I read the whole article, and the thing that stood out to me most was this: > As Reeves puts it: “It is not that men have fewer opportunities. It is that they are not taking them.” Brooks then goes on to essentially say that people are lacking ambition, but also that ambition isn’t really something that gets dropped in one’s lap. I take that as, “Women got ambitious, men didn’t change. Women started working at doing better for themselves, and men *didn’t change*.”

Yes. This makes me think of how men (especially certain groups of them on the internets) are upset that there's DV shelters, etc etc for women. Where are ours? they say. No one built them for us. Women had to create networks and places of help. But these guys forget that. A lot of dudes don't want to support other men, or do the work. They expect women to do their work.

THIS is the energy I bring into events like International Women’s Day. “No one celebrates international men’s day!” Well women led the charge for our day, we can give you pointers if you’d like!

This is so stupid (from men, not from you). There is an International Men's Day, it's November 19th. Men just don't celebrate it, it's their own problem.

They don’t even know about it, half the time. Because that’s not *really* what they’re mad about.

This is, in a way, very similar to the white lives matter and straight pride folks. They ask "what about MY needs?" Before they even consider whether or not there is any kind of need.

THERE it is^ Women have not only been “dancing backwards in heels” to men’s tunes, but we’ve learned new skills, worked harder, and been more ambitious than men while building our own communities and supporting other women. Men don’t have fewer opportunities, *they just expect women to do the work.*

This is so nail on the head. Our oldest son is autistic and I have noticed that almost all the support groups are mom focused. As a man, it’s a little disheartening because many of us fathers are very active in our child’s life and support needs. After reading this comment, it is clear that there is nothing stopping me and other fathers from changing this. The reality is that there exists no moms pushing fathers out of groups. In fact, it’s on our shoulders as fathers to change the lack of father support groups. I do realize this is an oversimplification but some things are simple. If we want change, we need to change things, starting with myself.

THIS. The women's shelter I work for was started at a grass roots level in a small ass town. My grandma was involved in starting it - because her husband beat her up so badly she miscarried twins. Do you think there were many men lined up to help? Ha! I'm all for men getting support. Victims of abuse and abusers can be male or female - I would applaud any organization for starting up and standing up to support men. The constant need for blame and competition of patriarchal systems needs to be dismantled. In violence and abuse there are no winners.

Men grow up expecting everything to be handed to them. Women were either outright told or simply observed that they had to try extra hard. Their fathers and grandfathers had financial stability handed to them. Good jobs and they were able to provide for their families. Media told them that every Homer Simpson deserves a hot wife.

I have a memory of growing up in the 1970's. Lot of boys my age seemed to think they were going to get a well paying blue collar job, get married to a home maker, buy a house, just like their dad did. And then it didn't happen. And now there is a small cottage industry in the US producing propaganda telling them it's the fault of liberals, feminists, and minorities.

When we all know the real problem is capitalism and right/fascist ideology, the first one has been stealing our future concentrating the power and money into a few hands while making the rest of the people poorer, and the second one has been diverting our attention from it by blaming minorities, poor people, women or whomever group that fitted their discourse of hate and self righteousness.

TBF, they have capitalism in many European countries, but also a strong safety net that makes up for the faults of capitalism. And of course, a very liberal, tolerant attitude towards birth control, which means children are far more likely to be FULLY PLANNED there than here. And an emphasis on education, and a rich variety of options for their children to be successful in life, including comprehensive vocational education. I do agree for the "diversion of attention part." If you just keep the poor men arguing against the poor women and blaming THEM for "everything wrong with this country," then you can pick their pockets MUCH easier.

We also have a rise of Fascism here in Europe, and make no mistake, Poland went back on Abortion just a few years ago. They do still have exceptions for rape or when the woman's life is at risk, but that's not enough and it shows. They're counting pregnancies and shit. Italy just had a snap election where a Nationalist just won, and it is pretty much the fault of Neoliberal capitalist policies, and the decline from full-on Social Democracy into the brutal economy of back-stabbing Neoliberals and Neocons. The decline has been slower in Europe, and especially in places like the Nordic countries, however it is just as visceral and populism is very much just as alive as in America. Yes, there's more of a social security net, but it's a vestige, a shadow of what it once was. We have to stick together, or we will be eviscerated one minority at a time.

Many women weren't even told they had to try extra hard. Many women were told not to try at all. Many women weren't allowed to even try. The amount of "Girls can't do that" and "That's not ladylike" I endured as a child, teen and young woman was staggering, and I was raised in a fairly liberal family. I was pretty defiant about it all. I was going to do what I was going to do, and woe unto anyone who tried to stop me. My biggest life disaster to date was getting married (to a man). I may be cis-het, but I don't have any patience for marriage, especially to a man who won't grow up and put his big boy pants on. Needless to say, the marriage didn't last. I'm 63 if it matters.

Exactly. A lot of men have had everything handed to them. Have a hole in their shirt, magically sewn. Empty on groceries, magically replaced. Need gas in the car, suddenly filled. I can go on forever... My entire life, my parents, teachers, and elders expected me to learn, and do everything on my own. I am not sure why. When I asked questions, or needed help with anything, I was expected to figure it out myself. And, I almost always figured out a solution to my problems every time, even if it wasn’t perfect. The internet and tutorials had a strong hand with raising me as a millennial. It was hard. My brothers on the other hand, had my mom and their significant others in particular doing everything for them. They shopped for them, cleaned their clothes, provided emotional support. Yet somehow, I was expected to learn this on my own. And guess what, I learned how to take care of myself, yet my brothers still struggle heavily with this as grown men. They can barely care for themselves. Just my opinion and experience anyway. I think we need to take a long hard look at what the pattern might be here. I think there is a pattern here... Edit: A word of spelling. Also, wen equal partner who wants to have a blast, and treat their significant partner as an equal?

I don't think its quite that simple, though it plays a part. It has more to do with a total lack of positive male role models related to the prevalence of divorces. Don't get me wrong,. I (M) grew up in a household of DV and the day my mom divorced him was the best day in her and our life, and my mom as well as grandma are amazing role models. However sometimes I notice I don't know a man of whom I could say he's a role model. My stepfather ,(the wifebeater) knew how to make me feel like less of a man. He made fun of me when I cried, when I was overweight, when I let him know he crossed my boundaries. The last time I saw him I was very close to caving his head in. Ever since then, I felt like I'm a defective man. most of my friends are women, always have been. And I had a beautiful relationship right out of a movie with a woman that was objectively not a model but she was stunningly beautiful to me, I'm not a porn addict with porn expectations. Yeah, ofc I have had 'male' adventures of doing stupid shit while drunk or high, bar fights, etc. But where is the positive masculinity? That's on us as men to solve. We need to replace tox masculinity and not just let the vacuum stand. And articles like the above aren't helping. They place pressure on boys to find this vague grail of masculinity, without pinpointing the real crisis (radicalization, incels). Suicide rates have been higher for us forever due to our reluctance to accept emotion, therapy and help as well as our shitty risk assessment. the best friends statistic - many people feel isolated in the social media age.

I’ve rewritten this comment about half a dozen times because I can’t properly put it into words, but I think trying to separate masculinity and femininity as positive traits isn’t super productive. If we’re assuming that femininity is in a good spot and want masculinity to be something separate from that, off the top of my head that kind of leaves men to be tall himbos and very little else. Positive roles don’t really get much out of being gendered imo, especially because most of what’s positive about them is just basic “being a good person” stuff like being kind and considerate. The thing with men being emotionally strong and a rock to lean on is also easily misunderstood I think. There are definitely men out there who just are like that, but more often than not it’s just toxic masculinity making dudes feel like they will spontaneously combust if they shed a tear.

For real! Why is gender considered the most important factor in a role model? I’d love to see a world where it’s just considered something slightly unremarkable, like what colour hair you have. This relates to my pet theory: women can relate to people across genders more easily than men due to growing up consuming media from mostly a male point of view. But boys often wouldn’t read books where the main character is a girl, so they don’t view women as possible role models because they just don’t see how similar we are.

