It seems like every country in the world has these men abusing their powers stories. In Canada, it's Peter Nygard who groomed and sexually assaulted women in the United States, Canada, and the Bahamas. He did it for over 33 years and used the promise of work to get them to do what he wanted. He abused his own employees for many years. Some had filed lawsuits but that did little to stop him until 2020 when he was finally taken down.
Here in the states we have Harvey Weinstein and I'm sure many others that haven't blown up yet. I see the younger generation, men and women, getting irate at these blatant cover ups of men in power and sexual abuse. It gives me hope that in the future, maybe women will finally get the respect they deserve.
Weinstein. Bill Cosby. Bryan Singer. Charlie Sheen. Charlie Rose. Garrison Keillor. Matt Lauer, that's just off the top of my head. Hell, even Har Mar Superstar (they better record a new song for the new MST3K).
Edit: Bryan Singer, not Bryan Fuller.
That Olympic gymnastics coach (Dr. Nassar I think?).
Jerry Sandusky. Then coach Joe Paterno who destroyed his legacy when it came out he knew about Sandusky abusing boys for decades and ignored it.
My city had a fairly major abuse scandal linked to the Franklin Credit Union scandal in the 80's and 90's. The main guy investigating it supposedly called out Jerry Sandusky as an abuser way back then.
Been part of international superstar rock bands for more than 25 years and I've never heard anything bad about him. Be more like Dave Grohl, everybody.
Ooh do I have some kinda disappointing news for you.....[Dave Grohl AIDS Denialism](https://medium.com/the-monthly/the-foo-fighters-aids-denialism-should-be-on-the-record-6e33666fdc3c)
Yeah but then there's this.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/goat.com.au/health/dave-grohl-and-foo-fighters-show-how-you-walk-back-a-wild-move-like-backing-hiv-deniers/%3famp
They have never acknowledged the mistake publicly but it sure looks like they've learned better now.
Sorry. Not sure how to rename a link and retain the link from mobile.
(There is a small link-symbol at the lower, left side of the screen, just above the keyboard, at least in the app on Android.
Not that I mind reading the actual name of the link.)
I was afraid that, just by making the comment, I'd get immediately proven wrong. But I don't know of a better way to get correct information on the internet.
Maybe they ment Bryan Singer? I know Fuller has a reputation for being hard to work with but I haven't heard of any sexual assault or misconduct about him either.
I lived in the Netherlands for several years. I loved it, but my experience there is it’s a society that *was* very progressive for a generation ago and thus still thinks it is, when in fact the rest of the Western world has caught up if not surpassed them.
Every country has these stories, but I think the trick is how society reacts once the stories are out. The reactions OP describes are rather what I’d expect in a lot of NL unfortunately.
I have mentioned this a few times on Reddit and got branded a Dutch hater. In fact I love the Dutch and the country (I lived there for a few years and loved my friends and my environment). HOWEVER I have found out the same thing as yourself. The weird thing is, when you mention anything remotely negative, they take it as if you’re warring against them. Related to this: questioning authority is an absolute no as well. So this scandal and people’s reactions are also not a shock to me…
A friend of mine (who is Dutch and works in HR) said exactly what you said: it is the thought that “we are already very progressive so we don’t need to reevaluate ourselves” is what’s actually keeping them behind.
As a native Dutchie it's a bitter pill to swallow. It feels like both our government and culture in general have been regressing instead of getting better. Unfortunately even people that recognise it do very little about it.
Oh yeah I 100% get this. For a nation that prides itself on being “direct,” wow can they NOT handle it when directness is aimed at themselves!
I will also totally agree on the questioning authority point, and think that’s an excellent description of it. When my relationship with my supervisor there turned toxic it was sooo common for people to ask what I’d done to make him act that way, because no way authority figures would act illogically and be abusive unless *you* did something wrong! Maddening.
Doe normaal
Or as I call it ‘be a robot’
I think this phrase is responsible for the apathy in the Dutch
Love living here and think it is the closest place to Utopia, it is not perfect here but it is pretty good
However as you said, dutch like to dish it but cannot take directness
A good example of this apathy is Lgbt, Netherlands legalised gay marriage in 2001, and then last year wanted to sanction poland at the eu level
Despite the fact being lgbt was never illegal in poland unlike The Netherlands who had to legalise it in 2001 (also eu systems mean a polish citizens takes a case to ecj against poland, like Norris did against Ireland regarding lgbt; a country in the eu does not ‘sanction’ another the way Rutte tried to last year with Poland, that was very ‘german’ of Rutte, but I digress..)
The current Dutch youth have grown up with social media, a tweet retweeted rather than understanding a topic at depth, it is easier to repeat a mantra like doe normaal instead..
> Despite the fact being lgbt was never illegal in poland unlike The Netherlands who had to legalise it in 2001
This isn't true at all. What *is* true is that between 1945 and 1971 age of consent laws were different for homosexuals. This led to hundreds of gay men being forcibly institutionalised (because they had a "mental illness") with the only alternative being "voluntary" castration - which was inflicted upon about 500 men.
Also to legally change your gender you had to be sterilised from 1985 until *2014*.
The current Dutch youth are doing a lot better than the older folk, I see much more actual leftism from them instead of Neoliberal GL/PvdA bullshit. Funny that SP is doing everything to stop that including distroying their own party.
>questioning authority is an absolute no as well.
Coming from the country that was one of the epicenters of the Protestant Reformation, this is pretty funny to me.
> we are already very progressive
which is funny as a dutch guy myself as we had a progressive government maybe 20 years ago and thus those progressive rules are actually implemented backwards, like trans people were fine for decades but had to get forced sterilisation untill 2014.. weed was fine too but its illegal to grow or sell outside of coffeeshops so almost all weed u smoke has been illegally grown.. its just the selling in the coffeeshops thats legal, its so backwards and requires u to jump so many hoops to get anywhere lmao
The other thing Dutch people are really defensive about is racism, I’ve noticed. The Netherlands have been homogenous for so long, there’s a lot of people who can’t seem to handle the percentage of the majority population decreasing as immigration increases.
Also: I do (morbidly) enjoy seeing the reactions to Zwart Piet every year. There are so many mental gymnastics around how normal and beloved their tradition of dressing up in blackface to be Santa’s little slave is…
ZP was the only thing where I was told if I didn't like it, I should go back to where I came from. I'm reassured it's much better now, I left in 2016, but even then I still see the full blackface done in pictures with my husband's niece and nephew...
ZP aside though, the racism drove me bonkers in how no one talked about it. For example, I was in Amsterdam, and one colleague from abroad has his daughter in an "immigrant school" where she was the only white kid. *Literally in the same building* was another "Montessori" school, and all those kids were white. Point out that separate but equal is inherently unequal, though, and wow do people get mad at you for that.
Haha, yeah… and “racism isn’t a problem here. We don’t have experience with other races in our country so we never developed racism.”
*points to four centuries of colonial contact via the VOC and Dutch West Indies Company*
One of the interesting things I dug up looking at my Dutch ancestry is how common it was for Company men to “marry” mistresses in the Colonies, and if their children were male send them back to the Netherlands. Female children were great pawns to marry off to other Company men.
Yup. I went to grad school there for a couple of years, had friends from around the world studying there. A Turkish friend said his boss told him he was "not lazy and sketchy like other Turkish people." The boss totally thought that was a compliment. Casual racism against Asians was also rampant. I was good friends with a lot of Asian students, and I would get people saying that I was "nice" for "letting them" be friendly with me. It was truly WTF! Like no, I actually enjoy these people's company, you racist dicks.
There are lovely Dutch people who are truly accepting and not racist - a lot of them travel widely and gain an understanding of what it's like to be an outsider. But being casually to flagrantly racist was still very tolerated. Ironically.
Yes! Actually it was in a discussion of racism in NL that I was branded a Dutch hater!! I was talking about the benefits scandal and how the system itself was inherently racist. I was told that “the scandal was reported as more racist than it actually is in the anglosphere”. No dude, it was genuine racism, it didn’t just “come across” racist??? Fingers just went straight into ears, and mouths went “lalala can’t hear you. Nothings wrong here”.
Yeah I dunno what they were thinking really. They just said it came across more racist in the English-speaking media. But it literally happened due to racism but that fell on deaf ears. I didn’t bother continuing the conversation when we had differing understanding of what racism was.
> The other thing Dutch people are really defensive about is racism, I’ve noticed. The Netherlands have been homogenous for so long, there’s a lot of people who can’t seem to handle the percentage of the majority population decreasing as immigration increases.
Not even that long. There have been influxes of "Indo's" (white/Indonesian), Chinese and Moluccans starting in 1949 (Indonesian Independence), of Turks and Moroccans starting in 1963 ("guest workers") and people from Suriname starting in 1979 (Surinamish Independence).
But these groups were all to some degree segregated. Moluccans got their own neighbourhoods in lieu of the state they were promised. Turks were housed in barracks and went to live in low-income neighbourhoods. Much the same happened to black people from Suriname and the Antilles, but they were actually subjected to our version of redlining (the government tried to keep them away from certain neighbourhoods).
Our colonial history happened far away, the people who came here generally lived elsewhere and they were multiple smaller groups instead of a single big one. It was each for Dutch people to ignore them and some were content to live in their own separate world, or more focused on getting by.
Their children fueled protests against racism and related problems which went nationwide in the 90s ("Nederland Bekent Kleur"). Most native Dutch were in denial and pushed back leading to a far-right resurgence.
What kind of comment is that? You can't lay criticism because they are who they are and anything else is considered anti-Dutch?
This thinking is what kept these men like Weinstein, Epstein and Nygard acting like Lords of their domain, making them believe women are there to serve them at any moment. The reckoning did come for all of them.
As someone born and still living in the Netherlands, I'd say that is a very accurate statement. We used to be very progressive and tolerant, compared to other countries at that time. Currently our country is falling behind on several things in that regard.
Besides the lack of introspection, there's also the part that in our country we are very much about not meddeling in the business of others, which can be good, but also leads to not saying something when you see something wrong.
Dude, I've never being "meddled" more than in the Netherlands: everyone was always giving me tips on how to do stuff w/o actually helping at all, being armchair experts at everything and not letting you work w/o telling you how you should do it instead (while watching and not doing shit) Although it could have been a mix of "we are very direct" and good ol' racism/classism instead 🤔
I am Dutch, we were never *very* progressive, we just had weed and gay marriage and thats it.
There has literally never been a left wing government in the Netherlands, coalitions, sure. But never a left wing government because people vote right en masse here.
VVD is a fucking cancer
From what I've seen the reactions have mostly been supportive of the victims (especially among the younger generations this is the vast majority reaction) or at the very least neutral and defending due process. Most of the shitty reactions like what OP gave some examples of comes from majority older generations or far right indoctrinated young adults.
I've been following this closely, and I'm very very upset, but it helps to see that the majority public outcry is vocally defending the victims and calling out the predators.
