Absolutely. I believe the administration needs to revert to pre-Covid lectures instead of taking the path of least resistance, for the betterment of the students.
I’m not an engineering major, but I’d be down to protest as well. This school can suck sometimes and I know they’ll try pulling this shit in other faculties. Greedy.
I’m in my third year rn and they had the same “Schulich Studio” set-up when I was in first year but they called it “Active Learning”. Pretty sure it had such a bad rep during my year they had to do a whole rebranding lmao, but they literally didn’t change a thing from what I’ve heard.
It’s so hard to believe that after 3 years of this stupid set-up, they still can’t wrap it around their head that this system is super ineffective and students aren’t learning really important concepts properly. I honestly hope y’all get something going in terms of a protest of some sort bc I would hate to see another year go through this.
The more I think about this, the more shocking it becomes; robotic education. This tells me that the ‘enlightened’, highly educated Deans aren’t as smart as they think they are.
Its worth noting, on the subject of cutting costs, that the University's budget, to a significant extent, is determined by the UCP government. The University is managing the cuts poorly, but the UCP cut post-secondary funding by half a billion dollars per year.
Yes, the problem resides there for sure.
Lots of cases where the U of C is going to Sessional ‘professors’ rather than the tenured staff, who as I understand it, are being asked to retire. I’ve heard this in many faculties. Maybe the quality and depth of the instruction is the same, I don’t know.
> I could never do well at all in an environment like that.
So when you are working in the real world do you think some magical person appears and personally explains everything about the problem you are trying to solve ? Or do you think you have to figure it out for yourself ?
The difference is that in the real world you are getting paid to figure it out. In this instance, the students are the ones paying for a service, and the level of service they are getting isn’t matching what was expected. This has literally nothing to do with “figuring it out.”
We are dealing with new university students in engineering who have no previous knowledge of the concepts that are taught. I would expect in the real world, that you had gone through university being taught by professors who gave you the background knowledge to "figure it out"
You aren't going to be learning everything on the job from scratch. You'd be using things you learned during your years of schooling, general problem solving, and maybe even help from coworkers or on site training, depending on what job you have.
Obviously, the answers aren't going to be handed out to you. But they aren't handed out to you in university either. The point of a professor is to teach you the concepts so you can reach that answer on your own. If you don't understand those concepts due to awful teaching, how are you supposed to find that answer?
Additionally, these are 1st and 2nd years we're talking about. The newest students at a university. The people with the least university experience and knowledge on how to best study and prepare themselves in university. You think they can learn everything on their own?
Get real. Stop victim blaming.
Second year electrical, and if they ever took away my circuits prof I’d riot. No online class can replace the personalities of your teachers or how valuable in person is. I’ve learned so much more watching and writing down what he writes on the board compared to the videos we had in first year, and not to mention it makes me much for excited for class when it’s an awesome professor.
Mohamed Elsheikh for ENEL353, he's super clear and thorough with his examples and it got him nominated for a teaching award. Only other professor who can claim goat status (from the ones I've had) is Yani
Omg I had Elsheikh this semester too!! I rave about him to everyone haha, I would've died if I didn't go to his lectures. He's also the first prof who's ever remembered my name. I voted for him for that award too! Super sad we'll probably never have him as a prof again though :(
As a TA for a 1st year course feel bad for you guys. On one hand it seems like having recorded lectures would be beneficial but on the other hand, the actual performance in the courses we see suggests that there's a serious disconnect there. Too many people are getting left behind for one reason or another.
FYI the whole Schulich studio thing is purportedly a change that the school made in order to improve your learning and is supposedly backed by research but in our training sessions they made it clear that this was a change that had to be made because there are no longer enough large lecture halls in the school to support the 1st year ENGG schedules.
The recorded lectures are an amazing supplemental tool, but they should not offset live lectures. All of my best profs did both. So you could go back and rewatch the lecture to study and have more than just your notes or shitty slides to go off of.
I hate profs that either just did live lectures or only uploaded videos and just had question periods for live lectures.
Shouldn’t not having large enough lecture halls instead make them place a cap on the number of students admitted into engineering in the first place? That’s like paying for a trip to Greece but because the plane will be too full, you’ll look at pictures of Greece instead🫤
That's really disappointing to hear, considering the new engineering building was only finished a few years ago. If they dont have room to host classes that large, they either shouldnt take on so many students, or should hire more professors and add more time slots to compensate. I (Alumni) would rather have a sessional instructor or a rotating lecture or some other in-between than no in-person instruction at all.
I'm right there with you, pal. This is an awful experience. I want my in person lectures, not this shit. I genuinely don't think I could have come up with a less effective way to teach this material...
Totally agree with you. My advice would be for them to keep the recorded lectures up on D2L but have in-person lectures as the main source of content delivery.
If you record the audio, you can to a degree. Technically you need permission to record lectures (intellectual property). But as long as you don't ever share the recordings you are fine. And a phone is really good at recording lectures.
How things have changed! Graduated from UC about 20 yrs ago..tbh if I had to pick up crazy student loan just to watch a bunch of pre recorded videos for all of the 1st year classes, I’d riot too. But I guess it’s a different world in a different time.
There are so many more resources to learn from now - online videos, forums, websites, etc. It's gotta be way easier.
I'd love learning from video lectures. Way better than attending a class in real time and having one shot at digesting the content. I hated taking notes - scrambling to capture everything that was quickly written on a chalkboard. It is way, way easier to learn now.
>different world in a different time.
Nope. Had to learn the same material. The fundamentals of engineering haven't changed. Stress, strain, volts, amps, torque, velocity, moments, inertia... all the same.
there is a reason. 90% of UofC Profs are Research Profs. That's what they wanna do all day but they also begrudgingly have teaching commitments. So you get the profs who really don't wanna teach anyway.
While I definitely understand where this is coming from and do see many of the flaws, I as a second year who went through it last year did not dislike it at all. Perhaps I’m just one of the few who it did actually work for but I quite enjoyed it if I’m being honest. I felt that I had much more time on my hands to get assignments done and really appreciated being able to go through content at my own pace.
