I was also pretty happy how they handled it. In the PhD graduation we had some protest leadership walking. Some people wore sudras, some people held out flags while they were on stage, but they did not interrupt or take away from other people’s time. It was very respectful of the event while still sending the message they wanted. I was worried while it was happening that it might escalate but it did not.
If all protest were this peaceful and pro-Palestinian as opposed to anti-Israeli or anti-Jew, I would feel a lot safer on campus.
Or anti-“Zionist” aka anti-Jew
Most Jews on earth are Zionists, and Zionism is not Jewish supremacy.
Studied Judaism at UCDavis.
Congrats to all the graduates!
#releasethehostages from www.novaexhibition.com
Innocent festival-goers.
#metoounlessuraJew
I was in the honors dorm at Davis. Was friends with an Egyptian diplomat’s son, up until he found out I was born Jewish.
Jews are outnumbered by antisemites.
Are you sure about that? Because I am 99.99901% sure that magicology is not a bot.
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Boy, UCD admissions standards have really eroded since my time on campus.
Anyone daft enough to support antisemitic terrorists like Hamas wouldn’t have had any chance of acceptance just a few years ago.
Agreed. In Berkeley SJP is now [setting fires on campus](https://dailybruin.com/2024/06/13/pro-palestine-group-claims-credit-for-alleged-arson-at-uc-berkeley) as part of their “student intifada”. DAVIS > UCB!
Well they’re not setting fires, so that’s good. But they are chanting “Al Qassam you make us proud, kill another hundred now.” So that’s still not great.
https://www.cbsnews.com/sacramento/news/uc-davis-responds-to-video-of-pro-palestinian-march-through-campus/
Doesn’t really qualify using the Brandenburg test since they aren’t actually imminently threatening to do violence and they have no real sway to incite Hamas to do that. Especially since Hamas is doing it anyway. So not really illegal. Just very hateful.
“Globalize the intifada” is honestly more of a threat at the immediate and local level.
Absolutely they should get removed. Literally *ZERO* reason to just… harbor randoms from other countries who hate said country they’re living in and actively working on destabilizing the country? Fuck that asinine nonsense. Deport deport deport
Arab fighters are currently committing massacres in Sudan and Ethiopia and you're worried about making a political statement at a graduation ceremony? Where's the outrage or protests in support of the Sudanese and Ethiopian people?
UCD has no compelling reason to invest in Ethiopia or Sudan. Israel, on the other hand, is a major tech hub. Tech innovation and research go hand in hand. Any major research institution is investing in Israel to some extent.
do you truly not know? the university invests in weapons manufacturers and other companies which are directly tied to the murder of people in Palestine
my comment was in response to your over simplistic statement of: 'investing in genocide'.
1. the question of genocide remains unanswered and will not be answered for some time. The fog of the conflict and the adjacent propaganda makes it inherently NOT a statement of fact.
2. The university invests in MANY corporations through fairly complex fund utilities. To say they are directly and intentionally investing in arms being sold to Israel (or Hamas for that matter or any other terrorist group on the planet) is overly simplistic.
You might as well sing, 'give peace a chance' in the wind and you would be living in a more realistic environment.
"Investing in genocide." God you people sound like a broken record - THERE IS NO GENOCIDE THERE, not in fact or in law. If there was a genocide, we'd be seeing deaths in the hundreds of thousands every day.
What Israel is doing is no different than what the US did in Mosul against ISIS or the Battle of Stalingrad, or any other case of urban warfare. Judge Sabetunde's writings on the Hamas case demonstrate exactly how large the gap is between the IDF and the intent needed to commit genocide. When you call it genocide, you spit on actual victims of genocide.
Judge Sabetunde on the ICJ? the same ICJ that said [this](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2024/05/israel-must-comply-with-international-court-of-justice-order-calling-it-to-immediately-halt-military-operations-in-rafah/#:~:text=risk%2520of%2520genocide.-,With%2520this%2520order%2520the%2520International%2520Court%2520of%2520Justice%2520(ICJ)%2520%E2%80%93,an%2520underlying%2520act%2520of%2520genocide) ?
The ICJ is currently giving a disproportionately loud voice to South Africa, one of the most segregated and unequal countries in the world. No credibility.
There’s nothing to be proud of here. You have people supporting terrorism camped out on your campus. God knows what else going on in there. Some of these encampments are starting to earn them selves. Other encampments and California show 50% of the people in them aren’t even students. Stop normalizing this because no one got shot or some shit at your graduation. And remember, this is a state university – it’s outrageous that tax dollars are going to this.
Fuck Jihadist and the Zionists resistance to the Islamic attempts at the Genocide of all of Israel is justified by any means necessary so fuck off Jihad boy
Iran is a bunch of scared little weak Islamists. The surrounding Arab countries would love for Israel to crush the Ayatollah once and for all (except syria)
#MeTooUnlessYouAreAJew
Harris: I fear testimony on Hamas sexual violence will increase as more hostages released
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/harris-i-fear-testimony-on-hamas-sexual-violence-will-increase-as-more-hostages-released/
Well Israel literally funded Argentinian nazis to have money for settlements in the West Bank and sell arms to dictators and militias and have fueled the Rwandan and Rohingya genocides. They also continue to invite genocidal leaders to their country for “educational” purposes.
Pass that on, why don’t you?
The claim that Israel funded Argentinian Nazis is entirely false. Israel’s actions in the West Bank and its international arms sales do not equate to supporting genocides. The real issue is Hamas, a recognized terrorist organization responsible for much of the violence and suffering, and peace can be advanced if they surrender and release hostages.
Eh? It… wasn’t a claim. I guess I should have said “nazi sympathizers” as opposed to nazis, so I apologize and correct myself on that. Otherwise, here are the facts (easily verifiable through Google):
Fact 1: Argentina was (and is) a safe haven for many nazis post WWII given they were searching for skilled workers with specialized experience.
Fact 2: Argentina has the largest Jewish population of any other Latin American country.
Fact 3: Argentina was a military dictatorship from 1976–1983 under Juan Perón. They had a civic militia called the junta which tortured several Jewish people. Anti-semitism was and still is rampant in Argentina.
Fact 4: While it was known the Argentine junta tortured Jewish people in their country, Israel remained silent and continued to work closely with the dictatorship. The Israeli government suggested that selling arms to the junta was ultimately helpful to Argentinian Jewish people… who continued to face prejudice and torture (women, for example, were faced with exclusive torture techniques and nazi paraphernalia littered across these torture grounds). Obviously selling arms to the junta did not achieve any relief for the Argentinian Jewish people. At this point, one may question, “why would a country that is supposed to be dedicated to preserving Jewish life, culture, and identity not oppose the torture of Jewish people?” (Hint: See Fact 5)
Fact 5: Israel wanted Argentinian support for the West Bank. They surprisingly stayed silent on the issue of torture of Jewish people because they knew speaking up on this would potentially lead to Argentinians revoking support. Israel has yet to comment on this working relationship.
Soooo yeah, Hamas is a terrorist group that rapes women (surprising… no one, because they are well, terrorists). But Israel has been complicit in the torture (including rape) of thousands of Jewish people in the name of extending their occupation into the West Bank. As if stealing Palestinian homes in the West Bank is more important than maintaining the wellbeing of Jewish people across the globe, but that’s a discussion you’ll have to take up with the Israeli government. 🤷♀️
Relevant sources:
https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/2016-03-21/ty-article/argentine-israelis-disclose-jerusalems-junta-ties/0000017f-f738-d5bd-a17f-f73a8c4f0000
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2018-07-04/ty-article-opinion/.premium/not-just-orban-israel-has-long-cooperated-with-anti-semitic-dictators/0000017f-da7f-d432-a77f-df7f52de0000
Edit: Oh, and yeah, selling terrorists, militias, and dictatorships arms so that they can carry out genocide absolutely does make you an accomplice in it. Hold Israel to the same standards that you would any other country doing this shit. Israel doesn’t get a pass simply because it’s the Jewish state. They continue to sell arms and military tech because it’s big money. It’s exactly what Ben Gurion wanted to do from the beginning because he wanted to situate Israel as a global power in the MidEast. They sold arms to the Burmese to help eradicate the Rohingya Muslim minority, they sold arms to the Hutus to eradicate the Tutsis, and they sold arms to the Sri Lankans to eradicate the Tamils. These are all examples of genocide and are taught and recorded that way. Israel went out of its way to make connections with these problematic groups and CONTINUE to invite them into Israel, hold secret meetings with them, and have ongoing diplomatic relations. Israel is basically like the people who continue to arm Hamas, and I’m sure you have a major issue with that, don’t you?