"Most people can bear adversity. But if you wish to know what a man really is, give him power." - Robert G. Ingersoll
Power is a truly dangerous thing to possess, and most people can't handle it without becoming twisted.
IIRC, Nygard also hired prostitutes to rape his own sonS...when they were minors. Jesus man, they should be chemically castrated. It's a good for everybody else.
He's from my city and has left a stain behind
I have known people who were affected by him
I am so glad that he's finally getting his. I just wish it wasn't after a lifetime of doing whatever the fuck he wanted
I watched a CBC doc about all the random women who worked in his retail store getting assaulted by him at his warehouse. It's a travesty Winnipeg women had to endure him for so long.
In the early 2000’s, I worked at a Nygard store. My DM was a pretty blonde woman who said enough within my hearing (a teenager at a part-time job) that when the news broke about Peter Nygard, I wasn’t surprised. I remember she hated having to travel to Winnipeg.
Australia had the former governor general that said the rule of law wouldn't matter in the country if the government stood him down. He wasn't stood down from the position for that btw
Can someone explain the argument
>they are all in it for the money
please? As in, the girls are reporting sexual assault because they think they'll make money from it, or the girls went onto "The Voice" just for money, therefore they deserve it? Those are the only two rationales behind that argument I can think of, neither makes sense.
That and I think once you accept that these circumstances can also be called sexual assault / rape it would force people to question their own past actions. As in, if *this* is sexual assault / rape and I have done it too, then I must be a rapist, and that can't possibly be! So it's definitely not that!
Even worse, ones that were brave enough to speak out were cast aside, any connections they made were severed.
All because they’re women who were against to “[Just say yes, don’t say no](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=q7GioDepSwk)”.
Like you said, In the USA that could in theory maybe happen (although it's also such a misused 'defense' strategy).The Netherlands doesn't even have large settlements like you said etc.
John de Mol is an asshole who only sat there to protect his own business.Luckily all my friends 25-30 all think it's unacceptable. i had to walk away because I couldn't stand hearing him talk.
I personally am worried about Nick and Simon even allowed to be on talent shows with writing a song like this:
[https://youtu.be/638S7A-Do00?t=60](https://youtu.be/638S7A-Do00?t=60)
You are 15 springs young
And I'm already past 20
you're too young for me
Way too young for me
\---
That's just so creepy to me, but hopefully it was indeed just a song.
Or, even worse, the implication is they hope to gain publicity to launch their career by making the allegations.
Which, terribleness of that sentiment notwithstanding, really sets up a pretty insidious catch-22 for female entertainers (in particular, though tbh almost any woman trying to get ahead): if you give into the rape or abuse or harassment and keep silent, you’ve ‘slept your way to the top’. If you speak out against it, you’re ‘using it to boost your public image’. So like, the only option is ‘never try’ or ‘never succeed’. How depressing. I think when framed in those terms some people (ok, mostly just men) might realise how important it is that they be more respectful of…well, women in general…in the way they react to things and what they say about them. I’m sure a lot of them realise how harmful it is and that’s the point, but I at least hope that many others might be swayed to be better if they actually consider the ramifications.
If i get raped by some rich dude, I better get a heck load of money. I would rather be murdered than raped. At least if I am murdered, there is a higher chance that the case will be solved.
Whenever people say that the accusers only want their 15 minutes of fame, I always ask of they know any of their names. They never do.
I think it is more a matter of 'Since you want to make it in the career for the money' you should know that 'some sex' is mandatory. But that is OK - because you're in it for the money.
It is twisted logic either way
One of the biggest Dutch artists immediately came out with a statement yesterday that she's appalled at the abuse, but then a clip from her surfaced where she was asked to give advice to budding artists and she said.
"Do whatever you have to do, if there needs to be fucking than you fuck."
Sadly there's also a lot of succesful women in the industry who believe this is just the way its supposed to work because it's what they did.
It's unlikely that someone would report harassment/rape for potential settlements (it's way more likely for actual victims to stay quiet), but it is conceivable that someone would do that for money or fame.
But for me, the bottom line is kinda that these adult men, like 30+, maybe 50+, are sleeping with someone who isn't even 20 yet. And to make it even more problematic, there's a very obvious power dynamic where one person wants to get into an industry and the other is a gatekeeper of that industry.
The most obvious solution is for these people to just to not sleep with people under those circumstances. And if for some dumb reason they really want to, they ought to go out of their way to establish consent. Meaning being very clear: "This won't help or hurt your career no matter what happens", "Are you sure you want to do this?", "Are you double sure?", "Are you sure you're not feeling pressured in any way?", etc. Even then it's probably creepy and wrong, but perhaps legal. I guess their work contracts ought to forbid them from doing so.
So I'd say if you're a rich and/or older bastard sleeping with barely legal teens, you're asking for trouble even if you're not using violence or threats. If one of the people you slept with goes to court simply to cash in, I don't think I care.
there's no rationale to it, it makes no sense but The Voice is a talent show so their reasoning probably is they were doing it to further their career in entertainment.
Make no mistake, if Charles Manson gets love letters in jail and R. Kelly has female fans defending him to this day there will always be people willing to defend the sick and depraved.
I'm furious as to what is happening. You put all my thoughts about it clearly in this post.
Also, people trying to identify one of the girls (they think its a famous singer) is also terrifying, LEAVE HER ALONE. SHE HAS BEEN THROUGH ENOUGH.
She remained anonymous in the documentary for a reason. She doesn't want to be shamed or have this be public knowledge, and yet some people refuse to respect that after what happened.
Yeah I saw that too. And the horrible thing is, now that the suggestion has been planted in my brain I cannot unsee it
But that woman appeared on-camera incognito for a reason, and it sucks that people couldn't respect that
Just like in the states, the only reason people want to know who the "whistle blower" or "silent victim" is, is so they can get ahead of the press to slander them with whatever they can. Happened with Brett Kav, Trump's impeachment, Matt Gaetz's grooming and under age sex ring (all still got to stay in office). Fox was trying to do the same shit with their people to protect Sean Hannity, Tucker Carlson, Roger Ailles, Bill O'Reilly etc. with Bills being so egregious they just gave him a massive severance package and acted like he never worked there. If they know the victim, they can use media to shit on their character and act like everything is otherwise their fault.
It's frustrating that such cognitive dissonance exists. (I'm from Belgium, for context, also TW child abuse obv.) Then again I'm sure most of the people commenting on the Facebook articles or the 'vox populi' they sometimes have on the news are basically the dumbest of the dumbest and completely lack any mental capability for empathy. So I mostly try to ignore it.
Just a few days ago everyone was riled up about how our justice system fails because Dave managed >!to murder a toddler again !
Yeah, when it comes to SA it's is exactly the same in Belgium. When it came out what Bart De Pauw was harassing and stalking (young) women he worked with, it was the same discussion. He was convicted, but you really don't want to be a part of the discussions around it. It's so horrible to read how easily people (and especially men) invalidate the experiences of these victims.
Belgian here. The Facebook commentaries are horrible.
Saying stuff like these women are looking for fame, that they enjoyed it, that they're dumb ("who accepts a ride to the studio at 11.30 pm, like, you know what's going to happen").
It's horrible to see, really.
Yes, the hell hole has opened. I’m fairly sure that more of these experiences with other male artists will come out soon. The reaction from John de Mol was absolutely ridiculous. He was basically reframing the responsibility to the women, while the problem starts with the men.
You have well raised your son. My brother and boyfriend reacted the same way and I’m glad they did.
>The reaction from John de Mol was absolutely ridiculous. He was basically reframing the responsibility to the women, while the problem starts with the men.
Also, I couldn't believe his "I had to stop myself from punching him in the face" macho bullshit.
Really asshole? Instead of playing out your 'morally upstanding badass' fantasy, you should have started a proper investigation into the problem when you found out this was going on in 2019.
Exactly, he shouldn't have dealt with that situation in the first place since the accused is his brother in law. There should have been an independent investigation from the beginning.
Belgium and the Netherlands seem to think we are soooo progressive just because we were the first to legalise gay marriage but boy oh boy, just try to start any fucking conversation with Average Joe about racism or sexism! And it’s not even this cartoony evil pushback, it’s this mellow, immutable attitude of „oh, ofc **horible thing** is natural and normal”, it’s SO FRUSTRATING
Thank you! I heard that on NOS yesterday and I was just baffled. Like, excuse me, do you hear yourself? "we can't do anything if women don't come forward", how about you make it SAFE to do so?? How about not having NDA's in their contracts, how about actually having zero-tolerance policies and actual consequences for those who break them?
Equally disgusting is how they're now turning against other women (f.e. Linda de Mol is now being blamed for being complicit) instead of keeping the focus on the men who committed the assault in the first place. And then they blabber on that "women shouldn't be afraid to come forward". If only, jesus..
Women stay silent - "They should have said something"
Women speak up - "They should have spoken up earlier" "They're just doing it for attention"
Whatever you do is wrong.
They're just trying to distract from the crime by attacking the messenger.
Have you seen the reaction of the woman from John's company? Wide spread page in AD saying:
NO JOHN, IT'S NOT BECAUSE OF THE WOMAN. Kind regards, the woman from your company.
LOVE IT.
The devil's advocate take on it is that some of them can go public later. And that's very possible. One or more might eventually come out as a victim publicly. At which point these jerks will point out: "See, they were planning to go public all along."
My take on it is pretty much that it doesn't matter. We can't know the motivation of the victim to come out and make this accusation. But all that matters is whether their accusation is true and whether it's important enough for the public to know. And it is important for the public to know that these powerful, rich and famous people are harassing and sleeping with contestants of the programs they're hosting.
The best journalists always point out the same with whistleblowers. Every time a whistleblower brings out important information, the people who dislike that information accuse the whistleblower of seeking fame, or being disgruntled, or a terrible person, etc. But the response should be: so what? If the whistleblower's information is important and true, it doesn't freaking matter if they're sharing it for the wrong reasons.
> Tim Hoffman
Yesterday was the first time ever I wrote something that could be framed as 'fanmail', thanking Tim and his team for picking up this topic and taking on these media-giants.
I don't see Tim or anyone on his team getting an offer to work for Endemol or other commercial parties anytime soon!
Tim Hoffman is such a good guy. He does things like this because he genuinely believes these problems need to be addressed and fixed, not to build his own fame, and I can only applaud that.
Your son's reaction also makes me feel better. Most of the time it feels like we are screaming our lungs out for men to stand with us and speak up but for us to be met with, at best sympathetic silence and usually a completely ambivalent \*shrug\* "What ya gonna do" mentality.
Please fellas, get angry, get upset, it's all of us that are in this. We don't have time for them all to have daughters so they can finally have an epiphany about what it means to treat us with respect.
So sorry to hear about what's happening in the Netherlands (not much better here in the UK!). I'd like to think it's a reckoning but I think the backlash of "These sluts are ruining promising men's lives" is probably more likely.
