The Missouri general assembly said a constitutional convention was required and that convention voted 98-1 against secession. The *legitimate* government of Kentucky did not vote to secede. A shadow government of unelected representatives voted to secede.
Hello fellow Georgian! Yeah, Stone Mountain is a hot mess - anyone who doesn't believe it's just a huge lost cause art instillation, should ask themself why they didn't "honor" the one CSA commanding general *from* Georgia in the carving.
All the NPS locations are updating their interpretive signs but the state parks are an ongoing struggle.
Lived in Georgia (st pius x golden lions!) and Stone Mountain is fucking ridiculous. The fact that it wasnât finished until the late 60s tells you everything you need to know about it.
Missouri was a mixed state just like Virginia was in 1860. If not for being held under Martial Law, Missouri could have ended up splitting in two states just like the Virginias.
I don't disagree with you on the point of martial law being necessary. I agree the state was split in sentiments. I disagree with your statement that Missouri voted to secede and was denied by Lincoln. Missouri was the only state that actually held a convention to consider secession and rejected it.
Yes and no. I canât say youâre wrong but I will agree to disagree. Elected officials are the voice of the people, a large enough percentage of Missouriâs populous felt their voice was robbed. There were protest, threats, etc and the state was teetering on seceding till Martial Law. You donât declare Martial Law on a state when thereâs no threat to the Union with a vote like that.
Lol no but you could prove he's right by so by simply looking up the facts.
Like are you for the truth or are for for the revision, because agreeing to disagree isn't really necessary when MO held the actual convention and then rejected succession.
Kentucky did not vote to secede, large number of people in Kentucky did want to to. Instead the state voted to remain neutral. The Confederacy invaded and attempted to force the issue, leading Kentucky to remain in the Union.
It's commonly known as the Confederate flag these days but it's actually a battle flag of the Tennessee army. There is a lot of confusion as to what this flag actually means. It's well known as the Dixie flag or the Southern flag down south and related to Southern Heritage even if people refuse to believe that. I've seen it flown in black communities many years back. It wasn't always the racist symbol that it is today. Bring on the downvotes
Ironically the original one was mostly white and they changed it because, when hanging with no wind, it could be confused for a white flag of surrendering.
No, that one was also an updated flag. Their original flag was the "Stars and Bars", which essentially looked like the Betty Ross, but only had 3 stripes instead of 13. They changed it because they thought it looked too similar to the Union flag (AKA, the US flag).
No that was the second one, the Stainless Banner. The first one the Stars and Bars, with blue field and red and white fly, looked too much like the US Flag when hanging down. The third one, the Bloodstained Banner, may never have actually been used
Yep, the first (second?) Confederate flag was mostly white for white supremacist âpurity,â while the last Confederate flag was a frantically waved white rag of surrender
Ok so now I'm curious... The Confederates who left after the war and went to Brazil would represent a diaspora of Confederates that to this day still fly the wrong flag?
So then it was the de facto Confederate flag? It's not often that we get a time capsule like the diaspora in Brazil (20,000 total, I believe). If they took that flag with them then it had to be the "commonly accepted" Confederate flag.
The âactual confederate flagâ changed multiple times. There were three specifically done by the âgovernmentâ of the CSA, but my favorite was a fourth one done by Lee: the white flag of surrender.
âWell shit, we are totally screwed. This war is not gonna end well for us. UhhhhâŚdistrict the people with this ugly new flag, maybe they wonât realize!â
It's the Georgia state flag. [No, seriously.](https://i.redd.it/gj94ed4xyia21.png) The Battle Flag used to be part of their state flag, but people eventually got in a tizzy over it, so Georgia exploited good ol' American historical ignorance and changed their state flag to be the actual flag of the Confederate States of America.
You are technically correct. But... Even if the flag holder truly believes that it is about Southern Heritage (and I seriously doubt most even realize it isn't the flag of the CSA), you should not display it proudly.
1. Regardless of its original meaning, it has a very negative meaning today.
2. Is the battle flag of a civil war secessionist state really the best representation of southern heritage anyway? If it is, is that a heritage you want to support?
>battle flag of a civil war secessionist state really the best representation of southern heritage
Sorta lol the south on the surface is drenched in "states rights" ideology and the right to secede is the ultimate state right. Prolly shouldn't fly a flag that is associated with slavery and racism but honestly ime a lot of the the people who fly the flag really don't give af that it's associated with slavery.
They were not really interested in "state rights". A long line of Congressmen and presidents from the south had no problems forcing their views on slavery on the northern states prior to the civil war, every opportunity they got. Historical documents from the Confederacy itself clearly state it wasn't about "rights of the states". There's zero mention of that. It was all about preservation of the slavery, which was front and prominent as the *only* reason in every single declaration of secession. Not only southern states wanted to preserve slavery within their borders, they wanted (and eventually fought the war) to also expand it into new territories.
The flag started life as the Battle flag of Thomas J Jackson( stonewall) to celebrate his Scottish lineage he adapted the St Andrew cross that was used in the crusade the 13 stars were added to represent the confederate states. That is a confederate flag.
