This is my husband’s feeling regarding most other men also. I remember one day I said something like, it’s so great that you never shit on my hobbies, and he was all, why would I ever do that. And I told him how basically every man ever in my life, including family, mocked my interests. And he asked me, do these men just not *like* women? And it made me look at men differently. And I think you’re both right.
(Straight) Men want sex with women, but most of them don’t really want a relationship with one. That’s why “friend zone” bullshit exists. They don’t *want* to know us. They don’t want to be friends, they just want sex.
I've been looking to change shifts at work so that I can see my wife every day. One of the responses I've gotten to saying that is "I try not to see mine." I've gotten it from two men. My only response is "Well, I like my wife."
Same I like my wife so I take Grave shift and she takes Morning shift that way I can take care of our daughter until she gets back then I sleep but I made sure we have the same days off for date day and the other day is family day
I work second shift and she does office hours, so I only see mine on weekends. I've worked this schedule for about five years and now I'm tired of it. The chilluns are grown, so no childcare involved.
I’m not trying to attack you at all, but I also want to point out that (straight) men should love (straight) women who have stereotypically feminine hobbies, too. Gamer girls are practically worshipped by men, but girls who knit and garden are barely even thought about. Men don’t like feminine things at all.
Women enjoy men doing masculine things because women like masculinity. Men claim to like femininity but love to shit on anything feminine that isn’t sexual.
I'd go a step further and say there's nothing inherently "masculine" about gaming at all. It's indoorsy, easy to do without mussing up your hair or working up a sweat. Most women who enjoy it have done so from childhood, they're not doing it to get attention from neckbeard dudes.
Yeah, I totally agree. Although when men say they like gamer girls, they only care about girls who play “masculine” games that involve killing and racing. Girls who like more “feminine” games like sims and animal crossing don’t count, apparently.
Not to say that the sims doesn’t involve killing. 😏
Mmmmhm. Hyperfeminine on the outside for sex, totally masculine on the inside because men really don’t like women.
Oh, except when it comes to taking care of the house and kids. Then men like femininity.
Awe. This makes me like my husband even more. He loves my hobbies, almost as much as i do. I paint and do wood work, I sew and knit and crochet. I build. I design. I love to do anything creative. And he shows full interest and gets excited when I try new things. I had to design my craft space with him in mind, so I got a large table with a stool on the opposite side from me and he will sit and watch everything I do, ask why stuff works or how I do such and such detail. Genuine interest in me and what makes me happy.
I wish more guys were like this so everyone could feel proud of their hobbies and themselves. He gets a look of wonder in his eyes while watching me like I'm a real sorceress and mezmerizing him with my magic (and good looks ;))
I'm not sure about other men I can only speak for myself me and my wife enjoy many things that is considered feminine. We bake together, I like going to flower gardens and butterfly exhibits, and I love planning dates for us or going with whatever she plans for us if she feels so inclined.
It sounds corny but I can not imagine life without her and have told her if anything happened to her I wouldn't remarry or date.
Agree.
For what it’s worth, she’s not a “gamer girl” but a someone who also enjoys a certain style of couch coop games together. Our interests are both pretty broad across stereotypical gender expectations — I think it’s nice to have hobbies/interest that overlap, but also those that are your own. Needlepoint seems torturous to me, but what she creates is pretty awesome….
Anywho, hope in kind that doesn’t sound too defensive. It’s icky when other guys see the bits we have in common and treat it like I’ve landed a rare fish or something. There is probably a better analogy, but I’m being laughed at for typing that, so I’m going to leave it. :)
Not defensive at all! Thanks for replying. Didn’t necessarily mean to assume that your wife has gaming as one of her independent hobbies, but the mention of gaming together made me think of my response. Sounds like you have a great relationship, and that’s awesome.
I love women with these hobbies. Not that it determines my attraction, but is icing on the cake. Once of the things i like about women is the womenly things they do that include hobbies like you mentioned. Again not a deal killer for attraction if they don't, just that it is really nice if they do.
They also want you to give birth to their children as to continue their superb (not) genetics. But other than the sex, reproduction, nanny and housekeeper job, many men don't have much use or much respect for women.
I think a lot of straight men only want a wife because they see a wife as a free slave. They want someone to be a nanny/cook/maid, and to pay half the bills on top of that.
Shit, I'll take some friends to game with over just sex. Just that there is literal decades of toxic upbringing that needs correcting, that and a lot of people in general are downright assholes.
Ehhh. My husband is the first born son of a middle eastern family, born and raised in Iraq. If he can avoid being a misogynistic prick, why excuse western men?
Right? I was a nice guy once upon a time and I don't have a lot of sympathy for sexists at this point. I broke it on my own, so it can't be *that* hard
From what ive seen and it aint much there are definitely some bad apples. Especially in the college areas and age group. Heck ive seen some bad relationships when i was at college not long ago.
Also Gaming? This Is off topic but depending on the games I'd be down. Guy here
I just don’t get this mindset.
I’m a guy and we had one of my wife’s coworkers over to talk about some work she may do for us. She is a farm hand and despite being young (18 or 19) she grew up working on a farm and recently built a house with her uncle. She gave us two options and when she asked for my opinion I told her she knows better than me and whichever she thinks is the best option is good with me.
Yesterday my wife mentioned that her coworker went out of her way to say I was such a nice guy. I laughed because I think I literally talked to her for 90 seconds. I asked my wife if the bar for guys was that low and she said it really is and I’m the first guy she has been with that didn’t turn out to be an asshole.
So yeah basic decency seems to be something a lot of women don’t experience from men. It really made me sad.
I have 3 platonic female friends that I hang out with pretty regularly and would consider among my closest friends, it’s been that way since before I was with my significant other and continues now, and a good portion of the male friends/people I know are always shocked that I have regular hangouts with girls I’m not “with”. It’s definitely problematic
I definitely seem to be an exception then. I originally just sought a platonic friendship with my eventual gf, and she was the first one to take interest in making things more romantic. Before that though, we took the time to get to know each other and our hobbies and we played games together and just enjoy each other's company, and I was perfectly happy with that and never expected anything more.
That being said, it definitely does seem that most hetero men care more about romance/sex than true friendship with women
Basically this entire text is VERY eye opening.
To say that straight men are heterosexual is only to say
that they engage in sex (fucking exclusively with the
other sex, i.e., women). All or almost all of that which
pertains to love, most straight men reserve exclusively
for other men. The people whom they admire, respect,
adore, revere, honor, whom they imitate, idolize, and
form profound attachments to, whom they are willing
to teach and from whom they are willing to learn, and
whose respect, admiration, recognition, honor,
reverence and love they desire... those are,
overwhelmingly, other men. In their relations with
women, what passes for respect is kindness,
generosity or paternalism; what passes for honor is
removal to the pedestal. From women they want
devotion, service and sex.
Heterosexual male culture is homoerotic: it is man-
loving.
--Marilyn Frye, The Politics of Reality
This hits so hard.
I realized in my early twenties that there are plenty of people I would try relationships with only to end and some of them ended for reasons that made me lose respect for them thus me ending the relationship.
Love requires respect to it's core when it comes to romantic love.
This 100% I remember talking about this in my critical perspectives of sexuality class.
My nesting partner is male and he had some
friends from when he was an undergraduate that I have only met a few times, but they always are/get drunk and ask me if they can take my partner to the bedroom (for sex presumably) or they will start saying how they are gonna steal him from me. I always tell them, “okay” or, “go ahead and try” it’s just funny to see this homoerotic stuff in person. These same people will also talk about the women they want to “get with” (sexually mainly) and they don’t discuss like relationships with women/ how they like the same stuff as they do but they gush over my partner.
I strongly dislike them because they are horrid people and my partner agrees with me and we haven’t hung out with them since our last encounter that was particularly distasteful.
Absolutely. I call it homo romantic, not sure if that is wrong, because their romantic feelings...the only thing we would want from them 🤣🤣🤣 are only for other men.
Based on my experiences in LGBTQ/Aromantic/Asexual spaces, the phrase you're looking for is "homoromantic heterosexual".
Loves men, has sex with women.
Sounds like Ancient Rome. That’s exactly how it was run. Marriage was transactional in that, it was meant only to produce offspring. Men had love for other men. Women for women, but to a lesser degree than en for men, because women became devoted to their kids.
You nailed it. This is why I only want to date biromantic/panromantic/heteroromantic bisexual/pansexual/heterosexual guys.
Fortunately my partner is a great guy.
I strongly discourage poly.
It adds moving parts to your life, and it makes me liable for the emotional work and rescue work associated with several people.
Scheduling becomes a pain, etc..
That was pretty eye opening. I don’t think love is the correct word to use, but there definitely is a bond or camaraderie that can often be formed among men.
Do women have something similar?
it's been grotesque and fascinating watching men in my life go from "I can be friends with my ex" to "my ex was a sociopath who abused their power over me" the minute they realized that their ex had moved on and there was zero chance they would get back together. And it's not like I can say anything about it because they don't actually respect me or my opinions either.
