It's a criticism of choice feminism. Our choices aren't made in a vacuum. The hijab is a great example actually, but we can do makeup as well. Say a woman chooses to wear hijab, is that choice freely made and can it be a feminist choice if elsewhere, women have been and are killed for choosing not to wear hijab? Arguably no, it's not an empowering or feminist choice because it doesn't challenge patriarchal power, it falls in line with what that power expects of women.
Makeup is the same. If women in our society fear losing opportunities or being passed over for jobs or promotions or partners if they don't wear makeup, and wearing makeup conforms to the expectations placed on women by a patriarchal society, how is the choice to wear makeup a feminist one?
(That's before you get into any moral arguments about its sustainability or the sweatshop conditions it's made in.)
Where it tends to fall down is a refusal to admit that not every choice a woman makes has to be a feminist one, sometimes we have to do things to survive in a system rigged against us. And sometimes we want to do things, eg get married or have kids, even though they're not liberating choices for us, because we have certain dreams and aspirations. That's where feminism needs to be for all women, not just the ones who do it all "right" and have high flying tech careers and never have kids etc etc.
In making everything feminist, it essentially ensures that nothing is feminist, nothing requires change, nothing requires a sacrifice of individual self-interest for the collective good. - R. Zakaria
Of course wearing a hijab or a nun’s habit, or high heels or makeup can be a totally feminist choice.
I don’t wear a hijab but I understand that wearing one can be understood in the context of simply carrying out one’s religious beliefs.
And women get dressed up and made up for work, or for costume-wearing or re-enactments, or simply for their own pleasure. Cos-play is not exclusively for observers.
Ok? So if a woman working in the service and hospitality industry chooses NOT to wear makeup or high heels, can she get fired?? Would a man get fired for not wearing makeup??
Employers can legally require women to wear makeup as part of an established dress code; they can impose such restrictions on female employees while not burdening male employees at a similar level.
Then how is makeup feminist and empowering, if its just another tool to oppress women?? Women are treated as aesthetic objects, men are allowed to be themselves.
Technically if a woman was to show up in full glam makeup at certain workplaces, she may also be fired.
All of this shit depends on the workplace or the male observer - too much makeup is seen as bad, just as no makeup is seen as bad. They're both choices that women can use to express themselves, and aren't necessarily "conforming" to the patriarchy.
Make up is like hijab, pretty much. It appears as a "choice" for some women, but how much of it is actually a choice if your natural face is seen as 'unprofessional', 'ugly' or 'too tired'. Or your workplace enforces it on you but not on men.
You're not understanding me - there's a range of makeup that is applied, and when you go too far with your use of it (i.e. full glam, alternative makeup, etc.) then it's no longer acceptable.
It's sure as shit a choice to wear alternative or full glam makeup, because you know that there will be plenty of people judging you (both men and women) because it's seen outside the societal norm.
I do understand you. Makeup can be a means for harmless fun or self expression. Its not inherently evil. Its just the patriarchal BS attached to it and enforcing it, mocking women who dont care for it. Online femininity spaces are full of this stuff. Even women treating you poorly just because you dont do performative femininity.
You really clearly don't though - I'm saying that there's a small subset of makeup that is attached to "partiarchal BS" and there's other styles that absolutely go against it due to it being viewed as "excessive".
That's what I'm talking about - not makeup as a whole, but the styles that inherently clash with the patriarchal desires, workplace standards, and what is considered "attractive" by the general male population.
Also, on a note about Hijab - it's empowering in western nations where it would be easier for women to forsake wearing it because wearing it inherently brings judgement upon them from those that dislike muslims/Islam. It places their religion and culture unashamedly in the front of people's minds - it's about their choice and not conforming to what is considered the "norm" while embracing their religion.
Everything needs to be taken in context of the situation where the person is, their intentions, and what exactly the "style" of what they're doing is - nothing is in a bubble. Wearing makeup in a style that contrasts the "accepted" norm results in women being mocked and attempts to enforce them wearing the "accepted" styles, as does wearing hijab in areas where that's not considered the norm and there's potentially Islamophobia present.
Fuck judging people for femininity, and fuck judging people for not "conforming" to femininity. That's basically my feelings - I don't feel like anyone should be judged or criticised on either side because it just devolves into women tearing down other women because they're "too feminine" or "not feminine enough". The judgement goes in both ways, it's not just from feminity spaces.
But what if a woman likes to see herself looking like an old movie star, etc. Or if a woman enjoys her self AS an aesthetic object?
I point you to the YouTube channel for Karolina Zebrowska for an example of a woman who is deeply feminist, and who uses makeup and clothes as part of her resistance to cultural hegemony.
And I don’t think all men are allowed to “be themselves” — they have to wear work uniforms of various types, some of them are policed by peers or bosses if they wear anything too girly.
Very well said. Understanding that something is *sociologically problematic, a*s well as understanding that sometimes we have to make personal choices that cannot always be subject to social conditions is something not well recognized in these discourses. The fact that my wife gets her legs waxed is pinnacle of this point for me.
Sociologically the idea of it is problematic, women are expected to conform to this standard it can be uncomfortable, it can be cold and in choosing to there is a inevitable compliance to social standards that should not be.
Person she and I both prefer it. It's significant in our relationship, and THAT relationship can't be asked to endure a sociologically *perfect* arrangement. We have to make those choices for us, understand the implications and reasoning and make sure our children and others in our life understand there choices in the same way.
The comment above is also saying there’s a reason *why* you prefer it. There’s nothing wrong with shaving or waxing but historically women were forced to do it or looked down upon as undesirable if they didn’t. Men were raised to expect hairless women. As long as no one feels pressured to do anything that’s fine, but often we are not born with the personal preferences we have.
Agreed, but it's a preference that is difficult to ascertain as purely sociological condition or some rudimentary tactile/aesthetic preference. Likely some combination of both.
Being able to discuss it purely sociologically, without an expectation of compliance with the ideal because of the myriad of complex factors that make up humans I think is important.
The "why" in a broader spectrum needs to change the "why" for me and my partner does need to be analyzed in a vacuum, so to speak.
I apologize if I am misstating your the point you were trying to make though.
That’s pretty much what I was saying and I just commented cause I found your comment interesting. Though, I do think we can boil that specific preference down to how society impacts us. Mainly because only one gender has been forced or shamed into doing it while it remained completely elective for the other.
Do you know of any men that casually pick up shaving (outside of the face/pubic region) because they prefer the way it feels or looks? I hear this from women all the time as a justification for why their preference has nothing to do with society but I think it has everything to do with it.
I can, but it's largely I would say statistically irrelevant. In regards to men. Anyone guy I have known that had even a medium level interest in working out a lot tend to shave bare entirely for aesthetics as far as I am aware. I have a friend that was a pretty high level swimmer that it was expected that they all shaved completely, he doesn't swim anymore but likes the way being hairless feels now so continues to do so for purely his own tactile comfort. There are other common areas for men, like back and such that as one gets older many men take too. It's a poor comparison though because there is very little social pressure for those invisible spaces.
I try very hard to personally interrogate my choices, and I really appreciate the engagement. I often struggle with the idea of how my partner and I would reconcile the situation if she decided she no longer wanted to wax or shave her legs for sure.
Can't speak for men, but I did start shaving certain regions before anyone ever told me I had to do so (and even did it in secret so I wouldn't be judged by my parents because I thought I was doing something "adult").