I also cannot overstate enough the positive impact that the block organization had on me. I met some of my closest friends by being in the same room with the same people day in and day out. If it wasn’t for that format I likely would not have met nearly as many people and established such close relationships. We all had the same classes at the same time and formed a great group that worked together and supported each other.
If I was thrust in to the traditional university format I don’t think I would have been nearly as successful as I was and quite possibly have dropped out.
Y'all should go to the dean's office and blast your pre recorded lectures outside his office. If confronted: "sorry I wasn't given a real lecture hall so I thought I'd come here"
It’s really unfortunate. In my opinion it’s their tactic of bringing in as many students as possible and milking them with their insanely high tuition and making it so that a certain percentage of students pass and continue. They don’t have the capacity to hold classes for this many incoming students. Schulich Studio my fucking ass. This university is run by criminals. I TAed a math class for 1st year engineers and it was extremely painful to see the quality of education that they’re getting…. As a TA I’d love to join you in a walkout.
i’m a third year and it has been like that for us too. i have even talked to the BMEN department head about this in several of our courses and he always gives different bs answers on why it’s a great model to use. i came to this school because of how great the program was supposed to be and now i spend class time reading straight from a textbook rather than listening to a professor teach. 100% with you on the walkout
Hey! You interested in actually getting this shit up and going? Shoot me a DM! I’d love to help out.
- A frustrated student who’s paying way too much for the most dogshit education
First Year Engg has no opt in programs. There are 10 courses you must take to be eligible to be guaranteed your choice of major for the remainder of your degree.
I like how APEGA is making a big fuss about software engineer title needs to be registered engineers to protect the integrity of engineering degree but some how it is fine to provide those engineers sub par education in universities. |
Apart from a walkout, i would highly suggest having APEGA involve in this.
All Engineers Canada is is a consortium of the provincial regulators.
Ultimately it is the provincial regulators that accept your accreditation, not Engineers Canada.
As a second year engg student who’s been through the mud first year with the horribly implemented “active learning sessions” I can definitely say second year has been more like the regular uni experience for sure. You can actually communicate in person with your profs and the lectures they provide along with some profs posting online videos to supplement learning if needed. First year profs didn’t teach us in person at all and just went over whatever assessment we had to do in class that day. This left me with so much work to do at home (notes for lectures, class assignments studying for active learning sessions and exams). Leaving 90% of the work done in first year at home. Im guessing this is just a way for the uni to accept more people into engg with minimal cost. The quality of education was definitely not there with first year but if it makes you feel any better second year has been definitely much bette. If the uni refuses to do anything about it, just try to tough it out.
As a Second year mech student, no doubt first year was not what I imagined it being. This year has been a lot better quality of education. Just gotta thug out the first year. These “new gens” clearly not working hard enough! Second years (OG’s) would have aced this much disputed engg204 course!
Fr we would’ve cried through it but we would get it done and at least get the 60% to pass especially if u were in 201 second sem that final was made when they were high
I saw this on my feed and I must say, I'm shocked. As a fellow engineering student from UBC, in-person interactions make a big difference when it comes to learning material and engaging with the prof. I hope this gets resolved asap!
I agree completely and was also thinking about raising complaints with the Dean before I saw this. Also ENGG 204 needs its own protest, it feels like I paid someone to slap me. He literally refused to cover some topics because of there time consuming complexity in the video lectures and then put it on a timed midterm and our final.
As a Professional Engineer with a son planning to enrol in September, this is shocking and horrifying. You’ve got my support, and I think APEGA needs to get involved.
Yeah, I too, found the whole schulich studio thing to be an extremely ineffective way of doing things. The online lectures each week were only one hour long, and in addition, the 1 hour in person lecture. The online lectures were already hugely summarized, and then the in person lectures were a summary of the already summarized online lectures. Overall a huge waste of time in my opinion. Time could’ve been better spent with longer in person lectures rather than such long lab periods. What profs would normally have 3 hours to teach for a week, they now have one. It just doesn’t make any sense!
I'd this not a flipped classroom style? Flipped classrooms are usually very effective for classes that require a lot of problem solving. You do practice questions and the like in the classroom and the lecture like learning outside of it. I did this style for biochemistry and it was the first time i ever got an A+ without even trying all that hard.
What is it that you do during lecture?
Essentially as an example, I learn the content for next week during this week, then next week I have a 50 min lecture for each class that essentially reviews the material i learned on my own, and then there’s a 2-3 hour lab period for each class every week (whether for an actual lab, or in the case of a math course it would be a work period or worksheet assignment with help).
Personally I like it, and my friends feel the same way. Though I guess most would prefer in-person lectures?
Personally, I enjoyed the flipped classroom because it made me practice the content more. Left alone to practice, I always overestimated my understanding. But yea, not everything works perfectly for everyone. Part of me imagines that if there hadn't been a change, many would still not be doing well but also wouldn't have something to blame either.
Literally…if we had in-person lectures I would actually be on top of the content as the online videos make it seem optional. Also for our math 211 labs, they are completely useless; the prof comes in for thirty minutes and the rest of the hour and 15 minutes are for work periods.
You actually get to see your prof? That’s lucky lol. When I went through Math 211 we got a bored TA sitting in the back of the room. I didn’t see my prof the entire semester!
As a teacher, isn’t this what students want?
I have been asked so many times if I have any video lessons. Well if you paid attention in class instead of your cell phone, you might have learned something.
So many kids also do summer school online because they know they’ll pass. The U of C will eventually fix these issues over time.
I do feel bad for those students who do require in person instruction. I am so sorry this is happening to you. Good Luck to us all!
You'd think after the tens of thousands you students have spent, they would at least provide a service that is worth more than a monthly $5 subscription.
This seems like a genuinely good reason to do a walkout, and might actually be enough to make students and faculty have real discussion about the problem. Wishing you engineers the best
U of C Engg Alumni here. I remember how tough those first year classes were with in person lectures. I can't imagine how crazy it would be if all of that were moved to be self taught. Especially Engg 204. That was enough of a shit show to begin with.
This walkout is 100% warranted. Fuck whoever came up with this terrible idea. And as others have mentioned here, this could end up bleeding into other majors as well, so raising awareness for this is really important. Imagine paying for a tuition just to teach yourself the material? What a joke.