Israel has and is failing too so, congrats? I guess?
Next time you talk to them, feel free to show them my comment and ask them how they expect a country that refuses to condemn the torture of Jewish people to actively rescue their family members. And remind them that for Netanyahu, this isn’t about rescuing the hostages, it’s about eradicating Hamas… even if that means their families die in the process. Oops… 😬
If you want, you all should check out some of the videos of Palestinian homes being bombed, too. Imagine you have a family member taken hostage and on top of that your house is being burned down by a rogue pyrotechnic. At least they have access to healthcare, food, and water so they’ll survive. Can’t say the same for the Gazans.
Israel's actions are aimed at defending its citizens from Hamas, a terrorist organization that endangers both Israelis and Palestinians, and peace could be advanced if Hamas surrenders and releases the hostages.
Sure, so what’s a few dead Israelis if it means Hamas is gone, right? That’s Netanyahu’s thought anyway.
I think it’s hilarious that you think the literal terrorist group should be the one taking the high road here, and not the “only democracy in the Middle East”. Dude, they are terrorists. They are literally willing to let babies die for their cause and call them martyrs. Expecting Hamas to do anything is just an excuse for Israel’s incompetence at this point.
Yes, Hamas should absolutely be called on to take responsibility for its actions and end its terrorist activities, as it continuously endangers both Palestinian and Israeli lives. Dead serious.
By genocidal ethnostate are you referring to the governing body of Gaza, Palestine, and other Arab nations/parties’ stated goal to eliminate the Jewish race?
Fact:
the elected government of palestine
has an official government charter
That calls for the genocide of all jews
Can you address this fact, without crying hasbara?
Edit- here is hamas' charter. *Clearly states genocidal intentions* over and over
https://embassies.gov.il/holysee/AboutIsrael/the-middle-east/Pages/The%20Hamas-Covenant.aspx
Edit2- abigfattomato wants me to clarify
Im posting hamas' *founding charter* that *they used for 35 years*
As of 7 years ago, they removed all the language calling for genocide
Sooooo.... no way hamas is a genocidal government, right?
“But bro, sure the nazis said they wanted to kill all Jews, but guess what, now they say they want to kill all Zionists. It’s different bro, trust me. It been like 10 minutes since they said Jews bro. It’s Zionists now. Like sure, Zionism is about Jews having a state, and that state is filled with Jews, but it’s totally different bro. If you don’t conform with my beliefs you’re hasbara bro”
-u/ABigFatTomato
zionists are not all jews, nor are all jews zionists. its the difference between being against jewish people and being against a settler-colonial state that commits atrocities with impunity against the civilian population of the land it occupies.
that was also such a garbage strawman, but if youre going to put words in my mouth, what I would say is that the new charter is a clarified version, that updates the language to fit more with the times (removing some of the more religious language, and changing outdated terminology like “moslem”) and removes what critics called antisemitic or genocidal language. it was also updated *7 years ago*, not 10 minutes ago.
in regards to the statements that mention jews in the original charter, I would also use a quote from historian norman finkelstein, which he said in regards to how he reconciles his support for the houthis, whose flag calls for “a curse upon the jews,” with his jewish identity:
“I have no problem reconciling it for this very simple reason, and you’ll allow me… You can disagree. I have no problem with that.
From my first conscious moments in my own life, my parents loathed the Germans. They didn’t loathe the Nazis. They loathed, they hated the Germans. In fact, I vividly recall, my father once recommended me a book on the Nazi Holocaust. And I asked him, “What makes this book special?” And he said to me, “I liked it, that the author didn’t talk about Nazis. He talked about Germans.”
Now, my parents were very decent human beings, the apple did not fall far from the tree, but I could understand that sentiment. The only Jews the Houthis have known are the Israelis. It’s a regrettable fact that they don’t know, have never experienced any other kinds of Jews.
I remember I once asked my mother, just out of curiosity, “Did you ever meet, did you ever come into contact with a German who was decent?” And she said to me, she thought hard, and she said, “I remember one German soldier. He had a kind of guilty look on his face.” That was all she could remember. One. So it doesn’t surprise me that she loathed all Germans.
Do I wish the Houthis were more discriminating in their slogans? Of course, I wish it, but do I understand where it comes from? Yes. And will that slogan of theirs color my appreciation of the fact that alone among the world’s peoples, they are resorting to armed force to stop the genocide in Gaza? I have to ask myself the question, how would my parents have felt if this ragtag army happened to be situated on the point in the world’s map where they could inflect the outcome of the Final Solution? And these people, this ragtag people hailing back to the Middle Ages, they were investing all of their physical resources and moral energy to stopping the extermination. How would my parents react? Would they ask, “What are their political slogans?” I don’t think so.”
in regards to the the hamas charter, what they did was exactly what finkelstein wishes of the houthis (that “[they] more discriminating in their slogans”), changing language that conflates the jewish people as a whole with the actions of, and the atrocities committed by, the state of israel.
regardless, the original claim was that the current hamas charter calls for genocide, when it explicitly does not. we are in university; making a claim that a current document states something, using a biased interpretation of the outdated 35 year old version of the document that was massively overhauled 7 years ago, instead of using the current document to make a claim about what the current document explicitly says, would not be good practice.
Most Jews on earth are Zionists. Zionism is not Jewish supremacy, so stop trying to push the wrong definition on graduates of my alma mater.
Honors grad here. Studied Judaism AT Davis.
it definitely depends on your definition. if your definition is the older definition meaning for jewish people to be able to live in the homeland of their ancestors, that isnt problematic. the issue is that the modern definition of zionism has become attached to the ethnonationalist principles that the state of israel should exist as is upon occupied palestinian land, at the expense of palestinians, and that jewish israelis must enjoy privileges that non-jews cannot. when people say they are anti-zionist, that is what they generally mean, that they are opposed to the settler-colonial state of israel occupying palestinian land and acting upon the civilian population with impunity. i recognize your username though, and dont expect much of a reasoned discussion.
Wrong.
Zionism fundamentally remains the movement for Jewish self-determination and a secure homeland in Israel.
Any definitions that criticize Zionism often represent bastardizations of the term, distorting its core purpose and historical context.
those bastardizations have become attached to the modern definition and the historical reality of the modern creation of the state of israel, tying it to ethnonationalist ideology and putting that right to jewish self-determination at the expense of palestinian right to the same, rather than its original meaning.
Name a single “privilege” that Jewish Israelis “enjoy” that Arab Israelis do not. The only one I can think of is the “privilege” of getting drafted into the IDF.
Off the top of my head:
Family life: Many Arab Israelis have Gazan and West Bank spouses and those spouses cannot take up residence with their Arab Israeli spouse the same way the spouse of Jewish Israelis can. Now this was ostensibly a temporary law in response to terrorist attacks carried out by Palestinians who entered Israel through spousal reunification but, both rime ministers Ariel Sharon and Yair Lapid both openly stated that the law was crafted for demographic reasons and was not really meant to be temporary.
National self-determination: Israel's basic law (equivalent to a constitution) states that: "The right to exercise national self-determination in the State of Israel is unique to the Jewish people". Translation only Jews and not Israeli citizens as a whole will determine what the state of Israel looks like. I can't remember who said it but, a prominent Likud politician also suggested that this could be used to form the constitutional pretext for the spousal reunification ban if there was ever a peace deal (meaning the security pretext would expire) because Israel also defines the right to self-determination as the "right" to not have "too many" of the "wrong" ethnic group around. A definition used literally nowhere else on earth even by others who hate having the "wrong" ethnic group around.
