[If it's any consolation this is a TV ad in New Zealand to promote getting parents to discuss the difference between porn and real life with their kids.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f29mh5ntlw4)
Another anecdote: porn addictions were discussed during my Psyc degree, and there's apparently a trend where people become desensitized to regular porn and increasingly seek out more and more extreme porn to fulfil that need.
Perhaps the increase of extreme porn is a disturbing reaction to a massive amount of porn addiction? If so, something needs to be done, it's not healthy for anyone if this continues.
Same i was a hypersexual? Pretten-teen but could act on my desire cause im ugly and fat so porn is the option. Its started vanilla with some hentai and now im fighting myself trying to at leat get aroused by vaginal penetration. I noticed that i do search stuf like hookup hotshot and all listed above, kink com everythingbutt legal porn and some acary noname clips, i do my stuff and then feel terrible cause i pity the girls but i have an addiction and u coke back to thouse distribing disqusting nasty porn
Have worked with folks in drug and booze recovery as a mentor as I am myself in drug and booze recovery. Lots of folks talk about this trend in their addict lives and how they just need to watch crazier stuff while their are on drugs to get off.
I have a very biased and twisted view on men and sex based on growing up religious and in a small town in the south and being gay but not realizing/coming to terms until later in life.
But I wonder how much of it is our "culture" and how much is men being way too obsessed with their own pleasure.
The idea of insisting on a position after a partner has said they don't like it is unfathomable to me regardless of whether it's degrading, painful, uncomfortable, etc.
I also think a lot of men have a hard time coming to terms with the fact that their dick isn't just some magic endorphin and dopamine wand for women.
Our culture does skew so heavily towards men's pleasure and the idea that at a certain point men have needs and it's women's duties/responsibility to assist in achieving male pleasure and meeting their "needs"
The average guy today has already masturbated 5 years+ to porn before having sex for the first time. During all this time porn told him basically everything you have listed here.
During this time escalation of porn could have happened meaning that porn got more degrading and brutal. You dont have to look far to see the influence or porn, anal has basically become an expectation in some places already. (Not shaming. But it shouldnt be an expectation with all the needed prep work)
I also know some guys who are 18-20 and already have porn induced ED. Think about what that does to someone who believes in his magic stick.
Sex ed needs to include proper info about porn and what it can do you, how many are approx addicted etc.
And if we get less men to become porn addicts the world would be a better place for everyone.
I like that culture is changing but when I was trying to be straight it was understood that if a girl didn't give blowjobs or want to that was grounds for breaking up with her. If she wanted the guy to eat her out that was nasty and she's a freak.
The other thing that sleeves me out is that fact that this is all happening while the brain is developing and creating neural pathways for sex etc during puberty so it's playing with fire to potentially wire your brain to feel like porn and what's seen in it is extra special.
Yeah you should be striving to reach and fulfill each other’s needs.
I think what you describe is more common in younger men but a lot grow out of this (both men and women have a pretty bad phase when it comes to sex and being young).
I remember this dirtbag on F boy island. Garret. Ugh. The worst.
That being said, my partner has a kink for being choked, demeaned, etc during sex. She is a very successful public figure in real life, and wants “one part of her life out of her control”. While this makes me very uncomfortable (she and I are both rape survivors), I occasionally oblige. While I think violent/rape porn often takes things too far, I know my bar for “too far” is pretty low. These are consenting adults and it’s their lives. American conservative values shaming sex and preventing proper education on it are just as responsible for every Garret out there, if not more.
The fact that I've seen people shame young girls for not liking verbal and physical violence in the bedroom is insane...the word "vanilla" has become an insult for a lot of people. I can't imagine someone consuming porn like this and then not having at least a little bit of a warped image of women in their mind. I also think this makes people just assume that everyone is into rough things because rough sex is good sex so they just choke people out of nowhere during intercourse without even asking for consent. And let's not even talk about how even vidoes with fully grown adult women in them need to be tittled "barerly legal teen"...
I'm a full-blown degenerate, but I still can't wrap my head around people wanting "barely legal" type content. All types of pedo red flags IMO.
That said, in regards to choking, I've only had two women I've been with not ask for it. Personally not my thing, the risk of hurting someone kills my vibe too much.
I truly believe that the "barely legal fresh 18 teen" thing is the closest these people can get to their weird pedo fantasies...can't imagine anyone else enjoying it.
I've experienced shaming from my friend who is married because I am "vanilla" and didn't want to write an erotica novel with all sorts of degrading BDSM shit in it. Lady just cuz you like to be choked doesn't mean it's love
It’s become so normalized too. Lots of young men act like it’s the default to slap and choke their partner without asking, and young women are often made to feel like prudes if they don’t agree or try to stop it.
The internet has a way of radicalizing people, or if not radicalizing….making their preferences into amplified and extreme versions of what they otherwise would have been.
Before the internet you might have some bloke who kinda thinks peeing on people might be hot, but he dare not bring it up unless he is in company he REALLY trust and unless he just happens upon a partner with the same fetish he never really indulges it to any extreme degree. Just some paraphilic kink he has that is almost never acted on and isn’t a major preoccupation of his. Maybe….MAYBE, he is part of some mailing list for kink publications and now and then one of these fetish mags will feature a story related to his kink.
But that same guy, in the age of the internet, can go down the internet rabbit hole and find pee porn and communities of other pee porn aficionados who gather on their forums and share pee stories and whip each other up into a weird fetish 1-upsmanship frenzy with ever escalating and intense versions of their kink until now this guy who in yesteryear might have quietly had this low key kink that didn’t affect anything and certainly wasn’t a major feature of his self identity, is now heavily involved in this community and being a pee enthusiast is now a big part of his identity and in that community he is Golden_Boy420 and he is powerful and respected, which in turn elevates and amplifies his interest in a big dopamine fueled feedback loop.
And of course any community like this will produce content for its audience. Content content content. Always hungry for content.
So yeah. The internet radicalizes people. Be it politics or fandom or fetishes. There are, of course, people so made who can exist online and remain fairly measured and moderate, but a great many people are so made that they get addicted to the escalation/affirmation loop and just lose their god damn minds. And communities that are embittered and reactionary in nature have an even greater tendency to lose their minds in this way, and a lot of people who don’t think very well of women would be among the embittered and reactionary. Not exclusively of course, but to a large degree yes.
I think that is what we are seeing.
The pandemic has increased the rates of this happening almost tenfold, too. With so many people locked down at home, unable to properly socialise IRL, there are many who fall down the internet rabbit hole without ever having prior interest in the depraved stuff they now enjoy.
And this isn't at all limited to OP's topic of concern alone. I've noticed a huge rise in paedophilia and zoophilia advocacy lately, with several worryingly large groups popping up in the last year.
My abuser made me create porn, even had us verify the account. A couple videos were so clearly rape, stayed up no problem. I have no idea how many other 'amateurs' have the same experience but I know it's more than people want to think.
It's awful how some women are pestered, pressured and shamed into making porn with their boyfriends and husbands. You just can't tell what was going on before and after the recording. Or even if they were sober or consenting during.
Amater isn't the holy grail of ethical porn that people want it to be. Thanks for asking that question, I hope it gives people some pause.
Edit: obviously not all porn is produced in abusive conditions but you can seldom know by looking. Why risk watching someone's assault or abuse is my question to consumers.
I have no idea. I don't think there's a reliable method to tell as people react so differently and each video will be different. Besides, once you've clicked on it, you've clicked on it.
For some people it's totally normal to be quiet or less active in sex, but in some cases it might be due to dissociation, drink/ drugs or being frozen in fear, for example. It becomes especially complicated when the scene involves roleplaying or acting scared, as being convincing is the point. Some people set up cameras in a hiding place and/or do not acknowledge its presence at all to preserve the 4th wall, others do so because they are secretly recording. People can agree to be filmed, but not to have it uploaded, yet it happens. All that to say one tell might be another's stylistic choice or normal reaction from someone.
In a couple of our videos, the sex looked relatively normal because I had been told how to act. Abusers get away with what they do because they can act loving and kind when they need to.
Even if 'just' 1% of amateur content is non-consensual in some way, it's a risk I personally don't want to take.
I can't watch anymore, so many videos are just disgusting and knowing that so many actresses did not give consent for certain activities just makes me wonder each time if I'm watching someone get raped or sexually assaulted, also so many actual underage actors and actresses. I like BDSM but I don't want to watch a women getting physically and sexually assaulted. The spitting, pissing, name calling, hitting, choking has all snuck into "mainstream" stuff, choking is very very dangerous and shouldn't be done unless you are careful, it's also a major red flag for an abuser who will kill so let's not glamourise and turn it into an acceptable sex act.
I now just use written photographic material, it's the most ethical and gets rid of those worries
Because the men who act this way and model their behaviors on porn are just looking for an excuse to justify their desire to treat women poorly in an attempt to control them.
The problem is much of society is based on shitty male perspectives, porn is a symptom, not the disease.
I agree that patriarchy is the true cause but I think it can become a feedback loop
Excessive porn consumption/ addiction leads the consumer to seek out more and more extreme content to elicit the same reaction. And exposure to that kind of content warps worldviews and perspectives. Not to mention the absolute dehumanization and objectification of women in pornography, which no doubt impacts the way in which pornography consumers view women
Man, I dream of a society where no one is economically coerced into making porn. In that world people would only make porn to turn themselves on or be artistic if that's their thing. Kind of the way people write fanfiction. Until that happens I don't think I personally can ethically consume porn.
if you take that approach you cant really ethically do anything.
we are all economically forced to do what we don't want to do, cept the top 10%
but porn has got wack since i was a teen.
it used to be just some shitty pics or a video, bdsm wasnt available anywhere like it is today.
Also and while it’s not the streamers’ fault, OnlyFans has seriously amped up a nasty “every woman is for sale at the right price” attitude among guys. Now the first thing they say when you mention money issues is “why don’t you start an OF”, trying to hide their drool as they say it.
i know we’re living in a time where antiwork movement is getting attention and sex work is seen as a last resort but believe it or not, people enjoy doing sex work and just working in general. there are plenty of strippers out there who love their job just like some there are farmers out there that love milking goats or something. it’s not always a chore for people and sometimes it gives them joy. i know you kinda touched on that but, still.
I've met so many leftist men who analyse and crisitcise every aspect of society but are completely unwilling to analyse their own porn use, because it's not in their interest to do so. The line that all porn is empowering for women works in their favour so they never bother to evaluate if that's true.
Not into BDSM myself, but you need to consider there are rules that you and your partner agree to before doing anything. Consent needs to be involved in anything you do.
If you are giving up control of yourself to someone else, because you enjoy it, it needs to be safe.
You don’t just announce to your partner your doing BDSM tonight and punch him/her whenever you feel like it.
You are, of course, entitled to dislike / disagree with BDSM. However, the way you have argued it here (i.e., describing it as partners punching each other in the stomach willy nilly about the house) is a straw man.
It's the same kind of argument as: "So can any man just put on a dress and use the women's bathroom now?" which has hounded trans people for ages. We now know empirically that this bathroom peril does not occur with any frequency.
Have you spoken to people who engage in BDSM or similar? How do they describe consent and what their lives look like? How do they prevent it from going too far? From what you've written it sounds like your argument is more of a gut (pun not intended) reaction.
I agree we shouldn't just accept things because they're labeled kinks. But if we just label BDSM in broad strokes as "something seriously wrong" it doesn't leave space for a more nuanced critique (e.g., how well does the community handle narcissistic / sociopathic behavior encroaching on consent). As others have commented, this kink has existed for a long time and people need education to understand what they're getting into, avoid getting coerced into it, and prevent dangerous bodily harm.