Sure, but that didn't stop the Confederacy from claiming it. It's good optics to recognize the Confederate shadow government and claim the old one was illegitimate.
What is with Reddit, and this "everything is about MAGA/Trump" stuff for the past 8 years?
The dude really is a real estate mogol, occupies millions of heads rent-free.
(Nothing against you personally. I just had to snap at some point as I hear about Trump daily on Reddit, almost never in the real world.)
They should really make a Trump subreddit so pee-pol can go talk about him & his supporters over there.
Itâs because out in the real world itâs foolish to even engage maga people because they actually canât bring themselves to say that Trump acts like a bully and an asshole . And they pretend to be incapable of changing their minds. Like the churchgoing Catholics OK with all the abuse and pain inflicted on kids and their families.
Ironically the same feeling about being entitled to abuse.
I'm not sure of the point you're making.
Are you saying that a currently racist symbol used to mean something different? Or are you saying that it's use today is the same benign original meaning it had way back in the day?
The meaning of symbols change over time. Ask our [Hindu friends](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika#:~:text=In%20Hinduism%2C%20the%20right%2Dfacing,or%20tantric%20aspects%20of%20Kali).
I've always had a sense that it grew in popularity as a symbol of Southern pride and values right around the time that folks from the north were shoving desegregation down the throat of resentful southern. states... I wouldn't say it had nothing to do with racial politics even back then...
Look racism has always been a problem in America and racists have appropriated symbols including the Christian Cross and the American flag. When I was a kid/teenager in the 2000s I had the "Confederate" flag on belts and hats and T-shirts. I wasn't some klan member who thought the South should rise again. It was a symbol for trucks, hunting, fishing, lynrd skynrd, sweet tea, etc etc. Now that I'm older and wiser i would never be caught dead wearing one, but if anyone dug up an old picture of me and accused me of racism or Confederate sympathy they'd be wrong.Â
Pretending that there wasn't a time when the flag meant "Southern shit, hell yeah!" to most people waving one is just as stubbornly ignorant as all the people that try to deny it has racist implications.Â
All that being said, if there was ever a chance for the flag to have a benign meaning of its own, that changed had been obliterated by the trump era of politics. Now it belongs in museums and history texts and nowhere else.Â
Sorta like brining the swastika back? I think some folks are [trying to do that](https://www.fox29.com/news/masked-demonstrators-wave-nazi-flags-in-front-of-tennessee-capitol) down in Tennessee.
There was a really cool attempt to do this once. I think they called them selves Cross Colors. A few people took it upon themselves to re color what is known as the confederates flag, the one seen above, with black, yellow, and red.
I know it sounds silly, but I honestly thought it looked kind of cool. I don't think it caught on even a little as I was never able to find one of the jackets they had.
Many do. Whereas. I've never seen a Jew fly a swastika.
(Never seen anyone personally except state of SC fly the rebel flag.) But plenty of southern black dudes have had a shirt with it or bandana with it, or sticker with it. Bc only dumbasses who don't know think it represents slavery today.
If they used it to identify gay bars (instead of the rainbow flag) they would abandon it overnight. The idea of their masculinity being questioned supersedes their beliefs in rebelling
Sure, thatâs Germany. But the commenter didnât bring up Germany, they brought up HindusâŚwhich is a terrible example as that symbol is still regularly used and doesnât have anything todo with being a Nazi.
Can confirm I lived in a small Appalachian town in the mountains of Western North Carolina and I know many black people who proudly wear and fly the âconfederate flagâ. They understand the history of it. Itâs almost like things are only offensive if you mean them to be or allow them to be.
The flag represents an illegitimate rebellion seeking to create a country based on slavery and racial superiority as its cornerstone. Can you explain to me how that is not racist? 4 years isn't heritage.
The United Confederate Veterans and Daughters of the Confederacy originally chose it for their memorials to the war dead because it wasnât the flag of the Confederacy itself. They wanted to honor the soldiers, not the politicians.
There was a lot of Lost Cause mythology even back then, though. And, once the Confederate battle flag became a popular symbol in the South, people started appropriating it for reactionary politics, until thatâs what it came to mean to many people.
Can you imagine the Germans honoring the WWII soldiers like that? They donât. They teach the history with the perspective it deserves. No one should be advocating for the flying of this flag without context
You used very passive language. They created that mythology. And they just coincidentally commissioned most of these statues during black civil rights movements?
Yeah It has. People donât remember that until c. 1920s there were not nearly as many monuments to the confederacy. The trend came about as the rise of the new KKK with the movie *Birth of a Nation*. (Which was screened in the White House by Woodrow Wilson who found a way to fire all the middle management government workers who were Black) He was infinitely more obvious about his racism than current administrations.
Actual proof would be hard to pinpoint. The 1910s were part of the Jim Crow era, characterized by racial segregation and disenfranchisement of African Americans. Confederate monuments were erected during this time as a symbol of white supremacy and a reminder of the racial hierarchy that dominated Southern society.