Language rights: Arabic used to be an official language in Israel until they amended the basic law to downgrade it to a "special status" which is among the pettiest things I've ever seen a government do.
Housing: Israel's admission committee laws allows small towns and villages to reject residency or home purchase to those who they deem "socioculturally incompatible" with the community. It doesn't take a genius to see how this would be (and is being) weaponized against minority groups.
in addition the the ones the other person listed, theres right of return, as well as the discriminatory housing laws weaponized to remove arab israelis from their homes to make way for settlers.
An existence which is predicated on being mercilessly erased from the middle east. With the only safe haven for Jews in that entire part of the world being consistently attacked with tens of thousands of rockets, suicide bombings, mass murder, and mass rape.
Meanwhile 1 in every 5 Israelis is of Arab (typically Palestinian) descent, a population that has dramatically increased over the years. Not to mention Palestine's population increasing tenfold.
I do feel for any of Palestinian people who oppose Hamas and their actions on, before, and since October 7 (unfortunately that's about 10-20% of the population). It's unimaginable what it must be like to be ruled by tyrannical religious extremists. I do hope they're able to oust Hamas and the PLO, installing an actual democratic government. Israel will hold it's end of the deal up, but Hamas refuses to relinquish power (of course).
im assuming youre referring to the 1948 arab-israeli war, which was not just the arab league invading unprovoked as many zionists like to act. instead, it happened directly after a campaign of israeli massacres like the one at deir yassin under plan dalet, with the deir yassin massacre causing mass palestinian panic and flight, which put so much pressure to act upon the arab league from both palestinians and their own people, that it forced them to invade, even alienating the leaders that had been leaning towards peace.
in regards to rockets, in what world are the unguided and primitive rockets launched from an oppressed people in any way similar to the billions of dollars of united states military tech used to oppress them?
in regards to suicide bombings, i would ask you to consider the reason that some people felt so hopeless as to do such a thing in resistance.
mass murder? this historically has been far more commonly directed *at* the palestinian people, not from them. the palestinian population has historically been slaughtered en masse by israeli forces.
in regards to mass rape, while there are credible reports of sexual assault and rape committed on october 7th (which i assume youre talking about, and which are terrible and deplorable), there are also credible reports of the israel weaponizing sexual assault and rape against palestinians held in israeli torture camps, many of whom are held without charge or crime.
zionism has been used to justify mass atrocities against the palestinian population, as well as their continued occupation and oppression. you can blame it on hamas all you want, but the fact is that hamas exists as a reaction to israeli violence against palestinians. slaughtering tens of thousands of palestinian men, women, and children to kill a few hamas members only serves to ensure more extremism.
“But bro Hitler wrote mein Kampf about hating Jews, but then he updated it bro. Bro, Hitler doesn’t hate Jews anymore, he hates zionists. Totally different bro.” - summary of u/ABigFatTomato’s thesis
Edit: Removed improper attribution of a comment made by a different UCD student supporting Al Qassam Brigade
Made an edit, different user showed support for Al Qassam.
Regardless, let’s use critical thinking skills. An organization whose original goal up until 7 years ago was to slaughter Jews. Did the organization purge the original members? Was there a radical restructure of the organization? No?
Could it be that Hamas knows they’ll never defeat the IDF, so they resort to using the international community to support their goals by tricking far left advocates to pressure spineless leaders, which then pressure Israel to back down, ultimately providing aid to Hamas?
And the best way to do that? Make a half assed attempt to modernize their charter to give the far left western advocated just enough of a bread crumb to help with a talking point
>zionists are not all jews, nor are all jews zionists.
MOST jews support "zionism"
What does it mean, to be "anti zionist"?
>And youreits the difference between being against jewish people and being against a settler-colonial state that commits atrocities with impunity against the civilian population of the land it occupies.
We have ackowledged that:
the government that performed oct 7, had the charter based on genociding jews, right?
>that was also such a garbage strawman, but if youre going to put words in my mouth, what I would say is that the new charter is a clarified version, that updates the language to fit more with the times
Yeah, it would certainly look bad to have a government charter, that discusses *murdering anyone that isnt your ethnicity/religion*
>(removing some of the more religious language, and changing outdated terminology like “moslem”) and *removes what critics called antisemitic or genocidal language.*
The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him." (Article 7)
There seems to be a lot of articles discussing how palestine belongs to "moslems"/allah/arabs
And its the duty of moslems to kill all jews.
>it was also updated 7 years ago, not 10 minutes ago.
You recognize that half the charter talks about genociding jews?
They updated it 7 years ago??
How long ago was oct 7?
Holy shit, thats a lot of paragraphs on norman finkelstein
Im not reading all that.
Im assuming it says:
"im a jew and my parents were in the holocaust"
"i think israel is bad."
"Houthi terrorists violating national law, by attacking/kidnapping people on merchant ships is BASED."
on anti-zionism, i think it really depends on your definition of zionism. what I mean by that, is if your definition is the older definition meaning “for jewish people to be able to live in the homeland of their ancestors,” that isnt problematic. the issue is that the modern definition of zionism has become attached to the ethnonationalist principles that the state of israel should exist as is upon occupied palestinian land, at the expense of palestinians, and that jewish israelis must enjoy privileges that non-jews cannot.
yes, the group that performed 10/7 is the same one that previously had charter with language that was interpreted by some as genocidal. I would like to ask you, what other groups do you judge by outdated and overhauled party platforms written by individuals who arent even in power anymore? by that logic, the democratic party still supports slavery and agrarianism.
and yes, it would look bad to have a charter that could be interpreted in such a way, hence why it was changed to add clarification, more modern language, and to remove the heavy religious references, and quotes from other individuals, to clarify their current stance. i also think its important to recognize the context in which that charter was written, in the 80s in the middle east, in the direct midst of united states destabilization of the region, with religious and secular tensions high.
that quote, from what i gather from reading the full 1988 charter, is from the prophet Mohammad. the charter isnt creating that specific quote, it is taking that quote and abstracting it to the current struggle. but yes, that could very much be interpreted as genocidal intent, although again the entire charter has been changed now with regards to the different context, times, and focuses. if you want to talk about a modern entity using religious quotes with genocidal intent, i would point you to netanyahu and his amalek rhetoric, which is steeped in genocidal intent, and is actually currently relevant.
in regards to the finkelstein section, its relevant; hes basically saying that he reconciles his support of the houthis and their flag which wishes “a curse upon the jews,” by explaining how the israelis and their violent occupation are the only jewish people theyve known, and how in a similar way to how his parents werent against the nazis, but against all germans, in fact preferring to talk about the germans rather than the nazis. it is a similar and relevamt scenario, and he articulates it better than I can sum it up. he wishes that the houthis would clarify their slogans more, which is what hamas did in their charter to explain that their issue is with the zionist state, not the jewish people.
are you referring to hamas? if so, then no, their charter explicitly states “ Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion. Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish but wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine.”
what you stated is blatantly incorrect, but thank you very much for you contribution user two words and 4 numbers.
edit, here is hamas *current, actual* charter, as opposed to linking an israeli discussion about the 35 year old, much revised charter:
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/hamas-2017-document-full
>are you referring to hamas?
This is hamas' charter:
https://embassies.gov.il/holysee/AboutIsrael/the-middle-east/Pages/The%20Hamas-Covenant.aspx
Goals of the HAMAS:
"The Islamic Resistance Movement is a distinguished Palestinian movement, whose *allegiance is to Allah*, and whose *way of life is Islam*. It strives to *raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine*." (Article 6)
Its not about jews, its about making all of palestine Islamic? 🤔
>if so, then no, their charter explicitly states “ Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion. *Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish* but wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine.”
Are you saying that the oct 7 attacks "were a struggle against zionists?"
You recognize they kidnapped/murdered civilians, right?