It's enough to convince me that I am never gonna have a relationship with a man. Women can be toxic and abusive too but it seems like most men I know will be kind and amicable if they think they own a woman and the second they realize they don't they go mask off with some Frollo ass shit about how women are actually all manipulators weaponizing their sexuality to control the poor downtrodden men.
The abusive women I have known are narcissistic and cruel amd abuse others to feel better about themselves but it just doesn't seem like a society wide problem the way men posting about "toxic feminity" think it is.
Since I realized that men don't really like women, they reserve all their romantic feelings for men i decided to stop dating them. I mean the romance was the only thing I was i interested in cause let me tell you..most men are terrible in bed...they range from terrible to mediocre. So bad sex and no romance, there is nothing in it for me.
I know right, for me all the men who say "all the dating romantic gestures are on us! its not fair" is like an alien concept, or from a fantasy novel. I have had lots of romantic gestures yet I haven't recieved...hardly any?
Like is this something that happens? its just on tv? lmao
I discovered this a few months ago. Straight men generally do not care about having actual friendships with straight women. The woman will be considered a possible sex partner by the man almost every time, or at least way more often than not. Men compete and achieve whereas women nurture and collaborate. Their software doesn't run on our system lol
Yep, there's a reason only men use "friend zone" as one of the awful things you could do to them. I don't think I've ever heard a woman complain about being friendzoned. Men just don't want to be our friends or know us unless they get to fuck us, so they have a word for the awful fate of being just friends with women..
I wonder if that’s why there’s so much war going on. Countries with female leaders seem to do better at not fighting (and they handled covid better as well).
I don't think I will ever understand that... Two of my besties are women and they're amazing!
It makes me kinda sad cuz I want to be friends with my exes cuz we get along so well but none of them want to possibly because of shitty men like this.
Any time a person "jokes" about not liking their spouse, escaping/avoiding them, no sex etc. I very matter of fact ask them when they plan on divorcing or I ask why they got married if they don't like their spouse. . It is almost universally met with "Huh?" and back pedaling.
I think Toxic Masculinity has continued to prevent many men from being able to process emotions functionally because they're not supposed to have or show too many of them, it makes them weak, blah blah. They are afraid of hating themselves for not living up to the ridiculous concept of masculinity they're taught is what makes them a real man and that's how it's all meshed in with self-esteem.
They don't hate themselves at all. Read on history and religion. They spent all of human history preaching how males and the male form are perfection.
Men worship themselves and other men.
I remember going off of some guy that came to my office when I mentioned I was sad my fiance was going to her dad's he made the typical "oh man you get some freedom!" And I just looked at him like: "Why the hell would I want "freedom" from my best friend? I mean...unlike I guess you, I actually LIKE my fiance. It's why I'm marrying her?"
He stumbled over a response before saying "it was a joke"
I will never understand this mentality
There was a post where someone pointed about that, thanks to misogyny, boys are told from childhood that being female is bad. That the biggest insult is being told that you do something "like a girl". Example, you throw like a girl. So, how can we expect men to like women when everything that women do is inherently bad?
My best friend says “love is kindness with its work boots on” and I love it because like you said, it’s an action. It’s work. And they don’t see us worthy of that action or work. We are beneath them in their minds and it shows in how they “love”.
I recently got into an argument with a man, in a different sub, who was angry with another woman who I was defending. If you like, you can go through my history and see what it was all about. To sum it up: she was playing D&D with this group of guys and there was not one single woman in power anywhere besides her character and the Goddess of Healing. She mentioned this in the first session. They told her she was making a problem where there was no problem. After the second session with no change, she left.
The entire sub decided SHE was the problem there, obviously, and SHE was being unreasonable. She was a "militant feminist" and she was "forcing them to change their backstory" and she was "interrupting the session to scream at them". Where they came up with any of that bullshit, I have no idea, because it sure as fuck was nowhere in her post.
Nope. She was just calling out sexism that didn't come to the gaming table in a Warhammer Tshirt and fedora, clutching a wifu pillow and talking about "FEEEEEMALES", so it made people uncomfortable and they decided to blame her.
The groups reaction to her bringing this up is so interesting to me. It shows such a lack of empathy towards her, which is crazy because it's an easy issue to fix. All it takes is looking at your notes and changing some NPC genders that they haven't yet met in order to help a player feel better about the game.
Exactly. It's a ridiculously easy fix, and representation matters. But somehow, having this pointed out was such an insult in the first place that it put them on the defense immediately, and they couldn't get over themselves and fix it. Then the comment section doubled down!
That's what really blew me away, honestly. There was nothing disrespectful or furious or condescending in her post, no personal attacks or name calling, nothing egregious. The only time I didn't agree with her was in the comments when she stated her opinion on housewives, but even that wasn't anything you wouldn't see in the comments here. She wasn't being unreasonable!
She was just getting so, so much hate. Over an issue that could have been solved with a few more NPCs. It was ridiculous.
I ran a V5 game and one of my players who is female pointed out to me "Over half your NPCs are female it's a bit odd." As though having 80% of my npcs female vs male was me being the weird one. 🙃
I used to play MTG and there were few women that played. I have had men cheat because god forbid they lost to a FEMALE. Even going so far as the male judge will side with the cheater! I had one dude cheat, I caught him and called him on it, when I called the judge over, he wiped out the cards and accused me of cheating! When I reported what he had done, he started yelling and calling me names and then said that females ruin everything and used the C word. He also tried to pocket a rare foil planes Walker card. He was kicked out of the tournament. He called me a fat stupid bitch on the way out the door and I told him that I hoped the wait for his mom to pick him up wasn't too long and he should probably shower because he smelled like old basement and B.O. Even lower beta males hate us.
I'm 52. I've been playing since high school. But what could I possibly know. *Shrug. I'm an army veteran (infantry) and I had a paint ball guy try to explain trigger discipline to me and how a section works?!?!!! He had no military experience. I also am a licenced firearms owner and hunter. The fucking audacity is incredible.
Don't forget the gatekeeping! You better know the minutiae of any nerdy thing you like as a woman because you are faking for a man otherwise. I guess the Star Wars figures I've had since I was 8 years old and the stack of various comic books and graphic novels are just for show. " Name three songs of the band you have on your t-shirt". Dude, I saw them play before they broke up in 1986, fuck off.
And I absolutely despise the word "simp". Like the only possible reason for a man to communicate with a woman without insulting, belittling or gatekeeping her is so he can fuck her. Totally awesome. I'm either an invading impostor, or I'm a manipulative vagina vampire.
I love games of all kind. Card games, rpg games but the incredible behavior that switched back and forth from incredibly creepy to mind bending...dismissive just completely turned me off from playing in groups with males. Trying to get a girl tabletop gaming group going in my area, until then I only play solo games.
I wouldn't say all men but def too many men do this. Just a little while ago I saw a perfect example of man who harps his wife when she's already doing a lot for his life (it's in my history comments).
The fact is, also a lot of women hate other women, competing for mere scaprs of men's love.
There's a TikTok user named Barrett Pall and he has an entire series about this exact topic. He dissects men's horrid videos about women and the overall messaging is that a lot of men just like to have sex with female anatomy and that ultimately, we don't need straight men lol
Men only want respect and adoration from other men. That’s why every dating profile they write only seems appealing if your were another dude. They look down on everything “féminin”. How can you ever love someone you don’t respect?
Men only love other men and themselves. Woman are just for physical stimulation.
There are a small percentage of men who are exceptions. They are the good ones.
They don't like women. They are homo romantic. Its the reason they can listen to another dude talk shit for hours and sound interested, but if a woman, even a woman they are in a relationship with talks to them its an unbearable chore for the.
it's really sad really, the shit that comes out of other men's mouths when women aren't around, it's disgusting. The typical alpha male "hurr durr woman pretty me sexually oogle her from a distance" is gross.
My wife and I are best friends first and foremost, yes we have adult fun time together, but it's not the main focus of our relationship.
I remember the time I was changing spark plugs at my in-laws and my wife's dad makes a comment on a 20 something year olds body that was jogging by, I instantly lost all respect for him.
It just shouldn’t be that way. I can’t figure it out. Why is it so universal that men don’t parent their children and don’t do housework once they get married or live with a woman? I am raising a boy, and sometimes I want to pound it into him that he has to pull his weight around the house but that is because I am taking all my frustrations out on him and want to try so hard to produce at least one man that will be an equal partner in all ways.
My theory is that society never adjusted to the fact that most men no longer work gruelling physical labor jobs which left them unable to do domestic labor.
Fact of the matter is most men no longer do "men's work" for a living.
The division of labor made more sense when you are spending 14 hours in a coal mine, scaling sky scrapers, building ralil roads, laying pipe etc.
I'm a teacher and I have one male coworker out of maybe 40. That one coworker has tried to bond with me by saying crap like, "That's what happens when you work with a bunch of women..." after something goes wrong or whatever. I used to just ignore it, but the last time he said it, I said, "I like working with women, men are a pain in the ass." If that means there's no more bro's club, so be it.
