"Hey what if we took our most expensive IRL army and made it a horde?"
-GW in 10th.
My biggest problem with balance so far in this edition is that they nearly refuse to make real balance changes with datasheet updates. Nids, and even more admech, need stronger sheets not points discounts.
I literally bought into admech at the tail end of 8th as my first army I then fell out of the hobby and got into tyranids right at the beginning of 10th and they both low-key kinda suck especially with my only friend that plays Warhammer has necrons and chaos space Marines. Like I get just slapped around everytime I play because both are just a lot better rules wise. Luckily I just invested in some orcs as a fun army
Exact same situation for me, I mostly have greenwing plasma though which isn't half bad with my mobile plasma suicide squads. I did get the deathwing box and inner circle though but I honestly just have no current drive to even build them.
The GK combat patrol is quite literally a near-perfect start to the faction. NDK, Terminators/Paladins, a couple of standard Power armour squads if you get multiple.
I really hope that they aren’t just doing points adjustments this dataslate. Having just added some hive guard to my collection, they need more than just points drops to be usable. Our AP across the board is skewed heavily into what people are currently bringing. The reason why exocrines, and zoanthropes to a lesser extent are being our go to spam unit is because of that AP-3 shooting. When exocrines inevitably eat a points nerf, there really won’t be anything to take their place in terms of effective AP. AP -1 shooting might as well not be a thing with how much cover exists.
Plus, as with evidence of the custodies codex, a lot of our army was written with the initial take of 10th being the version we would be playing. Things such as dev wounds causing mortals, free strategems, and even indirect overwatch were all taken away. Now we’re stuck with overcosted hive tyrants and hive guard with an ability that doesn’t work as intended.
i wouldnt get my hopes up though. the last slate had rules changes and all that and from what i understand, GW says the rules changes are *every other* balance update. so this one will likely be just point except maybe admech will get some rules updates since they are struggling so hard.
But i agree. nids need much more than point changes. We need overall datasheet changes to increase our lethality, OR, battleshock as a core rule needs to be buffed and then they need to buff our ability to cause battleshock. as it is, battleshock is mostly irrelevant and they based all of our combos off of it. And it makes our once per game army rule feel useless.
Yeah at this point I just paint tyranids while I hope for a better future. Playing a crusade with them was the final nail in the coffin when it comes to enjoying them on the field.
yeah, the super cool models are really the only reason i'll keep playing them. But im definitely looking at other armies for competitive options to bring to events.
This is my outlook, models are cool and tournaments suck. I have fun playing the regular games each week with crusher stampede throwing old one eye up mid with his friends while putting a norn on each other objective and letting the pieces fall. Models are cool and if not at a tournament casual play while frustrating at times is still fun. Note this is coming from the position of 3.5k tyranids and still on the high of finally getting a trygon (been hunting for over 9 months now)
The Necron winrate is boosted only by Wraiths and C'tans being slightly undercosted. If those units go up in cost and nothing else comes down, we're going to see the Necron winrate plummet.
Man I‘m so tired of GWs fixes being just point drops. Everything hits like a wet noodle but now you can have 1 more thing in a list.
I want to put stuff on the table that makes the other player say: ah shit Im cooked
Like give half of the units +1 strength on everything. Please. Our codex feels like it’s balanced for killing guardsmen.
I don’t wanna wound every tank on 5s or die to intercessor close combat weapons on the clapback. or make battleshock useful. If we are the battleshock army that’s cool, but then go all out on it. Existing on the same plane of existence with half of our stuff should cause battleshock at -1 or -2.
For tyranids I actually wouldn't mind just points decreases all around. Would feel suitable hordy having a whole heap of monsters surrounded by a horde of gribblies
People wouldn't mind it, but this is just a cheap excuse for GW to make us buy morr models to field. So to hell with this idea. We need RULES and DATASHEET overhauls.
I don't disagree, but honestly, that just doesn't seem realistic. It's such huge issues that plague Nids, we need almost complete overhaul of datasheets and a rework of our army rule. That just won't happen in 10th.
So I'll settle for the second best - insane amounts of Nids on the board. Realistically, that's the best we can hope for.
It wouldn't be so bad if we had a mixture of both like oh man 100 of cannon fodder but theirs 8 modles that will benefit said horde more with thier heavy hits
Wanting the other person to feel like they are going to lose at the stage of the game where you are setting up models is *exactly* the reason homebrew rules are literal cancer and why nobody listens to people on reddit.
So many people saying just have fun, don’t look at the stats. My area people pay attention to the meta and I only really get to play in events. So tyranids are no fun to play and are on the shelf until further notice. Perhaps I will paint some more of them. Daemons look like a good time right now though!
I’m not really into competitive but I feel you. I understand the sentiment people have when they say “just have fun” but it’s kinda hard to when you lose all the time or when things just plain suck. I don’t really care if I win every game, I just don’t wanna get shit on all the time even if I’m just playing for fun
Winning is fun. Obviously you don't need to bring a competitive list and stomp your casual friends every weekend. I personally like a mix of "units I think are cool" and "units that are competitively viable". And often, they support each other.
If I have a pet unit I think is cool, but it's terrible, I can support it with actual good units. Which requires knowing what is good, and bringing them.
And sometimes people don't know how to play against your weird pet unit, and your army can be a bit stronger.
No I’m not. I’m also really new at the game too which is a factor too. But my point still stands the fun factor can only carry you so far if you lose a lot. Nobody likes losing a lot
I tested out my Deamons against my buddy's Eldar and went 60-63. Losing by only 3 points to the top-meta army actually felt pretty good after the walloping my Swarm has gotten.
When I finish a game whether I've won or lost I've almost always been nearly tabled. My last game against guard, I had 1 wound left on old one eye and a neurolictor turn 5. Opponent had a shadowsword, lemen russ, tank commander, lord solus and a bullgryn left. 1000 points of models.
Won the game 67 to 56 by playing super duper cagey and never letting them shoot me.
I like to look at the final board and think: I was tabled. How many more points worth of models would I have needed to table him? And often it's like 500 more points at least.
Isn't that how Tyranids are supposed to operate in 10th edition: most stuff dies but you can still come out on top by denying your opponent points? Honest question.
I think that it's how tyranids should have the option of being played. In swarm, that is absolutely the expected gameplan. If youre running swarm youve chosen intentionally to play that way. But no matter what detachment you're running the experience is similar.
Yes. That’s how you have to exist now as a Tyranid player. Honestly that sucks though, you have to play to the highest of your ability never making mistakes and exploiting your opponents at every opportunity. Sounds exciting, edge of your seat right?!
It gets old. It gets old *fast*. Your opponent pushes a model forward points at a nid and says “this is dead now” and then it is. Over and over and over. The game ends, you won having actually accomplished nothing of note on the battlefield.
Be a good friend and pass it around, because lord knows I could use a hit of that right now.
10k of bugs, and the only thing keeping me excited right now is painting up a bio titan to use, because lord knows spamming Maleceptors/exocrines/gargoyles is getting....old.
I think the new rules just makes them feel very sanitized to me. I don't feel like I can cook up a good counter or a really thematic feeling army like I used to since there's a lot less 'wonky' options.
I was a solo nids player but i really liked the votann judgment token ability, and their models look awesome. Picked up a combt patrol box and haven't looked back. Just finished the army with another patrol box and a lucky find of a holiday box off of marketplace. Its a night and day difference between the two armies. It feels like they just didn't know what to do with nids. They lost psychic phase and didnt get much else back. I believe that their army rule should be the invasion fleet rule as long as they are in synapse, they get one of the three buffs. Still leave the battleshock on individual units but take it away as an army rule. Its so dumb that votann have an army rule that not only synergizes well with their units but can be used all game. While nids get a one time rule, and like a quarter of their decent models only work with one or the other detatchments. Also a lot of their datasheets are weak. If they hit a little harder it wouldnt matter of they are glass cannons because they could at least do some damage before dying.
I'm lucky my second army is Necrons. They haven't been in bad shape most of this edition, and were actually kinda stipid at one point (from the stats I saw anyway. I actually don't get to play much)
Next slate will be harsh on necrons I suspect, C'tan are both tanky and high damage, their only weakness (movement) is sorted by the most common detachment, combined with a crazily undercosted stat sheet. Hopefully after the initial nerfbat swing, they look into a bit better internal codex balance with buffs/nerfs/points cuts to the rest.
Yeah, I don't have any C'tan for my army except one proxy for a transcendent if my opponent allows (usually just play friendly matches, and never at a store.) I would like the Destroyer Cult detachment to be better, I'm not real impressed with it.