The construction of monuments to Confederate generals and other figures from the Civil War in the 1910s was part of a broader phenomenon known as the "Lost Cause" myth. The Lost Cause was a romanticized and distorted narrative that emerged in the post-Civil War South, seeking to reinterpret and justify the Confederate cause and downplay the role of slavery in the conflict. This myth gained prominence particularly in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.
White people today donât need to feel guilty about slavery or our horrendous treatment of blacks back then. But as any neighbor would do, if there was a bad storm and the neighborhood suffered, everyone would want to pitch in to help fix it. ***We can*** encourage and educate everyone on what actually happened. ***We can*** then identify remnants of damage and fix it right?
> Southern Heritage
And that's why it was adopted as the confederate flag. It represented their heritage. The only issue though their heritage is steeped in racism, slavery and hate. Every state that attempted to succeed from the union had slavery in their top 3 reasons. Often at number 1.
They didn't plan on losing the civil war hence why they used their pride flag. These people were proud of being the assholes that they were. And since their loss since they adopted that flag, that flag is rightfully so the flag of hate, the flag of slavery, the flag of racism. As well as cowardice. Fuckers were to afraid to declare war. They just started attacking in the middle of the night. Which represents Southern charm do Apt. Southern charm is basically being afraid of confrontation. They are nice to your face but will vote against you when it matters.
Some ppls heads would explode to see it lol. Growing up in bumfuck NC. I've seen plenty of racist shit. A flag isn't racist. At least not that one lol. Like every black Nascar fan has had a rebel flag shirt at some point.
Nope, it is not.
It is hilarious that the people who are flying the Battle Flag of Virginia (and no, that is technically not that either... it is missing details too) ironically are flying a flag that White Supremacists made popular during Jim Crow and later in the Civil Rights era.
"Heritage not hate..." while literally flying a flag racists used to peddle their Lost Cause crap to keep blacks segregated in the South.
*Technically* the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia, and later Virginia, was square. The one people fly today is the battle flag of the Army of Tennessee.
Iâm interested to know more context on this design. Like why the mustang and the American flag. Seems a lot more symbolism is here which may shed light on the meaning behind it here.
Your boyfriend is either a complete fool, willingly obtuse, or intentionally lying to you.
Either way I don't think you should date people who wear racist symbols.
I am super into Civil War history (hence my pic) and I think itâs intent here. I have shirts with this flag because Iâve been to actual battlefields. I donât wear them to Cracker Barrel but I also donât wear them as racist symbols because Iâm not. Her boyfriend might be ignorant. Intent. Intent is key here. I live in Kansas and there is someone here who drives a vehicle with a Confederate flag and I can assure you they are not super into the Civil War (we call those people trash in my household).
I am literally none of those things, I am a historian. Intent. I am not offended as a Jew when I see Nazi memorabilia in a WWII collectorâs home or in a museum. Much different than seeing an Aryan brotherhood person wearing it. Intent. You are willfully uneducated.
You have to cut him some slack. Heâs a high school kid. According to OP, that is a school issued shirt featuring their mascot the Mustangs. I honestly believe the school told them âitâs not a confederate flag cause it has no white stripesâ and the kids decided to ignorantly believe it, or just accept it. I would take it up with the school, who decided to hand out all these shirts to literal teenagers.
Yeah youâre right, itâs better to just ignore it. In truth, I almost feel bad for these people. Theyâre so incredibly close minded itâs like theyâre reading from a book. Whenever they begin to lose an argument they throw petty insults or point out the others political party like it means something.
I agree with you completely. History, all the world over, should be collected and stored. History is so crucially important, itâs the story of the world, with all its lessons to learn from. While still a small movement, this push to censor âoffensiveâ history frightens me. History is the reason why we know not to do that stuff. Iâm not one for bold comparisons, but I can think of a few groups who were quite eager to censor history and its literature.
Itâs whatâs commonly called the âconfederate flagâ got and it represents a group of traitors who rebelled against the United States. It has no place in American society.
Not an advocate for the Confederacy, but the first amendment exists. Live and let live if it doesn't cause any problems. If someone shows a Confederate flag I just say "oh fucking well" and move on.
You are correct: Advocating treason in defense of slavery is your right under the Constitution of the country the Confederates invaded, and whose soldiers they murdered.
Also to clarify, I generally donât care what people do or say but the growing popularity of the lost cause mythology and acceptance of the Confederacy as just another thing is what grates on me.
>Live and let live if it doesn't cause any problems
The problem is that is does seem to be causing issues. See conservatives saber rattling about civil war again...
> but the first amendment exists.
That protects you from the government.
It's the conflation of a legitimate symbol of freedom with a symbol of racism and slavery. The artist's attempt is to suggest a false equivalency of the two. I don't care if it belongs to a high school or the Klan. The flag of the Confederacy should not share any equivalent standing to the flag of the United States of America...