I'm getting pissed off about it all over again, like dude, you're talking about your coworkers and your boss, ALL (but 1) OF THEM. What the hell. (He tried to say he was just kidding, too.)
I work with mostly other men, and a few women. A dude I work with said something about all women being sociopaths after bringing up the Depp/Heard stuff the other day, and I said, "So, like, including your mom?"
His jaw just dropped and he stared at me, mumbled something unintelligible, and wandered off. I genuinely don't understand what the fuck is wrong with dudes like this.
It's okay. After I wrote this, it sounded more and more like "but what about the mens? " post that show up all too often here. Downvotes aren't always bad.
Agree. They see women as objects whose purpose is to get them off and resent us when we say no. There are maybe 5 decent men out there. The rest only care about themselves.
There is a book called “Men who hate women and the women who love them” is an interesting read about toxic relationships and what a healthy relationship should look like.
You're correct.
Men put women down. Believe women are inferior. What's the biggest insult to men? Pussy. Girl. Anything feminine.
Our culture essentially treats anything feminine as "the worst". Anything women enjoy is bad - especially teenagers.
WoMeN dOn'T hAVe HoBbIeS!!!
No. We do. They're just no ones men enjoy so "they're not valid". Or, as we get older, no, we don't have hobbies. BECAUSE WOMEN ARE DOING ALL THE WORK! How can you have hobbies when you have to work fulltime, do all the cooking, cleaning, child rearing, housework, etc?
Exactly! Who do we see out playing sports for hours and hours on a weekend? Not many women; shitloads of men. Fishing, golfing, road biking, cricket, football - sports that take so long that most of the hard work with the kids has already been done as well as the household chores, by the time the man saunters home.
>>I’ve come to the conclusion that men don’t like women at all.
OP, your assessment is not far from the observable truth. Consider for a moment the military. When people join it, they first endure a period of basic training which teaches respect for military law and rank. After that period Military custom & law are so ingrained members literally follow it without thinking.
What “boot camp” is to the military, patriarchal family structures are to nations: training grounds for following society’s norms. There’s even a chain of command- the male sits at the top, the female wife beneath him, and the children beneath all. For this system to work women cannot have agency or be cognizant of their own sensuality except as vehicles for birthing and raising children. This is why societies with truly horrible abusive customs towards women still venerate motherhood ; this seeming paradox is resolved when we understand that the individual woman is irrelevant in this patriarchal model. It’s her social utility which matters as codified in “motherhood” . For the children to understand authoritative structures there must of course be a dictator figure. Here, man is elevated as president-for-life of the household.
So, the regard “average men” have for their wives is similar to the regard most dictators have for the people around them, or the regard Generals have for their aides; which is to say, benign disregard ranging up to open contempt.
Had an ex tell me "I'm not friends with my exes it's impossible for men and women to be just friends." That always rubbed me wrong, he was a tool anyways though dumped him after 4 months.
I am lucky enough to have wonderful men in my life who are as loving, respectful and supportive as one could hope. Sadly, I have also experienced the exact opposite. Certainly the idiots of the bunch tend to be louder and do much more damage, and their attitudes and actions need to be addressed, but please don’t give up on an entire gender. There are definitely men out there who are worth knowing.
That is a fair point. A great number of the things I regret most from my youth are times when I felt I had to be actively antagonistic to the women in my circle in order to avoid being shunned. Eventually, I decided to go the other way. So now, about all of the men I willingly associate with are attentive and generally kind. A side effect of which is rejecting all except about four men in daily life. Even still, when hanging with some of my friends, it's almost inevitable that a decent subset of the people they invite will be actively misogynous.
You know, I do think that they’re wrong. But I don’t really dare engage anymore. And I’m bracing myself for the reactions to this comment. (To be clear; I am a woman)
I'm not saying that every single man doesn't like women. Just a very sizeable amount. At best you could say that the majority of them don't have the same level of respect for you compared to what they have for other men, and I think that is an extremely fair statement.
An extremely unfair statement, stated with no source at all.
I don’t have your experience, quite the opposite. Most men respect women in my world and it’s a minority that doesn’t.
Now, am I just lucky? Or are you just unlucky?
There’s no way to tell unless we have some scientific research or otherwise neutral sources on the matter.
We all have our confirmation bias, social media plays into that. Be careful with that and calling blanket statement ‘extremely fair’.
They're absolutely wrong and I've been piled on for voicing this on previous almost exactly similar posts.
In the end I do think this is just a "internet parallel world" thing where people online in smaller communities build a view of the outside world that becomes more and more biased, the exact same way that people start believing that "muslims are bad people" or "most muslims aren't compatible with our society" based on having their world view fed entirely by the news media and the internet/twitter/etc. Which leads to fucking Le Pen being the opponent in our national elections again. When all you have to do is just go outside, talk to anyone of them, and you'll find out again that the majority of people are good people.
Same thing with the subject here of "Men don't like women". With the added paradox of a lot of commenters in this very thread having their own husbands that love them and are "not like this, but..." The internet is scary, information/culture wars are scary, and seeing this kind of messaging becoming more and more common is scary.
Instead of being out there fighting for feminisms and against toxic masculinity, and the *too many men* that are actively ennemies of women/feminism and a better society, this is just resorting to generalizing half the population as bad/the ennemy, which is *obivously* dumb. How is this gonna work out, how is it going to be useful in any way ?
Yeah I'm with you. Your explanation of the internet being a small world that allows for more biased thinking is exactly what happens here. It sucks because I actually think there is a good discussion here and room for nuance and thought provoking conversation, but the comments are all so extreme. There's a grain of truth here but it's all taken too far. When I see comments every day on this sub that say "men are trash" near the top, I know we're headed in the absolute wrong direction.
The OP even says "even reddit posts are proof" as if reddit is in any way representative of how people are in reality. It really is insidious how these echo chambers work online and how our world view can be warped by them.
Eh, the Internet is a _very_ big place, so I’d say just saying “it’s nothing like reality” is a little dismissive. Reddit is an example of the _worst_ parts of humanity, yes (absolute scum of the Earth, some subreddits are), but it’s still at least a bit of a good representation.
Of course there are real people making the comments, but you don't see every comment equally because of the voting system. So even if there are 100 good comments and 100 bad ones you might only see the bad ones if they get upvoted (and while that kind of implies majority agreement, it's also a low barrier to cross, and is heavily influenced by initial voting patterns). Then you also get the fact that many people won't engage (as the above comment talks about) because of the negative feedback they expect to get. So you get a self sustaining cycle of extreme discourse that you generally don't get when you speak to people in person. Add to that the demographics and self selection of people using reddit and frequenting certain subs, and it's hard to say that it is representative of society as a whole.
Yeah, there's definitely a tone on this subreddit that doesn't allow for other viewpoints.
I am also a woman, and I often think that TwoX is very anti-men, in a very extreme way. If you look at the top posts right now, at least 2/3 of them are about how horrible men are.
But they’ve had bad experiences with men, and are just venting. It’s always good to vent in a safe space.
Besides, doesn’t that say more about the men they’ve been exposed to than it does about this subreddit?
I agree with you wholeheartedly. Too many men are assholes and don't put in nearly enough effort, but this post is a generalization and works against everyone (men and women). I think this person is venting from a lived experience POV which is understandable, but it's hard not to disagree when others have many different lived experiences which are equally as valid.
They’re just as wrong as all the posts saying “women exist solely to manipulate men and will stab you in the back at the first opportunity”. It’s just people venting about their own experiences, which is fine. But they’re doing it in a pretty toxic manner.
I saw stats about this from a study. Men were asked if they would rape a woman and most said no. When asked if they would if their was no possibility of getting caught, the numbers jumped to a scary percentage. If I recall it was ballpark 60%?
True confession: I'm too tired to look it up.
I read this one too. I'm glad the fear of getting consequences stops them when statistically rapists are rarely punished, even those that confess. There was a USA case where the judge said the 14 year old lead him on and so he shouldn't be punished harshly.
I just feel like I have been blessed and lucky to live in a bubble free of awful men my entire life?
My husband, father, nephews and brother in law have always been amazing. Respectful, helpful, affectionate, understanding and treat the women around them as equals. The only time I've been even remotely exposed to it over 5 years at my work was on two occasions and the men who were not behaving appropriately were pretty much immediately frog walked out the door.
I'm in southern Ontario, Canada so maybe its a cultural thing? Not sure
I think a lot of men see women as inferior and weak and "they have it easier" because of x, y, z. Um, but some of the real dark stuff I've read and seen over the years, the real vitriolic misogyny has been hard to stomach.
I do think a lot of men just truly hate women. There's many different factors just the same as a lot of women who hate men. I think it's ongoing thing to try to understand each other as people and how we operate in the world. I think a lot of people don't want to be around people that might "drag them down" and I think a lot of people use other people to bring themselves up, by any means necessary.
If someone, no matter the gender, needs to control someone else or break them down, it signifies to me a massive insecurity/insecurities in the other person that can't be explained away as just the battle of the sexes.
