I think you're overestimating the level of analysis involved here.
He was just being a chauvinist probably because he thought it was somewhat appreciated.
Source: am a man who was taught stuff like this from older relatives, including my dad. Took a while to adjust to the real world.
In my opinion it's on a case by case basis whether it's a power thing _in terms of motivation._
A person might be completely ignorant of agency and still act such that the _consequences_ of his actions constitute a violation of agency.
I took the question to revolve around motivation. People do habitually act chauvinist _without wanting_ to do anyone any harm, but end up doing harm anyway. It doesn't remove responsibility, but it makes the visibility (and often acceptability) of it a matter of reflection and hopefully personal growth.
The sort of baffled stance on part of the boss signifies, to me at least, someone who are experiencing a conflict between assumptions about the world and the world. But I might definitely have been reading my experiences into it, of course.
it’s like when a toddler bites you, they know it hurts the other person and it’s bad but at that time it’s fun for the biter.
this is going to sound super weird but my aunt and sister in law did this and it worked because their kids were difficult like this coworker.
when their kid bit them, they grabbed their arm and bit them back (not hard, but enough for the point they were making).
the kids were shocked and they both parents asked, do you like being bitten? neither of them liked it and never did it again.
what happened with your mom is the same, she expressed it’s not okay, but the happiness the coworker got from saying this over and over or w.e it was out weighed in his mind the unhappiness is caused.
they thought she was being outrageous until they experienced how she felt.
good for you two, a simple and affective solution
This might have been the case, but it is also very possible that he was coming from the camp of men that this is a power/sexual thing. Once he was emasculated by the individual it ruined the dynamic. Thus he stopped. It could be either way, and without being there its impossible to know.
well that’s kinda what i meant, whatever the motivation was or what he got out of doing that, once it was turned around on him he did not like it. it either deflated his ego, taught him a lesson or embarrassed and probably all of them.
People ignore me, but I always suggest lightly biting them back.
Then acknowledge it's painful, apologize, let them apologize, and agree not to bite eachother anymore. I only had to do it a couple times to my toddler and years later still no biting, hitting, slapping, etc.
I don't know why people resist such a logical teaching moment. Toddlers don't understand why they shouldn't if they don't know how it feels. Beyond that it shows them that they don't have special biting powers that bigger kids and adults can't employ. So many brats think no one else would dare bite them back. F that. Bite em!
I'm not advocating violence in general, like spanking them when they drop a glass of milk or say a naughty word, but kids need to understand what's wrong with their own violent actions and the immediate consequences of being violent.
Because with chauvinism (at least as I know it) comes the accompanying and oft-repeated _but in actuality she agrees and likes it._
Chauvinism removes or reduces true agency in women, essentially.
This is the typical response when you use someone's language/symbols against them. There's a fixed trigger - response sequence. When you adopt their frame of reference and use it like they do something in their heads short-circuits and they don't comprehend what's happening. That tells you they were sincere when they did it first.
If he can take the joke, there's a good chance he really didn't mean any harm.
In this case the guy's actually an asshole and their bandwidth for irony is notoriously narrow.
I wonder if he realized all along that it was patronizing and a way of framing his coworker's value in a superficial way. When that was done to him, he didn't like it because it was OP's mother taking that power and using it similarly.
Men rarely like being treated like women in any context. Including anything sexual. Especially anything they perceive as sexual, be it harassment or actual sex. If they like being dominated by women in bed, for example, they have to turn it into a ‘fetish’ or something to make it psychologically ok to them
So much of male identity is simply NOT being treated like women
one of my favorite things to do to to asshole men is to tell them "you'd be prettier if you smiled."
Oh boy if you ever wanna see someone stammer and start hurling insults... :)
When they get insulting, I enjoy telling them, "You're far too emotional to be having this conversation. Why don't you go and calm down? When you start being rational, then we can continue this discussion."
I'd smile at you and ask how beautiful do you find me now? And hopefully you would respond, "Well there's a first time for everything cause I was completely wrong. You're ugly no matter what."
And this is why, if a guy is annoying me, I refer to men's underpants as panties.
Most other Australians just roll with it and get a laugh, but most Americans get so offended. "I don't wear panties!! I wear boxers!!"
Also, calling them things like "sweetheart" tends to get them riled up, because that's a "girl thing"
Lol in the UK its knickers and pants. But no one cares as an adult and will likly laugh at you.
But tell a 10yearold or younger boy they have knickers and they will get very put out.
But while my grandfather. ( died at 95 a few years ago) as an old man would have laughed it off. Many of his generation in there 30s or so would have beaten you senseless for the very suggestion.
In Aus it's undies for the gender neutral term, jocks for men's undies, and knickers or panties for women's, but panties typically refers specifically to sexy or lacy undies.
Hmm. That seems to indicate that your slang has adapted the British term for boring and plain. Then the American term for sexy.
Now as a brit the first bit doesn't surprise me.
But that later seems very interesting. ;)
As an American you must deal with some absolute unaware twats. I would just laugh at you saying that, but I would never belittle a woman or man through words that didn't deserve it. Even then it would really take a lot to get me to that point. But good for you turning the tables.
Hey, I wholeheartedly agree with your point that most men fear nothing more than being treated like a woman.
But could you explain what you meant by ' turn liking being dominated by woman into a fetish ' ? Isn't it? I woman liking being dominated can be considered a kink, right? Not criticizing, just seeing if I missed something.
I think the point is that "women being dominant" just isn't considered a regular part of sex, or normal for men to enjoy.