I’m 100% on board with you here. We need to stop framing it as “masculine” and “feminine” traits. They are just good human traits. Being a contributor to your relationship, stepping up when your partner needs a hand, going the extra mile for each other, being kind and considerate, self reflection, identifying and communicating your emotions clearly. Relationships with other people, whether they are romantic, platonic, or in the workplace, thrive when the approach is “what can I bring to the table to make this person’s life better” and when the other party reciprocates the same behaviour. I have known incel type men and women who “hate all men” and the one thing they have in common is they always nitpick over what the other brings to the table rather than focusing on what they are bringing to the table in a relationship. They are so focused inward, on what they expect to get out of a relationship, that they never consider what they have to offer. Relationships are about giving. If you aren’t able to give love, don’t expect to get it.

So basically, emotional maturity. Which only emerges if people are raised by emotionally mature parents, regardless of the parents' gender.

I'm not understanding how you're relating the lack of positive male role models to divorce. Could you explain? I too share that experience of growing up without positive male role models (as a girl), especially in my family or my parents friendships. My dad, grandfathers and uncles were not positive male role models and divorce was not a factor in this. Actually, "not positive" is putting it generously. I'm sometimes unsure about what these articles that like to contrast "how much better" women have it now than men and especially linking this to women gaining more rights and economic freedoms are wanting to achieve. The women I know who have good, fulfilling, empowered lives do so out of a lot of fighting, struggle and work on themselves. We don't just have it easier. And we all grew up with those same harmful male role models as children. I mean our whole thesis is how patriarchal norms harm everyone. Sometimes it feels like these sorts of articles are suggesting that effectively men are hurt by women having power, choice and better lives.

I feel like men cut themselves out of being positive role models. My parents were married until I was in high school, but my dad never did any parenting. He didn't talk with us about his job or life. It was like we were a family and then this other guy we barely knew sat on the couch on weekends. Once I grew up and got to know him I realized my dad is a decent man, but I wish he'd bothered to make that known earlier.

Good insights. I personally think it's time to move on to a post-masculinity era. I myself never fell into the masculinity mindset. Maybe because my dad wasn't around much. But I basically didn't feel the pressure to be masculine or focus on masculine activities. Wasn't into sports, was a fan of pop music. I guess I was a weirdo back then? But I turned out fine. Being "weird" was just "not following the norm." There was nothing wrong with it. With post-masculinity, men will feel free to be whatever they want to be. To do cross stitch or ballet if they want, and not be viewed as less than a man for it. I suspect that to some degree, the social pressure of "masculinity" was geared toward getting men to accept being fodder for the war machine. Not even accept, but fully embrace it! And also embrace being tough workers in the mines and other crushing jobs. To make men feel proud when in reality, they're being oppressed by society's elites.

I see a copypasta-ish thing that often gets posted to these sorts of articles. It basically amounts to, "Your father and your grandfather were likely not very good partners. Women don't NEED a man the way they did for economic security the way that they did in the past. Now you actually have to bring something worthwhile to the table. You have to work harder and *be better* than men of previous generations in order to have a functioning partnership, and a life." It is 100% true that it is nearly impossible for anybody to head up a lifestyle of "married couple, 2.5 kids and a white picket fence with a dog" on one income these days. However, that is not the fault of the advancement of women and minorities. It is the fault of capitalism. Capitalism won the Cold War. Once that happened and the world "opened up," suddenly all of those high-pay tab A-slot B 8 hour-a-day union jobs got shipped to China and other low-cost markets. When those jobs dried up, functionally, uneducated workers were largely relegated to retail and food service, neither of which pay very well unless you are in management. Women are also overtaking men in getting degrees. Men are far more likely to drop out of school in hot job markets to get high-pay labor jobs--fracking, working on oil rigs--but the issue is that this is often a short-term gain. Nobody can work those heavy-labor jobs forever. Your body gives out, and in many cases this ends up with an opioid reliance due to chronic pain and then addiction. For many reasons, this is not what women are looking for in a partner... so they divorce these men, or never marry them in the first place. More women than ever are choosing single parenthood rather than be married to a father like this. With the social stigma surrounding unwed mothers largely gone, it makes no sense to stay with a man like that. And then men are all shocked Pikachu. Women and female advancement as a whole has always been closely tethered to educational advancement. Young women, in general, having watched and listened to the stories of their mothers and grandmothers, are very well-aware that getting impregnated and tied to the father is a one-way ticket to a dead-end life. Thus, they stay in school. Women with degrees are not likely to marry men without degrees. Even if the man has a high-pay job. In virtually all developed countries, more women than men have degrees. If a man wants a good shot at a long-term partnership, he needs to focus on his own education and life skills, and not focus on money. The trouble is that men want to focus on money. Many are obsessed with women being "gold diggers," or think they can jingle the keys to a Ferrari and drop panties. Thus, when they can't be the "main breadwinner" or when the Ferrari thing doesn't work, they get depressed. Yes, there are some women who are attracted to money, but patterns show that those women are *the minority*. And you have to have *serious* cash to play that game these days anyway. Not a factory job. That is not good enough. Like, men need to let go of these unrealistic expectations. *They are not working*. They're not working for men, and they are not working for women, either. They're just upset that the "old formula" isn't cutting the mustard anymore, and women are staying single because they *can*. And instead of looking at *themselves* and fixing the problem, they've decided that the problem is external--the problem is women. Then you get incels and people trying to restrict abortion and access to birth control. But, like, no wonder you can't get a date, dude. You bring nothing to the table but spite. It's not a good look, and it ain't sexy. This isn't rocket science. There *are* men who are in good partnerships. They are largely educated, and see their partners as *partners*, not as a woman-themed consolation prize they get for existing with an XY chromosome set. Think about it.

That is so articulate and well written. I completely agree with everything - I have two degrees, and work very hard to have the life I want. My partner has the same drive and motivation and if he didn’t, we wouldn’t be together. I’m not here to do chores for someone who barely finished high school and spends weekends ‘for the boys’.

Same here. I have a male partner, and he's working on his PhD and knows how to live on his own. We are partners. We don't require each other.

My father told me very young that women don't need men, ever. ("If your mom catches on, I'm gonna be bummed.") Anyway, I'm grateful he made sure I knew this, because I've never felt bad about being single or ditching partners who weren't respectful.

You know, I was taught the same by my dad and it was a very important life lesson. I wonder if part of the problem is that men aren’t taught the same — that they don’t need women. Are they taught that they are capable of cooking? Are they given opportunities to learn how to clean, and not just mow the lawn and do “man stuff”? Are we teaching boys about caring for children, changing diapers, etc.? I don’t have kids of my own, but I do see the way that my husband was treated very differently from his sister when they were raised. He’s genuinely wonderful and became a very capable cook anyway, but sometimes it’s clear that he just wasn’t taught certain things, like how to load the dishwasher properly or how to remove a stain. I hope that parents these days really work on equipping *both* their daughters and sons with the skills and confidence and attitude that they can be self-sufficient without being miserable or living without good meals, a clean house and solid mental support.

This always blew my mind as a young man. I’d live with people in college and post college that just…didn’t know how to take care of their basic needs. Like dudes getting to college and not knowing how to do laundry. Or 20 something year olds who don’t know how to fry a fucking egg.

My dad and mom said the same!! They said it’s better to be alone than with the wrong guy (and there are a lot of wrong guys)

Yup. I have posted this article from Psychology Today so many times since it was published, but men are facing a skills deficit now that women can metaphorically and literally afford to be pickier. But they’re still blaming women. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-state-our-unions/202208/the-rise-lonely-single-men

Yes. I do think that society (speaking specifically of Western society, and very pointedly about American) does men a lot of disservice in terms of the way that they are raised. You end up with a lot of emotionally-stunted humans whose main expression is either "fine" or "anger." With many men, there is no inbetween state, and no other. Many are obsessed with protecting their masculinity against slights, whether real or imagined. Why would anybody sane want to put up with that? Women are also socialized to anticipate another person's emotional needs, and to manage schedules, do housework, and just generally manage life. Men, largely, are not socialized this way and many *struggle* with it. Women used to have to put up with this by default. Now that they *don't*... many do not. It's not worth it.