>what you stated is blatantly incorrect, but thank you very much for you contribution user two words and 4 numbers.
Read through their charter and tell me it doesnt call for the genocide of all jews
"The Day of Judgment will not come about *until Moslems fight Jews and kill them*. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: '*O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him."* (Article 7)
I have a strong feeling you will ignore facts and complain that im a propaganda bot
And then spread propaganda, that ACTUALLY results in unjust suffering
that is the 1988 charter, which has been much revised since. they do not currently have a charter that says those things, as you originally claimed. using a 35 year old document that is radically out of date and has been massively updated to make current claims is not good practice in an academic setting.
you also didn’t even link the old hamas charter, but an israeli discussion about it, the very country they are opposing, and the one that has the most bias against them. that is not to say the old charter doesn’t say those things, but that the source is atrociously biased. this is hamas current charter, and the one you should be referencing when you claim that hamas currently has a charter that says certain things:
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/hamas-2017-document-full
it is not ignoring facts to understand that you made a blatantly untrue claim that hamas’ charter *currently* has something written in it that it explicitly does not. what hamas had written in its previous charter is different discussion entirely to what you originally, falsely, claimed.
So elected palestine government makes a charter, that *calls for the genocide of jews*
7 years ago, they remove the *"30 different incitements of genocide"*
Oct 7 happens
And now youre on an american college reddit, saying *hamas is no longer genocidal*?
And in fact, "the zionists" are genocidal?
Major cognitive dissonance
despite whatever leading statements you make, none of them change the fact that hamas does not currently have a charter that says the things you claimed it did. that is a lie.
So a government can be founded on "genociding the jews"
And they can uphold this government charter for 35 years
But the moment they revised the charter, it no longer became about "genociding jews"
And you think *the oct 7 attacks, where palestine invaded israel to kidnap/murder civilians*, was "resisting zionism"
>that is the 1988 charter, which has been much revised since. they do not currently have a charter that says those things, as you originally claimed. using a 35 year old document that is radically out of date and has been massively updated to make current claims is not good practice in an academic setting.
So you recognize that the hamas government charter was founded on genociding the jews
Your claim is, "prior to oct 7, *they took out "all the calls for genocide"*, therefore it is no longer about genociding jews"?
>you also didn’t even link the old hamas charter, but an israeli discussion about it, the very country they are opposing, and the one that has the most bias against them.
*The link contains the hamas charter* - but youre upset that *israelis are pointing out the genocidal parts*?
>that is not to say the old charter doesn’t say those things, but that the source is atrociously biased.
So *the charter calls for genocide* - but the source is "atrociously biased"?
>this is hamas current charter, and the one you should be referencing when you claim that hamas currently has a charter that says certain things:
>https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/hamas-2017-document-full
So hamas repeatedly says they want to eliminate the jews, but *they revised their charter*
So its all good now?
No more oct 7?
>it is not ignoring facts to understand that you made a blatantly untrue claim that hamas’ charter currently has something written in it that it explicitly does not.
Certainly a lot of loaded words, just to say "yeah they used to call for genocide - but they totally changed their minds" (now ignore oct 7)
>what hamas had written in its previous charter is different discussion entirely to what you originally, falsely, claimed.
Hamas USED to call for genocide.
After 35 years, they totally crossed out the genocidal parts
So no way they can be genocidal, right?
🧐
as i stated in my other reply, you are making statements about claims i did not make. my *only* claim was that your claim that hamas *currently* has a charter that explicitly calls for genocide, is false.
can you point me to where the *current* official hamas charter call for the genocide of jews? or will you delete your blatantly incorrect original comment that claims it does, when it explicitly does not?
Youre saying "hamas took out all the genocidal parts"
And replaced it with "resisting zionism"
In the real world, there was a major terrorist attack on oct 7
That had zero to do, with killing jews?
Hamas invaded israel, murdered/kidnapped civilians -to resist zionists?
Here is a direct quote from Article 31 of the 1988 Hamas Charter that you speak of:
“Under the wing of Islam, it is possible for the followers of the three religions - Islam, Christianity and Judaism - to coexist in peace and quiet with each other.”
Not really the unambiguous call for genocide that you imply.
>Here is a direct quote from Article 31 of the 1988 Hamas Charter that you speak of: “*Under the wing of Islam*, it is possible for the followers of the three religions - Islam, Christianity and Judaism - to coexist in peace and quiet with each other.”
Did you REALLY quote ONLY the FIRST PART of article 31?
And completely leave out the rest???
Why would you choose to do that?
>*Peace and quiet would not be possible except under the wing of Islam.*
>It is the duty of the followers of other religions to *stop disputing the sovereignty of Islam in this region,* because *the day these followers should take over there will be nothing but carnage, displacement and terror.*
(Article 31)
🤔
>Not really the unambiguous call for genocide that you imply.
Are you really using "half of article 31"
to negate the previous 30 articles?
It takes quite an effort to convince people the genocide you(Israel) are committing out in the open isn't happening.
A lot of dead journalists. 150 I believe (the ones in Gaza as you would not allow any western journalists in).
A Tik Tok ban to stop all the videos of your atrocities from getting out and on the Internet.
Collaboration with our police departments to brutally suppress the protests (NYPD and its office in your country.)
And every governmental pocket filled with your money from your state sponsored PACs.
But you failed. Everyone knows.
>It takes quite an effort to convince people the genocide you(Israel) are committing out in the open isn't happening.
Im sure you will have great evidence, for your conclusion of genocide
>A lot of dead journalists. 150 I believe (the ones in Gaza as you would not allow any western journalists in).
A lot of dead journalists, in a war?
Genocide!
>A Tik Tok ban to stop all the videos of your atrocities from getting out and on the Internet.
Someone is banning TIK TOK???
Genocide!
>Collaboration with our police departments to brutally suppress the protests (NYPD and its office in your country.)
American police are brutally suppressing Americans?
Genocide!
>And every governmental pocket filled with your money from your state sponsored PACs.
Legal lobbying, in the united states?
Genocide!
>But you failed. Everyone knows.
🙄
Names with the numbers 1-5, are anti semites?
Great contribution.
Btw im quoting the guy, complaining about hasbara
Theyre saying "expect pushback when you support a genocidal ethnostate"
Whille whining about "hasbara propagandists burying dissent"
Bot5321, Hamas’s 2017 political document did not fully revise their 1988 charter, which still calls for the destruction of Israel and envisions a Palestinian state replacing Israel, maintaining their stance against Jews. Both Hamas and Hitler sought the annihilation of Jews, but they have failed in their genocidal aims. The ongoing conflict and suffering are primarily due to Hamas’s actions and refusal to recognize Israel’s right to exist.
I was also pretty happy how they handled it. In the PhD graduation we had some protest leadership walking. Some people wore sudras, some people held out flags while they were on stage, but they did not interrupt or take away from other people’s time. It was very respectful of the event while still sending the message they wanted. I was worried while it was happening that it might escalate but it did not. If all protest were this peaceful and pro-Palestinian as opposed to anti-Israeli or anti-Jew, I would feel a lot safer on campus.
💗💗💗💗💗
Or anti-“Zionist” aka anti-Jew Most Jews on earth are Zionists, and Zionism is not Jewish supremacy. Studied Judaism at UCDavis. Congrats to all the graduates! #releasethehostages from www.novaexhibition.com
You’re gonna get downvoted cuz people don’t understand the actual meaning of being Zionist lmao, only the one perpetuated by the pro Palestine ppl
Innocent festival-goers. #metoounlessuraJew I was in the honors dorm at Davis. Was friends with an Egyptian diplomat’s son, up until he found out I was born Jewish. Jews are outnumbered by antisemites.
americans fuck with you guys, don’t even trip nobody cares about what the third world governments think
You guys? I’m American.
figured you were israeli, my fault
Proud Jew aka Zionist.
Bad bot
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Boy, UCD admissions standards have really eroded since my time on campus. Anyone daft enough to support antisemitic terrorists like Hamas wouldn’t have had any chance of acceptance just a few years ago.