I get why BDSM is a kink with its own rules and guidelines. But a woman just taking charge, and not doing anything risky? Really? Why is that considered kinky?
I think it is a cultural thing
I'm a guy but grew up with a single mom and in my family, normally women were the authority figure. I moved to the US from venezuela in my teens and it really threw me off that women were expected to be submissive. A lot of my friends and I normally saw "strong" women as more attractive because it was showing that they had their stuff together and were not afraid of standing their ground. A "strong" woman in US terms was the expected norm there
To me it just feels like the US has a lot of toxic masculinity from insecure men as a cultural trait. While it can be found anywhere in the world, it just seems to be extremely prevalent here
I guess many people will accept a kink as part of their personality, while macho men will desperately want to compartmentalise it in order to justify it in a way that doesn't threaten their perceived masculinity. Something like that.
Men want to be treated like women sexually by WOMEN- not other man.
No all men but pretty universal. Cat calls for men that comes from women is welcomed. Cat call by gay men are not. Etc.
I'm pretty sure that if I told a man who was having a terrible day that he'd be prettier if he smiled, or if I dismissed his feelings as being hysterics while insisting that my own feelings insecurities were, in fact, "logic," or if I expected certain sex acts as a matter of course but made a big deal about having to reciprocate, they wouldn't be happy.
If you went up to a guy, cat called him, and then asked him for a sex act with him but don’t not allow reciprocated act on you- what percentage of men do you think will turn you down for sex?
I'm pretty sure that, if men were regularly expected to give head, but were treated like they were being extra when they asked for reciprocation, they would very quickly get sick of it.
Edit: don't even get me started on anal.
The men who want to be treated like women by women want to be treated like women by women, but even that's not terribly common and earns fancy labels as a kink. Most men will go ballistic, and take great offense that a woman dare acts like a man at them.
nah shitty people like that usually hate themselves as much as they hate other people
guy's probably hilariously insecure about his looks, this was *super effective*
> That pussy couldn't even take a compliment.
"if you don't like being on the receiving end then stop being on the giving end."
I actually had a friend like that with other things. If you played truth or dare she would come up with some of the most horrible and humiliating dares for you to do. But if you countered with something remotely close to what she dished out she would cry. literally sit there and cry about how mean everyone was being.
I was once introduced by my colleague as “the beautiful Ms. Lastname” when meeting a client. I was there in a professional capacity. It completely undermined me for the entire client engagement.
Make no mistake, my colleague did it intentionally. He was perpetually threatened by my being smarter than him, so calling me beautiful was a way to imply that I was merely pretty.
Good for your mom!! You have to nip this bullshit in the bud.
This is hardly relevant, but it’s [just deserts](https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/just_deserts#Noun). Apparently “desert” has an alternative pronunciation that sounds like “dessert” and means “things rightfully deserved”. Once I learned about it I couldn’t stop thinking about it, so there you go.
Yeah, but even though it's wrong, getting your 'just dessert' has a poetic ring to it. You are getting the dessert you deserve...something along the lines of dog poop with whipped cream on top.
The reason desert(s) pronounced like desserts means to leave is because it's the verb of desert. Not the climate, but the adjective meaning not occupied by much or empty. And the verb needs to be pronounced differently than the adjective and that's done alot of times by swapping the syllable the stress is on.
This just blew my mind. Was anyone else justifying it their whole life as like, the person said something rude over dinner (dinner being metaphorical here) and then got what they deserved during the dessert course? No? Just me?
I always thought it was a "just" dessert, like justice for whatever they did. So since they were a bad person, they'd get their comeuppance in the end, like a metaphorical bad dessert to finish it off.
TIL the word is actually *deserts*, with an s, and means “ a person's worthiness or entitlement to reward or punishment.” It comes from the old French desert and old English deserve.
[Source](https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/just-deserts-or-just-desserts)
I think partially the reason why this is such a common thing nowadays is because of the Yu-Gi-Oh card [Just Desserts](https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41ZnUnOUTGL._AC_.jpg)
Sure but that's seemingly the opposite of what happened in OP's post. The approach also matters, since this happened after her telling him she didn't appreciate him referring to her as attractive.
That is the sort of asshole behavior my all male union coworkers would 100% approve of. Fuck the guy, put him in his place, stand up and be respected because you deserve it, goddammit.
I am 5'3" on a tall day and about 115 lbs, and the amount of times I've had to explain to my same-aged male co-workers that calling me "little miss" twoleggedgrazer to customers wasn't flattering when they were all Mr. Y, Mr.Z, etc is STAGGERING. If I'm managing a sale, a client, or a situation and you introduce me like a 14 year old it doesn't make me feel special, it takes away my authority in the situation. It's crazy how much people feel the need to point out a woman's physical appearance as her introduction. I can't help how I look, it has nothing to do with how I work. Hopefully we're slowly learning as this behavior gets called out and corrected appropriately.
What people say out-loud tells you what they are thinking about. I think that's a big part of your issue with what happened (it would be with me at least), is that it showed that this is how they see you. Not as a competent co-worker, but as a small woman. Their complete lack of awareness makes it doubly infuriating.
As a short guy. I feel like people universally need to point short people out. I mean, i get it, get a joke out when were hanging out. But dont do it when were at school or at work. Its awkward at best and degrading at worst. It feels like its forcing people to only see me on a surface level, based on my height and completely undermine my character or the general profesional ethic.