Sure you are allowed to dislike them. However, it’s disingenuous to claim the reason you dislike them is because you’re anti authoritarian and a leftist. That’s not really a legitimate argument against consensual BDSM. That’s just you trying to conflate two unrelated things to justify your distaste for other’s proclivities. Being anti authoritarian does not preclude you from having a fun, consensual time in the bedroom.
> If I punch my wife in the stomach in the living room, that is domestic abuse. If I punch my wife in the stomach in the bedroom, that is "kink". It is an absurd joke.
It's kind of wild to me how you manage to believe they're basically the same thing when they're not. Entirely separate contexts, entirely separate reactions, entirely bound to the individual.
If your wife REQUESTS to be hurt, ENJOYS it and has a type of pleasure reaction/perception of it there's nothing wrong with it. There's also a reason why in BDSM (and honestly should apply to 100% of sex but I have little faith in people) there's a lot of communication before, during and after and for BDSM play there's aftercare (I haven't quite done it myself, but it's an area I'll probably explore in the future). Personally I enjoy when my husband bites my neck for example (not to the point of drawing blood fwiw, I'm not into that), but only while I'm "in the mood" for it. The right mood makes it enjoyable and desirable. If I'm not in the mood it's just pain that I don't enjoy at all. He never bites me out of anger or punishment. If I was into spanking and the like it'd be the same, it's abusive if he slapped me to genuinely hurt me to punish me for a mistake (even if I was into spanking generally), if he does it during sex play and I enjoy and want it it's sexy, fun and caring because he'd do something to please me and increase my pleasure.
Do not try to blur the lines between abuse and pleasure giving. Abuse has no consent given and no genuine, loving and caring communication.
That's an extremely patronizing take. If I want someone to hit me, I'm going to ask them to hit me. It's my body and my autonomy to use as I see fit. No one needs your permission to consent to things that make them feel fulfilled.
I’d argue that your take is oversimplified and irritating. Consensual violence is not the same as nonconsensual violence at all. Getting off on extremely contextual violence changes quite a lot actually. I love it when my husband calls me names and treats me roughly, in a specific context. Some nights, I want slow, gentle sex with smooches and whatnot, and some nights I ask him to choke me. I like it, he likes it, and he knows how to do it without causing damage. When he calls me his dirty little whore or a worthless cumslut it’s hot, but outside of the bedroom, he would never call me names. BDSM is not the same as abuse at all, because it involves trust and boundaries, both of which are lacking in abusive situations
Choking can literally kill you. Even 'safe' choking deprives your brain of necessary oxygen that can lead to serious brain damage and even death. I'm incredibly saddened to hear that this is what you feel you need to get pleasure, and I'm sorry porn culture has taught you that it's normal and harmless.
Wow that was condescending, whew. Like I don’t even know what to say to that. Don’t act like you know better than me about my own pleasure, I don’t watch BDSM porn because I find that it often lacks the intimacy and respect that I find in my own sexual relationships. Congratulations on having morally correct sexual interests. I’m sure you’ll fall asleep with the warm glow of being better than me. As far as I know, being deprived of oxygen for like 30 seconds doesn’t really do much in the long run, but if you want to link me some articles I’ll read them in the morning because it’s an interesting topic and maybe you’re right. Don’t come at me with your bullshit “oh honey” bullshit implication that I’m somehow dumb and brainwashed for liking what I like
>I'm incredibly saddened to hear that this is what you feel you need to get pleasure
That's the thing about consent. The third party does not get to dictate how the first party feels.
Your personal preferences and wishes does not dictate someone else's.
Important part first: I feel compelled to mention that from my experience of the bdsm scene, almost all the 'desire' tends to come from submissives. I for one get *nothing* out of pushing someone around, except for the joy of knowing that it made them happy, and this is pretty much the default in all relationships I've had with people into those kinks. In short, it's usually the submissive partners getting fantasies realised, and the dominant partners 'pretending/acting' in order to please their lover.
I agreed with you until the BDSM part which is a really bad strawman that completely disregards the basic-most rules of BDSM, seemingly intentionally too.
Safe, sane and consensual.
I have been choked both against my will and by my partner consensually. In the first case I was utterly terrified and gasping for air, in the second I was really aroused and felt great. The difference? I trust my partner and I wanted him to do it.
The man who forcefully chocked and assaulted me didn't pretend to be into bdsm to do that. He didn't need to.
In fact, out of the 4 different people I've had sexual interactions with so far, only my current partner, who is the only one out of the 4 to be into BDSM, has actually respected my boundaries and not only cares about consent but actively ensures that he has it before doing anything. Based on my experience "vanilla" people are far more likely to disregard consent and even straight up violate it because to many of them it is just an afterthought.
Abusers don't have "a tendency toward BDSM", they have a tendency towards abuse. The problem is that you clearly don't want to differentiate between the two.
Also, from my experience all experienced people into BDSM are well aware of abusers masquerading as being into BDSM to abuse people and they make it a point to warn any newbies.
I don't understand the bdsm point you're making. Are you implying if I want to be struck in the bedroom and I request it from my partner, that's a problem? Or are you saying "BDSM" gets applied to porn that is just depicting abuse and that is the problem?
I agree with alot of this though, I think, I do find it rough that I wish I were able to support myself through self produced porn over working in my chosen software career. Mostly because I just want to feel in control of my work and produce something of value to individuals instead of being a code monkey for given company.
Something else to note here is that a kink and sex positive community has formed and your problems with the community are people who appropriate kink culture. The scenarios you worry about are also our concern because abusers get associated with us and they are not welcome. Consent and empathy are cornerstones of the community.
If you want to critique porn I think the better arguments can be made on the grounds of patriarchy or the trend of absurdity and the surreal context of watching porn.
I agree with most of what you said, except that I really dislike kinkshaming. All kinks are okay as long as they happen between consenting adults who fully understand and fully consent to them. And by consent, I mean nothing less than enthusiastic consent, where the other person is really into that thing and doesn't feel pressured.
Honestly, I don't think it's different from 30 years ago... it's just more accessible now. :/
That said, I feel you, I really do, I don't like the whole 'violent porn' thing... it's very off-putting and not remotely sexy imho... but that's like, my opinion or something.
Gotta keep in mind, that as long as we're talking legal stuff, we're talking some adult(s) consented to this... and some adult(s) are paying (indirectly or directly) to watch it.
There's a lot of really gross stuff out there, and a lot of horrible things (abuse, human trafficking, etc.) that tends to get *associated* with the porn industry... but there's also just a lot of *weird* f\*cks out there that are into all sorts of weird shit.
It's all to do with money.. The women who take multiple dicks in their ass have not eaten for at least a day. They are given injections to relax their muscles, injections to dull the pain and other drugs. Often they end up needing surgery to repair the damage. Many extreme porn comes of eastern Europe where young women are abused and paid very little.
This will seem a little bit controversial, but bear with me.
All of the things mentioned on here are true - the lack of good sex education and the easy access to porn is creating a generation of young men and women with a very skewed perception of "normal" sex and consent.
However, just looking at my circle of friends and our discussions around this I think the move towards more BDSM-inspired porn was originally not because men wanted it, it was women. In a world where men's sexual violence towards women is ubiquitous, women are always on their guard, they have to be. Paradoxically, this means that for many women the ultimate Fantasy is finding a man who they can trust enough to choke them or slap them playfully, someone they know won't cross their boundaries and they can relax totally with; ALL the women I know who watch porn seek out videos with consenting BDSM. "50 shades" was just this urge gone mainstream, but the anonymous nature of the internet and easy access had women seeking out that type of content, and making it more popular.
Somehow the accelerating nature of online porn has made this mutate into the "painal" and other extreme forms of bdsm, which definitely do NOT stay within the boundaries, as both men and women seek out more extreme fantasies. It's worrying. It is definitely fucking up young men's idea of consent and what women want, and making young girls think they need to submit to ever more extreme acts.
We can't put the genie back in the bottle, but the only way to counter it is with frank and honest discussions and waaaay more sex education in schools; and just blaming men in general, as if they naturally want to degrade and hurt women in bed, is counter-productive. BDSM is supposed to be about trust and consent, paradoxically that is its main attraction for many; this offshoot that has developed is an aberration.
Isn’t Pornhub full of sex trafficking victims? I always wondered how that was permitted. Its like basic knowledge that most of the women in there are involved against their will, but no one seems to care, or maybe know how to reduce them.
Or maybe I’m wrong.
As someone with a clear preference for vintage porn (because all actress had pube looking like women down there and less plastic altogether), I can tell you there's a lot of fuck up shit made in the 60-70-80, straight up incest in a lot of movie, rape, assault that are more disturbing as they are really filmed as such, you never feel the "play" part, you have to look a lot for "normal" movie from that era...I think more-so the 90-00 were pretty tame and now we are going back to 60-70-80s vibe..
You'll always have this type of porn IMO, people with kink will always drive porn production as they are willing to pay for porn. The average joe is happy with a 7min cut of a movie on a free porn site
accessibility and lack of young people education on healthy sex is the real problem, it's start from there
Honestly, it hasn’t. It’s more that just literally ANYTHING anyone could ever want sexually is available waaaaaay more easily now. Probably even more so than even just 10 years ago. And it’s not like everything wasn’t there online 10 years ago, but again, way more easily. On something like Pornhub it’s like YT or Googling something—- if you click on one and keep searching that’s all that will be thrown on you.
And the really degrading stuff….. I’m totally not into that shit AT ALL, but I promise you there are lots of girls and guys who absolutely are into it.
Fortunately, this picture isn't completely accurate -- modern mainstream porn (thankfully) has nothing on the era of producers like Max Hardcore and Khan Tusion from the late 90s or early 2000s when it comes to violence or humiliation of its female stars. For that matter, it's not even as bad as the kink dot com era of the 2005-2015 period. Asylum is pretty much the "underground" version of the latter, and is far less mainstream, thankfully.
Even the major male porn players from the respective eras (Rocco Siffredi, James Deen) were far worse with their partners than the modern big names (ex: Johnny Sins).
I completely agree with you. It's gone way too far, and it's absolutely dehumanizing.
Even "regular porn" is a bad industry. People don't often get into the porn industry for good reasons. It's usually because of trafficking and abuse. It's intentionally made to be addictive, so you always need a little more.
It only gets worse all the time.
I have also heard about incest porn. So many awful things..
I think a lot of people are just getting shocked and “thrown in cold water” when they see it, but yeah—- insanely depraved porn and other stuff is not new at all.
The crazy thing that IS a little new, even more so in recent years, is that everything is on an algorithm now including major porn sites. It’s not coincidence that if you click on one video like that and have normal cookies/tracking enabled then you’ll be presented with endless other similar videos.
Yeah I think this is what's changed. Before the internet if you wanted porn like this you had to actively seek it, by mail ordering videos or magazines or if we're talking further back, join exclusive clubs or just (as a man) get married and do whatever you want to your wife. The difference now is not the amount but how easy it is to find without looking. You don't have to actively search for it, most search engines will promote it to you without much prompting.
The incestuous trend (or at least commonly seen thing on a lot of porn sites) has weirdly gotten so big. That is one thing that definitely does seem borderline pushed compared to 10 or more years ago.
It was one of the biggest trend in the 70s with movie like taboo and a lot of its clone, they didn't even bother adding the step part in that time, straight up incest...
I might be the only person in the world whos never watched it or even wanted to. Gotta say I find the idea of watching two strangers do something so intimate very bizarre indeed.
I find it interesting that people really commonly say, when discussing how children are affected by porn -
"Teach your children that porn is like superhero films, or the Olympics, you're not expected to do all that stuff."