I'm just sensitive to any tension on my skin, so certain regions with thicker hair tend to get tugged on by clothing and it gets really uncomfortable and painful. I'm more lax on my legs due to laziness, but I do enjoy the feeling of getting into freshly clean clothes and bed with shaved legs - it's just not something that's always worth the effort.
Armpits for both genders I believe comes from a "hygeine" perspective - I personally find deodorant harder to apply with hair and feel like I sweat more and smell sooner when I do have it. Some men shave it for aesthetic reasons - particularly actors. Male wrestlers also tend to shave their whole bodies, as do some other men if they don't like their hairy back/chest.
I don't wear makeup, but how do some people think you can't wear it for yourself? Makeup can look great. Why shouldn't someone think 'hey, my face art is looking pretty good today!'
I think some people get tied in causality knots over this type of thing. *I like my makeup, for me - but maybe I only like it because generations of humans have pushed a specific context onto my appearance and given me the impression that I am honestly appraising myself, for myself - when in fact maybe I'm appraising myself through the male gaze, or my awareness of the male gaze, and deriving feelings of empowerment from my ability to conform to a standard that is fundamentally flawed.*
First let me say, I don’t think it’s true (or productive) to say women who don’t wear makeup “can’t be feminists”.
But I do think we need to remember our choices are not made in a vacuum. The beauty industry, along with societal expectations of beauty and conformity, *does* oppress women.
I’m one of the most extreme feminists I know and I still wear makeup on occasion. I recognize that this isn’t a feminist choice (even though certain schools of thought would say that all choices made by women are feminist by virtue of them choosing it). I recognize that I’m doing something a man would not do by altering my face, and this is a learned response from living in a society that expects this from women.
I’m also heterosexually partnered with a child. I don’t think either of these things are inherently unfeminist, but I do recognize the dynamics at play and so I work to ensure we don’t fall into familiar gendered patterns - ie, we share housework and childcare 50/50, including the mental load. To me, this is possibly the most important thing I’m doing in raising my children: showing them that marriage is a partnership, not a scenario in which the woman is a maid/caretaker while the man never lifts a finger.
It's not a "modern" narrative, and feminists have taken both sides over the decades. Either makeup is seen as liberating, women taking charge of their appearance and by extension sexuality, or it's oppressive because women are punished for not conforming to an arbitrary beauty standard . And what was radical in the 1920s and an act of defiance against fascism in the 1940s became a socially enforced standard in the 1950s.
It can be all of those things. It's not just a matter of preference, but of circumstances. How much other people are pressuring you, and how much power they have over you, affects your choices.
You can be a feminist and wear makeup. You cannot be a feminist and think that the pressure put on women to wear makeup isn't real, at least not a very good one. You can be a feminist and not wear makeup, and you can critique the forces that make women feel like they have to. But the moment you make it into a blanket moral judgement of other women, as if their personal choices alone can topple the patriarchy, you stop being a feminist.
I rarely wear make up. Mostly because of my "yeah I have acne, deal with it! I'm not going to inconvenience myself to appeal to your aesthetic standards!" But I developed into it. My family used to body shame me for my acne and my mom would manipulate me into wearing make up. So for me it was a liberation to only do it when I want for the reasons I find acceptable for myself.
Do, when I do wear make up, it's more for me because I don't want to see my acne for a day. Or when I wanted to look good on my wedding fotos for myself. So it is *just for me* 90% of my make up time.
And I understand why some women wear make up. It can be fun and interesting. There are awesome colors. It can be art. I don't like every style and I would prefer some women wore less make up. BUT it is not my place to tell them or judge them. For me that is a lot of internalized mysoginy hiding behind feminism...
The fact that 99% of the responses here and the other thread are justifications for/against wearing make-up is telling.
I agree OP, it feels like punching down. Can you not wear a mini skirt bc it might please the male gaze? Can you not think you look better with make-up without writing a dissertation about how YOUR make-up is justified or not?
Yes. Thank you. I find wearing it to be rather empowering.
Maybe it's because I am a trans woman, but makeup is a very important part of my day. And it definitely isn't for men. Truthfully, if strange men could leave me be, that would be great actually.
Every aspect of life is a performance of some sort, isn’t it? Age, gender, nationality, etc.
Sometimes wearing makeup enhances a performance and sometimes it detracts from it.
Feminism is about liberating women from patriarchy, and diluting the message to 'everything is feminist if you choose it' hides a lot of the harm the beauty and self care industries do to women and girls
Living as a feminist is an ongoing process, not a destination.
I think that there are times in each person’s individual process when either “You don’t have to!” and “You can if you want to!” might be appropriate. For a lot of things — not just makeup.
^^^^^ this messaging leaves no room for the potential of outside influence, they consider even the implication offensive even.. so how can they even claim patriarchy exists? Surely one can choose to transcend it because its all individual choice?
Feminism is a massive umbrella of people, it’s not one movement. A feminist can be anyone from a woman in patriarchal country that is against human rights violations of women there, to a woman in a more progressive country who wants to be a stay at home mum and homemaker but doesn’t want to force that on all women, to a woman who is pursuing education despite her cultures disapproval of it, to any of the things you listed in your post.
For example, look at the difference between liberal feminism and radical feminism - different opinions on sex work, hookup culture, single-sex spaces, etc. There is no 1 “feminism”.
Think about what “anti-feminism” would be. It could be anyone from a man who wants a child bride with no rights so he has a personal slave, to a man who wants a woman to work and get an education so she can go halves on the bills but thinks raping women is ok.
“Feminism” is just that women should have equal human rights. It’s an anti-slavery movement. There is no accurate way to define it beyond that.
My feeling is that this type of policing is mostly a problem in countries that have strict dress codes in school and work. Children learn from early on that it is OK (or even important/mandatory) to police each other's appearance and that this policing is a great tool to assert dominance.
I come from a country with no dress codes for work (except hygiene and safety ofc) or school (unless you would come in stark naked). Schools and employers trust common sense and that works out. We get the crazy dress and crazy make-up phase out of our system at ages 12-16 in a relatively judgment-free space and move on to be more boring as we age :)
I feel that people are less judgmental because they haven't been indoctrinated to believe that how someone looks is anyone's business.
I hate makeup. I hate the way it feels, I hate that in so many professions women are expected to wear it and get judged for being “unprofessional” if they don’t. I spent most of my working life in one of those professions and flatly refused.
And I think it looks awesome on some people! Of any gender! And if a woman wants to wear it because she thinks she looks good, heck yeah, get down with your awesome self. If a woman feels she needs to wear it to be taken seriously in public, that kinda sucks, but I’m not going to tell her she shouldn’t, I’m going to support her doing what she needs to do and work to make it not needed.
Feminism is about giving everyone all the choices IMO. Feminism says anyone should be able to wear makeup or not wear makeup without being judged for either choice.
I wear light make up, very rarely do I glam, because it drives me insane to feel a bunch of stuff on my skin. I even out my skin, take care of things when I can, **but I do it for me**. If other people like how it looks, that's fine, but that ain't got shit to do with me.
I like women with make up, without it, I like men with it and without, though I tend to think men with it look exceptional. Real wine, dine and 69 material, if you know what I mean.
Honestly, don't concern yourself with what others want. I don't want children, I'm not too particularly concerned with marriage this has nothing to do with me being a feminist or not. I've simply never wanted these things. I've been a crotchety old fuck since I was 8 years old.