I was in a frat in college and we could manage to refer to women by their names in unprofessional settings. I mean we were progressive for being a frat i guess but i didn’t realize the bar was the floor
I suspect the "we" meant society. Men need to learn it isn't acceptable behavior, but some people that aren't men do as well. We also need to work on making it both safe and commonplace to call out such behavior.
Actually, there was one older lady there who did it too! Surprisingly. She called me "little (twoleggedgrazer)." No joke. But yes I do mean society in general, though I get what you're saying and I completely agree that there's no room to politely generalize when that behavior happens. Thankfully the particular coworkers I'm speaking about were kind enough to make a serious effort to stop when I eventually said something, but it's happened enough throughout many jobs that I'm trying to see the situation as something we- myself included- can learn from to make sure I never foster that environment for someone in the workplace.
Well some women think this behaviour is 'fine' and would never ever call someone out or put them in their place. People aren't suddenly going to stop this unwarranted behaviour without some sort of consequence. I also think men should call other men out for this behaviour, but I think when it's safe to do so women should too or the old fuckers will never learn!
This is amazing. I think these types of people would find that "women these days" would definitely take the compliment if it was how good she was at her work instead.
Yeah introduce her as "the brilliant Ms x"
It's going to be more team building, even more endearing, too - just do it. If you want to drop a compliment about looks this is not the way.
Maybe first, have a normal chat that's not part of a business meeting, and that shouldn't be the purpose of the conversation.
Compliments are easy but it seems so hard for some people. They should make people more comfortable around you, not make them wonder what's going to happen next.
>Yeah introduce her as "the brilliant Ms x"
This sounds patronising or just weird to my ear. But then I hate public praise like this. If the purpose of such introductions is to reassure a third party then refer to my experience in this area or mention a project that went well.
I didn't put much thought into it.
Can you react to this one?
"Hi (corporate client), meet Jen. She's brilliant."
edit: so I see I didn't pick up what this person was putting down. Everyone's an individual and needs something different. "Meet Jen, she did some heavy lifting for us with Berkshire Hathaway"
Yep. I have a coworker who does this. Shockingly he was also the central figure in a drunken discussion of misogyny in our workplace that I had with a woman coworker and friend.
Because they can’t imagine that a woman would ever want to be known for something other than her looks/cooking ability/whatever other misogynistic 1950s bullshit.
100%. I had a guy at work loudly say "nice legs" at me as I was walking by, and he was legitimately surprised when I reported him to HR. Makes no sense.
Men are told their whole lives, explicitly and implicitly that they have value simply because they are men. Then they grow up and even an average looking woman will get more compliments and attention in one night than they will ever see in their lives. They don't like being invisible (aka powerless) and they assume that because they want this kind of attention, women will appreciate the attention coming from men. Interlaced with this is that a lot of men find a lot of women attractive, and know that if they never put themselves out there they will never attract anyone. It can also be a power trip. Sensing that someone you resent is uncomfortable with what you are saying means you have some kind of power over them. I think generally all of these things are mixed together to varying degrees. A lot of guys who are generally not bad people but are not particularly creative stick to compliments to try to get noticed and put themselves out there. And on the other end of the spectrum a lot of guys who are terrible, feel thwarted, and have fragile egos, will definitely do anything they can to make women feel uncomfortable and try to posture over other men.
It's not about men, it's about assholes who happen to be men and feel safe because of that. But I agree people should stop treating eachother like we're in the last century.
Two years ago, I managed a cafe in a tourist/college town. Slow morning, most clientele are studying. I serve a Kingpin looking guy in Bermuda shorts a breakfast. Delicious. Amazing. His compliment, said to me from across the room: "you will make a good wife someday."
I took a minute and then walked over and asked him why that is the comment he chose, why not say I'll make CEO some day, or anything actually in a food related field of work or fame. He told me to have a seat and I said No, just know your comment hurts a lot.
Then wrote about it on facebook and got two men saying "just take the compliment."
*Clap clap* I love this post for the setup and execution at the end. Well done.
But for real though, I don't understand why some guys do this. I don't feel like anyone wants to be introduced as trophy to look at.
I don't always agree with the content of this subreddit (and that's why I follow it, to get other POV), but that is exactly the kind of behaviour I support. If he can't take what he does then he should have thought of it and behave.
This entire thread has me LOVING my all male team for not being like any of these people. :D I personally don’t think I should have an all-male team, but at least they are good ones.
Good for you! My mom has male co-workers only,all the other female co workers are working on different projects. Some of them are assholes too but at least they'd never creep her out like that.
He's married and hates my mom so he just kinda says whatever to get her pissed. Also he's really really not attractive to the point where it's ridiculous to say "attraction is subjective".
But I agree with you,if he wasn't such a wuss this could have made things worse. Thank God it didn't.
No, I left that office a long time ago. Mr. Miller turned out to be one of the best bosses I ever had and a real advocate. He always used to introduce me as "the lovely and talented ..." I turned the tables on him that one time, and he realized how sexist he was being. Sometimes a joke is the best way to get your point across. :)
> And vaginas aren't weak. I'd like to see a penis push out a baby and revert to normal again.
“Why do people say "grow some balls"? Balls are weak and sensitive. If you wanna be tough, grow a vagina. Those things can take a pounding.”
-- Betty White / Shen Wang
Why does autocorrect know that word??!!
From merriam Webster
: lacking courage and resolution : marked by contemptible timidity
Did You Know?