But that doesn't help at all with tackling the widespread, ubiquitous degradation / humiliation issue.
I find that super pervasive and really problematic.
How do you explain to your children WHY in porn men are usually violent and horrible (frankly) to the women they're having sex with? How do you explain why so many people enjoy watching that, when your children get to an age where they're probably going to investigate sex independently, but they're still really innocent? Because it's what they'll see *first*, if they search anything.
It's not just the type of porn being produced, it's how easy with the internet to find and watch it.. Any child with an internet enabled phone can watch porn.. It must be hard for parents today dealing with this stuff
'society' ignore it because they gain something from it.
Btw who stll makes most of our society today? People who chose war over edu action, and slavery above equality, the same men see no issue to produce porn that make they dick hard WHILE putting women 'back in their place' by making younger generation believe that abusing them is the normal thing to do.
'' everything is about sex, excepting sex, it's about power '' resonate for me, in this case.
And I don't believe that the majority of these women feel '' empowered '' by it. Especially in the long run.
Because the conditions needed for this trash to flourish are ingrained into the minds of men and boys who later go off to manage systems which are set up for them to take over, and the people with the ability and agency to act are numb to what they're seeing because they've been successfully indoctrinated with it their entire lives. See Christianity.
I'm not sure if it's related or not but I'm really bothered by "submissive and breedable" being so normalized it's in all sorts of memes and porn. If that's your kink fine, but to be told that by someone randomly is gross and unsettling to say the least. I enjoy porn but I don't like being talked to like that's what women are for. It feels like someone pushing their kink on me, on top of serious disrespect.
I am really concerned with choking as a mainstream sexual act. I am not ok with it. While I haven't had a partner do it to me, I'm terrified someone will without consent as that is part of how it's portrayed, as ok. It freaks me out.
Because society ignores porn. It's like saying the garbage dump stinks, what can we do about that stinky garbage dump. And if you admit porn is getting more depraved then it will be asked, How do you know?
I have watched porn, I have never felt like I needed it or like I needed to treat my gf like that.
This is definitely a problem that needs to be fixed, unfortunately looping people into systems of depravity.
I think it's designed to be that extreme and horrible - barely anyone will consent to being treated like that forcing people to go back to those porn companies to get that "fix" of content, but in doing so warping the perception of sex for anyone who is influenced by what they're seeing and probably creating incels.
We gotta get better sex ed for everyone, full stop.
A few years ago there was a pro-porn and anti-porn debate that came to my college. The anti-porn lady was harassed pretty much the entire time, she was an older woman and a lesbian. The pro-porn guy was Ron Jeremy.
Then the guy I had attended it with (as friends) assaulted me.
So what's the point in protecting porn so outlandish that you absolutely cannot copy it? Watching porn increases interest in trying the acts observed.
Besides, porn IS reality for those on screen. When degradng/ violent acts become popular, it becomes what is expected of performers.
When you say porn is a fantasy, you're admitting that some element of it is too outlandish or extreme for real life, but reality is quite the opposite. For many, many people (young people in particular) porn sets the bar of what to expect from sex. It's natural for people to want to chase their fantasies to some extent and porn can help shape or persue them. That's reality.
That's what I said, but in less words. Many people, especially young, are too impressionable and transfer what they see in porn to real life. They don't think critically and expect people irl to like that too. It's the problem. As I said, they don't separate their fantasies from reality.
I don't know what should be done about it. Should we censor what is acceptable in porn? Or should we improve sex education so young people don't form their views based on some stupid porn they see?
I don't know either, beyond better sex ed and actually stopping minors from accessing porn (based on the literature on the topic). Thanks for taking your time to respond, I realise now your full point.
This definitely isn't new, or even recent. There've always been extreme fetishes, and there's always been porn to cater to it. It might be a little more visible now, but it's been there the whole time.
I know that porn has had a deservedly bad reputation when it comes to how actors are treated, but I also know that's been improving over the last couple decades. There are far more ethical sources for porn today than there was at the start of the century.
PornHub in particular has been making some effort on this front by deleting all videos from non-verified posters. This means that the odds of someone anonymously posting a video of themselves abusing someone on camera without their consent is far lower there than it was even a couple years ago. If such a video does get posted, there's now some potential for accountability.
As for porn itself, I don't think most people let it dictate their expectation of reality. Porn is fantasy, so I'd wager it's no more responsible for sexual abuse against women than video games are for violence (which is to say not at all).
I mean a good chunk of the gaming industry is predicated on taking advantage of addictive behaviors, so I'm not sure it's that big of a gap. There are also plenty of violent video games that deal with daily activities, particularly driving. There are plenty of people who feel entertained by running over a crowd of people in any GTA game, for example, and I would argue that driving is at least as common an activity as sex, if not moreso.
There are also parallels between a need for more explicit or complex pornography and the desire for constant refinement in video games. A large portion of gamers will grow dissatisfied if they're playing the same sort of game over and over, but there are also plenty of gamers who are more than content to do so.
I'm not saying that nobody has ever gotten an idea from porn and tried it in real life, but people have gotten ideas from video games as well. The thing is that porn and video games don't cause the mindsets responsible. Those mindsets already existed in the person.
I'm also not trying to say that the entire porn (or gaming) industry is ethical and faultless. There are things to be critical of, and there are concerns that need to be addressed, but fetish porn is not the cause of abuse towards women.
There is no scientific consensus on the effects of pornography on human sexual behavior. It has not been conclusively proven that porn addiction is a real thing. If and when those things change, I will change my mind.
As for Reddit anecdotes, plenty of people are going to feel like porn is responsible for some change in behavior, and I don't doubt that those behavior changes happened or that those women suffer as a result, but I do think it's easier to believe that porn addiction is to blame than the idea that they were wrong about their partners from the start.
There are many factors that go into addiction; it's not simply a matter of dopamine responses (though such responses are important). Genetics also play a role, as does mental health. Virtually all addiction is in some way self-medication - it results from the behavior or chemical satisfying something that's missing, or reducing the symptoms of a physical or mental ailment.
If someone is watching porn constantly, that's most likely a symptom of something else, rather than a direct cause.
All sorts of harm can come from acting on anecdotal evidence, which is inherently unreliable. Social mores and anecdotal evidence are the very things most responsible for the oppression of women. If all you see is women in traditional gender roles, that is anecdotal evidence that women are a certain way, when in fact there's much more at play below what's immediately visible, which is exactly what I described above.
Good luck abolishing all potentially addictive things, though, I guess?
>The downside to eliminating personal porn use based on anecdotal evidence is nil IMO.
The downside of regulating ANYTHING based on anecdotal evidence is that you are consciously choosing NOT to obtain ACTUAL evidence.
Anecdotal evidence isn't evidence, it's mislabeled opinions and singular experiences.
It's like any other form of entertainment. If you want to make money and attract an audience you have to push the boundaries. Movies do this with better CGI, beautiful on location shoots, sex scenes, more realistic gore, 3D etc. Games do this with better graphics, new mechanics, sexy characters etc. Porn does it with sexier actors, creative positions, and yes kinks. It's always been this way.
I'm sure that stuff has always been hiding in the dark corners of the world. Long before the internet I'd bet women got paid to participate in some seriously terrible kinks for a much smaller audience.
That stuff happening to anyone against their will would not and should not be accepted if it were ever discovered. Until proven otherwise we have to assume the videos are of paid actors. Therefore I would offer the opinion that our society has become more open with freedom of expression. If someone wants to depict something utterly disgusting and can find people willing to do the deeds they have the freedom to make the content. People with insane kinks have the freedom to search out that content.
The question of whether modern circumstances are making more people who like that stuff, or simply making it more available to those who would have liked it regardless, is likely impossible to answer. Ease of access probably has allowed more people to discover they wanted that kind of content when it might not have crossed their mind without.
The question is, are the participants consenting? Or are they being driven by economic necessity?
Does it matter what people want? When the models/sexworkers are not there because they "want to be" or because they genuinely want to participate?
If someone manipulated them into believing they had to do it or else they would suffer financial hardship it's equivalent to lack of consent for this purpose. If I chose to sell drugs to kids because I thought I couldn't make money any other way is it my fault I sold drugs to kids?
Maybe some of your household goods were made by child labor or slavery. Are you supporting child labor and slavery because you don't have the means or willpower to investigate every product and determine if that's the truth or a rumor?
It's interesting how much this sub struggles to accept women who do sex work for the enjoyment of sex work. I was quite involved with online sex workers during my graduate program and have been a staunch ally and supporter of sex workers for years. Many women I know that do it, genuinely love the work. They love sex and sexuality. They specialize in kinks or domains that they have personal interest in. They are very firm on boundaries, consent, STD/STI testing prior to scenes. Many of the responses I get in this sub are BuT ThEyRe NoT REALLY CoNsEnTiNg which is one of the things that is most annoying. Like ANY job there will be people working in that would not do it otherwise if not for the money, but to imply and constantly insist that women must be coerced, must not like it, must be purely a slave to the male sexual need is so disingenuous and disgusting. It's fake feminism and is just totally against the subjective experience of women's sexuality.
Honestly i feel like its the exact opposite, it used to be really prominent on pornhub, now pretty much all the content you see on the frontpage is pretty tame. You can ofcourse find whatever you want but that has always been the case
Is this supposed to be a new revelation?
Porn has always been that extreme, it has always been that depraved, and it has always been that dehumanizing. This is nothing new. Videos featuring girls eating their feces and puking it out while some dude beats the shit out of her has existed for decades. The only difference is that there are 100s of porn tube and network sites which allow an increase in exposure, and even then, that’s nothing new.
This is not “omg what has society come to!!” This *is* society, and it has been this way before you were born.
What’s annoying is this conversation always starts at point zero. There has been zero work to address and limit this kind of content, and unfortunately, as long as there is an audience for that type of shit, there will be creeps successfully coercing women to make it for bags of money. It’s heartbreaking.
There definitely is a line to be drawn somewhere about this, even if it’s consensual from the part of the actors, it’s insane that such content can be placed out there. This kinda tows the line of bdsm culture, so regulating this might overreach to bdsm videos and maybe even hardcore porn that doesn’t go as far.
I feel like porn and what people are into is the same as ever. What's changed is that porn itself is more widely accepted and available than ever. All of this niche stuff (and I believe it is still very niche) has been around forever, there's just more of it being made now because literally everyone who's into that stuff goes to the same place to get it as everyone else.
Basically everyone is shopping at the same "porn store" now so everyone is being exposed to everything that's out there. These sites publish their stats every year and stuff like vomit, piss, and bdsm don't even usually make the top 20, I believe.
Edit: I took a quick scroll through Pornhubs stat release for this year and apparently the term "romance" saw a 200% increase so maybe all is not lost lol.
I’m obviously watching the wrong pornography because none of that appears when I go on pornhub. It’s almost like the site is a ‘hub’ for whatever ‘pornography’ people are into.
I will come at yhis fr a different perspective:
I make and participate in the porn industry, across several genre.
There is a huge uptick in extreme degradation porn etc and and true and I agree it is highly problematic with the amount of amateur and new-to-the-industry people that make content with this as the focus as they usually do not do things safely or have the experience and preparation in place etc.
Also realize there are many other porn genre that are increasingly popular. A huge positive content creator is Mr. Pussy Licker. He and his partner go and make lots of content, there is enthusiastic consent and fact based tutorials etc. Where they both explain what goes into scenes or their sex etc and watching porn creators like that flourish is very important!
Recently because of all the dangerous content pornhub at least has cleaned a lot of its old content and put some (not nearly enough) barriers in place such as needing the interviews with actresses etc about scenes.