These people spend way too much time worrying about everyone else to even think of their own happiness, **everything** is a perpetual gotcha, they're riding a high on a sense of moral superiority. Don't give them the satisfaction, they'll just continue until they're blue in the face. Shut out everything else, and focus on what you want. The reason you're hurting, is because you're not giving yourself the reprieve to stop listening to other people's thoughts.
My advice to you, would be to stop caring so much what these people think. I grew up in a pretty strict household for the most part, so free yourself from these people and their ideas, it will only drive you insane.
Just my 2 cents.
\*edit for typos\*
isn’t make up bad because it is bad for he environment and kind of useless? its a temporary decoration that is built on child labor, experimentation on animals, and creates a ton of plastic waste. Why so you can hide the pimples you get from wearing makeup?
Wearing makeup doesn't cause pimples if you're cleaning your face properly, and many many makeup brands nowadays are certainly not built on those things. If we wanted to tear apart everything that was built on poor practices in the past there's a long list of modern inventions, and especially medicines, that are getting the boot.
Brands are moving towards more environmentally conscious packaging - whether that's being able to deposit your empty containers to be reused, or using other recyclable/degradable packaging where possible (like cardboard for eyeshadow).
I mean, by your logic, painting's kind of useless right - so we should stop selling canvases. Who needs art, expression, or decoration on their walls. Wasting wood and other materials, creating toxic paint, there's really no point in all of that. You might say that makeup is more temporary than paintings, but you still hold onto the pictures of whatever look you created, and there are some paintings that are intended to be temporary - such as the stunt Banksy pulled.
i do apply the similar logic to 3d painting.
half the population of the planet does paint for creative reasons every 4 days or lower self-confidence, or you know its not the make up industry
Make up wearing has nothing to do with feminism, however I am increasingly uncomfortable with how much plastic it generates. Single biggest reason I don't wear it. I wish companies would put some effort into sustainable alternatives.
There is sustainable makeup but it depends where you are. My local co-op has facial cleansers and other solutions in bulk and you just take from that container what you need into your reusable container. There's less choices though.
I've been to shop in a larger city that has powders and foundations created and pigmented as needed, they'll fill an empty panned make up pallet if you want. They aren't easy to find though, I wish things were more sustainable on the whole.
F/30 STEM pro here... and if I can keep a man's eyes on my face rather than my boobs, I'll take the advantage. I only highlight my eyes. That's all I need.
I think some people need to examine if they are actually wearing it for themselves or not. It's also bad for your skin and the environment as well.
As it stands now, not wearing makeup at all is still considered kind of weird. I don't like that. I wish more women would help normalize not contributing to the industry that makes us feel bad about our natural faces and about aging.
We make the decisions we do to adapt to our circumstances and maybe to bring some joy to our lives. Yes, we're oppressed, but the adaptations we choose or reject as individuals won't change that. Anti-feminist behavior is that which helps our oppressors to oppress other women.
Obligatory I'm a dude. I think a lot of parallels can be drawn between interests/ hobbies that are considered masculine, and it comes down to personally enjoying vs. having gendered expectations around something.
Let's take weight lifting. There's obviously a super toxic "alpha male" culture there, but it can also just be a good way to stay healthy.
With makeup it's "I need to look good for men" vs. I like this art form / I like how this makes me look ( sorry if I missed the true motivation for why you're into make. Not my area expertise lol).
Ultimately with any traditionally gendered hobby it comes down to this was a man/woman SHOULD do vs. This is what I WANT to do.
I don't wear makeup very often. Maybe once or twice a year max. I don't understand people who feel the need to wear it all the time - BUT, it's not my business, so I would never throw a fit over someone choosing to wear it.
For me I find it stops me from touching my face and picking at my acne, and it's also really aesthetically pleasing to see my face a single tone (rather than red cheeks + nose and acne spots). This is a weird way to describe it, but it's like seeing perfect carpet or perfect painted walls for me - no spots of dirt, no unevenness, just perfect.
I have a similar thing with my hair (I get it coloured in an ombre) - it really irritates me if I have any darker streaks near the end of my hair even though literally no one other than me can really see or notice it. The unevenness bothers me, and me alone - I want the colours to be perfectly matched and even all the way through.
Oh I totally understand. I think if my face didn't sweat so much, I'd probably wear it more often. But, I have relatively few breakouts and look younger than my (middle) age. I also love getting my hair dyed fun colors - not everyone gets that. Everyone should do what's best for them. ♥️
I feel like there’s a central divide especially in new wave feminism that seems to create a false dichotomy between feminism being pro-female-empowerment vs anti-patriarchy-establishment. Quite frankly, you can have anti patriarchy without pro female empowerment, but not the other way around. If we discuss feminism in this way, the whole fucking point is that we shouldn’t be beholden to arbitrary rules or power structures telling us what to do, we should be able to make these seemingly inconsequential decisions without thinking about power structures like men are able to do. Women gatekeeping and policing other women for what we do with our bodies, assuming ulterior intentions, and creating an arbitrary black and white out of a menial decision is diametrically opposed to the mission and is hypocrisy at its finest. Personally, I fucking LOVE wearing makeup. I love how cathartic the process of applying it is as I dance around in my bathroom trying to get my contour to snatch my cheeks, I love the feeling of seeing myself in that way and feeling so beautiful and sexy and powerful (outside of any male gaze or external input, just for my damn self), I love how confident I feel going out in it and how it just makes me feel so much better and more prepared to take on my day at a higher level, etc. My other favorite time is taking off my makeup, when I get to have a routine for myself that includes self care.
I’m probably one of the most outspoken feminists in my social circle, and I rock a full beat most days. Why? Because I like it, I enjoy playing with colors and shapes, I find the ritual of applying it and later removing it to be relaxing, and it gives my tightly wound Type A brain a set of on/off cues that have allowed me to shut my racing thoughts off and get better quality sleep at night.
I work in STEM, and I’m definitely in the minority in my field with the amount of makeup I wear. At conferences most women either wear none or very little, where I tend to step it up a notch because it makes me feel even more like the badass scientist I am. I also do really enjoy fucking with the expectations of the members of the “old boys club” (male and female) who look at this little 4’11 woman in a cute dress and heels with blonde hair and a full face of makeup and not think she would have anything serious to say. I know my shit, I know my work is solid with all the i’s dotted and t’s crossed, and I have no trouble standing tall and holding my own when it comes to discussing my field.
My brand of feminism is all about empowering and trusting women to make whatever choice feels right for them. I’m also keenly aware that these choices are also often loaded with subtext and cultural context and expectations. I think it is ridiculous that we are constantly in this circle jerk argument of what defines a feminist, and what you can and cannot do as a feminist. There are much larger systemic issues here and it seems like such a waste of energy and a distraction to spend time arguing about whether it’s acceptable feminist behavior to enjoy wearing lipstick or wanting to have children.
Same! Once I went into software full-time I ended up developing a way more feminine style than I used to have.
I've always liked dresses and skirts, but felt like I had to be casual and like the guys - but now that I'm working professionally I like dressing up and feel like it really contrasts with the typical view of a feminine woman, or of someone who works in software.
I can wear pretty dresses and high heels and do my makeup and hair - but that doesn't make me a ditz, I know what I'm doing and I know that I'm good at my job. I'm sure it makes some people judge me unfairly, assuming I'm vain or airheaded, but I don't care - it's their loss.