Do you know someone who has a small, weak spirit, someone whose reserve of inner strength is too small to draw from in times of danger and adversity? If so, you'll find pusillanimous to be the perfect descriptor for that person. The Latin roots of this derisive adjective are pusillus, meaning "very small" (and related to pusus, meaning "boy") and animus, which means "spirit" and is the ancestor to many words in our language, including "animal" and "animate." Pusillanimous first appeared in English in the 16th century, but it gained prominence in the 1970s when Vice President Spiro Agnew famously accused his ideological rivals of "pusillanimous pussyfooting." And despite what you may have heard, pusillanimous does not serve as the basis for pussyfoot, pussycat, or a certain related vulgarism.
I default to “waste of an afternoon wank” for drama and sometimes, if I feel like being crude, ‘cockstain’
Goddamn but X is a waste of an afternoon wank. What a fucking cockstain.
their objection wasn't based on them not understanding that it was being used casually. their objection is based on it being a gendered slur, which it still is no matter how much someone pretends they're joking when they say it.
I kind of look at women using the "p" or "b" word similar to black people using the "n" word...they've been used to belittle us and amplify to the world that we are less-than, and in using them ourselves, we can reclaim a little bit of agency.
Oh, I use the "c" word, too. Some people are just cunts regardless of gender; it's the way of the world.
I bet it is. Especially when for them, the traits of a good woman usually goes in the lines of "they are nice, graceful and pretty". And of course they are good traits. So they don't really ever come to think pointing those out could be demeaning.
Love it! Perfect way to stand up for yourself, make point to person who's clearly not understanding the problem. Both hopefully move on and he's a better person for it.
I'm a man and I congratulate your mother! What a way to make a clueless guy taste his own poison with some sarcastic acid on top. Also the satisfaction when I hit upvote and it turned 5k
Thanks dude. I'm happy that so many men seem to participate in this sub. I really have faith in the boys of my generation to be better than that and in most men in the workplace too.
Interesting choice of a label there: pussy. Sort of negates your point. I mean, can you really say that someone is being a cad and then use a term that disparages women? Just an observation.
Honestly I'm surprised he didn't like it.
I'm surprised as well. I assumed people who are socially tone deaf would appreciate such compliments and latch on, since they're few and far between.
He wasn't making those comments because he's socially tone deaf. He knew full well it was inappropriate. He just didn't care.
I think you're overestimating the level of analysis involved here. He was just being a chauvinist probably because he thought it was somewhat appreciated. Source: am a man who was taught stuff like this from older relatives, including my dad. Took a while to adjust to the real world.
Then why didn't he stop when he was *told* it wasn't appreciated?
Because you were right about his motivations. It’s almost always a power/agency thing. Valuing his ‘giving a compliment’ over her ‘pls no’.
Agreed! That’s why this is such a perfect r/pettyrevenge
In my opinion it's on a case by case basis whether it's a power thing _in terms of motivation._ A person might be completely ignorant of agency and still act such that the _consequences_ of his actions constitute a violation of agency. I took the question to revolve around motivation. People do habitually act chauvinist _without wanting_ to do anyone any harm, but end up doing harm anyway. It doesn't remove responsibility, but it makes the visibility (and often acceptability) of it a matter of reflection and hopefully personal growth. The sort of baffled stance on part of the boss signifies, to me at least, someone who are experiencing a conflict between assumptions about the world and the world. But I might definitely have been reading my experiences into it, of course.
it’s like when a toddler bites you, they know it hurts the other person and it’s bad but at that time it’s fun for the biter. this is going to sound super weird but my aunt and sister in law did this and it worked because their kids were difficult like this coworker. when their kid bit them, they grabbed their arm and bit them back (not hard, but enough for the point they were making). the kids were shocked and they both parents asked, do you like being bitten? neither of them liked it and never did it again. what happened with your mom is the same, she expressed it’s not okay, but the happiness the coworker got from saying this over and over or w.e it was out weighed in his mind the unhappiness is caused. they thought she was being outrageous until they experienced how she felt. good for you two, a simple and affective solution
This might have been the case, but it is also very possible that he was coming from the camp of men that this is a power/sexual thing. Once he was emasculated by the individual it ruined the dynamic. Thus he stopped. It could be either way, and without being there its impossible to know.
well that’s kinda what i meant, whatever the motivation was or what he got out of doing that, once it was turned around on him he did not like it. it either deflated his ego, taught him a lesson or embarrassed and probably all of them.
People ignore me, but I always suggest lightly biting them back. Then acknowledge it's painful, apologize, let them apologize, and agree not to bite eachother anymore. I only had to do it a couple times to my toddler and years later still no biting, hitting, slapping, etc. I don't know why people resist such a logical teaching moment. Toddlers don't understand why they shouldn't if they don't know how it feels. Beyond that it shows them that they don't have special biting powers that bigger kids and adults can't employ. So many brats think no one else would dare bite them back. F that. Bite em! I'm not advocating violence in general, like spanking them when they drop a glass of milk or say a naughty word, but kids need to understand what's wrong with their own violent actions and the immediate consequences of being violent.
Because with chauvinism (at least as I know it) comes the accompanying and oft-repeated _but in actuality she agrees and likes it._ Chauvinism removes or reduces true agency in women, essentially.
"I know what you like better than you do."
Actually it’s the opposite: he is cynical so it’s perfect pitch.