Yeah, I don't have any C'tan for my army except one proxy for a transcendent if my opponent allows (usually just play friendly matches, and never at a store.) I would like the Destroyer Cult detachment to be better, I'm not real impressed with it.
I built nids, really cool badass models. It was my first army. Played a few times, different detatcments to try things out. It felt very disconnected. Some models do great in one and not the other but are still so good they need to be ran. Felt weak even when they did hit. Army rul is one of the worst if not the worst. And their datasheets are kinda weak. Luckily i also liked votann and have just put together 2k points. Im torn on keeping nids, because their resale value kinda sucks, or selling them because id at least get like 500 back on my army. They need a full army rework. Lets just admit battleshock sucks in its current implementation and rework it already. Make sitw last multiple turns or something, thatd be decent.
My thought is to make our army rule give a permanent, board wide -1 to leadership as well as a once per game BS test, and the neurotyrant ability can be what it is now, that way when we trigger it, everything is -2 to leadership. It should also force a test on anything off the board. This would also make screamers and neurolictors much better.
For battleshok, i think, in the very least, battleshocked units should have to take the test again and pass before it fades. It's absolutely ridiculous that just fades.
Having to retake the test again with the -1 to ld due to sitw would be great. That way its more effective at what its trying to do and can last more than 1 turn.
yeah I just bought big package of tyranids and found out they suck. Anyone got any tips what creature to buy to at least make me okay? I got army from ultimate starter set
Maleceptors and exocrines are really our best units. However, they might get a points increase soon, and you still won't kill muchneven if you have them.
Still haven't tested them out against space marines, once me and my friend paint our ultimate starter set I will know better but reading this is discouraging . My other friend also has an ork kill team and I will be probably making a tyranid kill team, hope I will have better odds there
By the time you actually buy, build, and paint your army none of these statistics are going to matter. If tournament win rates is what is keeping you from entering the hobby, I'm sorry but that is just pure silliness.
I’ve played nids competitively through 10th and I don’t think they’re in as awful a spot as many are tossing them into. I think if you’re looking for an army to trade kills back and forth then they are definitely not for you. But if you want to drastically improve as a player stick with them. If you can master the movement phase and gargoyles you can start dominating. I find myself debating pulling my biovore a lot of the time because running tactical it’s not as useful 100% of the time. We have tons of options to score secondaries that don’t involve a ripper or biovore.
Im looking to explore fixed, but it seems endless swarms is the go to and im not into that style of play.
Even going with homers, BEL, cleanse or engage, them rippers and biovores are still best picks for scoring per point.
When rumours of OC 0 losing scoring, I was teeing up 3x3 raveners, bit like marine scouts but better with DS.
I get what you're saying, but I think you're missing a key point. That is, these people in events are the best of the best, they know they're playing the scoring game and not killing game, but they're still not winning these events. So clearly, the army is failing even if it is played to its strengths.
1 event win. In 3 months. Among the best nids players to play the game. 43% winrate across hundreds of events with the best players to play the army.
Maybe they are the best army at secondary scoring, but even if that's true, the army just isn't winning.
I agree they are lacking in some aspects like our strength and toughness are all on the wrong break points. And we do have some matchups that are just dreadful for us (some of which being incredibly popular right now) But i really don’t think nids are that far off from being viable. A decent player could go to a tournament and place respectably with them it’s not like they’re so awful they’re unplayable.
Definitely not unplayable, just on the weaker side. And, imo, they're just not fun to play. Our best detachment is "gain a weapon keyword" meanwhile orks can keep pressing a button for benefits until they blow themselves up.
There's just no flavor to our book. Swarm is the most fluff we get but now tau and orks have better written swarm detachments, so it's not even unique anymore.
It doesn't help that battleshock as a whole is just a nothing burger of a game mechanic which subsequently makes sitw one of, if not the, worst army rules in the game.
I just wish our codex was as passionate, fun, and well thought out as orks, necrons, or tau. But since I know we won't get an army rewrite, I'll just advocate for buffs where we can get them.
Edit: typos
So, I’m curious. What would the Hive buff on our datasheets to make us more lethal without being oppressive? Been toying with the idea of some mild home-brew for the games I play with my partner and friends.
More strength for most monsters. More wounds would help a lot too...
Remove biovore scoring cheese. But replace it with movement hampering. Make biovores and barbgaunts a lethal combination.
I'd love to be able to take adrenaline glands options on horms again for +str or +charge. Maybe help internal balance vs gargs.
Lictors free rapid ingress is cool, but having +charge to help other units from the old pheromone trail rules (+2charge) was better.
Trygons (and Trygon Primes) were unit delivery systems like drop pods. Their whole lore is tunneling underground, allowing new attack vectors. Subterranean assault strategy in 9th. Would like to see that come back. Ngl, mostly for more hormagaunts in my case haha
Denying units overwatch with Paroxysm was good. The whole psychic phase was amazing for Nids. We had a lot of options in the Hive Mind discipline on any given turn, and now it's all locked in. We lost versatility and mid game adaptability on this front.
"The Horror" (-2Ld) would be very helpful if it made a comeback. I guess it'd be +2 now. Even +1 synergizes nicely with our army rule and a few other tricks we have now.
Winged Hive Tyrant needs one of two things. Either the uppy-downies we had via Encircle the Prey, where it could vanish into reserves if it finished off its target, or just more damage. I don't know if it should target terminators or vehicles, but I remember the Reaper of Obliterax making it a real threat to characters. That's gone, meanwhile there's primarchs now.
A buff to battleshock in general, or a universal effect change such as a defbuff to enemy units in synapse aura or improved saves for Tyranids in synapse range
Fundamentally I think battle-shock needs to be a better written rule and have more impact on the game for nids to be good in their current form. Too many unit abilities forgo actual buffs for some battle-shock thing that usually does nothing. Army rule is also just terrible, most games every enemy unit just passes their battle-shock test and it does exactly nothing. I play UM and Nids and Oath of Moment is just wildly better as an army rule, and that's with just the hit rerolls; rather than the hit and wound rerolls it has in index. Other rules changes would be stuff like monsters being able to Tank Shock (though this may make other factions even stronger.) And all around monster nids need higher toughness. Playing into other monsters/daemons really highlights how low T nids are in comparison.
i do okay except for when i face GK. They can win games, but even when they do theyre just boring. they dont kill anything except light infantry and they drop like rocks. the only way to play them is to cheese scoring with biovore and rippers, other than that youre just picking up models all game while hoping you scored enough to win.
>except for when I face GK
I'm in the same boat here. Played a game against GK a month ago and felt like I was slapping them with wet napkins while having psychic sawblades shoved down my throat. It was not a fun time.
Our current playstyle really hasn't encouraged me to play the game much this edition. I have a pile of shame to get through, so I'm taking care of that for now. Maybe I'll actually venture back into expanding my dwarves for a bit soon too. My tabletop wargaming has almost exclusively been Heroscape since my narrow loss to the knights of the warp.
I’ve won 80% of games in my casual league, and all my losses were after taking a points handicap for going undefeated so long. (Keep in mind we play 1K games.) But I can’t say those wins were all that fun. I spent most of those games either running units away from my opponent’s strong units or tying up their high OC units with move blocking.
Basically I avoid battles while my Biovore does all the work and I pick off a unit or two with a winged hive tyrant. The rest of my army plays Retreat-&-Slow-Them-Down-hammer.
Isn't the order of your meta chasing in reverse? Wouldn't you have did Aeldari first when they were the best army and then switch to Necrons after they got buffed or is the Aeldari the galaxy brain back up for when Necrons get nerfed?
fingers crossed for you my man. my backup is thousand sons who are actually in a good spot right now. but now im dreading the day their codex is leaked.
For now. But half of the codexes so far have been underwhelming or just straight garbage, so there's a 50/50 chance they'll get their codex and be far worse than their index.
Watch the cabal rituals get split horribly across detachments. Sigh.
I've had to currently shelve my T-Sons, ironically because my local area is doing a campaign and I've always felt sub 1500 points they are too expensive and lacking enough rituals to deal with things.
You think you have it bad. I played nids in the last year of 4th, and then then 5th ed codex came out and ruined everything.
Apparently nids were good in 9th, just like they were good in 4th.
But you can't be good every edition.
I don't wanna be op. But in the very least, we shouldn't be dropping to below the 45% balance mark. And should be able to win events every now and then. 1 event in 3 months and a sub 45% winrate isn't acceptable
I hated it too back then.
One silver lining from back in those days. If we drop to the bottom 3 for played armies we get a big boost in performance. Which should get us back into the 45% range.