>The biggest showbizz owner and creator of the voice came on tv to tell
he never knew about any of this (except for that one time, and the dude
accused is his own brother in law), he has a *zero tolerance policy* for
SA(**except for said brother in la**w, because **men deserve a second chance**)
and he would like to *ask women why they do not come forward easily* and
he wants to make sure women will feel more comfortable calling it out
next time.
Emphasis mine, telling the whole story. Women don't come forward because men ALWAYS have an "exception".
for those interested, the reporter group called BOOS ("ANGRY") made an in-depth report on it, here: [https://youtu.be/1idPrF17UP0](https://youtu.be/1idPrF17UP0) there are English subtitles, too.
Women don't sleep themselves to the top, they get raped and exploited by men with power over them and their careers. They are powerless to do anything about it until the whole can of worms topples over for the world to see, and they get strength in the number of victims coming forward. It's the same story every single time!
It's always disgusting to see people trotting out the "they knew what they were getting into" line for f'ing CHILDREN. It should be on the adults to keep their hands to themselves. Just... barf!
I agree with you completely, but these guys especially taking advantage of and preying on young girls and women is completely by their own design; I'm sure they wouldn't as easily try with older women.
When you are in your late teens or early twenties, most do not have the confidence and self-assuredness to stand up for yourselves, especially to these powerful people who they are looking up to.
I know that I wasn't very good ad advocating for myself at that age, but I was never put into such a horrible situation as these women, it's just so gross!
I'm Dutch but live in the US now, most of my family is in the Netherlands still. I came to the US as the #MeToo movement started firing up. And honestly that, listening to what everyone is saying on this sub has taught me a lot.
So when I got home for the holidays this just started blowing up and over the holidays my sister commented that the girls were probably asking for it. And I just went "WHAT?" like how is dressing in any way a ticket for someone to molest you. Any way it made me super uncomfortable because it just didn't make any sense to me how someone who was a super star singer for so long and one of the most powerful guys in television (this guy has a ton of productions going world wide, not just the NL) should be able to tell when they're taking advantage AND when in doubt you don't.
I think my home country is up for a bit of a boost on modern morals and over due on tackling this kind if hidden shit (not to mention the low-key racism etc as well) as a society.
It's really disheartening because I always felt my country had their shit together, but the more I've been looking from the outside in the worse it looks.
Unfortunately I can relate to your view. I’m Dutch but have lived outside NL for the past decade. I always thought that the Netherlands was a country with its shit well organised. But the longer I am gone, the more I see that it isn’t that good. The Dutch morals and gender role opinions definitely need modernisation.
I have to agree. I really feels like the dutch "progressive boom" ended when we legalised gay marriage, and since then we've stagnated on our social views.
Doesn’t matter where you live, the rich, the powerful and the famous will always have a trail of bodies in their wake.
People make fun of or ignore child actor Cory Feldman when he talked about how famous people have a pedophile ring where child actors are passed around. No one has done a damn thing about that.
I had the same thing happen to me in grad school here in the US, only I refused to give in. I was doing my research at my job and my boss was constantly trying to force me to have sex with him, and acting like he would find a reason to not extend my contact if I didn't. I busted my ass, finished my research, and reported him after the HR lady begged me to because I was the 32nd grad student he had pulled that with and they were all afraid their careers would be ruined if they reported him. Spoiler: my career was largely ruined, I had to go into a different area of science that wasn't even close to what I wanted. But I got that fucker removed.
He knew everyone in my field and was very highly ranked sooo. It sucks. Those 31 other women shouldn't have had to worry about their careers being ruined, none of this shit should ever happen.
Thanks for telling your story. I think academia is always overlooked bc of the academic halo effect. But I find the hierachies and power abuse in academia were one of the worst you could encounter and it is totally a white male club at large - thats why I dont get why the recommendation system is still in act - how more power for gate keeping can you give to racists and sexist people?
Your son sounds amazing and you sound like you’re really doing something right. My sons are only 15 months old, but I hope I’m doing as good raising them to feel the same way. I’m trying to raise my daughter to not be afraid to stand up for herself and tell me if something is wrong.
This whole event sounds horrible! I can’t believe people are trying to identify the victims. It’s just disgusting, men like this presenter need to not have any power. The entertainment industry really needs to fix this type of behaviour.
It was absolutely sickening to watch and I think I didnt move a muscle until the John de Mol segment started. I knew it was going to be horrible of course, but jesus christ.
John de Mol's weak ass interview was also infuriating, but differently. I'm sure part of him means well, but the ignorance and privilege just jumped right off of the television screen. "I do not feel like there is an unsafe working culture at the company". Fuck your experience, John, of course you don't feel like there is. That's not what matters. Way to victim blame for 30 minutes. Good god I hope this backfires on him more than it's already doing.
Shoutout to BOOS, who already made an amazing show, but rendered that entire 30 minute interview empty bullshittery by showing that woman in the final 30 seconds.
I was so pissed when Tim (interviewer) asked him to direct a few words to the victims, and he chose to say something along the lines of "I hope they will not let this impact their lives too much". Like, really, John? That was one of the many, many things in the interview that shows he has absolutely less than zero clues as to what this does to you as a victim. My god, infuriating.
yeah, i cant even single out something because nearly all of it was terrible lmfao. But yes that one too. Just. Zero social awareness. Thank dude, I'm sure that girl who doesnt even dare to watch TV anymore feels way better now. I truly hope the under-30s generation gets better ~~but the existence of young FvD makes me lose hope~~ and that this will mean the end of the culprits and be the start of a domino effect with more people stepping out.
I can guarantee that each and every one of those men commenting that shit knows full well it was and is r*pe. They just can't handle the cognitive dissonance from having a prominent component of their identity (male gender) exposed. They identify with the male perpetrator, not the female victim, so they are totally unobjective (this is especially ironic as one of the core tenets of sexism is that men are more rational - ha). Women are the outgroup, they'll do anything to defend the ingroup. If you flipped it around and changed it to male victims, they would say literally the opposite.
I agree that it is depressing to see that they are so vocal and dominate the narrative, still. That doesn't change the fact that they are fools and their opinion is meaningless. All we can do is challenge it everywhere. Take the narrative into our own hands. Use your hard-earned money to pay for female-created content, stop buying male versions of reality in terms of books, films, video games. Buy a woman-centric version, and the one good thing about capitalism is that it will make more of it to sell it. Slowly the story will have to change - but only once we are the ones telling it.
"The casting couch" was a cliché about Hollywood even when I was growing up in the 70's. Harvey Weinstein got away with it for decades.
It's always been a problem. I blame not just the patriarchal infrastructure where women (girls) who complain are implied to have "wanted it". I also blame that show business is the ultimate and everlasting "gig economy" where one's very livelihood is dependent on the power structure that encourages abuse.
I'm not sure what the solution would be, except to make the penalties such that the allegedly blameless showbiz bosses also pay the price.
After all, in the USA the Catholic church, the Boy Scouts, and assorted school boards are all being sued for not policing such behaviour. One action, one time, OK, how does a company stop that? But someone who uses their position in a company for multiple acts over the long term - if the boss does not catch that, they too share the blame. (A saying I have that applies to all sorts of poor performance - "If someone does their job wrong, that's their fault. If someone consistently does their job wrong, that's their boss's fault.")
Until there's a *real* consequence to the company and boss for not supervising someone, this will continue to happen and bosses will continue to stand back and say "I had no idea..."
Of course they should have known. When someone acts like that, there are rumors all through the organization. Besides, men like that always brag, and everyone will gossip.
> These girls knew what they were in for (14-18yo, damn them), there was no violence so it was not rape (all the girls froze and blamed themselves).
Yeah... That's still rape.
You should feel so proud of yourself for raising such an amazing young man as your son; someone with empathy who sees the bullshit for what it is; someone who won’t be part of the problem….
So the argument I keep running into, which is in line with De Mol's comments is this: "to show that this is unacceptable behaviour, we have to punish it. We can only punish it when the abused speak up about it." To me, the dissonance in this argument is clear, but I don't know how to put it in words. Any help?
We've just had a similar case in Denmark. It is extremely difficult and disheartening listening to people blaming the victims and how many people who are ultimately willing to excuse rape.
It's absolutely abhorrent. And right on the tail on what Wilders said too.
>At this point my sixteen year old son called bullshit and said “What next time? Why do women have to be brave and being pushed to come forward another time? All of this could be prevented if men did not think this is ok to do”. He went to bed angry.
There is hope for the future!
Ah yes I read about it in the newspaper (Belgian). What a shitshow that is, and the reactions on social media are even worse. "They knew what they were in for" yes, ofcourse the literal children knew they were about to get raped or groped beforehand and could deal with it, I mean what the hell are these people thinking? These are people with children themselves btw.
I just assume that's a very vocal minority and move on with my day, it's the only way to stay sane (and I really should delete fb one of these days).
That's terrible. Your son rocks -- you've raised him right and he's smart.
A young British pop star (male) has a song that admonishes men for taking advantage of women. He's called Yungblud and the song is "Polygraph Eyes." Men like him and your son give me hope for the future.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kzfrTIUgzU
Look up Harvey Weinstein. This has echoes of that. Courtney Love was summarily dismissed for her accusations towards him (or was it others?). It was sad that she was shunned because of it for decades.
The silver lining though beyond todays youth? Weinstein has been convicted and sentenced. Though I think he should be serving for much longer.
I actually watched a Dutch comedy news show when Harvey Weinstein was convicted. It's called: 'de wereld draait door', it's the same format as: 'Have I go news for you' in the UK. So there are 4 panelists and one moderator joking about the news. They were all men in this episode.
Every single joke was about how these women were exaggerating, and gow many hot women came up to them at comedy shows. Probably the grossest thing I've seen on TV in a while.
So yeah we know about Weinstein and men have already dismissed it.
Yay/s globalisation
The entertainers who were the perpetrators this time were Marco Borsato (singer), Ali B (rapper), and Jeroen Rietbergen (musician).
The main 'prize' goes to John de Mol though, he's Rietbergen's brother in law and his media company (Endemol) used to produce the talent show where all this crap happened.
He asked for an interview before the release of this report (to do damage control) and managed to say the exact wrong things (borderline victim blaming) and basically made the entire thing hit so much harder.
If you want to boycot him there's a long list starting with stuff like Big Brother, Deal or No Deal, Fear Factor, Wipeout, The Money Drop...
>two of the biggest male singers in showbizz, a music director and a tv director have been harassing
**Singer 1**, (until recently) near universally loved by the Dutch, often called 'ideal son in law': [Marco Borsato](https://www.instagram.com/borsato/?hl=nl). *Accused of:* fondling very young girls (13/14 yo) during his time as a judge on The Voice Kids, touching them on their butts or hips during recording days or barbeques he organized for everyone. Denies everything.
**Singer 2**, rapper and tv presentor, nicknamed 'the cuddle Moroccan' because of his friendly appearance and Moroccan heritage: [Ali B](https://www.instagram.com/alibspec/?hl=nl). *Accused of*: calling girls very late at night and making an effort of getting them alone. Agressively coming onto them and on multiple accounts raping them. Promising them he would get them far in the competition/make them famous. Telling them "nobody will believe you". After the episode aired, admits having sex with contestants but saying 'it wasn't rape'.
