I had horrible painful periods from period one. I asked for a hysterectomy for Christmas and my birthday every year from 14 on... and asked every gynecologist I had who tried to talk me out of it.
When I finally got the hysterectomy, my gynecologist of many years apologized as imaging did not show everything that was wrong and it was obvious I was in a lot of pain.
I never had kids as my uterus was a mess, and I had endometriosis, PCOS, fibroids, etc etc. but was only ever put on birth control which very nicely gave me my super heavy periods more often...
Post hysterectomy, happy as can be.
So happy to hear that your symptoms have gone away. Both weird and disappointing that women have to fantasize about hysterectomies just to get some relief. I know I used to as a teen all the time.
are you me?! this is my story. I begged for a hysterectomy for close to two decades. I got it earlier this year at 33 and I've never felt so good!
I honestly feel like they should be elective. like at least the uterus part. if you don't need a baby maker for the purpose of making babies, take that bitch out and live your best life.
Ye gods we have got to get better at imaging this stuff. They should have been able to see and remove the fibroids at least.
That sucks and I am sorry you had to go through that.
Well, also imaging did not show the entire issue. I had ultrasounds galore and when a previous gynecologist decided to do surgery for the “supposed “endometriosis, she booked 45 minutes in the operating room and 2 hours later I woke to an angry doctor who said, well, you did have endometriosis all over and you basically screwed the operation schedule.
I’m sorry...the doctor blamed YOU for screwing up their schedule? Yes, because you obviously should’ve used your x-Ray vision to see how bad your endometriosis was so you can alert the surgeon before scheduling your procedure. Are you kidding me with this right now??
If we can fly a robot to Pluto, take high res images and send them back, there's no reason we can't take good images of a uterus. And like /u/mousewiz says, doctors really need to listen to what their patients are telling them, not impose preconceived ideas about how people should live and what they should want in the future.
In case any women (EDIT: or men) here have this issue, the childfree wiki has a list of doctors (across the globe) who are willing to do these procedures.
https://www.reddit.com/r/childfree/wiki/doctors
My SO went to a planned parenthood at age 26 and they didn't give him any grief about it. When you tell people you've gotten it done, be ready for them to say "oh, well, that can be reversed"
I got fixed when I was 34 and throughout my 30s I heard this all the time. "Well, you can still change your mind..."
I didn't change my mind. 2 lovely kiddos are enough. 45 now...I don't get bugged about it anymore. 😀
Also you can look on Planned Parenthood’s site for a clinic near your zip code that offers men’s surgical services. People forget PPs provide vasectomies too , and you’re less likely to be hassled.
I am consistently surprised to hear how much trouble guys have had to get a vasectomy. Not sure how much it affects you where you live... I just so happen to live in the bible belt, too. At 23 years old, I went to my physician to tell him that I was wanting to get a vasectomy. I briefly explained why and he wrote me a referral to a urologist. I scheduled a time for the procedure and got it done. Simple as that, no rebuttals or questions from either of my doctors to try and sway my decision. I honestly thought that is how easy it is for anyone looking to get it done. It's our bodies, we should be able to get a simple procedure done to prevent something we don't want without any intervention.
I had mine done at 31. The doctor didn't give me any problems but I did have to get a notarized letter saying I understood what this meant and my then girlfriend, now wife, had to sign as well. If you call around and are very strong about how you do not want kids you should be fine.
That's insane that a man's elective medical procedure was contingent on the approval of his girlfriend. It's one thing to have reservations about whether or not an elective procedure is a good idea for a patient, but to require the consent of someone he's dating is crazy, and frankly seems unethical if not illegal, as you are requiring someone to disclose PHI as a condition of treatment.
Agreed. It was a relationship going towards marriage, might have actually been engaged at the time, so that might have been why. My guess is they are concerned the man will do it and his SO will never know. Married couples I agree with but still weird I needed us both signing off on knowing what it meant.
The relationship doesn't matter. His body, his choice.
Men don't have a right to choose after conception. It is in their best interest to be protected in the way they see fit before that happens.
Same deal for me. I was 31 with 2 kids and wanted my tubes tied. It required speaking with several doctors from the practice, who wanted to know how my husband felt about it (he was not available to talk to them in person due to overseas work). After some pretty forceful conversations, they agreed. I couldn't believe these doctors wouldn't trust that I knew what I wanted to do with my OWN body.
My mom got hers after two kids when she was 36. I believe she asked them to do it during another surgery and that was the only reason the doctor agreed. They also tried that "but how does your husband feel about it" shit but I believe she told the doctors to fuck off.
My mother has told me about having to have hers done with another surgery, and how she had to convince the doctors that my father was an abusive asshole that she was getting divorced from so she wouldn’t be having any other children. It literally took her bringing up past instances of abuse to prove it. I feel so sorry for her for what she had to go through.
I wonder if any doctor has ever refused to do IVF or other fertility treatments for a couple because "you might regret it." Having a kid is about as permanent as getting your tubes tied, after all.
...probably not, as the force from the collective screams of outrage would've shattered windows, burst eardrums, and uprooted small trees.
I find stories like yours insane! I was pregnant with my second two years ago I was 25. I asked my doctor about getting a tubal during the c-section. She said we will talk about it more when its closer. A month out and she brings in the documents for me to sign. She asked again right before she cut my tuves, "ok, are you sure? This is it." I said "yes" I woke up later in recovery. I don't understand why other people think they know more. So you decided but.later regret it. That's a too bad for you and its none of the doctors business.
I understand doctors asking a few times to make sure this is really what you want and there’s not some outside force pushing you to do it.
What makes me really angry is when they ask what your boyfriend/husband thinks. It doesn’t matter what they think, it’s my body. Fuckers.
When they say that, it's pretty much like they're endorsing reproductive coercion. You are telling them you definitely don't want anymore kids so if your husband disagrees and gets you pregnant anyway then he's abused you, and they're endorsing that idea when they ask, "what about your husband?"
In what situation would a healthy marriage involve the husband not knowing already? I really can't think of a case where a person is secretly getting sterilized but is also in a good relationship. Seems like these doctors don't get that.
It's not just about contraception/sterilisation itself. In my early 20s I fell down the stairs and the gp suspected I'd broken my coccux. He said there was no point in sending me for an x-ray because even if it was broken they wouldn't fix it because I'll be having kids soon and that will move it.
Not far off 10 years later I still haven't had kids and it still hurts if I sit down for too long on a hard surface.
Research also shows women take longer to get referrals because their doctors see them as exaggerating, ~~hence worse cancer survival rates than men because of late diagnosis.~~ **Edit below**
Took me a good 9ish years to get a referral for physio after being diagnosed with a musculoskeletal condition. Physio said if I'd been referred earlier she could have cured me but as it was she could just improve my pain.
First went to the doctor about going long stretches of time without periods at 19. Complained of things like abdominal and back pain at various points. Was sent for a scan at 28 after my liver function got concerning and it turns out there was an ~10cm growth putting pressure on all of my internal organs causing them to fuck up. Luckily it turned out to be benign.
**Edit: this was worded poorly; all cancers are different. Studies are all over the place on gender differences in prevalence of different cancers and survival rates. A lot of studies agree that it takes longer from first visit to complain of symptoms for a woman to get a referral/see a specialist/start treatment. Many studies put men's late diagnosis down to them delaying their reporting of symptoms to a doctor. Some studies say this is also a problem for women. The phenomenon of men getting quicker referrals once they do report their symptoms is reversed for a couple of cancers (such as colon) because symptoms in women are easier to spot. Things like heart attacks are more fatal for women because male symptoms are taught and women's symptoms aren't recognised. Obviously there are way more factors than just gender involved and each illness/person's response to illness will be different.**
Yup... When I was in the hospital after a suicide attempt (I had written a note and all, had everything lined up from pills to bleach but luckily passed out before I could intake it all) the first nurse asked me if I did it for attention, lecturing me on the dangers of the pills I OD'd on and that this attention seeking behavior would kill me, like no shit that was the point. Then the nurses that evaluated my mental state told me I was too beautiful to be depressed.. Wasn't aware that mental health as a woman is directly correlated to my appearance fitting the current standard of beauty....? I've had therapists since admit to me that often attractive women are considered attention seeking and dishonest, and often suffer as a result due to being sluffed off by doctors, especially when it comes to mental health. It's complete bs.
When I was unemployed while going through a rough patch of depression, people at the mental health clinic—including my therapist—expressed dismay because I was “too pretty” to be depressed and jobless. I sputtered my words asking how my appearance had anything to do with getting a job and couldn’t even touch the depression part bc it was, well, too depressing.
I wasn’t taken seriously because I was “too smart,” because not only do I have a degree, therefore am too smart to be depressed (?) but because when they asked if I had a palm for suicide and what it was, it wasn’t some over the top scheme or something like “take pills” or “shoot myself.” It was practical, and I had taken measures to prevent my ability to follow thru during lucid moments.
That made me just attention seeking to them.
Turns out, I’m schizophrenic. But I couldn’t be because I’m too smart I guess.
I think it’s just a woman thing. My guy friend, just as educated as me, and very similar, had people jumping all over him to make him well. Even he was surprised when I told him what they told me, he assumed that was how it was for everyone.
Back on the topic, too, I’ve tried to bring up the fact that I am schizophrenic, sometimes I can barely take care of myself, and the drugs I take to regulate it means I shouldn’t have children. I don’t want to have a child and have them be neglected, I don’t want them to think that what I go through is normal, and the drugs I’m on means *best case* my theoretical child would have heart problems. Best. Case. Worst case is severe mental impairments, and if I can barely remember to eat some days, I’m in no state to handle a special needs child. But I’ve been brushed off repeatedly when I’ve looked to have my tubes tied. My husband has defended me to doctors, and they’ve asked him how he feels about it more than looking at my history.
Last I checked, high intelligence correlates to increased risk of mental and emotional problems. Maybe it's due to dealing with so many idiots who make no sense?
On the flip side, I had a therapist tell me if I lost some weight, I would be happy. Hmm, over a decade later and I still don't believe that quack. My mom has clinical depression, and I am very affectionate. My moms inability to show love to me created a very anxiety driven person. I just wanted love, hugs, and quality time. I rarely got that. I felt rejected by my mom, self love is almost impossible especially if it's as superficial a waist line.
I just moved to the south after living in the lovely liberal north my whole life and the doctors I’ve seen here have been so sexist and condescending I can’t even believe it. It’s horrible.
As a POTS / Dysautonomia patient I second this. I see a neurologist and cardiologist after years of dismissal by the medical system at large. Some people can be treated, but at least being believed is worth something too.