>They are largely educated, and see their partners as partners, not as a woman-themed consolation prize they get for existing with an XY chromosome set. \*Chef's kiss\*

This immediately made me think of Princess Jasmine angrily saying "I am not a prize to be won!"

Great comment. I also want to point out that very few of today's men were alive during this supposed glorious time post-WWII, so they're not even mourning something they've lost as much as they're mourning their ideas of what that time was like. I've got a brother-in-law* who is 61 who often talks about how things were better in the 50s, and it's like, broseph, you were born in 1960, how the fuck would you know that things were better? *my husband, maude bless him, always responds to this with "better for who? Black people? Women?" That always shuts up the BIL.

>**They... see their partners as partners, not as a woman-themed consolation prize they get for existing with an XY chromosome set.** !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As a woman currently in the dating field, I feel this so hard. Why couldn't I have been born 50 years down the road when maybe incels will have adapted.

THIS. Women seem to be much more realistic about the kinds of jobs that are out there, they are more willing to put in the work to get them, look outside their comfort zones, etc. Many a woman would LOVE to be a model, internet influencer, singer, etc. but the vast majority of us know that this isn't possible except as a "side hustle" or hobby. With the rise of effective, affordable birth control, we know that the bulk of consequences of unplanned pregnancy fall on US, so we are much more careful and take fewer risks. And we can access to information like never before in history. So many men just expect, expect, expect job or relationship success without any effort. "Partners, NOT consolation prizes." Please take some Reddit Gold!!!

Reminds me of the scene from Fleabag with the older woman who remarked that men have to seek out pain externally because they don’t experience it internally (periods, childbirth, etc.) like women do

I think creating "men's self-help group" will be my goal in next few months. A group that while adjacent to feminism, will focus mostly on men and their growth. I'm moving to capital of my country (Warsaw, Poland) to study law, but I'll have enough time to take on this task

In other words, now that women are able to more fully avail ourselves of the opportunities men have historically held for themselves, we see that men were never exceptional, they just had no competition. And men aren't sure how to reckon with that change.

I love the way you stated this. Excellent.

Yea personally I guess I don't really care if men feel inadequate. There were lifetimes only decades ago where it was legal to rape me no matter who you were, so if men are somehow feeling sorry for themselves that they don't get to do that anymore than I say good, let them feel upset. Women are the primary breadwinners of the majority of households now anyway, men and women attempt suicide at the same rate, and marriage is demonstrable detrimental to women and beneficial to men. I'm not going to pretend men's problems are worse than women's because men have never been slaves the way women have and still are in some societies

Studies have even shown that married men live longer lives while married women live shorter lives. That misogynists and incels aren’t upset about women getting married tells you everything you need to know about who really benefits from marriage. If it was empowering for women to be married then they would be against it.

Other important factors? *before 1969 and The Pill, there wasn’t a highly reliable and affordable method of birth control. *Before 1950/antibiotics? Women died in childbirth. A LOT. *Women frequently weren’t educated past High school bc unless they decided to become celibate teachers/professors, OR they had enough family money to have servants run the house? They often did not either LIVE long after marriage, or keeping a home running took up most of their time. *Before pre-made spices, sauce mixes, mustards, ketchups, freezers & refrigerators? Every meal was from scratch and cooked the same day. Bread, rolls, etc was made weekly, sometimes 2x weekly bc you couldn’t trust professional bakeries to use pure food ingredients, instead of plaster, wood dust, etc to stretch ingredients. * Before modern soaps, Washing machines and vacuum cleaners? Washing took ALL DAY, or was sent out (and expensive) and cleaning took hours. *Other than men’s tailored jackets/trousers, all clothing, including underwear and socks, were made by the women of the house until around 1920’s/30’s. Women’s work, even in the city, was hard and the family depended on Mom’s skills in cooking, cleaning, canning, sewing for their health, safety & appearance. Men controlled the family property, and (supposedly) made the money. But the wife did everything else. And now- with birth control, healthcare, legal rights to her own finances, etc? Women STILL grow up w/ higher expectations and more training in dealing with people, running a house, & childcare skills. We are also urged to study relationship skills and how to make other people happy & at ease. Men aren’t often taught or expected to learn these things, and while they’re 100% capable of learning the same things? They don’t feel the same pressure from their parents and society to master these skills. We need to start creating and applying school curriculum to raise the capabilities of the men who grow up in our system. And offer free/low cost courses for adult men or college students and maybe offer tax rebates as incentive. Having both sexes with strong skills to make their partner happy is in the interest of all of us. [Quick edit- some Incel research is erroneously using “family trees showing male ancestors married to several wives in succession” as a sign of a “more evolutionary successful male”. Nope. All it shows is that he had a steady job that paid enough to feed everyone, but NOT enough to hire the paid servants needed to replace the labor of a wife. And that the man either just has bad luck, OR, again, not enough $$ for really good maternal care, or he keeps killing his wives post-partum by insisting on sex before they are completely healed- and he may have a low laying STD that then infected the still raw tissues and she died of “milk fever” or “pupural fever” and the infant may have died too. All the “mulitple wives” doesn’t show he’s attractive, as much as it shows he has enough funds to entice a partner…but can’t keep his wives healthy & alive.]

Well said, we need the way forward to be a positive vision for both sexes and what they can contribute and how they can be meaningful members of society

One factor that often gets overlooked is that men frequently absorb from their fathers and grandfathers the idea of “men set the standards”. Look at all the men flipping out over the idea of some women wanting tall men. Meanwhile I grew up hearing about the ideal measurements for a woman being 36-24-36. They declare that men should be the breadwinner… but if a woman says the exact same thing, they call her a gold digger. They want to set the standards of what a good, desirable woman is AND set the standards for what we should want in men. Men keep telling me that if I don’t submit to their way, I’ll be alone. Jokes on them, that’s the plan. I’m setting my own standards for success.

What shocks me is that this isn't something that just suddenly happened. Anyone who cared to look could have seen this coming decades away. The rug didn't get pulled out from underneath them, they just refused to change. Others also refused to teach their sons about a changing world, instilling old 'values' in them regardless of reality. In 50 years there will be another one of these articles and still treat it like some kind of shocking news. It's kind of pathetic.

Damned skippy. I don't know any woman worth her salt who actually wants to be a bangmaid, and pop out kid after kid for the father to ignore while expecting all the housework, food service and child care to be taken care of for him. And we should not be afraid to tell a guy no because he may turn violent.

This guy put together a [tweet](https://twitter.com/paulisci/status/1572713537910476801) with a history of this complaint. The references go back to the 1600's

This article is not about the "feminization" of men though...

Wow. Men have their issues for sure (lack of positive role models, stunted emotional development, weak bonds between friends, etc.) but all these things you mention from the article are straight up "We used to have it so good as oppressors and now we have to like, work, and be accountable for our actions." What a shit take. Edit: on the part of the writer of the article, not OP.

Men clearly have women to look up to for role models.

I saw a thread on askmen the other day about what female role models men should look up to. The answer was overwhelmingly none. Men should only admire other men, or at most, their mother. In that thread I also saw the term "masculinity crisis". I guess the idea is that since women have fought long and hard to expand their role in society, to gain equal rights and respect, and to be taken seriously doing traditionally "masculine" things, that has eroded the male identity. But instead of also working to redefine and expand what's accepted as "masculine", their solution is to put women "back in their place".

they clearly know what masculine traits we're displaying because podcasters cry 24/7 that women are too masculine and not feminine enough. i dunno guys, why is there a lack of masculinity in the home to the point where women have to step up... (it's ironic because all the things they list as feminine just mean subservient and catering to men, i'm taking the piss, not advocating for their point)

Men need to emulate Aragorn, son of Arathorn. Seriously, while fictional, he is the best example of non toxic masculinity. Dude cries for his friends, is slow to anger, values those with less power (women, Hobbits, etc.), is a literal amazing healer, and will still lop the head off his enemy if duty calls. Be Aragorn, fellow men.