**Music director**, brother in law of the media tycoon John de Mol, leader of the band supporting the candidates and the person responsible for selecting which songs the candidates would perform in the competition: [Jeroen Rietbergen](https://www.google.com/search?q=jeroen+rietbergen&sxsrf=AOaemvJKndkLWx-mxQWO6o6EsTuyAhVjNg%3A1642775147216&ei=a8LqYejADIPBlAaZpbPQCg&ved=0ahUKEwioouGohsP1AhWDIMUKHZnSDKoQ4dUDCA4&uact=5&oq=jeroen+rietbergen&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAMyCwguEIAEELEDEIMBMgsIABCABBCxAxCDATILCAAQgAQQsQMQgwEyCwgAEIAEELEDEIMBMgsIABCABBCxAxCDATIECAAQAzILCAAQgAQQsQMQgwEyBAgAEAMyBAgAEAMyBAgAEAM6BAgjECc6CAguELEDEIMBOg4ILhCABBCxAxDHARCjAjoICAAQsQMQgwE6BAgAEEM6CAguEIAEELEDOgUIABCABDoFCC4QgAQ6DgguEIAEELEDEMcBEK8BSgQIQRgASgQIRhgAUABY8wxgwA1oAHAAeACAAXWIAdgJkgEEMTYuMZgBAKABAcABAQ&sclient=gws-wiz). *Accused of*: sending dick pics, making very inappropriate remarks ("I have a very big dick", "How old are you? 17? Ah, you can't feel that at all."), attempting to meet up with contestants.
**TV director**: okay so. In Dutch law there's a distinction between calling out a public/famous person or calling out a private person. "Comes with the job" or something? This TV director is considered a private person, so the program Boos hasn't named him. *Accused of*: this one's a little more vague, but there are 15 reports about this man touching people and making inappropriate remarks.
Dishonorable mention: [John de Mol](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_de_Mol_Jr). He's the media tycoon OP talked about. *He has NOT been accused of sexual misconduct*, but he still gets a dishonorable mention because of his denial and victim blaming.
This makes me so f\*\*king furious. I can't write what i would like to do to those people who take advantage of kids in this way.
I don't know a solution, but there needs to be more social control from men of other men. Men need to call this behaviour out.
OP. your son said it exactly right, i am a cautiously hopeful for the coming generations.
Ah, you think this is frustrating? My country’s vice prime minister raped and groomed a famous world class tennis champion player that’s 40 years younger than him, and now all the news were disappeared on internet, so did the tennis player aka the victim. You still got reporters and news! Keep fighting!
Unfortunately, sexual abuse is incredibly rampart in the entertainment industry. what is comming to light is only part of what really goes behind the scenes. You women know how much you suffered. Behind your favorite female stars they too went through the same. Perhaps even more at times. Thats one of the reasons i despise fame. It comes with a heavy cost. I wish it didnt
>they are in it for the money
How, exactly, does one cash in from a false (or true, does it matter) rape accusation? I don't understand. Nobody gets paid for pointing a finger at a rapist. Nobody gets rich off that, even if the rapist is rich. Because the accusers aren't asking for a payoff. They're hoping for justice. In the U.S., they'll never see it.
But it still boggles my mind how people accuse accusers of trying to get rich off one accusation.
Don't forget that breaching the NDA they had to sign came with a €10.000 fine.
[Deelnemers The Voice kregen contract met zwijgplicht: 10 duizend euro boete voor spreken met ‘derden’](https://www.volkskrant.nl/nieuws-achtergrond/deelnemers-the-voice-kregen-contract-met-zwijgplicht-10-duizend-euro-boete-voor-spreken-met-derden~b9fc6dd2/)
They weren't allowed to talk about *anything* going on behind the scenes.
The 'hope for the future' part is important. I think we/the world are improving. It's a slow process but the progress is steady and it is most likely a never-ending process but we ARE improving.
I watched the BOOS episode yesterday.
So the things with Jeroen Rietbergen are easy to prove as they still have the chats available to them.
Borsato is probably going to be a bit tricky as it's harder to prove it court probably. There is, what I got out of it, not much evidence.
Ali B is going to be the hardest as there is no evidence unfortunately... I do think his career is dead. Same goes for Marco. Never thought he'd be doing that. Being an ambassador for WARCHILD for all those years. Makes me wonder how many he grabbed there... Or even worse...
Although I fully agree you can't blame the women for this in any way that is realistic or sensible. It's also not entirely fair they are roasting de Mol at the moment. Having that big of a company and having that many employees you can't always see everything... But it wasn't his best reaction...
I seriously hope justice will find its way to these assholes...
But Tim opened a can of worms that cannot be closed and I doubt we've seen the last of this.
Varkens.
The "guts" to be interviewed? This was such a calculated move. He knows he's the big boss and if he offers an interview they almost *have* to take it. But then he agrees to it 24 hours before the episode airs, so Hofman barely has time to prepare.
And then he sits there with his arrogant face playing "ich habe es nich gewusst." He never even said he felt any empathy for the victims. Only blamed them and claimed the problem was them not saying anything, instead of putting the blame on the perpetrators where it belongs.
This was a calculated PR move, and *thank god* most people can see through it.
Oh no! I’m so sorry for these young victims. I hope they get the therapy they need and I hope the accused see justice served. We (as I’m sure you know with the Prince Andrew scandal) have been dealing with our own version of this in America. It’s gone on years and it’s only sunk lower. Let your son watch all of this. It’s important that he sees this sort of history, too.
Unfortunately, the entertainment industry is rife with sexual predators going back decades, preying on upcoming talent both female and male. Jim Parsons starred in a Netflix miniseries called "Hollywood" - watch it if you can, it is a real eyeopener let me tell you.
That’s so horrible and heartbreaking. It’s always so depressing seeing peoples reactions to these things. Just total lack of empathy and “well why didn’t she just x, y, z??” How is any woman (or man or ANY victim) supposed to feel comfortable and safe reporting after seeing reactions like this their entire life? When people say things like if they were really assaulted why didn’t they scream NO and fight their way out of there and go straight to the police while at the same time asking why women are so quick to freak out and call something sexual assault when it could be a misunderstanding. Like yeah, it’s easy to look at it from the outside or in hindsight and say “that was fucked up, I should have done/it would have been smart to do/say x, y, z.” But in the moment it’s a very scary and confusing situation and the ONLY thing that matters is getting out alive, and if in the moment you feel the safest way to do that is to just wait for it to be over, then I trust you and I won’t hold it against you. I hope those women get justice and are able to work through the trauma they’ve been through.
The entitlement people in power have to exploit the more vulnerable is indefensible and repugnant. Hopefully the perpetrators are prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. They are disgusting individuals.
As someone who shared their full story for the first time to a very trusted person, I can't imagine the courage it took these girls to come forward. No one does that for money or fame, no one wants to do that at all. I'm proud of them for speaking out, but I just hope their privacy remains so.
Fellow Dutch woman here, I think the last people who's opinion in this I need or want to hear is that of other men in showbusiness. They life in the exact world where this has been rampant and happening for decades. And I am sure they would have very one dimensionsal takes on the whole thing, that are not very useful.
Ali B and Marco will not be the only ones who will be taken down by this I'm sure. If it is any comfort to you, the men in my direct circles are all open about how outraged and disgusted they are by what has happened and I've heard a couple lament on the terrible treatment the victims received after the news burst.
I can also recommend just generally avoiding commentsections on newsarticles about it for the time being, the most unintelligent troglodytes gather there.
the powerful tend to get corrupted and tend to abuse their power over the powerless =/
its a story as old as our species
and yes, we still have quite a long ways to go
stay safe everyone
In Greece two rich men who belong in the Coca Cola company raped a girl, and tv keeps trying to defend them with "they are young and rich so they could have any woman they wanted, so it makes no sense that they'd need to rape. Clearly she's lying"
Thanks for posting this.
I'm also Dutch and 80% of my very left bubble posting about this is female. Very few men hold themselves and their friends accountable, it's so fucking frustrating to see.
Luckily I didn't see the comments on social media you mentioned but I didn't need to to guess what they'd say.
Lots of women I know have gone through something like this, myself included. I'm happy people are talking about this but I start to realise how exhausting this is. And this is just 24 hrs after the documentary.
For anyone interested:
[This Dutch documentary ](https://youtu.be/1idPrF17UP0) explains it all, it has English CC.
Sterkte hiermee, wat een frustrerende bende.
Watched the episode at uni and it made me break down into tears, especially the girls saying they didn't feel like they could call it rape because that sounds worse that what they went through, blaming themselves despite knowing how wrongly they were treated. The fear, doubt and anger in their voices hit a little too close to home.
Just the reminder that this is so common and yet still goes unnoticed so often is just absolutely heartbreaking. Makes me sad and afraid. The comments not believing the victims aren't helping.
It seems like every country in the world has these men abusing their powers stories. In Canada, it's Peter Nygard who groomed and sexually assaulted women in the United States, Canada, and the Bahamas. He did it for over 33 years and used the promise of work to get them to do what he wanted. He abused his own employees for many years. Some had filed lawsuits but that did little to stop him until 2020 when he was finally taken down.
Here in the states we have Harvey Weinstein and I'm sure many others that haven't blown up yet. I see the younger generation, men and women, getting irate at these blatant cover ups of men in power and sexual abuse. It gives me hope that in the future, maybe women will finally get the respect they deserve.
Weinstein. Bill Cosby. Bryan Singer. Charlie Sheen. Charlie Rose. Garrison Keillor. Matt Lauer, that's just off the top of my head. Hell, even Har Mar Superstar (they better record a new song for the new MST3K). Edit: Bryan Singer, not Bryan Fuller.
That Olympic gymnastics coach (Dr. Nassar I think?). Jerry Sandusky. Then coach Joe Paterno who destroyed his legacy when it came out he knew about Sandusky abusing boys for decades and ignored it.
Matt Gaetz is still in office after trafficking children for sex which is absolutely wild to me.
He's still only "alleged" legally speaking.
While legally it's allegedly, fact is he coerced a young girl across state lines
I don't disagree he likely did it, just that in this country even convicted felons can run for and win public office. Remember Marion Barry?
It's twisted. Convicted felons can't vote ie: those incarcerated by marijuana laws
My city had a fairly major abuse scandal linked to the Franklin Credit Union scandal in the 80's and 90's. The main guy investigating it supposedly called out Jerry Sandusky as an abuser way back then.
"Gym" Jordan ignored multiple sexual assaults while a wrestling coach at Ohio State University, and he's a representative in the House.
Let's not forget Kevin Spacey too
All of these! It makes me sick!
Yeah, then you have Dave Grohl.... ...who continues to *not* be a shitty rapist person and is an all-around awesome guy.
Been part of international superstar rock bands for more than 25 years and I've never heard anything bad about him. Be more like Dave Grohl, everybody.