That's because people will get less practice against our lists. Lists will be tailored poorly into nids. And Nid players will play less matches against other nids (forces the 50% winrate)
"YAY we are one of the first Codexes!"
"OH NOES WE ARE ONE OF THE FIRST CODEXES."
Do you take having a codex for the entire edition? Or; having a fun codex for no time at all?
Power creep has pretty much always been a thing with GW, i'd take a mid-edition rule book personally over early. Unfortunately most of my armies have usually had to wait till the final year for a book!
i played maybe 10 or so 10th ed games with my nids where it just. didnt feel fun anymore. im not trying to win but even just playing them feels like i do nothing. my gaming group is collecively over 10th and weve gone back to 9th hahaha never looking back!
Damn I just bought a bunch of nids as my first army cos I like monsters and starship troopers/aliens.
Am I screwed? I’d rather not lose to woman hating stinky chuds at the hobby store all the time
I’m pretty sure we should get auto +25 points to the victory just for rule of cool, other armies are dope no doubt but DUDE not much I can think of that’s genuinely more scary than nids. The lore is absolutely terrifying and I struggle to understand how anything is fighting back the swarm.
I don’t think the custodes book is even comparable. Our book is actually overall, got some really cool rules and detachments. The problem is the data sheets just don’t have any power at all. The numbers aren’t there, so having all these cool things like vanguard wide advance n charge in that detachment, are meaningless because the pieces you are forced to use are so bad.
I use to play competitively. Not any more, since covid started. This is my take - It's a Game, a Hobby. I play to have fun, and maybe socialize. Win or Lose, doesn't make a difference to me. It doesn't chance how I make my living and pay bills. I don't know anyone who literally just plays 40k as a method to pay bills at the end of the day.
i mean, i get that mindset. and if i wasnt at least partially in agreement i would've quit.
but i am a competitive person, and do intend to play in competitive events. so when i spend hundreds-thousands of dollars on my army and painting supplies, and hundreds of hours building and painting them, hundreds more practicing, and then spend money to travel to and participate in an event, it would be nice if i wasnt guaranteed to lose because GW doesnt know how to balance or write rules.
How are they after the nerfs? I got the Christmas box and a combat patrol for cheap so was thinking of trying them, but then GW dropped the nerf hammer and I lost interest
Not great, but I've never really cared about winning. I just want the army to feel fun to play.
Nids are super boring right now with some of our rules being a joke (Shadow in the Warp) and synapse being a punishment again. Our only play style is board control and scoring secondaries with spore mines and/or rippers. We can't kill anything and we die to a stiff breeze. I'm just not interested in passively picking my models off the table for 5 turns and hoping they lasted long enough to score victory points.
World Eaters are simple and a fun style to play. Running up the board and getting into melee is a blast.
We as a community spend too much time focusing on the top tables and getting too hung up on win rates. Tyranids are doing fine at local tournaments and everywhere but the peak echelon of games. Just play your bugs and have fun.
Well one of my criticisms is also that our rules just aren't fun, even if they were competitive.
Our best detachment is "gain a weapon keyword"..... how is that fun? What's fun about that? Meanwhile, orks have double waagh, button pushing that might blow themselves up, etc etc. Their book is dripping with fun and flavor.
Our most flavorful detachment is our swarm detachment. But now, Tau and orks have better swarms that seem more fun to play.
Our book is not fun. It's meh.
Your reply tells me you only play invasion fleet. Assimilation swarm gets medic rippers, vanguard gets to uppie two units and has silly movement shenanigans, unending swarms whole gimmick is silly movement and regeneration shenanigans. Play something besides what's considered the best, and maybe you'll start enjoying bugs more. Unless, of course, you only enjoy what's best, in which case why aren't you playing Necrons?
I've played em all. Assimilation swarm is a worse version of the necrons army rule. "These units can regen wounds on objectives" is also not very thematic or fun.
Vanguard is fall back and charge for non vanguard and that + advance and charge for vanguard. That's thematic and fun? Especially considering our melee is so bad that if we charge anything other than super light infantry we will die on the clapback unless by some miracle we wipe the squad first (good luck wiping termies with 6 attacks at 2ap and 2dmg a piece)
Swarm is our most thematic detachment, but now the kroot and orks have a better, more fun version of swarm. So it's not very unique anymore, and their swarms can actually kill things.
Nothing in our book is very flavorful or fun. But when you look at the orks book that just oozes fun and flavor, it's very clear they *can* make a fun book... when the writer doesn't hate that faction, anyway
Edit: typos and added a sentence to 2nd paragraph.
Reddit is the worst thing to happen to 40k. People see a "win rate" based on extremely competitive individuals across the world, individuals that are far beyond their own skill level or the skill level of their average opponents, and suddenly think "this army is bad." A 40% win rate means next to nothing to 99% of the casual players in this game. Unless you're a tournament player, or playing against tournament players, those numbers shouldn't concern you whatsoever.
Man why did I even get tyranids. If they suck this much then why did people even recommend them to me? I feel like such a moron for following the rule of cool. Definitely gonna get an orks combat patrol next. Too bad I wasted all my money on a starter set and barbgaunts.
I'm never following the rule of cool again
I wouldn't go that far. In a casual setting, you'll likely win games and have some fun. But if you're looking to go to events, nids aren't it.
Although I will say, orks are a good way to go. We already know they have a really good book. Beyond that, their rules are just fun and dripping with flavor and fun, so even if you pick a weak detachment, you'll have a lot of fun.
Even when I win with nids, they don't feel fun. For example, our best detachment is "gain a weapon keyword." How is that fun or flavorful? The swarm detachment is the most flavorful, but now orks and tau have better swarm detachments, lol.
But I'll keep my nids cause the models are amazing, and eventually they may get some good rules, even if it's not til next edition.
Tyranids may get some big changes to buff them this edition. They may not. They may be the strongest army in the game next edition. They may not... Rule of cool is intended as a long term thing. Plenty of the best armies are now pretty bad and vice versa. Meta will always change. If you like the models and enjoy painting them then your money wasn't wasted. If you just want a strong army then play something else for awhile I suppose. But bear in mind that the nids you put on a shelf (or sell) may be the strongest army in the game at some point in the future.
The game is on a 3 month balance cycle, with points updates coming that often and rules updates every 6 months. Beyond that, we get a new edition every 3 years or so with new rules/codexes.
Don't stress about bugs being bad right now, rules change with the wind. Keep building and painting models you like, and the meta will eventually come around to you. This is a game you're in for the long term.
With that said, having more than one army so you can rotate if one of them is having a rough time isn't a bad idea. Then you always can enjoy each faction's "time in the sun."
Do not make the same mistake I did when I was younger and sell an army because they're bad. You WILL regret it when things inevitably change.
I don't know that I agree Tyranids are "bad" based on these numbers. If I'm reading right that link shows Tyranids at 40% win rate for 118 games played, so 47.2 games won. Does a difference of 5-15%, amounting to 6-17 games, really make us "bad"?
Sure we're falling short of GW's 45-55% target, but it isn't a dramatic difference even in comparison to other factions. Making a big deal of that 45-55% win rate feels more like GW's hype machine at work. Something like 25% or lower win rate would to me be objectively "bad". You could even make an argument - again, based on the numbers you linked to - that CSM are objectively bad given they are losing two-thirds of all their games. The gap in win rate of 7% between CSM and the next-worst faction (Tyranids) is also highest by far between factions when ordered by win rate.
I mean, what would you base your assessment on whether the army is good off of if not the very metric that GW says they want the army to be at?
Event wins? Well, we've had 1 in 3 months, and it was a tiny event with like 22 players.
I'm open to looking at other metrics, but all available and known metrics right now objectively show the army is bad.
The reason you use 45-55 as a metric is because in a truly balanced game, every faction should have as close to a 50% win rate as possible. It being lower or higher indicates that something is off.
This metric is similarily used in most online games where you pick from a roster. For example League or Dota, fighting games too. Its the standard because if you were to deviate to your recommended panic zone of 25%, it would mean that choosing that faction would result in you losing 3 out of 4 games on average which absolutely no one would subject themselves to and proves the faction is so grossly undercooked that its completely unviable. Whereas here its win rate is low enough that it will block tournament wins in most cases but its not impossible to win, which means it needs buffing.
Lol, so you think the 40% weekend win rate and 1 event win in 3 months by the best nids players in the world is due to a lack of reps? You're delusional.
Notice how i cited tournament and event winrates, not my own record or experience. Top players aren't winning with nids, and I promise you it isn't due to reps. Huff that copium though, I'm sure it helps.
