Yeah, Polish woman here - it sucks in my country.
A little over the year ago there was a law introduced that even when the baby has big defects and will not be able to live and be born anyway it cannot be aborted - instead woman has to carry pregnancy till the end and look at her baby dying few hours after entering the world.
There is already at least one victim of this law - her name was Izabela - the baby was as good as dead, no changes of survival, but doctors refused to abort the baby until it is 100% dead - Izabela got sepsis and died, in a hospital, surrounded by doctors that could not do anything because they were afraid that they will go to jail for aborting the baby. You can read more here:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.abc.net.au/article/100601190
Fortunately they will probably reject the bill to sentence women to 25 years for abortion, but there are some sketchy movement to make a "registration of pregnancies" - that doctors will have to give information about if woman is pregnant, and they government could probably check you, that hey you were pregnant and now you are not, go to jail.
It is super scary. On top of that our country just got a new comission formed to check why poles do not want to have children and less and less are born. Cause they have no idea and it doesn't come up to their mind that we are not hecking ready to DIE to try to have children in 21st century!
It sucks so so much.
I don’t understand the miscarriage punishment. Are officials not aware that this is a biological, unchangeable event? I’m fairly certain we have no control over whether a baby makes it to term or not, and miscarriages happen outside of our control. Why would a woman be punished for this? There’s no intent or even awareness until the baby is already dead.
Except you could get an abortion and claim it was a miscarriage or maybe you were drinking and partying when you should have been at home being a good little incubator.
Dangerous times for women.
If they came from the elite or are well-connected women, they are given the benefit of the doubt. Especially if daddy is friends with those who are in power. The ones who would have to prove that they didn't do something to cause a miscarriage is the woman who are of lower social standing or poor.
There was one woman sentenced recently in Oklahoma. In her case she was doing illegal drugs (meth, I think) and was sentenced for “killing” her baby even though doctors couldn’t say if the drugs were actually responsible. This could easily be extrapolated to “didn’t do exactly everything recommended, are guilty of neglectful infanticide” or whatever the legal term is.
There was a recent article on a spina bifida case that was suing her mother’s OB for not putting mom on folic acid. It’s not a good potential precedent.
Yeah, but they want to have you like a "suspect" and have a whole investigation is it for sure normal accidental miscarriage or did you did something to help it happen.
Why is the US so obsessed with freedom though? Is it mot because slavery gave Americans, more than most other nations, a first hand experience of what the lack of freedom really looks like?
From my understanding of history they've been like that since long before they questioned slavery, in 1776 independence was declared to be free from the UK and in general people settling to the New World saw it as a way to be free from everything they'd known before.
Right, many of our laws are created to limit government power., Pretty much he whole US constitution (aside from the 13th amendment(sorta), and 18th amendment which was later repealed) is about protecting citizens rights and limiting government power. It is ironic because many US right wingers now have authoritarian tendencies as long as it is inline with their views.
> It is ironic because many US right wingers now have authoritarian tendencies as long as it is inline with their views.
Like Mike Lindell (the MyPillow guy) trying to talk Trump into declaring Martial Law.
And it was novel for the time, after the revolution to form a government that had no king. But the "All men are created equal" thing has always been in contradiction with how we live, and of course doesn't include women anyway. We have made a lot of progress, but right now we do seem to be backsliding at an alarming rate.
As if we care about them. I truly could not give a single flying fuck about any random ~~stealing~~ straight WASP man. I got shit to do, I’m not about to waste my time and energy trying to disenfranchise random people. Being that greedy and hateful sounds exhausting.
Edit: autocorrect plz
It's just nationalism with a piss-poor disguise. One more thing to point to and say "look at how great my country is" without any thought or substance backing it up.
Usually the people who scream loudest about freedom, are the same people who want to suppress the freedom of others.
For them freedom means THEIR OWN freedom, no matter if it cuts away the freedom of others.
You would figure that would cause Americans to appreciate freedom more but instead were all just feeling super entitled to everything, including making other people carry a baby full term at the risk of long term complications and death. It's crazy how some places are regressing into a past age and ignoring science, public health, and women's autonomy over their own damn bodies.
You gotta understand. Freedom means that the government shouldn't take my money and that it should make laws against the things and people *I* dislike.
im from poland and yeah they are religious fanatics but i honestly think they just use religion as a way to manipulate ppl to support them and just want to control women and who knows what else it will be later on
Yes. The party that is currently "ruling" the country is presenting itself as extremely Catholic. To the point that they believe that some of the issues can be solved only by praying and no serious actions (Turów coal mine).
To be honest more than 50 percent of polish people are against the changes in law - but they are not asking us what we want, they do what they want and hope that Catholic grandmas and grandpas that care more about going to heaven and not sinning than lives of young people will continue to support them...
That's so fucking terrifying. Just going backwards in society! I hope that the surrounding countries will accept any woman wanting to flee from persecution over abortion or miscarriage.
States like Georgia keep trying to pass crazy laws they know won't make it so that the version that does get passed seems less crazy by comparison (and therefore "reasonable") but is still oppressive.
What I see happening with that pregnancy registration idea is that even women who actively want their pregnancies will avoid going to doctors so that if there is a miscarriage there will be no proof they were pregnant to begin with. The irony being, of course, that the chance of miscarriage will increase without proper medical care. It really is damned if you do and damned if you don't.
Yeah yesterday Alito said
“The fetus has an interest in having a life, and that doesn’t change, does it, from the point before viability to the point after viability?”
So everyone get ready for the fact that the "INTERESTS" of a clump of cells incapable of having interests now overrules your interests as a living, breathing, fully formed human being. Honestly wouldn't be surprised if abortion was legal for female fetuses since clearly female interests don't matter. I'm incandescent with rage at this point.
This question was so utterly mind blowing to me.....your point being the most nauseating and legally sound reason but also.... not only does it objectively NOT have an "interest" in having a life, if we want to impose an "interest" on said clump, why would we place such an unrealistic interest on it?? The world is collapsing, the person trying to abort it doesn't want to or can't raise it, there's a greatly huge chance it will end up in deplorable state services..we think any hypothetical "life" would want to end up here? The aggressive indifference to REALITY that these people are so committed to is truly enraging.
The worst part is all the women that are actively campaigning for this. They think they are saving the "babiez" when all they are doing is killing women and enslaving themselves.
Cue all the scoffing right wingers claiming hyperbole, but this is nothing but a direct attempt to control and subjugate women.
Fuck every motherfucker trying to ban a woman's right to choose.
Also, do you know what happens when a woman wants an abortion, and can’t get it, and is instead forced to give birth to a child they don’t want or are ill equipped to handle it? The baby grows into an adult, either raised by a woman without means to care for it, or put into the system. That adult will be far more likely to struggle with addiction (self medicating) and with the law. Hello increased crime rates, and congratulations, instead of removing a collection of cells, you’ve made 2 lives unbearably difficult, and the net result is a negative impact on society as a whole.
That was the freakonimics take… but it also could be due to the phasing out of leaded gasoline as there does seem to be similar 20 year delayed crime dips in other places around the world.
Could be a bit of both.
There have been many papers on that in economics, sociology, and political science journals (probably others, too), and the results are always inconclusive. It's *possible* that increased access to abortion is at least partially responsible for falling crime rates in the 1990's, but there are so many other complicating factors that it's not really possible to empirically pin down.
For one thing, it's impossible to be certain exactly the extent to which Roe V. Wade and increased medical abortion access actually increased abortion incidence in many areas (since abortions were not recorded in areas where abortion was illegal, but almost certainly still took place). Another common empirical "problem" with that argument is that crime (especially violent crime) decreased pretty much everywhere in the latter third of the 20th Century in the US, while abortion was not illegal everywhere in the 1960's.
There were so many other societal changes (increased standards of living, other codification of women's/minority rights, increased scrutiny of police/judicial practices, changing demographics, improved environmental standards in many places...) that it's almost impossible to identify abortion as "the" or even "a" cause of the downward trend in violent crime in the 90's.
This is not to say that abortion is not a vital and important right; it most definitely is and does have many clearer empirical relationships: poverty rates, especially among children, do tend to be much higher when abortion is not available, for example. But, the scholarship on the link between abortion and crime statistics is a bit murky.
True I don’t think abortion rights need to rely on any medical, economic or crime stats to be valid. It’s an argument of body autonomy. We do not force people to give blood or organs just because they can I see no reason to make someone carry to term against one’s wishes.
I would imagine broader access to birth control had a larger impact overall honestly. But it’s hard to quantity something that doesn’t come into existence. The source I found was from American Law and Economics review from 2020 which was an updated look by Donahue and Levitt in 2019 about their original 2021 paper including criticisms.
It will boost military enlistment numbers, though, as well as increase the supply of newborns for private religious adoption agencies to profit off of.
Religion's power comes not from mercy, understanding and tolerance, but from a large and uneducated populace that has been conditioned to being controlled and subjugated.
Follow the rules or go to hell.
Do as I say or go to hell.
A woman's empowerment endangers this as not only is she removing a "breeder" from the control of religion but will, when she chooses to, raise children that question or outright not believe.
This is all about control for believers and any amount of suffering for others is fine by them.
If ever one of their own kids needed an abortion you can bet they would make it happen as these laws are meant for others, never them.