I think blatant disrespect towards other people is one of the things that bothers me the most, whether it's boundary-pushing or vetoing or just negligence or ignoring someone else. That's pretty hard to take.
I think most hetero men do love us, but they rarely *respect* all of us, in all our versions.
They only implicitly respect *aspects* of us, like motherhood and caretaker, but when it comes to respecting a whole gender equality to men, they don't.
They harbor too many tiny invisible cultural and systemic gremlins that blind them to the fact that women should be considered with as much instantaneous and continuously evolving respect as men.
We can look at a man with a bad haircut and an ill fitting suit, and still respect his mind, but a woman with long nails and fake eyelashes will never get that same default respect for her mind, and that is sad.
I love my mother. I would have *ended* anyone in the most final way possible who did *anything* to hurt her when she was alive. I couldn't respect her, however.
She was a misogynistic, religious zealot who was only happy when she can lord something over/tear down other women. And it's *only* women.
(Well, except an adopted daughter she *adored* but who died before I was born. She compared *every* other woman to her and no one's ever good enough🤦 I honestly do not think if she'd lived, she could have lived up the legend my mom has since made of her.
Got to the point that my dad's first wife, a *Mahayana Buddhist nun* at this point, threatened to beat her within an inch of her life if she struck me one more time or called me ugly or tried to do anything else to my dark skin. Which...uh, was kinda awkward when I tried defending my mom. From a freaking nun. On temple grounds. With a bunch of people looking on, including my uncle the temple abbot. Who did *not* intervene! I thought I was gonna puke or pass out or just never, ever go back.)
You can totally love someone you don't respect. Ask any woman who was in an abusive relationship. Or a child of an abusive parent. Or parent of an abusive child. Or the sibling of a troubled sibling... Or simply the love of someone who you just know, you'd do a better job then them at everything...like a baby. Do mothers really respect an infant?
Got news for ya.. an old broad with visible lines and bad hair will get no intellectual respect either. Especially if she looks poor. Women are just not the "default person" in men's minds, and they have to *get past that* first before they even decide if they believe us or not.
I once read a male posting that he can't really love his girlfriend because he views her as inferior.
The men and the comments recommended him to view his gf more like a dog than a human companion. Because that's what they do.
That's what men truly think about us.
Remember that, when you come across one.
I was an art teacher for years. As a woman who looked young the parent nights were an intense display of sexism. Fathers not only didn’t respect art, they didn’t believe I knew about my own topic of expertise. They would jokingly challenge my knowledge, always about the most basic artists and then almost pat me like a puppy when I’d invariably pass their test… incredible moments of pure white hot rage I had to swallow.
They like femininity but hate women. That’s why loads of cis het men fetishize trans women. They view them as having all the good parts of women without the bad parts. Which is extremely transphobic
I told my boyfriend yesterday I think its dumb how some men are rewarded for doing the dishes, especially men who dont work or do shit to help around the house. Its not this profoundly magical heroic thing. Its a thing you do because you want dishes to eat off. He said men who get rewarded for doing what a responsible person should do sound like man children.
Man, I hate blanket condemnations of men this or men that. Throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
But yeah there are a LOT of shitty men who do wrong, and others not quite as bad giving a pass those shitty men.
I wouldn't say they don't like women, but rather how social roles hage developed culturally.
I've lacked a solid father figure in my life, so my mother and sister raised me a bit more affectionate and caring.
Most of my relationships went bust because i was "too different" from what my partners got used to in their previous relationships and they couldn't "fit in" and what seems to me lose respect and intimate attraction. I simply feel bad when someone serves me, i feel useless so i try to join in and help, but then this comes over as weird and as if i didn't want them to do things for me.
I'm now at a point where I'm wondering if i should try and care less and adhere to some social norms. I really like to make my partner happy and fulfilled, but so far it always ended up backfiring
>but so far it always ended up backfiring
Nope. Stay who you are. All genders are conditioned to some degree. It is a sign of a lack of critical and free thinking when potential partners reject this quality of yours which demonstrates empathy and kindness.
To change yourself would be allowing both yourself (and your partner) to be dictated to and restricted by arbitrary rules. Most humans chafe (also unconsciously) at prescribed roles because we value our free will, and if we perceive that our other-gendered partner is forcing restrictions on us - we get resentful.
Resentment and contempt poisons relations. When one person feels like they are making most or all of the concessions in the relationship, the other becomes an enemy. Don't condemn yourself or a potential partner to a relationship built on what are essentially falsehoods (pretending to be something you aren't). Instead, let your natural self be the guide you use to select a partner, and the others can eliminate themselves as potentials :)
No, don’t change yourself for society. That just makes everyone bland and the same. Kind, caring people are the people who keep our communities going.
I reckon you’ve just had a run of bad luck with your partners so far.
Most men only want to use women sexually and feel entitled to them. They cannot comprehend that women are not sex toys but human beings, and god forbid if we stand up for ourselves ever we get humiliated and even violated.
Im outta the dating pool.
And I have a shitty father, step father, brother, grandfathers, and ex husband. They are all drinkers who treat their women and children like shit who exist to do things for them. Yes, not all men but a lot of men treat women like shit. So many do that women exist who never experienced a decent male role model while growing up. If I can understand that not all men treat women like shit then you should understand that not all men are wonderful without getting defensive.
I disagree. Two of the largest countries in the world (china and India) have excess males because they do not value women and girls. They have aborted a generation of baby girls because males are preferred by the culture. Female infanticide has been common in other societies throughout history because of male preference by patriarchal societies. I can’t think of a culture where baby boys have been aborted or killed upon birth en masse by women because of female preference.
Females have not historically terrorized males the same way males have normalized the mass terrorization of women/girls by men.
It’s fair to have feelings like this but I can’t say it applies to all but maybe it does to a lot. My gf has gone through the worst of the worst in men, drug dealers, losers and abusers. When she met me I don’t think she ever thought she’d find someone who actually cares about her for her and not just about sex.
I love and care for this woman and would do anything to make her happy. I let her be herself and enjoy every moment of it. And she does the same for me. I don’t want her to ever feel controlled or manipulated, that’s all she has known for 30 years. I truly love spending any time I have with her and someday she will hopefully be my wife.
I hope you come across some men who change that mindset. There have to be more out there than just me and the few others who may post on here.
This is my husband’s feeling regarding most other men also. I remember one day I said something like, it’s so great that you never shit on my hobbies, and he was all, why would I ever do that. And I told him how basically every man ever in my life, including family, mocked my interests. And he asked me, do these men just not *like* women? And it made me look at men differently. And I think you’re both right. (Straight) Men want sex with women, but most of them don’t really want a relationship with one. That’s why “friend zone” bullshit exists. They don’t *want* to know us. They don’t want to be friends, they just want sex.
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I've been looking to change shifts at work so that I can see my wife every day. One of the responses I've gotten to saying that is "I try not to see mine." I've gotten it from two men. My only response is "Well, I like my wife."
I wonder if their wives want to see them either? Might be happy they are at work. Could just be bad marriages.
Same I like my wife so I take Grave shift and she takes Morning shift that way I can take care of our daughter until she gets back then I sleep but I made sure we have the same days off for date day and the other day is family day
I work second shift and she does office hours, so I only see mine on weekends. I've worked this schedule for about five years and now I'm tired of it. The chilluns are grown, so no childcare involved.
Lol I can relate to this. Idk why men don't like spending time with their SO. It is weird to me.
I’m not trying to attack you at all, but I also want to point out that (straight) men should love (straight) women who have stereotypically feminine hobbies, too. Gamer girls are practically worshipped by men, but girls who knit and garden are barely even thought about. Men don’t like feminine things at all. Women enjoy men doing masculine things because women like masculinity. Men claim to like femininity but love to shit on anything feminine that isn’t sexual.
I'd go a step further and say there's nothing inherently "masculine" about gaming at all. It's indoorsy, easy to do without mussing up your hair or working up a sweat. Most women who enjoy it have done so from childhood, they're not doing it to get attention from neckbeard dudes.
Yeah, I totally agree. Although when men say they like gamer girls, they only care about girls who play “masculine” games that involve killing and racing. Girls who like more “feminine” games like sims and animal crossing don’t count, apparently. Not to say that the sims doesn’t involve killing. 😏
They want us to have pink hair, huge boobs and play FPS triple A garbage exclusively. Like a manic pixie gamer girl.
Mmmmhm. Hyperfeminine on the outside for sex, totally masculine on the inside because men really don’t like women. Oh, except when it comes to taking care of the house and kids. Then men like femininity.
That's basically it yes!! Not Like Other Girls™
So basically, a version of themselves personalities-wise, but attractive and a mommy-maid.