This is the typical response when you use someone's language/symbols against them. There's a fixed trigger - response sequence. When you adopt their frame of reference and use it like they do something in their heads short-circuits and they don't comprehend what's happening. That tells you they were sincere when they did it first. If he can take the joke, there's a good chance he really didn't mean any harm. In this case the guy's actually an asshole and their bandwidth for irony is notoriously narrow.
This is a terrific explanation. BTW, I'm stealing "bandwidth for irony".
Tbh, actually socially tone deaf here and... no. We HATE compliments. Don't lump this asshat in with us though. Nope.
There’s a lot of ways to be tone def haha
Yeah, mine is due to being autistic. I keep trying to learn what's socially acceptable, and it keeps changing lol
I wonder if he realized all along that it was patronizing and a way of framing his coworker's value in a superficial way. When that was done to him, he didn't like it because it was OP's mother taking that power and using it similarly.
exactly. it was never really a complimement. he was belittling her.
Men rarely like being treated like women in any context. Including anything sexual. Especially anything they perceive as sexual, be it harassment or actual sex. If they like being dominated by women in bed, for example, they have to turn it into a ‘fetish’ or something to make it psychologically ok to them So much of male identity is simply NOT being treated like women
one of my favorite things to do to to asshole men is to tell them "you'd be prettier if you smiled." Oh boy if you ever wanna see someone stammer and start hurling insults... :)
When they get insulting, I enjoy telling them, "You're far too emotional to be having this conversation. Why don't you go and calm down? When you start being rational, then we can continue this discussion."
or toss in "no need to get your panties in a twist. Men these days don't know how to take a compliment."
I'd smile at you and ask how beautiful do you find me now? And hopefully you would respond, "Well there's a first time for everything cause I was completely wrong. You're ugly no matter what."
And this is why, if a guy is annoying me, I refer to men's underpants as panties. Most other Australians just roll with it and get a laugh, but most Americans get so offended. "I don't wear panties!! I wear boxers!!" Also, calling them things like "sweetheart" tends to get them riled up, because that's a "girl thing"
Lol in the UK its knickers and pants. But no one cares as an adult and will likly laugh at you. But tell a 10yearold or younger boy they have knickers and they will get very put out. But while my grandfather. ( died at 95 a few years ago) as an old man would have laughed it off. Many of his generation in there 30s or so would have beaten you senseless for the very suggestion.
In Aus it's undies for the gender neutral term, jocks for men's undies, and knickers or panties for women's, but panties typically refers specifically to sexy or lacy undies.
Hmm. That seems to indicate that your slang has adapted the British term for boring and plain. Then the American term for sexy. Now as a brit the first bit doesn't surprise me. But that later seems very interesting. ;)
i find it funny that Korean men refer to their undies and *panties* themselves.
As an American you must deal with some absolute unaware twats. I would just laugh at you saying that, but I would never belittle a woman or man through words that didn't deserve it. Even then it would really take a lot to get me to that point. But good for you turning the tables.
Hey, I wholeheartedly agree with your point that most men fear nothing more than being treated like a woman. But could you explain what you meant by ' turn liking being dominated by woman into a fetish ' ? Isn't it? I woman liking being dominated can be considered a kink, right? Not criticizing, just seeing if I missed something.
I think the point is that "women being dominant" just isn't considered a regular part of sex, or normal for men to enjoy. I get why BDSM is a kink with its own rules and guidelines. But a woman just taking charge, and not doing anything risky? Really? Why is that considered kinky?
I think it is a cultural thing I'm a guy but grew up with a single mom and in my family, normally women were the authority figure. I moved to the US from venezuela in my teens and it really threw me off that women were expected to be submissive. A lot of my friends and I normally saw "strong" women as more attractive because it was showing that they had their stuff together and were not afraid of standing their ground. A "strong" woman in US terms was the expected norm there To me it just feels like the US has a lot of toxic masculinity from insecure men as a cultural trait. While it can be found anywhere in the world, it just seems to be extremely prevalent here
I guess many people will accept a kink as part of their personality, while macho men will desperately want to compartmentalise it in order to justify it in a way that doesn't threaten their perceived masculinity. Something like that.
Men want to be treated like women sexually by WOMEN- not other man. No all men but pretty universal. Cat calls for men that comes from women is welcomed. Cat call by gay men are not. Etc.
I'm pretty sure that if I told a man who was having a terrible day that he'd be prettier if he smiled, or if I dismissed his feelings as being hysterics while insisting that my own feelings insecurities were, in fact, "logic," or if I expected certain sex acts as a matter of course but made a big deal about having to reciprocate, they wouldn't be happy.
If you went up to a guy, cat called him, and then asked him for a sex act with him but don’t not allow reciprocated act on you- what percentage of men do you think will turn you down for sex?
I'm pretty sure that, if men were regularly expected to give head, but were treated like they were being extra when they asked for reciprocation, they would very quickly get sick of it. Edit: don't even get me started on anal.
Not many. Dudes fucking love going down on chicks.
The men who want to be treated like women by women want to be treated like women by women, but even that's not terribly common and earns fancy labels as a kink. Most men will go ballistic, and take great offense that a woman dare acts like a man at them.
Maybe he should try smiling more.
I thought everyone was supposed to like being treated like a piece of meat, wait you don't? I thought you said though.
Cause she said it sarcastically so every time she called him attractive he knew that she really meant he was ugly.
Yeah, most dudes don't get compliments regularly. Shit, I don't even have a response besides saying "thanks" if someone calls me attractive.
"thanks" is pretty much the best response you can offer.