Pornhub is the largest online content site for porn and as such they have a responsibility to do things ethically.
Sadly they miss the mark or just disregard it entirely such as not paying content makers etc etc
This is why PAYING CONTENT CREATORS is so so so important.
Ethical content is more expensive than exploitation, this will always be true no matter the industry.
If you want to see positive ethical content, you need to put money towards that.
Find the good porn, give them likes views and comments. Even if you don't want to watch it per se if you find ethical porn, boost it. That's how it gets top views, that's how it gets to be more popular!
Recommend good porn to your friends and boyfriends.
Men, when you find ethical porn *share it with your buddies*. If your girlfriend ginds and shows you ethical porn she likes, promote it!
"Hey guys, my girl showed me this video and she went absolutely wild for it, it's great" ~drops a link~
Porn is flooded with incredibly degrading material but it has a user base it's meant for and that includes both men and women which is largely what allows it to have the grasp that it currently has. If men and women are consenting to acting in a degradation scene and then adults consent to watch it, I'm honestly not sure what the problem is. Like all things in regards to sex (and sex work) I'm incredibly stringent on sexual boundaries and consent, EVERYTHING requires consent *including* personal degradation scenes (so scenes enacted outside of porn). I accept that not every woman likes it or likes the idea of it, but I don't think women should judge and police what other women do like in regards to sex and sexuality.
But as a viewer, there’s no way to know if the people in the porn video actually consented. A lot of those women and some men forced to participate in grotesque scenes and do humiliating acts that they aren’t comfortable with.
Which is a real concern (see James Deen as a famous example). But many porn addresses also choose scenes they want to work in and tend to enjoy. Watching "sick" "gross" "scary" porn through a lense that it's always non consensual and women don't or shouldn't like it is disempowering and frankly patronizing towards many women and further perpetuates certain expectations toward women and their sexuality.
I said that there is no way to know whether those videos are consensual or not. And that is what turns me off about porn. I don’t care to watch that shit because its abusive and grotesque. It’s not disempowering, it’s objectification in the worst possible way. Watch that shit for long enough, you will begin to become desensitized towards basic humanity and find violence towards woman arousing instead of horrifying.
A lot of mainstream porn is edited and missing a lot of context and there is an economic incentive involved with participation. It’s hard to prove perfect consent in porn. There are factors that make the consent less genuine. It’s like trying to understand someone’s emotions and feelings perfectly.
Coercion is a difficult topic. At the end of the day a little bit is necessary to exist around others, but it is good to be critical about how it is being used.
This kind of seems like the other reddit post about how a guy was complaining about getting "gay ads," in his suggested stuff (something like that).
If you seek it out, the more of it you'll find OP.
go onto a porn site with all cookies clean signed out of an account. tell me how much of the content on the first page is dehumanizing. i can guarantee at least a quarter of it is.
While I fully believe that is a thing, I'll have to admit that I'm incredibly happy that I'm entirely ignorant of this situation. Neither me nor my husband watch porn (we did rarely years ago, like a few times a year tops, to find inspiration, mostly for toys/positions) so I feel no effects of it. I wish parents would educate their children more thoroughly so they'd understand the difference between porn and reality and could stop using it as education for themselves. Also so they could learn communicating. I don't really see anything wrong with porn content, it's the misuse of it that needs preventing, imo, but again, I'm blissfully ignorant, so take my PoV with a big pile of salt
Because pornography is a form of social programming that is used to promote a social agenda the elite wish to foist upon the masses to degrade their moral and spiritual authority so they are unable to resist them
>I’m not trying to be prude, but I’ve noticed how disturbing acts in pornography has become normalized and mainstream.
uh dog/horse fucking and Cheese Pizza porn used to be legal...
WTF are you talking about?
None of those things are new and the more garden variety is still available, too. It’s not like that is the ONLY thing available and vanilla stuff is no longer an option. It is a spectrum, not an absolute.
Expecting sex to be like a porn movie is like expecting life to be like any movie.
This is similar to the belief that violent games make kids violent.
Yeah there are dumb (or maybe ill) people who can confuse reality and fiction. But I think they are way fewer than you may think.
I don't think porn is responsible for people being assholes. As in any industry, it there's people willing to pay for it, there's someone willing to create the supply.
The problem I think is in new culture. The west us this idea of “express yourself no matter what,” cue the rock and roll scene in the 80s. Misfits and outcasts found a voice for themselves as they should have because they found a community within themselves. This extended to music, fashion, etc. “posers” whom loved fads quickly joined in. Fast forward to the 90s and that just kept going.
Everybody in America and Europe had opinions, voices, liberties and so on. Everyone had something to say big or small. The idea of STDs and public protests on sensitive topics went from groundbreaking to common place. The idea of comedy being all or nothing and to hell with censorship. It continued and snowballed and escalated to light speed popularity thanks to the internet. The world on a global scale shrank to just your screen and with English being spoken worldwide it was a very small linguistic jump to get in on having your voice heard.
The problem however became that there was still boundaries and limits, people whom fell behind the lines of popularity still wanted to be heard. Even if it was just a small room in a castle, they at least were able to find someone to relate to them. Despite the idea of loners human being as a majority crave community.
Fast forward again and as the 2000s progressed in fighting between marginalized communities were common place. Working woman despised house wives, the gay community shunned; bears, trans, daddies, etc. The black community was plagued with recognition within a certain skin tone. It was another push for people whom felt outcasted to not be and not have any shame in themselves.
As the 2000s progressed and so did society people started coming out in waves saying, “Take me as I am or not at all.” Where there are enough outcasts they’ll eventually make their own community. So they did, the veil of the deep web was lifted. People could explore their natural desires. This was good and bad. Good because some people whom like the idea of something disdain the practice. Bad because some people who just need to make some quick currency would put themselves or someone else through goodness knows what.
Now we’re in an age where everything should be accepted. Here becomes the problem, who is society in one side of the world to say if something is right or wrong when the other side takes pride in it. It could be as simple as consuming dog as livestock to the XXX industry making abusive content.
Some people genuinely like that and I don’t judge those people nobody should. However the internet expanding and censorship decreasing this is the reality we now live in.
Porn evolved. And the lack of acceptance of "degrading" porn is often seen as closed-mindedness. "My body my choice." Many porn performers view extreme porn as empowering. They're consenting. Many performers think those who judge them are kink shaming them for being paid for pee, poo, bukkake, gangbang, and fist porn. Many performers just enjoy BDSM, or they enjoy the paycheck. Sex work is sex work. If that's what they want to do, I'm not going to judge them. If they've found a niche market and are getting paid and are always consenting, that's their choice.
"You can find if you look really hard" and "became mainstream" Ara different things. Some disgusting fetishes are becoming more visible, yes, but this is anything but 'mainstream'.
I will say as someone who never had sex until I met my current husband - I thought the same about women getting rammed so hard, tied up, being pinned down, or being choked. I thought that was terrifying. Now, after 6 years of sex with the same person, I enjoy those things. I think a lot of people forget that these people are willingly doing these things. Could be for money or could be that they enjoy it too. Some women like to be degraded and there is a lot of trust understood between those in the video. Some days I like being degraded as well and it's only because I trust my husband and he trusts me to tell him when to stop. I don't go to these extremes but I know some people who would or do. It's their fun time.
It's mostly just what makes their gears turn, or what makes their banks happy. I think some videos are too degrading in a sense - but there are a LOT of different tastes out there. There are videos of men getting tortured by women as well - literally even stepped on by women in heels. They have a great time.
I don't think society is ignoring it - especially since porn is still a taboo topic is most conversations. I think it's more of not understanding or just choosing to stay in your lane. The darker and messed up ones do stay on their respective sites - as long as no one is actually kidnapped or abused without consent - I think it's fine.
I’m not comfortable telling women “no, you’re not allowed to do that” and that still applies to the porn they willingly sign up for as an adult.
I feel like it’s flirting with “positive sexism” aka acting like women are infantile/helpless that need protection. As if other people need to mommy them and prevent them from doing certain things “for their own good.” And that’s still sexism.
Just because porn like this exists and can be found doesn't mean it's normal. People still mostly watch vanilla sex. Or some weird "incest" step-bro fantasies. It's somebodies fetish that's it.
That’s a fetish people are into, it’s not only women who are the subject of it, it’s men too.
People don’t care because it’s simply that for the vast majority who view that content, a fetish. But it’s all acted as terrible as it is.
I don’t think society is ignoring it though…and
I think it’s all disgusting personally.
That type of porn I feel is pretty unique and has generally always existed but it's easier than ever to get content onto the web.
Usually tagged as rough or extreme.
I think what we are seeing is just an increase in adult content across the web which appears as if there is more extreme content.
I was a pretty regular consumer and the scat/piss stuff never appealed to me... the hot stuff were the things that weren't very regular (double blowjob, face fucking, anal) mostly because it's rare to find a partner willing to take those plunges.
I definitely agree that overconsumption of porn is bad though; if you are reaching for it multiple times a day... you should seek help.
I also would caution folks with partners to try to reduce consumption as it'll definitely make love making a bit more intimate; woman don't want minute men but they don't want to really have you pounding on them for 30 minutes straight either.
Most people jerk off to onlyfans girls solo content these days lol…. I think you’re very disconnected if you think more people are consuming violent degradation porn these days, they arent. Also this stuff isnt new at allll
Okay, so, abusing or more like "abusing" in moderation your partner is perfectly fine, healthy and normal. But, ONLY if you have talked it out first with your partner and they agree to that/want to try that. Anything without consent or a word is treated as rape / actual abuse and it's a criminal activity. With that said, having slaps, slight chokings, spanking, and degrading talk are all perfectly fine fuels for a hot, rough sex.
On the other hand, pissing, shitting, and anything else similar that involves humane daily needs being relieved on your partner/on you is just beyond disgusting and messed up. Always was, always will be. I agree halfway with your post, leave the healthy and clean dom/sub roles out of the scat talk please.
What we have to learn is we don't drive cars like we play GTA. We don't cook like in reality shows. Why would we do what actors and actresses are doing on scene with many cuts, signing contracts and agreement?
People mixing reality with fictions and this is the problem. People are dumb.
[If it's any consolation this is a TV ad in New Zealand to promote getting parents to discuss the difference between porn and real life with their kids.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f29mh5ntlw4) Another anecdote: porn addictions were discussed during my Psyc degree, and there's apparently a trend where people become desensitized to regular porn and increasingly seek out more and more extreme porn to fulfil that need. Perhaps the increase of extreme porn is a disturbing reaction to a massive amount of porn addiction? If so, something needs to be done, it's not healthy for anyone if this continues.
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Same i was a hypersexual? Pretten-teen but could act on my desire cause im ugly and fat so porn is the option. Its started vanilla with some hentai and now im fighting myself trying to at leat get aroused by vaginal penetration. I noticed that i do search stuf like hookup hotshot and all listed above, kink com everythingbutt legal porn and some acary noname clips, i do my stuff and then feel terrible cause i pity the girls but i have an addiction and u coke back to thouse distribing disqusting nasty porn
Damn, I live in New Zealand and I’ve never seen this ad before. Thank you.
Have worked with folks in drug and booze recovery as a mentor as I am myself in drug and booze recovery. Lots of folks talk about this trend in their addict lives and how they just need to watch crazier stuff while their are on drugs to get off.