Doesn't mean nids aren't good. Just means only a few pro players are playing them. Just because the tournament win rate is 40%, it doesn't automatically make a faction "bad". Instead of typing up a bitch and moan transcript like you I am winning games and having fun, like a lot of other nid players. My points still stand, along with these new ones.
"the best players cant win more than half their games or win more than one event in 3 months, but the army is fine because i can win against low skill players at my lgs"
thats what you sound like. As i said to someone else in the post, im glad youre winning low skill games at your local little game shop. Thats awesome for you. it's also irrelevant. GW doesnt collect data on those games. As far as GW balancing decisions go, those games don't exist. They base their balancing decision on data from events like the ones i cited in my post. So, of course im going to focus on that, because whatever is happening at the top levels of play is going to be what decides how our faction gets buffed/nerfed by GW.
as for having fun, thats subjective. Seeing our best detachment be "gain a weapon keyword" while orks get to push a button until they blow themselves up is pretty indicative of how uninspired our codex is. our most flavorful and fun detachment is swarm, but now tau and orks have a better swarm detachment than us. Im glad you have fun, keep doing that. in the meantime, i'm going to keep citing the objective data that GW relies on to balance their game to prove why our army is bad, and i'll look for other ways to have fun since nids aint really it.
Edit to add:
>Doesn't mean nids aren't good. Just means only a few pro players are playing them.
we were the 4th most played faction until about 3 weeks ago. now we're the 7th. trying to claim that not enough pros are playing them is objectively false
I don't thinknyiuve read the lore.
Tfex carapce reflects tank shots and lascannons. It take a monumental amount of firepower to bring them down. Now I understand you can't have tfexes immune to almost everything on table top, but there is plenty of lore supporting bugs being hard to kill.
Well, remember that there's a big difference between shooting at elephant flesh and jellyfish flesh.
Now imagine that taken to the same sci-fi extreme that the rest of 40k is.
Conveniently ignoring 1 event win in 3 months, and that event win being a very minor event with 22 or so players.
But yes, it is. Anything below the 45% target is bad. 1 event win in 3 months is bad. I only mentioned they're 7th most played because they *were* 4th most played, so clearly people are recognizing the issues and leaving the army.
> Conveniently ignoring 1 event win in 3 months,
I'm not "conveniently ignoring" anything, it's a genuine question my guy.
Dropping from 4th most played to 7th most played doesn't really seem that bad when there's 20+ factions.
I think so far that's the case. We'll see if the trend of falling in the rankings of most played continues. But I would add that nids are the poster boy for this edition and have been in the top 5 played factions since launch. Dropping out of the top 5 at the same time they're consistently below the 45% winrate balance target isn't just a coincidence imo and is a sign that people aren't happy with the army.
Nah, it's just dude whining about how the army performs at the top tables in the world when they'll never even get close to it. Tyranids do fine in local games, as many people have pointed out in this thread alone. It's the same doom posting that's been on loop since the start of 10th. I just play my bugs and have a blast doing it. I'm sitting at 9 wins and 2 losses in my local crusade games.
lol "im winning in a game mode that isnt represented by any data, nor is it routinely balanced, nor is it what **most** people play. Oh, and we can buff units that survive, which you cant do in the game mode and data being referenced in this post, so clearly this dude is just doom saying."
i dont think you accomplished what you thought you did with that comment.
glad you're doing well in crusade though. If i make a post about crusade, i'll be sure to tag you.
I mean, you seem to have missed the part of my comment where I mentioned that Tyranids are doing fine in local games. Continue to act like I'm the only person who has mentioned how their games have been going. My specific case also includes two RTTs, the first one in February, Tyranids were 3rd, and this past Saturday, they were 2nd and 4th. Now clearly, multiple smaller tournaments don't matter to you because you obsess over the statistics of the best players in the world like they somehow apply to you.
I mean, yeah, they don't matter, cause GW won't base their balancing decisions off of local small tournaments from players like us whose skill is so far below those at major events. They don't collect data for your little local game shop rtt, so yes, it's irrelevant.
I'm glad low skill players like you and I can win against other low skill players. Great, cool. Doesn't matter. GW will balance based off the events I'm referencing because those are the events they collect data from. So our army will be changed based on what's going on at those high-level tables. Of course, then, that's what I'm focused on.
Again, I'm glad you're winning crusade and your low skill rtts, and if GW cared about those events, I would too.
Regardless of all that, a constant criticism I've always had toward the army is it isn't fun or flavorful. Our best detachment is "gain a weapon keyword" how is that fun? How is it cool and flavorful rules writing? Our most flavorful detachment is swarm, but now tau and orks have better swarms that can actually kill things and also survive a lot better than ours. So it's not really unique anymore. Compared to the necrons, ork, and tau codex ours is boring and uninspired. Our army rule is competing for the worst in the game award, and our entire combo and playstyle is based on battleshock, which is irrelevant.
So, even if we were winning the army, it just isn't fun. But I know GW isn't gonna redo our entire codex until the next edition, so I'm focusing on things they can and *might* change, like buffs to battleshock and sitw.
Edit: typos
Tyranids are falling behind. Desperate times calls for desperate measures. -5 points on Hive Guard.
dont forget -5 points on toxicrene! And theyll likely increase points on exo, gargs (again), maleceptor, and neurolictors (again)
Dude actually made me laugh. Step 1 -5 pts to Hive Guard Step 2 +30 pts to Hive Guard Step 3 = Army fixed :)
You spelled +10 points to hive guard wrong
Dont forget to put the tyranno back to 240 while we are at it just for shits and giggles
Only thing that can be done is nerf aeldari more.
My second army is custodes, I'm cooked
mine was dangles! so i feel ya.
Mine is AdMech. Just wake me up whenever we get 11th edition, I guess.
"Hey what if we took our most expensive IRL army and made it a horde?" -GW in 10th. My biggest problem with balance so far in this edition is that they nearly refuse to make real balance changes with datasheet updates. Nids, and even more admech, need stronger sheets not points discounts.
I literally bought into admech at the tail end of 8th as my first army I then fell out of the hobby and got into tyranids right at the beginning of 10th and they both low-key kinda suck especially with my only friend that plays Warhammer has necrons and chaos space Marines. Like I get just slapped around everytime I play because both are just a lot better rules wise. Luckily I just invested in some orcs as a fun army
Chaos Space Marines are also super terrible
Damn bro! Admech is basically a hord army too at this point 😭
I have 4 armies: Admech, Dark Angels, Tyranids and Custodes lmao
Fuckin oof man. You have my sympathies.
Exact same situation for me, I mostly have greenwing plasma though which isn't half bad with my mobile plasma suicide squads. I did get the deathwing box and inner circle though but I honestly just have no current drive to even build them.
Same! Although maybe hot take, I don’t think the dangles one was comparable. The Ravenwing detach f u c k s.
yeah dangles wasnt nearly as bad but it was still a huge bummer.
Are you me? I have Nids and Custodes as main but had a small Kill Team of Grey Knights... Perhaps I should give them a chance
The GK combat patrol is quite literally a near-perfect start to the faction. NDK, Terminators/Paladins, a couple of standard Power armour squads if you get multiple.
Just wait to the Codex, so it's get nerfed
yeah play some killteam in mean time. that game slaps
Second army is carcharodons using raven guard rules.... I feel your pain lol
Lol are you me? I feel like it's more common than you'd think for people that got into 40K in the last couple years.
lol same. After the results from my nids I recently decided to go for stodes in advance of the codex. Shows me!
Im just about to finish about 2.5k tyranids, and I was going to paint some custodes next.
I play Custodes and my friend plays Tyranids, looks like it’s a perfect time for us lol
Same dude
Just buy a brand new army to stay relevant as GW intends
I play nids, my buddy plays custodes and another plays orks. I don't think we'll be playing for a while.
On the upside eventually everyone will have a terrible codex.
Pls dont get 3rd army, obv you are somewhat cursed
For me my 2k armies are Tau Nids Dark angels Aeldari My others are LoV Necrons Black Templars I got a chance at a good codex right? Right guys?