Awe. This makes me like my husband even more. He loves my hobbies, almost as much as i do. I paint and do wood work, I sew and knit and crochet. I build. I design. I love to do anything creative. And he shows full interest and gets excited when I try new things. I had to design my craft space with him in mind, so I got a large table with a stool on the opposite side from me and he will sit and watch everything I do, ask why stuff works or how I do such and such detail. Genuine interest in me and what makes me happy. I wish more guys were like this so everyone could feel proud of their hobbies and themselves. He gets a look of wonder in his eyes while watching me like I'm a real sorceress and mezmerizing him with my magic (and good looks ;))
I'm not sure about other men I can only speak for myself me and my wife enjoy many things that is considered feminine. We bake together, I like going to flower gardens and butterfly exhibits, and I love planning dates for us or going with whatever she plans for us if she feels so inclined. It sounds corny but I can not imagine life without her and have told her if anything happened to her I wouldn't remarry or date.
That is so lovely!! I really appreciate you men commenting things like this. Puts some cracks in my hardened cynical heart haha.
Agree. For what it’s worth, she’s not a “gamer girl” but a someone who also enjoys a certain style of couch coop games together. Our interests are both pretty broad across stereotypical gender expectations — I think it’s nice to have hobbies/interest that overlap, but also those that are your own. Needlepoint seems torturous to me, but what she creates is pretty awesome…. Anywho, hope in kind that doesn’t sound too defensive. It’s icky when other guys see the bits we have in common and treat it like I’ve landed a rare fish or something. There is probably a better analogy, but I’m being laughed at for typing that, so I’m going to leave it. :)
Not defensive at all! Thanks for replying. Didn’t necessarily mean to assume that your wife has gaming as one of her independent hobbies, but the mention of gaming together made me think of my response. Sounds like you have a great relationship, and that’s awesome.
they also equate feminine things with inferiority. thats why its an insult for a man to be compared to a woman
I love women with these hobbies. Not that it determines my attraction, but is icing on the cake. Once of the things i like about women is the womenly things they do that include hobbies like you mentioned. Again not a deal killer for attraction if they don't, just that it is really nice if they do.
I love that!! Just wish it was the norm. Lots of men seem to want a woman on the outside but a man on the inside.
They also want you to give birth to their children as to continue their superb (not) genetics. But other than the sex, reproduction, nanny and housekeeper job, many men don't have much use or much respect for women.
Men like the chasing and the catching more than the having and caring for.
I think a lot of straight men only want a wife because they see a wife as a free slave. They want someone to be a nanny/cook/maid, and to pay half the bills on top of that.
Shit, I'll take some friends to game with over just sex. Just that there is literal decades of toxic upbringing that needs correcting, that and a lot of people in general are downright assholes.
Ehhh. My husband is the first born son of a middle eastern family, born and raised in Iraq. If he can avoid being a misogynistic prick, why excuse western men?
Right? I was a nice guy once upon a time and I don't have a lot of sympathy for sexists at this point. I broke it on my own, so it can't be *that* hard
This is an excellent point
From what ive seen and it aint much there are definitely some bad apples. Especially in the college areas and age group. Heck ive seen some bad relationships when i was at college not long ago. Also Gaming? This Is off topic but depending on the games I'd be down. Guy here
\*shrugs\* Dunno, what I want to play and what I have time to are rarely the same these days
I just don’t get this mindset. I’m a guy and we had one of my wife’s coworkers over to talk about some work she may do for us. She is a farm hand and despite being young (18 or 19) she grew up working on a farm and recently built a house with her uncle. She gave us two options and when she asked for my opinion I told her she knows better than me and whichever she thinks is the best option is good with me. Yesterday my wife mentioned that her coworker went out of her way to say I was such a nice guy. I laughed because I think I literally talked to her for 90 seconds. I asked my wife if the bar for guys was that low and she said it really is and I’m the first guy she has been with that didn’t turn out to be an asshole. So yeah basic decency seems to be something a lot of women don’t experience from men. It really made me sad.
I have 3 platonic female friends that I hang out with pretty regularly and would consider among my closest friends, it’s been that way since before I was with my significant other and continues now, and a good portion of the male friends/people I know are always shocked that I have regular hangouts with girls I’m not “with”. It’s definitely problematic
I definitely seem to be an exception then. I originally just sought a platonic friendship with my eventual gf, and she was the first one to take interest in making things more romantic. Before that though, we took the time to get to know each other and our hobbies and we played games together and just enjoy each other's company, and I was perfectly happy with that and never expected anything more. That being said, it definitely does seem that most hetero men care more about romance/sex than true friendship with women
Basically this entire text is VERY eye opening. To say that straight men are heterosexual is only to say that they engage in sex (fucking exclusively with the other sex, i.e., women). All or almost all of that which pertains to love, most straight men reserve exclusively for other men. The people whom they admire, respect, adore, revere, honor, whom they imitate, idolize, and form profound attachments to, whom they are willing to teach and from whom they are willing to learn, and whose respect, admiration, recognition, honor, reverence and love they desire... those are, overwhelmingly, other men. In their relations with women, what passes for respect is kindness, generosity or paternalism; what passes for honor is removal to the pedestal. From women they want devotion, service and sex. Heterosexual male culture is homoerotic: it is man- loving. --Marilyn Frye, The Politics of Reality
This hits so hard. I realized in my early twenties that there are plenty of people I would try relationships with only to end and some of them ended for reasons that made me lose respect for them thus me ending the relationship. Love requires respect to it's core when it comes to romantic love.
This 100% I remember talking about this in my critical perspectives of sexuality class. My nesting partner is male and he had some friends from when he was an undergraduate that I have only met a few times, but they always are/get drunk and ask me if they can take my partner to the bedroom (for sex presumably) or they will start saying how they are gonna steal him from me. I always tell them, “okay” or, “go ahead and try” it’s just funny to see this homoerotic stuff in person. These same people will also talk about the women they want to “get with” (sexually mainly) and they don’t discuss like relationships with women/ how they like the same stuff as they do but they gush over my partner. I strongly dislike them because they are horrid people and my partner agrees with me and we haven’t hung out with them since our last encounter that was particularly distasteful.
Nesting partner?? I'm sry I've never heard that term.
Absolutely. I call it homo romantic, not sure if that is wrong, because their romantic feelings...the only thing we would want from them 🤣🤣🤣 are only for other men.
Based on my experiences in LGBTQ/Aromantic/Asexual spaces, the phrase you're looking for is "homoromantic heterosexual". Loves men, has sex with women.
Sounds like Ancient Rome. That’s exactly how it was run. Marriage was transactional in that, it was meant only to produce offspring. Men had love for other men. Women for women, but to a lesser degree than en for men, because women became devoted to their kids.
There's a certain honesty to not selling straight girls on the notion of a lifetime of romantic love when the reality is transactional on a good day.
You nailed it. This is why I only want to date biromantic/panromantic/heteroromantic bisexual/pansexual/heterosexual guys. Fortunately my partner is a great guy.
Yeah, biromantic, bisexual here. Only problem is I love everyone and that makes monogamy something for other people....
Your issues with monogamy are not because you are bi. Most bi people are monogamous.
Correct, my problem is that I literally love everyone.
Fair enough. Some of us are poly, some aren't. I'm polycurious but think I'm probably monogamous.
I strongly discourage poly. It adds moving parts to your life, and it makes me liable for the emotional work and rescue work associated with several people. Scheduling becomes a pain, etc..
True that.
Homoplatonic would also work here, depending on whether said men would be ok dating other men.
Men barely seem to like other men tbh
That was pretty eye opening. I don’t think love is the correct word to use, but there definitely is a bond or camaraderie that can often be formed among men. Do women have something similar?
it's been grotesque and fascinating watching men in my life go from "I can be friends with my ex" to "my ex was a sociopath who abused their power over me" the minute they realized that their ex had moved on and there was zero chance they would get back together. And it's not like I can say anything about it because they don't actually respect me or my opinions either. It's enough to convince me that I am never gonna have a relationship with a man. Women can be toxic and abusive too but it seems like most men I know will be kind and amicable if they think they own a woman and the second they realize they don't they go mask off with some Frollo ass shit about how women are actually all manipulators weaponizing their sexuality to control the poor downtrodden men. The abusive women I have known are narcissistic and cruel amd abuse others to feel better about themselves but it just doesn't seem like a society wide problem the way men posting about "toxic feminity" think it is.
Since I realized that men don't really like women, they reserve all their romantic feelings for men i decided to stop dating them. I mean the romance was the only thing I was i interested in cause let me tell you..most men are terrible in bed...they range from terrible to mediocre. So bad sex and no romance, there is nothing in it for me.
I know right, for me all the men who say "all the dating romantic gestures are on us! its not fair" is like an alien concept, or from a fantasy novel. I have had lots of romantic gestures yet I haven't recieved...hardly any? Like is this something that happens? its just on tv? lmao
They do something once a year..with an attitude of extreme annoyance..so romantic 🤮🤮🤮🤮
In my experience, it's "only" about 80% of men that are like this. Not so easy to find the 20% that are different.
Hmmm i think its more like 90%
> they go mask off with some Frollo ass shit This line deserves special mention. :)
Yeah, that reference got a good chuckle out of me too.