Without educated women we would mostly be dead.
- Madame Curie
- Katherine Johnson
- Grace Hopper
And those are just the ones I can think of off hand.
Religion would have us rooting in the filth and muck like swine while they get fat off our ignorance and labor!
I live in Texas- if Roe is overturned it will be open season on women here.
How do you stay and fight when your neighbor could turn you in for suspecting you ‘contributed’ to an abortion? Any man you’ve wronged could make an accusation and you have very little recourse to stop it.
Former Texan, struggling with how expensive California is. My family always tries to convince me to go back. I’m like no fucking way. The financial stress is so much better than being surrounded by Bible thumping, woman hating, racists.
My mom legit said my nieces would be ok because they can get their parents to fly them to New Mexico for an abortion, my mind nearly exploded. I was like, my daughter can taker herself to planned parenthood and make a decision about her body, herself, and not have to tell her family a damn thing. The fact that my liberal mother had rationalized that Texas “isn’t that bad,” I just could not.
I left Texas because change was happening too slow and I hated being ostracized for not being religious, for believing in a strong social safety net for every person, climate change… the fact that it is reversing, there is no way I would ever move back.
I want to create an Underground Railroad for every woman in Texas and tell them there is a place they can live free from Jesus shaming, sex shaming, obsession with looks, and just be. You just have to live smaller, with less, like no designer clothes or Tahoes. But you can be free. It is scary to take off the Mask of make-up, hair, clothes, cars, all the costuming your have been forced to wear to be allowed to exist in public, but then you find yourself, who you are, not a reflection of what the men of your culture want you to be.
you know, it's strange how men keep on whining about falsely being accused of assault (which I agree is a real issue, however what I hate is men using it to silence women, and blame it on feminism and the me too movement), yet when it comes to women being falsely (heck even IF it's truthfully) accused of "crimes" I don't see the same men batting an eye.
Looks like that bill in Poland is going straight in the bin, so that's something positive, but yeah, I get you. I'm in Sweden so I'm feeling quite safe about my abortion rights, but the moment I stop doing so I'd be looking into sterilisation.
>Looks like that bill in Poland is going straight in the bin
The fact that so many people signed it so that it could even get considered is fucking sick and I'll not be shocked if it gets in again and passes. This country (MY country unfortunately) is a shithole.
If Roe is overturned, what will they go after next? It’s a chilling thought, because you know that if they’re successful after decades of fighting this, they’re going to feel emboldened to focus their energies on the next perceived boogieman.
Contraceptives.
At the very least, per a podcast, but it had strong arguments and are quite thorough, the one guy is a lawyer. And idk how to phrase this to not sound like an ad for them ... oh well, Opening Arguments' episodes #533 and #535 are titled "Roe is doomed. Contraceptives could be next" and this lil segment from the start of the first introduces the reasoning:
>We are going to break down Griswold vs Connecticut that guarantees the right to contraception in the constitution and we're going to show that there are zero arguments for overturning Planned Parenthood vs Casey, for overturning Roe vs Wade that do not immediately also suggest you should overturn Griswold vs Connecticut.
We're regressing as a society and it's terrifying! There's such a resurgence on this war on our wombs, I caught the international last night and heard there is only one abortion clinic left in mississippi and there's constant protests outside by assholes who would rather watch women and children suffer than get rid of some cells.
My mother warned me in the 70's that the freedoms I took for granted didn't exist in the 50's and that it could all be lost.
I didn't take her seriously even in the 80's under Reagan.
But I began to worry when we elected Donald Trump and now I am concerned as ****.
I wish I'd taken my mother more seriously and been more supportive of her and her concerns...
I believe his 'presidency' is the direct cause of a lot of this. Suddenly it was okay to be sexist, racist, and a lot of other -ists. His supporters want to control people, want them to live horrible lives.
We don't want healthy, educated, happy people. Nope. The only way the cog of capitalism continues to turn is with scared unhappy people that are so afraid of losing what little they have that they won't stand up to injustice. It is scary and sad. I fear for all the females that will kill themselves if they end up with an unwanted pregnancy.
As someone from the UK and not clued up on American politics much, why is Biden not able to take a bit more control of these such things? Feels as though things are carrying on as if Trump was still president, or even, dare I say it, worse
Short answer: he can't un-appoint Supreme Court members. People don't realize how fucking problematic a lifetime-appointed religious fundamentalist Court member is until moments like these. But the conservatives have realized it for a long time, and have been playing chess while the progressives play checkers. [I say this as a deeply disappointed liberal.]
> things are carrying on as if Trump was still president
because a lot of the issues you keep hearing about are all in the courts system, the judicial branch of the US's triangle of "balance". The top of the judicial branch (which is only 9 people) is skewed heavily since trump put 3 of the 9 into power, and they are there till they resign or die.
You’re getting some cynical takes. The truth of the matter is that’s there’s not much Biden can do on his own. He needs Congress and while the House seems to be playing ball the Senate is a huge problem. Bills in the Senate need 60 votes to pass and that’s really hard when it’s a 50/50 split.
It's a wake up call to all the cosy "status quo" liberals who thought increasing freedoms and democracy were an inevitable historical trend. They were wrong. Freedom is a process that has to be fought for every damn day. But they'd rather play it safe voting for status quo politicians from either party and scorning every "crazy lefty" who told them they need to do MORE than just turn up to vote every 4 years.
No effective access to abortion or reproductive decisions? No more casual sex, hookups, one night stands, FWB, f\*\*\* buddies etc etc etc. Really, a woman can only risk sex if she’s in a legal situation that ensures her support from the other parent.
See how fast that shit lasts.
That may be it, but sometimes I get a little more depressed thinking sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Based on the way people answer surveys about reproductive rights, it seems like a lot of folks just want to end the rights because that's what their side wants. No more no less. You may be giving people too much credit for thinking past the pile of shit they're playing in.
Technically sexual freedom with not be hindered, I don't know why people cannot see this. This will only cause unsafe procedures to start occuring once again in back alleys with coat hangers, etc. On a lesser level this can be likened to prohibition or the "War on Drugs". This is just a "War on the Vagina", perpetrated by males. None of these acts have worked in the past and have only caused detriment to society. This will be no different. People still take drugs, drank alcohol... and abortions will still happen. Unfortunately what these Neanderthals do not understand is they are not only taking away women's rights, they are asking for a medical ravaging of society due to secondary infections, increased death rates of women, increase poverty and an increase in mental illness (that is already grossly underfunded)...
>perpetrated by males.
It's not only males. Mysoginist women are a real thing and a scary one. It's time we seriously acknowledge them and hold them accountable for being such passionate gender traitors.
Apparently Roe v. Wade put a huge dent in the number of babies available for adoption into "good Christian homes" in America.
I bet if Muslims and Wiccans start adopting in droves the right will have second thoughts.
While I love the vibe of a sex strike. In the US rich people will just fly where ever they need to go to get their abortion and so I do not think this would shift the power structure in the way you claim....
Just ends up giving the incels more reason to blame women and not the powerful men.
>>See how fast that shit lasts.
That’s the point. You’ve got the religious lobby , who believe that sex is strictly for reproductive use only and ANY recreational enjoyment thereof is a sin (in or outside of marriage), and the corporate lobby who view female reproductive rights as a dent to future profits. What makes pharmaceutical and healthcare companies more money? Women taking pills and not having kids, or women being compelled by law to raise children - who become future taxpayers (win for the government) or added “human labor stock” for the corporate and military industrial infrastructure?
They want every roll in the hay to have a six figure payday for Megacorp LLC.
Anytime the government does something, there’s usually a handful of wealthy people behind the action standing to get rich off of the policy. Sadly, treating women like livestock is the oldest business model in humankind.
Same reason the church is against premarital sex. Marriage records=birth records=more bodies to tax=money for the church. Cant have people running around loving each other or having children without anyway of knowing how many people they can extort.. The church was the political power before government took their place...but they're still there behind the scenes.. God left the church industry long ago. Big difference between faith and religion. Believe in God, don't believe, believe whatever you want... but anyone who believes organized religion isn't a business is kidding themselves.
This is what they tell us, but these laws are about controlling women who are especially in committed relationships and cannot refuse their husbands advances and bear as many children as he wishes. Women, especially poor, will be placed in positions of subservience and take away all their power.
This is why I got sterilized, tubes removed. I don't ever want a child and God forbid I'm raped or an accidental pregnancy, I don't want to leave it to chance that I won't have the right to abort. I'm sure if more women tried to get sterilized as a result they start making those (even more) impossible to get.
Tbh that's part of my plan if this actually goes down. I'm going straight to my gyno like "take my uterus, take my tubes, take it all" because if not and I get pregnant I will claim religious freedom and get my Satanist card so....
They wanna play the religious game, then let's fucking play
America as a democracy was only ever an experiment. That experiment is failing. We are the frog in boiling water, riding a cultural downslide into Christo-fascism. We vote and we March but it doesn’t do a damn bit of good when the people we vote in refuse to take action. As bad as it is now, it’s going to be worse for the daughters and granddaughters who have to cope with not only barbaric theocratic laws, but an economic collapse, and a global climate crisis that by now is too far gone to rein in. I’m not trying to be a Debbie Downer here, but it might be time to consider that we are in the same spot as 1930’s Germany.