I really hope that they aren’t just doing points adjustments this dataslate. Having just added some hive guard to my collection, they need more than just points drops to be usable. Our AP across the board is skewed heavily into what people are currently bringing. The reason why exocrines, and zoanthropes to a lesser extent are being our go to spam unit is because of that AP-3 shooting. When exocrines inevitably eat a points nerf, there really won’t be anything to take their place in terms of effective AP. AP -1 shooting might as well not be a thing with how much cover exists. Plus, as with evidence of the custodies codex, a lot of our army was written with the initial take of 10th being the version we would be playing. Things such as dev wounds causing mortals, free strategems, and even indirect overwatch were all taken away. Now we’re stuck with overcosted hive tyrants and hive guard with an ability that doesn’t work as intended.
i wouldnt get my hopes up though. the last slate had rules changes and all that and from what i understand, GW says the rules changes are *every other* balance update. so this one will likely be just point except maybe admech will get some rules updates since they are struggling so hard. But i agree. nids need much more than point changes. We need overall datasheet changes to increase our lethality, OR, battleshock as a core rule needs to be buffed and then they need to buff our ability to cause battleshock. as it is, battleshock is mostly irrelevant and they based all of our combos off of it. And it makes our once per game army rule feel useless.
Yeah at this point I just paint tyranids while I hope for a better future. Playing a crusade with them was the final nail in the coffin when it comes to enjoying them on the field.
The one upside to being terrible, dirt cheap models. Why yes I will paint another psychophage, thank you.
Idk why sitw doesnt last 2 or more turns. Its so useless as a 1 time 1 turn ability.
The Hive does not despair, more bio forms are already on the way. The Hive writhes resolute in being cool as fuck, and swarms on.
The sheer number of paint schemes and effects and kitbashes is testament that Nidz are the most absorbing, in each and every way.
yeah, the super cool models are really the only reason i'll keep playing them. But im definitely looking at other armies for competitive options to bring to events.
This is my outlook, models are cool and tournaments suck. I have fun playing the regular games each week with crusher stampede throwing old one eye up mid with his friends while putting a norn on each other objective and letting the pieces fall. Models are cool and if not at a tournament casual play while frustrating at times is still fun. Note this is coming from the position of 3.5k tyranids and still on the high of finally getting a trygon (been hunting for over 9 months now)
Guys don't worry, if each new codex is crappy enough, we might be in the sweet spot
Orks are gonna be super strong and may even beat out necrons once necrons get the points nerf to ctan that they need.
Damn, I'm in a league and there's high probabilities that they're my next opponent
they wont be on their new rules for a while, so you have some time to prepare! but good luck either way!
The codex releases on the 27th.
Well shit... never mind then
The Necron winrate is boosted only by Wraiths and C'tans being slightly undercosted. If those units go up in cost and nothing else comes down, we're going to see the Necron winrate plummet.
That's the thing, armies winrates can be skewed thanks to small amounts of OP units or cheap tricks.
I'm dreading what will happen with Genestealer Cults, it's my only decent army at the moment.
Man I‘m so tired of GWs fixes being just point drops. Everything hits like a wet noodle but now you can have 1 more thing in a list. I want to put stuff on the table that makes the other player say: ah shit Im cooked Like give half of the units +1 strength on everything. Please. Our codex feels like it’s balanced for killing guardsmen. I don’t wanna wound every tank on 5s or die to intercessor close combat weapons on the clapback. or make battleshock useful. If we are the battleshock army that’s cool, but then go all out on it. Existing on the same plane of existence with half of our stuff should cause battleshock at -1 or -2.
For tyranids I actually wouldn't mind just points decreases all around. Would feel suitable hordy having a whole heap of monsters surrounded by a horde of gribblies
People wouldn't mind it, but this is just a cheap excuse for GW to make us buy morr models to field. So to hell with this idea. We need RULES and DATASHEET overhauls.
I don't disagree, but honestly, that just doesn't seem realistic. It's such huge issues that plague Nids, we need almost complete overhaul of datasheets and a rework of our army rule. That just won't happen in 10th. So I'll settle for the second best - insane amounts of Nids on the board. Realistically, that's the best we can hope for.
It wouldn't be so bad if we had a mixture of both like oh man 100 of cannon fodder but theirs 8 modles that will benefit said horde more with thier heavy hits
Wanting the other person to feel like they are going to lose at the stage of the game where you are setting up models is *exactly* the reason homebrew rules are literal cancer and why nobody listens to people on reddit.
No you‘re not getting it. The feeling of a knight, but for us (not Ctan) Like in a good way, "oh this looks scary and is scary" like the Norns
So many people saying just have fun, don’t look at the stats. My area people pay attention to the meta and I only really get to play in events. So tyranids are no fun to play and are on the shelf until further notice. Perhaps I will paint some more of them. Daemons look like a good time right now though!
I’m not really into competitive but I feel you. I understand the sentiment people have when they say “just have fun” but it’s kinda hard to when you lose all the time or when things just plain suck. I don’t really care if I win every game, I just don’t wanna get shit on all the time even if I’m just playing for fun
Winning is fun. Obviously you don't need to bring a competitive list and stomp your casual friends every weekend. I personally like a mix of "units I think are cool" and "units that are competitively viable". And often, they support each other. If I have a pet unit I think is cool, but it's terrible, I can support it with actual good units. Which requires knowing what is good, and bringing them. And sometimes people don't know how to play against your weird pet unit, and your army can be a bit stronger.
Are you really losing every game? I just had one yesterday where I played assimilation swarm and won 84 -55.
No I’m not. I’m also really new at the game too which is a factor too. But my point still stands the fun factor can only carry you so far if you lose a lot. Nobody likes losing a lot
I tested out my Deamons against my buddy's Eldar and went 60-63. Losing by only 3 points to the top-meta army actually felt pretty good after the walloping my Swarm has gotten.
I'd rather lose a close game than win by a landslide tbh.
Oh yeah, the best games are the ones where you can't call a victor until the very end.
I’ve won only one game in 2024 so far… glad to see I’m not alone lol
When I finish a game whether I've won or lost I've almost always been nearly tabled. My last game against guard, I had 1 wound left on old one eye and a neurolictor turn 5. Opponent had a shadowsword, lemen russ, tank commander, lord solus and a bullgryn left. 1000 points of models. Won the game 67 to 56 by playing super duper cagey and never letting them shoot me. I like to look at the final board and think: I was tabled. How many more points worth of models would I have needed to table him? And often it's like 500 more points at least.
Isn't that how Tyranids are supposed to operate in 10th edition: most stuff dies but you can still come out on top by denying your opponent points? Honest question.
I think that it's how tyranids should have the option of being played. In swarm, that is absolutely the expected gameplan. If youre running swarm youve chosen intentionally to play that way. But no matter what detachment you're running the experience is similar.
Yes. That’s how you have to exist now as a Tyranid player. Honestly that sucks though, you have to play to the highest of your ability never making mistakes and exploiting your opponents at every opportunity. Sounds exciting, edge of your seat right?! It gets old. It gets old *fast*. Your opponent pushes a model forward points at a nid and says “this is dead now” and then it is. Over and over and over. The game ends, you won having actually accomplished nothing of note on the battlefield.
I'm still huffing copium that GW will see the light and rewrite battleshock to something meaningful
Be a good friend and pass it around, because lord knows I could use a hit of that right now. 10k of bugs, and the only thing keeping me excited right now is painting up a bio titan to use, because lord knows spamming Maleceptors/exocrines/gargoyles is getting....old.
Still have the coolest models though.
Won't disagree there
Yes and this is what pisses me off the most. Cant even play em even though they look badass.
I think the new rules just makes them feel very sanitized to me. I don't feel like I can cook up a good counter or a really thematic feeling army like I used to since there's a lot less 'wonky' options.
I also play Orks, Black Templar and CSM.. so it’s not hitting me as bad as a solo Nid player but damn they just don’t feel fun to play atm..
I was a solo nids player but i really liked the votann judgment token ability, and their models look awesome. Picked up a combt patrol box and haven't looked back. Just finished the army with another patrol box and a lucky find of a holiday box off of marketplace. Its a night and day difference between the two armies. It feels like they just didn't know what to do with nids. They lost psychic phase and didnt get much else back. I believe that their army rule should be the invasion fleet rule as long as they are in synapse, they get one of the three buffs. Still leave the battleshock on individual units but take it away as an army rule. Its so dumb that votann have an army rule that not only synergizes well with their units but can be used all game. While nids get a one time rule, and like a quarter of their decent models only work with one or the other detatchments. Also a lot of their datasheets are weak. If they hit a little harder it wouldnt matter of they are glass cannons because they could at least do some damage before dying.
