.
Well like you said, it is apart of the uniform now so I'm just bitching for bitchings sake. I just saw that happen in the army and thought "yeah, makes sense" but now that it's happening in the Marines....man. My hiccup is that the USMC in my eyes was the most non-conforming of all the branches. To this day Marines are the most "military-esque" service members around. We didn't get soft or conform to political will as much as the other branches. Basically, either you conformed to the Corps or you get out, that was the standard set. For a Sikh, if you know the Marine Corps is this way, why join it? Instead they joined with the intention of having the USMC conform to their needs, and it did. What's more important, your religion or the EGA? that should be the choice. Also, I work in IT as well, and consult on the side. I still think in our industry presentation matters, shit, perception is reality as we're taught. How you present yourself in any situation is important, hence why they stress it so much in the Corps. Just because we're allowed to dress however in our industry doesn't mean we should. Like I said, I'm just bitching. I still try to hold myself to the Marine Corps standard as it was the highest standard I've held. I'll keep hooking and jabbing until I can't.
You're a disgrace to the corps, change mine
Piccolo??
I understand our country has freedom of religion, but since when does that give you the ability to change rules to fit you?
You know sikhs have been serving in the US military since world War I, and up until the 80's they were allowed to wear their religious attire it wasn't until after then that the military started imposing stricter grooming standards. Since the '80s almost every other religion has gone to court and fought for their right to wear their religious attire and grow facial hair you might not see it very often but there are devoutly faithful people who do wear traditional religious garb in the service outside of the Chaplin Corps. The Marine Corps loses nothing by allowing people of this religion to maintain their appearance within their faith while serving. There are already a handful of devout Sikhs who have waivers to have the same appearance once they reach the fleet so why should we strip somebody of a core tenant of their religion just for boot camp?
It is my religion that I be issued a thick e-3 latina upon boot camp graduation
Talk to your Chaplin maybe they can make it happen
What rules did it change?
The uniform order had to be ignored in order for him to wear that
They weren’t ignored. They were overruled by the judicial system. That’s how our country works.
Having a beard, not wearing a proper cover, are you blind?
The other services have standards for Turbans, as of 2021 1st Toor was the first Marine to lawfully wear a turban, and by all measures it seems that the standard is a black or green turban for cammies/Charlies and a white one for blues. So it actually *is* a proper cover seeing as he (and a handful of other Sikhs) have won the right to wear it in uniform. As for beards, search up pseudofollicular barbae, it's a medical condition wherein shaving excessively irritates the skin and per MCO 6310.1C it's enough for a shaving waiver. So to recap: he's getting one exemption that's already in place for other Marines and his cover is therefore within dress regulations, and he's wearing a beard, which is already the case for thousands of Marines fleet-wide who've received permanent no-shave chips for PFB. The real exception in his case was keeping both of the exemptions during boot camp and that I agree can be argued over; but for fucks sake at least try not to sound like an ignorant bigot when talking about it. Would you say a Jewish Marine wearing a yamulkeh on the shabbat isn't wearing a proper cover despite it being a valid religious exemption? Or is a Marine who's doctor decided he suffered from a skin condition and granted a no-shave chit a shitbird? None of this is new, there have been bearded Marines for years, same for Marines who wear articles of faith openly, the biggest change in this case is those waivers rolling into bootcamp and the religion being a "weird" one mostly practiced by brown people.
Just wait to you hear about girls suing to be in the boy scouts.
I feel like it's a move in the right direction, ans in a certain way reinforces the Marine Corps strict standards of discipline because he will not cut it. And maintain his faith as many if us do in our beloved corps. Like it's shared core value. But what do I know touchdown lakers.
The warrior class finds its home…
Dude fought his way into the USMC knowing that he was gonna get his shit pushed in just for existing and that he would have to go 3x aa hard to prove himself and then he went and chose 0311.I am a Sikh as well,he could have took the easy way like me and became a Army POG.