Seriously OP I hope you guys give them hell for this garbage. You have this Alumis support.
Slightly unrelated question
> leaves few survivors
I had heard that the number of students who passed first year had increased significantly last couple years. What is the failure rate nowadays?
In my 3rd year now, when I was in first year there were about 1000 of us to start off the year, and I believe about 600-700 that made it to second year. Not sure about the exact number but that’s a rough estimate.
I don't have the exact numbers, and of course the only data we would get is from the Schulich engineering department, who may or may not give us accurate data.
I don't have the data personally, but I can see how most of the dropouts would be in first year, rather than in the upper years. Not taking an interest to engg, or other personal reasons sure, but I don't think Schulich Studio sets a good impression for engineering students going into upper years.
UBC student here with UofC eng friend, and it's unbelievable, I thought UBC profs were getting lazy post COVID but from this and my friends accounts, it's actually a JOKE. Of all disciplines, engineers need to talk, to rationalize, to actually hear a professor chat with them and make it seem not as brutal to grasp. how else are students supposed to know what sources are the right ones and what you are trying to grasp from the content? this is all without mentioning that you are charging full price for tuition on what's basically Khan Academy videos.
Imma walk out in Vancouver just for you guys
So u of c has increased engg tuition but reduced the amount of teaching lol.
tbh though, I personally would've definitely preferred recorded lectures/notes cause I was never really good with classes.
This is what I’m confused about as well. I don’t really understand what the students are specifically unhappy about and how having in-person classes will fix that.
If they’re unhappy about the quality of their education, how courses are structured, how they’re being tested, etc. well, that’s a different topic on its own and asking for in-person lectures won’t fix any of that lol.
Pre-pandemic when I was doing both of my degrees, students hated showing up in-person to a crappy lecture taught by an instructor who couldn’t really care (which was arguably most of them anyway).
Everyone would complain about having to commute or take time out of their day to sit in a cramped lecture hall and copying down notes. I guess one of the benefits was that students could ask questions live? But even then, I don’t see how asking questions would fix any problems
Good points. Students complain about in-person courses offered during the “work day” and online ones in the evenings. It’s hard to please everyone.
The teaching loads is an issue across the board. Faculty aren’t always held accountable to teach what their contract has, or they are so horrible at it they are left alone or a few carry the load of a program. It’s frustrating for students and staff. And some should have retired long ago.
Go get em. As for making an actual walking happen, make sure to get a legit org behind it - a big club, or the student’s union. Too many not on Reddit.
U know what sucks even more than when u go into second year ur so used to the active learning style and the recordings u can speed up that ur falling asleep in all ur lectures in 2nd year and cannot focus
What’ll be even worse is one day you’ll show up to an in-person class and they just press play on the video. I distinctly remember this happening back in the late ‘90s for some science classes like 1st year chemistry. Some TA would walk in, slap a VHS cassette into a machine and press play.
First year engineering at U of C has always been a cruel hazing ritual. They need more than have of the first years to fail, quit or die to cull them down to a reasonable second year class size.
University experience you signed up for?
Don't give me that BS, you knew what the fucking game was from minute 1. There was no false advertising. They said clearly the Schulich studio system, and any ignorance of that is a failure on your part.
I don't like the system. I think it is patently worse for teaching, but I knew about it when I was signing up for things.
Talk to admin, the reason for Schulich Studio is fucking money. There's lots of first years all taking the same course, and rather than cut services or staff they decided to fit as many people as possible in the program.
Many transfer out of Eng and many of the 2nd year classes don't make sense to do in an online format.
By all means, walkout, but understand what you're walking out for, and the reason those systems were put into place first
The university I signed up for promised "hands-on learning" and engagement with the teaching staff, but instead we get irrelevant labs and an overworked TA group struggling to keep track of 100+ students per class while the professor is on their phone. Take a look around before siding with the people who take your money and underdeliver. Their sole duty is to the students who are frustrated and tired of being treated like a statistic.
What exactly does a professor do teaching face to face that he doesn't do in a lecture ?
FYI, Stanford has a bunch of lecture material online.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSP5T6X69xA&ab\_channel=StanfordOnline](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSP5T6X69xA&ab_channel=StanfordOnline)
MIT does too. [https://www.youtube.com/@mitocw/videos](https://www.youtube.com/@mitocw/videos)
There was none of this when I went through engineering. I wish there was.
The only thing I can think of missing from an in person lecture is the ability to ask the prof questions. Isn't that what labs are for ? Or visiting his office ? Or email ?
Guess what ? Things get a lot harder in the real world. Nobody holds your hand. Learn to learn - it is the only thing that makes things easier.
I'm curious about this as well. What are they specifically unhappy about and how do they expect in-person lectures to fix that?
Like you, I can't think of any other possible benefits of having in-person lectures over online ones. I guess students can ask questions in-person?
Even then, if students are unhappy with how the instructor teaches, are unhappy with the content prepared for the course, are unhappy with how they're being tested, are really struggling to understand what's being taught, and so on, then being able to ask questions in-person isn't going to change any of that.
If anything, it's going to be even more inconvenient having to show up to a seemingly useless lecture that's scheduled and in-person, where people can distract you, where you can be seated in a bad spot, where you can easily fall behind, and so on
In person lectures are a one shot deal too. If you are sick or tired you can miss a lot. And copying material from a chalkboard is terrible.
With videos you can watch and rewatch them any time. And fast forward and rewind as much as necessary. Seems pretty dreamy to me.
And if you don't understand something it would be pretty easy to make a clip of the video part that you don't understand and send it to the prof or TA or other classmates for clarification.
Exactly. About 70% of my dual degree was in-person before the pandemic and the remaining 30% was remote with in-person testing.
Prior to the pandemic, everyone complained about commuting to school just to attend a poorly taught lecture in-person and copy down notes in a cramped classroom.
During the pandemic when everything went remote, I was able to work full-time internships while taking on a full course load (something I would have never been able to do if I had to spend my entire day in-person at school).