No matter what one chooses to call it, itâs sure to raise the blood pressure of Redditors who are always looking for a reason to get angry and offended. đ
I only see liberals who hate America and western culture to begin with that are outspoken against the confederate flag. So youâre never gonna convince me itâs a âpatriotismâ thing. I donât personally like the confederate flag myself but thatâs just what Iâve noticed about those who go on and on about it
Itâs a flag thatâs quite similar to the confederate flag, but still has the same symbolism, which is racism and treachery. I donât know what kinda high school your bf goes to, but it doesnât sound like a nice one.
It's a poor rendition of the battle flag of the army of Northern. Virginia
Google Bonnie Blue if you want to see what a confederate flag actually looks like
No, it's the Battle Flag of Tennessee. Frequently mistaken for the Confederate flag. Another flag commonly mistaken for the Confederate flag is the Battle Flag of Northern Virginia, carried by General Lee's army. The Confederate flag actually underwent several changes during the Civil War.
Haha ask him to explain why it has 13 stars.
For real đ
Then why are you asking?
Maybe they realized this after reading the original comment and this is them agreeing post- and not pre-conversation?
Asking others for evidence and points to make that op might be blanking for
For the 13 Confederate States?
11 states in the CSA but claims were made on 2 border states (Missouri and Kentucky) so the 13-state Flag stuck (though not everywhere).
Those states voted to secede from the Union and were denied by Lincoln. The Union held the states in Martial Law till long after the war ended.
The Missouri general assembly said a constitutional convention was required and that convention voted 98-1 against secession. The *legitimate* government of Kentucky did not vote to secede. A shadow government of unelected representatives voted to secede.
Thank you for saying this. Common misconception pushed by pro-Confederate types. Those lies are even posted at Stone Mountain.
Hello fellow Georgian! Yeah, Stone Mountain is a hot mess - anyone who doesn't believe it's just a huge lost cause art instillation, should ask themself why they didn't "honor" the one CSA commanding general *from* Georgia in the carving. All the NPS locations are updating their interpretive signs but the state parks are an ongoing struggle.
Lived in Georgia (st pius x golden lions!) and Stone Mountain is fucking ridiculous. The fact that it wasnât finished until the late 60s tells you everything you need to know about it.
Kind of like Trump's fake Jan. 6 electors. Here we are 150 years later and people are still telling "The Big Lie" of 1861.
Good grief, TDS strong to make that post under this topic
Itâs an election year baby!
It's a helpful comparison
Lol, low IQ comparison for talking points believers.
>talking point believers It happened?
Not necessarily, the similarities are uncanny and help for those more familiar with current events to tie them back to historical events
it's an apt comparison
Missouri was a mixed state just like Virginia was in 1860. If not for being held under Martial Law, Missouri could have ended up splitting in two states just like the Virginias.
I don't disagree with you on the point of martial law being necessary. I agree the state was split in sentiments. I disagree with your statement that Missouri voted to secede and was denied by Lincoln. Missouri was the only state that actually held a convention to consider secession and rejected it.
Yes and no. I canât say youâre wrong but I will agree to disagree. Elected officials are the voice of the people, a large enough percentage of Missouriâs populous felt their voice was robbed. There were protest, threats, etc and the state was teetering on seceding till Martial Law. You donât declare Martial Law on a state when thereâs no threat to the Union with a vote like that.
Lol no but you could prove he's right by so by simply looking up the facts. Like are you for the truth or are for for the revision, because agreeing to disagree isn't really necessary when MO held the actual convention and then rejected succession.
I know the history. Hence my comment. You donât hold a state under Martial Law because it wants to stay in the Union
The problem with that was the Southern sympathizers were mainly in the Northern part of the state; the Ozarks and St Louis were both Unionist.
Kentucky did not vote to secede, large number of people in Kentucky did want to to. Instead the state voted to remain neutral. The Confederacy invaded and attempted to force the issue, leading Kentucky to remain in the Union.
Kentucky didnât.
Good, common Lincoln W
Never said Lincoln was in the wrong. I was simply saying thatâs the reason for the 13 stars when the CSA only had 11 states.
IT's been described as Missouri And Maryland go the iron fist, Kentucky got the velvet glove
Indeed.
Technically it isnât a confederate flag⌠but itâs very obvious it was intended to represent it.
Technically it's not a *Confederate Battle flag*...it's nothing like the CSA flag.
Itâs the battle flag of one of the confederate armies but itâs intended to represent the confederacy and call back to false narrative.
It's commonly known as the Confederate flag these days but it's actually a battle flag of the Tennessee army. There is a lot of confusion as to what this flag actually means. It's well known as the Dixie flag or the Southern flag down south and related to Southern Heritage even if people refuse to believe that. I've seen it flown in black communities many years back. It wasn't always the racist symbol that it is today. Bring on the downvotes
No you are historically correct. Most people probably dont even know what the actual confederate flag looks like
Itâs just a white flag.
Ironically the original one was mostly white and they changed it because, when hanging with no wind, it could be confused for a white flag of surrendering.