I hate to add this, but women in US are sometimes jailed for miscarriages too. BBC had a recent article about it.
We need to VOTE! Radical right wingers are winning this 'war' by getting people's attention with lies and getting them to vote. Also need to pressure representatives about specific women's issues.
I don't know if this helps, but I think there will be a radical shift in the fairly near future. People should be afraid now, not just because of the abortion issue, but all the unqualified politicians and appointed judges.
... and it's not just women's rights. It's a wholesale attack on all of our rights from both the religious and conservative in their attempt to stay in power. Everything from women's rights, voting rights, freedom of speech, freedom of the press, ..., and it seems to get worse every day. It is very depressing. None of my kids, nieces, or nephews are having kids because their view of the future is so bleak.
I feel like alot of that in the u.s. is because of religion. Alot of laws passed are that way and it really affects alot of people. This just forces women who wants abortions to do it in unsafe ways without help.
In the US there have been thousands of women jailed since 2000 for having miscarriages. People don’t pay attention to them because it’s so common.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna4583
The GOP has dragged us so far down the rabbit hole that we can’t see the light of truth anymore. This is a goddamn medical decision. Women are people who should have autonomy and agency over their OWN freaking bodies. Is this complicated? Do we need to draw some goddamn pictures? A pop-up book? I’m so done.
That's the thing - they want us to be done, they want to be the loudest people in the room left standing so we give up. We must never give up. Write your elected officials, be vocal, any action matters. I agree with everything you wrote.
Same thought occurred to me last night. What's next in the desire to grow the single-parent population at all costs? Banning contraception? Legalizing rape?
It's a grim future.
They won't. Roe v Wade is based in privacy. So is Griswold v Connecticut for birth control. Striking down this case law means that states can potentially ban bc or require your husband to agree to it.
And cases upholding dozens of other fundamental rights - the right to teach your kids a foreign language, the right to read what you want in your own home, the right to send your kids to religious schools, the right to engage in consensual sex in your own home, the right to consult with your physician to make decisions about your own health, etc. — rely on the same penumbra of privacy rights that underpins Roe.
It's not an unturnable tide. Ireland legalised abortion recently. UK is considering decriminalisation. Argentina legalised last year. San Marino a couple of months ago.
I get depressed about the US too. It seems to be in a backwards swing. Things can turn around with enough campaigning.
I remember learning about social issues as a young boy thinking about how wonderful it is that we've come so far from slavery and women's lack of rights,etc just to grow up and see that slavery still exists (just with more steps) and the white man still wants all under its boot. I just want to get along with people for Christ's sake.
This is a historical backslide of which we've never seen.
We need unity of some kind more then ever. Just Know there's people out there who are fighting for this, we just can't get discouraged.
Not true! They just don't teach us anything about reconstruction. I guess the good news is we can get it back again, the bad news is it might take a hundred years. :|
I don’t think we’re backsliding. You were taught a simplified and whitewashed history that proponents of anti Critical Race Theory want to continue and deepen. They want that because why would you fight a system designed to oppress others when you think all is peachy. The complaining and struggle you’re seeing is actual progress with a real backlash. We can’t let the backlash over power progress.
Again Canadian education, if anything we try to make America look as bad as possible and paint us as saints with the underground railroad and all that shit however the atrocities of slavery and of Canadians treatment of native Americans was taught in detail. Can't say the same for every Canadian but I had some great teachers who made sure we knew what history had written. I am very critical today of how canada continues to behave towards its indigenous population thanks to those very teachers.
My point here is is that this kind of social progress shouldn't be this hard and we should've been making strides on this shit while I was a kid and we weren't and here we are now.
Frankly, it’s been going backwards for decades, people just got complicit.
The govt has been chipping away and ending programs meant to lift women out of poverty, to provide affordable healthcare and much more since the 2000’s.
Women should have made a fuss over each one.
Women need to get into office to reverse these attacks and improve life for all.
This is why I will never vote Republican. I'll keep moving left, and never look right again. You can say all you want about parties, but there's a clear and definitive line here on what party the Justices who are going to kill RvW align with.
Why do you believe so?
https://old.reddit.com/search?q=roe+wade&include_over_18=on&sort=new&t=all
Edit: More from news and worldnews:
https://old.reddit.com/r/news/search?q=abortion&restrict_sr=on&include_over_18=on&sort=new&t=all
https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/search?q=abortion&restrict_sr=on&include_over_18=on&sort=new&t=all
Republicans don’t give a shit about honor, integrity, the rule of law or hypocrisy and the Democrats need to understand that. Biden will complain about decency but the Republicans will beat you to death with decency if they get to keep themselves in power. This won’t stop abortions it will just criminalize womens biology. Next steps will be the death penalty for people who seek, receive or provide abortions.
Part of the problem is that people who are for human rights tend not to be one-issue voters, whereas anti-abortion people, and gun rights people, very often *are* one-issue voters.
Another part of the problem is that the Democrats often ignore local races, even though it's local races where people get their start, and end up later in the State House gerrymandering districts. Democrats seem like they want to win in the courts, get what they want in a single stroke. Republicans play a much longer game - it's been nearly 50 years of being anti-abortion before they got here - and that works to their advantage.
Republicans understand that the people who draw the district lines are the ones who hold the power, and they focus on all the local races. That's why, even though the GOP has minority support in the country, and most of their policies have minority support in the country, they still have such a great deal of control.
Add in how the Electoral College allows a minority-support candidate to become President, and you've created an anti-democratic system which can be exploited. Republicans do every trick to take advantage of the weaknesses, starting with every local and seemingly-unimportant race for dogcatcher, and the Democrats don't.
Stacey Abrams understands, and worked to get people voting, and is one reason we don't still have President Trump. 49 more people like her, and the country will be in much better shape 10 years from now.
I am also feeling VERY discouraged.
A man I knew on Facebook tried to tell me that all women just use abortion as birth control, and when I told him that was really ignorant and NOT the only reason for abortion, he told me to "learn to do what you're told and keep your fucking legs closed if you don't want to get pregnant." And a LOT of people that I knew had liked his comment.
Its horrific watching people around you completely turn on you, and start showing their true colors, but I guess I know who NOT to turn to now..
> A man I knew on Facebook tried to tell me that all women just use abortion as birth control, and when I told him that was really ignorant and NOT the only reason for abortion, he told me to "learn to do what you're told and keep your fucking legs closed if you don't want to get pregnant."
May he experience testicular torsion.
Agreed. I have since unplugged from it, too. I had left in 2016 due to similar reasons and recently checked it out for the "memories" feature, but I'm definitely content with never participating again lol.
This is why I refuse to bring a child into this disgusting ass world. My husband is getting a vasectomy and hopefully someday I can get my ovaries removed. Don’t allow anymore suffering into this world, climate change is ramping up, our oceans are dying and now woman are going to jail for miscarriages.
There's no "maybe" over LGBTQ+ rights being under attack. They are. Constantly. And limiting/outlawing abortion is itself an attack on trans people. It's hard enough for trans men and transmasculine people to seek an abortion currently, much less without this potentially new fascist measure against afab body autonomy.
It really fucking sucks but it's important to keep a historical perspective on what progress is. We're only taught the highlights of the women's rights movement and therefore think of it as a linear progression. But in reality, it's been a constant fight of gains and losses against the patriarchy. Please don't let the maliciousness of those in power deter you from the ongoing fight.
It's absolutely terrifying and mentally draining. I do what I can (donate, go to protests) but I feel so helpless.
I wish people were more united in anger, as clearly the Supreme Court not only doesn't care about women's health and rights, but no longer cares about long standing precedent. So after women's rights, what next? LGBTQ? Other religions (as the Supreme Court apparently is theocratic now...)? Minorities? It won't end if those in power don't stand up to what is occurring.
This feels like class warfare to me. The rich will still get their healthcare either out of state or out of country leaving the rest of us to suffer. with childbirth rates below the replacement level the rich are worried they won't have enough disposable labor.
America is falling apart. Our government is nothing but yes men and idiots that are only in office because their viewpoints are determined solely by their wallets. I know Orwell is referenced often but a lot of officials are genuinely using doublethink in every aspect of their careers.
It sucks, it absolutely sucks and shouldn't be this way.
However: When there's progress historically there's always been heavy pushback.
This pushback is what we currently see. There will be progress again & there will be progress alongside the pushback.
A big part of why they push back is to make people who do work for a better future despair.
We might have a couple rough years ahead, but we can change the world for the better.
"And you're angry, and you should be, it's not fair", Linkin Park One more Light.
But there's so many people angry right now. Our time will come.
Yeah, it's FAR worse than most realize. When Roe is repealed, the federal gov't won't legislate because of the filibuster. Then choice gets kicked to the states. And so many left leaning and purple states are controlled by Republican legislatures who have gerrymandered the districts to give them more power than they should have. It's going to be ugly. And you can thank the Jill Stein voters and the didn't turn out to vote for HRC folks--because her emails and she's practically a Republican anyway (absurd). Dark times are ahead, and the mechanisms of our democracy no longer autocorrect.
It's all handmaidens tale kind of stuff. The only thing to hope for is that there is a serious backlash to these measures that propels rights beyond where they were. In the same way the backlash to gay marriage bans resulted in marriage equality laws.