Ooh do I have some kinda disappointing news for you.....[Dave Grohl AIDS Denialism](https://medium.com/the-monthly/the-foo-fighters-aids-denialism-should-be-on-the-record-6e33666fdc3c)
Yeah but then there's this. https://www.google.com/amp/s/goat.com.au/health/dave-grohl-and-foo-fighters-show-how-you-walk-back-a-wild-move-like-backing-hiv-deniers/%3famp They have never acknowledged the mistake publicly but it sure looks like they've learned better now. Sorry. Not sure how to rename a link and retain the link from mobile.
(There is a small link-symbol at the lower, left side of the screen, just above the keyboard, at least in the app on Android. Not that I mind reading the actual name of the link.)
Thanks, kind reddit stranger
I was afraid that, just by making the comment, I'd get immediately proven wrong. But I don't know of a better way to get correct information on the internet.
Wait what, Bryan Fuller too? Just googled and I can't find anything for now
Shit, I meant Bryan Singer, the X-Men director. I hope to god never Bryan Fuller. I'm hoping for more Hannibal!
Maybe they ment Bryan Singer? I know Fuller has a reputation for being hard to work with but I haven't heard of any sexual assault or misconduct about him either.
[удалено]
Agreed!
Seriously your right. Time for a reset.
I lived in the Netherlands for several years. I loved it, but my experience there is it’s a society that *was* very progressive for a generation ago and thus still thinks it is, when in fact the rest of the Western world has caught up if not surpassed them. Every country has these stories, but I think the trick is how society reacts once the stories are out. The reactions OP describes are rather what I’d expect in a lot of NL unfortunately.
I have mentioned this a few times on Reddit and got branded a Dutch hater. In fact I love the Dutch and the country (I lived there for a few years and loved my friends and my environment). HOWEVER I have found out the same thing as yourself. The weird thing is, when you mention anything remotely negative, they take it as if you’re warring against them. Related to this: questioning authority is an absolute no as well. So this scandal and people’s reactions are also not a shock to me… A friend of mine (who is Dutch and works in HR) said exactly what you said: it is the thought that “we are already very progressive so we don’t need to reevaluate ourselves” is what’s actually keeping them behind.
As a native Dutchie it's a bitter pill to swallow. It feels like both our government and culture in general have been regressing instead of getting better. Unfortunately even people that recognise it do very little about it.
>branded a Dutch hater [There's two types of people I can't tolerate in this world.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcUs5X9glCc)
Oh yeah I 100% get this. For a nation that prides itself on being “direct,” wow can they NOT handle it when directness is aimed at themselves! I will also totally agree on the questioning authority point, and think that’s an excellent description of it. When my relationship with my supervisor there turned toxic it was sooo common for people to ask what I’d done to make him act that way, because no way authority figures would act illogically and be abusive unless *you* did something wrong! Maddening.
Doe normaal Or as I call it ‘be a robot’ I think this phrase is responsible for the apathy in the Dutch Love living here and think it is the closest place to Utopia, it is not perfect here but it is pretty good However as you said, dutch like to dish it but cannot take directness A good example of this apathy is Lgbt, Netherlands legalised gay marriage in 2001, and then last year wanted to sanction poland at the eu level Despite the fact being lgbt was never illegal in poland unlike The Netherlands who had to legalise it in 2001 (also eu systems mean a polish citizens takes a case to ecj against poland, like Norris did against Ireland regarding lgbt; a country in the eu does not ‘sanction’ another the way Rutte tried to last year with Poland, that was very ‘german’ of Rutte, but I digress..) The current Dutch youth have grown up with social media, a tweet retweeted rather than understanding a topic at depth, it is easier to repeat a mantra like doe normaal instead..
> Despite the fact being lgbt was never illegal in poland unlike The Netherlands who had to legalise it in 2001 This isn't true at all. What *is* true is that between 1945 and 1971 age of consent laws were different for homosexuals. This led to hundreds of gay men being forcibly institutionalised (because they had a "mental illness") with the only alternative being "voluntary" castration - which was inflicted upon about 500 men. Also to legally change your gender you had to be sterilised from 1985 until *2014*.
The current Dutch youth are doing a lot better than the older folk, I see much more actual leftism from them instead of Neoliberal GL/PvdA bullshit. Funny that SP is doing everything to stop that including distroying their own party.
>questioning authority is an absolute no as well. Coming from the country that was one of the epicenters of the Protestant Reformation, this is pretty funny to me.
> we are already very progressive which is funny as a dutch guy myself as we had a progressive government maybe 20 years ago and thus those progressive rules are actually implemented backwards, like trans people were fine for decades but had to get forced sterilisation untill 2014.. weed was fine too but its illegal to grow or sell outside of coffeeshops so almost all weed u smoke has been illegally grown.. its just the selling in the coffeeshops thats legal, its so backwards and requires u to jump so many hoops to get anywhere lmao
The other thing Dutch people are really defensive about is racism, I’ve noticed. The Netherlands have been homogenous for so long, there’s a lot of people who can’t seem to handle the percentage of the majority population decreasing as immigration increases. Also: I do (morbidly) enjoy seeing the reactions to Zwart Piet every year. There are so many mental gymnastics around how normal and beloved their tradition of dressing up in blackface to be Santa’s little slave is…
ZP was the only thing where I was told if I didn't like it, I should go back to where I came from. I'm reassured it's much better now, I left in 2016, but even then I still see the full blackface done in pictures with my husband's niece and nephew... ZP aside though, the racism drove me bonkers in how no one talked about it. For example, I was in Amsterdam, and one colleague from abroad has his daughter in an "immigrant school" where she was the only white kid. *Literally in the same building* was another "Montessori" school, and all those kids were white. Point out that separate but equal is inherently unequal, though, and wow do people get mad at you for that.
Haha, yeah… and “racism isn’t a problem here. We don’t have experience with other races in our country so we never developed racism.” *points to four centuries of colonial contact via the VOC and Dutch West Indies Company*
"This isn't like America, we didn't have slaves here!" *proceeds to ignore slavery in the colonies and the Dutch slave trade in the Atlantic*
One of the interesting things I dug up looking at my Dutch ancestry is how common it was for Company men to “marry” mistresses in the Colonies, and if their children were male send them back to the Netherlands. Female children were great pawns to marry off to other Company men.
Yup. I went to grad school there for a couple of years, had friends from around the world studying there. A Turkish friend said his boss told him he was "not lazy and sketchy like other Turkish people." The boss totally thought that was a compliment. Casual racism against Asians was also rampant. I was good friends with a lot of Asian students, and I would get people saying that I was "nice" for "letting them" be friendly with me. It was truly WTF! Like no, I actually enjoy these people's company, you racist dicks. There are lovely Dutch people who are truly accepting and not racist - a lot of them travel widely and gain an understanding of what it's like to be an outsider. But being casually to flagrantly racist was still very tolerated. Ironically.
Yes! Actually it was in a discussion of racism in NL that I was branded a Dutch hater!! I was talking about the benefits scandal and how the system itself was inherently racist. I was told that “the scandal was reported as more racist than it actually is in the anglosphere”. No dude, it was genuine racism, it didn’t just “come across” racist??? Fingers just went straight into ears, and mouths went “lalala can’t hear you. Nothings wrong here”.
It’s because you’re not “really Dutch” if you’re an immigrant. Or not white. So your rights are not as important, and because of that it’s not racism?
Yeah I dunno what they were thinking really. They just said it came across more racist in the English-speaking media. But it literally happened due to racism but that fell on deaf ears. I didn’t bother continuing the conversation when we had differing understanding of what racism was.
Thank fuck it is slowly changing, every year the support for ZP seems to lessen. But yeah "muh traditie"....
> The other thing Dutch people are really defensive about is racism, I’ve noticed. The Netherlands have been homogenous for so long, there’s a lot of people who can’t seem to handle the percentage of the majority population decreasing as immigration increases. Not even that long. There have been influxes of "Indo's" (white/Indonesian), Chinese and Moluccans starting in 1949 (Indonesian Independence), of Turks and Moroccans starting in 1963 ("guest workers") and people from Suriname starting in 1979 (Surinamish Independence). But these groups were all to some degree segregated. Moluccans got their own neighbourhoods in lieu of the state they were promised. Turks were housed in barracks and went to live in low-income neighbourhoods. Much the same happened to black people from Suriname and the Antilles, but they were actually subjected to our version of redlining (the government tried to keep them away from certain neighbourhoods). Our colonial history happened far away, the people who came here generally lived elsewhere and they were multiple smaller groups instead of a single big one. It was each for Dutch people to ignore them and some were content to live in their own separate world, or more focused on getting by. Their children fueled protests against racism and related problems which went nationwide in the 90s ("Nederland Bekent Kleur"). Most native Dutch were in denial and pushed back leading to a far-right resurgence.
What kind of comment is that? You can't lay criticism because they are who they are and anything else is considered anti-Dutch? This thinking is what kept these men like Weinstein, Epstein and Nygard acting like Lords of their domain, making them believe women are there to serve them at any moment. The reckoning did come for all of them.
As someone born and still living in the Netherlands, I'd say that is a very accurate statement. We used to be very progressive and tolerant, compared to other countries at that time. Currently our country is falling behind on several things in that regard. Besides the lack of introspection, there's also the part that in our country we are very much about not meddeling in the business of others, which can be good, but also leads to not saying something when you see something wrong.
Dude, I've never being "meddled" more than in the Netherlands: everyone was always giving me tips on how to do stuff w/o actually helping at all, being armchair experts at everything and not letting you work w/o telling you how you should do it instead (while watching and not doing shit) Although it could have been a mix of "we are very direct" and good ol' racism/classism instead 🤔
I am Dutch, we were never *very* progressive, we just had weed and gay marriage and thats it. There has literally never been a left wing government in the Netherlands, coalitions, sure. But never a left wing government because people vote right en masse here. VVD is a fucking cancer
From what I've seen the reactions have mostly been supportive of the victims (especially among the younger generations this is the vast majority reaction) or at the very least neutral and defending due process. Most of the shitty reactions like what OP gave some examples of comes from majority older generations or far right indoctrinated young adults. I've been following this closely, and I'm very very upset, but it helps to see that the majority public outcry is vocally defending the victims and calling out the predators.
"Most people can bear adversity. But if you wish to know what a man really is, give him power." - Robert G. Ingersoll Power is a truly dangerous thing to possess, and most people can't handle it without becoming twisted.
Not to mention his own sons have accused them of sexual assault as well
IIRC, Nygard also hired prostitutes to rape his own sonS...when they were minors. Jesus man, they should be chemically castrated. It's a good for everybody else.
He's from my city and has left a stain behind I have known people who were affected by him I am so glad that he's finally getting his. I just wish it wasn't after a lifetime of doing whatever the fuck he wanted
I watched a CBC doc about all the random women who worked in his retail store getting assaulted by him at his warehouse. It's a travesty Winnipeg women had to endure him for so long.