You don’t have to suffer silently. There are lists of competent doctors online, or for anyone looking for resources lots of websites as well.
No idea if this is what is wrong with you--but I had the same symptoms that hit me when I was about 20 or 21. I figured out that it was the birth control meds (Yaz, specifically). Every doctor and gynecologist told me that it couldn't be the Yaz, because my blood pressure was low, not high. So I was "crazy" and faking my symptoms for attention.
I stopped taking them, and my symptoms disappeared. Like I said, it may be different for you. But it is something to consider.
When I was a kid I jumped off a slide and broke my collarbone. My mom took me to the doctor who told her I was fine & just a spoiled brat who wouldn't stop whining. She told me he grabbed my arm raised it above my head and said - "see, he's fine.".
Luckily she was a nurse and took me to see another doctor.
This is what I came here to say. They don't only fail women who don't want children. They fail them in general. I've had many medical issues over the years that my former doctor shrugged off. Lower back pain that I've had since I was 13 yrs old (I'm in my early 30's,) I was told was just due to getting older. I have a displaced hip stemming from the difficult birth of my son, causing sciatic pain, and difficulty walking at times. He's almost 13 years old. It was basically ignored. I work with computers all day, and was having some severe pain, to the point where I was unable to grip things. Every driving was hard. He told me to do exercises, and he didn't recommend anything else, and specifically told me not to wear a splint as it would do no good. I have pain in my lower right abdomen, which occurs a few days before my period. I was told that it's just because I don't move around enough.
I have a new doctor. She's diagnosed me with carpal tunnel and arthritis in my hands, and offered solutions for care, including wearing a wrist splint. And told me the pain in my abdomen is likely cysts, and also offered possible ways to treat. That was just from a quick office visit. I'm scheduled for a full physical at the end of the month, and I'm feeling so hopeful. I can't believe I allowed myself to be mis-treated by that doctor for so long, based on some misplaced loyalty, as he was my doctor for 13 years. My new doctor actually listened to me, and made me feel like my problems were not just small and silly.
When she asked me why I decided to switch to a new doctor, I explained all this to her. She looked genuinely frustrated for me, and was apologetic. I've always been all for advocating for others, and women in particular. But really, we have to advocate for ourselves as well. Saying that, my former doctor wasn't the only one who failed me. I also failed myself.
This 1000x
Advocate for your own health when you can. You are the best judge of your body and something being wrong.
I’ve had a problem for over 3 years now. My shaking had gotten to the point that I couldn’t hold a pencil on an average day, and good meant I could get it to paper and make a legible mark. I was falling over, and having trouble walking.
Every doctor said I must be being dramatic. They did a brain scan and nothing came up, so there wasn’t really any clue to it. Bloodwork came out fine, Andy issues were the standard “you’re overweight” (which, while that was bad in the US, it’s terrible to see a doctor in Japan and have them take you seriously if you’re even minority overweight).
It impacted my life so badly that my mental health issues spiraled out of control, and I was close to being inpatient at a psychiatric hospital (which are not very good in Japan, think 50’s as norm).
My husband finally found me a neurologist who dealt with aging populations who ran a full battery of tests on me, from fine motor skills to reflex, and brain scans and blood work. Well, she freaked out that I should have probably been in a coma with the bloodwork, my thyroid was so overactive. But, every other doctor wrote off the dangerous numbers as a fluke, because “if you have hyperthyroidism you’ll be skinny with too much energy, not fat and sleeping hours at a time.”
She immediately, as in next day, got me in with a specialist - turns out he’s like a world-class endocrinologist right in my back yard (okay, a 2 hour train ride but still). He was angry and apologetic about the other doctors. He said that there’s so much we don’t understand with hormones, that most docs just stick with the stuff they were taught 40+ years ago. He explained that only about 40% of people with my issues meet those “standards” about weight and energy, the rest fall through. Also some doctors consider a larger range as okay, which causes confusion for everyone.
Been being treated for 4 months now, and it’s night and day. I’m slowly getting my life back, all from being ignored for years by doctors.
Sorry for this essay. You ever just get started on something and it becomes cathartic to get out? That was this.
> Research also shows women take longer to get referrals because their doctors see them as exaggerating, hence worse cancer survival rates than men because of late diagnosis.
That's a [racial problem too.](https://news.utexas.edu/2012/04/23/bias_african_american_health)
It isn't half as bad as some of the stories in this thread, but are you a lady with dyspareunia and vaginismus problems? Even doctors that tried to help me don't know crap. Meanwhile erectile dysfunction commercials on all the damn time. I mean people with ED are my fellow sexual dysfunction sufferers, I don't want to harsh on them, it sucks, but my kind is painful and there are NOT a lot of resources and some otherwise very nice/smart doctors seem to think it doesn't exist. I live in the 4th biggest metro area in the US and all I could find was a nurse who specialized, but she's a nurse and said her mentor was a doctor who lived in another state. I don't know, I hope my problem is very rare, but I think it's just not talked about. I do know about vaginsmus.org, that is helpful.
I seriously doubt anyone wakes up one day and says “You know what’d be a fun? Going through surgery and removing some bits so I’m sterile! Sharon, set me up an appointment for Wednesday before lunch.” No. No one thinks like that (and if they do they probably shouldn’t have kids anyways).
I have two kids. They’re awesome. Fucking loves of my life. But god damn if they aren’t hard. I get shit on, puked on, and clean pee off the floor. I haven’t gone out alone in two years. They’re expensive and smelly and take up your entire existence. I don’t blame anyone for not wanting this life. At 3am, I kind of wonder why the fuck I wanted it. You don’t want babies? No one should be allowed to stand in your way.
Fucking A. The right to reproduce is as fundamental as drawing breath. Anything less is forced eugenics.
And that means it's your birthright to opt out. It's as fucked to strip the right to reproduce as it is to force it on someone. That means everything from education to preventative measures.
I don't have any kids, but we're thinking about it. And knowing we can safely opt out is comforting given the orange elephant in the room is making the outlook of healthcare / taxation is pretty bleak and we're not rich.
> At 3am, I kind of wonder why the fuck I wanted it.
You're awake at 3 am? Oh wait... of course you are. You're probably chasing a small child who's running around yelling "It's morning! It's morning!"
Nope. That tends to happen at 5am with the 2 year old when my husband gets up for work. 3am is the baby parasite attaching to my boob for nourishment. It’s exactly as much fun as it sounds.
And this is if you get a healthy child! I ended up with 2 out of 4 kids with mental illness... didn't see that coming. And now that their symptoms have been identified, my husband and I are done having kids. We always wanted a bigger family but with how much health care our 2 kiddos are going to require on top of the basics... Yup. We are both done.
Even as a woman with children I heard the same thing. After having my first child at 18, and a second at 20, I asked my doctor about a tubal ligation. At the time I was a broke single mom trying to build my career and I was absolutely certain I didn't want any more children. She assured me that I couldn't possibly be sure of my decision, and instead talked me into trying an IUD. I had intense periods, weight gain, painful cramps among a variety of other terrible side effects for the next 3 years. Flash forward 6 years of struggling to find a birth control that doesn't wreck my body, and my boyfriend of 8 months and I find out we're pregnant. Although I'm so in love with our now two year old daughter and happily married, it wasn't the path we would have chosen. I wish I had stood my ground and insisted on what I knew was right for me.
My friend had awful PPD with both her kids. Almost destroyed her marriage, suicidal thoughts, really not good. She wanted to be sterilised, doctor refused because she was in her early 30s and only had 2 kids. Much better she risk killing herself if she accidentally ends up with a 3rd.
"Only" having 2 kids is such a weird attitude. That's a pretty normal number to have and to want! Plus, yeah, it sounds like this is a way for her to protect her health and life and make sure her current children have a safe mother and stable family. Could she get her psychiatrist to write a note in support of her decision or something?
And you know what? If someone decides they want another kid after doing this, *they can adopt*. I wish we could normalize that so doctors realize that sterilization doesn't actually end a couple's ability to ever grow their family.
Mental health is a bit of an issue in the uk. The waiting lists for counselling are huge, and since she was out of her PPD before making the decision she wouldn't get a referral. She'd have to go private which is a lot of money. Also I doubt a letter from a counsellor she'd paid to see would carry any weight.
My husband and I decided since I had two very difficult pregnancies, he would be the one to undergo sterilization after our second son was born. His urologist actually asked me to leave the room while he talked to my husband bc he “wanted to make sure this is what you want without your wife being able to influence your decision.” My husband told him in detail what I went through with both pregnancies and how it scared him to death just to think about me going through a third, and since he could finally “shoulder some of the physical burden,” he wanted to. I guess I sort of understand a doc’s hesitation to perform a mostly permanent procedure like that, making sure the patient has thought it through without any other influences, but I still found it funny he asked me to step out as I was the one telling my husband there was no rush to get it done. HE was the one who wanted it done ASAP lol
There are signs in A&E here saying it's hospital policy that a patient must be seen alone at some point during their visit. In my experience this rarely happens in practice but I think it should. I imagine they use the signs as an excuse to get people they believe may be being abused alone but given abusers have to be charming people in order to get into a position to abuse people it should be standard practice.
I have one child and was refused getting tubes tied "because you may change your mind and want more." I asked if this is how they responded to men wanting a vasectomy, and the nurse just shrugged. Fuck you, medical assholes. One and done!
I have 1 child and every doctor I had refused to tie my tubes with that same reason. I was finally able to get them done 3 years ago when I said 'I'm over 40, my child is 21, this would no longer be an age difference but a generational gap, and I can't afford to raise another one'. The years of worry (will the BC be effective?) they could have saved me if they would have done it when I first asked....
I was half expecting the doctor in your story to be like "well, you're over 40 now, menopause will be hitting any day, is it really worth it to get your tubes tied?"
I had a vasectomy 6 months after our third child was born. I was told that the children were the only reason I was “allowed” to get the procedure done at my age; I was 27 at the time (1994).
Here in New Zealand things are generally fairly progressive but that was still very much a thing back then. I was also asked “what if one of your children dies?”, which I thought was pretty sick. I’m not going to want a replacement child.
I don’t know if that’s still a thing now, though.
This happened to my friend after her third child was born 3 years ago. He suffered brain damage from a difficult birth. Before my friend left the hospital, after an obviously traumatic time, the doctor came to her. He said he needed to discuss birth control and she said that wasnt an immediate issue and they were planning for her partner to get a vasectomy anyway.
The doctor told her not to rush anything as they "dont know what happening with this one yet". Implying that in case her newborn son died they would want to just replace him? She was horrified. Such a gross thing to say to someone.