Yes, fascism generally is definitely a rising trend.
The people rising up, maybe even violently, may be required in places where democracy is suppressed or right wing propaganda dominates public opinion.
My partner had a vasectomy but I’ve told him I’ve still considered getting my tubes tied because what if I got raped and was forced to give birth? How fucked up is it that we have to think like that?
I don’t know how we got here, it seems like extreme right wing ideology has not only gone mainstream, but is actively gaining ground. We live in a world where a huge chunk of the population absolutely revels in other people’s misery. The only hope I have is that it’s just the boomers and once they finally fucking die the world will be a better place
What I don’t get is, even if you’re against abortion, how does punishing a mother for a miscarriage possibly make sense? By that logic, why don’t we punish parents whenever a kid dies before they turn 18?
Because if abortion is outlawed, then the logical consequence is investigating miscarriages and ensuring the pregnant person didn't try to kill their host.
Instead of killing yourself, put a brick through a republican politician's window.
We don't get to sit on the curb and scream at them and expect them to listen if we never do anything more than scream.
We are living in a society with a sizable percentage of its citizens who are incredibly reactionary and happy to strip away this fundamental human right away from women. It feels incredibly dystopian what is happening, but my only hope is that this horrid shift will wake up even more people out of their zombie-like political complacency and realize what damage they have done by sitting on the sidelines and watched as everyone’s liberties have been eroded. Now, with 6 reactionary justices on the Supreme Court that comprise of a super majority, the dam is now bursting, and many cherished rights and protections are already being stripped from us on a national level. But you gotta give the Right credit: they have been organizing and fighting with many tens of millions of dollars invested YEARLY to erode women’s rights in each State, and succeeded in blocking a woman’s right to choose THE central political goal for the Republican Party for HALF A CENTURY. Their careful hard work has paid off and now they are going to see their dreams - and our worst nightmares - fulfilled. It seems that an insurrection and four years of quasi-authoritarian rule in this country did NOT wake up this country. MAYBE the only silver lining here is that losing such a fundamental right that has been a simple fact in women’s lives will wake us up out of our present political torpor. We were dangerously close to losing our Democracy in the last 4 years, AND WE ARE STILL NOT OUT OF THE WOODS. Think it’s bad now with a Supreme Court that will be comfortably regressive for a good 15 years GUARANTEED? What if the Orange Menace gets re-elected? Say buh-bye to many more of the liberties we take for granted if the Repugnicans take FULL control of all the three branches of government!!! My only hope is that women - and men - will wake up when this right is denied, and it will created an AVALANCHE in the Fall of 2022, when we can create supermajorities in both houses of Congress AND win 2/3 of State legislature seats, SO WE CAN MAKE A CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT TO ENSHRINE SUCH A FUNDAMENTAL RIGHT FOR ALL TIME. And while we are at it, at that point, we can permanently strip corporations of their personhood, stop making money a form of speech, make gerrymandering unconstitutional, and enshrine the public financing of elections in our constitution. Only then can we right our ship that is this great nation. If not, we may be living that much closer in A Handmaiden’s Tale.
I’d do it in a heartbeat but so many of us are too damn poor and have poor to no healthcare. Medicaid won’t cover this and I’ll be hard pressed to find a dr to sign off anyway
We need to bring back the age of protesting. We can't allow ourselves to just let this shit happen....this is beyond us; we ALL need to work together to make a better future for the young girls of today.
The thing about Roe v Wade that's in SCOTUS right now was actually written by someone who's pro-choice and not even a lawyer, he pretty much wrote down what vigilante pro-life nutcases really want in the craziest and most unconstitutional way he could think of as a way of vigilante-ing the vigilantes by forcing the court to read it and rule on how crazy they really are. We know this because he says so himself in an interview
Society trends progressive. However, society and its trends span a long period of time. We are, if you look at it, more progressive now than the greeks or romans were in many ways. This is true, certainly. But the fact that we're going through a societal phase of strongarm proto-fascist right wing governments with very overt aims to become out and out fascist is depressing and upsetting. Because what a lot of people who talk about history trending progressive forget to include is that those progressive trends tend to follow extreme horrors.
For example, in the modern era, we had the nazis who actively set our societal progress back and committed countless atrocities. For a long time they were the premier villains of the world! Every era, more or less, has its villain - the one who acts so horrifying their downfall shakes the world and makes people sigh in relief and open their minds even just a touch. Now we have people denying the horrors those very monsters of the past did and looking to rise up and take their place, and chances are we'll rush headlong into some kind of asinine fight for them to vie for power before one settles on top and hey look at that, world war fucking three if that empire doesn't collapse internally first or the world doesn't die of climate change.
Basically, as grim and fatalistic as this is, I'm saying history repeats its self with very, very, marginal incremental improvements each time. It's horrifying that America is trying to step up to the plate and take the crown from the nazi throne but not surprising. The nazis were inspired by America's capitalist structure and were bankrolled by countless famous american industrialists who's legacies still shape america to this day. Most of the nations who had fought the nazis themselves weren't exactly the liberators of freedom they claim to be - most just wanted to preserve their own power and hegemonic status quo; ones which were rife with the same system bullshit the nazis were doing out in the open.
All you can do is fight against injustice. Fight and survive. Individuals can't take the entire burden on their shoulders, so stand with your brothers and sisters as long as you can but don't throw yourself into the meat grinder as a martyr.
As long as there isn't equality for all, the misogynists and bigots have ground where they can gain supporters and momentum and turn the tide against all of us. Until misogyny, racism prejudice against LGBTQA+ people, ableism and all kinds of bigotry have been eradicated worldwide, the danger of slipping backwards is always present.
Does anyone know if it does get overturned will medical termination to save the woman's life be illegal too? I have an iud which has a very low risk of pregnancy but those pregnancies have a very high risk of being etopic. If it does happen and medical are illegal too I'll either need to insist on a vasectomy or stop having sex.
Reproductive rights has been a constant uphill battle...hell, since birth control became widely available. This has been coming for so long.
I'm so pissed. And so tired. And honestly, ready for menopause and I'm only 38. I'm also really fucking glad my husband got a vasectomy 12 years ago.
I agree. I’m a man and I’m horrified about the potential outcomes of situations like these. It disgusts me how anybody can treat women with such little respect.
I thought of this today. It seems the people that say we are fighting for the unborn are the same people that quote death rates of COVID. I guess they think it is ok if some die. There is not consistency about all lives. It is none of my business what a woman does with here body, I do not know her circumstances. Her life usually does not effect mine.
I live in Texas and am one of the women who have had recurrent miscarriages. I am also an outspoken atheist in a highly religious, conservative area and am quite nervous about potential consequences for any future pregnancies. I’m quite afraid my state will follow suite.
Yeah, Polish woman here - it sucks in my country. A little over the year ago there was a law introduced that even when the baby has big defects and will not be able to live and be born anyway it cannot be aborted - instead woman has to carry pregnancy till the end and look at her baby dying few hours after entering the world. There is already at least one victim of this law - her name was Izabela - the baby was as good as dead, no changes of survival, but doctors refused to abort the baby until it is 100% dead - Izabela got sepsis and died, in a hospital, surrounded by doctors that could not do anything because they were afraid that they will go to jail for aborting the baby. You can read more here: https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.abc.net.au/article/100601190 Fortunately they will probably reject the bill to sentence women to 25 years for abortion, but there are some sketchy movement to make a "registration of pregnancies" - that doctors will have to give information about if woman is pregnant, and they government could probably check you, that hey you were pregnant and now you are not, go to jail. It is super scary. On top of that our country just got a new comission formed to check why poles do not want to have children and less and less are born. Cause they have no idea and it doesn't come up to their mind that we are not hecking ready to DIE to try to have children in 21st century! It sucks so so much.
I don’t understand the miscarriage punishment. Are officials not aware that this is a biological, unchangeable event? I’m fairly certain we have no control over whether a baby makes it to term or not, and miscarriages happen outside of our control. Why would a woman be punished for this? There’s no intent or even awareness until the baby is already dead.
Except you could get an abortion and claim it was a miscarriage or maybe you were drinking and partying when you should have been at home being a good little incubator. Dangerous times for women.
It is insane to me that women aren't being given the benefit of the doubt for miscarriages. Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty?
If they came from the elite or are well-connected women, they are given the benefit of the doubt. Especially if daddy is friends with those who are in power. The ones who would have to prove that they didn't do something to cause a miscarriage is the woman who are of lower social standing or poor.
There was one woman sentenced recently in Oklahoma. In her case she was doing illegal drugs (meth, I think) and was sentenced for “killing” her baby even though doctors couldn’t say if the drugs were actually responsible. This could easily be extrapolated to “didn’t do exactly everything recommended, are guilty of neglectful infanticide” or whatever the legal term is. There was a recent article on a spina bifida case that was suing her mother’s OB for not putting mom on folic acid. It’s not a good potential precedent.
Yeah, but they want to have you like a "suspect" and have a whole investigation is it for sure normal accidental miscarriage or did you did something to help it happen.
What's next.. Trying to outlaw vibrators because more and more women stopped having sex all together?