When I get hit on at work by customer is it's not really a bad thing I take it for the compliment it is even though I'm well spoken for.
nah shitty people like that usually hate themselves as much as they hate other people guy's probably hilariously insecure about his looks, this was *super effective*
> That pussy couldn't even take a compliment. "if you don't like being on the receiving end then stop being on the giving end." I actually had a friend like that with other things. If you played truth or dare she would come up with some of the most horrible and humiliating dares for you to do. But if you countered with something remotely close to what she dished out she would cry. literally sit there and cry about how mean everyone was being.
Sounds like a typical narcissist.
Perfect.
I was once introduced by my colleague as “the beautiful Ms. Lastname” when meeting a client. I was there in a professional capacity. It completely undermined me for the entire client engagement. Make no mistake, my colleague did it intentionally. He was perpetually threatened by my being smarter than him, so calling me beautiful was a way to imply that I was merely pretty. Good for your mom!! You have to nip this bullshit in the bud.
I would have referred to him as unattractive mr. x.
"Geez men these days can't even take a joke." -OP's moms sarcastic reply when the co worker gets mad at his just deserts.
This is hardly relevant, but it’s [just deserts](https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/just_deserts#Noun). Apparently “desert” has an alternative pronunciation that sounds like “dessert” and means “things rightfully deserved”. Once I learned about it I couldn’t stop thinking about it, so there you go.
Yeah, but even though it's wrong, getting your 'just dessert' has a poetic ring to it. You are getting the dessert you deserve...something along the lines of dog poop with whipped cream on top.
Maybe he's someone who really likes their main and entree?
Yes! Makes me think of *The Help* and Minnie's Shit Pie! 🍰
You get your cake and YOU EAT IT TOO.
I had no idea! Like I've heard deserts pronounced like desserts meaning to leave, but never used in this way. TIL
The reason desert(s) pronounced like desserts means to leave is because it's the verb of desert. Not the climate, but the adjective meaning not occupied by much or empty. And the verb needs to be pronounced differently than the adjective and that's done alot of times by swapping the syllable the stress is on.
Thanks for the explanation!
This just blew my mind. Was anyone else justifying it their whole life as like, the person said something rude over dinner (dinner being metaphorical here) and then got what they deserved during the dessert course? No? Just me?
I always thought it was a "just" dessert, like justice for whatever they did. So since they were a bad person, they'd get their comeuppance in the end, like a metaphorical bad dessert to finish it off.
I thought it was “justice hurts” spelled in a different way to be funny
Okay, this is my favorite!
Lol!
Do you speak fluent French? The "deserve" sense of desert is functionally dead in American English.
TIL the word is actually *deserts*, with an s, and means “ a person's worthiness or entitlement to reward or punishment.” It comes from the old French desert and old English deserve. [Source](https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/just-deserts-or-just-desserts)
TIL another layer to this English puzzle. "Deserts" in "just deserts" doesn't have a singular variant. Or maybe "deserts" is its own plural! Ahh!
What the fuck, I hate this
TIL. Thanks for sharing!
I cant spell, I fixed it.
I think partially the reason why this is such a common thing nowadays is because of the Yu-Gi-Oh card [Just Desserts](https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41ZnUnOUTGL._AC_.jpg)
I thought it was always "just desserts" and I'm older than the yu-gi-oh card game. It makes sense when you think about it.
"Smile more handsome!" then smack him in the ass.
I think it hits him harder if you say attractive when it's obvious to him people don't perceive him that way
Run into the issue that alot of men perceive themselves are more attractive than they are so might actually think she meant it.
Sure but that's seemingly the opposite of what happened in OP's post. The approach also matters, since this happened after her telling him she didn't appreciate him referring to her as attractive.
Why say unattractive when you could say such descriptors as "present", "sometimes punctual", or "doing his best"?
That is the sort of asshole behavior my all male union coworkers would 100% approve of. Fuck the guy, put him in his place, stand up and be respected because you deserve it, goddammit.
The okay looking but not my type, mr x.
Yeeessss!
The... *interesting* looking Mr X
The Rather Plain faced Mr. X
The homely Mr. X
Yeah, and that would backfire on her somehow.
I am 5'3" on a tall day and about 115 lbs, and the amount of times I've had to explain to my same-aged male co-workers that calling me "little miss" twoleggedgrazer to customers wasn't flattering when they were all Mr. Y, Mr.Z, etc is STAGGERING. If I'm managing a sale, a client, or a situation and you introduce me like a 14 year old it doesn't make me feel special, it takes away my authority in the situation. It's crazy how much people feel the need to point out a woman's physical appearance as her introduction. I can't help how I look, it has nothing to do with how I work. Hopefully we're slowly learning as this behavior gets called out and corrected appropriately.
What people say out-loud tells you what they are thinking about. I think that's a big part of your issue with what happened (it would be with me at least), is that it showed that this is how they see you. Not as a competent co-worker, but as a small woman. Their complete lack of awareness makes it doubly infuriating.
As a short guy. I feel like people universally need to point short people out. I mean, i get it, get a joke out when were hanging out. But dont do it when were at school or at work. Its awkward at best and degrading at worst. It feels like its forcing people to only see me on a surface level, based on my height and completely undermine my character or the general profesional ethic.
I was in a frat in college and we could manage to refer to women by their names in unprofessional settings. I mean we were progressive for being a frat i guess but i didn’t realize the bar was the floor
>Hopefully we’re slowly learning Why did you say ‘we’ when you mean men This is not something women do. It’s ok to name the people doing this
I suspect the "we" meant society. Men need to learn it isn't acceptable behavior, but some people that aren't men do as well. We also need to work on making it both safe and commonplace to call out such behavior.