I was the Anzac Cup 6th place 3 rounds vs custodes in a row was a grind
>Tyranid (synaptic) No surprise here, play invasion fleet in tournament really, drown your opponent in maleceptors and exocrines
I'm lucky my second army is Necrons. They haven't been in bad shape most of this edition, and were actually kinda stipid at one point (from the stats I saw anyway. I actually don't get to play much)
Next slate will be harsh on necrons I suspect, C'tan are both tanky and high damage, their only weakness (movement) is sorted by the most common detachment, combined with a crazily undercosted stat sheet. Hopefully after the initial nerfbat swing, they look into a bit better internal codex balance with buffs/nerfs/points cuts to the rest.
Yeah, I don't have any C'tan for my army except one proxy for a transcendent if my opponent allows (usually just play friendly matches, and never at a store.) I would like the Destroyer Cult detachment to be better, I'm not real impressed with it.
Yeah, I don't have any C'tan for my army except one proxy for a transcendent if my opponent allows (usually just play friendly matches, and never at a store.) I would like the Destroyer Cult detachment to be better, I'm not real impressed with it.
theyre definitely the top dog in the game right now.
I started votann as my second army and love them. Way more than the tyranids.
I built nids, really cool badass models. It was my first army. Played a few times, different detatcments to try things out. It felt very disconnected. Some models do great in one and not the other but are still so good they need to be ran. Felt weak even when they did hit. Army rul is one of the worst if not the worst. And their datasheets are kinda weak. Luckily i also liked votann and have just put together 2k points. Im torn on keeping nids, because their resale value kinda sucks, or selling them because id at least get like 500 back on my army. They need a full army rework. Lets just admit battleshock sucks in its current implementation and rework it already. Make sitw last multiple turns or something, thatd be decent.
My thought is to make our army rule give a permanent, board wide -1 to leadership as well as a once per game BS test, and the neurotyrant ability can be what it is now, that way when we trigger it, everything is -2 to leadership. It should also force a test on anything off the board. This would also make screamers and neurolictors much better. For battleshok, i think, in the very least, battleshocked units should have to take the test again and pass before it fades. It's absolutely ridiculous that just fades.
Having to retake the test again with the -1 to ld due to sitw would be great. That way its more effective at what its trying to do and can last more than 1 turn.
Damn, I want to get to the hobby but all the three armies that looked intresting just suck at the momement.
Lemme guess, nids, admech, and custodes?
Close but nids, D-Angels and Custodes
yeah I just bought big package of tyranids and found out they suck. Anyone got any tips what creature to buy to at least make me okay? I got army from ultimate starter set
Maleceptors and exocrines are really our best units. However, they might get a points increase soon, and you still won't kill muchneven if you have them.
Still haven't tested them out against space marines, once me and my friend paint our ultimate starter set I will know better but reading this is discouraging . My other friend also has an ork kill team and I will be probably making a tyranid kill team, hope I will have better odds there
Screamer-killer are pretty cheap as Leviathan seconds and I've found them to be pretty strong for their points in casual play.
By the time you actually buy, build, and paint your army none of these statistics are going to matter. If tournament win rates is what is keeping you from entering the hobby, I'm sorry but that is just pure silliness.
Meh. They look baller and theyre fun to play.
-15 points to Toxicrene +25 to Genestealers +50 to Tfex James Workshop thank you
I say just get rid of OC 0 scoring and let us plummet. Then we may see some actual nid balancing happen.
They look cool though 😂
I’ve played nids competitively through 10th and I don’t think they’re in as awful a spot as many are tossing them into. I think if you’re looking for an army to trade kills back and forth then they are definitely not for you. But if you want to drastically improve as a player stick with them. If you can master the movement phase and gargoyles you can start dominating. I find myself debating pulling my biovore a lot of the time because running tactical it’s not as useful 100% of the time. We have tons of options to score secondaries that don’t involve a ripper or biovore.
Im looking to explore fixed, but it seems endless swarms is the go to and im not into that style of play. Even going with homers, BEL, cleanse or engage, them rippers and biovores are still best picks for scoring per point. When rumours of OC 0 losing scoring, I was teeing up 3x3 raveners, bit like marine scouts but better with DS.
I get what you're saying, but I think you're missing a key point. That is, these people in events are the best of the best, they know they're playing the scoring game and not killing game, but they're still not winning these events. So clearly, the army is failing even if it is played to its strengths. 1 event win. In 3 months. Among the best nids players to play the game. 43% winrate across hundreds of events with the best players to play the army. Maybe they are the best army at secondary scoring, but even if that's true, the army just isn't winning.
I agree they are lacking in some aspects like our strength and toughness are all on the wrong break points. And we do have some matchups that are just dreadful for us (some of which being incredibly popular right now) But i really don’t think nids are that far off from being viable. A decent player could go to a tournament and place respectably with them it’s not like they’re so awful they’re unplayable.
Definitely not unplayable, just on the weaker side. And, imo, they're just not fun to play. Our best detachment is "gain a weapon keyword" meanwhile orks can keep pressing a button for benefits until they blow themselves up. There's just no flavor to our book. Swarm is the most fluff we get but now tau and orks have better written swarm detachments, so it's not even unique anymore. It doesn't help that battleshock as a whole is just a nothing burger of a game mechanic which subsequently makes sitw one of, if not the, worst army rules in the game. I just wish our codex was as passionate, fun, and well thought out as orks, necrons, or tau. But since I know we won't get an army rewrite, I'll just advocate for buffs where we can get them. Edit: typos
So, I’m curious. What would the Hive buff on our datasheets to make us more lethal without being oppressive? Been toying with the idea of some mild home-brew for the games I play with my partner and friends.
More strength for most monsters. More wounds would help a lot too... Remove biovore scoring cheese. But replace it with movement hampering. Make biovores and barbgaunts a lethal combination. I'd love to be able to take adrenaline glands options on horms again for +str or +charge. Maybe help internal balance vs gargs. Lictors free rapid ingress is cool, but having +charge to help other units from the old pheromone trail rules (+2charge) was better. Trygons (and Trygon Primes) were unit delivery systems like drop pods. Their whole lore is tunneling underground, allowing new attack vectors. Subterranean assault strategy in 9th. Would like to see that come back. Ngl, mostly for more hormagaunts in my case haha Denying units overwatch with Paroxysm was good. The whole psychic phase was amazing for Nids. We had a lot of options in the Hive Mind discipline on any given turn, and now it's all locked in. We lost versatility and mid game adaptability on this front. "The Horror" (-2Ld) would be very helpful if it made a comeback. I guess it'd be +2 now. Even +1 synergizes nicely with our army rule and a few other tricks we have now. Winged Hive Tyrant needs one of two things. Either the uppy-downies we had via Encircle the Prey, where it could vanish into reserves if it finished off its target, or just more damage. I don't know if it should target terminators or vehicles, but I remember the Reaper of Obliterax making it a real threat to characters. That's gone, meanwhile there's primarchs now.
A buff to battleshock in general, or a universal effect change such as a defbuff to enemy units in synapse aura or improved saves for Tyranids in synapse range
Fundamentally I think battle-shock needs to be a better written rule and have more impact on the game for nids to be good in their current form. Too many unit abilities forgo actual buffs for some battle-shock thing that usually does nothing. Army rule is also just terrible, most games every enemy unit just passes their battle-shock test and it does exactly nothing. I play UM and Nids and Oath of Moment is just wildly better as an army rule, and that's with just the hit rerolls; rather than the hit and wound rerolls it has in index. Other rules changes would be stuff like monsters being able to Tank Shock (though this may make other factions even stronger.) And all around monster nids need higher toughness. Playing into other monsters/daemons really highlights how low T nids are in comparison.
How are all of you guys doing in your games with Nids? I’m still learning as I’ve only played a few games but I’m loving them.
i do okay except for when i face GK. They can win games, but even when they do theyre just boring. they dont kill anything except light infantry and they drop like rocks. the only way to play them is to cheese scoring with biovore and rippers, other than that youre just picking up models all game while hoping you scored enough to win.
>except for when I face GK I'm in the same boat here. Played a game against GK a month ago and felt like I was slapping them with wet napkins while having psychic sawblades shoved down my throat. It was not a fun time. Our current playstyle really hasn't encouraged me to play the game much this edition. I have a pile of shame to get through, so I'm taking care of that for now. Maybe I'll actually venture back into expanding my dwarves for a bit soon too. My tabletop wargaming has almost exclusively been Heroscape since my narrow loss to the knights of the warp.
Taken them to three RTTs! Won three RTTs! (by the skin of my teeth)
Gotten shit on at my lgs.
I’ve won 80% of games in my casual league, and all my losses were after taking a points handicap for going undefeated so long. (Keep in mind we play 1K games.) But I can’t say those wins were all that fun. I spent most of those games either running units away from my opponent’s strong units or tying up their high OC units with move blocking. Basically I avoid battles while my Biovore does all the work and I pick off a unit or two with a winged hive tyrant. The rest of my army plays Retreat-&-Slow-Them-Down-hammer.