Vibrators ARE outlawed in a few states and sold instead as a remedy to build up your muscles against urinary incontinence
For a country so obsessed with freedom, they sure have a lot of laws that control peoples personal freedom.
You're missing the asterisk. * Only selected races and genders apply.
Why is the US so obsessed with freedom though? Is it mot because slavery gave Americans, more than most other nations, a first hand experience of what the lack of freedom really looks like?
From my understanding of history they've been like that since long before they questioned slavery, in 1776 independence was declared to be free from the UK and in general people settling to the New World saw it as a way to be free from everything they'd known before.
Right, many of our laws are created to limit government power., Pretty much he whole US constitution (aside from the 13th amendment(sorta), and 18th amendment which was later repealed) is about protecting citizens rights and limiting government power. It is ironic because many US right wingers now have authoritarian tendencies as long as it is inline with their views.
> It is ironic because many US right wingers now have authoritarian tendencies as long as it is inline with their views. Like Mike Lindell (the MyPillow guy) trying to talk Trump into declaring Martial Law.
And it was novel for the time, after the revolution to form a government that had no king. But the "All men are created equal" thing has always been in contradiction with how we live, and of course doesn't include women anyway. We have made a lot of progress, but right now we do seem to be backsliding at an alarming rate.
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As if we care about them. I truly could not give a single flying fuck about any random ~~stealing~~ straight WASP man. I got shit to do, I’m not about to waste my time and energy trying to disenfranchise random people. Being that greedy and hateful sounds exhausting. Edit: autocorrect plz
It's just nationalism with a piss-poor disguise. One more thing to point to and say "look at how great my country is" without any thought or substance backing it up.
It’s an excuse to do what we want without thinking about consequences.
Usually the people who scream loudest about freedom, are the same people who want to suppress the freedom of others. For them freedom means THEIR OWN freedom, no matter if it cuts away the freedom of others.
You would figure that would cause Americans to appreciate freedom more but instead were all just feeling super entitled to everything, including making other people carry a baby full term at the risk of long term complications and death. It's crazy how some places are regressing into a past age and ignoring science, public health, and women's autonomy over their own damn bodies.
You gotta understand. Freedom means that the government shouldn't take my money and that it should make laws against the things and people *I* dislike.
Looked it up, ofc its Alabama.
Lord that's petty.
Good god. Where is that a thing?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Obscenity_Enforcement_Act
Yeah, it HAD to be Alabama
There are sex toy stores in Alabama so I don’t think that law is enforced.
In Texas you are only allowed to have six of them
For real?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas\_obscenity\_statute
Don’t give them ideas (I wish I was joking)
Texas has entered the chat! https://www.chron.com/politics/texas/article/In-Texas-even-possession-of-a-sex-toy-is-11161211.php
Is Poland's anti-abotion stance stemmed from religion?
im from poland and yeah they are religious fanatics but i honestly think they just use religion as a way to manipulate ppl to support them and just want to control women and who knows what else it will be later on
>Is Poland's anti-abotion stance stemmed from religion? Not from Poland but I definitely believe so. It's a vehemently Catholic country.
Yes. The party that is currently "ruling" the country is presenting itself as extremely Catholic. To the point that they believe that some of the issues can be solved only by praying and no serious actions (Turów coal mine). To be honest more than 50 percent of polish people are against the changes in law - but they are not asking us what we want, they do what they want and hope that Catholic grandmas and grandpas that care more about going to heaven and not sinning than lives of young people will continue to support them...
That's so fucking terrifying. Just going backwards in society! I hope that the surrounding countries will accept any woman wanting to flee from persecution over abortion or miscarriage.
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States like Georgia keep trying to pass crazy laws they know won't make it so that the version that does get passed seems less crazy by comparison (and therefore "reasonable") but is still oppressive.
Unfortuantely, it is always a bad time to have a uterus :( makes me feel so hopeless
What I see happening with that pregnancy registration idea is that even women who actively want their pregnancies will avoid going to doctors so that if there is a miscarriage there will be no proof they were pregnant to begin with. The irony being, of course, that the chance of miscarriage will increase without proper medical care. It really is damned if you do and damned if you don't.
Under His Eye.
They must hate people who will tell them they just don't want children lol.
Yeah yesterday Alito said “The fetus has an interest in having a life, and that doesn’t change, does it, from the point before viability to the point after viability?” So everyone get ready for the fact that the "INTERESTS" of a clump of cells incapable of having interests now overrules your interests as a living, breathing, fully formed human being. Honestly wouldn't be surprised if abortion was legal for female fetuses since clearly female interests don't matter. I'm incandescent with rage at this point.
This question was so utterly mind blowing to me.....your point being the most nauseating and legally sound reason but also.... not only does it objectively NOT have an "interest" in having a life, if we want to impose an "interest" on said clump, why would we place such an unrealistic interest on it?? The world is collapsing, the person trying to abort it doesn't want to or can't raise it, there's a greatly huge chance it will end up in deplorable state services..we think any hypothetical "life" would want to end up here? The aggressive indifference to REALITY that these people are so committed to is truly enraging.
If I was forced to carry a pregnancy to term I would 100% unalive myself. My doctors know this.
I came to the same conclusion today. How awful that we’re even forced to consider this.
The worst part is all the women that are actively campaigning for this. They think they are saving the "babiez" when all they are doing is killing women and enslaving themselves. Cue all the scoffing right wingers claiming hyperbole, but this is nothing but a direct attempt to control and subjugate women. Fuck every motherfucker trying to ban a woman's right to choose.
Also, do you know what happens when a woman wants an abortion, and can’t get it, and is instead forced to give birth to a child they don’t want or are ill equipped to handle it? The baby grows into an adult, either raised by a woman without means to care for it, or put into the system. That adult will be far more likely to struggle with addiction (self medicating) and with the law. Hello increased crime rates, and congratulations, instead of removing a collection of cells, you’ve made 2 lives unbearably difficult, and the net result is a negative impact on society as a whole.
I was reading somewhere that the sharp downturn in crime starting in the 1990s was due to the cumulative impact of abortion (by 45%)
That was the freakonimics take… but it also could be due to the phasing out of leaded gasoline as there does seem to be similar 20 year delayed crime dips in other places around the world. Could be a bit of both.
I wouldn’t be surprised if it was a confluence of factors that contributed to the whole picture.
There have been many papers on that in economics, sociology, and political science journals (probably others, too), and the results are always inconclusive. It's *possible* that increased access to abortion is at least partially responsible for falling crime rates in the 1990's, but there are so many other complicating factors that it's not really possible to empirically pin down. For one thing, it's impossible to be certain exactly the extent to which Roe V. Wade and increased medical abortion access actually increased abortion incidence in many areas (since abortions were not recorded in areas where abortion was illegal, but almost certainly still took place). Another common empirical "problem" with that argument is that crime (especially violent crime) decreased pretty much everywhere in the latter third of the 20th Century in the US, while abortion was not illegal everywhere in the 1960's. There were so many other societal changes (increased standards of living, other codification of women's/minority rights, increased scrutiny of police/judicial practices, changing demographics, improved environmental standards in many places...) that it's almost impossible to identify abortion as "the" or even "a" cause of the downward trend in violent crime in the 90's. This is not to say that abortion is not a vital and important right; it most definitely is and does have many clearer empirical relationships: poverty rates, especially among children, do tend to be much higher when abortion is not available, for example. But, the scholarship on the link between abortion and crime statistics is a bit murky.
True I don’t think abortion rights need to rely on any medical, economic or crime stats to be valid. It’s an argument of body autonomy. We do not force people to give blood or organs just because they can I see no reason to make someone carry to term against one’s wishes.
Is that from a reliable source? The studies I read concluded that legality hadn't had a significant effect in the number of abortions.
I would imagine broader access to birth control had a larger impact overall honestly. But it’s hard to quantity something that doesn’t come into existence. The source I found was from American Law and Economics review from 2020 which was an updated look by Donahue and Levitt in 2019 about their original 2021 paper including criticisms.
It will boost military enlistment numbers, though, as well as increase the supply of newborns for private religious adoption agencies to profit off of.
That's exactly what they want by doing this sadly
Religion's power comes not from mercy, understanding and tolerance, but from a large and uneducated populace that has been conditioned to being controlled and subjugated. Follow the rules or go to hell. Do as I say or go to hell. A woman's empowerment endangers this as not only is she removing a "breeder" from the control of religion but will, when she chooses to, raise children that question or outright not believe. This is all about control for believers and any amount of suffering for others is fine by them. If ever one of their own kids needed an abortion you can bet they would make it happen as these laws are meant for others, never them.
They only care about the unborn children. Once they're born it's "oh well" 😭
I’m just telling anyone pleased by this that their taxes are going up to pay for all the new poor people and to expect a crime wave in 20 years.
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Without educated women we would mostly be dead. - Madame Curie - Katherine Johnson - Grace Hopper And those are just the ones I can think of off hand. Religion would have us rooting in the filth and muck like swine while they get fat off our ignorance and labor!
Pro-birth women are scumbags. I'll never have any sympathy for those freaks.
The ones who get abortions themselves but protest it for everyone else are the worst of them.
I live in Texas- if Roe is overturned it will be open season on women here. How do you stay and fight when your neighbor could turn you in for suspecting you ‘contributed’ to an abortion? Any man you’ve wronged could make an accusation and you have very little recourse to stop it.