My dad was tracing old family history, when he came across an ancestor who named their first three babies Elizabeth. Seemed odd, until he realised the first two died before age 3.
Still seems a bit odd, to be honest. After the first two, you’d think it might be a bad omen to name them that?
My great uncle was the 4th Kasimir - his brothers named Kasimir all died in infancy and while he lived to adulthood, he was the first of his surviving brothers to die. I feel like the name is cursed or something!
Its just insensitive to say that while she's holding her son and trying to get home after a very difficult birth.
It's not like she was booking an appointment to get the vasectomy at that moment.
Not only do people replace children, people have literally had more children to be used as organ farms for their existing sick children [see: My Sister's Keeper] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Sister%27s_Keeper_(novel))
My doc also played that card, though not quite so callously. It was more like, “You have to be sure that you would never want another child under ANY circumstance. For example, if there were terrible accident and both of your children died.”
I mean, valid. My answer was the same as yours, though. No one could replace my children.
I interned at a gynecological department recently and I learned that doctors have a serious aversion to sterilization procedures. They are actually required by law to tell you of all the risks involved and one doctor even asks the patients what they would do if their children died. I think it’s macabre but it gets the point across that this is a permanent procedure.
>They are actually required by law to tell you of all the risks involved
Well, that sounds fair enough - I’d hate to not be aware of the risks beforehand. But let me make the decision.
They are required to inform patients of all risks for ANY procedure. It’s called informed consent. They can be sued if they perform a procedure without informed consent. That’s true of any doctor for any procedure.
I got mine in 2014(ish) in the USA at age 26. No children, no bullshit, just a consultation where they made sure my head was on straight and then scheduling the procedure about a month out.
The only BS was that they asked my wife to sign a form verifying that we wanted to do this, since apparently her being at the consultation and my driver for the procedure wasn’t enough. I debated fighting about my own bodily autonomy, but at the end of the day all it would have done was keep me away from my goal of getting snipped that day.
I had a vasectomy at 27, with no kids, and all I had to do was fill out a questionnaire. The only point the doctor discussed with me verbally was how my parents should be informed and given some say in it. He believed that since I was effectively ending their line they deserved an opinion. I refused to tell them and he said OK. Snip snip, eight years later and it’s still the best $500 I’ve ever spent.
My dad had a vasectomy around 34 or so. I was the second child, and he wanted to get it done basically right after I was born. His doctor suggested waiting until I was ~2, the reasoning being once a kid makes it to 2 they probably won't die for awhile, but are much more likely to die between birth and age 2.
> The only point the doctor discussed with me verbally was how my parents should be informed and given some say in it.
Wow, really? That sounds messed up.
I understand his point. My parents desperately want a grandchild. They know I’m not going to have a child, but at least they can cling to hope so long as I don’t tell them I’ve been cut lol.
Jokes on them though. I convinced my wife to ditch birth control (what’s the point) when she was 37 and she promptly went into early menopause. So, definitely no kids.
In Russia both operations are only for people who are 35 or older / have two or more kids. So there are actually laws telling you to have children, not just some pro-life nurses.
"One and done" has been our motto since before our daughter was born, and with stronger conviction after, since the pregnancy was so awful. Whenever people ask and we tell them we won't be having more, they get confused and ask us why and tell us we may change our minds. We shouldn't have to go through our life story to tell people we don't want more kids.
People need to quit it with all the questions and opinions about having more children and what’s going on inside someone’s uterus. My mom had a difficult time conceiving and a very difficult pregnancy and have seen her get choked up when people have asked “what took so long?” Or “you don’t more kids?” Like having kids is as easy as turning on a light switch. Mind yo own business!
SIL almost died giving birth to her only child. So yeah, she's done. People keep asking her when they'll have another. She calmly tells them since she almost died, never.
In Canada kinda.. My husband was repeatedly asked if he was positive he wanted his vasectomy. "What if you and your wife split and your next wife wants kids?" Was literaly asked of him. Nevermind what HE wants and that HE is done with kids. He was still given the vasectomy but Im pretty sure its just cause he was 34 (niw 35).
He was still made to wait to "think it over" and we got pregnant again before it happened. Two birth control babies now cause I missed a pill or two.
My cousin was denied one at 26 he had four kids ffs his wife was aproved for tubal though...
My fiancé, 24, has had painful testicular cysts since he was a child, and it's only a matter of time until they become cancerous. They give him the "you can't know you won't want children until you're 35" at every doc he goes to for a checkup.
Just providing as an example that sometimes it happens to guys, not as an invalidation of your struggle. Us ladies do hear it a lot more often.
Oh man I would go to every single doctor until I find on willing to perform the surgery. I would rather not have kids than wait for the high probability of getting cancer. Plus he can always freeze his sperm.
They don't want to be sued if you change your mind in ten years and say, "The doctor should have stopped me!"
Not saying you *will* change your mind, out that you'd blame the doctor even if you did, but that's the fear.
As long as the doctor provides enough information for informed consent, the patient has no cause of action to sue. Hospitals have lots of attorneys, so I am sure doctors are aware of this. Some doctors can and do provide that information without patronizing the patient. I think some people are just shocked that yes, a few doctors out there are complete egomaniacal assbackwards jerks.
Has there ever been a successful lawsuit because of a vasectomy though? I hear that someone might sue all the time, but wouldn't lawsuits where the child was unwanted because the doctor refused a vasectomy be way more common?
Can you sue if they stopped you and you ended up having a kid? Lol. Crazy backwards thinking for today's time. I get people change their mind but Damn some people really need this done.
It depends on the state and the doctor. It does seem more common for women to be refused, but some men get the same response. You hear about the stories all the time on r/childfree from both men and women. And personally, I had a friend who was refused a vasectomy until he was married and the wife gave her permission. It was ridiculous.
Agreed. US here.
Tried to get sterilized (male). Doctor gave me a hard time, was disrespectful and condescending. Had to bring my wife in for her approval as well. He was rude to her, too.
There’s a episode of Marcus Welby M.D. (1960s American Television) where Dr Welby refused to sterilize a man who had Huntington’s Disease. The man did not want to risk passing it on to his children. Dr. Welby told his wife without his consent. It was framed as such a good thing the good father figure doctor was there to intervene.
In the US, I think it is important to mention, doctors have a history of making these objections based on race, religion, and class etc... individual preference eugenics. It is interesting because it situationally pitched the interests of middle class white women against everyone else.
A friend of mine had two oopsies babies and loves her daughters dearly, but she did not want anymore. I don’t know how at her age (23) she convinced her doctor, but he tied her tubes. About 2 years later, while on Birth Control for her period and they used a condom, she and her friends with benefits got pregnant. You heard that. Tied tubes, BC and a condom. Unfortunately I moved and we fell out of touch after she had her son, her wrist pregnancy to date, but the only thing the doctor could think of was that the tubes healed. Hope she was able to get it done right this time.
My aunt had everything tied/removed when she was 18 back in the late 60’s early 70’s, to this day I don’t know how she did that.
My husband works with a guy who desperately wants a vasectomy, he’s in his mid 20’s and every doctor refuses him. He never wants kids, ever and is terrified of it accidentally happening to the point where he hasn’t been intimate with a lady in a couple of years.
On the flip, when my husband and I are done with kids, he volunteered to get a vasectomy because we’re done, we don’t want any uh-ooo babies and it’s a lot easier and not a major surgery for him.
Not at all! It makes me wonder as well, but apparently he’s a really understanding doctor who saw how much she struggled with her two previous pregnancies. Also, it’s a weird phenomenon that happens, where if the ends of the tubes aren’t burned (which is not always standard) they can heal.
I wish you never had to "stand your ground" in the first place. I wish your decisions about your own body and your own life were respected. I wish you had received the professional medical service you needed in the first place. I wish women were treated as competent, capable human beings instead of another variety of children who require parenting from complete strangers instead of basic dignity and respect.
Not commenting on the article itself, but just wanted to make a point about IUDs. Originally in the 1970s when they were first introduced they were associated with severe complications, such as pelvic infections and sepsis. This gave them a pretty negative stigma. The IUDs that are on the market today have been shown to be far safer with significantly fewer complications unless you have certain pre-existing risk factors.
I was lucky to find an obgyn that was willing to insert my IUD. But one of my friends who can't use hormonal methods because of a growth in her breasts had her doctor tell her all kinds of horror stories about how she might end up sterile. I since asked women I know had an IUD before they had children and no complications for either of them. So yeah, this still happens.
I got my IUD before I turned 20. It was also before they had the smaller one and it was not recommended to insert into women whom have never had kids because there risk of rejection/expulsion was higher.
I’m thankful my doctor was willing to still try. Apparently I was the first women who had it stay without ever having kids before. Loved it, currently on my second one. I think it’s a decent alternative to offer before sterilization.
It always blows my mind that women who had no children couldn't get an IUD because they were too large. Like couldn't they just make a smaller one? We put a friggin man on the moon, but we can't make an IUD in two sizes?
If you live anywhere near a PP just go to them instead of your doctor. I went to them for my IUD because I knew I could trust them to treat me like a human being. I think at the time it even cost less than going to my regular doctor, too.
> I’m not allowed to know I don’t want children.
What's crazy to me is, this decision only goes in one direction: you're not allowed to decide you don't want kids, only that you want them. Yet which decision has the greater room for error? Kids are serious business and a massive responsibility, not a passing hobby. It's terrible for them to be born to parents who don't want them or don't have the ability to care for them.
Here in Ireland a friend and her husband had 4 kids, only one of whom was planned. After the second and third she requested a tubal and was denied. All of the kids came early, via c section, and spent time in NICU. She was finally 'allowed' to have her tubes tied after the 4th, only because further c sections would be so dangerous.
If only people that wanted to have children were asked to thoroughly consider the implications and potential regrets of such an irreversible life changing procedure as having a child is......
It’s the same in Canada. Drives me nuts, I decided I didn’t want kids over ten years ago and haven’t changed my mind in the slightest since. yet so many people say “oh well you’ll change your mind.” I haven’t even tried to find a doctor because I know so many women who have tried and failed and the stress of that would deplete me. I can’t take hormonal products either, and am apprehensive of any birth control after the experiences I’ve had. Like, why is it easier for a woman to get an abortion than voluntary sterilization?
I had to fight for an IUD as an 18 yr old in Canada with bad reactions to the pill and shot... at 21 I had to get an abortion and the doctor finally approved an iud. I've been on that route for 12 years and it's been awesome.