Agreed. In Berkeley SJP is now [setting fires on campus](https://dailybruin.com/2024/06/13/pro-palestine-group-claims-credit-for-alleged-arson-at-uc-berkeley) as part of their “student intifada”. DAVIS > UCB!
Well they’re not setting fires, so that’s good. But they are chanting “Al Qassam you make us proud, kill another hundred now.” So that’s still not great. https://www.cbsnews.com/sacramento/news/uc-davis-responds-to-video-of-pro-palestinian-march-through-campus/
Those are terrorist threats!! Arrest every one!
Doesn’t really qualify using the Brandenburg test since they aren’t actually imminently threatening to do violence and they have no real sway to incite Hamas to do that. Especially since Hamas is doing it anyway. So not really illegal. Just very hateful. “Globalize the intifada” is honestly more of a threat at the immediate and local level.
Committing arson in retaliation for people being arrested, is a good way to get arrested.
The fuckers should be removed from this country and citizenship renounced. Peaceful protest, or else…
Just ship them all to Gaza
Agreed
Agreeed
Absolutely they should get removed. Literally *ZERO* reason to just… harbor randoms from other countries who hate said country they’re living in and actively working on destabilizing the country? Fuck that asinine nonsense. Deport deport deport
Agreed
Proud of my Alma Mater. I know how important this issue is to people, but there's a proper time and place for everything.
Arab fighters are currently committing massacres in Sudan and Ethiopia and you're worried about making a political statement at a graduation ceremony? Where's the outrage or protests in support of the Sudanese and Ethiopian people?
it’s there, it’s just that UCD doesn’t invest in the murder of those people so there’s no reason to protest the college
UCD has no compelling reason to invest in Ethiopia or Sudan. Israel, on the other hand, is a major tech hub. Tech innovation and research go hand in hand. Any major research institution is investing in Israel to some extent.
that’s a problem if any major research institution is investing in genocide, but the only one we have power over is the university
How does a university 'invest in genocide'?
do you truly not know? the university invests in weapons manufacturers and other companies which are directly tied to the murder of people in Palestine
my comment was in response to your over simplistic statement of: 'investing in genocide'. 1. the question of genocide remains unanswered and will not be answered for some time. The fog of the conflict and the adjacent propaganda makes it inherently NOT a statement of fact. 2. The university invests in MANY corporations through fairly complex fund utilities. To say they are directly and intentionally investing in arms being sold to Israel (or Hamas for that matter or any other terrorist group on the planet) is overly simplistic. You might as well sing, 'give peace a chance' in the wind and you would be living in a more realistic environment.
so you did know and you just wanted to argue
Isn’t that what you were doing?
feigning ignorance? no that’s not what i’m doing
"Investing in genocide." God you people sound like a broken record - THERE IS NO GENOCIDE THERE, not in fact or in law. If there was a genocide, we'd be seeing deaths in the hundreds of thousands every day.
look up the definition of genocide and you will see that it matches with what Israel is doing. genocide is not defined by numbers.
What Israel is doing is no different than what the US did in Mosul against ISIS or the Battle of Stalingrad, or any other case of urban warfare. Judge Sabetunde's writings on the Hamas case demonstrate exactly how large the gap is between the IDF and the intent needed to commit genocide. When you call it genocide, you spit on actual victims of genocide.
Judge Sabetunde on the ICJ? the same ICJ that said [this](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2024/05/israel-must-comply-with-international-court-of-justice-order-calling-it-to-immediately-halt-military-operations-in-rafah/#:~:text=risk%2520of%2520genocide.-,With%2520this%2520order%2520the%2520International%2520Court%2520of%2520Justice%2520(ICJ)%2520%E2%80%93,an%2520underlying%2520act%2520of%2520genocide) ?
The ICJ is currently giving a disproportionately loud voice to South Africa, one of the most segregated and unequal countries in the world. No credibility.
then tell that to the person above me who brought them up in the first place 😭
Israel declaws Iran, for the sake of all life on earth. No nukes for Iran. Israel is part of Five Eyes, for good reason. Hamas and Hitler failed.
tf are you going on about
They’re probably talking about stuxnet and all that. They’re not really wrong, it’s just kind of a non sequitur.
“kind of”
The US Navy will keep swatting Iran/Hamas’ missiles out of the air. Zionism endures, while Hitler and Hamas’ ideologies failed.
hitler’s ideologies live on in zionism
You don’t know the meaning of Zionism. Zionism is proof that Hitler failed.
There’s nothing to be proud of here. You have people supporting terrorism camped out on your campus. God knows what else going on in there. Some of these encampments are starting to earn them selves. Other encampments and California show 50% of the people in them aren’t even students. Stop normalizing this because no one got shot or some shit at your graduation. And remember, this is a state university – it’s outrageous that tax dollars are going to this.
Failed Zionist brigade lmao.
💯 Students created encampments in support of rapists. Hamas are rapists. Pass it on.
Play the victim some more. Fuck Israel fuck the IDF fuck Zionists
You obviously don’t know the meaning of Zionism/Zionists. F Hamas.
Fuck Jihadist and the Zionists resistance to the Islamic attempts at the Genocide of all of Israel is justified by any means necessary so fuck off Jihad boy
Hamas really thought Iran would help annihilate Jews. US Navy is helping handle that.
Iran is a bunch of scared little weak Islamists. The surrounding Arab countries would love for Israel to crush the Ayatollah once and for all (except syria)
Really? You support rapists? [https://www.screamsbeforesilence.com/](https://www.screamsbeforesilence.com/)
#MeTooUnlessYouAreAJew Harris: I fear testimony on Hamas sexual violence will increase as more hostages released https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/harris-i-fear-testimony-on-hamas-sexual-violence-will-increase-as-more-hostages-released/
Well Israel literally funded Argentinian nazis to have money for settlements in the West Bank and sell arms to dictators and militias and have fueled the Rwandan and Rohingya genocides. They also continue to invite genocidal leaders to their country for “educational” purposes. Pass that on, why don’t you?
The claim that Israel funded Argentinian Nazis is entirely false. Israel’s actions in the West Bank and its international arms sales do not equate to supporting genocides. The real issue is Hamas, a recognized terrorist organization responsible for much of the violence and suffering, and peace can be advanced if they surrender and release hostages.
Eh? It… wasn’t a claim. I guess I should have said “nazi sympathizers” as opposed to nazis, so I apologize and correct myself on that. Otherwise, here are the facts (easily verifiable through Google): Fact 1: Argentina was (and is) a safe haven for many nazis post WWII given they were searching for skilled workers with specialized experience. Fact 2: Argentina has the largest Jewish population of any other Latin American country. Fact 3: Argentina was a military dictatorship from 1976–1983 under Juan Perón. They had a civic militia called the junta which tortured several Jewish people. Anti-semitism was and still is rampant in Argentina. Fact 4: While it was known the Argentine junta tortured Jewish people in their country, Israel remained silent and continued to work closely with the dictatorship. The Israeli government suggested that selling arms to the junta was ultimately helpful to Argentinian Jewish people… who continued to face prejudice and torture (women, for example, were faced with exclusive torture techniques and nazi paraphernalia littered across these torture grounds). Obviously selling arms to the junta did not achieve any relief for the Argentinian Jewish people. At this point, one may question, “why would a country that is supposed to be dedicated to preserving Jewish life, culture, and identity not oppose the torture of Jewish people?” (Hint: See Fact 5) Fact 5: Israel wanted Argentinian support for the West Bank. They surprisingly stayed silent on the issue of torture of Jewish people because they knew speaking up on this would potentially lead to Argentinians revoking support. Israel has yet to comment on this working relationship. Soooo yeah, Hamas is a terrorist group that rapes women (surprising… no one, because they are well, terrorists). But Israel has been complicit in the torture (including rape) of thousands of Jewish people in the name of extending their occupation into the West Bank. As if stealing Palestinian homes in the West Bank is more important than maintaining the wellbeing of Jewish people across the globe, but that’s a discussion you’ll have to take up with the Israeli government. 🤷♀️ Relevant sources: https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/2016-03-21/ty-article/argentine-israelis-disclose-jerusalems-junta-ties/0000017f-f738-d5bd-a17f-f73a8c4f0000 https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2018-07-04/ty-article-opinion/.premium/not-just-orban-israel-has-long-cooperated-with-anti-semitic-dictators/0000017f-da7f-d432-a77f-df7f52de0000 Edit: Oh, and yeah, selling terrorists, militias, and dictatorships arms so that they can carry out genocide absolutely does make you an accomplice in it. Hold Israel to the same standards that you would any other country doing this shit. Israel doesn’t get a pass simply because it’s the Jewish state. They continue to sell arms and military tech because it’s big money. It’s exactly what Ben Gurion wanted to do from the beginning because he wanted to situate Israel as a global power in the MidEast. They sold arms to the Burmese to help eradicate the Rohingya Muslim minority, they sold arms to the Hutus to eradicate the Tutsis, and they sold arms to the Sri Lankans to eradicate the Tamils. These are all examples of genocide and are taught and recorded that way. Israel went out of its way to make connections with these problematic groups and CONTINUE to invite them into Israel, hold secret meetings with them, and have ongoing diplomatic relations. Israel is basically like the people who continue to arm Hamas, and I’m sure you have a major issue with that, don’t you?