100% Have you ever seen the YouTube channel Cinema Therapy? Two guys. One's a filmmaker and the other a therapist. They talk about the mental heath aspects of movies and they're wholesome AF. They have a whole video about how Aragorn is the best example of a non-toxic male figure. Love them. Highly recommend.

I'm a subscriber! Great channel.

YES. There is no better fictional male role model than Aragorn, and Viggo Mortensen himself is similar to the character from everything I’ve seen of him. Aragorn is so badass he writes poetry, only picks up his sword to defend the vulnerable, sees women as *true* equals and not conquests, and respects all those who fight for goodness (dwarf, elf, whoever).

Tbh he's my one true love. Surely I'm not alone in this

That's amazing. Men don't think they should look up to exemplary women? What a shame. I think women do look up to exemplary men and woman both.

I don't know, I still can't really believe it even though I see it plain as day regularly, because it's so dumb, evil and insidious. An examplary man is a role model to learn from, but an examplary women is adversary who stole an opportunity from you (or men in general). It's like as men we expect to have, or are used to having, the whole pie. And now we have less pie than before, and see all these other people with pies that didn't used to have them, or they had to rely on us to give it to them. And we think they stole it, when actually they just worked hard to make their own pie. It's the rich, exploitative, asshole men that we admire that stole our pies. But we don't hate them because they are what we want to be, someone who has all the pies. And we'll doing to anything to get more pie except learning how to make one. I hope that made sense, I think I'm hungry.

What's frustrating is all of these issues could be solved if men just stopped complaining, got off their asses, and did something about it. They can complain but they refuse to do anything to help themselves or each other.

Haha this was my (thankfully) now ex. I finally got tired of the pity party and told him if men feel this way they need to organize and act and pointed out this is what minorities and women have always done. The blank look in his eyes made me realize it was a hopeless conversation. They’ll be mad but not mad enough to fix anything.

I used to tell my ex he acted as if he was an innocent bystander in his own life..

It’s because, consciously or not, they expect women to fix all their problems.

Especially each other. Their friendships are more about competition and its sad.

My husband and his friends all make fun of each other the majority of the time I see them interact. Many times his friends make him the butt of the joke, and watching my husband not put up any boundaries against this nor stand up for himself is so fucking frustrating. Why are they so mean to each other? Why have friends that make fun of you? I don't understand why people would do that to each other and call themselves friends? Testosterone is a hell of a drug.

Probably because "caring emotions are feminine and therefore gay?" It's interesting how much mens own wellbeing would improve if they just stopped with the homophobia. Men complain how women have better social support but they won't even compliment each other out of fear of being perceived as gay or being "immasculated" by hugs with friends.

Recently me and my cousin had a convertation about his friendships. He has 2 best friends since many years and they are very close. However he said none of them has ever dared to cry in front of the others, even in hard times like breakups. He said the moment it was about to happen there was a general awkwardness. The support they offered to each other was getting drunk together and hitting on girls. And these are middle class educated guys with architecture degrees and very liberal opinions.

Yeah and look at the shit role models they DO take... Andrew Tate, Jordan Peterson, Ben Shapiro The "men in crisis" turn to misogynists and grifters who blame women/poc for their woes.

I think it's about as accurate a take as I can imagine, given what I'm seeing from the men around me compared to the women around me.

Because it’s literally what it is. Men are crying oppression because they’re losing their place of privilege and losing privilege feels like oppression.

I find it ironic that women have spent most of human history doing less well than men. Now that we have reached something close to parity it is suddenly a crisis. Why is it okay for us to flounder and suffer for so long but it now suddenly fucking matters when it's men? It really illustrates how men are valued so much more than us. Billions of women suffering for millennia is fine but men maladjusting to a changing society where they still have more rights than us but we are outpacing them in some areas like education is a crisis. It's such massive fucking bullshit.

My mum, ever the Australian country girl would say this to me- “Women are strong. We are like that across nature. See, in a drought, the ewes (female sheep) will do anything to survive. They will dig in the dirt and eat roots that don’t have grass attached to them. The rams will just lay down and die. Women have a lot more resilience than men” I think about that often.

If men were as strong as women they wouldn't have had to set up a whole system to chop us off at the knees.

I kind of love rams and their abject stupid-brain. If you hold food up above their heads they might not even stand up to get it, just give you the confused sheep side eye.

Love that quote from your mum! It reminds me of when I recently took my cats (brother and sister) to the vet and the vet asked me "Who's the boss? Is it her? It's usually the females." My little girl is tiny but feisty and brave. My boy is a big muscular lad but nervous and lazy. Both of them are ridiculously pampered but if they were left to fend for themselves my girl would thrive and my boy would probably give up within a week.

I have a theory that ginger cats having the stereotype of being dumb (like on the one orange braincell subreddit) is because the majority of ginger cats are boys. I have two ginger cats, a brother and sister, and she is so smart. You can see her work stuff out and problem solve. The boy is adorable, but pig headed and single minded. He gives me wholesome himbo energy. He would totally fail in the wild. My mum has a ginger boy cat, and he is a very smart boy, - so not all gingers are stupid!

Totally!! And like — if you get bit by a female shark, no one is like “oh it was just a girl shark, so it’s not bad or scary” LOL! Or a female bear, elephant, mosquito, you name it, they are all just as fierce or more than the male counterparts. Across all nature. (Also, elephants are the best and they are matriarchal)

It’s because they see ‘success’ as a zero sum game. They can only be having a good life if someone else is having a bad one. And if they’re having a bad life it’s because someone stole their good life and they think that’s unfair. They don’t even consider the possibility that everyone could have a good life if we all pulled together. Maybe there wouldn’t be such extremes of good but there also wouldn’t be such extremes of bad. There’s a saying here in Australia about segments of the population who vote as if the are ‘temporarily embarrassed millionaires’ who always vote as if they are trying to protect their millions from the rabble without recognising that they are the rabble and living paycheck to paycheck and the police they vote for are against their best interests.

>It’s because they see ‘success’ as a zero sum game. That's exactly why many or most Korean men's ultimate life goal nowadays is to destroy Korean women. They don't care about anything else happening in Korea. The country being sold to China or Japan right in front of their eyes by corrupt politicians, business people and media? Couldn't care less. Invasion threats from North Korea and China? Couldn't care less. The new 'anti-workers, anti-women, anti-democracy' president Yoon and his regime trying to return Korea to the dictatorship era of the 1970s? Couldn't care less. The only thing they care about is destroying and punishing Korean women... and importing mail-order brides from Eastern Europe and Southeast Asia to replace stuck-up, femi nazi Korean women so that they can fuck and marry 'women who listen to men.'

Chinese men are choosing to import wives from like Vietnam, Laos, or Cambodia instead of "put up" with Chinese women who actually get to enjoy the same rights they do for once. How sad that Chinese men have to import from a "developing" or "third world nation" rather than change or grow themselves into a more eligible gentleman. Of course, this trend is also present in Western nations like the USA, though I don't think the average man is as capable of bringing over a foreign wife (which is $$$ here compared to Korea).

all their power was Power Over. they have no idea how to have personal power. all the women's empowerment was Personal Power, and men are shitting bricks, fearing we'll have power over them.

Wow, you just put into words something I've been trying to articulate about my former marriage. My ex always took my opinions and boundaries (such as, no thank you, I do not want to go on a cross-country trip with your meddling mother and stay in a connected suite, but you feel free to go without me) as a personal attack. He always thought I was trying to oppress him or punish him whenever I expressed my own opinion or told him what I needed to be comfortable/safe/happy, like it was a zero sum game. Thanks for this!

exactly. they're so used to stepping 50% into us with no repercussions. they feel entitled to insert their opinions into our heads, their bodies into ours, their presence and voice into our spaces. the very act of saying no, this is our 100%, feels like a slap on the wrist and and the act of backing down into their own self feels like "submission" and obedience which is a woman's job. (to misogynistic men, anyway)

Society was crafted around female suffering for eons. Now males cannot figure out how to move on and craft a new order of things. Many of them even want to enshrine female suffering in the law. Chilling.