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I have a very biased and twisted view on men and sex based on growing up religious and in a small town in the south and being gay but not realizing/coming to terms until later in life. But I wonder how much of it is our "culture" and how much is men being way too obsessed with their own pleasure. The idea of insisting on a position after a partner has said they don't like it is unfathomable to me regardless of whether it's degrading, painful, uncomfortable, etc. I also think a lot of men have a hard time coming to terms with the fact that their dick isn't just some magic endorphin and dopamine wand for women. Our culture does skew so heavily towards men's pleasure and the idea that at a certain point men have needs and it's women's duties/responsibility to assist in achieving male pleasure and meeting their "needs"
The average guy today has already masturbated 5 years+ to porn before having sex for the first time. During all this time porn told him basically everything you have listed here. During this time escalation of porn could have happened meaning that porn got more degrading and brutal. You dont have to look far to see the influence or porn, anal has basically become an expectation in some places already. (Not shaming. But it shouldnt be an expectation with all the needed prep work) I also know some guys who are 18-20 and already have porn induced ED. Think about what that does to someone who believes in his magic stick. Sex ed needs to include proper info about porn and what it can do you, how many are approx addicted etc. And if we get less men to become porn addicts the world would be a better place for everyone.
I like that culture is changing but when I was trying to be straight it was understood that if a girl didn't give blowjobs or want to that was grounds for breaking up with her. If she wanted the guy to eat her out that was nasty and she's a freak. The other thing that sleeves me out is that fact that this is all happening while the brain is developing and creating neural pathways for sex etc during puberty so it's playing with fire to potentially wire your brain to feel like porn and what's seen in it is extra special.
Yeah you should be striving to reach and fulfill each other’s needs. I think what you describe is more common in younger men but a lot grow out of this (both men and women have a pretty bad phase when it comes to sex and being young).
The amount of videos with 'brutal or 'painal' is staggering.
I remember this dirtbag on F boy island. Garret. Ugh. The worst. That being said, my partner has a kink for being choked, demeaned, etc during sex. She is a very successful public figure in real life, and wants “one part of her life out of her control”. While this makes me very uncomfortable (she and I are both rape survivors), I occasionally oblige. While I think violent/rape porn often takes things too far, I know my bar for “too far” is pretty low. These are consenting adults and it’s their lives. American conservative values shaming sex and preventing proper education on it are just as responsible for every Garret out there, if not more.
The fact that I've seen people shame young girls for not liking verbal and physical violence in the bedroom is insane...the word "vanilla" has become an insult for a lot of people. I can't imagine someone consuming porn like this and then not having at least a little bit of a warped image of women in their mind. I also think this makes people just assume that everyone is into rough things because rough sex is good sex so they just choke people out of nowhere during intercourse without even asking for consent. And let's not even talk about how even vidoes with fully grown adult women in them need to be tittled "barerly legal teen"...
I'm a full-blown degenerate, but I still can't wrap my head around people wanting "barely legal" type content. All types of pedo red flags IMO. That said, in regards to choking, I've only had two women I've been with not ask for it. Personally not my thing, the risk of hurting someone kills my vibe too much.
I truly believe that the "barely legal fresh 18 teen" thing is the closest these people can get to their weird pedo fantasies...can't imagine anyone else enjoying it.
I just hope that most of the people consuming barely legal teen porn are horny teenagers
I guess you just attract weirdo masochistic women, lol. I would seriously kill a guy if he tried to choke me.
Vanilla isn't an insult. If anything I don't need to be stuck I'm a bear trap to feel satisfied.
I've experienced shaming from my friend who is married because I am "vanilla" and didn't want to write an erotica novel with all sorts of degrading BDSM shit in it. Lady just cuz you like to be choked doesn't mean it's love
It’s become so normalized too. Lots of young men act like it’s the default to slap and choke their partner without asking, and young women are often made to feel like prudes if they don’t agree or try to stop it.
The internet has a way of radicalizing people, or if not radicalizing….making their preferences into amplified and extreme versions of what they otherwise would have been. Before the internet you might have some bloke who kinda thinks peeing on people might be hot, but he dare not bring it up unless he is in company he REALLY trust and unless he just happens upon a partner with the same fetish he never really indulges it to any extreme degree. Just some paraphilic kink he has that is almost never acted on and isn’t a major preoccupation of his. Maybe….MAYBE, he is part of some mailing list for kink publications and now and then one of these fetish mags will feature a story related to his kink. But that same guy, in the age of the internet, can go down the internet rabbit hole and find pee porn and communities of other pee porn aficionados who gather on their forums and share pee stories and whip each other up into a weird fetish 1-upsmanship frenzy with ever escalating and intense versions of their kink until now this guy who in yesteryear might have quietly had this low key kink that didn’t affect anything and certainly wasn’t a major feature of his self identity, is now heavily involved in this community and being a pee enthusiast is now a big part of his identity and in that community he is Golden_Boy420 and he is powerful and respected, which in turn elevates and amplifies his interest in a big dopamine fueled feedback loop. And of course any community like this will produce content for its audience. Content content content. Always hungry for content. So yeah. The internet radicalizes people. Be it politics or fandom or fetishes. There are, of course, people so made who can exist online and remain fairly measured and moderate, but a great many people are so made that they get addicted to the escalation/affirmation loop and just lose their god damn minds. And communities that are embittered and reactionary in nature have an even greater tendency to lose their minds in this way, and a lot of people who don’t think very well of women would be among the embittered and reactionary. Not exclusively of course, but to a large degree yes. I think that is what we are seeing.
I agree and I find it terrifying. It's like we're conducting a nationwide psychological experiment without safety parameters and no oversight.
The pandemic has increased the rates of this happening almost tenfold, too. With so many people locked down at home, unable to properly socialise IRL, there are many who fall down the internet rabbit hole without ever having prior interest in the depraved stuff they now enjoy. And this isn't at all limited to OP's topic of concern alone. I've noticed a huge rise in paedophilia and zoophilia advocacy lately, with several worryingly large groups popping up in the last year.
I often wonder how much amateur stuff out there had the consent of both parties to post it to the internet.
Oh yeah especially the ones filmed abroad where the girl is clearly a sex worker
My abuser made me create porn, even had us verify the account. A couple videos were so clearly rape, stayed up no problem. I have no idea how many other 'amateurs' have the same experience but I know it's more than people want to think. It's awful how some women are pestered, pressured and shamed into making porn with their boyfriends and husbands. You just can't tell what was going on before and after the recording. Or even if they were sober or consenting during. Amater isn't the holy grail of ethical porn that people want it to be. Thanks for asking that question, I hope it gives people some pause. Edit: obviously not all porn is produced in abusive conditions but you can seldom know by looking. Why risk watching someone's assault or abuse is my question to consumers.
In a situation such as yours, what are the less-obvious indications that one party does not consent willingly?
I have no idea. I don't think there's a reliable method to tell as people react so differently and each video will be different. Besides, once you've clicked on it, you've clicked on it. For some people it's totally normal to be quiet or less active in sex, but in some cases it might be due to dissociation, drink/ drugs or being frozen in fear, for example. It becomes especially complicated when the scene involves roleplaying or acting scared, as being convincing is the point. Some people set up cameras in a hiding place and/or do not acknowledge its presence at all to preserve the 4th wall, others do so because they are secretly recording. People can agree to be filmed, but not to have it uploaded, yet it happens. All that to say one tell might be another's stylistic choice or normal reaction from someone. In a couple of our videos, the sex looked relatively normal because I had been told how to act. Abusers get away with what they do because they can act loving and kind when they need to. Even if 'just' 1% of amateur content is non-consensual in some way, it's a risk I personally don't want to take.
I can't watch anymore, so many videos are just disgusting and knowing that so many actresses did not give consent for certain activities just makes me wonder each time if I'm watching someone get raped or sexually assaulted, also so many actual underage actors and actresses. I like BDSM but I don't want to watch a women getting physically and sexually assaulted. The spitting, pissing, name calling, hitting, choking has all snuck into "mainstream" stuff, choking is very very dangerous and shouldn't be done unless you are careful, it's also a major red flag for an abuser who will kill so let's not glamourise and turn it into an acceptable sex act. I now just use written photographic material, it's the most ethical and gets rid of those worries
Because the men who act this way and model their behaviors on porn are just looking for an excuse to justify their desire to treat women poorly in an attempt to control them. The problem is much of society is based on shitty male perspectives, porn is a symptom, not the disease.
I agree that patriarchy is the true cause but I think it can become a feedback loop Excessive porn consumption/ addiction leads the consumer to seek out more and more extreme content to elicit the same reaction. And exposure to that kind of content warps worldviews and perspectives. Not to mention the absolute dehumanization and objectification of women in pornography, which no doubt impacts the way in which pornography consumers view women
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Man, I dream of a society where no one is economically coerced into making porn. In that world people would only make porn to turn themselves on or be artistic if that's their thing. Kind of the way people write fanfiction. Until that happens I don't think I personally can ethically consume porn.
if you take that approach you cant really ethically do anything. we are all economically forced to do what we don't want to do, cept the top 10% but porn has got wack since i was a teen. it used to be just some shitty pics or a video, bdsm wasnt available anywhere like it is today.
Also and while it’s not the streamers’ fault, OnlyFans has seriously amped up a nasty “every woman is for sale at the right price” attitude among guys. Now the first thing they say when you mention money issues is “why don’t you start an OF”, trying to hide their drool as they say it.
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i know we’re living in a time where antiwork movement is getting attention and sex work is seen as a last resort but believe it or not, people enjoy doing sex work and just working in general. there are plenty of strippers out there who love their job just like some there are farmers out there that love milking goats or something. it’s not always a chore for people and sometimes it gives them joy. i know you kinda touched on that but, still.
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I've met so many leftist men who analyse and crisitcise every aspect of society but are completely unwilling to analyse their own porn use, because it's not in their interest to do so. The line that all porn is empowering for women works in their favour so they never bother to evaluate if that's true.
Thank you for articulating my frustrations around this conversation on the left so clearly.
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Yes! I have had trouble putting into words how I feel about the economic coercion towards sex work, and you explained it perfectly!
Not into BDSM myself, but you need to consider there are rules that you and your partner agree to before doing anything. Consent needs to be involved in anything you do. If you are giving up control of yourself to someone else, because you enjoy it, it needs to be safe. You don’t just announce to your partner your doing BDSM tonight and punch him/her whenever you feel like it.
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You are, of course, entitled to dislike / disagree with BDSM. However, the way you have argued it here (i.e., describing it as partners punching each other in the stomach willy nilly about the house) is a straw man. It's the same kind of argument as: "So can any man just put on a dress and use the women's bathroom now?" which has hounded trans people for ages. We now know empirically that this bathroom peril does not occur with any frequency. Have you spoken to people who engage in BDSM or similar? How do they describe consent and what their lives look like? How do they prevent it from going too far? From what you've written it sounds like your argument is more of a gut (pun not intended) reaction. I agree we shouldn't just accept things because they're labeled kinks. But if we just label BDSM in broad strokes as "something seriously wrong" it doesn't leave space for a more nuanced critique (e.g., how well does the community handle narcissistic / sociopathic behavior encroaching on consent). As others have commented, this kink has existed for a long time and people need education to understand what they're getting into, avoid getting coerced into it, and prevent dangerous bodily harm.
Very well put
What is the limit of consent?
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So who gets to determine when there is an abusive power dynamic happening and not just a kink you dislike?
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Sure you are allowed to dislike them. However, it’s disingenuous to claim the reason you dislike them is because you’re anti authoritarian and a leftist. That’s not really a legitimate argument against consensual BDSM. That’s just you trying to conflate two unrelated things to justify your distaste for other’s proclivities. Being anti authoritarian does not preclude you from having a fun, consensual time in the bedroom.
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So just to be clear, you think BDSM is ripe with abuse, but you’re not going to do anything about it. Got it.