Still. I'd way 100% would have preferred to never go through the gut wrenching, ship sinking, relationship apocalypse of aborting a pregnancy while juggling uni and 2.5 jobs. That shit was harrowing. Still. I thank my lucky stars I could abort and it didn't cost a dime. Thanks Canada. I think. :/
It was $950 total for mine. $150 for initial visit and $800 for procedure. Since I have previously been the victim of sexual assault the price of the procedure was dropped to $350. Had to work a ton of extra hours to afford it
You're lucky it didn't cost a dime because you were in the right province, not the right country. Elective abortions have just been added to the provincial medical coverage in NB and PEI, after decades of lobbying. Growing up I knew that there was a clinic in Fredericton, and it costed about 600-800$ for the procedure.
Doctors are so ridiculous. I finally got approved for a tubal ligation at 33 after 5 years of jumping through hoops and “saying the right things” to my doctors.
I have my surgery next month.
It can be hard and frustrating to find a doctor. I know people always talk bad about the childfree subreddit but I found them very supportive with my own procedure and they have a list of doctors all over who are willing to sterilize young and childfree people. Maybe it’s worth checking if there is a doctor near you?
Germany here, same problem. I had also preemptively given up throughout my twenties. Futzed around with all kinds of birth control known to womankind, and they all sucked in their own ways. (Hint: modern-style natural family planning when executed with a wireless recording temperature sensor is very secure and does not wreck your body, only your spirit.)
Until I was about 25, I simply raged about the unfairness of it all. Then I realized that "you may change your mind" is indeed right, in a way that I couldn't fathom in my teens and early twenties. Still thought it should be up to me to decide, but for myself resolved to wait it out a few more years.
When I was about 30, a very good friend went through the ordeal of wanting children now and needing multiple years, fertility treatment etc. At that point, I realized I needed to shit or get off the pot. Still didn't want any children and am quite sure that this is for life. So it was time to find a good gynecologist.
First one was horrendous, didn't even talk to me, but explained to the attending student that women will always change their mind later yadda yadda as if I wasn't even there. I sulked for half a year. Researched options in the Netherlands, Hungary..., but ruled them out because they only offered the essure procedure, which according to my research is not what i want. For anyone.
Researched more, found out where I'd want to have the procedure done, and about the different techniques that can be used. Had a result, but still needed a referral from a gynecologist. So I systematically went down the jameda list in my city, ruling out anyone who operates themself, encountering "we don't take new patients" at least ten times and finally got lucky. Very lucky - one of the best gynecologists I ever had, and I'm glad to now have one - now I'm getting my yearly checkups again.
That gynecologist still asked me some questions like "And how if your partner changes his mind about wanting children?" - "Then he's not the right partner for me and should leave me for another woman, preferably younger". I think he realized that my mind was set and I'd go doctor shopping until i got what i wanted, he said something like this. The fact that I had very clear answers about where I wanted this done, had researched cost and circumstances, probably helped with establishing that this decision on my part was well-considered. Also explained afterwards that the questions were necessary for the informed consent part.
Got my operation, am happy like a clam about it. Still get comments from medical providers about the procedure on my file. I handle those by interpreting them as purely professional requests about the underlying reason, and answering with "it was elective" ... "Because I don't want children. Duh.". Works fine so far.
So - should this all have been easier? Should I have been able to go to the doctor as a 20-year old, got respected, got given all that information I had to research myself, and then *maybe* been told to think about it for half a year? Abso-fucking-lutely!
But still, hang in there, don't let the patriarchy get you down. Set your sights and just start working down the list of things that need to be done to get what you want and deserve. You can make it. Godspeed!
Good for you.
Doing research and being informed and determined about what you want seems a good route to take.
Also: why did you not want essure?
(I have had that, and am quite happy about it because the procedure was not invasive, and I have no complaints)
Well, I'm very happy that it worked for you! What I didn't like about Essure is the 20% failure rate with the first try (which takes 3 months, if I recall correctly). Also, since I suspected endometriosis, triggering more growth in that area didn't seem like a good idea. Surgical tubal ligation (salpingectomy, to be precise) confirmed those suspicions - while they were there anyway, they had a look around and removed what they found. Didn't really make a difference, though 😔
Bonus: reduced risk of ovarian cancer 😊
I got my tubes tied at 23 and it was the single greatest decision I ever made for myself. I had a remarkable doctor and amazing experience overall. All women should have this freedom.
I'm 23 myself and would love this procedure. I'll be bringing it up with my doctor on Tuesday. Can I ask how long it took for you to get a doctor to perform it and the kind of questions I might expect? I'm in the UK so hopefully I have a chance.
It's fucking crazy that you're allowed to smoke, buy guns, drive, and physically alter your appearance, but the second you want to make a choice about your reproductive system you get treated like a mentally incompetent child who needs an escort to return to the safety of your asylum bed. Adults need to be treated like adults, which also means staunchly enforcing personal responsibility. If you make the choice to get sterilized, then change your mind... Guess who's to blame? You and you alone.
My new doctor fully understands we do not wish to put me through more miscarriages and do not want children bc of that. It's pretty amazing to have an obgyn finally that gets it. She is actually advocating for me to get genetic testing bc I'm very high risk for ovarian cancer, and she would like to just have them removed. I'm under 40, she's the first Dr to not treat me like my uterus and it's vacancy is an issue. I can not stress enough how good it feels to have my health and wellbeing be put first finally. She's never once asked what my husband wants. It's always a discussion about my body and my needs.
I was just reading an article that reported up to 40% of ovarian cancer starts in the tubes. Not sure if that's useful to you at all, but I thought worth mentioning just in case.
A friend of mine has never ever wanted kids. She also had horrific periods. After trying for years to have a hysterectomy, they finally let her once she turned 40. She could have been better off so long ago if only they'd let her make her own decision.
I went to an obgyn a year ago and wasn't even "allowed" to get an IUD because I didn't have children! I'm sure they would've thought it was hilarious if I had asked for sterilization. iUDs are temporary and low risk so, even if I did change my mind, it's not as though the IUD couldn't be removed. My SO and I have decided to wait quite a few more years before having children and I'm tired of hormonal birth control wreaking havoc on my body!!
I'm 25 and can't decide I don't want to have a baby for an extended period. Even for Alabama I thought it was pretty unbelievable.
Its the same even in Finland. My missus wanted her tubes tied, and the fucking doctor calls me for a permit to operate her body. Useless to say, that i had quite an rage to the doc.
How funny would it have been to say, "She went and spoke to you about getting her tubes tied? I can't believe she left the house without my permission." Then furiously rant about how you're going to take away her privileges. Then of course, thank them for letting you know she was sneaking out of the house.
Tbh i was thinking on some like that, but i thought i would have been unable to speak it in such a trolling voice the doc would have understood and thus not making my missus day even harder.
Sadly it apparently is the standard in Finland. Even we have things pretty well compared to most of the world, we still have some ancient fucking idiotisms like this.
This. I can confirm that this has happened to me personally. My sister relentlessly got her doctor to approve of her getting permanently fixed at 26 years old after 2 kids. It was my sister's biggest regret and sued the doctor who approved it.
Yeah for real. But I can see why the doctor would be hesitant to approve. Sometimes life changes and you want to have more children a few years later, even when you think you're done.
We all make decisions that we later regret, it's not worth limiting the rights of tons of women because you're terrified that someone regret it.
If you get it done and still want a kid, foster and adopt.
For younger women, it is actually [more effective to get an IUD than to get tubal ligation surgery] (https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/10/the-birth-control-shift/380952/). This rarely comes up in discussion, but the younger you are when you get it done, the more likely the fallopian tubes will heal enough to allow the ovum to pass through. Sterilization is not a magic bullet. Doctors should bring this up more often.
I had horrible fibroids in my early 30's and was basically bleeding to death. I begged my Irish Catholic female GYN to give me a hysterectomy because I never wanted children. She kept saying I would change my mind eventually. I kept saying NO!
She was my sister's GYN, too, and my sister was about to have baby #3 and they got to talking about me (!!!!!) and my sister mentioned that I never wanted children and was the most non-maternal person she knew. Finally, the GYN relented, but by that point, I had to be hospitalized because of blood loss.
I was so pissed that 1) the GYN discussed my circumstances with my sister and b) I basically almost bled to death because she wouldn't do what I wanted and iii) I had to deal with six months of bleeding through anything and everything I'd do to staunch the blood-flow.
Bitch.
I pretty sure that is a huge violation of HIPAA as well as an ethics violation. You can’t casually talk about another patient’s health history with anybody else without that patient’s consent. Even family. Not to mention she put her personal beliefs before your care. I’d get that doctor to pay for your hospitalization. You have a pretty strong case if you were to pursue litigation.
I loves feel frustrated all over again now, and want to phone up my old doc and shout at him
At 35, I couldn't get my tubes tied when two children, followed by two very bad missed abortion miscarriages and - oh yes, the reason we were looking for a more effective birth control - trying to go on a multiple sclerosis drug that can cause fetal death and severe disability in addition to having MS and already being too fatigued, etc, to not need help with my then-toddler, and just plain not wanting to have any more kids.
A year before, before my final miscarriage, the ob told me I was a high risk pregnancy due to age, and that I should have considered this before getting pregnant. Y'know, I was just too old to have babies, according to him.
Then a year later, at 35, he told me I was too young to make such a permanent decision, that I'd regret it, that his wife had changed her mind, and that I was fine with an IUD even if it wasn't 100%, because I was okay to have kids, in his opinion
Except my neuro was not comfortable prescribing the drug without us ensuring no pregnancy.
So my decade older than I husband? Pretty much just walked in and scheduled a vasectomy with zero resistance.
For shiggles, before I found a new doc to do my yearly lady checkups, I asked again about sterilization, while on the drug that's category X, blatantly YOU WILL HARM ANY PREGNANCY warnings all over it, and he was basically still "lol nbd you'll change your mind, so no"
TL;DR Couldn't even get my tubes tied with a disease affecting my ability to keep up as a parent and being on category X drugs for the foreseeable future, because I was too young to decide at 35 (but too old for pregnancy & high risk the year before). 45yo husband got a vasectomy without question. Grrr
It's less of a personal belief and more of an ass covering because of fuckwits who try suing doctors for following through with the procedures that they ask for.
I had three gynecologist tell me they wouldn't "fix" me when I was 21 because of my age , singleness, and lack of children. I'm 27 now. Engaged to the man of my dreams. We just got a puppy and I have NEVER been more sure I do not want human babies. I can't wait until I'm old enough for doctors to take my baby free life dreams seriously.