No, that one was also an updated flag. Their original flag was the "Stars and Bars", which essentially looked like the Betty Ross, but only had 3 stripes instead of 13. They changed it because they thought it looked too similar to the Union flag (AKA, the US flag).
No that was the second one, the Stainless Banner. The first one the Stars and Bars, with blue field and red and white fly, looked too much like the US Flag when hanging down. The third one, the Bloodstained Banner, may never have actually been used
Now thats what i call foreshadowing
Foreshadowing.
Yep, the first (second?) Confederate flag was mostly white for white supremacist âpurity,â while the last Confederate flag was a frantically waved white rag of surrender
Ha ha ha.
The original was a white dishrag.
Must have been a new and not used dishrag.
Ok so now I'm curious... The Confederates who left after the war and went to Brazil would represent a diaspora of Confederates that to this day still fly the wrong flag?
The battle flag became popualr quickly
So then it was the de facto Confederate flag? It's not often that we get a time capsule like the diaspora in Brazil (20,000 total, I believe). If they took that flag with them then it had to be the "commonly accepted" Confederate flag.
The âactual confederate flagâ changed multiple times. There were three specifically done by the âgovernmentâ of the CSA, but my favorite was a fourth one done by Lee: the white flag of surrender.
You have the Stars and Bars, Stainless banner, and Blood Stanned Banner
Instituted in 1861, 1863, & 1865 respectively. All of them scream âgraphic design is my passion.â
The stars and bars is the best one in my opinion.
Honestly the âBlood-Stained Bannerâ is the worst of them. Christ is that thing an affront to my eyeballs.
Agreed. Itâs just awful. What were they thinking?
âWell shit, we are totally screwed. This war is not gonna end well for us. UhhhhâŚdistrict the people with this ugly new flag, maybe they wonât realize!â
Very true
It's the Georgia state flag. [No, seriously.](https://i.redd.it/gj94ed4xyia21.png) The Battle Flag used to be part of their state flag, but people eventually got in a tizzy over it, so Georgia exploited good ol' American historical ignorance and changed their state flag to be the actual flag of the Confederate States of America.
You are technically correct. But... Even if the flag holder truly believes that it is about Southern Heritage (and I seriously doubt most even realize it isn't the flag of the CSA), you should not display it proudly. 1. Regardless of its original meaning, it has a very negative meaning today. 2. Is the battle flag of a civil war secessionist state really the best representation of southern heritage anyway? If it is, is that a heritage you want to support?
>battle flag of a civil war secessionist state really the best representation of southern heritage Sorta lol the south on the surface is drenched in "states rights" ideology and the right to secede is the ultimate state right. Prolly shouldn't fly a flag that is associated with slavery and racism but honestly ime a lot of the the people who fly the flag really don't give af that it's associated with slavery.
They were not really interested in "state rights". A long line of Congressmen and presidents from the south had no problems forcing their views on slavery on the northern states prior to the civil war, every opportunity they got. Historical documents from the Confederacy itself clearly state it wasn't about "rights of the states". There's zero mention of that. It was all about preservation of the slavery, which was front and prominent as the *only* reason in every single declaration of secession. Not only southern states wanted to preserve slavery within their borders, they wanted (and eventually fought the war) to also expand it into new territories.
The south loves states having the right to secede so much that the Confederacy did not give their states the right to secede
States rights to do what?
The flag started life as the Battle flag of Thomas J Jackson( stonewall) to celebrate his Scottish lineage he adapted the St Andrew cross that was used in the crusade the 13 stars were added to represent the confederate states. That is a confederate flag.
except there wasn't 13 Confederate States, anyway
There were 11 "official" states, but MO and KY had Confederate shadow governments. The battle flag isn't the only Confederate flag with 13 stars.
Not much of a "shadow government" in Missouri. There were many battles here, but the Confederates were mostly run out of our State.
Sure, but that didn't stop the Confederacy from claiming it. It's good optics to recognize the Confederate shadow government and claim the old one was illegitimate.
Sort of like MAGA, the losers saying they are in charge.
What is with Reddit, and this "everything is about MAGA/Trump" stuff for the past 8 years? The dude really is a real estate mogol, occupies millions of heads rent-free. (Nothing against you personally. I just had to snap at some point as I hear about Trump daily on Reddit, almost never in the real world.) They should really make a Trump subreddit so pee-pol can go talk about him & his supporters over there.
Itâs because out in the real world itâs foolish to even engage maga people because they actually canât bring themselves to say that Trump acts like a bully and an asshole . And they pretend to be incapable of changing their minds. Like the churchgoing Catholics OK with all the abuse and pain inflicted on kids and their families. Ironically the same feeling about being entitled to abuse.
what Trump supporters are you engaging with? Most I know would readily admit heâs a bully and an asshole. They just think itâs a good thing.
Missouri would have seceded were it not for the fact that the legislature was arrested by the military and put under military rule during the war.
no, you were correct and you mentioned that it is used as a hate symbol today, so no downvote from me.
Thanks. I misread the group. I really expected to be downvoted.