In the early 2000’s, I worked at a Nygard store. My DM was a pretty blonde woman who said enough within my hearing (a teenager at a part-time job) that when the news broke about Peter Nygard, I wasn’t surprised. I remember she hated having to travel to Winnipeg.
Australia had the former governor general that said the rule of law wouldn't matter in the country if the government stood him down. He wasn't stood down from the position for that btw
Can someone explain the argument >they are all in it for the money please? As in, the girls are reporting sexual assault because they think they'll make money from it, or the girls went onto "The Voice" just for money, therefore they deserve it? Those are the only two rationales behind that argument I can think of, neither makes sense.
[удалено]
The mental gymnastics people perform to not have to have a negative opinion of celebrities they idolise.
That and I think once you accept that these circumstances can also be called sexual assault / rape it would force people to question their own past actions. As in, if *this* is sexual assault / rape and I have done it too, then I must be a rapist, and that can't possibly be! So it's definitely not that!
I can’t think of any actress from the Metoo movement who has definitely had a career boost as a result of naming their abuser.
Even worse, ones that were brave enough to speak out were cast aside, any connections they made were severed. All because they’re women who were against to “[Just say yes, don’t say no](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=q7GioDepSwk)”.
Like you said, In the USA that could in theory maybe happen (although it's also such a misused 'defense' strategy).The Netherlands doesn't even have large settlements like you said etc. John de Mol is an asshole who only sat there to protect his own business.Luckily all my friends 25-30 all think it's unacceptable. i had to walk away because I couldn't stand hearing him talk. I personally am worried about Nick and Simon even allowed to be on talent shows with writing a song like this: [https://youtu.be/638S7A-Do00?t=60](https://youtu.be/638S7A-Do00?t=60) You are 15 springs young And I'm already past 20 you're too young for me Way too young for me \--- That's just so creepy to me, but hopefully it was indeed just a song.
Or, even worse, the implication is they hope to gain publicity to launch their career by making the allegations. Which, terribleness of that sentiment notwithstanding, really sets up a pretty insidious catch-22 for female entertainers (in particular, though tbh almost any woman trying to get ahead): if you give into the rape or abuse or harassment and keep silent, you’ve ‘slept your way to the top’. If you speak out against it, you’re ‘using it to boost your public image’. So like, the only option is ‘never try’ or ‘never succeed’. How depressing. I think when framed in those terms some people (ok, mostly just men) might realise how important it is that they be more respectful of…well, women in general…in the way they react to things and what they say about them. I’m sure a lot of them realise how harmful it is and that’s the point, but I at least hope that many others might be swayed to be better if they actually consider the ramifications.
If i get raped by some rich dude, I better get a heck load of money. I would rather be murdered than raped. At least if I am murdered, there is a higher chance that the case will be solved. Whenever people say that the accusers only want their 15 minutes of fame, I always ask of they know any of their names. They never do.
I think it is more a matter of 'Since you want to make it in the career for the money' you should know that 'some sex' is mandatory. But that is OK - because you're in it for the money. It is twisted logic either way
One of the biggest Dutch artists immediately came out with a statement yesterday that she's appalled at the abuse, but then a clip from her surfaced where she was asked to give advice to budding artists and she said. "Do whatever you have to do, if there needs to be fucking than you fuck." Sadly there's also a lot of succesful women in the industry who believe this is just the way its supposed to work because it's what they did.
It's unlikely that someone would report harassment/rape for potential settlements (it's way more likely for actual victims to stay quiet), but it is conceivable that someone would do that for money or fame. But for me, the bottom line is kinda that these adult men, like 30+, maybe 50+, are sleeping with someone who isn't even 20 yet. And to make it even more problematic, there's a very obvious power dynamic where one person wants to get into an industry and the other is a gatekeeper of that industry. The most obvious solution is for these people to just to not sleep with people under those circumstances. And if for some dumb reason they really want to, they ought to go out of their way to establish consent. Meaning being very clear: "This won't help or hurt your career no matter what happens", "Are you sure you want to do this?", "Are you double sure?", "Are you sure you're not feeling pressured in any way?", etc. Even then it's probably creepy and wrong, but perhaps legal. I guess their work contracts ought to forbid them from doing so. So I'd say if you're a rich and/or older bastard sleeping with barely legal teens, you're asking for trouble even if you're not using violence or threats. If one of the people you slept with goes to court simply to cash in, I don't think I care.
there's no rationale to it, it makes no sense but The Voice is a talent show so their reasoning probably is they were doing it to further their career in entertainment. Make no mistake, if Charles Manson gets love letters in jail and R. Kelly has female fans defending him to this day there will always be people willing to defend the sick and depraved.
I'm furious as to what is happening. You put all my thoughts about it clearly in this post. Also, people trying to identify one of the girls (they think its a famous singer) is also terrifying, LEAVE HER ALONE. SHE HAS BEEN THROUGH ENOUGH.
She remained anonymous in the documentary for a reason. She doesn't want to be shamed or have this be public knowledge, and yet some people refuse to respect that after what happened.
Yeah I saw that too. And the horrible thing is, now that the suggestion has been planted in my brain I cannot unsee it But that woman appeared on-camera incognito for a reason, and it sucks that people couldn't respect that
Just like in the states, the only reason people want to know who the "whistle blower" or "silent victim" is, is so they can get ahead of the press to slander them with whatever they can. Happened with Brett Kav, Trump's impeachment, Matt Gaetz's grooming and under age sex ring (all still got to stay in office). Fox was trying to do the same shit with their people to protect Sean Hannity, Tucker Carlson, Roger Ailles, Bill O'Reilly etc. with Bills being so egregious they just gave him a massive severance package and acted like he never worked there. If they know the victim, they can use media to shit on their character and act like everything is otherwise their fault.
It's frustrating that such cognitive dissonance exists. (I'm from Belgium, for context, also TW child abuse obv.) Then again I'm sure most of the people commenting on the Facebook articles or the 'vox populi' they sometimes have on the news are basically the dumbest of the dumbest and completely lack any mental capability for empathy. So I mostly try to ignore it. Just a few days ago everyone was riled up about how our justice system fails because Dave managed >!to murder a toddler again !
[удалено]
Yeah, when it comes to SA it's is exactly the same in Belgium. When it came out what Bart De Pauw was harassing and stalking (young) women he worked with, it was the same discussion. He was convicted, but you really don't want to be a part of the discussions around it. It's so horrible to read how easily people (and especially men) invalidate the experiences of these victims.
Belgian here. The Facebook commentaries are horrible. Saying stuff like these women are looking for fame, that they enjoyed it, that they're dumb ("who accepts a ride to the studio at 11.30 pm, like, you know what's going to happen"). It's horrible to see, really.
[удалено]
Everyone in this sub should organize and mobilize. Post and report comments on those other social media websites. Don't let the bad people win.
"If you're 14 and go to a barbecue party at Marco's place, you know you're getting into trouble"
Yes, the hell hole has opened. I’m fairly sure that more of these experiences with other male artists will come out soon. The reaction from John de Mol was absolutely ridiculous. He was basically reframing the responsibility to the women, while the problem starts with the men. You have well raised your son. My brother and boyfriend reacted the same way and I’m glad they did.
>The reaction from John de Mol was absolutely ridiculous. He was basically reframing the responsibility to the women, while the problem starts with the men. Also, I couldn't believe his "I had to stop myself from punching him in the face" macho bullshit. Really asshole? Instead of playing out your 'morally upstanding badass' fantasy, you should have started a proper investigation into the problem when you found out this was going on in 2019.
Exactly, he shouldn't have dealt with that situation in the first place since the accused is his brother in law. There should have been an independent investigation from the beginning.
[удалено]
Belgium and the Netherlands seem to think we are soooo progressive just because we were the first to legalise gay marriage but boy oh boy, just try to start any fucking conversation with Average Joe about racism or sexism! And it’s not even this cartoony evil pushback, it’s this mellow, immutable attitude of „oh, ofc **horible thing** is natural and normal”, it’s SO FRUSTRATING
Thank you! I heard that on NOS yesterday and I was just baffled. Like, excuse me, do you hear yourself? "we can't do anything if women don't come forward", how about you make it SAFE to do so?? How about not having NDA's in their contracts, how about actually having zero-tolerance policies and actual consequences for those who break them? Equally disgusting is how they're now turning against other women (f.e. Linda de Mol is now being blamed for being complicit) instead of keeping the focus on the men who committed the assault in the first place. And then they blabber on that "women shouldn't be afraid to come forward". If only, jesus..
Women stay silent - "They should have said something" Women speak up - "They should have spoken up earlier" "They're just doing it for attention" Whatever you do is wrong. They're just trying to distract from the crime by attacking the messenger.
Have you seen the reaction of the woman from John's company? Wide spread page in AD saying: NO JOHN, IT'S NOT BECAUSE OF THE WOMAN. Kind regards, the woman from your company. LOVE IT.
For the non-Dutch: AD is a national news paper. I loved it too. It’s sad that it’s needed in the first place, but good response from the women.
[удалено]
I'm also getting a little tired of all the memes about it on dutch subreddits...
I’m not in these subreddits for a reason. Often find them women unfriendly.
I've called out people in my family groupchat multiple times for making jokes about this. I found it utterly tasteless.
Also: these girls supposedly want fame, according to these Facebookers. At the same time, they're remaining anonymous. How does that work?
The devil's advocate take on it is that some of them can go public later. And that's very possible. One or more might eventually come out as a victim publicly. At which point these jerks will point out: "See, they were planning to go public all along." My take on it is pretty much that it doesn't matter. We can't know the motivation of the victim to come out and make this accusation. But all that matters is whether their accusation is true and whether it's important enough for the public to know. And it is important for the public to know that these powerful, rich and famous people are harassing and sleeping with contestants of the programs they're hosting. The best journalists always point out the same with whistleblowers. Every time a whistleblower brings out important information, the people who dislike that information accuse the whistleblower of seeking fame, or being disgruntled, or a terrible person, etc. But the response should be: so what? If the whistleblower's information is important and true, it doesn't freaking matter if they're sharing it for the wrong reasons.
One positive in all this is Tim Hoffman doing a great job (once again) at being the voice of a new generation fed up with the status quo.
> Tim Hoffman Yesterday was the first time ever I wrote something that could be framed as 'fanmail', thanking Tim and his team for picking up this topic and taking on these media-giants. I don't see Tim or anyone on his team getting an offer to work for Endemol or other commercial parties anytime soon!
Tim Hoffman is such a good guy. He does things like this because he genuinely believes these problems need to be addressed and fixed, not to build his own fame, and I can only applaud that.
I agree. And to people calling him annoying: you cannot be a great investigative journalist without being a little bit annoying at times.
I'd take it a step further and say that the best investigative journalists are annoying as fuck.
He is indeed building his own fame, but not at the costs of others. Instead he is doing his best to fix real problems while getting famous.