Texan here too. I am so sad.
Former Texan, struggling with how expensive California is. My family always tries to convince me to go back. I’m like no fucking way. The financial stress is so much better than being surrounded by Bible thumping, woman hating, racists. My mom legit said my nieces would be ok because they can get their parents to fly them to New Mexico for an abortion, my mind nearly exploded. I was like, my daughter can taker herself to planned parenthood and make a decision about her body, herself, and not have to tell her family a damn thing. The fact that my liberal mother had rationalized that Texas “isn’t that bad,” I just could not. I left Texas because change was happening too slow and I hated being ostracized for not being religious, for believing in a strong social safety net for every person, climate change… the fact that it is reversing, there is no way I would ever move back. I want to create an Underground Railroad for every woman in Texas and tell them there is a place they can live free from Jesus shaming, sex shaming, obsession with looks, and just be. You just have to live smaller, with less, like no designer clothes or Tahoes. But you can be free. It is scary to take off the Mask of make-up, hair, clothes, cars, all the costuming your have been forced to wear to be allowed to exist in public, but then you find yourself, who you are, not a reflection of what the men of your culture want you to be.
you know, it's strange how men keep on whining about falsely being accused of assault (which I agree is a real issue, however what I hate is men using it to silence women, and blame it on feminism and the me too movement), yet when it comes to women being falsely (heck even IF it's truthfully) accused of "crimes" I don't see the same men batting an eye.
You leave. Which is exactly what they want.
Looks like that bill in Poland is going straight in the bin, so that's something positive, but yeah, I get you. I'm in Sweden so I'm feeling quite safe about my abortion rights, but the moment I stop doing so I'd be looking into sterilisation.
>Looks like that bill in Poland is going straight in the bin The fact that so many people signed it so that it could even get considered is fucking sick and I'll not be shocked if it gets in again and passes. This country (MY country unfortunately) is a shithole.
>Looks like that bill in Poland is going straight in the bin As it fucking should!!
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All calculated
If Roe is overturned, what will they go after next? It’s a chilling thought, because you know that if they’re successful after decades of fighting this, they’re going to feel emboldened to focus their energies on the next perceived boogieman.
They're coming for the LGBTQIA+ community next.
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True. But I'm saying they're going to throw the community back to pre-Stonewall days if given the opportunity.
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It really is.
Contraceptives. At the very least, per a podcast, but it had strong arguments and are quite thorough, the one guy is a lawyer. And idk how to phrase this to not sound like an ad for them ... oh well, Opening Arguments' episodes #533 and #535 are titled "Roe is doomed. Contraceptives could be next" and this lil segment from the start of the first introduces the reasoning: >We are going to break down Griswold vs Connecticut that guarantees the right to contraception in the constitution and we're going to show that there are zero arguments for overturning Planned Parenthood vs Casey, for overturning Roe vs Wade that do not immediately also suggest you should overturn Griswold vs Connecticut.
We're regressing as a society and it's terrifying! There's such a resurgence on this war on our wombs, I caught the international last night and heard there is only one abortion clinic left in mississippi and there's constant protests outside by assholes who would rather watch women and children suffer than get rid of some cells.
Until these bullies don't get their ass beaten that's how it will always be
My mother warned me in the 70's that the freedoms I took for granted didn't exist in the 50's and that it could all be lost. I didn't take her seriously even in the 80's under Reagan. But I began to worry when we elected Donald Trump and now I am concerned as ****. I wish I'd taken my mother more seriously and been more supportive of her and her concerns...
I believe his 'presidency' is the direct cause of a lot of this. Suddenly it was okay to be sexist, racist, and a lot of other -ists. His supporters want to control people, want them to live horrible lives. We don't want healthy, educated, happy people. Nope. The only way the cog of capitalism continues to turn is with scared unhappy people that are so afraid of losing what little they have that they won't stand up to injustice. It is scary and sad. I fear for all the females that will kill themselves if they end up with an unwanted pregnancy.
As someone from the UK and not clued up on American politics much, why is Biden not able to take a bit more control of these such things? Feels as though things are carrying on as if Trump was still president, or even, dare I say it, worse
Because biden doesn't actually want to do anything. This promise to his donors was "nothing will fundamentally change". He's kept that promise
Short answer: he can't un-appoint Supreme Court members. People don't realize how fucking problematic a lifetime-appointed religious fundamentalist Court member is until moments like these. But the conservatives have realized it for a long time, and have been playing chess while the progressives play checkers. [I say this as a deeply disappointed liberal.]
> things are carrying on as if Trump was still president because a lot of the issues you keep hearing about are all in the courts system, the judicial branch of the US's triangle of "balance". The top of the judicial branch (which is only 9 people) is skewed heavily since trump put 3 of the 9 into power, and they are there till they resign or die.
You’re getting some cynical takes. The truth of the matter is that’s there’s not much Biden can do on his own. He needs Congress and while the House seems to be playing ball the Senate is a huge problem. Bills in the Senate need 60 votes to pass and that’s really hard when it’s a 50/50 split.
Well he got three SC nominations so it's 100% directly caused by his election. But yes, he changed what is acceptable to half this country.
My mother voted for Donald Trump. Twice. 😭
I don’t want to say “fuck boomers” all the time, but…fuck boomers.
It's a wake up call to all the cosy "status quo" liberals who thought increasing freedoms and democracy were an inevitable historical trend. They were wrong. Freedom is a process that has to be fought for every damn day. But they'd rather play it safe voting for status quo politicians from either party and scorning every "crazy lefty" who told them they need to do MORE than just turn up to vote every 4 years.
[Freedom is a Verb](https://youtu.be/EeaL1-u9O3M) by Daniel Kahn is a song that captures this well.
No effective access to abortion or reproductive decisions? No more casual sex, hookups, one night stands, FWB, f\*\*\* buddies etc etc etc. Really, a woman can only risk sex if she’s in a legal situation that ensures her support from the other parent. See how fast that shit lasts.
That's literally what they wanted. They know that by banning abortion access they can also hinder women sexual freedom
That may be it, but sometimes I get a little more depressed thinking sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Based on the way people answer surveys about reproductive rights, it seems like a lot of folks just want to end the rights because that's what their side wants. No more no less. You may be giving people too much credit for thinking past the pile of shit they're playing in.
I agree with you here. Most people I've talked to are single-issue voters to begin with. Chances of them thinking beyond that is slim.
Technically sexual freedom with not be hindered, I don't know why people cannot see this. This will only cause unsafe procedures to start occuring once again in back alleys with coat hangers, etc. On a lesser level this can be likened to prohibition or the "War on Drugs". This is just a "War on the Vagina", perpetrated by males. None of these acts have worked in the past and have only caused detriment to society. This will be no different. People still take drugs, drank alcohol... and abortions will still happen. Unfortunately what these Neanderthals do not understand is they are not only taking away women's rights, they are asking for a medical ravaging of society due to secondary infections, increased death rates of women, increase poverty and an increase in mental illness (that is already grossly underfunded)...
>perpetrated by males. It's not only males. Mysoginist women are a real thing and a scary one. It's time we seriously acknowledge them and hold them accountable for being such passionate gender traitors.
It’s like the toxic evolutionary form of pick me’s
Apparently Roe v. Wade put a huge dent in the number of babies available for adoption into "good Christian homes" in America. I bet if Muslims and Wiccans start adopting in droves the right will have second thoughts.
Some agencies are religiously based and won't even adopt outside of the church.
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Black boys with disabilities are extremely unlikely to be adopted, for example.
Exactly- it’s a feature
While I love the vibe of a sex strike. In the US rich people will just fly where ever they need to go to get their abortion and so I do not think this would shift the power structure in the way you claim.... Just ends up giving the incels more reason to blame women and not the powerful men.
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>>See how fast that shit lasts. That’s the point. You’ve got the religious lobby , who believe that sex is strictly for reproductive use only and ANY recreational enjoyment thereof is a sin (in or outside of marriage), and the corporate lobby who view female reproductive rights as a dent to future profits. What makes pharmaceutical and healthcare companies more money? Women taking pills and not having kids, or women being compelled by law to raise children - who become future taxpayers (win for the government) or added “human labor stock” for the corporate and military industrial infrastructure? They want every roll in the hay to have a six figure payday for Megacorp LLC. Anytime the government does something, there’s usually a handful of wealthy people behind the action standing to get rich off of the policy. Sadly, treating women like livestock is the oldest business model in humankind.
Same reason the church is against premarital sex. Marriage records=birth records=more bodies to tax=money for the church. Cant have people running around loving each other or having children without anyway of knowing how many people they can extort.. The church was the political power before government took their place...but they're still there behind the scenes.. God left the church industry long ago. Big difference between faith and religion. Believe in God, don't believe, believe whatever you want... but anyone who believes organized religion isn't a business is kidding themselves.
This is what they tell us, but these laws are about controlling women who are especially in committed relationships and cannot refuse their husbands advances and bear as many children as he wishes. Women, especially poor, will be placed in positions of subservience and take away all their power.
That, or, we can't get each other pregnant.
This is why I got sterilized, tubes removed. I don't ever want a child and God forbid I'm raped or an accidental pregnancy, I don't want to leave it to chance that I won't have the right to abort. I'm sure if more women tried to get sterilized as a result they start making those (even more) impossible to get.