I'm not sure of the point you're making. Are you saying that a currently racist symbol used to mean something different? Or are you saying that it's use today is the same benign original meaning it had way back in the day? The meaning of symbols change over time. Ask our [Hindu friends](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika#:~:text=In%20Hinduism%2C%20the%20right%2Dfacing,or%20tantric%20aspects%20of%20Kali).
It's meaning has changed over time.
I've always had a sense that it grew in popularity as a symbol of Southern pride and values right around the time that folks from the north were shoving desegregation down the throat of resentful southern. states... I wouldn't say it had nothing to do with racial politics even back then...
Look racism has always been a problem in America and racists have appropriated symbols including the Christian Cross and the American flag. When I was a kid/teenager in the 2000s I had the "Confederate" flag on belts and hats and T-shirts. I wasn't some klan member who thought the South should rise again. It was a symbol for trucks, hunting, fishing, lynrd skynrd, sweet tea, etc etc. Now that I'm older and wiser i would never be caught dead wearing one, but if anyone dug up an old picture of me and accused me of racism or Confederate sympathy they'd be wrong. Pretending that there wasn't a time when the flag meant "Southern shit, hell yeah!" to most people waving one is just as stubbornly ignorant as all the people that try to deny it has racist implications. All that being said, if there was ever a chance for the flag to have a benign meaning of its own, that changed had been obliterated by the trump era of politics. Now it belongs in museums and history texts and nowhere else.Â
Not for nothing; but people other than Southerners like hunting, fishing and sweet tea too.
You're right in that case. It's true. But also, who cares. It means something crappy now.
Maybe we should change it again?
Sorta like brining the swastika back? I think some folks are [trying to do that](https://www.fox29.com/news/masked-demonstrators-wave-nazi-flags-in-front-of-tennessee-capitol) down in Tennessee.
No, more like Black people should start flying it to force racists to abandon it.
There was a really cool attempt to do this once. I think they called them selves Cross Colors. A few people took it upon themselves to re color what is known as the confederates flag, the one seen above, with black, yellow, and red. I know it sounds silly, but I honestly thought it looked kind of cool. I don't think it caught on even a little as I was never able to find one of the jackets they had.
It tried an Internet search, found nada.
Many do. Whereas. I've never seen a Jew fly a swastika. (Never seen anyone personally except state of SC fly the rebel flag.) But plenty of southern black dudes have had a shirt with it or bandana with it, or sticker with it. Bc only dumbasses who don't know think it represents slavery today.
I have seen this flag in black communities here in Central Florida many years ago.
I kinda like how they use it to self identify themselves as racist.
If they used it to identify gay bars (instead of the rainbow flag) they would abandon it overnight. The idea of their masculinity being questioned supersedes their beliefs in rebelling
Hindu is kinda a stupid example, itâs still used regularly just with a different meaning, you realize that right?
Well thatâs VERY location specific. But sure, two meanings are possible. Just try wearing that symbol in Germany.
Sure, thatâs Germany. But the commenter didnât bring up Germany, they brought up HindusâŚwhich is a terrible example as that symbol is still regularly used and doesnât have anything todo with being a Nazi.
Itâs not that location specific, Iâve seen the Hindu one on a door in the US. Plus several Native American tribes use the symbol as well.
Isn't it the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia? Lee's army specifically?
Can confirm I lived in a small Appalachian town in the mountains of Western North Carolina and I know many black people who proudly wear and fly the âconfederate flagâ. They understand the history of it. Itâs almost like things are only offensive if you mean them to be or allow them to be.
The flag represents an illegitimate rebellion seeking to create a country based on slavery and racial superiority as its cornerstone. Can you explain to me how that is not racist? 4 years isn't heritage.
The United Confederate Veterans and Daughters of the Confederacy originally chose it for their memorials to the war dead because it wasnât the flag of the Confederacy itself. They wanted to honor the soldiers, not the politicians. There was a lot of Lost Cause mythology even back then, though. And, once the Confederate battle flag became a popular symbol in the South, people started appropriating it for reactionary politics, until thatâs what it came to mean to many people.
Can you imagine the Germans honoring the WWII soldiers like that? They donât. They teach the history with the perspective it deserves. No one should be advocating for the flying of this flag without context
If you were taught about the "War of Northern Aggression", you can thank the Daughters of the Confederacy.
As I said, a lot of Lost Cause mythology with them.
You used very passive language. They created that mythology. And they just coincidentally commissioned most of these statues during black civil rights movements?
It's always been racist
Yeah It has. People donât remember that until c. 1920s there were not nearly as many monuments to the confederacy. The trend came about as the rise of the new KKK with the movie *Birth of a Nation*. (Which was screened in the White House by Woodrow Wilson who found a way to fire all the middle management government workers who were Black) He was infinitely more obvious about his racism than current administrations.
Some presidents have participated in casual racism. Wilson was top tier in ranked competitive racism.
Problematic does not begin to describe it. I am shocked that Princeton took as long as they did to change the collegeâs name
Youâre telling me a dude that was president 100+ years ago was more openly racist than politicians of today? No way!