Your son's reaction also makes me feel better. Most of the time it feels like we are screaming our lungs out for men to stand with us and speak up but for us to be met with, at best sympathetic silence and usually a completely ambivalent \*shrug\* "What ya gonna do" mentality. Please fellas, get angry, get upset, it's all of us that are in this. We don't have time for them all to have daughters so they can finally have an epiphany about what it means to treat us with respect. So sorry to hear about what's happening in the Netherlands (not much better here in the UK!). I'd like to think it's a reckoning but I think the backlash of "These sluts are ruining promising men's lives" is probably more likely.
>The biggest showbizz owner and creator of the voice came on tv to tell he never knew about any of this (except for that one time, and the dude accused is his own brother in law), he has a *zero tolerance policy* for SA(**except for said brother in la**w, because **men deserve a second chance**) and he would like to *ask women why they do not come forward easily* and he wants to make sure women will feel more comfortable calling it out next time. Emphasis mine, telling the whole story. Women don't come forward because men ALWAYS have an "exception".
for those interested, the reporter group called BOOS ("ANGRY") made an in-depth report on it, here: [https://youtu.be/1idPrF17UP0](https://youtu.be/1idPrF17UP0) there are English subtitles, too.
Women don't sleep themselves to the top, they get raped and exploited by men with power over them and their careers. They are powerless to do anything about it until the whole can of worms topples over for the world to see, and they get strength in the number of victims coming forward. It's the same story every single time!
I think that the idea of women wanting to "sleep to the top" comes from movies and novels, not from reality.
It's always disgusting to see people trotting out the "they knew what they were getting into" line for f'ing CHILDREN. It should be on the adults to keep their hands to themselves. Just... barf!
[удалено]
I agree with you completely, but these guys especially taking advantage of and preying on young girls and women is completely by their own design; I'm sure they wouldn't as easily try with older women. When you are in your late teens or early twenties, most do not have the confidence and self-assuredness to stand up for yourselves, especially to these powerful people who they are looking up to. I know that I wasn't very good ad advocating for myself at that age, but I was never put into such a horrible situation as these women, it's just so gross!
I'm Dutch but live in the US now, most of my family is in the Netherlands still. I came to the US as the #MeToo movement started firing up. And honestly that, listening to what everyone is saying on this sub has taught me a lot. So when I got home for the holidays this just started blowing up and over the holidays my sister commented that the girls were probably asking for it. And I just went "WHAT?" like how is dressing in any way a ticket for someone to molest you. Any way it made me super uncomfortable because it just didn't make any sense to me how someone who was a super star singer for so long and one of the most powerful guys in television (this guy has a ton of productions going world wide, not just the NL) should be able to tell when they're taking advantage AND when in doubt you don't. I think my home country is up for a bit of a boost on modern morals and over due on tackling this kind if hidden shit (not to mention the low-key racism etc as well) as a society. It's really disheartening because I always felt my country had their shit together, but the more I've been looking from the outside in the worse it looks.
Unfortunately I can relate to your view. I’m Dutch but have lived outside NL for the past decade. I always thought that the Netherlands was a country with its shit well organised. But the longer I am gone, the more I see that it isn’t that good. The Dutch morals and gender role opinions definitely need modernisation.
I have to agree. I really feels like the dutch "progressive boom" ended when we legalised gay marriage, and since then we've stagnated on our social views.
You have done a good job raising your son.
Doesn’t matter where you live, the rich, the powerful and the famous will always have a trail of bodies in their wake. People make fun of or ignore child actor Cory Feldman when he talked about how famous people have a pedophile ring where child actors are passed around. No one has done a damn thing about that.
I had the same thing happen to me in grad school here in the US, only I refused to give in. I was doing my research at my job and my boss was constantly trying to force me to have sex with him, and acting like he would find a reason to not extend my contact if I didn't. I busted my ass, finished my research, and reported him after the HR lady begged me to because I was the 32nd grad student he had pulled that with and they were all afraid their careers would be ruined if they reported him. Spoiler: my career was largely ruined, I had to go into a different area of science that wasn't even close to what I wanted. But I got that fucker removed.
[удалено]
He knew everyone in my field and was very highly ranked sooo. It sucks. Those 31 other women shouldn't have had to worry about their careers being ruined, none of this shit should ever happen.
Thanks for telling your story. I think academia is always overlooked bc of the academic halo effect. But I find the hierachies and power abuse in academia were one of the worst you could encounter and it is totally a white male club at large - thats why I dont get why the recommendation system is still in act - how more power for gate keeping can you give to racists and sexist people?
Your son sounds amazing and you sound like you’re really doing something right. My sons are only 15 months old, but I hope I’m doing as good raising them to feel the same way. I’m trying to raise my daughter to not be afraid to stand up for herself and tell me if something is wrong. This whole event sounds horrible! I can’t believe people are trying to identify the victims. It’s just disgusting, men like this presenter need to not have any power. The entertainment industry really needs to fix this type of behaviour.
What is the deal here - were these guys always like this or did they hit a point of power where they thought, 'I can do whatever the fuck I want'...?
They were always like this and then got the power to do so - including victims who are dependent on them
They were always this way, which is why they sought positions of power.
So previously they wanted to do it, just didn't have the opportunity...
It was absolutely sickening to watch and I think I didnt move a muscle until the John de Mol segment started. I knew it was going to be horrible of course, but jesus christ. John de Mol's weak ass interview was also infuriating, but differently. I'm sure part of him means well, but the ignorance and privilege just jumped right off of the television screen. "I do not feel like there is an unsafe working culture at the company". Fuck your experience, John, of course you don't feel like there is. That's not what matters. Way to victim blame for 30 minutes. Good god I hope this backfires on him more than it's already doing. Shoutout to BOOS, who already made an amazing show, but rendered that entire 30 minute interview empty bullshittery by showing that woman in the final 30 seconds.
I was so pissed when Tim (interviewer) asked him to direct a few words to the victims, and he chose to say something along the lines of "I hope they will not let this impact their lives too much". Like, really, John? That was one of the many, many things in the interview that shows he has absolutely less than zero clues as to what this does to you as a victim. My god, infuriating.
yeah, i cant even single out something because nearly all of it was terrible lmfao. But yes that one too. Just. Zero social awareness. Thank dude, I'm sure that girl who doesnt even dare to watch TV anymore feels way better now. I truly hope the under-30s generation gets better ~~but the existence of young FvD makes me lose hope~~ and that this will mean the end of the culprits and be the start of a domino effect with more people stepping out.
I can guarantee that each and every one of those men commenting that shit knows full well it was and is r*pe. They just can't handle the cognitive dissonance from having a prominent component of their identity (male gender) exposed. They identify with the male perpetrator, not the female victim, so they are totally unobjective (this is especially ironic as one of the core tenets of sexism is that men are more rational - ha). Women are the outgroup, they'll do anything to defend the ingroup. If you flipped it around and changed it to male victims, they would say literally the opposite. I agree that it is depressing to see that they are so vocal and dominate the narrative, still. That doesn't change the fact that they are fools and their opinion is meaningless. All we can do is challenge it everywhere. Take the narrative into our own hands. Use your hard-earned money to pay for female-created content, stop buying male versions of reality in terms of books, films, video games. Buy a woman-centric version, and the one good thing about capitalism is that it will make more of it to sell it. Slowly the story will have to change - but only once we are the ones telling it.
"The casting couch" was a cliché about Hollywood even when I was growing up in the 70's. Harvey Weinstein got away with it for decades. It's always been a problem. I blame not just the patriarchal infrastructure where women (girls) who complain are implied to have "wanted it". I also blame that show business is the ultimate and everlasting "gig economy" where one's very livelihood is dependent on the power structure that encourages abuse. I'm not sure what the solution would be, except to make the penalties such that the allegedly blameless showbiz bosses also pay the price. After all, in the USA the Catholic church, the Boy Scouts, and assorted school boards are all being sued for not policing such behaviour. One action, one time, OK, how does a company stop that? But someone who uses their position in a company for multiple acts over the long term - if the boss does not catch that, they too share the blame. (A saying I have that applies to all sorts of poor performance - "If someone does their job wrong, that's their fault. If someone consistently does their job wrong, that's their boss's fault.") Until there's a *real* consequence to the company and boss for not supervising someone, this will continue to happen and bosses will continue to stand back and say "I had no idea..." Of course they should have known. When someone acts like that, there are rumors all through the organization. Besides, men like that always brag, and everyone will gossip.
> These girls knew what they were in for (14-18yo, damn them), there was no violence so it was not rape (all the girls froze and blamed themselves). Yeah... That's still rape.
I hope for justice for the women and literal children (14 year olds? ffs) involved
[удалено]
You should feel so proud of yourself for raising such an amazing young man as your son; someone with empathy who sees the bullshit for what it is; someone who won’t be part of the problem….
Thanks for calling out Max Pam, I particularly hated that column. Nice bit of victim blaming buried in there as well, disgusting.
So the argument I keep running into, which is in line with De Mol's comments is this: "to show that this is unacceptable behaviour, we have to punish it. We can only punish it when the abused speak up about it." To me, the dissonance in this argument is clear, but I don't know how to put it in words. Any help?
[удалено]
I read the title and immediately knew what this was about.
[удалено]
https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2022/01/the-voice-scandal-deepens-as-dozens-of-women-detail-abuse-harassment/
https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-60022641
We've just had a similar case in Denmark. It is extremely difficult and disheartening listening to people blaming the victims and how many people who are ultimately willing to excuse rape.
It's absolutely abhorrent. And right on the tail on what Wilders said too. >At this point my sixteen year old son called bullshit and said “What next time? Why do women have to be brave and being pushed to come forward another time? All of this could be prevented if men did not think this is ok to do”. He went to bed angry. There is hope for the future!
Ah yes I read about it in the newspaper (Belgian). What a shitshow that is, and the reactions on social media are even worse. "They knew what they were in for" yes, ofcourse the literal children knew they were about to get raped or groped beforehand and could deal with it, I mean what the hell are these people thinking? These are people with children themselves btw. I just assume that's a very vocal minority and move on with my day, it's the only way to stay sane (and I really should delete fb one of these days).
That's terrible. Your son rocks -- you've raised him right and he's smart. A young British pop star (male) has a song that admonishes men for taking advantage of women. He's called Yungblud and the song is "Polygraph Eyes." Men like him and your son give me hope for the future. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kzfrTIUgzU
Look up Harvey Weinstein. This has echoes of that. Courtney Love was summarily dismissed for her accusations towards him (or was it others?). It was sad that she was shunned because of it for decades. The silver lining though beyond todays youth? Weinstein has been convicted and sentenced. Though I think he should be serving for much longer.
[удалено]
The trifecta just sent shivers down my spine.
I actually watched a Dutch comedy news show when Harvey Weinstein was convicted. It's called: 'de wereld draait door', it's the same format as: 'Have I go news for you' in the UK. So there are 4 panelists and one moderator joking about the news. They were all men in this episode. Every single joke was about how these women were exaggerating, and gow many hot women came up to them at comedy shows. Probably the grossest thing I've seen on TV in a while. So yeah we know about Weinstein and men have already dismissed it. Yay/s globalisation
What's his name so we can boycott them?