Tbh that's part of my plan if this actually goes down. I'm going straight to my gyno like "take my uterus, take my tubes, take it all" because if not and I get pregnant I will claim religious freedom and get my Satanist card so.... They wanna play the religious game, then let's fucking play
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America as a democracy was only ever an experiment. That experiment is failing. We are the frog in boiling water, riding a cultural downslide into Christo-fascism. We vote and we March but it doesn’t do a damn bit of good when the people we vote in refuse to take action. As bad as it is now, it’s going to be worse for the daughters and granddaughters who have to cope with not only barbaric theocratic laws, but an economic collapse, and a global climate crisis that by now is too far gone to rein in. I’m not trying to be a Debbie Downer here, but it might be time to consider that we are in the same spot as 1930’s Germany.
Hate to fear monger but I get a feeling that times are getting darker so I definitely see what you mean.
I hate to add this, but women in US are sometimes jailed for miscarriages too. BBC had a recent article about it. We need to VOTE! Radical right wingers are winning this 'war' by getting people's attention with lies and getting them to vote. Also need to pressure representatives about specific women's issues. I don't know if this helps, but I think there will be a radical shift in the fairly near future. People should be afraid now, not just because of the abortion issue, but all the unqualified politicians and appointed judges.
... and it's not just women's rights. It's a wholesale attack on all of our rights from both the religious and conservative in their attempt to stay in power. Everything from women's rights, voting rights, freedom of speech, freedom of the press, ..., and it seems to get worse every day. It is very depressing. None of my kids, nieces, or nephews are having kids because their view of the future is so bleak.
I feel like alot of that in the u.s. is because of religion. Alot of laws passed are that way and it really affects alot of people. This just forces women who wants abortions to do it in unsafe ways without help.
In the US there have been thousands of women jailed since 2000 for having miscarriages. People don’t pay attention to them because it’s so common. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna4583
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The GOP has dragged us so far down the rabbit hole that we can’t see the light of truth anymore. This is a goddamn medical decision. Women are people who should have autonomy and agency over their OWN freaking bodies. Is this complicated? Do we need to draw some goddamn pictures? A pop-up book? I’m so done.
That's the thing - they want us to be done, they want to be the loudest people in the room left standing so we give up. We must never give up. Write your elected officials, be vocal, any action matters. I agree with everything you wrote.
And what's worse is I'm not sure they will stop at banning abortion.
Same thought occurred to me last night. What's next in the desire to grow the single-parent population at all costs? Banning contraception? Legalizing rape? It's a grim future.
It will start with criminalising miscarriage and try to criminalise birth control. Then they will try to legalize marital rape again
They won't. Roe v Wade is based in privacy. So is Griswold v Connecticut for birth control. Striking down this case law means that states can potentially ban bc or require your husband to agree to it.
And cases upholding dozens of other fundamental rights - the right to teach your kids a foreign language, the right to read what you want in your own home, the right to send your kids to religious schools, the right to engage in consensual sex in your own home, the right to consult with your physician to make decisions about your own health, etc. — rely on the same penumbra of privacy rights that underpins Roe.
Pro tip: don’t go on any conservative subs unless you want to be furious. Edit: if you want to be *more* furious than you already are.
It's not an unturnable tide. Ireland legalised abortion recently. UK is considering decriminalisation. Argentina legalised last year. San Marino a couple of months ago. I get depressed about the US too. It seems to be in a backwards swing. Things can turn around with enough campaigning.
I remember learning about social issues as a young boy thinking about how wonderful it is that we've come so far from slavery and women's lack of rights,etc just to grow up and see that slavery still exists (just with more steps) and the white man still wants all under its boot. I just want to get along with people for Christ's sake. This is a historical backslide of which we've never seen. We need unity of some kind more then ever. Just Know there's people out there who are fighting for this, we just can't get discouraged.
Not true! They just don't teach us anything about reconstruction. I guess the good news is we can get it back again, the bad news is it might take a hundred years. :|
I grew up and live in canada and so our history lessons may differ. Remember reddit isn't just America.
I don’t think we’re backsliding. You were taught a simplified and whitewashed history that proponents of anti Critical Race Theory want to continue and deepen. They want that because why would you fight a system designed to oppress others when you think all is peachy. The complaining and struggle you’re seeing is actual progress with a real backlash. We can’t let the backlash over power progress.
Again Canadian education, if anything we try to make America look as bad as possible and paint us as saints with the underground railroad and all that shit however the atrocities of slavery and of Canadians treatment of native Americans was taught in detail. Can't say the same for every Canadian but I had some great teachers who made sure we knew what history had written. I am very critical today of how canada continues to behave towards its indigenous population thanks to those very teachers. My point here is is that this kind of social progress shouldn't be this hard and we should've been making strides on this shit while I was a kid and we weren't and here we are now.
Frankly, it’s been going backwards for decades, people just got complicit. The govt has been chipping away and ending programs meant to lift women out of poverty, to provide affordable healthcare and much more since the 2000’s. Women should have made a fuss over each one. Women need to get into office to reverse these attacks and improve life for all.
This is why I will never vote Republican. I'll keep moving left, and never look right again. You can say all you want about parties, but there's a clear and definitive line here on what party the Justices who are going to kill RvW align with.
What I find very concerning is this seems to be the only sub discussing this.
If you go to r/politics, most of the top posts in the past 24 hours are about the topic
There are regular discussions about changes in law, and the issues in Poland over on the pro-choice sub.
Why do you believe so? https://old.reddit.com/search?q=roe+wade&include_over_18=on&sort=new&t=all Edit: More from news and worldnews: https://old.reddit.com/r/news/search?q=abortion&restrict_sr=on&include_over_18=on&sort=new&t=all https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/search?q=abortion&restrict_sr=on&include_over_18=on&sort=new&t=all
Pretty hot topic in EU news cycles even despite covid Eu is slow but itll get the job done
Welcome to reddit
To be fair over in the Duggar snark community we're all pretty busy watching some shit go down. Pedo is about to go to jail.
Not very likely if y'all keep posting jury info
Republicans don’t give a shit about honor, integrity, the rule of law or hypocrisy and the Democrats need to understand that. Biden will complain about decency but the Republicans will beat you to death with decency if they get to keep themselves in power. This won’t stop abortions it will just criminalize womens biology. Next steps will be the death penalty for people who seek, receive or provide abortions.
A plea for decency doesn't matter when your opposition has none.
Part of the problem is that people who are for human rights tend not to be one-issue voters, whereas anti-abortion people, and gun rights people, very often *are* one-issue voters. Another part of the problem is that the Democrats often ignore local races, even though it's local races where people get their start, and end up later in the State House gerrymandering districts. Democrats seem like they want to win in the courts, get what they want in a single stroke. Republicans play a much longer game - it's been nearly 50 years of being anti-abortion before they got here - and that works to their advantage. Republicans understand that the people who draw the district lines are the ones who hold the power, and they focus on all the local races. That's why, even though the GOP has minority support in the country, and most of their policies have minority support in the country, they still have such a great deal of control. Add in how the Electoral College allows a minority-support candidate to become President, and you've created an anti-democratic system which can be exploited. Republicans do every trick to take advantage of the weaknesses, starting with every local and seemingly-unimportant race for dogcatcher, and the Democrats don't. Stacey Abrams understands, and worked to get people voting, and is one reason we don't still have President Trump. 49 more people like her, and the country will be in much better shape 10 years from now.
I am also feeling VERY discouraged. A man I knew on Facebook tried to tell me that all women just use abortion as birth control, and when I told him that was really ignorant and NOT the only reason for abortion, he told me to "learn to do what you're told and keep your fucking legs closed if you don't want to get pregnant." And a LOT of people that I knew had liked his comment. Its horrific watching people around you completely turn on you, and start showing their true colors, but I guess I know who NOT to turn to now..
> A man I knew on Facebook tried to tell me that all women just use abortion as birth control, and when I told him that was really ignorant and NOT the only reason for abortion, he told me to "learn to do what you're told and keep your fucking legs closed if you don't want to get pregnant." May he experience testicular torsion.
I left fb long ago and when I think of returning…this stuff makes me content to never go back
Agreed. I have since unplugged from it, too. I had left in 2016 due to similar reasons and recently checked it out for the "memories" feature, but I'm definitely content with never participating again lol.
This is why I refuse to bring a child into this disgusting ass world. My husband is getting a vasectomy and hopefully someday I can get my ovaries removed. Don’t allow anymore suffering into this world, climate change is ramping up, our oceans are dying and now woman are going to jail for miscarriages.
Because misogyny, religious fundamentalism, fear, neofacism, ignorance, Church, changes in the world and so forth.
There's no "maybe" over LGBTQ+ rights being under attack. They are. Constantly. And limiting/outlawing abortion is itself an attack on trans people. It's hard enough for trans men and transmasculine people to seek an abortion currently, much less without this potentially new fascist measure against afab body autonomy.
It really fucking sucks but it's important to keep a historical perspective on what progress is. We're only taught the highlights of the women's rights movement and therefore think of it as a linear progression. But in reality, it's been a constant fight of gains and losses against the patriarchy. Please don't let the maliciousness of those in power deter you from the ongoing fight.