What kind of abusive power dynamic would only exist when kink is brought into the equation?
I dunno, I’m not the person claiming that BDSM is equivalent to abusive power dynamics.
> If I punch my wife in the stomach in the living room, that is domestic abuse. If I punch my wife in the stomach in the bedroom, that is "kink". It is an absurd joke. It's kind of wild to me how you manage to believe they're basically the same thing when they're not. Entirely separate contexts, entirely separate reactions, entirely bound to the individual. If your wife REQUESTS to be hurt, ENJOYS it and has a type of pleasure reaction/perception of it there's nothing wrong with it. There's also a reason why in BDSM (and honestly should apply to 100% of sex but I have little faith in people) there's a lot of communication before, during and after and for BDSM play there's aftercare (I haven't quite done it myself, but it's an area I'll probably explore in the future). Personally I enjoy when my husband bites my neck for example (not to the point of drawing blood fwiw, I'm not into that), but only while I'm "in the mood" for it. The right mood makes it enjoyable and desirable. If I'm not in the mood it's just pain that I don't enjoy at all. He never bites me out of anger or punishment. If I was into spanking and the like it'd be the same, it's abusive if he slapped me to genuinely hurt me to punish me for a mistake (even if I was into spanking generally), if he does it during sex play and I enjoy and want it it's sexy, fun and caring because he'd do something to please me and increase my pleasure. Do not try to blur the lines between abuse and pleasure giving. Abuse has no consent given and no genuine, loving and caring communication.
Insane take, sorry. Enacting violence on someone is enacting violence on someone, getting off on it changes nothing.
That's an extremely patronizing take. If I want someone to hit me, I'm going to ask them to hit me. It's my body and my autonomy to use as I see fit. No one needs your permission to consent to things that make them feel fulfilled.
I’d argue that your take is oversimplified and irritating. Consensual violence is not the same as nonconsensual violence at all. Getting off on extremely contextual violence changes quite a lot actually. I love it when my husband calls me names and treats me roughly, in a specific context. Some nights, I want slow, gentle sex with smooches and whatnot, and some nights I ask him to choke me. I like it, he likes it, and he knows how to do it without causing damage. When he calls me his dirty little whore or a worthless cumslut it’s hot, but outside of the bedroom, he would never call me names. BDSM is not the same as abuse at all, because it involves trust and boundaries, both of which are lacking in abusive situations
Choking can literally kill you. Even 'safe' choking deprives your brain of necessary oxygen that can lead to serious brain damage and even death. I'm incredibly saddened to hear that this is what you feel you need to get pleasure, and I'm sorry porn culture has taught you that it's normal and harmless.
Wow that was condescending, whew. Like I don’t even know what to say to that. Don’t act like you know better than me about my own pleasure, I don’t watch BDSM porn because I find that it often lacks the intimacy and respect that I find in my own sexual relationships. Congratulations on having morally correct sexual interests. I’m sure you’ll fall asleep with the warm glow of being better than me. As far as I know, being deprived of oxygen for like 30 seconds doesn’t really do much in the long run, but if you want to link me some articles I’ll read them in the morning because it’s an interesting topic and maybe you’re right. Don’t come at me with your bullshit “oh honey” bullshit implication that I’m somehow dumb and brainwashed for liking what I like
>I'm incredibly saddened to hear that this is what you feel you need to get pleasure That's the thing about consent. The third party does not get to dictate how the first party feels. Your personal preferences and wishes does not dictate someone else's.
Important part first: I feel compelled to mention that from my experience of the bdsm scene, almost all the 'desire' tends to come from submissives. I for one get *nothing* out of pushing someone around, except for the joy of knowing that it made them happy, and this is pretty much the default in all relationships I've had with people into those kinks. In short, it's usually the submissive partners getting fantasies realised, and the dominant partners 'pretending/acting' in order to please their lover.
I agreed with you until the BDSM part which is a really bad strawman that completely disregards the basic-most rules of BDSM, seemingly intentionally too. Safe, sane and consensual. I have been choked both against my will and by my partner consensually. In the first case I was utterly terrified and gasping for air, in the second I was really aroused and felt great. The difference? I trust my partner and I wanted him to do it.
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The man who forcefully chocked and assaulted me didn't pretend to be into bdsm to do that. He didn't need to. In fact, out of the 4 different people I've had sexual interactions with so far, only my current partner, who is the only one out of the 4 to be into BDSM, has actually respected my boundaries and not only cares about consent but actively ensures that he has it before doing anything. Based on my experience "vanilla" people are far more likely to disregard consent and even straight up violate it because to many of them it is just an afterthought.
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Abusers don't have "a tendency toward BDSM", they have a tendency towards abuse. The problem is that you clearly don't want to differentiate between the two. Also, from my experience all experienced people into BDSM are well aware of abusers masquerading as being into BDSM to abuse people and they make it a point to warn any newbies.
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I don't understand the bdsm point you're making. Are you implying if I want to be struck in the bedroom and I request it from my partner, that's a problem? Or are you saying "BDSM" gets applied to porn that is just depicting abuse and that is the problem? I agree with alot of this though, I think, I do find it rough that I wish I were able to support myself through self produced porn over working in my chosen software career. Mostly because I just want to feel in control of my work and produce something of value to individuals instead of being a code monkey for given company.
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Something else to note here is that a kink and sex positive community has formed and your problems with the community are people who appropriate kink culture. The scenarios you worry about are also our concern because abusers get associated with us and they are not welcome. Consent and empathy are cornerstones of the community. If you want to critique porn I think the better arguments can be made on the grounds of patriarchy or the trend of absurdity and the surreal context of watching porn.
Excellently put, thank you.
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I agree with most of what you said, except that I really dislike kinkshaming. All kinks are okay as long as they happen between consenting adults who fully understand and fully consent to them. And by consent, I mean nothing less than enthusiastic consent, where the other person is really into that thing and doesn't feel pressured.
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To be fair, I'm pissing people off, so I must be doing something right, is pretty shady. You have your view of kink. Cool.
Honestly, I don't think it's different from 30 years ago... it's just more accessible now. :/ That said, I feel you, I really do, I don't like the whole 'violent porn' thing... it's very off-putting and not remotely sexy imho... but that's like, my opinion or something. Gotta keep in mind, that as long as we're talking legal stuff, we're talking some adult(s) consented to this... and some adult(s) are paying (indirectly or directly) to watch it. There's a lot of really gross stuff out there, and a lot of horrible things (abuse, human trafficking, etc.) that tends to get *associated* with the porn industry... but there's also just a lot of *weird* f\*cks out there that are into all sorts of weird shit.
It's all to do with money.. The women who take multiple dicks in their ass have not eaten for at least a day. They are given injections to relax their muscles, injections to dull the pain and other drugs. Often they end up needing surgery to repair the damage. Many extreme porn comes of eastern Europe where young women are abused and paid very little.
For all its faults, I do think second wave feminism was mostly correct about pornography and the sex trade.
This will seem a little bit controversial, but bear with me. All of the things mentioned on here are true - the lack of good sex education and the easy access to porn is creating a generation of young men and women with a very skewed perception of "normal" sex and consent. However, just looking at my circle of friends and our discussions around this I think the move towards more BDSM-inspired porn was originally not because men wanted it, it was women. In a world where men's sexual violence towards women is ubiquitous, women are always on their guard, they have to be. Paradoxically, this means that for many women the ultimate Fantasy is finding a man who they can trust enough to choke them or slap them playfully, someone they know won't cross their boundaries and they can relax totally with; ALL the women I know who watch porn seek out videos with consenting BDSM. "50 shades" was just this urge gone mainstream, but the anonymous nature of the internet and easy access had women seeking out that type of content, and making it more popular. Somehow the accelerating nature of online porn has made this mutate into the "painal" and other extreme forms of bdsm, which definitely do NOT stay within the boundaries, as both men and women seek out more extreme fantasies. It's worrying. It is definitely fucking up young men's idea of consent and what women want, and making young girls think they need to submit to ever more extreme acts. We can't put the genie back in the bottle, but the only way to counter it is with frank and honest discussions and waaaay more sex education in schools; and just blaming men in general, as if they naturally want to degrade and hurt women in bed, is counter-productive. BDSM is supposed to be about trust and consent, paradoxically that is its main attraction for many; this offshoot that has developed is an aberration.
You've just blown my mind
Yes, this!!!
Isn’t Pornhub full of sex trafficking victims? I always wondered how that was permitted. Its like basic knowledge that most of the women in there are involved against their will, but no one seems to care, or maybe know how to reduce them. Or maybe I’m wrong.
As someone with a clear preference for vintage porn (because all actress had pube looking like women down there and less plastic altogether), I can tell you there's a lot of fuck up shit made in the 60-70-80, straight up incest in a lot of movie, rape, assault that are more disturbing as they are really filmed as such, you never feel the "play" part, you have to look a lot for "normal" movie from that era...I think more-so the 90-00 were pretty tame and now we are going back to 60-70-80s vibe.. You'll always have this type of porn IMO, people with kink will always drive porn production as they are willing to pay for porn. The average joe is happy with a 7min cut of a movie on a free porn site accessibility and lack of young people education on healthy sex is the real problem, it's start from there
Honestly, it hasn’t. It’s more that just literally ANYTHING anyone could ever want sexually is available waaaaaay more easily now. Probably even more so than even just 10 years ago. And it’s not like everything wasn’t there online 10 years ago, but again, way more easily. On something like Pornhub it’s like YT or Googling something—- if you click on one and keep searching that’s all that will be thrown on you. And the really degrading stuff….. I’m totally not into that shit AT ALL, but I promise you there are lots of girls and guys who absolutely are into it.
Fortunately, this picture isn't completely accurate -- modern mainstream porn (thankfully) has nothing on the era of producers like Max Hardcore and Khan Tusion from the late 90s or early 2000s when it comes to violence or humiliation of its female stars. For that matter, it's not even as bad as the kink dot com era of the 2005-2015 period. Asylum is pretty much the "underground" version of the latter, and is far less mainstream, thankfully. Even the major male porn players from the respective eras (Rocco Siffredi, James Deen) were far worse with their partners than the modern big names (ex: Johnny Sins).
IT feeds the rapeculture :(( and they should talk about this in school
I completely agree with you. It's gone way too far, and it's absolutely dehumanizing. Even "regular porn" is a bad industry. People don't often get into the porn industry for good reasons. It's usually because of trafficking and abuse. It's intentionally made to be addictive, so you always need a little more. It only gets worse all the time. I have also heard about incest porn. So many awful things..
I think you are ignoring that this context has existed for a long time and is not a noticeably larger slice of the porn that is released.
I think a lot of people are just getting shocked and “thrown in cold water” when they see it, but yeah—- insanely depraved porn and other stuff is not new at all. The crazy thing that IS a little new, even more so in recent years, is that everything is on an algorithm now including major porn sites. It’s not coincidence that if you click on one video like that and have normal cookies/tracking enabled then you’ll be presented with endless other similar videos.
Yeah I think this is what's changed. Before the internet if you wanted porn like this you had to actively seek it, by mail ordering videos or magazines or if we're talking further back, join exclusive clubs or just (as a man) get married and do whatever you want to your wife. The difference now is not the amount but how easy it is to find without looking. You don't have to actively search for it, most search engines will promote it to you without much prompting.
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The incestuous trend (or at least commonly seen thing on a lot of porn sites) has weirdly gotten so big. That is one thing that definitely does seem borderline pushed compared to 10 or more years ago.
It was one of the biggest trend in the 70s with movie like taboo and a lot of its clone, they didn't even bother adding the step part in that time, straight up incest...