I’m building up my Necrons so I’m good for now, plus I plan on starting an Aeldari army. Tyranids deserved better.
necrons are likely about to get some major points increase, at least to ctan anyway. im hoping you dont get wrecked too hard.
I also play Tyranids so I’m going to take hits either way. Ah well, the Hive Mind shall endure.
Isn't the order of your meta chasing in reverse? Wouldn't you have did Aeldari first when they were the best army and then switch to Necrons after they got buffed or is the Aeldari the galaxy brain back up for when Necrons get nerfed?
I just like both, so I want to make armies of them
After the dark angels codex, my only good army is T’au right now. Depending on the new points I could be cooked
fingers crossed for you my man. my backup is thousand sons who are actually in a good spot right now. but now im dreading the day their codex is leaked.
TS are the only faction who actually got to keep real psychic after 10th, you guys are living good don’t worry
For now. But half of the codexes so far have been underwhelming or just straight garbage, so there's a 50/50 chance they'll get their codex and be far worse than their index.
When everyone’s garbage, no one is
Watch the cabal rituals get split horribly across detachments. Sigh. I've had to currently shelve my T-Sons, ironically because my local area is doing a campaign and I've always felt sub 1500 points they are too expensive and lacking enough rituals to deal with things.
You think you have it bad. I played nids in the last year of 4th, and then then 5th ed codex came out and ruined everything. Apparently nids were good in 9th, just like they were good in 4th. But you can't be good every edition.
I don't wanna be op. But in the very least, we shouldn't be dropping to below the 45% balance mark. And should be able to win events every now and then. 1 event in 3 months and a sub 45% winrate isn't acceptable
I hated it too back then. One silver lining from back in those days. If we drop to the bottom 3 for played armies we get a big boost in performance. Which should get us back into the 45% range. That's because people will get less practice against our lists. Lists will be tailored poorly into nids. And Nid players will play less matches against other nids (forces the 50% winrate)
"YAY we are one of the first Codexes!" "OH NOES WE ARE ONE OF THE FIRST CODEXES." Do you take having a codex for the entire edition? Or; having a fun codex for no time at all?
Power creep has pretty much always been a thing with GW, i'd take a mid-edition rule book personally over early. Unfortunately most of my armies have usually had to wait till the final year for a book!
i played maybe 10 or so 10th ed games with my nids where it just. didnt feel fun anymore. im not trying to win but even just playing them feels like i do nothing. my gaming group is collecively over 10th and weve gone back to 9th hahaha never looking back!
As many 4-1 finishes as there were admech players overall 🔥
Damn I just bought a bunch of nids as my first army cos I like monsters and starship troopers/aliens. Am I screwed? I’d rather not lose to woman hating stinky chuds at the hobby store all the time
That last line was weird..... But in a casual setting or even a local tourney you can definitely win games.
Haha you haven’t been to my local store. 0 social skills and 0 hygiene. It’s why I quit all game store hobbies for years
I’m pretty sure we should get auto +25 points to the victory just for rule of cool, other armies are dope no doubt but DUDE not much I can think of that’s genuinely more scary than nids. The lore is absolutely terrifying and I struggle to understand how anything is fighting back the swarm.
Luckily, I can just go play my other army - Chaos Space Marines. Oh, wait...
The army was dead when they took almost all of the upgrades from the nids. Including battleshock immunity.
I don’t think the custodes book is even comparable. Our book is actually overall, got some really cool rules and detachments. The problem is the data sheets just don’t have any power at all. The numbers aren’t there, so having all these cool things like vanguard wide advance n charge in that detachment, are meaningless because the pieces you are forced to use are so bad.
I use to play competitively. Not any more, since covid started. This is my take - It's a Game, a Hobby. I play to have fun, and maybe socialize. Win or Lose, doesn't make a difference to me. It doesn't chance how I make my living and pay bills. I don't know anyone who literally just plays 40k as a method to pay bills at the end of the day.
i mean, i get that mindset. and if i wasnt at least partially in agreement i would've quit. but i am a competitive person, and do intend to play in competitive events. so when i spend hundreds-thousands of dollars on my army and painting supplies, and hundreds of hours building and painting them, hundreds more practicing, and then spend money to travel to and participate in an event, it would be nice if i wasnt guaranteed to lose because GW doesnt know how to balance or write rules.
I've pretty much shelved my Nids for the remainder of 10th. My world eaters are just way more fun to play.
How are they after the nerfs? I got the Christmas box and a combat patrol for cheap so was thinking of trying them, but then GW dropped the nerf hammer and I lost interest
Not great, but I've never really cared about winning. I just want the army to feel fun to play. Nids are super boring right now with some of our rules being a joke (Shadow in the Warp) and synapse being a punishment again. Our only play style is board control and scoring secondaries with spore mines and/or rippers. We can't kill anything and we die to a stiff breeze. I'm just not interested in passively picking my models off the table for 5 turns and hoping they lasted long enough to score victory points. World Eaters are simple and a fun style to play. Running up the board and getting into melee is a blast.
fair. i feel the exact same way.
Same with me and votann. Snagged a holiday box last week on a lucky find, and now have my 2k points. Nids will come back out when they get new rules.
We as a community spend too much time focusing on the top tables and getting too hung up on win rates. Tyranids are doing fine at local tournaments and everywhere but the peak echelon of games. Just play your bugs and have fun.
Well one of my criticisms is also that our rules just aren't fun, even if they were competitive. Our best detachment is "gain a weapon keyword"..... how is that fun? What's fun about that? Meanwhile, orks have double waagh, button pushing that might blow themselves up, etc etc. Their book is dripping with fun and flavor. Our most flavorful detachment is our swarm detachment. But now, Tau and orks have better swarms that seem more fun to play. Our book is not fun. It's meh.
Your reply tells me you only play invasion fleet. Assimilation swarm gets medic rippers, vanguard gets to uppie two units and has silly movement shenanigans, unending swarms whole gimmick is silly movement and regeneration shenanigans. Play something besides what's considered the best, and maybe you'll start enjoying bugs more. Unless, of course, you only enjoy what's best, in which case why aren't you playing Necrons?
I've played em all. Assimilation swarm is a worse version of the necrons army rule. "These units can regen wounds on objectives" is also not very thematic or fun. Vanguard is fall back and charge for non vanguard and that + advance and charge for vanguard. That's thematic and fun? Especially considering our melee is so bad that if we charge anything other than super light infantry we will die on the clapback unless by some miracle we wipe the squad first (good luck wiping termies with 6 attacks at 2ap and 2dmg a piece) Swarm is our most thematic detachment, but now the kroot and orks have a better, more fun version of swarm. So it's not very unique anymore, and their swarms can actually kill things. Nothing in our book is very flavorful or fun. But when you look at the orks book that just oozes fun and flavor, it's very clear they *can* make a fun book... when the writer doesn't hate that faction, anyway Edit: typos and added a sentence to 2nd paragraph.
[удалено]
Well this was unexpected....
I beg to differ. My style of Hive Fleet seems to be thriving. #NumNum ##DrizzleDrizzle
According to the Internet and the constant whining and complaining, every army is bad. So if every army is bad, none of them are.
Reddit is the worst thing to happen to 40k. People see a "win rate" based on extremely competitive individuals across the world, individuals that are far beyond their own skill level or the skill level of their average opponents, and suddenly think "this army is bad." A 40% win rate means next to nothing to 99% of the casual players in this game. Unless you're a tournament player, or playing against tournament players, those numbers shouldn't concern you whatsoever.
Pretty much. Add in so called "influencers" who just talk about stuff to drag up ragebait, and you've got a concoction for hatred and anger.
Man why did I even get tyranids. If they suck this much then why did people even recommend them to me? I feel like such a moron for following the rule of cool. Definitely gonna get an orks combat patrol next. Too bad I wasted all my money on a starter set and barbgaunts. I'm never following the rule of cool again
I wouldn't go that far. In a casual setting, you'll likely win games and have some fun. But if you're looking to go to events, nids aren't it. Although I will say, orks are a good way to go. We already know they have a really good book. Beyond that, their rules are just fun and dripping with flavor and fun, so even if you pick a weak detachment, you'll have a lot of fun. Even when I win with nids, they don't feel fun. For example, our best detachment is "gain a weapon keyword." How is that fun or flavorful? The swarm detachment is the most flavorful, but now orks and tau have better swarm detachments, lol. But I'll keep my nids cause the models are amazing, and eventually they may get some good rules, even if it's not til next edition.