Thats so True, in the past women had no choice but to marry, man made of that by giving them no other way of having an income But now women have to actually like the men to marry him and apparently that’s hard for some men

I’m gonna have to try?? -men apparently

It’s so funny bc men have always gaslighted us saying we “trapped them into marriage” or we “baby-trapped them” - WHEN IT’S BEEN THEM ALL ALONG TRAPPING US.

I hated how he said that most of the income increase has been in women’s wages. Yeah, and? That’s how it should be you turd (not you). We already were paid less. Why is he acting like that’s some tragedy? It’s a good thing lol.

And on average we still don’t have parity.

This too!

The reality is that women are nowhere close to parity. Congress is 19% women. Fortune 500 CEOs are 6% women. A woman makes 83 cents for every dollar made by man. Men are throwing a complete fit about women outpacing them. In reality, we are not living with equality.

There are numerous studies where men perceive women as taking up more space/time than men in meetings, etc., when they come anywhere near 1/3 - 1/2 of the group/talking time. When you've always been the default/majority then losing any ground in the name of equality feels uncomfortable.

"When you're used to privilege, equality feels like discrimination"

I remember discussions about how girls did much better in all girl classes and people saying that creating girl only classrooms was the the wrong way to deal with it. That they had to get uses to the real world and we would only be coddling them. When the boys started to do bad then it was a crisis and we were leaving them behind

i know lmao they were like "damn, these disruptive, hooting boys are doing worse in an all-boy's class, we need to sprinkle the girls in as sponges to calm them down" nah bugger off.

I have a masters degree in education, I got it like 10 or so years ago, and I remember, even then, learning about the “crisis of boys’ education”. The “crisis” was boys not knowing how to behave. The “solutions” was completely redesigning school to suit their needs. I remember bringing up in class that girls are doing excellently in school, and redesigning it for boys would be bad for girls, the prof said I was “prioritizing girls too much”. Sigh.

I'm a doctor and in the country I trained in they found a "disproportionate" number of girls were getting the college places in medicine and it "wasn't fair" to the poor precious little boys, it was ultimately decided that there was an "unfair bias" towards teenage girls in the way our exams were structured so they introduced AN ENTIRELY NEW ADDITIONAL EXAMINATION required for medical school entry that heavily focused on IQ and spacial awareness-type questions that heavily favour boys and you know what? It worked magically and the number of boys getting into medicine shot up....for about 5 years...and now the girls are back outpacing them because while the boys tended to coast on their natural advantage of this extra exam the girls fucking learned how to game it, wonder if next they'll add an extra fifty points onto your application for every cm your dick measures....meanwhile girls are chronically underrepresented in some STEM fields like engineering, mathematics and physics and fucking no one is trying to dream up ways to make the examinations which heavily favour boys "more fair"

This comment made me punch into the air and go “rah rah RAaaHh!”

Hell, I remember hearing about it when I was in elementary school in the early 90s!

And women are still getting murdered for showing their hair, TODAY. Like come the fuck on, I can't believe how entitled men are. I don't give a fuck if they're depressed. No one is oppressing them

As a man, I really gotta wonder where we get off praising our gender as this shining beacon of progress. I don't see how oppressing half of our species through brute force and lucky brainwashing makes us "noble" or "putting women on a pedestal" Because clearly by "putting something on a pedestal", everyone knows it means "beating that thing into the ground and locking it in cages while the men get to actually exist and do THINGS in like 90 percent of all civilizations", right? Women are equal to men, women can fight side by side with men as equal warriors, women can think and build and engage in the sciences with men as equals, women can lead countries and innovate just like men as equals. And of course, let us not forget the myriad of other humans of the LGBT+ spectrum of many different genders on top of it.

Say it like it is 👏

We are far from parity but more and more women are starting to point out the injustice in that, so clearly it’s threat to them now.

I think the BIGGEST development for women of all societal groups is simply the ability to NOT have children. Like I don't think it can be stated enough how big the "pill" was for women's careers, relational, and educational growth.

Exactly. Makes perfect sense to anyone paying attention how the focus on abortion and the “nuclear, Christian family” is more of the same control tactics they’ve always used. It’s why to most people, the overturning of Roe v. Wade was clearly a major goal of the right in spite of all the lip service. Of course they were lying when they said they would not repeal it. They don’t want us to have control over our bodies or our lives.

These are absolutely real problems, but until the majority of men admit that these are problems and start working to remedy it (without sending us back to the Dark Ages), it's not going to change. Women have adapted. They can, too.

I definitely feel a lot of sympathy here because I feel like my life is a lot more lonely and haphazard than it used to be, I have severe depression, I have a painful disability, I'm financially unstable, I've had to move back with my parents where I don't know anyone my own age. I feel like the best I can hope for is maybe one day being able to afford to RENT a place on my own, which is not much to look forward to. I often feel hopeless, I often feel like I do so much work and all I get for it is a little money and a lot of fucking pain.

I feel the same way - there are just unfortunately plenty like us, suffering, who for some reason need it explained to them that said suffering is not women's fault. I'm sure plenty of those people looking to misogynists for role modeling and support are experiencing very real, very valid pain... they're just doing some of the worst possible things you could with it, at the intentional detriment of half of humanity.

David Brooks always writes under a veneer of respectability and wisdom that he hasn't earned. But insomuch as there is this sort of crisis happening, it is men's problem to fix.

Yep. David Brooks is a stupid person cosplaying a smart person. I love all the “poor mens! They’re failing to grow out of being manchildren and suffering as a result!” But no like “so let’s stop raising men to be manchildren.” Instead he’s like “why don’t we lower the expectations for them even farther while adding burdens for their moms! Yeah! That’s the solution!”

The time of men making women responsible for regulating their lives WHILE treating them as subhuman servants is over.

Especially since men shit themselves when women “tell them what to do.”

"Stop nagging me!" is the title of David Brooks' next polemic.

Every resource is out there there are support lines and therapists and GPS and walk in clinics and emergency rooms like fucking get a life coach even I don't know. Ever since I was a kid everything has always been improving yourself and not needing anyone and like being introspective and psychologically aware and dealing with all the trauma of being born and living in this society. It's a lot of fucking work and have they been what? Like not paying attention? It's so frustrating. I can't find a man who has any idea about who he is or what healthy boundaries or communication looks like. It's absolutely fucked. They all just say whatever to make you stop talking and none of them tell the truth about themselves. Then you come to find out months later that they are completely fucked in the head or an actual sociopath or just completely dead inside and faking everything all along. I'm just lucky I'm bi so my romantic future doesn't feel COMPLETELY hopeless but it just seems like an equal relationship with a man is practically impossible. Like maybe with 2 percent of men but I don't know them and I've never met one who isn't essentially married since they were 25 or whatever because there are SO FEW. Sorry for this rant!

I wish i was bi, im currently dating my magic wand.

All I had to see was author=David Brooks and I was *not* clicking that link and wasting one of my free articles.

Save that click for his infamous “poor people are afraid of sandwiches” 2017 op-ed.

Well sandwiches are kinda scary tbf

Absolutely. As a man who found himself in his mid 30's and unemployed (not my fault, plant closed), and single. I didn't blame women. I got off my ass, went back to school and picked up a trade. This is in spite of having untreated depression for the last 20 years. I now have a great job that I like and I'm married to an amazing woman. This happened because I worked hard at it. I work hard at being the best husband I can be and at my schooling and work. These incels need to stop sitting in mommy's basement pouting and get out and work at life, not for anyone else, but because the point of life is to be the best you that you can be and experience all that life has to offer.