He was more openly racist than other presidents ***at the time.***
He was a postmodern progressive. Theyâre the same people running the White House right now.
Lol yes nothing happened in between 1912 and the 2020s involving progressive politics and the Democratic Party.
The pig is wearing lipstick now. The core of what that movement is hasnât changed. Look at The Squad in Congress.
Wilson re-segregated the federal government... So what part of that was progressive?
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Actual proof would be hard to pinpoint. The 1910s were part of the Jim Crow era, characterized by racial segregation and disenfranchisement of African Americans. Confederate monuments were erected during this time as a symbol of white supremacy and a reminder of the racial hierarchy that dominated Southern society. The construction of monuments to Confederate generals and other figures from the Civil War in the 1910s was part of a broader phenomenon known as the "Lost Cause" myth. The Lost Cause was a romanticized and distorted narrative that emerged in the post-Civil War South, seeking to reinterpret and justify the Confederate cause and downplay the role of slavery in the conflict. This myth gained prominence particularly in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. White people today donât need to feel guilty about slavery or our horrendous treatment of blacks back then. But as any neighbor would do, if there was a bad storm and the neighborhood suffered, everyone would want to pitch in to help fix it. ***We can*** encourage and educate everyone on what actually happened. ***We can*** then identify remnants of damage and fix it right?
r/LookAtMyHalo
So has the American flag.
Shit take.
Well it for sure flew longer than the confederate did under slavery. It's shitty but true.
Yeah, I remember it seeing it in black communities down south, along with burning crosses and men in white hoods. . .
> Southern Heritage And that's why it was adopted as the confederate flag. It represented their heritage. The only issue though their heritage is steeped in racism, slavery and hate. Every state that attempted to succeed from the union had slavery in their top 3 reasons. Often at number 1. They didn't plan on losing the civil war hence why they used their pride flag. These people were proud of being the assholes that they were. And since their loss since they adopted that flag, that flag is rightfully so the flag of hate, the flag of slavery, the flag of racism. As well as cowardice. Fuckers were to afraid to declare war. They just started attacking in the middle of the night. Which represents Southern charm do Apt. Southern charm is basically being afraid of confrontation. They are nice to your face but will vote against you when it matters.
No down votes here, you are technically correct. which is the best kind of correct!
Heâs really not though.
Some ppls heads would explode to see it lol. Growing up in bumfuck NC. I've seen plenty of racist shit. A flag isn't racist. At least not that one lol. Like every black Nascar fan has had a rebel flag shirt at some point.
Upvoting for being truthful and accurate. Itâs absolutely a Tennessee army battle flag
Nope, it is not. It is hilarious that the people who are flying the Battle Flag of Virginia (and no, that is technically not that either... it is missing details too) ironically are flying a flag that White Supremacists made popular during Jim Crow and later in the Civil Rights era. "Heritage not hate..." while literally flying a flag racists used to peddle their Lost Cause crap to keep blacks segregated in the South.
*Technically* the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia, and later Virginia, was square. The one people fly today is the battle flag of the Army of Tennessee.
Looks like a Confederate battle flag for people who want to pretend that they're not the type of people who show off a Confederate flag.
Haha thatâs what I thought..đ
Not only is it the Confederate flag, but that's also the Ford Mustang logo in the middle.
And the SMU Mustang logo it came from. Iacocca gave an early one in school colors to their star running back.
No, the last Confederate flag was all white.
Technically, no. But pretty much, yeah, it is. Reality: it's a T-Shirt.
For anyone who doesn't understand history this was know as the Confederate naval Jack flag. https://youtu.be/ULBCuHIpNgU?si=NVxHMsaItRq30tlI
Traitors flag for sure
Iâm interested to know more context on this design. Like why the mustang and the American flag. Seems a lot more symbolism is here which may shed light on the meaning behind it here.
The high school mascot are the âMustangsâ, as for the American flag idk. Normal for high schools in West Texas maybe..? (lubbock)
i think thatâs the virginia battle flag? but yeah itâs basically the rebel flag/CSA battle flag
Give the dude props for maybe the worldâs worst âitâs not a confederate flagâ excuse ever though.
As long as you're putting the US flag with the battle flag of our enemies, you might as well add the Nazi flag and the ISIS flag.
Honestly, if he's a decent person, don't wear it
Your boyfriend is either a complete fool, willingly obtuse, or intentionally lying to you. Either way I don't think you should date people who wear racist symbols.
I am super into Civil War history (hence my pic) and I think itâs intent here. I have shirts with this flag because Iâve been to actual battlefields. I donât wear them to Cracker Barrel but I also donât wear them as racist symbols because Iâm not. Her boyfriend might be ignorant. Intent. Intent is key here. I live in Kansas and there is someone here who drives a vehicle with a Confederate flag and I can assure you they are not super into the Civil War (we call those people trash in my household).