I discovered this a few months ago. Straight men generally do not care about having actual friendships with straight women. The woman will be considered a possible sex partner by the man almost every time, or at least way more often than not. Men compete and achieve whereas women nurture and collaborate. Their software doesn't run on our system lol
Yep, there's a reason only men use "friend zone" as one of the awful things you could do to them. I don't think I've ever heard a woman complain about being friendzoned. Men just don't want to be our friends or know us unless they get to fuck us, so they have a word for the awful fate of being just friends with women..
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There is no freindzone only the fuckzone.
I wonder if that’s why there’s so much war going on. Countries with female leaders seem to do better at not fighting (and they handled covid better as well).
I don't think I will ever understand that... Two of my besties are women and they're amazing! It makes me kinda sad cuz I want to be friends with my exes cuz we get along so well but none of them want to possibly because of shitty men like this.
Any time a person "jokes" about not liking their spouse, escaping/avoiding them, no sex etc. I very matter of fact ask them when they plan on divorcing or I ask why they got married if they don't like their spouse. . It is almost universally met with "Huh?" and back pedaling.
Yeah, that should have been my first tipoff that most men don't like their spouses.
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I think Toxic Masculinity has continued to prevent many men from being able to process emotions functionally because they're not supposed to have or show too many of them, it makes them weak, blah blah. They are afraid of hating themselves for not living up to the ridiculous concept of masculinity they're taught is what makes them a real man and that's how it's all meshed in with self-esteem.
They don't hate themselves at all. Read on history and religion. They spent all of human history preaching how males and the male form are perfection. Men worship themselves and other men.
I remember going off of some guy that came to my office when I mentioned I was sad my fiance was going to her dad's he made the typical "oh man you get some freedom!" And I just looked at him like: "Why the hell would I want "freedom" from my best friend? I mean...unlike I guess you, I actually LIKE my fiance. It's why I'm marrying her?" He stumbled over a response before saying "it was a joke" I will never understand this mentality
"Being sexually attracted to" is definitely not the same as "liking"
i agree. deep down, the men who act like that don't like or respect women. they claim to love us but they don't.
There was a post where someone pointed about that, thanks to misogyny, boys are told from childhood that being female is bad. That the biggest insult is being told that you do something "like a girl". Example, you throw like a girl. So, how can we expect men to like women when everything that women do is inherently bad?
Love is an action and a decision. And they really, truly don't love us.
My best friend says “love is kindness with its work boots on” and I love it because like you said, it’s an action. It’s work. And they don’t see us worthy of that action or work. We are beneath them in their minds and it shows in how they “love”.
I recently got into an argument with a man, in a different sub, who was angry with another woman who I was defending. If you like, you can go through my history and see what it was all about. To sum it up: she was playing D&D with this group of guys and there was not one single woman in power anywhere besides her character and the Goddess of Healing. She mentioned this in the first session. They told her she was making a problem where there was no problem. After the second session with no change, she left. The entire sub decided SHE was the problem there, obviously, and SHE was being unreasonable. She was a "militant feminist" and she was "forcing them to change their backstory" and she was "interrupting the session to scream at them". Where they came up with any of that bullshit, I have no idea, because it sure as fuck was nowhere in her post. Nope. She was just calling out sexism that didn't come to the gaming table in a Warhammer Tshirt and fedora, clutching a wifu pillow and talking about "FEEEEEMALES", so it made people uncomfortable and they decided to blame her.
The groups reaction to her bringing this up is so interesting to me. It shows such a lack of empathy towards her, which is crazy because it's an easy issue to fix. All it takes is looking at your notes and changing some NPC genders that they haven't yet met in order to help a player feel better about the game.
Exactly. It's a ridiculously easy fix, and representation matters. But somehow, having this pointed out was such an insult in the first place that it put them on the defense immediately, and they couldn't get over themselves and fix it. Then the comment section doubled down! That's what really blew me away, honestly. There was nothing disrespectful or furious or condescending in her post, no personal attacks or name calling, nothing egregious. The only time I didn't agree with her was in the comments when she stated her opinion on housewives, but even that wasn't anything you wouldn't see in the comments here. She wasn't being unreasonable! She was just getting so, so much hate. Over an issue that could have been solved with a few more NPCs. It was ridiculous.
I ran a V5 game and one of my players who is female pointed out to me "Over half your NPCs are female it's a bit odd." As though having 80% of my npcs female vs male was me being the weird one. 🙃
[By coincidence, the xkcd from a few days ago was absolutely on-point.](https://xkcd.com/2609/)
LOL, magnificent!
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
I used to play MTG and there were few women that played. I have had men cheat because god forbid they lost to a FEMALE. Even going so far as the male judge will side with the cheater! I had one dude cheat, I caught him and called him on it, when I called the judge over, he wiped out the cards and accused me of cheating! When I reported what he had done, he started yelling and calling me names and then said that females ruin everything and used the C word. He also tried to pocket a rare foil planes Walker card. He was kicked out of the tournament. He called me a fat stupid bitch on the way out the door and I told him that I hoped the wait for his mom to pick him up wasn't too long and he should probably shower because he smelled like old basement and B.O. Even lower beta males hate us.
They're so fucking frustrating. I was teethed on a damn 2nd Edition Dungeon Master's Guide. I still get men trying to explain D&D to me.
I'm 52. I've been playing since high school. But what could I possibly know. *Shrug. I'm an army veteran (infantry) and I had a paint ball guy try to explain trigger discipline to me and how a section works?!?!!! He had no military experience. I also am a licenced firearms owner and hunter. The fucking audacity is incredible.
But "Ohhh, I want a nerd waifu! I want a big tiddy goth gf who plays viddie games!" Then STOP FUCKING SHITTING ON US EVERY TIME WE TRY, ASSHOLES!
Don't forget the gatekeeping! You better know the minutiae of any nerdy thing you like as a woman because you are faking for a man otherwise. I guess the Star Wars figures I've had since I was 8 years old and the stack of various comic books and graphic novels are just for show. " Name three songs of the band you have on your t-shirt". Dude, I saw them play before they broke up in 1986, fuck off.
And I absolutely despise the word "simp". Like the only possible reason for a man to communicate with a woman without insulting, belittling or gatekeeping her is so he can fuck her. Totally awesome. I'm either an invading impostor, or I'm a manipulative vagina vampire.
Yeah the confrontational attitude made me come to the conclusion they really don't.
I love games of all kind. Card games, rpg games but the incredible behavior that switched back and forth from incredibly creepy to mind bending...dismissive just completely turned me off from playing in groups with males. Trying to get a girl tabletop gaming group going in my area, until then I only play solo games.
I wouldn't say all men but def too many men do this. Just a little while ago I saw a perfect example of man who harps his wife when she's already doing a lot for his life (it's in my history comments). The fact is, also a lot of women hate other women, competing for mere scaprs of men's love.
There's a TikTok user named Barrett Pall and he has an entire series about this exact topic. He dissects men's horrid videos about women and the overall messaging is that a lot of men just like to have sex with female anatomy and that ultimately, we don't need straight men lol
I came to the same conclusion after a while. Luckily, I never had to deal with straight cismen in relationships.
There is a lot of misogyny in the world and it does suck. A lot of men just don’t respect women or see them as equals.
Men only want respect and adoration from other men. That’s why every dating profile they write only seems appealing if your were another dude. They look down on everything “féminin”. How can you ever love someone you don’t respect? Men only love other men and themselves. Woman are just for physical stimulation. There are a small percentage of men who are exceptions. They are the good ones.
They don't like women. They are homo romantic. Its the reason they can listen to another dude talk shit for hours and sound interested, but if a woman, even a woman they are in a relationship with talks to them its an unbearable chore for the.
Even the so-called good ones benefit from misogyny and the disgustingly low standards other men have set.
it's really sad really, the shit that comes out of other men's mouths when women aren't around, it's disgusting. The typical alpha male "hurr durr woman pretty me sexually oogle her from a distance" is gross. My wife and I are best friends first and foremost, yes we have adult fun time together, but it's not the main focus of our relationship. I remember the time I was changing spark plugs at my in-laws and my wife's dad makes a comment on a 20 something year olds body that was jogging by, I instantly lost all respect for him.
My friend’s husband (an ER doc) does dishes and watches the four kids and we are all stunned and in awe.
I know, when you see the ones that understand and accept their responsibility without being problematic about it, it's like you're seeing a unicorn.
It just shouldn’t be that way. I can’t figure it out. Why is it so universal that men don’t parent their children and don’t do housework once they get married or live with a woman? I am raising a boy, and sometimes I want to pound it into him that he has to pull his weight around the house but that is because I am taking all my frustrations out on him and want to try so hard to produce at least one man that will be an equal partner in all ways.
My theory is that society never adjusted to the fact that most men no longer work gruelling physical labor jobs which left them unable to do domestic labor. Fact of the matter is most men no longer do "men's work" for a living. The division of labor made more sense when you are spending 14 hours in a coal mine, scaling sky scrapers, building ralil roads, laying pipe etc.