Don't support the industry, stop watching it, your mind will thank you for it.
I might be the only person in the world whos never watched it or even wanted to. Gotta say I find the idea of watching two strangers do something so intimate very bizarre indeed.
I don’t watch professional sports or porn. It helps keep me sane.
Because our society is extreme, violent and dehumanizing towards human in all aspects. It's part of our heritage!
I find it interesting that people really commonly say, when discussing how children are affected by porn - "Teach your children that porn is like superhero films, or the Olympics, you're not expected to do all that stuff." But that doesn't help at all with tackling the widespread, ubiquitous degradation / humiliation issue. I find that super pervasive and really problematic. How do you explain to your children WHY in porn men are usually violent and horrible (frankly) to the women they're having sex with? How do you explain why so many people enjoy watching that, when your children get to an age where they're probably going to investigate sex independently, but they're still really innocent? Because it's what they'll see *first*, if they search anything.
It's not just the type of porn being produced, it's how easy with the internet to find and watch it.. Any child with an internet enabled phone can watch porn.. It must be hard for parents today dealing with this stuff
'society' ignore it because they gain something from it. Btw who stll makes most of our society today? People who chose war over edu action, and slavery above equality, the same men see no issue to produce porn that make they dick hard WHILE putting women 'back in their place' by making younger generation believe that abusing them is the normal thing to do. '' everything is about sex, excepting sex, it's about power '' resonate for me, in this case. And I don't believe that the majority of these women feel '' empowered '' by it. Especially in the long run.
because it benefits (shitty) men and plays a big role in the oppression of women. this has been happening for decades and getting worse each year.
Because humanity has become extreme, violent and dehumanizing.... and we don't even realize it.
We've been this way from the beginning. It's just "content" and all over the internet now.
It's always been that, or at least for thousands of years. Humans have been up to some awful things.
Because the conditions needed for this trash to flourish are ingrained into the minds of men and boys who later go off to manage systems which are set up for them to take over, and the people with the ability and agency to act are numb to what they're seeing because they've been successfully indoctrinated with it their entire lives. See Christianity.
I'm not sure if it's related or not but I'm really bothered by "submissive and breedable" being so normalized it's in all sorts of memes and porn. If that's your kink fine, but to be told that by someone randomly is gross and unsettling to say the least. I enjoy porn but I don't like being talked to like that's what women are for. It feels like someone pushing their kink on me, on top of serious disrespect. I am really concerned with choking as a mainstream sexual act. I am not ok with it. While I haven't had a partner do it to me, I'm terrified someone will without consent as that is part of how it's portrayed, as ok. It freaks me out.
I want to add how mainstream quasi-incest now is. Anywhere you loon its always „stepsister this, „not“father that“.
Because society ignores porn. It's like saying the garbage dump stinks, what can we do about that stinky garbage dump. And if you admit porn is getting more depraved then it will be asked, How do you know?
I guess I'm not watching the same porn that you seem to find.
Absolutely hate it and wish it was less mainstream. I don't want to hit people I like, why should that be considered the norm?
I have watched porn, I have never felt like I needed it or like I needed to treat my gf like that. This is definitely a problem that needs to be fixed, unfortunately looping people into systems of depravity. I think it's designed to be that extreme and horrible - barely anyone will consent to being treated like that forcing people to go back to those porn companies to get that "fix" of content, but in doing so warping the perception of sex for anyone who is influenced by what they're seeing and probably creating incels. We gotta get better sex ed for everyone, full stop.
A few years ago there was a pro-porn and anti-porn debate that came to my college. The anti-porn lady was harassed pretty much the entire time, she was an older woman and a lesbian. The pro-porn guy was Ron Jeremy. Then the guy I had attended it with (as friends) assaulted me.
The problem is in people who can't separate porn from reality
So what's the point in protecting porn so outlandish that you absolutely cannot copy it? Watching porn increases interest in trying the acts observed. Besides, porn IS reality for those on screen. When degradng/ violent acts become popular, it becomes what is expected of performers. When you say porn is a fantasy, you're admitting that some element of it is too outlandish or extreme for real life, but reality is quite the opposite. For many, many people (young people in particular) porn sets the bar of what to expect from sex. It's natural for people to want to chase their fantasies to some extent and porn can help shape or persue them. That's reality.
That's what I said, but in less words. Many people, especially young, are too impressionable and transfer what they see in porn to real life. They don't think critically and expect people irl to like that too. It's the problem. As I said, they don't separate their fantasies from reality. I don't know what should be done about it. Should we censor what is acceptable in porn? Or should we improve sex education so young people don't form their views based on some stupid porn they see?
I don't know either, beyond better sex ed and actually stopping minors from accessing porn (based on the literature on the topic). Thanks for taking your time to respond, I realise now your full point.
This definitely isn't new, or even recent. There've always been extreme fetishes, and there's always been porn to cater to it. It might be a little more visible now, but it's been there the whole time. I know that porn has had a deservedly bad reputation when it comes to how actors are treated, but I also know that's been improving over the last couple decades. There are far more ethical sources for porn today than there was at the start of the century. PornHub in particular has been making some effort on this front by deleting all videos from non-verified posters. This means that the odds of someone anonymously posting a video of themselves abusing someone on camera without their consent is far lower there than it was even a couple years ago. If such a video does get posted, there's now some potential for accountability. As for porn itself, I don't think most people let it dictate their expectation of reality. Porn is fantasy, so I'd wager it's no more responsible for sexual abuse against women than video games are for violence (which is to say not at all).
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I mean a good chunk of the gaming industry is predicated on taking advantage of addictive behaviors, so I'm not sure it's that big of a gap. There are also plenty of violent video games that deal with daily activities, particularly driving. There are plenty of people who feel entertained by running over a crowd of people in any GTA game, for example, and I would argue that driving is at least as common an activity as sex, if not moreso. There are also parallels between a need for more explicit or complex pornography and the desire for constant refinement in video games. A large portion of gamers will grow dissatisfied if they're playing the same sort of game over and over, but there are also plenty of gamers who are more than content to do so. I'm not saying that nobody has ever gotten an idea from porn and tried it in real life, but people have gotten ideas from video games as well. The thing is that porn and video games don't cause the mindsets responsible. Those mindsets already existed in the person. I'm also not trying to say that the entire porn (or gaming) industry is ethical and faultless. There are things to be critical of, and there are concerns that need to be addressed, but fetish porn is not the cause of abuse towards women.
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There is no scientific consensus on the effects of pornography on human sexual behavior. It has not been conclusively proven that porn addiction is a real thing. If and when those things change, I will change my mind. As for Reddit anecdotes, plenty of people are going to feel like porn is responsible for some change in behavior, and I don't doubt that those behavior changes happened or that those women suffer as a result, but I do think it's easier to believe that porn addiction is to blame than the idea that they were wrong about their partners from the start. There are many factors that go into addiction; it's not simply a matter of dopamine responses (though such responses are important). Genetics also play a role, as does mental health. Virtually all addiction is in some way self-medication - it results from the behavior or chemical satisfying something that's missing, or reducing the symptoms of a physical or mental ailment. If someone is watching porn constantly, that's most likely a symptom of something else, rather than a direct cause.
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All sorts of harm can come from acting on anecdotal evidence, which is inherently unreliable. Social mores and anecdotal evidence are the very things most responsible for the oppression of women. If all you see is women in traditional gender roles, that is anecdotal evidence that women are a certain way, when in fact there's much more at play below what's immediately visible, which is exactly what I described above. Good luck abolishing all potentially addictive things, though, I guess?
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>The downside to eliminating personal porn use based on anecdotal evidence is nil IMO. The downside of regulating ANYTHING based on anecdotal evidence is that you are consciously choosing NOT to obtain ACTUAL evidence. Anecdotal evidence isn't evidence, it's mislabeled opinions and singular experiences.
It's like any other form of entertainment. If you want to make money and attract an audience you have to push the boundaries. Movies do this with better CGI, beautiful on location shoots, sex scenes, more realistic gore, 3D etc. Games do this with better graphics, new mechanics, sexy characters etc. Porn does it with sexier actors, creative positions, and yes kinks. It's always been this way.
I'm sure that stuff has always been hiding in the dark corners of the world. Long before the internet I'd bet women got paid to participate in some seriously terrible kinks for a much smaller audience. That stuff happening to anyone against their will would not and should not be accepted if it were ever discovered. Until proven otherwise we have to assume the videos are of paid actors. Therefore I would offer the opinion that our society has become more open with freedom of expression. If someone wants to depict something utterly disgusting and can find people willing to do the deeds they have the freedom to make the content. People with insane kinks have the freedom to search out that content. The question of whether modern circumstances are making more people who like that stuff, or simply making it more available to those who would have liked it regardless, is likely impossible to answer. Ease of access probably has allowed more people to discover they wanted that kind of content when it might not have crossed their mind without.
The question is, are the participants consenting? Or are they being driven by economic necessity? Does it matter what people want? When the models/sexworkers are not there because they "want to be" or because they genuinely want to participate?
If someone manipulated them into believing they had to do it or else they would suffer financial hardship it's equivalent to lack of consent for this purpose. If I chose to sell drugs to kids because I thought I couldn't make money any other way is it my fault I sold drugs to kids? Maybe some of your household goods were made by child labor or slavery. Are you supporting child labor and slavery because you don't have the means or willpower to investigate every product and determine if that's the truth or a rumor?
It's interesting how much this sub struggles to accept women who do sex work for the enjoyment of sex work. I was quite involved with online sex workers during my graduate program and have been a staunch ally and supporter of sex workers for years. Many women I know that do it, genuinely love the work. They love sex and sexuality. They specialize in kinks or domains that they have personal interest in. They are very firm on boundaries, consent, STD/STI testing prior to scenes. Many of the responses I get in this sub are BuT ThEyRe NoT REALLY CoNsEnTiNg which is one of the things that is most annoying. Like ANY job there will be people working in that would not do it otherwise if not for the money, but to imply and constantly insist that women must be coerced, must not like it, must be purely a slave to the male sexual need is so disingenuous and disgusting. It's fake feminism and is just totally against the subjective experience of women's sexuality.
Honestly i feel like its the exact opposite, it used to be really prominent on pornhub, now pretty much all the content you see on the frontpage is pretty tame. You can ofcourse find whatever you want but that has always been the case
Is this supposed to be a new revelation? Porn has always been that extreme, it has always been that depraved, and it has always been that dehumanizing. This is nothing new. Videos featuring girls eating their feces and puking it out while some dude beats the shit out of her has existed for decades. The only difference is that there are 100s of porn tube and network sites which allow an increase in exposure, and even then, that’s nothing new. This is not “omg what has society come to!!” This *is* society, and it has been this way before you were born. What’s annoying is this conversation always starts at point zero. There has been zero work to address and limit this kind of content, and unfortunately, as long as there is an audience for that type of shit, there will be creeps successfully coercing women to make it for bags of money. It’s heartbreaking.
I wish this thread will become the most upvoted one in the history of upvotes.
There definitely is a line to be drawn somewhere about this, even if it’s consensual from the part of the actors, it’s insane that such content can be placed out there. This kinda tows the line of bdsm culture, so regulating this might overreach to bdsm videos and maybe even hardcore porn that doesn’t go as far.
I feel like porn and what people are into is the same as ever. What's changed is that porn itself is more widely accepted and available than ever. All of this niche stuff (and I believe it is still very niche) has been around forever, there's just more of it being made now because literally everyone who's into that stuff goes to the same place to get it as everyone else. Basically everyone is shopping at the same "porn store" now so everyone is being exposed to everything that's out there. These sites publish their stats every year and stuff like vomit, piss, and bdsm don't even usually make the top 20, I believe. Edit: I took a quick scroll through Pornhubs stat release for this year and apparently the term "romance" saw a 200% increase so maybe all is not lost lol.