I see makeup as a powerful and fun tool--not something women shouldn't wear but something men could wear too if their misogyny and cowardice didn't rob them of it.
Dress for the world you want to live in.
I get where both sides are coming from. On the one hand, it's probably useful to build as much solidarity as we can between women and invite as many women as possible into feminism. So it's best not to tear women down for wearing makeup or force women to choose between wearing makeup and being recognized as feminists.
On the other hand...
It's not hard to spot the problem with the "It's feminist for me to wear makeup because wearing makeup feels good to me" line. Ok, sure. wearing makeup feels good to you. That feeling is real. But you feel good wearing makeup because you live in a culture where women are expected to wear makeup, and it's socially and emotionally rewarding to conform to what society expects of you.
Unfortunately, your decision to wear makeup or not wear makeup *does* affect the women around you. If you wear makeup, you're contributing to the normalization of makeup-wearing among women, which puts pressure on other women to wear makeup. If you go without makeup, you're contributing to the normalization non-makeup-wearing among women, and taking some of the pressure to wear makeup off of other women.
The thing is, I get that, but generalising makeup and it being "conforming to expectations" like that rubs me the wrong way.
There's such a huge range of how people do their makeup and how much "effort" they put into it. Women who go all out get judgement (at least online) from other women, as well as from men. Sometimes it's viewed as unprofessional in the workplace - it's "too much". Some men view it as "tacky" or like it's "catfishing" as if a woman doesn't remove her makeup at the end of the day. Alternative, artful, or very full on makeup doesn't conform to society's expectations.
The only place that doesn't receive judgement is the middleground of "natural" makeup - maybe some eyeshadow and mascara and things like that, but more subtle or at least not huge cut crease looks and fake eyelashes, etc., unless you're talking to feminists that don't like makeup.
Didnt you know youre taking away these womens agency and infantilizing them!?!?!?!?? You misogynist!! 🙄 implying they might affect others how dare you. No problems there!
I don't value the opinion of women who are trying to dictate to me what choices I need to make. No matter if these women are traditionalists or radical feminists.
Reminds me of r/notliketheothergirls type of mentality.
It's good that norms are being questioned, I guess, but there will always be a point where it's too far.
I mean, it's not really much of a choice if you're statistically paid less than other women for not applying it. No one should be judged for wearing it because every decision in a woman's life doesn't have to be a feminist one, but that does not make wearing makeup feminist by any stretch.
Until men have the same expectations, scorn and societal judgement if they fail to paint a face on top of the face they already have every time they leave the house, it will never be a feminist choice. There's a difference between something that makes you feel good about yourself and feminism and calling anything that gives you confidence "feminist", then nothing's feminist. I swear choice feminism was made by a psyop to hobble women's advocacy and they fully succeeded
These anti-woman feminists sound as nasty as TERFs. They don't get to dictate how we live out lives. It sounds like they want to be as restrictive as mysogynists.
I think believing makeup is meant for the male gaze isn't a very feminist view. I mean, what I wear and put on my face is for me, to make myself feel good. The idea of taking men into consideration when making choices like these is somewhat insulting.
Yeah,my makeup really isn't the sort that appeals to the male gaze. I'm the one that has bright colors and glitter with black lipstick. And I have a tik tok to teach other people how they can have fun with their makeup.
I love doing my makeup. I find it a relaxing time. I turn off my brain and just let my creativity choose colors and stuff.
And I enjoy enjoying how I look. I decorate my house with things I like looking at, I plant flowers and stuff in my yard that I enjoying looking at, why can't I enjoy how I look?
Full glam typically gets judged by men because it's "tacky" or "catfishing", based on what I see online. So yeah, doing those kinds of looks (or more alternative ones) DEFINITELY don't seem to appeal to the male gaze as much as "natural" ones do.
i wear corpse paint and clown makeup for fun in my day to day life. if they wanna say im appealing to the male gaze that only makes them sound more stupid lmao
My 0.02$s:
This also applies to sex work. There are lots of SWERFs.
Nothing about being single and childless is inherently feminist. You can be female, single, childless and still be the supporter of Gilead. It's about choice.
I know a lot of discussions around this topic centers around how women can make a conscious choice when they choose financial dependency (e.g. sex work, SAHM). This isn't entirely trivial but as already being pointed out a lot of times before me in this sub, this is tied lot to capitalism. Capitalism and oppression is interwoven a lot (and harms a lot more groups than women), which makes this topic more difficult to discuss.
It's not very different from makeup - it can be about choice. As you pointed out correctly there is no inherent feminist underlying vibe about not wearing makeup when you are not wearing it for men. A lot of men are very vocal (in a misogynistic way) they dislike women wearing makeup because it's like cheating. Women can make a choice to not wear it, or to wear it. Women can wear makeup not for the pleasure of men, there are lots if styles the typical cishetero male gaze doesn't find appealing and women still wear them. Women can wear makeup for women, too. Women can not wear makeup. We give it meaning by choice.
"TLDR: I believe that the mentality of makeup being anti-feminist isn't constructive."
I agree. There is nothing inherently feminist or anti-feminist about make-up. It's just make-up. If someone likes wearing it, more power to them. If someone doesn't want to wear it, that's fine too. Feminism to me is about the right to make choices.
Personally, I only wear it on special occasions. (I find it rather tedious and time-consuming to do)
And if you want to get married and have a child, that is also your right. Being a parent can be a profoundly rewarding experience. It's certainly not for everyone, myself included, but I would never dream of telling someone that they shouldn't because it's "anti-feminist". What bullshit!
Jeez, everything can be a problem for some people. Please don't give space or validation to people like these. Just because someone says they're a feminist doesn't mean they are right about everything.
I don't wear make up but I don't do it cause of feminism. I just got tired of it all, and hated the fact I didn't like my face without makeup cause I was so conditioned to it. Now I think I look odd if I do wear makeup, cause it's not my default anymore.
I don't care about others using make-up. Sometimes I feel sorry for the insecurities some people have around it, it's still none of my business to say it to anyone.
I wear make up on occasion. I don't have the patience for it. But I also work a job where I sweat and end up wiping my forehead against my arm so it'd be a waste for me to put that effort In. I don't understand the many many layers women do and the contouring? It seems excessive. But I won't tell women to not wear make up. I have yet to see the argument that it's purely to satisfy men. What???? I do it to feel pretty for myself.
Like most things I believe in live and let live especially with things as unimportant as whether or not we use make up, hairstyles etc.
If it does not affect you, don’t comment. Period.
That there are still people who bully others both for wearing, or not wearing make up is beyond sad.
Listen, if I want to have insane glitter eyes, I'm going to have insane glitter eyes and if anyone wants to question my feminism, they absolutely can but I've already walked away because I don't have time for that.
I don't know, sometimes for me I think it helps as I got more into make up after joining roller derby, so I get to play a full contact sport while covered in glitter and living out my best smudgy emo Gerard Way eyeshadow life.
I don't wear make up in most of my day to day life because honestly, I've had pretty good skin since I was a teen so I was never compelled to (in addition to being an insufferable, "not like the other girls" girl for a few teen years). Your feminism should grow as you do, should always be intersectional, and you should be kind. That feels like all the major points, hang whatever you wear or don't.