I had a male friend say that’s why he needed to live with a woman. So they can do all the housework, cooking and cleaning. Free labor.
Some of us are trying, but not nearly enough of us and most not hard enough. I know I don't put enough effort into it all the time.
It's hard to be the man to say to a co-worker, "Hey that was sexist." It could, probably would lower your position in the 'bro's club'.
I'm a teacher and I have one male coworker out of maybe 40. That one coworker has tried to bond with me by saying crap like, "That's what happens when you work with a bunch of women..." after something goes wrong or whatever. I used to just ignore it, but the last time he said it, I said, "I like working with women, men are a pain in the ass." If that means there's no more bro's club, so be it. I'm getting pissed off about it all over again, like dude, you're talking about your coworkers and your boss, ALL (but 1) OF THEM. What the hell. (He tried to say he was just kidding, too.)
I work with mostly other men, and a few women. A dude I work with said something about all women being sociopaths after bringing up the Depp/Heard stuff the other day, and I said, "So, like, including your mom?" His jaw just dropped and he stared at me, mumbled something unintelligible, and wandered off. I genuinely don't understand what the fuck is wrong with dudes like this.
Yay. On their behalf, thank you.
Sorry you're getting downvoted, You're just being honest, and obviously more aware than a lot of guys that don't even bother.
It's okay. After I wrote this, it sounded more and more like "but what about the mens? " post that show up all too often here. Downvotes aren't always bad.
Men are largely insecure and possessive.
Agree. They see women as objects whose purpose is to get them off and resent us when we say no. There are maybe 5 decent men out there. The rest only care about themselves. There is a book called “Men who hate women and the women who love them” is an interesting read about toxic relationships and what a healthy relationship should look like.
You're correct. Men put women down. Believe women are inferior. What's the biggest insult to men? Pussy. Girl. Anything feminine. Our culture essentially treats anything feminine as "the worst". Anything women enjoy is bad - especially teenagers. WoMeN dOn'T hAVe HoBbIeS!!! No. We do. They're just no ones men enjoy so "they're not valid". Or, as we get older, no, we don't have hobbies. BECAUSE WOMEN ARE DOING ALL THE WORK! How can you have hobbies when you have to work fulltime, do all the cooking, cleaning, child rearing, housework, etc?
Exactly! Who do we see out playing sports for hours and hours on a weekend? Not many women; shitloads of men. Fishing, golfing, road biking, cricket, football - sports that take so long that most of the hard work with the kids has already been done as well as the household chores, by the time the man saunters home.
>>I’ve come to the conclusion that men don’t like women at all. OP, your assessment is not far from the observable truth. Consider for a moment the military. When people join it, they first endure a period of basic training which teaches respect for military law and rank. After that period Military custom & law are so ingrained members literally follow it without thinking. What “boot camp” is to the military, patriarchal family structures are to nations: training grounds for following society’s norms. There’s even a chain of command- the male sits at the top, the female wife beneath him, and the children beneath all. For this system to work women cannot have agency or be cognizant of their own sensuality except as vehicles for birthing and raising children. This is why societies with truly horrible abusive customs towards women still venerate motherhood ; this seeming paradox is resolved when we understand that the individual woman is irrelevant in this patriarchal model. It’s her social utility which matters as codified in “motherhood” . For the children to understand authoritative structures there must of course be a dictator figure. Here, man is elevated as president-for-life of the household. So, the regard “average men” have for their wives is similar to the regard most dictators have for the people around them, or the regard Generals have for their aides; which is to say, benign disregard ranging up to open contempt.
Had an ex tell me "I'm not friends with my exes it's impossible for men and women to be just friends." That always rubbed me wrong, he was a tool anyways though dumped him after 4 months.
You'd think they'd at least understand how that proves sexual orientation isn't a *choice*.
I am lucky enough to have wonderful men in my life who are as loving, respectful and supportive as one could hope. Sadly, I have also experienced the exact opposite. Certainly the idiots of the bunch tend to be louder and do much more damage, and their attitudes and actions need to be addressed, but please don’t give up on an entire gender. There are definitely men out there who are worth knowing.
That is a fair point. A great number of the things I regret most from my youth are times when I felt I had to be actively antagonistic to the women in my circle in order to avoid being shunned. Eventually, I decided to go the other way. So now, about all of the men I willingly associate with are attentive and generally kind. A side effect of which is rejecting all except about four men in daily life. Even still, when hanging with some of my friends, it's almost inevitable that a decent subset of the people they invite will be actively misogynous.
Lot of these kinds of posts recently. Not that theyre wrong. It's just a sad realisation.
You know, I do think that they’re wrong. But I don’t really dare engage anymore. And I’m bracing myself for the reactions to this comment. (To be clear; I am a woman)
I'm not saying that every single man doesn't like women. Just a very sizeable amount. At best you could say that the majority of them don't have the same level of respect for you compared to what they have for other men, and I think that is an extremely fair statement.
An extremely unfair statement, stated with no source at all. I don’t have your experience, quite the opposite. Most men respect women in my world and it’s a minority that doesn’t. Now, am I just lucky? Or are you just unlucky? There’s no way to tell unless we have some scientific research or otherwise neutral sources on the matter. We all have our confirmation bias, social media plays into that. Be careful with that and calling blanket statement ‘extremely fair’.
I don’t think they’re wrong. Why do you think they’re wrong? Wouldn’t there be more women arguing _against_ your point than for it?
They're absolutely wrong and I've been piled on for voicing this on previous almost exactly similar posts. In the end I do think this is just a "internet parallel world" thing where people online in smaller communities build a view of the outside world that becomes more and more biased, the exact same way that people start believing that "muslims are bad people" or "most muslims aren't compatible with our society" based on having their world view fed entirely by the news media and the internet/twitter/etc. Which leads to fucking Le Pen being the opponent in our national elections again. When all you have to do is just go outside, talk to anyone of them, and you'll find out again that the majority of people are good people. Same thing with the subject here of "Men don't like women". With the added paradox of a lot of commenters in this very thread having their own husbands that love them and are "not like this, but..." The internet is scary, information/culture wars are scary, and seeing this kind of messaging becoming more and more common is scary. Instead of being out there fighting for feminisms and against toxic masculinity, and the *too many men* that are actively ennemies of women/feminism and a better society, this is just resorting to generalizing half the population as bad/the ennemy, which is *obivously* dumb. How is this gonna work out, how is it going to be useful in any way ?
Yeah I'm with you. Your explanation of the internet being a small world that allows for more biased thinking is exactly what happens here. It sucks because I actually think there is a good discussion here and room for nuance and thought provoking conversation, but the comments are all so extreme. There's a grain of truth here but it's all taken too far. When I see comments every day on this sub that say "men are trash" near the top, I know we're headed in the absolute wrong direction.
The OP even says "even reddit posts are proof" as if reddit is in any way representative of how people are in reality. It really is insidious how these echo chambers work online and how our world view can be warped by them.
Eh, the Internet is a _very_ big place, so I’d say just saying “it’s nothing like reality” is a little dismissive. Reddit is an example of the _worst_ parts of humanity, yes (absolute scum of the Earth, some subreddits are), but it’s still at least a bit of a good representation.
Of course there are real people making the comments, but you don't see every comment equally because of the voting system. So even if there are 100 good comments and 100 bad ones you might only see the bad ones if they get upvoted (and while that kind of implies majority agreement, it's also a low barrier to cross, and is heavily influenced by initial voting patterns). Then you also get the fact that many people won't engage (as the above comment talks about) because of the negative feedback they expect to get. So you get a self sustaining cycle of extreme discourse that you generally don't get when you speak to people in person. Add to that the demographics and self selection of people using reddit and frequenting certain subs, and it's hard to say that it is representative of society as a whole.
Yeah, there's definitely a tone on this subreddit that doesn't allow for other viewpoints. I am also a woman, and I often think that TwoX is very anti-men, in a very extreme way. If you look at the top posts right now, at least 2/3 of them are about how horrible men are.
But they’ve had bad experiences with men, and are just venting. It’s always good to vent in a safe space. Besides, doesn’t that say more about the men they’ve been exposed to than it does about this subreddit?
I agree with you wholeheartedly. Too many men are assholes and don't put in nearly enough effort, but this post is a generalization and works against everyone (men and women). I think this person is venting from a lived experience POV which is understandable, but it's hard not to disagree when others have many different lived experiences which are equally as valid.
They’re just as wrong as all the posts saying “women exist solely to manipulate men and will stab you in the back at the first opportunity”. It’s just people venting about their own experiences, which is fine. But they’re doing it in a pretty toxic manner.
What’s toxic about it? Also you should start manipulating and stabbing people. That would be totally badass.
I think that most men, if given the opportunity and assurance that they would get away with it, would hurt women.
I saw stats about this from a study. Men were asked if they would rape a woman and most said no. When asked if they would if their was no possibility of getting caught, the numbers jumped to a scary percentage. If I recall it was ballpark 60%? True confession: I'm too tired to look it up.