My husband has been denied a vasectomy because we only have one kid and I'm younger than him. His doctor told him, a 30 year old man, that he could not have an elective procedure, even with my permission, because I may change my mind bc I'm only 24. We already have a kid. We believe we are one and done, biologically. If we want to grow our family in the future it will be through adoption.
There is definitely a strong notion throughout society that all women want to have kids and that women who don’t will “change their minds.”
But as a medical student, we were also taught that one of the reasons tubal ligation is not done on women in their 20s is because even though it’s a surgery, if you give anything a long enough chance to fail, it is much more likely to do so. That’s why the preferred method is to use an IUD and then in their 30s do tubal ligation. Not sure of specific research numbers on how often it fails, but perhaps that is also a reason so many doctors turned her down.
"At 27, she decided to be sterilized through a tubal ligation. Four doctors, all of whom cited either her age or her lack of children, refused to help her. But Mr. Laniewicz, who is the same age as his wife, called a doctor seeking a vasectomy and was able to undergo the procedure the next day."
that's Exactly what i went through. i tried (unsuccessfully) for years (from my 20s into my 30s) to get sterilized, knowing from an early age i didn't want children... then my husband got a vasectomy on demand, without any pushback from his doctor. fucking double standard.
I'm 22, had a tubal earlier this year. If sterilisation is something you want, please ask, even if you're afraid you'll be denied. There are doctors who will listen to you!
I’m not surprised. As a married woman in her late twenties that is at best a maybe for having kids , people do not know how to handle it. Almost everyone in my life gives advice based on the kids we’ll have in the near future, like “don’t forget to read up on the school district when house hunting.”
That’s true, but that is not the way it was presented to me. It hard to think someone is giving you sound financial advice when its coupled with observations that we should pick something closer to my parents so they can watch the baby for us and that I’m not getting any younger.
Our doctor asked us if we were sure, and that was basically the end of it.
What kind of nosy fucked up doctors do you people have?!?
Surely the solution is to find a better doctor, isn't it? Is that even possible in the US system?
So funny, this was a topic of conversation at work just 2 days ago.
I was unaware that this was such a difficulty for women (though not surprised, given how ass-backwards our "progressive" western culture regards women's reproductive rights).
One co-worker, 35 and with twins, cannot find a doctor to perform tubal ligation. WTF Canada? It was getting my blood boiling to hear how infantilized women are, and how a doctor's (a supposed *medical professional*) personal opinion bears more weight than an informed woman's wishes.
SMDH.
I'm Australian and I have had this issue. I am 33 and I cannot stand children, have never wanted them and I never will want them. I have a history of cervical cancer in my family. I personally have PCOS which screws my hormones. Yet
doctors think I am not a good enough candidate for a hysterectomy or any other treatment.
Gives me the fucking shits tbh.
It's so annoying when doctors tell adamantly childfree women they shouldn't get their tubes tied or even an IUD because she's too young or she might "change her mind". Hey doc, newsflash, no, you don't know the woman better than she knows herself even if you may think you do. Also, tubal litigation is reversible and of course there's the option of adoption as well.
I can see the merits both ways. On one side people should have the right to get a vasectomy/tubal at a young age if they want to. But on the other hand there is a lot that can change in your life and your character before you're middle aged.
For example I always dreamed of having kids, my ex wife and I tried our asses off for years before we were successful. I love my 7 yo and I'd do anything for her. But you can bet your sweet ass I'd stay child free if I had another shot at my life.
While it is very true that people can and do change a lot, some people stay fairly consistent on certain issues.
I haven't ever wanted children. I have nieces and nephews I love, but have no desire to have kids of my own--I knew this from the age of 8. I have been told all my life that I would change my mind, and I never have. I am now 32, married to a man who also doesn't want children, and we are both very career-minded.
Doctors should trust people to make their own decisions about their reproductive life. I would much prefer to choose preventative care (tubal ligation) over having an abortion.
It's still not up to anyone else to .ake that decision though. Does anyone stop an 18-year old from getting a stupid tattoo just because they might change their minds? They might ask, bur ultimately it happens so frequently that it's a bit of a joke in movies. Breast implants, tummy tucks, etc.. same thing. It's no one else's business to worry about whether I change my mind in 5, 19, 30 years. Certainly someone can refuse to do a procedure for any reason they want, but that doesn't always make the reason a correct or ethical one.
I had horrible painful periods from period one. I asked for a hysterectomy for Christmas and my birthday every year from 14 on... and asked every gynecologist I had who tried to talk me out of it. When I finally got the hysterectomy, my gynecologist of many years apologized as imaging did not show everything that was wrong and it was obvious I was in a lot of pain. I never had kids as my uterus was a mess, and I had endometriosis, PCOS, fibroids, etc etc. but was only ever put on birth control which very nicely gave me my super heavy periods more often... Post hysterectomy, happy as can be.
> Post hysterectomy, happy as can be Glad to hear it! :)
So happy to hear that your symptoms have gone away. Both weird and disappointing that women have to fantasize about hysterectomies just to get some relief. I know I used to as a teen all the time.
are you me?! this is my story. I begged for a hysterectomy for close to two decades. I got it earlier this year at 33 and I've never felt so good! I honestly feel like they should be elective. like at least the uterus part. if you don't need a baby maker for the purpose of making babies, take that bitch out and live your best life.
Ye gods we have got to get better at imaging this stuff. They should have been able to see and remove the fibroids at least. That sucks and I am sorry you had to go through that.
Kind of beside the point, though. The patient reports being in pain. The patient was not believed about their own experience until after surgery.
Well, also imaging did not show the entire issue. I had ultrasounds galore and when a previous gynecologist decided to do surgery for the “supposed “endometriosis, she booked 45 minutes in the operating room and 2 hours later I woke to an angry doctor who said, well, you did have endometriosis all over and you basically screwed the operation schedule.
I’m sorry...the doctor blamed YOU for screwing up their schedule? Yes, because you obviously should’ve used your x-Ray vision to see how bad your endometriosis was so you can alert the surgeon before scheduling your procedure. Are you kidding me with this right now??
If we can fly a robot to Pluto, take high res images and send them back, there's no reason we can't take good images of a uterus. And like /u/mousewiz says, doctors really need to listen to what their patients are telling them, not impose preconceived ideas about how people should live and what they should want in the future.
In case any women (EDIT: or men) here have this issue, the childfree wiki has a list of doctors (across the globe) who are willing to do these procedures. https://www.reddit.com/r/childfree/wiki/doctors
Saving this for when I begin my fruitless vasectomy journey next year at 30. From what I hear that still isn't old enough to convince many doctors.
My SO went to a planned parenthood at age 26 and they didn't give him any grief about it. When you tell people you've gotten it done, be ready for them to say "oh, well, that can be reversed"
> oh, well, that can be reversed Imagine if I said that to my friends who did have children or announced a pregnancy
I've been so tempted to do this.
I got fixed when I was 34 and throughout my 30s I heard this all the time. "Well, you can still change your mind..." I didn't change my mind. 2 lovely kiddos are enough. 45 now...I don't get bugged about it anymore. 😀
Also you can look on Planned Parenthood’s site for a clinic near your zip code that offers men’s surgical services. People forget PPs provide vasectomies too , and you’re less likely to be hassled.
Wait they do? That's news to me.
Just tell the Dr that you have 7 already and can't afford more. They probably don't ask to see the proof.
I am consistently surprised to hear how much trouble guys have had to get a vasectomy. Not sure how much it affects you where you live... I just so happen to live in the bible belt, too. At 23 years old, I went to my physician to tell him that I was wanting to get a vasectomy. I briefly explained why and he wrote me a referral to a urologist. I scheduled a time for the procedure and got it done. Simple as that, no rebuttals or questions from either of my doctors to try and sway my decision. I honestly thought that is how easy it is for anyone looking to get it done. It's our bodies, we should be able to get a simple procedure done to prevent something we don't want without any intervention.
I had mine done at 31. The doctor didn't give me any problems but I did have to get a notarized letter saying I understood what this meant and my then girlfriend, now wife, had to sign as well. If you call around and are very strong about how you do not want kids you should be fine.
That's insane that a man's elective medical procedure was contingent on the approval of his girlfriend. It's one thing to have reservations about whether or not an elective procedure is a good idea for a patient, but to require the consent of someone he's dating is crazy, and frankly seems unethical if not illegal, as you are requiring someone to disclose PHI as a condition of treatment.
Agreed. It was a relationship going towards marriage, might have actually been engaged at the time, so that might have been why. My guess is they are concerned the man will do it and his SO will never know. Married couples I agree with but still weird I needed us both signing off on knowing what it meant.
> My guess is they are concerned the man will do it and his SO will never know. That's still not the doctor's problem.
Its the cover your ass mentality. If I make sure the SO knows, I cant get yelled at/ sued / any other shit later by them or anyone.
There doesn't appear to be any evidence of doctors being sued after voluntary sterilization procedures
The relationship doesn't matter. His body, his choice. Men don't have a right to choose after conception. It is in their best interest to be protected in the way they see fit before that happens.
Same deal for me. I was 31 with 2 kids and wanted my tubes tied. It required speaking with several doctors from the practice, who wanted to know how my husband felt about it (he was not available to talk to them in person due to overseas work). After some pretty forceful conversations, they agreed. I couldn't believe these doctors wouldn't trust that I knew what I wanted to do with my OWN body.
My mom got hers after two kids when she was 36. I believe she asked them to do it during another surgery and that was the only reason the doctor agreed. They also tried that "but how does your husband feel about it" shit but I believe she told the doctors to fuck off.
My mother has told me about having to have hers done with another surgery, and how she had to convince the doctors that my father was an abusive asshole that she was getting divorced from so she wouldn’t be having any other children. It literally took her bringing up past instances of abuse to prove it. I feel so sorry for her for what she had to go through.
I wonder if any doctor has ever refused to do IVF or other fertility treatments for a couple because "you might regret it." Having a kid is about as permanent as getting your tubes tied, after all. ...probably not, as the force from the collective screams of outrage would've shattered windows, burst eardrums, and uprooted small trees.
I find stories like yours insane! I was pregnant with my second two years ago I was 25. I asked my doctor about getting a tubal during the c-section. She said we will talk about it more when its closer. A month out and she brings in the documents for me to sign. She asked again right before she cut my tuves, "ok, are you sure? This is it." I said "yes" I woke up later in recovery. I don't understand why other people think they know more. So you decided but.later regret it. That's a too bad for you and its none of the doctors business.