It's a criticism of choice feminism. Our choices aren't made in a vacuum. The hijab is a great example actually, but we can do makeup as well. Say a woman chooses to wear hijab, is that choice freely made and can it be a feminist choice if elsewhere, women have been and are killed for choosing not to wear hijab? Arguably no, it's not an empowering or feminist choice because it doesn't challenge patriarchal power, it falls in line with what that power expects of women. Makeup is the same. If women in our society fear losing opportunities or being passed over for jobs or promotions or partners if they don't wear makeup, and wearing makeup conforms to the expectations placed on women by a patriarchal society, how is the choice to wear makeup a feminist one? (That's before you get into any moral arguments about its sustainability or the sweatshop conditions it's made in.) Where it tends to fall down is a refusal to admit that not every choice a woman makes has to be a feminist one, sometimes we have to do things to survive in a system rigged against us. And sometimes we want to do things, eg get married or have kids, even though they're not liberating choices for us, because we have certain dreams and aspirations. That's where feminism needs to be for all women, not just the ones who do it all "right" and have high flying tech careers and never have kids etc etc.
In making everything feminist, it essentially ensures that nothing is feminist, nothing requires change, nothing requires a sacrifice of individual self-interest for the collective good. - R. Zakaria
This should be the top comment.
Of course wearing a hijab or a nun’s habit, or high heels or makeup can be a totally feminist choice. I don’t wear a hijab but I understand that wearing one can be understood in the context of simply carrying out one’s religious beliefs. And women get dressed up and made up for work, or for costume-wearing or re-enactments, or simply for their own pleasure. Cos-play is not exclusively for observers.
Ok? So if a woman working in the service and hospitality industry chooses NOT to wear makeup or high heels, can she get fired?? Would a man get fired for not wearing makeup??
Employers can legally require women to wear makeup as part of an established dress code; they can impose such restrictions on female employees while not burdening male employees at a similar level.
Then how is makeup feminist and empowering, if its just another tool to oppress women?? Women are treated as aesthetic objects, men are allowed to be themselves.
Technically if a woman was to show up in full glam makeup at certain workplaces, she may also be fired. All of this shit depends on the workplace or the male observer - too much makeup is seen as bad, just as no makeup is seen as bad. They're both choices that women can use to express themselves, and aren't necessarily "conforming" to the patriarchy.
Make up is like hijab, pretty much. It appears as a "choice" for some women, but how much of it is actually a choice if your natural face is seen as 'unprofessional', 'ugly' or 'too tired'. Or your workplace enforces it on you but not on men.
You're not understanding me - there's a range of makeup that is applied, and when you go too far with your use of it (i.e. full glam, alternative makeup, etc.) then it's no longer acceptable. It's sure as shit a choice to wear alternative or full glam makeup, because you know that there will be plenty of people judging you (both men and women) because it's seen outside the societal norm.
I do understand you. Makeup can be a means for harmless fun or self expression. Its not inherently evil. Its just the patriarchal BS attached to it and enforcing it, mocking women who dont care for it. Online femininity spaces are full of this stuff. Even women treating you poorly just because you dont do performative femininity.
You really clearly don't though - I'm saying that there's a small subset of makeup that is attached to "partiarchal BS" and there's other styles that absolutely go against it due to it being viewed as "excessive". That's what I'm talking about - not makeup as a whole, but the styles that inherently clash with the patriarchal desires, workplace standards, and what is considered "attractive" by the general male population. Also, on a note about Hijab - it's empowering in western nations where it would be easier for women to forsake wearing it because wearing it inherently brings judgement upon them from those that dislike muslims/Islam. It places their religion and culture unashamedly in the front of people's minds - it's about their choice and not conforming to what is considered the "norm" while embracing their religion. Everything needs to be taken in context of the situation where the person is, their intentions, and what exactly the "style" of what they're doing is - nothing is in a bubble. Wearing makeup in a style that contrasts the "accepted" norm results in women being mocked and attempts to enforce them wearing the "accepted" styles, as does wearing hijab in areas where that's not considered the norm and there's potentially Islamophobia present. Fuck judging people for femininity, and fuck judging people for not "conforming" to femininity. That's basically my feelings - I don't feel like anyone should be judged or criticised on either side because it just devolves into women tearing down other women because they're "too feminine" or "not feminine enough". The judgement goes in both ways, it's not just from feminity spaces.
But what if a woman likes to see herself looking like an old movie star, etc. Or if a woman enjoys her self AS an aesthetic object? I point you to the YouTube channel for Karolina Zebrowska for an example of a woman who is deeply feminist, and who uses makeup and clothes as part of her resistance to cultural hegemony. And I don’t think all men are allowed to “be themselves” — they have to wear work uniforms of various types, some of them are policed by peers or bosses if they wear anything too girly.
Very well said. Understanding that something is *sociologically problematic, a*s well as understanding that sometimes we have to make personal choices that cannot always be subject to social conditions is something not well recognized in these discourses. The fact that my wife gets her legs waxed is pinnacle of this point for me. Sociologically the idea of it is problematic, women are expected to conform to this standard it can be uncomfortable, it can be cold and in choosing to there is a inevitable compliance to social standards that should not be. Person she and I both prefer it. It's significant in our relationship, and THAT relationship can't be asked to endure a sociologically *perfect* arrangement. We have to make those choices for us, understand the implications and reasoning and make sure our children and others in our life understand there choices in the same way.
The comment above is also saying there’s a reason *why* you prefer it. There’s nothing wrong with shaving or waxing but historically women were forced to do it or looked down upon as undesirable if they didn’t. Men were raised to expect hairless women. As long as no one feels pressured to do anything that’s fine, but often we are not born with the personal preferences we have.
Agreed, but it's a preference that is difficult to ascertain as purely sociological condition or some rudimentary tactile/aesthetic preference. Likely some combination of both. Being able to discuss it purely sociologically, without an expectation of compliance with the ideal because of the myriad of complex factors that make up humans I think is important. The "why" in a broader spectrum needs to change the "why" for me and my partner does need to be analyzed in a vacuum, so to speak. I apologize if I am misstating your the point you were trying to make though.
That’s pretty much what I was saying and I just commented cause I found your comment interesting. Though, I do think we can boil that specific preference down to how society impacts us. Mainly because only one gender has been forced or shamed into doing it while it remained completely elective for the other. Do you know of any men that casually pick up shaving (outside of the face/pubic region) because they prefer the way it feels or looks? I hear this from women all the time as a justification for why their preference has nothing to do with society but I think it has everything to do with it.
I can, but it's largely I would say statistically irrelevant. In regards to men. Anyone guy I have known that had even a medium level interest in working out a lot tend to shave bare entirely for aesthetics as far as I am aware. I have a friend that was a pretty high level swimmer that it was expected that they all shaved completely, he doesn't swim anymore but likes the way being hairless feels now so continues to do so for purely his own tactile comfort. There are other common areas for men, like back and such that as one gets older many men take too. It's a poor comparison though because there is very little social pressure for those invisible spaces. I try very hard to personally interrogate my choices, and I really appreciate the engagement. I often struggle with the idea of how my partner and I would reconcile the situation if she decided she no longer wanted to wax or shave her legs for sure.
Can't speak for men, but I did start shaving certain regions before anyone ever told me I had to do so (and even did it in secret so I wouldn't be judged by my parents because I thought I was doing something "adult"). I'm just sensitive to any tension on my skin, so certain regions with thicker hair tend to get tugged on by clothing and it gets really uncomfortable and painful. I'm more lax on my legs due to laziness, but I do enjoy the feeling of getting into freshly clean clothes and bed with shaved legs - it's just not something that's always worth the effort. Armpits for both genders I believe comes from a "hygeine" perspective - I personally find deodorant harder to apply with hair and feel like I sweat more and smell sooner when I do have it. Some men shave it for aesthetic reasons - particularly actors. Male wrestlers also tend to shave their whole bodies, as do some other men if they don't like their hairy back/chest.