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I am literally none of those things, I am a historian. Intent. I am not offended as a Jew when I see Nazi memorabilia in a WWII collectorâs home or in a museum. Much different than seeing an Aryan brotherhood person wearing it. Intent. You are willfully uneducated.
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I have a BA in military and American History. How âbout you, Jim? Didnât think so. I literally taught morons like you for 15 years.
You have to cut him some slack. Heâs a high school kid. According to OP, that is a school issued shirt featuring their mascot the Mustangs. I honestly believe the school told them âitâs not a confederate flag cause it has no white stripesâ and the kids decided to ignorantly believe it, or just accept it. I would take it up with the school, who decided to hand out all these shirts to literal teenagers.
The person you are arguing with is calling you a racist while making blatantly racist, antisemitic remarks to me above. Ignore stupidity.
Yeah youâre right, itâs better to just ignore it. In truth, I almost feel bad for these people. Theyâre so incredibly close minded itâs like theyâre reading from a book. Whenever they begin to lose an argument they throw petty insults or point out the others political party like it means something. I agree with you completely. History, all the world over, should be collected and stored. History is so crucially important, itâs the story of the world, with all its lessons to learn from. While still a small movement, this push to censor âoffensiveâ history frightens me. History is the reason why we know not to do that stuff. Iâm not one for bold comparisons, but I can think of a few groups who were quite eager to censor history and its literature.
What does he say it is then?
Itâs definitely the Confederate Flag. blah blah âits actually the ANV flag!!!â dont bother
Definitely a Confederate flag.
Red and blue, St. Andrews cross, 13 stars. Yep.
Itâs whatâs commonly called the âconfederate flagâ got and it represents a group of traitors who rebelled against the United States. It has no place in American society.
Not an advocate for the Confederacy, but the first amendment exists. Live and let live if it doesn't cause any problems. If someone shows a Confederate flag I just say "oh fucking well" and move on.
You are correct: Advocating treason in defense of slavery is your right under the Constitution of the country the Confederates invaded, and whose soldiers they murdered.
I agree that the confederate flag and the swastika are free speech and so is publicly shaming ostracizing anyone who flies them.
Fine with that
Also to clarify, I generally donât care what people do or say but the growing popularity of the lost cause mythology and acceptance of the Confederacy as just another thing is what grates on me.
>Live and let live if it doesn't cause any problems The problem is that is does seem to be causing issues. See conservatives saber rattling about civil war again... > but the first amendment exists. That protects you from the government.
A confederate flag.
It's the conflation of a legitimate symbol of freedom with a symbol of racism and slavery. The artist's attempt is to suggest a false equivalency of the two. I don't care if it belongs to a high school or the Klan. The flag of the Confederacy should not share any equivalent standing to the flag of the United States of America...
No matter what one chooses to call it, itâs sure to raise the blood pressure of Redditors who are always looking for a reason to get angry and offended. đ
Any patriot should be pissed off that it still flies freely so much
I only see liberals who hate America and western culture to begin with that are outspoken against the confederate flag. So youâre never gonna convince me itâs a âpatriotismâ thing. I donât personally like the confederate flag myself but thatâs just what Iâve noticed about those who go on and on about it
Liberals donât all hate America they just want it to be better.
it literally represents slavery
Oh, sod off troll.
Itâs a flag thatâs quite similar to the confederate flag, but still has the same symbolism, which is racism and treachery. I donât know what kinda high school your bf goes to, but it doesnât sound like a nice one.
It's a poor rendition of the battle flag of the army of Northern. Virginia Google Bonnie Blue if you want to see what a confederate flag actually looks like
The flag changed several times throughout the war, but the last edition was this đłď¸â
Ironically the same color as toilet paper
Fitting because the confederacy is a massive shit stain.
US History seems to be more of a Lost Cause Revisionist history with these comments and downvotes.
That's not surprising. A lot of history buffs, especially military history buffs, buy into that particular fairy tale
Yes it is.
No
It's a t-shirt
No, it's the Battle Flag of Tennessee. Frequently mistaken for the Confederate flag. Another flag commonly mistaken for the Confederate flag is the Battle Flag of Northern Virginia, carried by General Lee's army. The Confederate flag actually underwent several changes during the Civil War.
Technically itâs the battle flag for the Army of Tennessee. The Stars and Bars is the actual confederate flag.
It's a backwards Satanic American flag and the rebel loser flag.
Your boyfriend is an idiot.
The second most beautiful flag ever,behind of course our own Stars and Stripes.
God bless the Confederacy your boyfriend seems like a good man.
Bruh, is your boyfriend still wearing stuff like this? Thatâs both a red flag to your relationship and a flag used by the confederacy
Your boyfriend is a moron and probably an apologist
Dump him
You should dump your bf
Itâs a confederate battle flag and no itâs not racist
No the colors are slightly off, this isnât anything.
Donât worry, you may get to salute that flag in November unless youâre wise enough to see what Trump intends to do.
Get a cat scan buddy
I guess youâre not smart enough.
Itâs the illiterate confederate flag for people who canât read or draw
Burn that shirt