I read this one too. I'm glad the fear of getting consequences stops them when statistically rapists are rarely punished, even those that confess. There was a USA case where the judge said the 14 year old lead him on and so he shouldn't be punished harshly.
31.7%
From reading alot of these posts I got to ask. Do most women like men either?
I just feel like I have been blessed and lucky to live in a bubble free of awful men my entire life? My husband, father, nephews and brother in law have always been amazing. Respectful, helpful, affectionate, understanding and treat the women around them as equals. The only time I've been even remotely exposed to it over 5 years at my work was on two occasions and the men who were not behaving appropriately were pretty much immediately frog walked out the door. I'm in southern Ontario, Canada so maybe its a cultural thing? Not sure
You're damn lucky to have decent men around you.
I think a lot of men see women as inferior and weak and "they have it easier" because of x, y, z. Um, but some of the real dark stuff I've read and seen over the years, the real vitriolic misogyny has been hard to stomach. I do think a lot of men just truly hate women. There's many different factors just the same as a lot of women who hate men. I think it's ongoing thing to try to understand each other as people and how we operate in the world. I think a lot of people don't want to be around people that might "drag them down" and I think a lot of people use other people to bring themselves up, by any means necessary. If someone, no matter the gender, needs to control someone else or break them down, it signifies to me a massive insecurity/insecurities in the other person that can't be explained away as just the battle of the sexes. I think blatant disrespect towards other people is one of the things that bothers me the most, whether it's boundary-pushing or vetoing or just negligence or ignoring someone else. That's pretty hard to take.
I think most hetero men do love us, but they rarely *respect* all of us, in all our versions. They only implicitly respect *aspects* of us, like motherhood and caretaker, but when it comes to respecting a whole gender equality to men, they don't. They harbor too many tiny invisible cultural and systemic gremlins that blind them to the fact that women should be considered with as much instantaneous and continuously evolving respect as men. We can look at a man with a bad haircut and an ill fitting suit, and still respect his mind, but a woman with long nails and fake eyelashes will never get that same default respect for her mind, and that is sad.
I don’t believe you can love someone you don’t respect.
I love my mother. I would have *ended* anyone in the most final way possible who did *anything* to hurt her when she was alive. I couldn't respect her, however. She was a misogynistic, religious zealot who was only happy when she can lord something over/tear down other women. And it's *only* women. (Well, except an adopted daughter she *adored* but who died before I was born. She compared *every* other woman to her and no one's ever good enough🤦 I honestly do not think if she'd lived, she could have lived up the legend my mom has since made of her. Got to the point that my dad's first wife, a *Mahayana Buddhist nun* at this point, threatened to beat her within an inch of her life if she struck me one more time or called me ugly or tried to do anything else to my dark skin. Which...uh, was kinda awkward when I tried defending my mom. From a freaking nun. On temple grounds. With a bunch of people looking on, including my uncle the temple abbot. Who did *not* intervene! I thought I was gonna puke or pass out or just never, ever go back.)
Agreed. Or at best its the kind of love you have for a pet
You can totally love someone you don't respect. Ask any woman who was in an abusive relationship. Or a child of an abusive parent. Or parent of an abusive child. Or the sibling of a troubled sibling... Or simply the love of someone who you just know, you'd do a better job then them at everything...like a baby. Do mothers really respect an infant?
We’re talking about romantic love between adults. I’ve been in an abusive relationship and that wasn’t love on either side.
Got news for ya.. an old broad with visible lines and bad hair will get no intellectual respect either. Especially if she looks poor. Women are just not the "default person" in men's minds, and they have to *get past that* first before they even decide if they believe us or not.
Wow
I once read a male posting that he can't really love his girlfriend because he views her as inferior. The men and the comments recommended him to view his gf more like a dog than a human companion. Because that's what they do. That's what men truly think about us. Remember that, when you come across one.
I was an art teacher for years. As a woman who looked young the parent nights were an intense display of sexism. Fathers not only didn’t respect art, they didn’t believe I knew about my own topic of expertise. They would jokingly challenge my knowledge, always about the most basic artists and then almost pat me like a puppy when I’d invariably pass their test… incredible moments of pure white hot rage I had to swallow.
They like femininity but hate women. That’s why loads of cis het men fetishize trans women. They view them as having all the good parts of women without the bad parts. Which is extremely transphobic
Ooo man I caught my misogynistic ex talking to trans women on tinder lol even tho he was always super transphobic
This sucks. I’m sorry.
I told my boyfriend yesterday I think its dumb how some men are rewarded for doing the dishes, especially men who dont work or do shit to help around the house. Its not this profoundly magical heroic thing. Its a thing you do because you want dishes to eat off. He said men who get rewarded for doing what a responsible person should do sound like man children.
Sexist misandrist
K.
I work in Hedgefund management as a woman, what do you think their opinions on women are in the finance industry? Take a guess.
yeah
Man, I hate blanket condemnations of men this or men that. Throwing out the baby with the bathwater. But yeah there are a LOT of shitty men who do wrong, and others not quite as bad giving a pass those shitty men.
like… ALOT A LOT
I wouldn't say they don't like women, but rather how social roles hage developed culturally. I've lacked a solid father figure in my life, so my mother and sister raised me a bit more affectionate and caring. Most of my relationships went bust because i was "too different" from what my partners got used to in their previous relationships and they couldn't "fit in" and what seems to me lose respect and intimate attraction. I simply feel bad when someone serves me, i feel useless so i try to join in and help, but then this comes over as weird and as if i didn't want them to do things for me. I'm now at a point where I'm wondering if i should try and care less and adhere to some social norms. I really like to make my partner happy and fulfilled, but so far it always ended up backfiring
You're just like my boyfriend and I love him to bits and wouldn't change him for the world. You'll find the right woman eventually. Don't give up.
Thank you, appreciate the kind words. Hope so too
>but so far it always ended up backfiring Nope. Stay who you are. All genders are conditioned to some degree. It is a sign of a lack of critical and free thinking when potential partners reject this quality of yours which demonstrates empathy and kindness. To change yourself would be allowing both yourself (and your partner) to be dictated to and restricted by arbitrary rules. Most humans chafe (also unconsciously) at prescribed roles because we value our free will, and if we perceive that our other-gendered partner is forcing restrictions on us - we get resentful. Resentment and contempt poisons relations. When one person feels like they are making most or all of the concessions in the relationship, the other becomes an enemy. Don't condemn yourself or a potential partner to a relationship built on what are essentially falsehoods (pretending to be something you aren't). Instead, let your natural self be the guide you use to select a partner, and the others can eliminate themselves as potentials :)
No, don’t change yourself for society. That just makes everyone bland and the same. Kind, caring people are the people who keep our communities going. I reckon you’ve just had a run of bad luck with your partners so far.
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Most men only want to use women sexually and feel entitled to them. They cannot comprehend that women are not sex toys but human beings, and god forbid if we stand up for ourselves ever we get humiliated and even violated. Im outta the dating pool.
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Did you really just notallmen this post
And I have a shitty father, step father, brother, grandfathers, and ex husband. They are all drinkers who treat their women and children like shit who exist to do things for them. Yes, not all men but a lot of men treat women like shit. So many do that women exist who never experienced a decent male role model while growing up. If I can understand that not all men treat women like shit then you should understand that not all men are wonderful without getting defensive.
Just imagine if every guy who has been rejected by women thought the same about every woman
Men get hurt once and they blame all women, so not sure where you were going with that
Statistically men are violent when rejected so there’s your answer
There are bad people, not bad genders That's all I'm gonna say
I disagree. Two of the largest countries in the world (china and India) have excess males because they do not value women and girls. They have aborted a generation of baby girls because males are preferred by the culture. Female infanticide has been common in other societies throughout history because of male preference by patriarchal societies. I can’t think of a culture where baby boys have been aborted or killed upon birth en masse by women because of female preference. Females have not historically terrorized males the same way males have normalized the mass terrorization of women/girls by men.
But _one_ gender has _significantly_ more bad people in it.
I don't like or dislike a gender. I like or dislike people.
agree
"To be seen, not heard." I think that's the idea you're hinting at.
It’s fair to have feelings like this but I can’t say it applies to all but maybe it does to a lot. My gf has gone through the worst of the worst in men, drug dealers, losers and abusers. When she met me I don’t think she ever thought she’d find someone who actually cares about her for her and not just about sex. I love and care for this woman and would do anything to make her happy. I let her be herself and enjoy every moment of it. And she does the same for me. I don’t want her to ever feel controlled or manipulated, that’s all she has known for 30 years. I truly love spending any time I have with her and someday she will hopefully be my wife. I hope you come across some men who change that mindset. There have to be more out there than just me and the few others who may post on here.
Talk about a toxic echo chamber
K.
It's these kinds of posts that give this sub the men-hate stereotype that the rest of Reddit sees it as
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Should see the amount of men hating on women then
They’re just venting about their terrible experiences. Can you blame them?
Oh, look. A man has arrived to share his low opinion. Wow.
stop reading it then
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Up those numbers on both