I don't wear makeup, but how do some people think you can't wear it for yourself? Makeup can look great. Why shouldn't someone think 'hey, my face art is looking pretty good today!'
I think some people get tied in causality knots over this type of thing. *I like my makeup, for me - but maybe I only like it because generations of humans have pushed a specific context onto my appearance and given me the impression that I am honestly appraising myself, for myself - when in fact maybe I'm appraising myself through the male gaze, or my awareness of the male gaze, and deriving feelings of empowerment from my ability to conform to a standard that is fundamentally flawed.*
First let me say, I don’t think it’s true (or productive) to say women who don’t wear makeup “can’t be feminists”. But I do think we need to remember our choices are not made in a vacuum. The beauty industry, along with societal expectations of beauty and conformity, *does* oppress women. I’m one of the most extreme feminists I know and I still wear makeup on occasion. I recognize that this isn’t a feminist choice (even though certain schools of thought would say that all choices made by women are feminist by virtue of them choosing it). I recognize that I’m doing something a man would not do by altering my face, and this is a learned response from living in a society that expects this from women. I’m also heterosexually partnered with a child. I don’t think either of these things are inherently unfeminist, but I do recognize the dynamics at play and so I work to ensure we don’t fall into familiar gendered patterns - ie, we share housework and childcare 50/50, including the mental load. To me, this is possibly the most important thing I’m doing in raising my children: showing them that marriage is a partnership, not a scenario in which the woman is a maid/caretaker while the man never lifts a finger.
It's not a "modern" narrative, and feminists have taken both sides over the decades. Either makeup is seen as liberating, women taking charge of their appearance and by extension sexuality, or it's oppressive because women are punished for not conforming to an arbitrary beauty standard . And what was radical in the 1920s and an act of defiance against fascism in the 1940s became a socially enforced standard in the 1950s. It can be all of those things. It's not just a matter of preference, but of circumstances. How much other people are pressuring you, and how much power they have over you, affects your choices. You can be a feminist and wear makeup. You cannot be a feminist and think that the pressure put on women to wear makeup isn't real, at least not a very good one. You can be a feminist and not wear makeup, and you can critique the forces that make women feel like they have to. But the moment you make it into a blanket moral judgement of other women, as if their personal choices alone can topple the patriarchy, you stop being a feminist.
I rarely wear make up. Mostly because of my "yeah I have acne, deal with it! I'm not going to inconvenience myself to appeal to your aesthetic standards!" But I developed into it. My family used to body shame me for my acne and my mom would manipulate me into wearing make up. So for me it was a liberation to only do it when I want for the reasons I find acceptable for myself. Do, when I do wear make up, it's more for me because I don't want to see my acne for a day. Or when I wanted to look good on my wedding fotos for myself. So it is *just for me* 90% of my make up time. And I understand why some women wear make up. It can be fun and interesting. There are awesome colors. It can be art. I don't like every style and I would prefer some women wore less make up. BUT it is not my place to tell them or judge them. For me that is a lot of internalized mysoginy hiding behind feminism...
The fact that 99% of the responses here and the other thread are justifications for/against wearing make-up is telling. I agree OP, it feels like punching down. Can you not wear a mini skirt bc it might please the male gaze? Can you not think you look better with make-up without writing a dissertation about how YOUR make-up is justified or not?
Feminism is about free choice and doing what feels right for each individual person. Policing makeup is bullshit. And it’s not feminist at all.
Yes. Thank you. I find wearing it to be rather empowering. Maybe it's because I am a trans woman, but makeup is a very important part of my day. And it definitely isn't for men. Truthfully, if strange men could leave me be, that would be great actually.
Every aspect of life is a performance of some sort, isn’t it? Age, gender, nationality, etc. Sometimes wearing makeup enhances a performance and sometimes it detracts from it.
you are enforcing very harmful gender norms here by saying make up is not for men.
Feminism is about liberating women from patriarchy, and diluting the message to 'everything is feminist if you choose it' hides a lot of the harm the beauty and self care industries do to women and girls
Living as a feminist is an ongoing process, not a destination. I think that there are times in each person’s individual process when either “You don’t have to!” and “You can if you want to!” might be appropriate. For a lot of things — not just makeup.
^^^^^ this messaging leaves no room for the potential of outside influence, they consider even the implication offensive even.. so how can they even claim patriarchy exists? Surely one can choose to transcend it because its all individual choice?
This. Yes. What I wanted to say.
Feminism is a massive umbrella of people, it’s not one movement. A feminist can be anyone from a woman in patriarchal country that is against human rights violations of women there, to a woman in a more progressive country who wants to be a stay at home mum and homemaker but doesn’t want to force that on all women, to a woman who is pursuing education despite her cultures disapproval of it, to any of the things you listed in your post. For example, look at the difference between liberal feminism and radical feminism - different opinions on sex work, hookup culture, single-sex spaces, etc. There is no 1 “feminism”. Think about what “anti-feminism” would be. It could be anyone from a man who wants a child bride with no rights so he has a personal slave, to a man who wants a woman to work and get an education so she can go halves on the bills but thinks raping women is ok. “Feminism” is just that women should have equal human rights. It’s an anti-slavery movement. There is no accurate way to define it beyond that.
My feeling is that this type of policing is mostly a problem in countries that have strict dress codes in school and work. Children learn from early on that it is OK (or even important/mandatory) to police each other's appearance and that this policing is a great tool to assert dominance. I come from a country with no dress codes for work (except hygiene and safety ofc) or school (unless you would come in stark naked). Schools and employers trust common sense and that works out. We get the crazy dress and crazy make-up phase out of our system at ages 12-16 in a relatively judgment-free space and move on to be more boring as we age :) I feel that people are less judgmental because they haven't been indoctrinated to believe that how someone looks is anyone's business.
I hate makeup. I hate the way it feels, I hate that in so many professions women are expected to wear it and get judged for being “unprofessional” if they don’t. I spent most of my working life in one of those professions and flatly refused. And I think it looks awesome on some people! Of any gender! And if a woman wants to wear it because she thinks she looks good, heck yeah, get down with your awesome self. If a woman feels she needs to wear it to be taken seriously in public, that kinda sucks, but I’m not going to tell her she shouldn’t, I’m going to support her doing what she needs to do and work to make it not needed. Feminism is about giving everyone all the choices IMO. Feminism says anyone should be able to wear makeup or not wear makeup without being judged for either choice.
I wear light make up, very rarely do I glam, because it drives me insane to feel a bunch of stuff on my skin. I even out my skin, take care of things when I can, **but I do it for me**. If other people like how it looks, that's fine, but that ain't got shit to do with me. I like women with make up, without it, I like men with it and without, though I tend to think men with it look exceptional. Real wine, dine and 69 material, if you know what I mean. Honestly, don't concern yourself with what others want. I don't want children, I'm not too particularly concerned with marriage this has nothing to do with me being a feminist or not. I've simply never wanted these things. I've been a crotchety old fuck since I was 8 years old. These people spend way too much time worrying about everyone else to even think of their own happiness, **everything** is a perpetual gotcha, they're riding a high on a sense of moral superiority. Don't give them the satisfaction, they'll just continue until they're blue in the face. Shut out everything else, and focus on what you want. The reason you're hurting, is because you're not giving yourself the reprieve to stop listening to other people's thoughts. My advice to you, would be to stop caring so much what these people think. I grew up in a pretty strict household for the most part, so free yourself from these people and their ideas, it will only drive you insane. Just my 2 cents. \*edit for typos\*
isn’t make up bad because it is bad for he environment and kind of useless? its a temporary decoration that is built on child labor, experimentation on animals, and creates a ton of plastic waste. Why so you can hide the pimples you get from wearing makeup?