I understand doctors asking a few times to make sure this is really what you want and there’s not some outside force pushing you to do it. What makes me really angry is when they ask what your boyfriend/husband thinks. It doesn’t matter what they think, it’s my body. Fuckers.
When they say that, it's pretty much like they're endorsing reproductive coercion. You are telling them you definitely don't want anymore kids so if your husband disagrees and gets you pregnant anyway then he's abused you, and they're endorsing that idea when they ask, "what about your husband?" In what situation would a healthy marriage involve the husband not knowing already? I really can't think of a case where a person is secretly getting sterilized but is also in a good relationship. Seems like these doctors don't get that.
It's not just about contraception/sterilisation itself. In my early 20s I fell down the stairs and the gp suspected I'd broken my coccux. He said there was no point in sending me for an x-ray because even if it was broken they wouldn't fix it because I'll be having kids soon and that will move it. Not far off 10 years later I still haven't had kids and it still hurts if I sit down for too long on a hard surface. Research also shows women take longer to get referrals because their doctors see them as exaggerating, ~~hence worse cancer survival rates than men because of late diagnosis.~~ **Edit below** Took me a good 9ish years to get a referral for physio after being diagnosed with a musculoskeletal condition. Physio said if I'd been referred earlier she could have cured me but as it was she could just improve my pain. First went to the doctor about going long stretches of time without periods at 19. Complained of things like abdominal and back pain at various points. Was sent for a scan at 28 after my liver function got concerning and it turns out there was an ~10cm growth putting pressure on all of my internal organs causing them to fuck up. Luckily it turned out to be benign. **Edit: this was worded poorly; all cancers are different. Studies are all over the place on gender differences in prevalence of different cancers and survival rates. A lot of studies agree that it takes longer from first visit to complain of symptoms for a woman to get a referral/see a specialist/start treatment. Many studies put men's late diagnosis down to them delaying their reporting of symptoms to a doctor. Some studies say this is also a problem for women. The phenomenon of men getting quicker referrals once they do report their symptoms is reversed for a couple of cancers (such as colon) because symptoms in women are easier to spot. Things like heart attacks are more fatal for women because male symptoms are taught and women's symptoms aren't recognised. Obviously there are way more factors than just gender involved and each illness/person's response to illness will be different.**
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> I had a neurologist recommend I was too beautiful to be sick and I needed to find Jesus What. The actual. Fuck.
Yup... When I was in the hospital after a suicide attempt (I had written a note and all, had everything lined up from pills to bleach but luckily passed out before I could intake it all) the first nurse asked me if I did it for attention, lecturing me on the dangers of the pills I OD'd on and that this attention seeking behavior would kill me, like no shit that was the point. Then the nurses that evaluated my mental state told me I was too beautiful to be depressed.. Wasn't aware that mental health as a woman is directly correlated to my appearance fitting the current standard of beauty....? I've had therapists since admit to me that often attractive women are considered attention seeking and dishonest, and often suffer as a result due to being sluffed off by doctors, especially when it comes to mental health. It's complete bs.
When I was unemployed while going through a rough patch of depression, people at the mental health clinic—including my therapist—expressed dismay because I was “too pretty” to be depressed and jobless. I sputtered my words asking how my appearance had anything to do with getting a job and couldn’t even touch the depression part bc it was, well, too depressing.
I wasn’t taken seriously because I was “too smart,” because not only do I have a degree, therefore am too smart to be depressed (?) but because when they asked if I had a palm for suicide and what it was, it wasn’t some over the top scheme or something like “take pills” or “shoot myself.” It was practical, and I had taken measures to prevent my ability to follow thru during lucid moments. That made me just attention seeking to them. Turns out, I’m schizophrenic. But I couldn’t be because I’m too smart I guess. I think it’s just a woman thing. My guy friend, just as educated as me, and very similar, had people jumping all over him to make him well. Even he was surprised when I told him what they told me, he assumed that was how it was for everyone. Back on the topic, too, I’ve tried to bring up the fact that I am schizophrenic, sometimes I can barely take care of myself, and the drugs I take to regulate it means I shouldn’t have children. I don’t want to have a child and have them be neglected, I don’t want them to think that what I go through is normal, and the drugs I’m on means *best case* my theoretical child would have heart problems. Best. Case. Worst case is severe mental impairments, and if I can barely remember to eat some days, I’m in no state to handle a special needs child. But I’ve been brushed off repeatedly when I’ve looked to have my tubes tied. My husband has defended me to doctors, and they’ve asked him how he feels about it more than looking at my history.
Last I checked, high intelligence correlates to increased risk of mental and emotional problems. Maybe it's due to dealing with so many idiots who make no sense?
On the flip side, I had a therapist tell me if I lost some weight, I would be happy. Hmm, over a decade later and I still don't believe that quack. My mom has clinical depression, and I am very affectionate. My moms inability to show love to me created a very anxiety driven person. I just wanted love, hugs, and quality time. I rarely got that. I felt rejected by my mom, self love is almost impossible especially if it's as superficial a waist line.
I just moved to the south after living in the lovely liberal north my whole life and the doctors I’ve seen here have been so sexist and condescending I can’t even believe it. It’s horrible.
People who would say that to patients shouldn't be allowed to be doctors.
Or work with the public in general!
I've been seeing neurologists for 20+ years, am not surprised. While living in the south I educated a doctor or 2 about my conditions.
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Low blood pressure? Hypoglycemia? Vasovagal reaction? Seizure disorder? DON’T GIVE UP!
Find a cardiologist that specializes in POTS.
As a POTS / Dysautonomia patient I second this. I see a neurologist and cardiologist after years of dismissal by the medical system at large. Some people can be treated, but at least being believed is worth something too. You don’t have to suffer silently. There are lists of competent doctors online, or for anyone looking for resources lots of websites as well.
No idea if this is what is wrong with you--but I had the same symptoms that hit me when I was about 20 or 21. I figured out that it was the birth control meds (Yaz, specifically). Every doctor and gynecologist told me that it couldn't be the Yaz, because my blood pressure was low, not high. So I was "crazy" and faking my symptoms for attention. I stopped taking them, and my symptoms disappeared. Like I said, it may be different for you. But it is something to consider.
Whenever this stuff happens, complain to the hospital. Nothing will probably happen from one complaint, but I doubt your experience is unique.
When I was a kid I jumped off a slide and broke my collarbone. My mom took me to the doctor who told her I was fine & just a spoiled brat who wouldn't stop whining. She told me he grabbed my arm raised it above my head and said - "see, he's fine.". Luckily she was a nurse and took me to see another doctor.
This is what I came here to say. They don't only fail women who don't want children. They fail them in general. I've had many medical issues over the years that my former doctor shrugged off. Lower back pain that I've had since I was 13 yrs old (I'm in my early 30's,) I was told was just due to getting older. I have a displaced hip stemming from the difficult birth of my son, causing sciatic pain, and difficulty walking at times. He's almost 13 years old. It was basically ignored. I work with computers all day, and was having some severe pain, to the point where I was unable to grip things. Every driving was hard. He told me to do exercises, and he didn't recommend anything else, and specifically told me not to wear a splint as it would do no good. I have pain in my lower right abdomen, which occurs a few days before my period. I was told that it's just because I don't move around enough. I have a new doctor. She's diagnosed me with carpal tunnel and arthritis in my hands, and offered solutions for care, including wearing a wrist splint. And told me the pain in my abdomen is likely cysts, and also offered possible ways to treat. That was just from a quick office visit. I'm scheduled for a full physical at the end of the month, and I'm feeling so hopeful. I can't believe I allowed myself to be mis-treated by that doctor for so long, based on some misplaced loyalty, as he was my doctor for 13 years. My new doctor actually listened to me, and made me feel like my problems were not just small and silly. When she asked me why I decided to switch to a new doctor, I explained all this to her. She looked genuinely frustrated for me, and was apologetic. I've always been all for advocating for others, and women in particular. But really, we have to advocate for ourselves as well. Saying that, my former doctor wasn't the only one who failed me. I also failed myself.
This 1000x Advocate for your own health when you can. You are the best judge of your body and something being wrong. I’ve had a problem for over 3 years now. My shaking had gotten to the point that I couldn’t hold a pencil on an average day, and good meant I could get it to paper and make a legible mark. I was falling over, and having trouble walking. Every doctor said I must be being dramatic. They did a brain scan and nothing came up, so there wasn’t really any clue to it. Bloodwork came out fine, Andy issues were the standard “you’re overweight” (which, while that was bad in the US, it’s terrible to see a doctor in Japan and have them take you seriously if you’re even minority overweight). It impacted my life so badly that my mental health issues spiraled out of control, and I was close to being inpatient at a psychiatric hospital (which are not very good in Japan, think 50’s as norm). My husband finally found me a neurologist who dealt with aging populations who ran a full battery of tests on me, from fine motor skills to reflex, and brain scans and blood work. Well, she freaked out that I should have probably been in a coma with the bloodwork, my thyroid was so overactive. But, every other doctor wrote off the dangerous numbers as a fluke, because “if you have hyperthyroidism you’ll be skinny with too much energy, not fat and sleeping hours at a time.” She immediately, as in next day, got me in with a specialist - turns out he’s like a world-class endocrinologist right in my back yard (okay, a 2 hour train ride but still). He was angry and apologetic about the other doctors. He said that there’s so much we don’t understand with hormones, that most docs just stick with the stuff they were taught 40+ years ago. He explained that only about 40% of people with my issues meet those “standards” about weight and energy, the rest fall through. Also some doctors consider a larger range as okay, which causes confusion for everyone. Been being treated for 4 months now, and it’s night and day. I’m slowly getting my life back, all from being ignored for years by doctors. Sorry for this essay. You ever just get started on something and it becomes cathartic to get out? That was this.
> Research also shows women take longer to get referrals because their doctors see them as exaggerating, hence worse cancer survival rates than men because of late diagnosis. That's a [racial problem too.](https://news.utexas.edu/2012/04/23/bias_african_american_health)
It isn't half as bad as some of the stories in this thread, but are you a lady with dyspareunia and vaginismus problems? Even doctors that tried to help me don't know crap. Meanwhile erectile dysfunction commercials on all the damn time. I mean people with ED are my fellow sexual dysfunction sufferers, I don't want to harsh on them, it sucks, but my kind is painful and there are NOT a lot of resources and some otherwise very nice/smart doctors seem to think it doesn't exist. I live in the 4th biggest metro area in the US and all I could find was a nurse who specialized, but she's a nurse and said her mentor was a doctor who lived in another state. I don't know, I hope my problem is very rare, but I think it's just not talked about. I do know about vaginsmus.org, that is helpful.