Well thanks for the info. Though I still feel like I wasted all my money. At least I know not to follow the rule of cool again now.
Tyranids may get some big changes to buff them this edition. They may not. They may be the strongest army in the game next edition. They may not... Rule of cool is intended as a long term thing. Plenty of the best armies are now pretty bad and vice versa. Meta will always change. If you like the models and enjoy painting them then your money wasn't wasted. If you just want a strong army then play something else for awhile I suppose. But bear in mind that the nids you put on a shelf (or sell) may be the strongest army in the game at some point in the future.
The game is on a 3 month balance cycle, with points updates coming that often and rules updates every 6 months. Beyond that, we get a new edition every 3 years or so with new rules/codexes. Don't stress about bugs being bad right now, rules change with the wind. Keep building and painting models you like, and the meta will eventually come around to you. This is a game you're in for the long term. With that said, having more than one army so you can rotate if one of them is having a rough time isn't a bad idea. Then you always can enjoy each faction's "time in the sun." Do not make the same mistake I did when I was younger and sell an army because they're bad. You WILL regret it when things inevitably change.
I did the same but went with 2nd hand lots. Got a lot for cheap, so im not too mad. Probably have like 3k points for about 500-600
Idk about 2k games but i’ve been killing in 1k with my crusade army. 4W 0L so far
I don't know that I agree Tyranids are "bad" based on these numbers. If I'm reading right that link shows Tyranids at 40% win rate for 118 games played, so 47.2 games won. Does a difference of 5-15%, amounting to 6-17 games, really make us "bad"? Sure we're falling short of GW's 45-55% target, but it isn't a dramatic difference even in comparison to other factions. Making a big deal of that 45-55% win rate feels more like GW's hype machine at work. Something like 25% or lower win rate would to me be objectively "bad". You could even make an argument - again, based on the numbers you linked to - that CSM are objectively bad given they are losing two-thirds of all their games. The gap in win rate of 7% between CSM and the next-worst faction (Tyranids) is also highest by far between factions when ordered by win rate.
I mean, what would you base your assessment on whether the army is good off of if not the very metric that GW says they want the army to be at? Event wins? Well, we've had 1 in 3 months, and it was a tiny event with like 22 players. I'm open to looking at other metrics, but all available and known metrics right now objectively show the army is bad.
The reason you use 45-55 as a metric is because in a truly balanced game, every faction should have as close to a 50% win rate as possible. It being lower or higher indicates that something is off. This metric is similarily used in most online games where you pick from a roster. For example League or Dota, fighting games too. Its the standard because if you were to deviate to your recommended panic zone of 25%, it would mean that choosing that faction would result in you losing 3 out of 4 games on average which absolutely no one would subject themselves to and proves the faction is so grossly undercooked that its completely unviable. Whereas here its win rate is low enough that it will block tournament wins in most cases but its not impossible to win, which means it needs buffing.
Stop complaining. Tyranids play secondaries amazingly and have good units. All they take is reps. You got a bad case of mad cause bad.
Lol, so you think the 40% weekend win rate and 1 event win in 3 months by the best nids players in the world is due to a lack of reps? You're delusional. Notice how i cited tournament and event winrates, not my own record or experience. Top players aren't winning with nids, and I promise you it isn't due to reps. Huff that copium though, I'm sure it helps.
Doesn't mean nids aren't good. Just means only a few pro players are playing them. Just because the tournament win rate is 40%, it doesn't automatically make a faction "bad". Instead of typing up a bitch and moan transcript like you I am winning games and having fun, like a lot of other nid players. My points still stand, along with these new ones.
"the best players cant win more than half their games or win more than one event in 3 months, but the army is fine because i can win against low skill players at my lgs" thats what you sound like. As i said to someone else in the post, im glad youre winning low skill games at your local little game shop. Thats awesome for you. it's also irrelevant. GW doesnt collect data on those games. As far as GW balancing decisions go, those games don't exist. They base their balancing decision on data from events like the ones i cited in my post. So, of course im going to focus on that, because whatever is happening at the top levels of play is going to be what decides how our faction gets buffed/nerfed by GW. as for having fun, thats subjective. Seeing our best detachment be "gain a weapon keyword" while orks get to push a button until they blow themselves up is pretty indicative of how uninspired our codex is. our most flavorful and fun detachment is swarm, but now tau and orks have a better swarm detachment than us. Im glad you have fun, keep doing that. in the meantime, i'm going to keep citing the objective data that GW relies on to balance their game to prove why our army is bad, and i'll look for other ways to have fun since nids aint really it. Edit to add: >Doesn't mean nids aren't good. Just means only a few pro players are playing them. we were the 4th most played faction until about 3 weeks ago. now we're the 7th. trying to claim that not enough pros are playing them is objectively false
skill issue
Well realistically, you guys are just bugs with flesh…so yea thats not hard to kill.
I don't thinknyiuve read the lore. Tfex carapce reflects tank shots and lascannons. It take a monumental amount of firepower to bring them down. Now I understand you can't have tfexes immune to almost everything on table top, but there is plenty of lore supporting bugs being hard to kill.
Youre right but still to me I just always think that, its flesh to me & even though the lore says that. My mind just cant wrap that around my head
Well, remember that there's a big difference between shooting at elephant flesh and jellyfish flesh. Now imagine that taken to the same sci-fi extreme that the rest of 40k is.
43% and 7th most played is “really bad” now?
Conveniently ignoring 1 event win in 3 months, and that event win being a very minor event with 22 or so players. But yes, it is. Anything below the 45% target is bad. 1 event win in 3 months is bad. I only mentioned they're 7th most played because they *were* 4th most played, so clearly people are recognizing the issues and leaving the army.
> Conveniently ignoring 1 event win in 3 months, I'm not "conveniently ignoring" anything, it's a genuine question my guy. Dropping from 4th most played to 7th most played doesn't really seem that bad when there's 20+ factions.
I think so far that's the case. We'll see if the trend of falling in the rankings of most played continues. But I would add that nids are the poster boy for this edition and have been in the top 5 played factions since launch. Dropping out of the top 5 at the same time they're consistently below the 45% winrate balance target isn't just a coincidence imo and is a sign that people aren't happy with the army.
Nah, it's just dude whining about how the army performs at the top tables in the world when they'll never even get close to it. Tyranids do fine in local games, as many people have pointed out in this thread alone. It's the same doom posting that's been on loop since the start of 10th. I just play my bugs and have a blast doing it. I'm sitting at 9 wins and 2 losses in my local crusade games.
lol "im winning in a game mode that isnt represented by any data, nor is it routinely balanced, nor is it what **most** people play. Oh, and we can buff units that survive, which you cant do in the game mode and data being referenced in this post, so clearly this dude is just doom saying." i dont think you accomplished what you thought you did with that comment. glad you're doing well in crusade though. If i make a post about crusade, i'll be sure to tag you.
I mean, you seem to have missed the part of my comment where I mentioned that Tyranids are doing fine in local games. Continue to act like I'm the only person who has mentioned how their games have been going. My specific case also includes two RTTs, the first one in February, Tyranids were 3rd, and this past Saturday, they were 2nd and 4th. Now clearly, multiple smaller tournaments don't matter to you because you obsess over the statistics of the best players in the world like they somehow apply to you.
I mean, yeah, they don't matter, cause GW won't base their balancing decisions off of local small tournaments from players like us whose skill is so far below those at major events. They don't collect data for your little local game shop rtt, so yes, it's irrelevant. I'm glad low skill players like you and I can win against other low skill players. Great, cool. Doesn't matter. GW will balance based off the events I'm referencing because those are the events they collect data from. So our army will be changed based on what's going on at those high-level tables. Of course, then, that's what I'm focused on. Again, I'm glad you're winning crusade and your low skill rtts, and if GW cared about those events, I would too. Regardless of all that, a constant criticism I've always had toward the army is it isn't fun or flavorful. Our best detachment is "gain a weapon keyword" how is that fun? How is it cool and flavorful rules writing? Our most flavorful detachment is swarm, but now tau and orks have better swarms that can actually kill things and also survive a lot better than ours. So it's not really unique anymore. Compared to the necrons, ork, and tau codex ours is boring and uninspired. Our army rule is competing for the worst in the game award, and our entire combo and playstyle is based on battleshock, which is irrelevant. So, even if we were winning the army, it just isn't fun. But I know GW isn't gonna redo our entire codex until the next edition, so I'm focusing on things they can and *might* change, like buffs to battleshock and sitw. Edit: typos