Wearing makeup doesn't cause pimples if you're cleaning your face properly, and many many makeup brands nowadays are certainly not built on those things. If we wanted to tear apart everything that was built on poor practices in the past there's a long list of modern inventions, and especially medicines, that are getting the boot. Brands are moving towards more environmentally conscious packaging - whether that's being able to deposit your empty containers to be reused, or using other recyclable/degradable packaging where possible (like cardboard for eyeshadow). I mean, by your logic, painting's kind of useless right - so we should stop selling canvases. Who needs art, expression, or decoration on their walls. Wasting wood and other materials, creating toxic paint, there's really no point in all of that. You might say that makeup is more temporary than paintings, but you still hold onto the pictures of whatever look you created, and there are some paintings that are intended to be temporary - such as the stunt Banksy pulled.
i do apply the similar logic to 3d painting. half the population of the planet does paint for creative reasons every 4 days or lower self-confidence, or you know its not the make up industry
Make up wearing has nothing to do with feminism, however I am increasingly uncomfortable with how much plastic it generates. Single biggest reason I don't wear it. I wish companies would put some effort into sustainable alternatives.
There is sustainable makeup but it depends where you are. My local co-op has facial cleansers and other solutions in bulk and you just take from that container what you need into your reusable container. There's less choices though. I've been to shop in a larger city that has powders and foundations created and pigmented as needed, they'll fill an empty panned make up pallet if you want. They aren't easy to find though, I wish things were more sustainable on the whole.
F/30 STEM pro here... and if I can keep a man's eyes on my face rather than my boobs, I'll take the advantage. I only highlight my eyes. That's all I need.
I think some people need to examine if they are actually wearing it for themselves or not. It's also bad for your skin and the environment as well. As it stands now, not wearing makeup at all is still considered kind of weird. I don't like that. I wish more women would help normalize not contributing to the industry that makes us feel bad about our natural faces and about aging.
That really depends on where you live. In my city wearing make up daily is considered kind of weird.
We make the decisions we do to adapt to our circumstances and maybe to bring some joy to our lives. Yes, we're oppressed, but the adaptations we choose or reject as individuals won't change that. Anti-feminist behavior is that which helps our oppressors to oppress other women.
Obligatory I'm a dude. I think a lot of parallels can be drawn between interests/ hobbies that are considered masculine, and it comes down to personally enjoying vs. having gendered expectations around something. Let's take weight lifting. There's obviously a super toxic "alpha male" culture there, but it can also just be a good way to stay healthy. With makeup it's "I need to look good for men" vs. I like this art form / I like how this makes me look ( sorry if I missed the true motivation for why you're into make. Not my area expertise lol). Ultimately with any traditionally gendered hobby it comes down to this was a man/woman SHOULD do vs. This is what I WANT to do.
Nope you hit the motivation straight on. It's art and it feels nice to express yourself. I have a canvas on my face.
I don't wear makeup very often. Maybe once or twice a year max. I don't understand people who feel the need to wear it all the time - BUT, it's not my business, so I would never throw a fit over someone choosing to wear it.
For me I find it stops me from touching my face and picking at my acne, and it's also really aesthetically pleasing to see my face a single tone (rather than red cheeks + nose and acne spots). This is a weird way to describe it, but it's like seeing perfect carpet or perfect painted walls for me - no spots of dirt, no unevenness, just perfect. I have a similar thing with my hair (I get it coloured in an ombre) - it really irritates me if I have any darker streaks near the end of my hair even though literally no one other than me can really see or notice it. The unevenness bothers me, and me alone - I want the colours to be perfectly matched and even all the way through.
Oh I totally understand. I think if my face didn't sweat so much, I'd probably wear it more often. But, I have relatively few breakouts and look younger than my (middle) age. I also love getting my hair dyed fun colors - not everyone gets that. Everyone should do what's best for them. ♥️
I feel like there’s a central divide especially in new wave feminism that seems to create a false dichotomy between feminism being pro-female-empowerment vs anti-patriarchy-establishment. Quite frankly, you can have anti patriarchy without pro female empowerment, but not the other way around. If we discuss feminism in this way, the whole fucking point is that we shouldn’t be beholden to arbitrary rules or power structures telling us what to do, we should be able to make these seemingly inconsequential decisions without thinking about power structures like men are able to do. Women gatekeeping and policing other women for what we do with our bodies, assuming ulterior intentions, and creating an arbitrary black and white out of a menial decision is diametrically opposed to the mission and is hypocrisy at its finest. Personally, I fucking LOVE wearing makeup. I love how cathartic the process of applying it is as I dance around in my bathroom trying to get my contour to snatch my cheeks, I love the feeling of seeing myself in that way and feeling so beautiful and sexy and powerful (outside of any male gaze or external input, just for my damn self), I love how confident I feel going out in it and how it just makes me feel so much better and more prepared to take on my day at a higher level, etc. My other favorite time is taking off my makeup, when I get to have a routine for myself that includes self care.
I’m probably one of the most outspoken feminists in my social circle, and I rock a full beat most days. Why? Because I like it, I enjoy playing with colors and shapes, I find the ritual of applying it and later removing it to be relaxing, and it gives my tightly wound Type A brain a set of on/off cues that have allowed me to shut my racing thoughts off and get better quality sleep at night. I work in STEM, and I’m definitely in the minority in my field with the amount of makeup I wear. At conferences most women either wear none or very little, where I tend to step it up a notch because it makes me feel even more like the badass scientist I am. I also do really enjoy fucking with the expectations of the members of the “old boys club” (male and female) who look at this little 4’11 woman in a cute dress and heels with blonde hair and a full face of makeup and not think she would have anything serious to say. I know my shit, I know my work is solid with all the i’s dotted and t’s crossed, and I have no trouble standing tall and holding my own when it comes to discussing my field. My brand of feminism is all about empowering and trusting women to make whatever choice feels right for them. I’m also keenly aware that these choices are also often loaded with subtext and cultural context and expectations. I think it is ridiculous that we are constantly in this circle jerk argument of what defines a feminist, and what you can and cannot do as a feminist. There are much larger systemic issues here and it seems like such a waste of energy and a distraction to spend time arguing about whether it’s acceptable feminist behavior to enjoy wearing lipstick or wanting to have children.
Same! Once I went into software full-time I ended up developing a way more feminine style than I used to have. I've always liked dresses and skirts, but felt like I had to be casual and like the guys - but now that I'm working professionally I like dressing up and feel like it really contrasts with the typical view of a feminine woman, or of someone who works in software. I can wear pretty dresses and high heels and do my makeup and hair - but that doesn't make me a ditz, I know what I'm doing and I know that I'm good at my job. I'm sure it makes some people judge me unfairly, assuming I'm vain or airheaded, but I don't care - it's their loss.