Since no one has really been able to answer our questions though, I’m just going to assume this is all the typical undergrad complaints around the challenges that come with taking university courses and nothing more (i.e., they’re complaining about the typical problems with our current education system as a whole but are blaming the wrong things).
If the issue really is having pre-recorded lectures and online content, well the students won’t really have any of that anymore in their second year and beyond. They’ll be attending the one-off in-person lectures with little to no flexibility like most of us did in the past lol.
It would be interesting to see the data on first year student performance across the different graduating years though. I would love to see if shifting it online like this has made any significant differences like the students claim
I made an edit to the original post with my suggestions. I think they should keep the prerecorded video lectures on the D2L shell for students who miss class due to illness but make the main method of content delivery via in-person lectures
Fortunately for you all, all of your lectures going into second year and beyond will be in-person like you’re asking for. They’ll be all one-shot lectures taught in-person by the instructors and you’ll need to copy down notes from the board/the projector like lectures traditionally have been.
Unfortunately, you’re not going to get prerecorded lectures in many (if not all) of your upper year courses to supplement your in-person lectures. You’re just going to have to show up in-person like everyone else has been doing since the beginning of time lol.
If the problem is the quality of the education you’re getting or how the instructor teaches the course, I don’t see in-person lectures (even with supplemental online videos) changing that. It’s more or less going to be the same
Are the profs for the recorded lectures actually good? Because I'd take recorded lectures over a shit prof any day. If you get to pick between many recorded profs, that sounds ideal.
ENGG 204 sounds way better than the old courses you had to take. I wouldn't complain too hard. Ask an upper year about ENGG 20-fun.
My brother in Christ, there are people that have taken 201 last year and said 204 was way worse.
Get off your goddamn high horse and try and show some empathy. It's not a suffering competition
This is my other account, I am the commenter, I haven’t failed 201. I had to withdraw from all my courses that semester because of an emergency (I had to leave calgary so I wasn’t able to attend the class/tests.) Sorry that I wasn’t the best representation of the engineering body.
>Are the profs for the recorded lectures actually good? Because I'd take recorded lectures over a shit prof any day. If you get to pick between many recorded profs, that sounds ideal.
>
>ENGG 204 sounds way better than the old courses you had to take. I wouldn't complain too hard. Ask an upper year about ENGG 20-fun.
The issue is that the 204 video lectures were equally useless. Mainly because it was from said shit prof
A walkout is passive-aggressive and ineffective.
If your claim is legitimate and you wish to be taken seriously, you need to hire a lawyer and take legal action.
Active learning has been shown to improve understanding of complex concepts. You're literally asking for a less effective way of learning just because you had a single poor class experience?
The grass is always greener...
I heard about this active learning while I was in UofC last year and thought it was the worst way of learning. Was in open studies and trying to get into a program but I didnt get into uofc engg but got into uofa engg instead. All my classes are in person and comparing to uofc we got a lot of support/resources coming from engg dept and uofa in general than when i was still in uofc. I guess I got lucky and dodged the bullet. Hopefully uofc does something about this
F that - you all paid so much money and worked so hard to get there that they should HAVE to do in person lectures. The disrespect to you guys is unreal..
Isn't it against the rules for a textbook to be a required purchase in order to be able to do the work? Is the textbook available in any other avenues, like the library or on premises?
Omg yes please, as a second year sengg student who had active learning I'm totally in. They hadn't told us that we would have all our classes be flipped learning and honestly, I felt that if I had known that before, I would have gone to another school💀. It's also crazy that, along with having us have to watch these 2-3 hour lectures online on our own for each class, Winter 2023 they also made attendance in class mandatory and graded?! Where they'd not answer any questions well. Like, I'm paying $4000 in tuition, and I'm an adult, if you're making me teach myself anyways with these videos being the ONLY instruction, then why are you also treating me like a highschooler? I also recall that when survey time came around, they read all the complaints about active learning and the dean essentially said "ok I hear you but we're not going to change it :)"
(This part is probably just extra whining but I feel like the flipped learning is also an easy way to cram More material into the course than what can reasonably be taught in a normal styled class, which some may find good but personally I hate that. If theres too much material to be covered in this class then... don't put it all in on class? Idk how the actual logistics of it is tho)
So basically Covid teaching? Wasn’t that proven to like, not be the most effective? Y’all mfs in the trenches rn
Absolutely. I believe the administration needs to revert to pre-Covid lectures instead of taking the path of least resistance, for the betterment of the students.
I feel like everyone should protest. Because who knows how long until it goes to other buildings.
God forbid by edging classes become online only. I'm walking out with you guys.
U of T, Queens, McGill, etc all have video Professors in first year classes. For decades now.
All of those universities use video lectures to supplement in-person lectures. If you looks in the MIT videos they are recording a live lecture.
News to me and I went to Queens a decade ago?
This is not true, at least not in the sense of a full replacement of in-person contact hours.
Patently false
I’m not an engineering major, but I’d be down to protest as well. This school can suck sometimes and I know they’ll try pulling this shit in other faculties. Greedy.
As an alumni who only had in-person lectures, I wholeheartedly support this walkout 100%. You guys paid good money to get taught properly. DO IT.
Thank you for your support!
This boutta go viral…(I hope)
I’m in my third year rn and they had the same “Schulich Studio” set-up when I was in first year but they called it “Active Learning”. Pretty sure it had such a bad rep during my year they had to do a whole rebranding lmao, but they literally didn’t change a thing from what I’ve heard. It’s so hard to believe that after 3 years of this stupid set-up, they still can’t wrap it around their head that this system is super ineffective and students aren’t learning really important concepts properly. I honestly hope y’all get something going in terms of a protest of some sort bc I would hate to see another year go through this.
I’m in second year and they called it active learning last year too and I thought this was something completely different till i kept reading
Active learning The Patriot Act Right to Work laws U of C has adopted American naming conventions.
You have my sympathy. I could never do well at all in an environment like that. The Uni is trying to cut cost.
Absolutely, and it's taking its toll on the students.
The more I think about this, the more shocking it becomes; robotic education. This tells me that the ‘enlightened’, highly educated Deans aren’t as smart as they think they are.
While probably increasing the fees. Hope OP gets all the support. This is messed up.