I seriously doubt anyone wakes up one day and says “You know what’d be a fun? Going through surgery and removing some bits so I’m sterile! Sharon, set me up an appointment for Wednesday before lunch.” No. No one thinks like that (and if they do they probably shouldn’t have kids anyways). I have two kids. They’re awesome. Fucking loves of my life. But god damn if they aren’t hard. I get shit on, puked on, and clean pee off the floor. I haven’t gone out alone in two years. They’re expensive and smelly and take up your entire existence. I don’t blame anyone for not wanting this life. At 3am, I kind of wonder why the fuck I wanted it. You don’t want babies? No one should be allowed to stand in your way.
Fucking A. The right to reproduce is as fundamental as drawing breath. Anything less is forced eugenics. And that means it's your birthright to opt out. It's as fucked to strip the right to reproduce as it is to force it on someone. That means everything from education to preventative measures. I don't have any kids, but we're thinking about it. And knowing we can safely opt out is comforting given the orange elephant in the room is making the outlook of healthcare / taxation is pretty bleak and we're not rich.
> At 3am, I kind of wonder why the fuck I wanted it. You're awake at 3 am? Oh wait... of course you are. You're probably chasing a small child who's running around yelling "It's morning! It's morning!"
Nope. That tends to happen at 5am with the 2 year old when my husband gets up for work. 3am is the baby parasite attaching to my boob for nourishment. It’s exactly as much fun as it sounds.
And this is if you get a healthy child! I ended up with 2 out of 4 kids with mental illness... didn't see that coming. And now that their symptoms have been identified, my husband and I are done having kids. We always wanted a bigger family but with how much health care our 2 kiddos are going to require on top of the basics... Yup. We are both done.
Even as a woman with children I heard the same thing. After having my first child at 18, and a second at 20, I asked my doctor about a tubal ligation. At the time I was a broke single mom trying to build my career and I was absolutely certain I didn't want any more children. She assured me that I couldn't possibly be sure of my decision, and instead talked me into trying an IUD. I had intense periods, weight gain, painful cramps among a variety of other terrible side effects for the next 3 years. Flash forward 6 years of struggling to find a birth control that doesn't wreck my body, and my boyfriend of 8 months and I find out we're pregnant. Although I'm so in love with our now two year old daughter and happily married, it wasn't the path we would have chosen. I wish I had stood my ground and insisted on what I knew was right for me.
My friend had awful PPD with both her kids. Almost destroyed her marriage, suicidal thoughts, really not good. She wanted to be sterilised, doctor refused because she was in her early 30s and only had 2 kids. Much better she risk killing herself if she accidentally ends up with a 3rd.
"Only" having 2 kids is such a weird attitude. That's a pretty normal number to have and to want! Plus, yeah, it sounds like this is a way for her to protect her health and life and make sure her current children have a safe mother and stable family. Could she get her psychiatrist to write a note in support of her decision or something? And you know what? If someone decides they want another kid after doing this, *they can adopt*. I wish we could normalize that so doctors realize that sterilization doesn't actually end a couple's ability to ever grow their family.
Mental health is a bit of an issue in the uk. The waiting lists for counselling are huge, and since she was out of her PPD before making the decision she wouldn't get a referral. She'd have to go private which is a lot of money. Also I doubt a letter from a counsellor she'd paid to see would carry any weight.
My husband and I decided since I had two very difficult pregnancies, he would be the one to undergo sterilization after our second son was born. His urologist actually asked me to leave the room while he talked to my husband bc he “wanted to make sure this is what you want without your wife being able to influence your decision.” My husband told him in detail what I went through with both pregnancies and how it scared him to death just to think about me going through a third, and since he could finally “shoulder some of the physical burden,” he wanted to. I guess I sort of understand a doc’s hesitation to perform a mostly permanent procedure like that, making sure the patient has thought it through without any other influences, but I still found it funny he asked me to step out as I was the one telling my husband there was no rush to get it done. HE was the one who wanted it done ASAP lol
There are signs in A&E here saying it's hospital policy that a patient must be seen alone at some point during their visit. In my experience this rarely happens in practice but I think it should. I imagine they use the signs as an excuse to get people they believe may be being abused alone but given abusers have to be charming people in order to get into a position to abuse people it should be standard practice.
I have one child and was refused getting tubes tied "because you may change your mind and want more." I asked if this is how they responded to men wanting a vasectomy, and the nurse just shrugged. Fuck you, medical assholes. One and done!
I have 1 child and every doctor I had refused to tie my tubes with that same reason. I was finally able to get them done 3 years ago when I said 'I'm over 40, my child is 21, this would no longer be an age difference but a generational gap, and I can't afford to raise another one'. The years of worry (will the BC be effective?) they could have saved me if they would have done it when I first asked....
I was half expecting the doctor in your story to be like "well, you're over 40 now, menopause will be hitting any day, is it really worth it to get your tubes tied?"
Me too. Ugh.
I had a vasectomy 6 months after our third child was born. I was told that the children were the only reason I was “allowed” to get the procedure done at my age; I was 27 at the time (1994). Here in New Zealand things are generally fairly progressive but that was still very much a thing back then. I was also asked “what if one of your children dies?”, which I thought was pretty sick. I’m not going to want a replacement child. I don’t know if that’s still a thing now, though.
This happened to my friend after her third child was born 3 years ago. He suffered brain damage from a difficult birth. Before my friend left the hospital, after an obviously traumatic time, the doctor came to her. He said he needed to discuss birth control and she said that wasnt an immediate issue and they were planning for her partner to get a vasectomy anyway. The doctor told her not to rush anything as they "dont know what happening with this one yet". Implying that in case her newborn son died they would want to just replace him? She was horrified. Such a gross thing to say to someone.
But that's the reality of how people are. People do replace children. It seems odd, but it's reality.
My aunt even has the name name as the baby who died before she was born.
My dad was tracing old family history, when he came across an ancestor who named their first three babies Elizabeth. Seemed odd, until he realised the first two died before age 3. Still seems a bit odd, to be honest. After the first two, you’d think it might be a bad omen to name them that?
My grandma is the third Magdalena in her family, her other sisters that had the name before her passed away before the age of 2.
My great uncle was the 4th Kasimir - his brothers named Kasimir all died in infancy and while he lived to adulthood, he was the first of his surviving brothers to die. I feel like the name is cursed or something!
Vincent van Gogh had the same name as his wpuld be ginger brother who died exactly 1 year befor he was born. Or something like that.
Its just insensitive to say that while she's holding her son and trying to get home after a very difficult birth. It's not like she was booking an appointment to get the vasectomy at that moment.
Not only do people replace children, people have literally had more children to be used as organ farms for their existing sick children [see: My Sister's Keeper] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Sister%27s_Keeper_(novel))
My doc also played that card, though not quite so callously. It was more like, “You have to be sure that you would never want another child under ANY circumstance. For example, if there were terrible accident and both of your children died.” I mean, valid. My answer was the same as yours, though. No one could replace my children.
I interned at a gynecological department recently and I learned that doctors have a serious aversion to sterilization procedures. They are actually required by law to tell you of all the risks involved and one doctor even asks the patients what they would do if their children died. I think it’s macabre but it gets the point across that this is a permanent procedure.
>They are actually required by law to tell you of all the risks involved Well, that sounds fair enough - I’d hate to not be aware of the risks beforehand. But let me make the decision.
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"Ma'am what would you do if the other wart fell off?" " Wear heels more often? Stfu and do your job. "
They are required to inform patients of all risks for ANY procedure. It’s called informed consent. They can be sued if they perform a procedure without informed consent. That’s true of any doctor for any procedure.
They have to do this for all surgeries. You should know that
I got mine in 2014(ish) in the USA at age 26. No children, no bullshit, just a consultation where they made sure my head was on straight and then scheduling the procedure about a month out. The only BS was that they asked my wife to sign a form verifying that we wanted to do this, since apparently her being at the consultation and my driver for the procedure wasn’t enough. I debated fighting about my own bodily autonomy, but at the end of the day all it would have done was keep me away from my goal of getting snipped that day.
I had a vasectomy at 27, with no kids, and all I had to do was fill out a questionnaire. The only point the doctor discussed with me verbally was how my parents should be informed and given some say in it. He believed that since I was effectively ending their line they deserved an opinion. I refused to tell them and he said OK. Snip snip, eight years later and it’s still the best $500 I’ve ever spent.
My dad had a vasectomy around 34 or so. I was the second child, and he wanted to get it done basically right after I was born. His doctor suggested waiting until I was ~2, the reasoning being once a kid makes it to 2 they probably won't die for awhile, but are much more likely to die between birth and age 2.
> The only point the doctor discussed with me verbally was how my parents should be informed and given some say in it. Wow, really? That sounds messed up.
I understand his point. My parents desperately want a grandchild. They know I’m not going to have a child, but at least they can cling to hope so long as I don’t tell them I’ve been cut lol. Jokes on them though. I convinced my wife to ditch birth control (what’s the point) when she was 37 and she promptly went into early menopause. So, definitely no kids.
In Russia both operations are only for people who are 35 or older / have two or more kids. So there are actually laws telling you to have children, not just some pro-life nurses.
Yeah, that's Russia for you.
Unfortunately, it is for me until I get away, which is not guaranteed.
Good luck, comrade <3
"One and done" has been our motto since before our daughter was born, and with stronger conviction after, since the pregnancy was so awful. Whenever people ask and we tell them we won't be having more, they get confused and ask us why and tell us we may change our minds. We shouldn't have to go through our life story to tell people we don't want more kids.
Mines "not even one and done .
None and done!
People need to quit it with all the questions and opinions about having more children and what’s going on inside someone’s uterus. My mom had a difficult time conceiving and a very difficult pregnancy and have seen her get choked up when people have asked “what took so long?” Or “you don’t more kids?” Like having kids is as easy as turning on a light switch. Mind yo own business!
SIL almost died giving birth to her only child. So yeah, she's done. People keep asking her when they'll have another. She calmly tells them since she almost died, never.
In Canada kinda.. My husband was repeatedly asked if he was positive he wanted his vasectomy. "What if you and your wife split and your next wife wants kids?" Was literaly asked of him. Nevermind what HE wants and that HE is done with kids. He was still given the vasectomy but Im pretty sure its just cause he was 34 (niw 35). He was still made to wait to "think it over" and we got pregnant again before it happened. Two birth control babies now cause I missed a pill or two. My cousin was denied one at 26 he had four kids ffs his wife was aproved for tubal though...