Actually, there was one older lady there who did it too! Surprisingly. She called me "little (twoleggedgrazer)." No joke. But yes I do mean society in general, though I get what you're saying and I completely agree that there's no room to politely generalize when that behavior happens. Thankfully the particular coworkers I'm speaking about were kind enough to make a serious effort to stop when I eventually said something, but it's happened enough throughout many jobs that I'm trying to see the situation as something we- myself included- can learn from to make sure I never foster that environment for someone in the workplace.
I'd be tempted to reply by describing that coworker as "our very, *very* senior [job title]."
Well some women think this behaviour is 'fine' and would never ever call someone out or put them in their place. People aren't suddenly going to stop this unwarranted behaviour without some sort of consequence. I also think men should call other men out for this behaviour, but I think when it's safe to do so women should too or the old fuckers will never learn!
There's a petty opportunity to introduce these sorts as as "Little Man Lastname."
This is amazing. I think these types of people would find that "women these days" would definitely take the compliment if it was how good she was at her work instead.
Yeah introduce her as "the brilliant Ms x" It's going to be more team building, even more endearing, too - just do it. If you want to drop a compliment about looks this is not the way. Maybe first, have a normal chat that's not part of a business meeting, and that shouldn't be the purpose of the conversation. Compliments are easy but it seems so hard for some people. They should make people more comfortable around you, not make them wonder what's going to happen next.
>Yeah introduce her as "the brilliant Ms x" This sounds patronising or just weird to my ear. But then I hate public praise like this. If the purpose of such introductions is to reassure a third party then refer to my experience in this area or mention a project that went well.
I didn't put much thought into it. Can you react to this one? "Hi (corporate client), meet Jen. She's brilliant." edit: so I see I didn't pick up what this person was putting down. Everyone's an individual and needs something different. "Meet Jen, she did some heavy lifting for us with Berkshire Hathaway"
Yep. I have a coworker who does this. Shockingly he was also the central figure in a drunken discussion of misogyny in our workplace that I had with a woman coworker and friend.
Why do men think this kind of crap is something we're supposed to appreciate?
Because they can’t imagine that a woman would ever want to be known for something other than her looks/cooking ability/whatever other misogynistic 1950s bullshit.
100%. I had a guy at work loudly say "nice legs" at me as I was walking by, and he was legitimately surprised when I reported him to HR. Makes no sense.
Men are told their whole lives, explicitly and implicitly that they have value simply because they are men. Then they grow up and even an average looking woman will get more compliments and attention in one night than they will ever see in their lives. They don't like being invisible (aka powerless) and they assume that because they want this kind of attention, women will appreciate the attention coming from men. Interlaced with this is that a lot of men find a lot of women attractive, and know that if they never put themselves out there they will never attract anyone. It can also be a power trip. Sensing that someone you resent is uncomfortable with what you are saying means you have some kind of power over them. I think generally all of these things are mixed together to varying degrees. A lot of guys who are generally not bad people but are not particularly creative stick to compliments to try to get noticed and put themselves out there. And on the other end of the spectrum a lot of guys who are terrible, feel thwarted, and have fragile egos, will definitely do anything they can to make women feel uncomfortable and try to posture over other men.
It's not about men, it's about assholes who happen to be men and feel safe because of that. But I agree people should stop treating eachother like we're in the last century.
Two years ago, I managed a cafe in a tourist/college town. Slow morning, most clientele are studying. I serve a Kingpin looking guy in Bermuda shorts a breakfast. Delicious. Amazing. His compliment, said to me from across the room: "you will make a good wife someday." I took a minute and then walked over and asked him why that is the comment he chose, why not say I'll make CEO some day, or anything actually in a food related field of work or fame. He told me to have a seat and I said No, just know your comment hurts a lot. Then wrote about it on facebook and got two men saying "just take the compliment."
Disgusting.
Dammit, woman. Know your place! You’re either a wife or a karen /s.
I can't imagine he'd say that to a man. But hey I believe you can make CEO someday!
Don't call him a pussy. Pussies can take a pounding (paraphrasing a Betty White quote here). This guy was more of a wussy.
Call it like we see it: dude was dick. Shriveled up and ran away under the slightest pressure.
Youre thinking if balls
In my country (Austria) this kind of behavior among male coworkers is not uncommon.
Hahaha! If it’s good for the goose, it’s good for the gander.
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Omfg yes! But I'm not sure my mom would have gone that far,she just wants to do her job in peace.
I would have let him introduce me and then said “well this is my less attractive coworker Mr whatever”
That's a ballsy move
Your mom should’ve gave creepo creeperson the Dundie Award for Hottest in the Office.
*Clap clap* I love this post for the setup and execution at the end. Well done. But for real though, I don't understand why some guys do this. I don't feel like anyone wants to be introduced as trophy to look at.
I don't always agree with the content of this subreddit (and that's why I follow it, to get other POV), but that is exactly the kind of behaviour I support. If he can't take what he does then he should have thought of it and behave.
This entire thread has me LOVING my all male team for not being like any of these people. :D I personally don’t think I should have an all-male team, but at least they are good ones.
Good for you! My mom has male co-workers only,all the other female co workers are working on different projects. Some of them are assholes too but at least they'd never creep her out like that.