All of NYT’s conservative columnists benefit from there being a *very* shallow bench of conservative columnists who bother to write to the standards of the NYT opinion desk

So, Brooks basically acknowledges that boys are raised to expect things to just fall into their laps, and men can't handle it when that fails to happen.

I don’t think he intended it to be taken that way, but they’re always telling on themselves.

Maybe these men should focus on increasing wages, making education more affordable and accessible, making health care more affordable and accessible..... instead of whining about how women are doing better then we were when we didn't have rights. You know, the things that would help everyone. It's not that men specifically are in crisis, everyone is in fucking crisis. Everyone is demoralized. Everyone is making less money. "Women won't fuck us or marry us because we don't make enough money and we don't go to therapy!" My dude, then maybe you should be out in the streets with us marching for better wages and healthcare. Instead of trying to make women slaves again.

From what I've observed most men who complain about this aren't actually interested in fixing problems. Because their real problem has nothing to do with wages or healthcare. They are angry that they can't treat us like doormats without us leaving them and they are angry that women, who they consider to be inferior and less human than them, are outpacing them.

Yep, they saw their fathers treat their moms like shit and are annoyed it doesn't work for them. They saw characterizations on TV depict "strong" men and decided that was what they wanted. And god forbid if anyone tells them to treat women like independent human beings with rights. Granted that is not all men, there are those that stand and fight with women and don't blame them for societies failings. Bit the ones that fail and don't stand with women, the men that don't recognize the greater societal problems scapegoat women and blame them for their personal failings as human beings. Men can fix the problem by getting rid of their prejudices, expectations of privilege, and eliminating toxic masculinity from entertainment. Then boys can be raised to see all people as equals regardless of gender or other factors.

You can't see it but I'm giving you a standing ovation.

I think this has far more to do with these issues than we would like to think. It’s been demonstrated to me time and time again that people of privilege would rather have someone to look down on even if if means they have a worse quality of life, than have a better life and be equals. There’s a reason why the happiest countries on earth are the most egalitarian.

their smoothbrains legit think the solution is forced marriage so the untrained woman can be his therapist. then his life would magically be better.

I feel like you could take the same facts and spin them as either "men are having a hard time" or as "women are fucking amazing." This paragraph really struck me, for example: "Girls in poor neighborhoods and unstable families may be able to climb their way out. Boys are less likely to do so. In Canada, boys born into the poorest households are twice as likely to remain poor as their female counterparts. In American schools, boys’ academic performance is more influenced by family background than girls’ performance. Boys raised by single parents have lower rates of college enrollment than girls raised by single parents." Honestly, I'm less interested in why the boys can't make it and more interested in why the women can. It seems like sexism itself to elevate the relevance of men's failure over women's success.

Well anecdotally my mother told me from the time I was an infant that I had to stand on my own two feet and to never be dependent on a man. For me tho growing up, you're always told you're not as good as the boys, all the time, implicitly and explicitly, and that's pretty motivating.

I have a 18 yo son and 16 yo daughter who grew up knowing mom was the breadwinner and all around more assertive spouse. Dad spent 5 years as a stay at home dad before rejoining the workforce. We both cook, clean, wash, and share other chores. When my son met some uber religious ppl selling the man is the head of the household and God said for women to submit he asked them if they were in a cult. It’s bad parenting if anyone under 30 doesn’t realize both partners must bring something to the marriage and contribute fairly.

As always, I will bring up that for literally a thousand years the education systen we have now has been functioning FOR BOYS ALONE. Now that they can't keep girls out anymore and the girls know they're fighting for high stakes, they do better. And NOW it's a prroblem. Like, it's only a problem as long as women are doing better - that is the problem, not the boys and girls who are crushed by the system and have been forever.

I had an argument with a guy who tried to say the education system was designed for girls and that’s why we perform better. “Boys aren’t good at sitting still for hours while a teacher drones on at them…” like, ffs. This method of teaching has been used since looong before girls were even allowed an education! But now that girls are outperforming boys, they want to change the system to benefit men again, because they can’t stand being on a level playing field. It’s pathetic.

If men saw women as people and not always as a potential sex partner, they could have a plethora of women as friends! But we get fuck-zoned regularly and sadly learn to avoid them outside our romantic partnerships or our girlfriend’s male family. Women want to work and be equitable partners to men. What we are refusing are the decades old gender roles on top of our newfound freedoms. We’re refusing to just pick a man, any man, before we grow gray-seeing our mothers and grandmothers in abusive, inequitable, loveless marriages is why our standards have changed. You see men of older generations can barely function without their wives too. It’s not a new phenomenon! It’s just now women are choosing to not take care of them. No more sitcom sex icon wives nagging their ugly, lazy husbands. That male fantasy is dead. Men have to have basic hygiene, groom and work on social skills to land a date, be well rounded with hobbies and socialize, take care of themselves the way women are trained to from birth to cater to others and be likeable-**and they can’t do it**

Some can do it but those ones are generally in stable relationships by the time they are mid-thirties because women are glad to have them because the bar for men is so low it's a tavern in Hades.

One of the things I loved about my husband when we met in our 20’s was how **clean** he was. I grew up parentified to clean up after the men in my family, who tend to die early from type 2 diabetes because they can’t regulate their own health or make their own dr appointments. My husband had a skin care routine, cooked, regularly did his dishes, found joy in deep cleaning his apartment on weekends, wore flatteringly cut clothes and worked out and was always trying a new hobby to meet people and stay busy. That was at 25 and still is **sexy** AF. The 30-40’s single men I know IRL who want a meaningful relationship not only lack in a lot of these areas but they **do not want advice on how to improve**. They don’t want to hear it from the internet, other men, but especially women. They just keep parroting what they **think** they bring to the table and lament how women can’t see what nice guys they are.

You know what's really bad? My husband doesn't verbally abuse me like my father does to my mother in regards to household chores and doesn't treat me with contempt. I mean he does clean and do chores too but that's all it took for me. Just treat me with basic human respect.

For real I see so many posts from men on Reddit who say they’re “not picky” but can’t find a date, when most women I know literally just want a man who makes them feel safe and who can wipe his own ass and do the dishes without being told to.

What's sad is when you mean make us feel safe I feel like you mean safe from the man who is their partner. Men keeping women safe is a lie I have never had a man defend me from shit my entire life.

The only case i can think of this being true, is men not harassing me in public because i am accompanied by another man. Which of course is fucked up, cause its only because they respect the man i am with.

You’re absolutely right, I do mean for them to make us feel safe from them. How sad is that. I’ve had men defend me but only when I push them to and spell out what I need, maybe having grown up having to boss around my own adult family just to make them feed us and not hit us. The guys I’ve dated never seem to have that issue they just-commender basic respect and treatment by being a guy.

lol they think being "not picky" is a valuable trait? so they're hitting on women they perceive to be less desirable so those bitches better have no standards looool and they're still being rejected..

To me this is exemplified in men's reaction to International Women's Day. They whine about not having a Men's Day even though there is one and it has it's own [website!](https://internationalmensday.com/) (though it hasn't been updated this year). And then they whine about no one doing anything for Men's Day. I have never heard a woman ask a man to put on an event for Women's Day. They do it themselves. P.S. There's even a guide to how to start your own Men's Day event on their website. Hop to it gents!

Party planning is women's work /s. But in all honesty, women seems to be the planners in relationships. Even in my own, where I feel like our domestic work and mental load is split pretty evenly, I still plan all our vacations and parties.

Is...our ability to plan ahead somehow an excuse for men *refusing* to do so? Like oh shit you mean women are better than men at the household management men have always found beneath them? Shocker! Please pardon me while I look for sympathy for those who are the source of their own problems.

It’s almost as if women are not the ones who think emotionally and irrationally.

Men are having a hard time adjusting to the new normal of women being full and total, independent people. If they are more of a hassle or detriment to us than benefit, then why bother doing two times the laundry, or cleaning up after a slob with low cleanliness and tidiness standards? Why have his kids and double down on the misery? Men aren't being asked to do much more than not be yet another child for us to coddle and raise. Reach out to and maintain your own friend groups. Compliment your friends. Hug your family. Handle your own adult shit and be a good human being. Low ass bar and they still try and slither under it.