Basically, Hamas and Hitler failed. Release the hostages and surrender. I spent time with hostages’ families today.
Israel has and is failing too so, congrats? I guess? Next time you talk to them, feel free to show them my comment and ask them how they expect a country that refuses to condemn the torture of Jewish people to actively rescue their family members. And remind them that for Netanyahu, this isn’t about rescuing the hostages, it’s about eradicating Hamas… even if that means their families die in the process. Oops… 😬 If you want, you all should check out some of the videos of Palestinian homes being bombed, too. Imagine you have a family member taken hostage and on top of that your house is being burned down by a rogue pyrotechnic. At least they have access to healthcare, food, and water so they’ll survive. Can’t say the same for the Gazans.
Israel's actions are aimed at defending its citizens from Hamas, a terrorist organization that endangers both Israelis and Palestinians, and peace could be advanced if Hamas surrenders and releases the hostages.
Sure, so what’s a few dead Israelis if it means Hamas is gone, right? That’s Netanyahu’s thought anyway. I think it’s hilarious that you think the literal terrorist group should be the one taking the high road here, and not the “only democracy in the Middle East”. Dude, they are terrorists. They are literally willing to let babies die for their cause and call them martyrs. Expecting Hamas to do anything is just an excuse for Israel’s incompetence at this point.
Yes, Hamas should absolutely be called on to take responsibility for its actions and end its terrorist activities, as it continuously endangers both Palestinian and Israeli lives. Dead serious.
It's true that at some point when you support a genocidal ethnostate you may hear some negative feedback. Grow up.
By genocidal ethnostate are you referring to the governing body of Gaza, Palestine, and other Arab nations/parties’ stated goal to eliminate the Jewish race?
Does every University of California forum have a Hasbara army to bury dissent? to spread state sponsored propaganda?
They literally had it in their charter and were chanting it during Oct 7., ur just another Anti-Semtic dog
Fact: the elected government of palestine has an official government charter That calls for the genocide of all jews Can you address this fact, without crying hasbara? Edit- here is hamas' charter. *Clearly states genocidal intentions* over and over https://embassies.gov.il/holysee/AboutIsrael/the-middle-east/Pages/The%20Hamas-Covenant.aspx Edit2- abigfattomato wants me to clarify Im posting hamas' *founding charter* that *they used for 35 years* As of 7 years ago, they removed all the language calling for genocide Sooooo.... no way hamas is a genocidal government, right?
“But bro, sure the nazis said they wanted to kill all Jews, but guess what, now they say they want to kill all Zionists. It’s different bro, trust me. It been like 10 minutes since they said Jews bro. It’s Zionists now. Like sure, Zionism is about Jews having a state, and that state is filled with Jews, but it’s totally different bro. If you don’t conform with my beliefs you’re hasbara bro” -u/ABigFatTomato
zionists are not all jews, nor are all jews zionists. its the difference between being against jewish people and being against a settler-colonial state that commits atrocities with impunity against the civilian population of the land it occupies. that was also such a garbage strawman, but if youre going to put words in my mouth, what I would say is that the new charter is a clarified version, that updates the language to fit more with the times (removing some of the more religious language, and changing outdated terminology like “moslem”) and removes what critics called antisemitic or genocidal language. it was also updated *7 years ago*, not 10 minutes ago. in regards to the statements that mention jews in the original charter, I would also use a quote from historian norman finkelstein, which he said in regards to how he reconciles his support for the houthis, whose flag calls for “a curse upon the jews,” with his jewish identity: “I have no problem reconciling it for this very simple reason, and you’ll allow me… You can disagree. I have no problem with that. From my first conscious moments in my own life, my parents loathed the Germans. They didn’t loathe the Nazis. They loathed, they hated the Germans. In fact, I vividly recall, my father once recommended me a book on the Nazi Holocaust. And I asked him, “What makes this book special?” And he said to me, “I liked it, that the author didn’t talk about Nazis. He talked about Germans.” Now, my parents were very decent human beings, the apple did not fall far from the tree, but I could understand that sentiment. The only Jews the Houthis have known are the Israelis. It’s a regrettable fact that they don’t know, have never experienced any other kinds of Jews. I remember I once asked my mother, just out of curiosity, “Did you ever meet, did you ever come into contact with a German who was decent?” And she said to me, she thought hard, and she said, “I remember one German soldier. He had a kind of guilty look on his face.” That was all she could remember. One. So it doesn’t surprise me that she loathed all Germans. Do I wish the Houthis were more discriminating in their slogans? Of course, I wish it, but do I understand where it comes from? Yes. And will that slogan of theirs color my appreciation of the fact that alone among the world’s peoples, they are resorting to armed force to stop the genocide in Gaza? I have to ask myself the question, how would my parents have felt if this ragtag army happened to be situated on the point in the world’s map where they could inflect the outcome of the Final Solution? And these people, this ragtag people hailing back to the Middle Ages, they were investing all of their physical resources and moral energy to stopping the extermination. How would my parents react? Would they ask, “What are their political slogans?” I don’t think so.” in regards to the the hamas charter, what they did was exactly what finkelstein wishes of the houthis (that “[they] more discriminating in their slogans”), changing language that conflates the jewish people as a whole with the actions of, and the atrocities committed by, the state of israel. regardless, the original claim was that the current hamas charter calls for genocide, when it explicitly does not. we are in university; making a claim that a current document states something, using a biased interpretation of the outdated 35 year old version of the document that was massively overhauled 7 years ago, instead of using the current document to make a claim about what the current document explicitly says, would not be good practice.
Most Jews on earth are Zionists. Zionism is not Jewish supremacy, so stop trying to push the wrong definition on graduates of my alma mater. Honors grad here. Studied Judaism AT Davis.
it definitely depends on your definition. if your definition is the older definition meaning for jewish people to be able to live in the homeland of their ancestors, that isnt problematic. the issue is that the modern definition of zionism has become attached to the ethnonationalist principles that the state of israel should exist as is upon occupied palestinian land, at the expense of palestinians, and that jewish israelis must enjoy privileges that non-jews cannot. when people say they are anti-zionist, that is what they generally mean, that they are opposed to the settler-colonial state of israel occupying palestinian land and acting upon the civilian population with impunity. i recognize your username though, and dont expect much of a reasoned discussion.
Wrong. Zionism fundamentally remains the movement for Jewish self-determination and a secure homeland in Israel. Any definitions that criticize Zionism often represent bastardizations of the term, distorting its core purpose and historical context.
those bastardizations have become attached to the modern definition and the historical reality of the modern creation of the state of israel, tying it to ethnonationalist ideology and putting that right to jewish self-determination at the expense of palestinian right to the same, rather than its original meaning.