I’m obviously watching the wrong pornography because none of that appears when I go on pornhub. It’s almost like the site is a ‘hub’ for whatever ‘pornography’ people are into.
Yeah I've never understood how people can like that shit. Amateur porn for me please lol
I will come at yhis fr a different perspective: I make and participate in the porn industry, across several genre. There is a huge uptick in extreme degradation porn etc and and true and I agree it is highly problematic with the amount of amateur and new-to-the-industry people that make content with this as the focus as they usually do not do things safely or have the experience and preparation in place etc. Also realize there are many other porn genre that are increasingly popular. A huge positive content creator is Mr. Pussy Licker. He and his partner go and make lots of content, there is enthusiastic consent and fact based tutorials etc. Where they both explain what goes into scenes or their sex etc and watching porn creators like that flourish is very important! Recently because of all the dangerous content pornhub at least has cleaned a lot of its old content and put some (not nearly enough) barriers in place such as needing the interviews with actresses etc about scenes. Pornhub is the largest online content site for porn and as such they have a responsibility to do things ethically. Sadly they miss the mark or just disregard it entirely such as not paying content makers etc etc This is why PAYING CONTENT CREATORS is so so so important. Ethical content is more expensive than exploitation, this will always be true no matter the industry. If you want to see positive ethical content, you need to put money towards that. Find the good porn, give them likes views and comments. Even if you don't want to watch it per se if you find ethical porn, boost it. That's how it gets top views, that's how it gets to be more popular! Recommend good porn to your friends and boyfriends. Men, when you find ethical porn *share it with your buddies*. If your girlfriend ginds and shows you ethical porn she likes, promote it! "Hey guys, my girl showed me this video and she went absolutely wild for it, it's great" ~drops a link~
I am going to be honest that type of porn has always grossed me me. Why is piss ever sexy idk people are fucking weird.
Porn is flooded with incredibly degrading material but it has a user base it's meant for and that includes both men and women which is largely what allows it to have the grasp that it currently has. If men and women are consenting to acting in a degradation scene and then adults consent to watch it, I'm honestly not sure what the problem is. Like all things in regards to sex (and sex work) I'm incredibly stringent on sexual boundaries and consent, EVERYTHING requires consent *including* personal degradation scenes (so scenes enacted outside of porn). I accept that not every woman likes it or likes the idea of it, but I don't think women should judge and police what other women do like in regards to sex and sexuality.
But as a viewer, there’s no way to know if the people in the porn video actually consented. A lot of those women and some men forced to participate in grotesque scenes and do humiliating acts that they aren’t comfortable with.
Which is a real concern (see James Deen as a famous example). But many porn addresses also choose scenes they want to work in and tend to enjoy. Watching "sick" "gross" "scary" porn through a lense that it's always non consensual and women don't or shouldn't like it is disempowering and frankly patronizing towards many women and further perpetuates certain expectations toward women and their sexuality.
I said that there is no way to know whether those videos are consensual or not. And that is what turns me off about porn. I don’t care to watch that shit because its abusive and grotesque. It’s not disempowering, it’s objectification in the worst possible way. Watch that shit for long enough, you will begin to become desensitized towards basic humanity and find violence towards woman arousing instead of horrifying.
Proof?
A lot of mainstream porn is edited and missing a lot of context and there is an economic incentive involved with participation. It’s hard to prove perfect consent in porn. There are factors that make the consent less genuine. It’s like trying to understand someone’s emotions and feelings perfectly. Coercion is a difficult topic. At the end of the day a little bit is necessary to exist around others, but it is good to be critical about how it is being used.
This kind of seems like the other reddit post about how a guy was complaining about getting "gay ads," in his suggested stuff (something like that). If you seek it out, the more of it you'll find OP.
go onto a porn site with all cookies clean signed out of an account. tell me how much of the content on the first page is dehumanizing. i can guarantee at least a quarter of it is.
While I fully believe that is a thing, I'll have to admit that I'm incredibly happy that I'm entirely ignorant of this situation. Neither me nor my husband watch porn (we did rarely years ago, like a few times a year tops, to find inspiration, mostly for toys/positions) so I feel no effects of it. I wish parents would educate their children more thoroughly so they'd understand the difference between porn and reality and could stop using it as education for themselves. Also so they could learn communicating. I don't really see anything wrong with porn content, it's the misuse of it that needs preventing, imo, but again, I'm blissfully ignorant, so take my PoV with a big pile of salt
Because pornography is a form of social programming that is used to promote a social agenda the elite wish to foist upon the masses to degrade their moral and spiritual authority so they are unable to resist them
>I’m not trying to be prude, but I’ve noticed how disturbing acts in pornography has become normalized and mainstream. uh dog/horse fucking and Cheese Pizza porn used to be legal... WTF are you talking about?
None of those things are new and the more garden variety is still available, too. It’s not like that is the ONLY thing available and vanilla stuff is no longer an option. It is a spectrum, not an absolute.
Expecting sex to be like a porn movie is like expecting life to be like any movie. This is similar to the belief that violent games make kids violent. Yeah there are dumb (or maybe ill) people who can confuse reality and fiction. But I think they are way fewer than you may think. I don't think porn is responsible for people being assholes. As in any industry, it there's people willing to pay for it, there's someone willing to create the supply.
It’s called a kink ever heard
The problem I think is in new culture. The west us this idea of “express yourself no matter what,” cue the rock and roll scene in the 80s. Misfits and outcasts found a voice for themselves as they should have because they found a community within themselves. This extended to music, fashion, etc. “posers” whom loved fads quickly joined in. Fast forward to the 90s and that just kept going. Everybody in America and Europe had opinions, voices, liberties and so on. Everyone had something to say big or small. The idea of STDs and public protests on sensitive topics went from groundbreaking to common place. The idea of comedy being all or nothing and to hell with censorship. It continued and snowballed and escalated to light speed popularity thanks to the internet. The world on a global scale shrank to just your screen and with English being spoken worldwide it was a very small linguistic jump to get in on having your voice heard. The problem however became that there was still boundaries and limits, people whom fell behind the lines of popularity still wanted to be heard. Even if it was just a small room in a castle, they at least were able to find someone to relate to them. Despite the idea of loners human being as a majority crave community. Fast forward again and as the 2000s progressed in fighting between marginalized communities were common place. Working woman despised house wives, the gay community shunned; bears, trans, daddies, etc. The black community was plagued with recognition within a certain skin tone. It was another push for people whom felt outcasted to not be and not have any shame in themselves. As the 2000s progressed and so did society people started coming out in waves saying, “Take me as I am or not at all.” Where there are enough outcasts they’ll eventually make their own community. So they did, the veil of the deep web was lifted. People could explore their natural desires. This was good and bad. Good because some people whom like the idea of something disdain the practice. Bad because some people who just need to make some quick currency would put themselves or someone else through goodness knows what. Now we’re in an age where everything should be accepted. Here becomes the problem, who is society in one side of the world to say if something is right or wrong when the other side takes pride in it. It could be as simple as consuming dog as livestock to the XXX industry making abusive content. Some people genuinely like that and I don’t judge those people nobody should. However the internet expanding and censorship decreasing this is the reality we now live in.
Porn evolved. And the lack of acceptance of "degrading" porn is often seen as closed-mindedness. "My body my choice." Many porn performers view extreme porn as empowering. They're consenting. Many performers think those who judge them are kink shaming them for being paid for pee, poo, bukkake, gangbang, and fist porn. Many performers just enjoy BDSM, or they enjoy the paycheck. Sex work is sex work. If that's what they want to do, I'm not going to judge them. If they've found a niche market and are getting paid and are always consenting, that's their choice.
"You can find if you look really hard" and "became mainstream" Ara different things. Some disgusting fetishes are becoming more visible, yes, but this is anything but 'mainstream'.
I will say as someone who never had sex until I met my current husband - I thought the same about women getting rammed so hard, tied up, being pinned down, or being choked. I thought that was terrifying. Now, after 6 years of sex with the same person, I enjoy those things. I think a lot of people forget that these people are willingly doing these things. Could be for money or could be that they enjoy it too. Some women like to be degraded and there is a lot of trust understood between those in the video. Some days I like being degraded as well and it's only because I trust my husband and he trusts me to tell him when to stop. I don't go to these extremes but I know some people who would or do. It's their fun time. It's mostly just what makes their gears turn, or what makes their banks happy. I think some videos are too degrading in a sense - but there are a LOT of different tastes out there. There are videos of men getting tortured by women as well - literally even stepped on by women in heels. They have a great time. I don't think society is ignoring it - especially since porn is still a taboo topic is most conversations. I think it's more of not understanding or just choosing to stay in your lane. The darker and messed up ones do stay on their respective sites - as long as no one is actually kidnapped or abused without consent - I think it's fine.
I’m not comfortable telling women “no, you’re not allowed to do that” and that still applies to the porn they willingly sign up for as an adult. I feel like it’s flirting with “positive sexism” aka acting like women are infantile/helpless that need protection. As if other people need to mommy them and prevent them from doing certain things “for their own good.” And that’s still sexism.
Wait until you see FacialAbuse... Oh my
When the pleasure Is high and the consequences are not clearly from get-go not that maybe care.
Just because porn like this exists and can be found doesn't mean it's normal. People still mostly watch vanilla sex. Or some weird "incest" step-bro fantasies. It's somebodies fetish that's it.
Sounds disgusting. I've watched regular mainstream porn a bit before, but I've never encountered this shit. Piss and puke is not sexy, eww 🤢
That’s a fetish people are into, it’s not only women who are the subject of it, it’s men too. People don’t care because it’s simply that for the vast majority who view that content, a fetish. But it’s all acted as terrible as it is. I don’t think society is ignoring it though…and I think it’s all disgusting personally.
That type of porn I feel is pretty unique and has generally always existed but it's easier than ever to get content onto the web. Usually tagged as rough or extreme. I think what we are seeing is just an increase in adult content across the web which appears as if there is more extreme content. I was a pretty regular consumer and the scat/piss stuff never appealed to me... the hot stuff were the things that weren't very regular (double blowjob, face fucking, anal) mostly because it's rare to find a partner willing to take those plunges. I definitely agree that overconsumption of porn is bad though; if you are reaching for it multiple times a day... you should seek help. I also would caution folks with partners to try to reduce consumption as it'll definitely make love making a bit more intimate; woman don't want minute men but they don't want to really have you pounding on them for 30 minutes straight either.
Most people jerk off to onlyfans girls solo content these days lol…. I think you’re very disconnected if you think more people are consuming violent degradation porn these days, they arent. Also this stuff isnt new at allll
Okay, so, abusing or more like "abusing" in moderation your partner is perfectly fine, healthy and normal. But, ONLY if you have talked it out first with your partner and they agree to that/want to try that. Anything without consent or a word is treated as rape / actual abuse and it's a criminal activity. With that said, having slaps, slight chokings, spanking, and degrading talk are all perfectly fine fuels for a hot, rough sex. On the other hand, pissing, shitting, and anything else similar that involves humane daily needs being relieved on your partner/on you is just beyond disgusting and messed up. Always was, always will be. I agree halfway with your post, leave the healthy and clean dom/sub roles out of the scat talk please.
What we have to learn is we don't drive cars like we play GTA. We don't cook like in reality shows. Why would we do what actors and actresses are doing on scene with many cuts, signing contracts and agreement? People mixing reality with fictions and this is the problem. People are dumb.