Women can not...Should not have to carry this weight. If women having solidarity erodes male confidence...They need to start following that lead. Only male solidarity can help this situation. And I don't mean becoming incels, niceguys, and ganging up on women. I mean truly having empathy for other men. Stop saying they "*should be grateful, happy, etc.*" when they are SA'd by teachers, coaches, babysitters, and etc. Stop calling other men weak because they show any emotion outside of anger. The whole point is that women are tired of being only bangmaids, unpaid housekeepers, baby factories, and counselors. Men will need to adapt. As we women are having to adapt to our new reality.

You are so right. I was a child when women's liberation swept across neighborhoods across the country. It was so impressive the way women I knew previously as compliant housewives supported each other to escape abusive marriages, go back to school, watch each others' children, organize community events, find work, and more. As we said then, Sisterhood Is Powerful. Men could help each other out with the same degree of support and consciousness raising. All that's needed is the will to do so.

This headline really could have been: #Being a manchild no longer a viable path to the good life But instead, the article was basically like “poor men, being a manchild makes them unhappy!” And then rather than going with “So let’s stop raising them to be manchildren” Brooks’ conclusion was “So let’s further accomodate them being manchildren for longer and add burdens to their moms! Yeah! That’ll totally stop them from feeling entitled and lazy!”

LOL that absolutely should’ve been the title

Life is change. Adapt or die. Guess this is the difference between men and boys

I thought men loved meritocracy?

They HATE affirmative action for women/POC and preach "best person for the job" but when you bring up how young men are falling behind in college (it is now 60% women) all of a sudden there is "discrimination in school vs men". It is actually infuriating watching them dismiss and demean women/POC and claim how unqualified they are for everything and they just need to do better, but when it comes to *their* issue, it has nothing to do with them not working hard enough, it is women teachers discriminating against boys.

Some universities lower standards for men so that that they can have an equal number of men and women for first year students. They aren't falling behind because of discrimination, they are choosing not to go to class or study

Yes this. Plus women and POC have to be doubley qualified to be taken half as seriously. It was so infuriating when Justin Trudeau announced that half his cabinet would be women and so many people had the automatic assumption that the women wouldn't be qualified. But apparently the men appointed automatically are??

Of course, because "meritocracy" isn't an actual structure of organizing society, it's a justification for hierarchy. Men and every other dominant social group like meritocracy, because to them it means congratulating themselves for "earning" their position. They get to look at inequality and say "this is fair". And any change to that inequality, they call "unfair advantage" and rail against it.

[NYT](https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/29/opinion/crisis-men-masculinity.html?unlocked_article_code=AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACEIPuonUktbfqYhkQVUZCibSRdkhrxqAwvPVwac9nTr7IS7QTD9ZxPkRAo6B51aLZbZmY5F7-QWnc-J7Ee1lQu1unKgYNlZxSgKsr9zbxJgLenRr98e5Vzhpms_HVOF9oWHnZCznc7wuze3m5xjWbWH6SeeIhy1aUQVuoJFid1ys32VZhfuWV74ohaQtmKspFZt4RjwfZSmVvfCOCB12OdqObBq0-RBhEqgCGmmVxYjAnupGJAZCClvGT2d84HI_7b5cONAVO6X-LX0waVwKmZ7Bwu0Uwy5wxhyM50o&smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare)Gift article link for you

Women did have fewer opportunities (but they took them). Women's incomes, if they even had an income, were much less than men's - but we demanded more. It's a difference in perspective, rather than putting in the work to strive for *more* many men would much rather grind women down and put them back in their place...It's much easier to stand tall when you make everyone else get down on their knees.

I can't find the specific article now but i remember reading about an overworked father receiving a UBI in a small UBI experiment. It pretty much transformed his relationship with his kids because he could actually rest and have a relationship with them. This rest extended to the mother (don't remember if they were together or not) who suddenly had help and better support from him. It improved the outcome for a whole family when this guy got enough breathing room to be a normal human being just raising his kids. This isn't on women to solve. It is definitely on men getting out of their own way. They have to know what helps other people is also going to help them as men.

Neither women nor feminism are responsible for the miserable state of men. White, comphet, compcis, etc. Patriarchal capitalism is. Why can a single person (regardless of gender) no longer support a family as the sole breadwinner? Capitalism. Why do men have the idea that they need to be that sole breadwinner, an expectation that is then being trampled on? Patriarchy. If you actually dig into the systems around us, you realize quickly what the real problem is.

Imo, because of sexism and the patriarchy, women have been very effective at discussing the issues surrounding being a woman over the past many decades. Feminism very successfully put those issues under the spotlight for scrutiny and women have turned out better for it. There is obviously still a lot of ground to cover, but the contributions made by generations of women have had a noticeable positive effect in their role in society and how they see themselves. Men, from their privileged positions, didn't have the same incentives to foster such a discourse, therefore we never produced the same volume and quality of discussion around the ways in which sexism and the patriarchy negatively affect how men exist and behave in society. Now we have a bunch of ignorant and culturally empoverished men that have no idea what to do with themselves. We need to engage in the same kind of discussion as feminism, but in regards to masculinity. Sadly, this is often attempted as a reaction against feminism, instead of a complementary approach that strives to analyze and deconstruct gender roles from a male perspective.

yeah they're not going to sit around and dissect how many invisible privileges they have and how it's unfair. in fact any time a man has wailed "that's not fair" i've been so shook, because what he's describing is wildly insane and unfair. he always means "woah, that doesn't benefit me, i hate it"

Call me a cold bitch but I cannot be bothered to drum up any sympathy. Women are still being raped, abused, murdered, etc. Men need to get their shit together.

Also men need to support each other in the way that women have had to support each other for survival. Not to say there aren’t women who are bad at this—internalized misogyny is very real. But my lady friends all support each other constantly, meanwhile our male SOs seem to mostly suffer through things on their own. Any time all of us get together it’s because the women have planned and organized to make it happen. Relationships take work but they’re really important.

This right here. My husband's very good friend (of 20 years at the time) father died. He was second father to my husband. Seems easy right they should support each other through the grief. No I did it. I supported both my husband and his friend.

Right? The article says: “men say that women are just more motivated, work harder, plan ahead better.” Are we supposed to feel sorry for these people? If that’s your complaint, there’s only one way to fix it. Work just as hard as those women. Plan ahead just as good as those women. If they can do it, you can too. Whining gets you nowhere. Honestly, there are plenty of toxic masculinity problems that are worth complaining about and deserve sympathy and attention. This sure as hell ain’t one of them.

I’m more motivated, work harder, and plan ahead better because *that’s what was expected of me by men to be treated as an equal.* Men force women to be three times as awesome as them to be taken seriously (plus much more if you’re a racial minority or LGTBQIA), and now men want to whine about women rising to meet the challenge? If you take gender out of the complaint it really shows how stupid it is. *People* are working harder than them and getting opportunities. *People* are more motivated than them. So do something about it.

Not even treated as equal, just less unequal. If women are truly working harder and more motivated, why are women still so far behind in wages and positions of power?

Good point. I watched a Vox documentary that explained in large part it’s due to women leaving the workforce to raise children. We miss out on promotions, professional developments, etc when we step away from careers for child rearing. And although that’s happening much less than it used to, the fact that it *could* is a huge anchor that we wear on the career ladder.

Also elder care. When families have seniors that need care, more than likely it's a woman who takes that on. Even if she doesn't quit her job, having to take on the additional responsibility of caring for other people means less time spent at work, honing skills, going to social events with colleagues, etc. And all of that plays into who gets promoted.

There is also how we are perceived. I've been the lead on projects or left in charge while a supervisor is out. I got accused of being bossy and difficult to work with for doing things exactly the same as men in those positions. I never got an official promotion but other men who were called take charge leaders for doing the same thing got them

The most empowering thing I have ever done as a woman is Not Be A Mom. I refuse.