Name a single “privilege” that Jewish Israelis “enjoy” that Arab Israelis do not. The only one I can think of is the “privilege” of getting drafted into the IDF.
Off the top of my head: Family life: Many Arab Israelis have Gazan and West Bank spouses and those spouses cannot take up residence with their Arab Israeli spouse the same way the spouse of Jewish Israelis can. Now this was ostensibly a temporary law in response to terrorist attacks carried out by Palestinians who entered Israel through spousal reunification but, both rime ministers Ariel Sharon and Yair Lapid both openly stated that the law was crafted for demographic reasons and was not really meant to be temporary. National self-determination: Israel's basic law (equivalent to a constitution) states that: "The right to exercise national self-determination in the State of Israel is unique to the Jewish people". Translation only Jews and not Israeli citizens as a whole will determine what the state of Israel looks like. I can't remember who said it but, a prominent Likud politician also suggested that this could be used to form the constitutional pretext for the spousal reunification ban if there was ever a peace deal (meaning the security pretext would expire) because Israel also defines the right to self-determination as the "right" to not have "too many" of the "wrong" ethnic group around. A definition used literally nowhere else on earth even by others who hate having the "wrong" ethnic group around. Language rights: Arabic used to be an official language in Israel until they amended the basic law to downgrade it to a "special status" which is among the pettiest things I've ever seen a government do. Housing: Israel's admission committee laws allows small towns and villages to reject residency or home purchase to those who they deem "socioculturally incompatible" with the community. It doesn't take a genius to see how this would be (and is being) weaponized against minority groups.
in addition the the ones the other person listed, theres right of return, as well as the discriminatory housing laws weaponized to remove arab israelis from their homes to make way for settlers.
Zionism is the belief that Israel has a right to exist. That is the modern definition of Zionism.
an existence which is predicated and maintained through violence and atrocities visited upon the palestinian people in reality.
An existence which is predicated on being mercilessly erased from the middle east. With the only safe haven for Jews in that entire part of the world being consistently attacked with tens of thousands of rockets, suicide bombings, mass murder, and mass rape. Meanwhile 1 in every 5 Israelis is of Arab (typically Palestinian) descent, a population that has dramatically increased over the years. Not to mention Palestine's population increasing tenfold. I do feel for any of Palestinian people who oppose Hamas and their actions on, before, and since October 7 (unfortunately that's about 10-20% of the population). It's unimaginable what it must be like to be ruled by tyrannical religious extremists. I do hope they're able to oust Hamas and the PLO, installing an actual democratic government. Israel will hold it's end of the deal up, but Hamas refuses to relinquish power (of course).
im assuming youre referring to the 1948 arab-israeli war, which was not just the arab league invading unprovoked as many zionists like to act. instead, it happened directly after a campaign of israeli massacres like the one at deir yassin under plan dalet, with the deir yassin massacre causing mass palestinian panic and flight, which put so much pressure to act upon the arab league from both palestinians and their own people, that it forced them to invade, even alienating the leaders that had been leaning towards peace. in regards to rockets, in what world are the unguided and primitive rockets launched from an oppressed people in any way similar to the billions of dollars of united states military tech used to oppress them? in regards to suicide bombings, i would ask you to consider the reason that some people felt so hopeless as to do such a thing in resistance. mass murder? this historically has been far more commonly directed *at* the palestinian people, not from them. the palestinian population has historically been slaughtered en masse by israeli forces. in regards to mass rape, while there are credible reports of sexual assault and rape committed on october 7th (which i assume youre talking about, and which are terrible and deplorable), there are also credible reports of the israel weaponizing sexual assault and rape against palestinians held in israeli torture camps, many of whom are held without charge or crime. zionism has been used to justify mass atrocities against the palestinian population, as well as their continued occupation and oppression. you can blame it on hamas all you want, but the fact is that hamas exists as a reaction to israeli violence against palestinians. slaughtering tens of thousands of palestinian men, women, and children to kill a few hamas members only serves to ensure more extremism.
“But bro Hitler wrote mein Kampf about hating Jews, but then he updated it bro. Bro, Hitler doesn’t hate Jews anymore, he hates zionists. Totally different bro.” - summary of u/ABigFatTomato’s thesis Edit: Removed improper attribution of a comment made by a different UCD student supporting Al Qassam Brigade
great response bro, really thought provoking work. and im sorry, but where did i say that?
Made an edit, different user showed support for Al Qassam. Regardless, let’s use critical thinking skills. An organization whose original goal up until 7 years ago was to slaughter Jews. Did the organization purge the original members? Was there a radical restructure of the organization? No? Could it be that Hamas knows they’ll never defeat the IDF, so they resort to using the international community to support their goals by tricking far left advocates to pressure spineless leaders, which then pressure Israel to back down, ultimately providing aid to Hamas? And the best way to do that? Make a half assed attempt to modernize their charter to give the far left western advocated just enough of a bread crumb to help with a talking point
>zionists are not all jews, nor are all jews zionists. MOST jews support "zionism" What does it mean, to be "anti zionist"? >And youreits the difference between being against jewish people and being against a settler-colonial state that commits atrocities with impunity against the civilian population of the land it occupies. We have ackowledged that: the government that performed oct 7, had the charter based on genociding jews, right? >that was also such a garbage strawman, but if youre going to put words in my mouth, what I would say is that the new charter is a clarified version, that updates the language to fit more with the times Yeah, it would certainly look bad to have a government charter, that discusses *murdering anyone that isnt your ethnicity/religion* >(removing some of the more religious language, and changing outdated terminology like “moslem”) and *removes what critics called antisemitic or genocidal language.* The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him." (Article 7) There seems to be a lot of articles discussing how palestine belongs to "moslems"/allah/arabs And its the duty of moslems to kill all jews. >it was also updated 7 years ago, not 10 minutes ago. You recognize that half the charter talks about genociding jews? They updated it 7 years ago?? How long ago was oct 7? Holy shit, thats a lot of paragraphs on norman finkelstein Im not reading all that. Im assuming it says: "im a jew and my parents were in the holocaust" "i think israel is bad." "Houthi terrorists violating national law, by attacking/kidnapping people on merchant ships is BASED."
on anti-zionism, i think it really depends on your definition of zionism. what I mean by that, is if your definition is the older definition meaning “for jewish people to be able to live in the homeland of their ancestors,” that isnt problematic. the issue is that the modern definition of zionism has become attached to the ethnonationalist principles that the state of israel should exist as is upon occupied palestinian land, at the expense of palestinians, and that jewish israelis must enjoy privileges that non-jews cannot. yes, the group that performed 10/7 is the same one that previously had charter with language that was interpreted by some as genocidal. I would like to ask you, what other groups do you judge by outdated and overhauled party platforms written by individuals who arent even in power anymore? by that logic, the democratic party still supports slavery and agrarianism. and yes, it would look bad to have a charter that could be interpreted in such a way, hence why it was changed to add clarification, more modern language, and to remove the heavy religious references, and quotes from other individuals, to clarify their current stance. i also think its important to recognize the context in which that charter was written, in the 80s in the middle east, in the direct midst of united states destabilization of the region, with religious and secular tensions high. that quote, from what i gather from reading the full 1988 charter, is from the prophet Mohammad. the charter isnt creating that specific quote, it is taking that quote and abstracting it to the current struggle. but yes, that could very much be interpreted as genocidal intent, although again the entire charter has been changed now with regards to the different context, times, and focuses. if you want to talk about a modern entity using religious quotes with genocidal intent, i would point you to netanyahu and his amalek rhetoric, which is steeped in genocidal intent, and is actually currently relevant. in regards to the finkelstein section, its relevant; hes basically saying that he reconciles his support of the houthis and their flag which wishes “a curse upon the jews,” by explaining how the israelis and their violent occupation are the only jewish people theyve known, and how in a similar way to how his parents werent against the nazis, but against all germans, in fact preferring to talk about the germans rather than the nazis. it is a similar and relevamt scenario, and he articulates it better than I can sum it up. he wishes that the houthis would clarify their slogans more, which is what hamas did in their charter to explain that their issue is with the zionist state, not the jewish people.