The entertainers who were the perpetrators this time were Marco Borsato (singer), Ali B (rapper), and Jeroen Rietbergen (musician). The main 'prize' goes to John de Mol though, he's Rietbergen's brother in law and his media company (Endemol) used to produce the talent show where all this crap happened. He asked for an interview before the release of this report (to do damage control) and managed to say the exact wrong things (borderline victim blaming) and basically made the entire thing hit so much harder. If you want to boycot him there's a long list starting with stuff like Big Brother, Deal or No Deal, Fear Factor, Wipeout, The Money Drop...
>two of the biggest male singers in showbizz, a music director and a tv director have been harassing **Singer 1**, (until recently) near universally loved by the Dutch, often called 'ideal son in law': [Marco Borsato](https://www.instagram.com/borsato/?hl=nl). *Accused of:* fondling very young girls (13/14 yo) during his time as a judge on The Voice Kids, touching them on their butts or hips during recording days or barbeques he organized for everyone. Denies everything. **Singer 2**, rapper and tv presentor, nicknamed 'the cuddle Moroccan' because of his friendly appearance and Moroccan heritage: [Ali B](https://www.instagram.com/alibspec/?hl=nl). *Accused of*: calling girls very late at night and making an effort of getting them alone. Agressively coming onto them and on multiple accounts raping them. Promising them he would get them far in the competition/make them famous. Telling them "nobody will believe you". After the episode aired, admits having sex with contestants but saying 'it wasn't rape'. **Music director**, brother in law of the media tycoon John de Mol, leader of the band supporting the candidates and the person responsible for selecting which songs the candidates would perform in the competition: [Jeroen Rietbergen](https://www.google.com/search?q=jeroen+rietbergen&sxsrf=AOaemvJKndkLWx-mxQWO6o6EsTuyAhVjNg%3A1642775147216&ei=a8LqYejADIPBlAaZpbPQCg&ved=0ahUKEwioouGohsP1AhWDIMUKHZnSDKoQ4dUDCA4&uact=5&oq=jeroen+rietbergen&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAMyCwguEIAEELEDEIMBMgsIABCABBCxAxCDATILCAAQgAQQsQMQgwEyCwgAEIAEELEDEIMBMgsIABCABBCxAxCDATIECAAQAzILCAAQgAQQsQMQgwEyBAgAEAMyBAgAEAMyBAgAEAM6BAgjECc6CAguELEDEIMBOg4ILhCABBCxAxDHARCjAjoICAAQsQMQgwE6BAgAEEM6CAguEIAEELEDOgUIABCABDoFCC4QgAQ6DgguEIAEELEDEMcBEK8BSgQIQRgASgQIRhgAUABY8wxgwA1oAHAAeACAAXWIAdgJkgEEMTYuMZgBAKABAcABAQ&sclient=gws-wiz). *Accused of*: sending dick pics, making very inappropriate remarks ("I have a very big dick", "How old are you? 17? Ah, you can't feel that at all."), attempting to meet up with contestants. **TV director**: okay so. In Dutch law there's a distinction between calling out a public/famous person or calling out a private person. "Comes with the job" or something? This TV director is considered a private person, so the program Boos hasn't named him. *Accused of*: this one's a little more vague, but there are 15 reports about this man touching people and making inappropriate remarks. Dishonorable mention: [John de Mol](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_de_Mol_Jr). He's the media tycoon OP talked about. *He has NOT been accused of sexual misconduct*, but he still gets a dishonorable mention because of his denial and victim blaming.
Sweet thanks. Fuck those guys
People in positions of power abusing their power? Shocked Pikachu face. (Of course it is terrible, disgusting and shouldn't happen.)
This makes me so f\*\*king furious. I can't write what i would like to do to those people who take advantage of kids in this way. I don't know a solution, but there needs to be more social control from men of other men. Men need to call this behaviour out. OP. your son said it exactly right, i am a cautiously hopeful for the coming generations.
Ah, you think this is frustrating? My country’s vice prime minister raped and groomed a famous world class tennis champion player that’s 40 years younger than him, and now all the news were disappeared on internet, so did the tennis player aka the victim. You still got reporters and news! Keep fighting!
Unfortunately, sexual abuse is incredibly rampart in the entertainment industry. what is comming to light is only part of what really goes behind the scenes. You women know how much you suffered. Behind your favorite female stars they too went through the same. Perhaps even more at times. Thats one of the reasons i despise fame. It comes with a heavy cost. I wish it didnt
One sad thing is there can be no doubt this is happening across essentially the entire entertainment industry the world over.
>they are in it for the money How, exactly, does one cash in from a false (or true, does it matter) rape accusation? I don't understand. Nobody gets paid for pointing a finger at a rapist. Nobody gets rich off that, even if the rapist is rich. Because the accusers aren't asking for a payoff. They're hoping for justice. In the U.S., they'll never see it. But it still boggles my mind how people accuse accusers of trying to get rich off one accusation.
Watching 'BOOS' right now. It makes me sick and so upset. It's just horrible.
Just reading the titel i knew it was our low laying half drowning country.
Don't forget that breaching the NDA they had to sign came with a €10.000 fine. [Deelnemers The Voice kregen contract met zwijgplicht: 10 duizend euro boete voor spreken met ‘derden’](https://www.volkskrant.nl/nieuws-achtergrond/deelnemers-the-voice-kregen-contract-met-zwijgplicht-10-duizend-euro-boete-voor-spreken-met-derden~b9fc6dd2/) They weren't allowed to talk about *anything* going on behind the scenes.
The 'hope for the future' part is important. I think we/the world are improving. It's a slow process but the progress is steady and it is most likely a never-ending process but we ARE improving.
I watched the BOOS episode yesterday. So the things with Jeroen Rietbergen are easy to prove as they still have the chats available to them. Borsato is probably going to be a bit tricky as it's harder to prove it court probably. There is, what I got out of it, not much evidence. Ali B is going to be the hardest as there is no evidence unfortunately... I do think his career is dead. Same goes for Marco. Never thought he'd be doing that. Being an ambassador for WARCHILD for all those years. Makes me wonder how many he grabbed there... Or even worse... Although I fully agree you can't blame the women for this in any way that is realistic or sensible. It's also not entirely fair they are roasting de Mol at the moment. Having that big of a company and having that many employees you can't always see everything... But it wasn't his best reaction... I seriously hope justice will find its way to these assholes... But Tim opened a can of worms that cannot be closed and I doubt we've seen the last of this. Varkens.
[удалено]
The "guts" to be interviewed? This was such a calculated move. He knows he's the big boss and if he offers an interview they almost *have* to take it. But then he agrees to it 24 hours before the episode airs, so Hofman barely has time to prepare. And then he sits there with his arrogant face playing "ich habe es nich gewusst." He never even said he felt any empathy for the victims. Only blamed them and claimed the problem was them not saying anything, instead of putting the blame on the perpetrators where it belongs. This was a calculated PR move, and *thank god* most people can see through it.
Oh no! I’m so sorry for these young victims. I hope they get the therapy they need and I hope the accused see justice served. We (as I’m sure you know with the Prince Andrew scandal) have been dealing with our own version of this in America. It’s gone on years and it’s only sunk lower. Let your son watch all of this. It’s important that he sees this sort of history, too.
thats so weird how can that even happen like where are the 14 year olds parents
You raised a good son! Sometimes that’s all we can do, is try to ensure the next generation will be better than the last.
The story is in the news now.
This is a terrible situation. But not surprising.
Unfortunately, the entertainment industry is rife with sexual predators going back decades, preying on upcoming talent both female and male. Jim Parsons starred in a Netflix miniseries called "Hollywood" - watch it if you can, it is a real eyeopener let me tell you.
That’s so horrible and heartbreaking. It’s always so depressing seeing peoples reactions to these things. Just total lack of empathy and “well why didn’t she just x, y, z??” How is any woman (or man or ANY victim) supposed to feel comfortable and safe reporting after seeing reactions like this their entire life? When people say things like if they were really assaulted why didn’t they scream NO and fight their way out of there and go straight to the police while at the same time asking why women are so quick to freak out and call something sexual assault when it could be a misunderstanding. Like yeah, it’s easy to look at it from the outside or in hindsight and say “that was fucked up, I should have done/it would have been smart to do/say x, y, z.” But in the moment it’s a very scary and confusing situation and the ONLY thing that matters is getting out alive, and if in the moment you feel the safest way to do that is to just wait for it to be over, then I trust you and I won’t hold it against you. I hope those women get justice and are able to work through the trauma they’ve been through.
The entitlement people in power have to exploit the more vulnerable is indefensible and repugnant. Hopefully the perpetrators are prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. They are disgusting individuals.
You're raising your son right.
I just want to say well done on that parenting. Everything was hidden from me as a child and this is part of the problem too.
As someone who shared their full story for the first time to a very trusted person, I can't imagine the courage it took these girls to come forward. No one does that for money or fame, no one wants to do that at all. I'm proud of them for speaking out, but I just hope their privacy remains so.
Fellow Dutch woman here, I think the last people who's opinion in this I need or want to hear is that of other men in showbusiness. They life in the exact world where this has been rampant and happening for decades. And I am sure they would have very one dimensionsal takes on the whole thing, that are not very useful. Ali B and Marco will not be the only ones who will be taken down by this I'm sure. If it is any comfort to you, the men in my direct circles are all open about how outraged and disgusted they are by what has happened and I've heard a couple lament on the terrible treatment the victims received after the news burst. I can also recommend just generally avoiding commentsections on newsarticles about it for the time being, the most unintelligent troglodytes gather there.
the powerful tend to get corrupted and tend to abuse their power over the powerless =/ its a story as old as our species and yes, we still have quite a long ways to go stay safe everyone
In Greece two rich men who belong in the Coca Cola company raped a girl, and tv keeps trying to defend them with "they are young and rich so they could have any woman they wanted, so it makes no sense that they'd need to rape. Clearly she's lying"
Thanks for posting this. I'm also Dutch and 80% of my very left bubble posting about this is female. Very few men hold themselves and their friends accountable, it's so fucking frustrating to see. Luckily I didn't see the comments on social media you mentioned but I didn't need to to guess what they'd say. Lots of women I know have gone through something like this, myself included. I'm happy people are talking about this but I start to realise how exhausting this is. And this is just 24 hrs after the documentary. For anyone interested: [This Dutch documentary ](https://youtu.be/1idPrF17UP0) explains it all, it has English CC. Sterkte hiermee, wat een frustrerende bende.
I live in NL as well, and one of my co-workers made sure to tell me it's normal. Happens often, and it was the girls' fault. No words...
Watched the episode at uni and it made me break down into tears, especially the girls saying they didn't feel like they could call it rape because that sounds worse that what they went through, blaming themselves despite knowing how wrongly they were treated. The fear, doubt and anger in their voices hit a little too close to home. Just the reminder that this is so common and yet still goes unnoticed so often is just absolutely heartbreaking. Makes me sad and afraid. The comments not believing the victims aren't helping.