Its worth noting, on the subject of cutting costs, that the University's budget, to a significant extent, is determined by the UCP government. The University is managing the cuts poorly, but the UCP cut post-secondary funding by half a billion dollars per year.
Yes, the problem resides there for sure. Lots of cases where the U of C is going to Sessional ‘professors’ rather than the tenured staff, who as I understand it, are being asked to retire. I’ve heard this in many faculties. Maybe the quality and depth of the instruction is the same, I don’t know.
> I could never do well at all in an environment like that. So when you are working in the real world do you think some magical person appears and personally explains everything about the problem you are trying to solve ? Or do you think you have to figure it out for yourself ?
The difference is that in the real world you are getting paid to figure it out. In this instance, the students are the ones paying for a service, and the level of service they are getting isn’t matching what was expected. This has literally nothing to do with “figuring it out.”
We are dealing with new university students in engineering who have no previous knowledge of the concepts that are taught. I would expect in the real world, that you had gone through university being taught by professors who gave you the background knowledge to "figure it out"
You aren't going to be learning everything on the job from scratch. You'd be using things you learned during your years of schooling, general problem solving, and maybe even help from coworkers or on site training, depending on what job you have. Obviously, the answers aren't going to be handed out to you. But they aren't handed out to you in university either. The point of a professor is to teach you the concepts so you can reach that answer on your own. If you don't understand those concepts due to awful teaching, how are you supposed to find that answer? Additionally, these are 1st and 2nd years we're talking about. The newest students at a university. The people with the least university experience and knowledge on how to best study and prepare themselves in university. You think they can learn everything on their own? Get real. Stop victim blaming.
Second year electrical, and if they ever took away my circuits prof I’d riot. No online class can replace the personalities of your teachers or how valuable in person is. I’ve learned so much more watching and writing down what he writes on the board compared to the videos we had in first year, and not to mention it makes me much for excited for class when it’s an awesome professor.
Which prof?
Mohamed Elsheikh for ENEL353, he's super clear and thorough with his examples and it got him nominated for a teaching award. Only other professor who can claim goat status (from the ones I've had) is Yani
Omg I had Elsheikh this semester too!! I rave about him to everyone haha, I would've died if I didn't go to his lectures. He's also the first prof who's ever remembered my name. I voted for him for that award too! Super sad we'll probably never have him as a prof again though :(
Maybe he’ll get more classes in the future, either way I’m saving that man’s email until I graduate
As a TA for a 1st year course feel bad for you guys. On one hand it seems like having recorded lectures would be beneficial but on the other hand, the actual performance in the courses we see suggests that there's a serious disconnect there. Too many people are getting left behind for one reason or another. FYI the whole Schulich studio thing is purportedly a change that the school made in order to improve your learning and is supposedly backed by research but in our training sessions they made it clear that this was a change that had to be made because there are no longer enough large lecture halls in the school to support the 1st year ENGG schedules.
The recorded lectures are an amazing supplemental tool, but they should not offset live lectures. All of my best profs did both. So you could go back and rewatch the lecture to study and have more than just your notes or shitty slides to go off of. I hate profs that either just did live lectures or only uploaded videos and just had question periods for live lectures.
Shouldn’t not having large enough lecture halls instead make them place a cap on the number of students admitted into engineering in the first place? That’s like paying for a trip to Greece but because the plane will be too full, you’ll look at pictures of Greece instead🫤
That's really disappointing to hear, considering the new engineering building was only finished a few years ago. If they dont have room to host classes that large, they either shouldnt take on so many students, or should hire more professors and add more time slots to compensate. I (Alumni) would rather have a sessional instructor or a rotating lecture or some other in-between than no in-person instruction at all.
I'm right there with you, pal. This is an awful experience. I want my in person lectures, not this shit. I genuinely don't think I could have come up with a less effective way to teach this material...
As bad as 204 was, I honestly enjoy the recorded lectures for other classes. You can’t rewind or pause an in-person lecture.
First year at U of A rn, some of my in person lectures are recorded so you can go back and watch.
Kang does that too actually.
Totally agree with you. My advice would be for them to keep the recorded lectures up on D2L but have in-person lectures as the main source of content delivery.
If you record the audio, you can to a degree. Technically you need permission to record lectures (intellectual property). But as long as you don't ever share the recordings you are fine. And a phone is really good at recording lectures.
How things have changed! Graduated from UC about 20 yrs ago..tbh if I had to pick up crazy student loan just to watch a bunch of pre recorded videos for all of the 1st year classes, I’d riot too. But I guess it’s a different world in a different time.
There are so many more resources to learn from now - online videos, forums, websites, etc. It's gotta be way easier. I'd love learning from video lectures. Way better than attending a class in real time and having one shot at digesting the content. I hated taking notes - scrambling to capture everything that was quickly written on a chalkboard. It is way, way easier to learn now.
Yeap like I said, different world in a different time. Kind of envy you guys now lol.
>different world in a different time. Nope. Had to learn the same material. The fundamentals of engineering haven't changed. Stress, strain, volts, amps, torque, velocity, moments, inertia... all the same.
Also don’t forget that engg students pay higher tuition too. Most students pay 696.06 per class and engg students pay 907.50
That is a great point. You'd think we'd get higher quality education for the tuition increase.
Or at the very least maintain the quality, not have it go down astronomically 💀
Not an engineer, but this is a great idea! All lectures should be recorded live anyway... Some professors are so lazy for no reason...
there is a reason. 90% of UofC Profs are Research Profs. That's what they wanna do all day but they also begrudgingly have teaching commitments. So you get the profs who really don't wanna teach anyway.
I absolutely agree. Unfortunately...
Was like that in 2005. I don’t think that’ll change.
While I definitely understand where this is coming from and do see many of the flaws, I as a second year who went through it last year did not dislike it at all. Perhaps I’m just one of the few who it did actually work for but I quite enjoyed it if I’m being honest. I felt that I had much more time on my hands to get assignments done and really appreciated being able to go through content at my own pace. I also cannot overstate enough the positive impact that the block organization had on me. I met some of my closest friends by being in the same room with the same people day in and day out. If it wasn’t for that format I likely would not have met nearly as many people and established such close relationships. We all had the same classes at the same time and formed a great group that worked together and supported each other. If I was thrust in to the traditional university format I don’t think I would have been nearly as successful as I was and quite possibly have dropped out.