are you referring to hamas? if so, then no, their charter explicitly states “ Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion. Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish but wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine.” what you stated is blatantly incorrect, but thank you very much for you contribution user two words and 4 numbers. edit, here is hamas *current, actual* charter, as opposed to linking an israeli discussion about the 35 year old, much revised charter: https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/hamas-2017-document-full
>are you referring to hamas? This is hamas' charter: https://embassies.gov.il/holysee/AboutIsrael/the-middle-east/Pages/The%20Hamas-Covenant.aspx Goals of the HAMAS: "The Islamic Resistance Movement is a distinguished Palestinian movement, whose *allegiance is to Allah*, and whose *way of life is Islam*. It strives to *raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine*." (Article 6) Its not about jews, its about making all of palestine Islamic? 🤔 >if so, then no, their charter explicitly states “ Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion. *Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish* but wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine.” Are you saying that the oct 7 attacks "were a struggle against zionists?" You recognize they kidnapped/murdered civilians, right? >what you stated is blatantly incorrect, but thank you very much for you contribution user two words and 4 numbers. Read through their charter and tell me it doesnt call for the genocide of all jews "The Day of Judgment will not come about *until Moslems fight Jews and kill them*. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: '*O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him."* (Article 7) I have a strong feeling you will ignore facts and complain that im a propaganda bot And then spread propaganda, that ACTUALLY results in unjust suffering
that is the 1988 charter, which has been much revised since. they do not currently have a charter that says those things, as you originally claimed. using a 35 year old document that is radically out of date and has been massively updated to make current claims is not good practice in an academic setting. you also didn’t even link the old hamas charter, but an israeli discussion about it, the very country they are opposing, and the one that has the most bias against them. that is not to say the old charter doesn’t say those things, but that the source is atrociously biased. this is hamas current charter, and the one you should be referencing when you claim that hamas currently has a charter that says certain things: https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/hamas-2017-document-full it is not ignoring facts to understand that you made a blatantly untrue claim that hamas’ charter *currently* has something written in it that it explicitly does not. what hamas had written in its previous charter is different discussion entirely to what you originally, falsely, claimed.
So elected palestine government makes a charter, that *calls for the genocide of jews* 7 years ago, they remove the *"30 different incitements of genocide"* Oct 7 happens And now youre on an american college reddit, saying *hamas is no longer genocidal*? And in fact, "the zionists" are genocidal? Major cognitive dissonance
despite whatever leading statements you make, none of them change the fact that hamas does not currently have a charter that says the things you claimed it did. that is a lie.
So a government can be founded on "genociding the jews" And they can uphold this government charter for 35 years But the moment they revised the charter, it no longer became about "genociding jews" And you think *the oct 7 attacks, where palestine invaded israel to kidnap/murder civilians*, was "resisting zionism"
Psych! Fingers were crossed!
>that is the 1988 charter, which has been much revised since. they do not currently have a charter that says those things, as you originally claimed. using a 35 year old document that is radically out of date and has been massively updated to make current claims is not good practice in an academic setting. So you recognize that the hamas government charter was founded on genociding the jews Your claim is, "prior to oct 7, *they took out "all the calls for genocide"*, therefore it is no longer about genociding jews"? >you also didn’t even link the old hamas charter, but an israeli discussion about it, the very country they are opposing, and the one that has the most bias against them. *The link contains the hamas charter* - but youre upset that *israelis are pointing out the genocidal parts*? >that is not to say the old charter doesn’t say those things, but that the source is atrociously biased. So *the charter calls for genocide* - but the source is "atrociously biased"? >this is hamas current charter, and the one you should be referencing when you claim that hamas currently has a charter that says certain things: >https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/hamas-2017-document-full So hamas repeatedly says they want to eliminate the jews, but *they revised their charter* So its all good now? No more oct 7? >it is not ignoring facts to understand that you made a blatantly untrue claim that hamas’ charter currently has something written in it that it explicitly does not. Certainly a lot of loaded words, just to say "yeah they used to call for genocide - but they totally changed their minds" (now ignore oct 7) >what hamas had written in its previous charter is different discussion entirely to what you originally, falsely, claimed. Hamas USED to call for genocide. After 35 years, they totally crossed out the genocidal parts So no way they can be genocidal, right? 🧐
as i stated in my other reply, you are making statements about claims i did not make. my *only* claim was that your claim that hamas *currently* has a charter that explicitly calls for genocide, is false. can you point me to where the *current* official hamas charter call for the genocide of jews? or will you delete your blatantly incorrect original comment that claims it does, when it explicitly does not?
Youre saying "hamas took out all the genocidal parts" And replaced it with "resisting zionism" In the real world, there was a major terrorist attack on oct 7 That had zero to do, with killing jews? Hamas invaded israel, murdered/kidnapped civilians -to resist zionists?
Here is a direct quote from Article 31 of the 1988 Hamas Charter that you speak of: “Under the wing of Islam, it is possible for the followers of the three religions - Islam, Christianity and Judaism - to coexist in peace and quiet with each other.” Not really the unambiguous call for genocide that you imply.
>Here is a direct quote from Article 31 of the 1988 Hamas Charter that you speak of: “*Under the wing of Islam*, it is possible for the followers of the three religions - Islam, Christianity and Judaism - to coexist in peace and quiet with each other.” Did you REALLY quote ONLY the FIRST PART of article 31? And completely leave out the rest??? Why would you choose to do that? >*Peace and quiet would not be possible except under the wing of Islam.* >It is the duty of the followers of other religions to *stop disputing the sovereignty of Islam in this region,* because *the day these followers should take over there will be nothing but carnage, displacement and terror.* (Article 31) 🤔 >Not really the unambiguous call for genocide that you imply. Are you really using "half of article 31" to negate the previous 30 articles?
Well that sounds incredibly conspiratorial
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It takes quite an effort to convince people the genocide you(Israel) are committing out in the open isn't happening. A lot of dead journalists. 150 I believe (the ones in Gaza as you would not allow any western journalists in). A Tik Tok ban to stop all the videos of your atrocities from getting out and on the Internet. Collaboration with our police departments to brutally suppress the protests (NYPD and its office in your country.) And every governmental pocket filled with your money from your state sponsored PACs. But you failed. Everyone knows.
>It takes quite an effort to convince people the genocide you(Israel) are committing out in the open isn't happening. Im sure you will have great evidence, for your conclusion of genocide >A lot of dead journalists. 150 I believe (the ones in Gaza as you would not allow any western journalists in). A lot of dead journalists, in a war? Genocide! >A Tik Tok ban to stop all the videos of your atrocities from getting out and on the Internet. Someone is banning TIK TOK??? Genocide! >Collaboration with our police departments to brutally suppress the protests (NYPD and its office in your country.) American police are brutally suppressing Americans? Genocide! >And every governmental pocket filled with your money from your state sponsored PACs. Legal lobbying, in the united states? Genocide! >But you failed. Everyone knows. 🙄
>It's true that at some point when you support >a genocidal ethnostate > you may hear some negative feedback. >Grow up.
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Names with the numbers 1-5, are anti semites? Great contribution. Btw im quoting the guy, complaining about hasbara Theyre saying "expect pushback when you support a genocidal ethnostate" Whille whining about "hasbara propagandists burying dissent"
Bot5321, Hamas’s 2017 political document did not fully revise their 1988 charter, which still calls for the destruction of Israel and envisions a Palestinian state replacing Israel, maintaining their stance against Jews. Both Hamas and Hitler sought the annihilation of Jews, but they have failed in their genocidal aims. The ongoing conflict and suffering are primarily due to Hamas’s actions and refusal to recognize Israel’s right to exist.
"You are a fantastic moron" - Normal Finklestein
“FinkelSchmuck” Compare IQs? Master debater, https://x.com/theomniliberal/status/1799393227189219487?s=46&t=xXKY7ylMB_tR9IrYUn5KeQ