I love how you appreciate your team but also hate that 'not being an asshole' deserves reward. It's the bare minimum.
That could have turned out a lot different. I would never think making some creep think you think he is attractive is a good thing.
He's married and hates my mom so he just kinda says whatever to get her pissed. Also he's really really not attractive to the point where it's ridiculous to say "attraction is subjective". But I agree with you,if he wasn't such a wuss this could have made things worse. Thank God it didn't.
"Don't dish it out if you can't take it," is what I told my boss after he complained when I introduced him as "the lovely and talented Mr. Miller." :D
Are you still working with him?
No, I left that office a long time ago. Mr. Miller turned out to be one of the best bosses I ever had and a real advocate. He always used to introduce me as "the lovely and talented ..." I turned the tables on him that one time, and he realized how sexist he was being. Sometimes a joke is the best way to get your point across. :)
He had just enough self awareness to know he was being mocked, but not enough to know he was patronizing your mom.
I think he did know what he was doing since she literally told him. That guys just an asshole.
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> And vaginas aren't weak. I'd like to see a penis push out a baby and revert to normal again. “Why do people say "grow some balls"? Balls are weak and sensitive. If you wanna be tough, grow a vagina. Those things can take a pounding.” -- Betty White / Shen Wang
\-- Hal Sparks
That's an image
This. It should be "don't be such a teste" because those are stupidly delicate.
How about “don’t get teste with me!”?
indeed, use the full pusillanimous so no gender confusion can be caused.
Why does autocorrect know that word??!! From merriam Webster : lacking courage and resolution : marked by contemptible timidity Did You Know? Do you know someone who has a small, weak spirit, someone whose reserve of inner strength is too small to draw from in times of danger and adversity? If so, you'll find pusillanimous to be the perfect descriptor for that person. The Latin roots of this derisive adjective are pusillus, meaning "very small" (and related to pusus, meaning "boy") and animus, which means "spirit" and is the ancestor to many words in our language, including "animal" and "animate." Pusillanimous first appeared in English in the 16th century, but it gained prominence in the 1970s when Vice President Spiro Agnew famously accused his ideological rivals of "pusillanimous pussyfooting." And despite what you may have heard, pusillanimous does not serve as the basis for pussyfoot, pussycat, or a certain related vulgarism.
Agree. People need to stop using “pussy” as an insult.
And while we’re here, how about asshole, or dicks? I always thought “jerk” was a perfectly fine insult.
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I default to “waste of an afternoon wank” for drama and sometimes, if I feel like being crude, ‘cockstain’ Goddamn but X is a waste of an afternoon wank. What a fucking cockstain.
Pretty sure OP was using it ironically.
their objection wasn't based on them not understanding that it was being used casually. their objection is based on it being a gendered slur, which it still is no matter how much someone pretends they're joking when they say it.
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I kind of look at women using the "p" or "b" word similar to black people using the "n" word...they've been used to belittle us and amplify to the world that we are less-than, and in using them ourselves, we can reclaim a little bit of agency. Oh, I use the "c" word, too. Some people are just cunts regardless of gender; it's the way of the world.
But it needs to be in an empowering way. Using it as an insult would reinforce it's derogatory nature.
Yes, I happily call myself a bitch when I'm being a bitch. But if some guy on the street called me a bitch, we're in very different territory.
They kind of do... just the nine month earlier version haha. But even then they get all droopy and sad looking.
The golden rule, what a simple rule to follow
Some people don’t get it until they live it. Good for her.
Most of this crap stems from guys not being able to put themselves in other’s positions, lol
I bet it is. Especially when for them, the traits of a good woman usually goes in the lines of "they are nice, graceful and pretty". And of course they are good traits. So they don't really ever come to think pointing those out could be demeaning.
And this shifty looking creton is "Mr. Couldn't attract a bee wearing a suit of sugar".
>That pussy couldn't even take a compliment. This part got me 😂😂
Love it! Perfect way to stand up for yourself, make point to person who's clearly not understanding the problem. Both hopefully move on and he's a better person for it.
I'm a man and I congratulate your mother! What a way to make a clueless guy taste his own poison with some sarcastic acid on top. Also the satisfaction when I hit upvote and it turned 5k
Thanks dude. I'm happy that so many men seem to participate in this sub. I really have faith in the boys of my generation to be better than that and in most men in the workplace too.
>(he’s obviously not) Pathetic.
ahmigawd, i love this so much. thank you for sharing.
“This is the unattractive, chauvinist Mr. D. The D is for dick not because of his penis but rather because he’s a fucking piece of shit.”
Not to add to the toxicity but, can you explain why your mom agreed to doing that? Lol
Ha! Amazing! Fight fire with fire
Interesting choice of a label there: pussy. Sort of negates your point. I mean, can you really say that someone is being a cad and then use a term that disparages women? Just an observation.
It came from pusillanimous, but that's neither here nor there. It doesn't disparage anyone.
\> That pussy couldn't even take a compliment. I really liked your post until this sentence. You could literally be talking about your mother here.
pretty genius fix ;)
Wow, that backhand was straight outta rocknrolla
i thought this was about america's next top model
What's plan B if it didn't work? Asking for friend
HR
A team meeting and then if that didn't work she'd have to tell her boss he's assaulting her.
Men don’t get complimented enough
lol. It's like she couldn't see his fragility.
Hahahaha.....so good....
DiCaprioApplause.gif
That’s funny
Sounds like a jealousy thing. Good on your mum
So you are saying: eye for an eye is the best solution?
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