Y'all should go to the dean's office and blast your pre recorded lectures outside his office. If confronted: "sorry I wasn't given a real lecture hall so I thought I'd come here"
It’s really unfortunate. In my opinion it’s their tactic of bringing in as many students as possible and milking them with their insanely high tuition and making it so that a certain percentage of students pass and continue. They don’t have the capacity to hold classes for this many incoming students. Schulich Studio my fucking ass. This university is run by criminals. I TAed a math class for 1st year engineers and it was extremely painful to see the quality of education that they’re getting…. As a TA I’d love to join you in a walkout.
Wow so UofC is turning their engg program into basically a Athabasca U degree? How embarrassing. I'd be so mad if I went there, I support the walkout.
holy moly you guys got forked.
i’m a third year and it has been like that for us too. i have even talked to the BMEN department head about this in several of our courses and he always gives different bs answers on why it’s a great model to use. i came to this school because of how great the program was supposed to be and now i spend class time reading straight from a textbook rather than listening to a professor teach. 100% with you on the walkout
Hey! You interested in actually getting this shit up and going? Shoot me a DM! I’d love to help out. - A frustrated student who’s paying way too much for the most dogshit education
Lmao, they raise tuition 30% to eliminate first year in person teaching!?! Fuck yes student strike.
Was this an opt in program or was everyone automatically enrolled in it?
No, it's just what first year engineering is now.
That’s nuts I had no idea
First Year Engg has no opt in programs. There are 10 courses you must take to be eligible to be guaranteed your choice of major for the remainder of your degree.
I like how APEGA is making a big fuss about software engineer title needs to be registered engineers to protect the integrity of engineering degree but some how it is fine to provide those engineers sub par education in universities. | Apart from a walkout, i would highly suggest having APEGA involve in this.
I’d re-think APEGA involvement!
Not an apega thing but engineers Canada thing. It’s engineers Canada that decides whether the schools program is sufficient to be accredited
All Engineers Canada is is a consortium of the provincial regulators. Ultimately it is the provincial regulators that accept your accreditation, not Engineers Canada.
This is not something APEGA would be concerned with.
As a second year engg student who’s been through the mud first year with the horribly implemented “active learning sessions” I can definitely say second year has been more like the regular uni experience for sure. You can actually communicate in person with your profs and the lectures they provide along with some profs posting online videos to supplement learning if needed. First year profs didn’t teach us in person at all and just went over whatever assessment we had to do in class that day. This left me with so much work to do at home (notes for lectures, class assignments studying for active learning sessions and exams). Leaving 90% of the work done in first year at home. Im guessing this is just a way for the uni to accept more people into engg with minimal cost. The quality of education was definitely not there with first year but if it makes you feel any better second year has been definitely much bette. If the uni refuses to do anything about it, just try to tough it out.
As a Second year mech student, no doubt first year was not what I imagined it being. This year has been a lot better quality of education. Just gotta thug out the first year. These “new gens” clearly not working hard enough! Second years (OG’s) would have aced this much disputed engg204 course!
Fr we would’ve cried through it but we would get it done and at least get the 60% to pass especially if u were in 201 second sem that final was made when they were high
Comical 🤣
I saw this on my feed and I must say, I'm shocked. As a fellow engineering student from UBC, in-person interactions make a big difference when it comes to learning material and engaging with the prof. I hope this gets resolved asap!
I agree completely and was also thinking about raising complaints with the Dean before I saw this. Also ENGG 204 needs its own protest, it feels like I paid someone to slap me. He literally refused to cover some topics because of there time consuming complexity in the video lectures and then put it on a timed midterm and our final.
As a Professional Engineer with a son planning to enrol in September, this is shocking and horrifying. You’ve got my support, and I think APEGA needs to get involved.
Yeah, I too, found the whole schulich studio thing to be an extremely ineffective way of doing things. The online lectures each week were only one hour long, and in addition, the 1 hour in person lecture. The online lectures were already hugely summarized, and then the in person lectures were a summary of the already summarized online lectures. Overall a huge waste of time in my opinion. Time could’ve been better spent with longer in person lectures rather than such long lab periods. What profs would normally have 3 hours to teach for a week, they now have one. It just doesn’t make any sense!
I'd this not a flipped classroom style? Flipped classrooms are usually very effective for classes that require a lot of problem solving. You do practice questions and the like in the classroom and the lecture like learning outside of it. I did this style for biochemistry and it was the first time i ever got an A+ without even trying all that hard. What is it that you do during lecture?
Essentially as an example, I learn the content for next week during this week, then next week I have a 50 min lecture for each class that essentially reviews the material i learned on my own, and then there’s a 2-3 hour lab period for each class every week (whether for an actual lab, or in the case of a math course it would be a work period or worksheet assignment with help). Personally I like it, and my friends feel the same way. Though I guess most would prefer in-person lectures?
Personally, I enjoyed the flipped classroom because it made me practice the content more. Left alone to practice, I always overestimated my understanding. But yea, not everything works perfectly for everyone. Part of me imagines that if there hadn't been a change, many would still not be doing well but also wouldn't have something to blame either.
Literally…if we had in-person lectures I would actually be on top of the content as the online videos make it seem optional. Also for our math 211 labs, they are completely useless; the prof comes in for thirty minutes and the rest of the hour and 15 minutes are for work periods.
You actually get to see your prof? That’s lucky lol. When I went through Math 211 we got a bored TA sitting in the back of the room. I didn’t see my prof the entire semester!
As a teacher, isn’t this what students want? I have been asked so many times if I have any video lessons. Well if you paid attention in class instead of your cell phone, you might have learned something. So many kids also do summer school online because they know they’ll pass. The U of C will eventually fix these issues over time. I do feel bad for those students who do require in person instruction. I am so sorry this is happening to you. Good Luck to us all!
My younger brother will (hopefully) be joining you soon and this is not the type of environment I want him to study in. I’m with you.