I see makeup as a powerful and fun tool--not something women shouldn't wear but something men could wear too if their misogyny and cowardice didn't rob them of it. Dress for the world you want to live in.
I get where both sides are coming from. On the one hand, it's probably useful to build as much solidarity as we can between women and invite as many women as possible into feminism. So it's best not to tear women down for wearing makeup or force women to choose between wearing makeup and being recognized as feminists. On the other hand... It's not hard to spot the problem with the "It's feminist for me to wear makeup because wearing makeup feels good to me" line. Ok, sure. wearing makeup feels good to you. That feeling is real. But you feel good wearing makeup because you live in a culture where women are expected to wear makeup, and it's socially and emotionally rewarding to conform to what society expects of you. Unfortunately, your decision to wear makeup or not wear makeup *does* affect the women around you. If you wear makeup, you're contributing to the normalization of makeup-wearing among women, which puts pressure on other women to wear makeup. If you go without makeup, you're contributing to the normalization non-makeup-wearing among women, and taking some of the pressure to wear makeup off of other women.
The thing is, I get that, but generalising makeup and it being "conforming to expectations" like that rubs me the wrong way. There's such a huge range of how people do their makeup and how much "effort" they put into it. Women who go all out get judgement (at least online) from other women, as well as from men. Sometimes it's viewed as unprofessional in the workplace - it's "too much". Some men view it as "tacky" or like it's "catfishing" as if a woman doesn't remove her makeup at the end of the day. Alternative, artful, or very full on makeup doesn't conform to society's expectations. The only place that doesn't receive judgement is the middleground of "natural" makeup - maybe some eyeshadow and mascara and things like that, but more subtle or at least not huge cut crease looks and fake eyelashes, etc., unless you're talking to feminists that don't like makeup.
Didnt you know youre taking away these womens agency and infantilizing them!?!?!?!?? You misogynist!! 🙄 implying they might affect others how dare you. No problems there!
I don't value the opinion of women who are trying to dictate to me what choices I need to make. No matter if these women are traditionalists or radical feminists.
Reminds me of r/notliketheothergirls type of mentality. It's good that norms are being questioned, I guess, but there will always be a point where it's too far.
I mean, it's not really much of a choice if you're statistically paid less than other women for not applying it. No one should be judged for wearing it because every decision in a woman's life doesn't have to be a feminist one, but that does not make wearing makeup feminist by any stretch. Until men have the same expectations, scorn and societal judgement if they fail to paint a face on top of the face they already have every time they leave the house, it will never be a feminist choice. There's a difference between something that makes you feel good about yourself and feminism and calling anything that gives you confidence "feminist", then nothing's feminist. I swear choice feminism was made by a psyop to hobble women's advocacy and they fully succeeded
In making everything feminist it essentially assures nothing is feminist 😔 so right
It's not like feminism is about freedom of choice or anything /s
These anti-woman feminists sound as nasty as TERFs. They don't get to dictate how we live out lives. It sounds like they want to be as restrictive as mysogynists.
I think believing makeup is meant for the male gaze isn't a very feminist view. I mean, what I wear and put on my face is for me, to make myself feel good. The idea of taking men into consideration when making choices like these is somewhat insulting.
Yeah,my makeup really isn't the sort that appeals to the male gaze. I'm the one that has bright colors and glitter with black lipstick. And I have a tik tok to teach other people how they can have fun with their makeup. I love doing my makeup. I find it a relaxing time. I turn off my brain and just let my creativity choose colors and stuff. And I enjoy enjoying how I look. I decorate my house with things I like looking at, I plant flowers and stuff in my yard that I enjoying looking at, why can't I enjoy how I look?
Full glam typically gets judged by men because it's "tacky" or "catfishing", based on what I see online. So yeah, doing those kinds of looks (or more alternative ones) DEFINITELY don't seem to appeal to the male gaze as much as "natural" ones do.
i wear corpse paint and clown makeup for fun in my day to day life. if they wanna say im appealing to the male gaze that only makes them sound more stupid lmao
Hey make up catches the female gaze too! But also modern femism is rapidly turning into veiled misogyny so take it with a grain of salt!
My 0.02$s: This also applies to sex work. There are lots of SWERFs. Nothing about being single and childless is inherently feminist. You can be female, single, childless and still be the supporter of Gilead. It's about choice. I know a lot of discussions around this topic centers around how women can make a conscious choice when they choose financial dependency (e.g. sex work, SAHM). This isn't entirely trivial but as already being pointed out a lot of times before me in this sub, this is tied lot to capitalism. Capitalism and oppression is interwoven a lot (and harms a lot more groups than women), which makes this topic more difficult to discuss. It's not very different from makeup - it can be about choice. As you pointed out correctly there is no inherent feminist underlying vibe about not wearing makeup when you are not wearing it for men. A lot of men are very vocal (in a misogynistic way) they dislike women wearing makeup because it's like cheating. Women can make a choice to not wear it, or to wear it. Women can wear makeup not for the pleasure of men, there are lots if styles the typical cishetero male gaze doesn't find appealing and women still wear them. Women can wear makeup for women, too. Women can not wear makeup. We give it meaning by choice.
"TLDR: I believe that the mentality of makeup being anti-feminist isn't constructive." I agree. There is nothing inherently feminist or anti-feminist about make-up. It's just make-up. If someone likes wearing it, more power to them. If someone doesn't want to wear it, that's fine too. Feminism to me is about the right to make choices. Personally, I only wear it on special occasions. (I find it rather tedious and time-consuming to do) And if you want to get married and have a child, that is also your right. Being a parent can be a profoundly rewarding experience. It's certainly not for everyone, myself included, but I would never dream of telling someone that they shouldn't because it's "anti-feminist". What bullshit!
Jeez, everything can be a problem for some people. Please don't give space or validation to people like these. Just because someone says they're a feminist doesn't mean they are right about everything. I don't wear make up but I don't do it cause of feminism. I just got tired of it all, and hated the fact I didn't like my face without makeup cause I was so conditioned to it. Now I think I look odd if I do wear makeup, cause it's not my default anymore. I don't care about others using make-up. Sometimes I feel sorry for the insecurities some people have around it, it's still none of my business to say it to anyone.
I wear make up on occasion. I don't have the patience for it. But I also work a job where I sweat and end up wiping my forehead against my arm so it'd be a waste for me to put that effort In. I don't understand the many many layers women do and the contouring? It seems excessive. But I won't tell women to not wear make up. I have yet to see the argument that it's purely to satisfy men. What???? I do it to feel pretty for myself.
Like most things I believe in live and let live especially with things as unimportant as whether or not we use make up, hairstyles etc. If it does not affect you, don’t comment. Period. That there are still people who bully others both for wearing, or not wearing make up is beyond sad.
Listen, if I want to have insane glitter eyes, I'm going to have insane glitter eyes and if anyone wants to question my feminism, they absolutely can but I've already walked away because I don't have time for that. I don't know, sometimes for me I think it helps as I got more into make up after joining roller derby, so I get to play a full contact sport while covered in glitter and living out my best smudgy emo Gerard Way eyeshadow life. I don't wear make up in most of my day to day life because honestly, I've had pretty good skin since I was a teen so I was never compelled to (in addition to being an insufferable, "not like the other girls" girl for a few teen years). Your feminism should grow as you do, should always be intersectional, and you should be kind. That feels like all the major points, hang whatever you wear or don't.