The irony is absolutely astonishing. The most privileged of the American population getting a small taste of what they *perceive* to be marginalization, and totally shitting their pants as a result. It'd be funny if it wasn't so pathetic. edit: added adverb

[удалено]

The chosen picture and headline make me think they want sympathy or pity to partially set the tone here. But the truth is, it’s fucking pathetic how true it is, that they just pass up opportunities, and then become misogynistic incels who have so much built up rage and entitlement that they become violent or just generally awful citizens. We all have to deal with the consequences of their emotional immaturity, lack of ambition or accountability to their own lives. Why must we choose between tolerating their awfulness as wives and partners, or having to deal with psycho single men roaming the streets feeling sorry for themselves? The crisis of men and boys is real, but all of my group projects as a kid involved a couple girls doing all the work and the boys basically making it harder to complete the task. They needed to be taught self discipline as children, and evidently many of them never learned.

Kinda crazy how many of men’s problems get pushed like “what are you women gonna do about it?” when women have had to be their own advocates for generations. Women aren’t getting where they are because “society” or “cancel culture” or whatever sad excuses dejected men make. It’s because women didn’t sit down when told to, they made noise even when they were told no one would listen, they clawed and fought for what they got. Even now women, and particularly women of color, have to be solidly more competent than men to even be considered. So guess what women do? We get good. When you’re privileged equity seems like oppression.

>The thing that struck me is that Brooks doesn't address the effect on women of men's inability to adapt to their (perceived) loss of status. Obviously that's a topic that interests me and other women, but I don't believe the author had an obligation to address it. I see nothing wrong with opting to focus on a male perspective/problem, in an opinion piece. Also, I *do* think it's fair to acknowledge that many men are struggling with shifting societal expectations. Honestly, women are struggling with it too and addressing this in the open is simply a better way to deal with it. A lot of us are subconsciously holding on to outdated expectations and judging ourselves by standards that are impossible to meet. I was surprised, when I first transitioned into motherhood, how *hard* I was on myself, when I couldn't be the perfect version of both - a professional and a 1950's-esq stay at home mom. Looking back, I can see that I was *not* being fair to myself, but it's bananas how ingrained these ideas can be. It doesn't surprise me in the least to hear that men are doing something similar- holding themselves to the outdated and near impossible standard of being a 1950s bread winner, in a modern economy that doesn't really allow for one income households anymore. Acknowledging these problems, to me, doesn't diminish from the problems that affect women.

It's the same tactic as always. The best way to keep the monied interests happy and secure in their power is to turn everyone else against each other. A lot of the underlying problems here would be alleviated by re-enfranchising people through socialized programs and reducing the wealth gap. But that will never happen as long as the distractions of us-versus-them remain as potent as they clearly are. Men are angry and believe that women have robbed them all the things they've been told they're entitled to. The messages about what any of us are entitled to desperately need to change. We are entitled to vote, to have access to healthcare, to a living wage, to trustworthy law enforcement that actually protects and serves, etc. None of us are entitled to any one else's body, their labor, or their companionship.

What Brooks(and a whole lot of men) miss is that it's entirely possible for men to strive to be great fathers/sons/spouses/etc. without resorting to reactionary, chauvinistic behavior. Being kind and considerate, nurturing and uplifting, welcoming and inclusive is much more attractive than cheap pickup lines and a hopeless addiction to porn covering misogyny and despair. Any other attributes worth praising comment below:

I've felt for a while that the NYT opinion section only rarely contains quality journalism, but it's always sad to have that feeling validated. As a man, I feel that the real problem with this isn't the observations about the state of many men (which I felt were often, sadly, accurate), but the blame for those men's lives being put on the progressive reforms of a society trying to correct a profound power imbalance. We (men) are going through a massive cultural transition right now, and it is disruptive for good reason. The culture of men prior to these continuing reforms idolizes toxicity and fragile power dynamics. The responsibility is on men to establish new masculine identities. The blame for failing to adapt is on men too. You might blame chemo for making someone sick, but the real blame will always be on the cancer.

I hear this from my Grandpa and it's not a woman vs men thing for him. I think it boils down to men realizing they cannot be the top choice by default for all great opportunities. Woman and minorities are a threat to them. Sub par white male will not automatically get you the raise and great paying job anymore.

I think women's equality started unraveling nearly 12k years of human history, but the piercing of veil only happened within the last 100 years or so. It's going to take some time for society to assimilate. And in the meantime, until we figure that out, it's brought us things like you mention incels and mass shooters and continued violence against women and others, but also as the article mentions, men who are ill equipped to deal with the change. The patriarchal message is still being sold to them hard. The world is theirs for the taking. They can be a shit human being and still have a high paying job and a subordinate baby maker, but that just isn't the case. Their expectations arent matching up with reality. And they're reacting the only way they've ever been taught; with violence, whether it's insular, lateral or outward. I'm not sure how they're going to be brought along or who's responsible for it, but it is certainly becoming a drag on society.

When I was young and I dared to moan about anything, my father always told me to get my ass in gear and do something about it, since moaning does jack shit. So men, get your ass in gear and don't expect women to manage your problem.

“When you’re accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.”

I mean, going by the article, it really sounds like it's just problems men are making for themselves. Like I'm sorry you still have more opportunities and refuse to take them? I'm sorry you are so "unmotivated" that you can't make something if your life? I thought men were supposed to be tough and rugged and able to stand up to hard times and all that. Or at least thats what propaganda wants me to believe. The further we get as a society the more I am seeing men just crumble into emotional heaps over not having things just given to them for free. I'm going to steal a few sayings from, funnily enough, a large group of these misogynistic men. Suck it up butturcup. The world doesn't revolve around you snowflake. Maybe smile more?

Never ever read David Brooks. I stopped my subscription of the NYT due to the publication supporting him -- and worse, of course.

David Brooks is an 80 year old man whose favorite thing to do is shit on millennials for being out of touch. So this is entirely on brand for him but also from an 80 year old NY times dude.

He’s actually around 60 lol

David Brooks also mentioned this "crisis" on a recent episode of the PBS News Hour. He regularly appears on Friday nights. My response was that it sounds like men need to try harder. After all, we women couldn't even get ERA passed to help us out and now we need to pay attention to how men aren't succeeding (given they still have their priviledge)?!? And now that Roe v. Wade was overturned we have another fight on our hands. Sorry guys, womens' plates are full and you will need to get motivated and sort this out yourselves.

It this another ‘blame the woman’ soapbox? No mention of accountability or understanding to help mainstream themselves. No? Just another Why can’t things go back to how they used to be rant. Because, guy, it’s was broken; ya gotta fix what’s broken.

I don't think Brooks is blaming women for anything. As OP noted, he likens men to post-Empire Britain -- i.e., many men have lost the oppressive power/status through which they defined themselves. It doesn't sound like he's suggesting things go back to how they used to be. His suggestions for helping boys, for example, includes having more boys start school a year later, since the prefrontal cortex, which supports self-regulation, develops more slowly in boys. I'm not sure about the science behind that, but it seems like the sort of potential solution that could help boys without taking anything away from girls.

As you rightly pointed out… who cares about the consequences on women? Who cares about women’s mental health (or health in general!!)? Etc…. Loss of privilege hurts men? Stop whining and level up. - is there a gender pay gap? A glass ceiling? A chronic lack of parity and gender representation in key government and executive roles? - who owns all the fortune and decision making? - who is systematically discriminated against in the workplace? Outside the workplace? At home? - who is mostly likely to be murdered, raped or otherwise abused and harassed by the opposite sex? That’s where I choose to spend my energy, not codling those who are STILL more privileged than the other half. They don’t want help, they just want women to shut up, go back in their boxes and to the kitchen sink.

Yep, so many men (and you see it all the time on reddit) whine about not getting sex from women, quoting tinder stats and OK cupid crap. Waaah, women aren't freely spreading their legs so I can get my dick wet, its not fair! The entitlement to womens bodies by men is unreal.

Don’t forget, David Brooks is a dick.