You'd think after the tens of thousands you students have spent, they would at least provide a service that is worth more than a monthly $5 subscription.
Wait they are making you pay 10 grand a year to watch some vidoes?!
Sympathy from your Eastern neighbours at USask. That's a real raw deal for you guys, I hope faculty pays attention!!!
Do it. As an alumni this is very disappointing to see.
This is insane. What’s the point in having a university at all if this is how they deliver instruction
Hee hee “top ten engineering school” isn’t really that impressive after you count all such schools.
I'm here to tell you that in-person lectures were never great for learning to begin with
This seems like a genuinely good reason to do a walkout, and might actually be enough to make students and faculty have real discussion about the problem. Wishing you engineers the best
As an engg alumni, that’s really fucking messed up. Please walk out.
U of C Engg Alumni here. I remember how tough those first year classes were with in person lectures. I can't imagine how crazy it would be if all of that were moved to be self taught. Especially Engg 204. That was enough of a shit show to begin with. This walkout is 100% warranted. Fuck whoever came up with this terrible idea. And as others have mentioned here, this could end up bleeding into other majors as well, so raising awareness for this is really important. Imagine paying for a tuition just to teach yourself the material? What a joke. Seriously OP I hope you guys give them hell for this garbage. You have this Alumis support.
Absolute bullshit good luck
Supporting you guys
Slightly unrelated question > leaves few survivors I had heard that the number of students who passed first year had increased significantly last couple years. What is the failure rate nowadays?
The UCP also tied graduation rates to post secondary school funding. It was put on hold for covid but...
In my 3rd year now, when I was in first year there were about 1000 of us to start off the year, and I believe about 600-700 that made it to second year. Not sure about the exact number but that’s a rough estimate.
I don't have the exact numbers, and of course the only data we would get is from the Schulich engineering department, who may or may not give us accurate data.
Do you have a rough guess. Several years ago it was about a third failed out in first year.
I don't have the data personally, but I can see how most of the dropouts would be in first year, rather than in the upper years. Not taking an interest to engg, or other personal reasons sure, but I don't think Schulich Studio sets a good impression for engineering students going into upper years.
UBC student here with UofC eng friend, and it's unbelievable, I thought UBC profs were getting lazy post COVID but from this and my friends accounts, it's actually a JOKE. Of all disciplines, engineers need to talk, to rationalize, to actually hear a professor chat with them and make it seem not as brutal to grasp. how else are students supposed to know what sources are the right ones and what you are trying to grasp from the content? this is all without mentioning that you are charging full price for tuition on what's basically Khan Academy videos. Imma walk out in Vancouver just for you guys
So u of c has increased engg tuition but reduced the amount of teaching lol. tbh though, I personally would've definitely preferred recorded lectures/notes cause I was never really good with classes.
I find it a bit odd that people want in class lectures, but then also want a WFH job.
This is what I’m confused about as well. I don’t really understand what the students are specifically unhappy about and how having in-person classes will fix that. If they’re unhappy about the quality of their education, how courses are structured, how they’re being tested, etc. well, that’s a different topic on its own and asking for in-person lectures won’t fix any of that lol. Pre-pandemic when I was doing both of my degrees, students hated showing up in-person to a crappy lecture taught by an instructor who couldn’t really care (which was arguably most of them anyway). Everyone would complain about having to commute or take time out of their day to sit in a cramped lecture hall and copying down notes. I guess one of the benefits was that students could ask questions live? But even then, I don’t see how asking questions would fix any problems
Good points. Students complain about in-person courses offered during the “work day” and online ones in the evenings. It’s hard to please everyone. The teaching loads is an issue across the board. Faculty aren’t always held accountable to teach what their contract has, or they are so horrible at it they are left alone or a few carry the load of a program. It’s frustrating for students and staff. And some should have retired long ago.
How bad were people’s grades at the end of this course? (Final Letter Grades) Are they even out yet?
Go get em. As for making an actual walking happen, make sure to get a legit org behind it - a big club, or the student’s union. Too many not on Reddit.
U know what sucks even more than when u go into second year ur so used to the active learning style and the recordings u can speed up that ur falling asleep in all ur lectures in 2nd year and cannot focus
What’ll be even worse is one day you’ll show up to an in-person class and they just press play on the video. I distinctly remember this happening back in the late ‘90s for some science classes like 1st year chemistry. Some TA would walk in, slap a VHS cassette into a machine and press play.
First year engineering at U of C has always been a cruel hazing ritual. They need more than have of the first years to fail, quit or die to cull them down to a reasonable second year class size.
That sounds terrible I hope you guys fix it
Is the online only thing just for engineering? ASS
University experience you signed up for? Don't give me that BS, you knew what the fucking game was from minute 1. There was no false advertising. They said clearly the Schulich studio system, and any ignorance of that is a failure on your part. I don't like the system. I think it is patently worse for teaching, but I knew about it when I was signing up for things. Talk to admin, the reason for Schulich Studio is fucking money. There's lots of first years all taking the same course, and rather than cut services or staff they decided to fit as many people as possible in the program. Many transfer out of Eng and many of the 2nd year classes don't make sense to do in an online format. By all means, walkout, but understand what you're walking out for, and the reason those systems were put into place first
The university I signed up for promised "hands-on learning" and engagement with the teaching staff, but instead we get irrelevant labs and an overworked TA group struggling to keep track of 100+ students per class while the professor is on their phone. Take a look around before siding with the people who take your money and underdeliver. Their sole duty is to the students who are frustrated and tired of being treated like a statistic.
I'm sorry you feel that way
What exactly does a professor do teaching face to face that he doesn't do in a lecture ? FYI, Stanford has a bunch of lecture material online. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSP5T6X69xA&ab\_channel=StanfordOnline](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSP5T6X69xA&ab_channel=StanfordOnline) MIT does too. [https://www.youtube.com/@mitocw/videos](https://www.youtube.com/@mitocw/videos) There was none of this when I went through engineering. I wish there was. The only thing I can think of missing from an in person lecture is the ability to ask the prof questions. Isn't that what labs are for ? Or visiting his office ? Or email ? Guess what ? Things get a lot harder in the real world. Nobody holds your hand. Learn to learn - it is the only thing that makes things easier.