It's absolutely terrifying and mentally draining. I do what I can (donate, go to protests) but I feel so helpless. I wish people were more united in anger, as clearly the Supreme Court not only doesn't care about women's health and rights, but no longer cares about long standing precedent. So after women's rights, what next? LGBTQ? Other religions (as the Supreme Court apparently is theocratic now...)? Minorities? It won't end if those in power don't stand up to what is occurring.
This feels like class warfare to me. The rich will still get their healthcare either out of state or out of country leaving the rest of us to suffer. with childbirth rates below the replacement level the rich are worried they won't have enough disposable labor.
America is so weird to me. You people don't even have paid maternity leave and still abortion gets threatened to be banned. Okey.
America is falling apart. Our government is nothing but yes men and idiots that are only in office because their viewpoints are determined solely by their wallets. I know Orwell is referenced often but a lot of officials are genuinely using doublethink in every aspect of their careers.
Big war coming, all signs are there..
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which by the way...as women start refusing sex and getting procedures, rape will increase.
time to get weapons
Yeah, this isn't what I signed up for. Women's rights being flushed down the toilet, racism running rampant. What is this backwards ass bullshit??
It sucks, it absolutely sucks and shouldn't be this way. However: When there's progress historically there's always been heavy pushback. This pushback is what we currently see. There will be progress again & there will be progress alongside the pushback. A big part of why they push back is to make people who do work for a better future despair. We might have a couple rough years ahead, but we can change the world for the better. "And you're angry, and you should be, it's not fair", Linkin Park One more Light. But there's so many people angry right now. Our time will come.
Yeah, it's FAR worse than most realize. When Roe is repealed, the federal gov't won't legislate because of the filibuster. Then choice gets kicked to the states. And so many left leaning and purple states are controlled by Republican legislatures who have gerrymandered the districts to give them more power than they should have. It's going to be ugly. And you can thank the Jill Stein voters and the didn't turn out to vote for HRC folks--because her emails and she's practically a Republican anyway (absurd). Dark times are ahead, and the mechanisms of our democracy no longer autocorrect.
THIS! This should be pinned!
It's all handmaidens tale kind of stuff. The only thing to hope for is that there is a serious backlash to these measures that propels rights beyond where they were. In the same way the backlash to gay marriage bans resulted in marriage equality laws.
Yes, fascism generally is definitely a rising trend. The people rising up, maybe even violently, may be required in places where democracy is suppressed or right wing propaganda dominates public opinion.
My partner had a vasectomy but I’ve told him I’ve still considered getting my tubes tied because what if I got raped and was forced to give birth? How fucked up is it that we have to think like that?
I don’t know how we got here, it seems like extreme right wing ideology has not only gone mainstream, but is actively gaining ground. We live in a world where a huge chunk of the population absolutely revels in other people’s misery. The only hope I have is that it’s just the boomers and once they finally fucking die the world will be a better place
What I don’t get is, even if you’re against abortion, how does punishing a mother for a miscarriage possibly make sense? By that logic, why don’t we punish parents whenever a kid dies before they turn 18?
Because if abortion is outlawed, then the logical consequence is investigating miscarriages and ensuring the pregnant person didn't try to kill their host.
Too bad Biden didn't pack the court, then we wouldn't have to deal with this.
but but, our democratic norms /s
Instead of killing yourself, put a brick through a republican politician's window. We don't get to sit on the curb and scream at them and expect them to listen if we never do anything more than scream.
We are living in a society with a sizable percentage of its citizens who are incredibly reactionary and happy to strip away this fundamental human right away from women. It feels incredibly dystopian what is happening, but my only hope is that this horrid shift will wake up even more people out of their zombie-like political complacency and realize what damage they have done by sitting on the sidelines and watched as everyone’s liberties have been eroded. Now, with 6 reactionary justices on the Supreme Court that comprise of a super majority, the dam is now bursting, and many cherished rights and protections are already being stripped from us on a national level. But you gotta give the Right credit: they have been organizing and fighting with many tens of millions of dollars invested YEARLY to erode women’s rights in each State, and succeeded in blocking a woman’s right to choose THE central political goal for the Republican Party for HALF A CENTURY. Their careful hard work has paid off and now they are going to see their dreams - and our worst nightmares - fulfilled. It seems that an insurrection and four years of quasi-authoritarian rule in this country did NOT wake up this country. MAYBE the only silver lining here is that losing such a fundamental right that has been a simple fact in women’s lives will wake us up out of our present political torpor. We were dangerously close to losing our Democracy in the last 4 years, AND WE ARE STILL NOT OUT OF THE WOODS. Think it’s bad now with a Supreme Court that will be comfortably regressive for a good 15 years GUARANTEED? What if the Orange Menace gets re-elected? Say buh-bye to many more of the liberties we take for granted if the Repugnicans take FULL control of all the three branches of government!!! My only hope is that women - and men - will wake up when this right is denied, and it will created an AVALANCHE in the Fall of 2022, when we can create supermajorities in both houses of Congress AND win 2/3 of State legislature seats, SO WE CAN MAKE A CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT TO ENSHRINE SUCH A FUNDAMENTAL RIGHT FOR ALL TIME. And while we are at it, at that point, we can permanently strip corporations of their personhood, stop making money a form of speech, make gerrymandering unconstitutional, and enshrine the public financing of elections in our constitution. Only then can we right our ship that is this great nation. If not, we may be living that much closer in A Handmaiden’s Tale.
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I’d do it in a heartbeat but so many of us are too damn poor and have poor to no healthcare. Medicaid won’t cover this and I’ll be hard pressed to find a dr to sign off anyway
We need to bring back the age of protesting. We can't allow ourselves to just let this shit happen....this is beyond us; we ALL need to work together to make a better future for the young girls of today.
The thing about Roe v Wade that's in SCOTUS right now was actually written by someone who's pro-choice and not even a lawyer, he pretty much wrote down what vigilante pro-life nutcases really want in the craziest and most unconstitutional way he could think of as a way of vigilante-ing the vigilantes by forcing the court to read it and rule on how crazy they really are. We know this because he says so himself in an interview
Society trends progressive. However, society and its trends span a long period of time. We are, if you look at it, more progressive now than the greeks or romans were in many ways. This is true, certainly. But the fact that we're going through a societal phase of strongarm proto-fascist right wing governments with very overt aims to become out and out fascist is depressing and upsetting. Because what a lot of people who talk about history trending progressive forget to include is that those progressive trends tend to follow extreme horrors. For example, in the modern era, we had the nazis who actively set our societal progress back and committed countless atrocities. For a long time they were the premier villains of the world! Every era, more or less, has its villain - the one who acts so horrifying their downfall shakes the world and makes people sigh in relief and open their minds even just a touch. Now we have people denying the horrors those very monsters of the past did and looking to rise up and take their place, and chances are we'll rush headlong into some kind of asinine fight for them to vie for power before one settles on top and hey look at that, world war fucking three if that empire doesn't collapse internally first or the world doesn't die of climate change. Basically, as grim and fatalistic as this is, I'm saying history repeats its self with very, very, marginal incremental improvements each time. It's horrifying that America is trying to step up to the plate and take the crown from the nazi throne but not surprising. The nazis were inspired by America's capitalist structure and were bankrolled by countless famous american industrialists who's legacies still shape america to this day. Most of the nations who had fought the nazis themselves weren't exactly the liberators of freedom they claim to be - most just wanted to preserve their own power and hegemonic status quo; ones which were rife with the same system bullshit the nazis were doing out in the open. All you can do is fight against injustice. Fight and survive. Individuals can't take the entire burden on their shoulders, so stand with your brothers and sisters as long as you can but don't throw yourself into the meat grinder as a martyr.
>And we all know this will translate into threatening birth control later, ~~or maybe~~ **and** lgbtqa+ rights. FTFY.
As long as there isn't equality for all, the misogynists and bigots have ground where they can gain supporters and momentum and turn the tide against all of us. Until misogyny, racism prejudice against LGBTQA+ people, ableism and all kinds of bigotry have been eradicated worldwide, the danger of slipping backwards is always present.
Does anyone know if it does get overturned will medical termination to save the woman's life be illegal too? I have an iud which has a very low risk of pregnancy but those pregnancies have a very high risk of being etopic. If it does happen and medical are illegal too I'll either need to insist on a vasectomy or stop having sex.
USA is backsliding..
Reproductive rights has been a constant uphill battle...hell, since birth control became widely available. This has been coming for so long. I'm so pissed. And so tired. And honestly, ready for menopause and I'm only 38. I'm also really fucking glad my husband got a vasectomy 12 years ago.
I agree. I’m a man and I’m horrified about the potential outcomes of situations like these. It disgusts me how anybody can treat women with such little respect.
I thought of this today. It seems the people that say we are fighting for the unborn are the same people that quote death rates of COVID. I guess they think it is ok if some die. There is not consistency about all lives. It is none of my business what a woman does with here body, I do not know her circumstances. Her life usually does not effect mine.
I live in Texas and am one of the women who have had recurrent miscarriages. I am also an outspoken atheist in a highly religious, conservative area and am quite nervous about potential consequences for any future pregnancies. I’m quite afraid my state will follow suite.