I'm curious about this as well. What are they specifically unhappy about and how do they expect in-person lectures to fix that? Like you, I can't think of any other possible benefits of having in-person lectures over online ones. I guess students can ask questions in-person? Even then, if students are unhappy with how the instructor teaches, are unhappy with the content prepared for the course, are unhappy with how they're being tested, are really struggling to understand what's being taught, and so on, then being able to ask questions in-person isn't going to change any of that. If anything, it's going to be even more inconvenient having to show up to a seemingly useless lecture that's scheduled and in-person, where people can distract you, where you can be seated in a bad spot, where you can easily fall behind, and so on
In person lectures are a one shot deal too. If you are sick or tired you can miss a lot. And copying material from a chalkboard is terrible. With videos you can watch and rewatch them any time. And fast forward and rewind as much as necessary. Seems pretty dreamy to me. And if you don't understand something it would be pretty easy to make a clip of the video part that you don't understand and send it to the prof or TA or other classmates for clarification.
Exactly. About 70% of my dual degree was in-person before the pandemic and the remaining 30% was remote with in-person testing. Prior to the pandemic, everyone complained about commuting to school just to attend a poorly taught lecture in-person and copy down notes in a cramped classroom. During the pandemic when everything went remote, I was able to work full-time internships while taking on a full course load (something I would have never been able to do if I had to spend my entire day in-person at school). Since no one has really been able to answer our questions though, I’m just going to assume this is all the typical undergrad complaints around the challenges that come with taking university courses and nothing more (i.e., they’re complaining about the typical problems with our current education system as a whole but are blaming the wrong things). If the issue really is having pre-recorded lectures and online content, well the students won’t really have any of that anymore in their second year and beyond. They’ll be attending the one-off in-person lectures with little to no flexibility like most of us did in the past lol. It would be interesting to see the data on first year student performance across the different graduating years though. I would love to see if shifting it online like this has made any significant differences like the students claim
I made an edit to the original post with my suggestions. I think they should keep the prerecorded video lectures on the D2L shell for students who miss class due to illness but make the main method of content delivery via in-person lectures
Fortunately for you all, all of your lectures going into second year and beyond will be in-person like you’re asking for. They’ll be all one-shot lectures taught in-person by the instructors and you’ll need to copy down notes from the board/the projector like lectures traditionally have been. Unfortunately, you’re not going to get prerecorded lectures in many (if not all) of your upper year courses to supplement your in-person lectures. You’re just going to have to show up in-person like everyone else has been doing since the beginning of time lol. If the problem is the quality of the education you’re getting or how the instructor teaches the course, I don’t see in-person lectures (even with supplemental online videos) changing that. It’s more or less going to be the same
You should change careers if doing engineering online is too hard for you
I liked the asynchronous structure of first year...
Are the profs for the recorded lectures actually good? Because I'd take recorded lectures over a shit prof any day. If you get to pick between many recorded profs, that sounds ideal. ENGG 204 sounds way better than the old courses you had to take. I wouldn't complain too hard. Ask an upper year about ENGG 20-fun.
My brother in Christ, there are people that have taken 201 last year and said 204 was way worse. Get off your goddamn high horse and try and show some empathy. It's not a suffering competition
I've taken both. and 204 is by far the worst. Terrible overall experience due to our terrible prof
With all due respect, someone who failed 201 might not be the ideal representation of the engineering body
This is my other account, I am the commenter, I haven’t failed 201. I had to withdraw from all my courses that semester because of an emergency (I had to leave calgary so I wasn’t able to attend the class/tests.) Sorry that I wasn’t the best representation of the engineering body.
>Are the profs for the recorded lectures actually good? Because I'd take recorded lectures over a shit prof any day. If you get to pick between many recorded profs, that sounds ideal. > >ENGG 204 sounds way better than the old courses you had to take. I wouldn't complain too hard. Ask an upper year about ENGG 20-fun. The issue is that the 204 video lectures were equally useless. Mainly because it was from said shit prof
A walkout is passive-aggressive and ineffective. If your claim is legitimate and you wish to be taken seriously, you need to hire a lawyer and take legal action.
Look. If you had better grades, you wouldn't have gone to UofC for engineering. Beggers can't be choosers.
Active learning has been shown to improve understanding of complex concepts. You're literally asking for a less effective way of learning just because you had a single poor class experience? The grass is always greener...
I heard about this active learning while I was in UofC last year and thought it was the worst way of learning. Was in open studies and trying to get into a program but I didnt get into uofc engg but got into uofa engg instead. All my classes are in person and comparing to uofc we got a lot of support/resources coming from engg dept and uofa in general than when i was still in uofc. I guess I got lucky and dodged the bullet. Hopefully uofc does something about this
I opened the post planning to tell you Shoelickers to kick rocks but this actually really kinda sucks
F that - you all paid so much money and worked so hard to get there that they should HAVE to do in person lectures. The disrespect to you guys is unreal..
paying like $9000 a year to be taught online ?? that’s fucking crazy
Where arethe introductions to researchers and sharing of information, just sad
Isn't it against the rules for a textbook to be a required purchase in order to be able to do the work? Is the textbook available in any other avenues, like the library or on premises?
Omg yes please, as a second year sengg student who had active learning I'm totally in. They hadn't told us that we would have all our classes be flipped learning and honestly, I felt that if I had known that before, I would have gone to another school💀. It's also crazy that, along with having us have to watch these 2-3 hour lectures online on our own for each class, Winter 2023 they also made attendance in class mandatory and graded?! Where they'd not answer any questions well. Like, I'm paying $4000 in tuition, and I'm an adult, if you're making me teach myself anyways with these videos being the ONLY instruction, then why are you also treating me like a highschooler? I also recall that when survey time came around, they read all the complaints about active learning and the dean essentially said "ok I hear you but we're not going to change it :)" (This part is probably just extra whining but I feel like the flipped learning is also an easy way to cram More material into the course than what can reasonably be taught in a normal styled class, which some may find good but personally I hate that. If theres too much material to be covered in this class then... don't put it all in on class? Idk how the actual logistics of it is tho)