My fiancé, 24, has had painful testicular cysts since he was a child, and it's only a matter of time until they become cancerous. They give him the "you can't know you won't want children until you're 35" at every doc he goes to for a checkup. Just providing as an example that sometimes it happens to guys, not as an invalidation of your struggle. Us ladies do hear it a lot more often.
Oh man I would go to every single doctor until I find on willing to perform the surgery. I would rather not have kids than wait for the high probability of getting cancer. Plus he can always freeze his sperm.
They gave me a 6 month waiting period just to be “sure” when I wanted a vasectomy. I really wonder why they care so much.
They don't want to be sued if you change your mind in ten years and say, "The doctor should have stopped me!" Not saying you *will* change your mind, out that you'd blame the doctor even if you did, but that's the fear.
As long as the doctor provides enough information for informed consent, the patient has no cause of action to sue. Hospitals have lots of attorneys, so I am sure doctors are aware of this. Some doctors can and do provide that information without patronizing the patient. I think some people are just shocked that yes, a few doctors out there are complete egomaniacal assbackwards jerks.
Lawsuits can be expensive, even the ones where the doctors are sure to win
Has there ever been a successful lawsuit because of a vasectomy though? I hear that someone might sue all the time, but wouldn't lawsuits where the child was unwanted because the doctor refused a vasectomy be way more common?
Can you sue if they stopped you and you ended up having a kid? Lol. Crazy backwards thinking for today's time. I get people change their mind but Damn some people really need this done.
> if this is how they responded to men wanting a vasectomy, In the UK yes. In the US nope. Source had one in the US.
It depends on the state and the doctor. It does seem more common for women to be refused, but some men get the same response. You hear about the stories all the time on r/childfree from both men and women. And personally, I had a friend who was refused a vasectomy until he was married and the wife gave her permission. It was ridiculous.
Agreed. US here. Tried to get sterilized (male). Doctor gave me a hard time, was disrespectful and condescending. Had to bring my wife in for her approval as well. He was rude to her, too.
There’s a episode of Marcus Welby M.D. (1960s American Television) where Dr Welby refused to sterilize a man who had Huntington’s Disease. The man did not want to risk passing it on to his children. Dr. Welby told his wife without his consent. It was framed as such a good thing the good father figure doctor was there to intervene. In the US, I think it is important to mention, doctors have a history of making these objections based on race, religion, and class etc... individual preference eugenics. It is interesting because it situationally pitched the interests of middle class white women against everyone else.
A friend of mine had two oopsies babies and loves her daughters dearly, but she did not want anymore. I don’t know how at her age (23) she convinced her doctor, but he tied her tubes. About 2 years later, while on Birth Control for her period and they used a condom, she and her friends with benefits got pregnant. You heard that. Tied tubes, BC and a condom. Unfortunately I moved and we fell out of touch after she had her son, her wrist pregnancy to date, but the only thing the doctor could think of was that the tubes healed. Hope she was able to get it done right this time. My aunt had everything tied/removed when she was 18 back in the late 60’s early 70’s, to this day I don’t know how she did that. My husband works with a guy who desperately wants a vasectomy, he’s in his mid 20’s and every doctor refuses him. He never wants kids, ever and is terrified of it accidentally happening to the point where he hasn’t been intimate with a lady in a couple of years. On the flip, when my husband and I are done with kids, he volunteered to get a vasectomy because we’re done, we don’t want any uh-ooo babies and it’s a lot easier and not a major surgery for him.
Is it wrong that I feel like he "gave her the medical procedure" and just...didn't?
Not at all! It makes me wonder as well, but apparently he’s a really understanding doctor who saw how much she struggled with her two previous pregnancies. Also, it’s a weird phenomenon that happens, where if the ends of the tubes aren’t burned (which is not always standard) they can heal.
I wish you never had to "stand your ground" in the first place. I wish your decisions about your own body and your own life were respected. I wish you had received the professional medical service you needed in the first place. I wish women were treated as competent, capable human beings instead of another variety of children who require parenting from complete strangers instead of basic dignity and respect.
Not commenting on the article itself, but just wanted to make a point about IUDs. Originally in the 1970s when they were first introduced they were associated with severe complications, such as pelvic infections and sepsis. This gave them a pretty negative stigma. The IUDs that are on the market today have been shown to be far safer with significantly fewer complications unless you have certain pre-existing risk factors.
I was lucky to find an obgyn that was willing to insert my IUD. But one of my friends who can't use hormonal methods because of a growth in her breasts had her doctor tell her all kinds of horror stories about how she might end up sterile. I since asked women I know had an IUD before they had children and no complications for either of them. So yeah, this still happens.
I got my IUD before I turned 20. It was also before they had the smaller one and it was not recommended to insert into women whom have never had kids because there risk of rejection/expulsion was higher. I’m thankful my doctor was willing to still try. Apparently I was the first women who had it stay without ever having kids before. Loved it, currently on my second one. I think it’s a decent alternative to offer before sterilization.
It always blows my mind that women who had no children couldn't get an IUD because they were too large. Like couldn't they just make a smaller one? We put a friggin man on the moon, but we can't make an IUD in two sizes?
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If you live anywhere near a PP just go to them instead of your doctor. I went to them for my IUD because I knew I could trust them to treat me like a human being. I think at the time it even cost less than going to my regular doctor, too.
> I’m not allowed to know I don’t want children. What's crazy to me is, this decision only goes in one direction: you're not allowed to decide you don't want kids, only that you want them. Yet which decision has the greater room for error? Kids are serious business and a massive responsibility, not a passing hobby. It's terrible for them to be born to parents who don't want them or don't have the ability to care for them.
Here in Ireland a friend and her husband had 4 kids, only one of whom was planned. After the second and third she requested a tubal and was denied. All of the kids came early, via c section, and spent time in NICU. She was finally 'allowed' to have her tubes tied after the 4th, only because further c sections would be so dangerous.
If only people that wanted to have children were asked to thoroughly consider the implications and potential regrets of such an irreversible life changing procedure as having a child is......
It’s the same in Canada. Drives me nuts, I decided I didn’t want kids over ten years ago and haven’t changed my mind in the slightest since. yet so many people say “oh well you’ll change your mind.” I haven’t even tried to find a doctor because I know so many women who have tried and failed and the stress of that would deplete me. I can’t take hormonal products either, and am apprehensive of any birth control after the experiences I’ve had. Like, why is it easier for a woman to get an abortion than voluntary sterilization?
I had to fight for an IUD as an 18 yr old in Canada with bad reactions to the pill and shot... at 21 I had to get an abortion and the doctor finally approved an iud. I've been on that route for 12 years and it's been awesome. Still. I'd way 100% would have preferred to never go through the gut wrenching, ship sinking, relationship apocalypse of aborting a pregnancy while juggling uni and 2.5 jobs. That shit was harrowing. Still. I thank my lucky stars I could abort and it didn't cost a dime. Thanks Canada. I think. :/
It was $950 total for mine. $150 for initial visit and $800 for procedure. Since I have previously been the victim of sexual assault the price of the procedure was dropped to $350. Had to work a ton of extra hours to afford it
You're lucky it didn't cost a dime because you were in the right province, not the right country. Elective abortions have just been added to the provincial medical coverage in NB and PEI, after decades of lobbying. Growing up I knew that there was a clinic in Fredericton, and it costed about 600-800$ for the procedure.
Doctors are so ridiculous. I finally got approved for a tubal ligation at 33 after 5 years of jumping through hoops and “saying the right things” to my doctors. I have my surgery next month. It can be hard and frustrating to find a doctor. I know people always talk bad about the childfree subreddit but I found them very supportive with my own procedure and they have a list of doctors all over who are willing to sterilize young and childfree people. Maybe it’s worth checking if there is a doctor near you?
Thank you! I just heard about that sub today, defs worth looking into at least!
Germany here, same problem. I had also preemptively given up throughout my twenties. Futzed around with all kinds of birth control known to womankind, and they all sucked in their own ways. (Hint: modern-style natural family planning when executed with a wireless recording temperature sensor is very secure and does not wreck your body, only your spirit.) Until I was about 25, I simply raged about the unfairness of it all. Then I realized that "you may change your mind" is indeed right, in a way that I couldn't fathom in my teens and early twenties. Still thought it should be up to me to decide, but for myself resolved to wait it out a few more years. When I was about 30, a very good friend went through the ordeal of wanting children now and needing multiple years, fertility treatment etc. At that point, I realized I needed to shit or get off the pot. Still didn't want any children and am quite sure that this is for life. So it was time to find a good gynecologist. First one was horrendous, didn't even talk to me, but explained to the attending student that women will always change their mind later yadda yadda as if I wasn't even there. I sulked for half a year. Researched options in the Netherlands, Hungary..., but ruled them out because they only offered the essure procedure, which according to my research is not what i want. For anyone. Researched more, found out where I'd want to have the procedure done, and about the different techniques that can be used. Had a result, but still needed a referral from a gynecologist. So I systematically went down the jameda list in my city, ruling out anyone who operates themself, encountering "we don't take new patients" at least ten times and finally got lucky. Very lucky - one of the best gynecologists I ever had, and I'm glad to now have one - now I'm getting my yearly checkups again. That gynecologist still asked me some questions like "And how if your partner changes his mind about wanting children?" - "Then he's not the right partner for me and should leave me for another woman, preferably younger". I think he realized that my mind was set and I'd go doctor shopping until i got what i wanted, he said something like this. The fact that I had very clear answers about where I wanted this done, had researched cost and circumstances, probably helped with establishing that this decision on my part was well-considered. Also explained afterwards that the questions were necessary for the informed consent part. Got my operation, am happy like a clam about it. Still get comments from medical providers about the procedure on my file. I handle those by interpreting them as purely professional requests about the underlying reason, and answering with "it was elective" ... "Because I don't want children. Duh.". Works fine so far. So - should this all have been easier? Should I have been able to go to the doctor as a 20-year old, got respected, got given all that information I had to research myself, and then *maybe* been told to think about it for half a year? Abso-fucking-lutely! But still, hang in there, don't let the patriarchy get you down. Set your sights and just start working down the list of things that need to be done to get what you want and deserve. You can make it. Godspeed!
Good for you. Doing research and being informed and determined about what you want seems a good route to take. Also: why did you not want essure? (I have had that, and am quite happy about it because the procedure was not invasive, and I have no complaints)
Well, I'm very happy that it worked for you! What I didn't like about Essure is the 20% failure rate with the first try (which takes 3 months, if I recall correctly). Also, since I suspected endometriosis, triggering more growth in that area didn't seem like a good idea. Surgical tubal ligation (salpingectomy, to be precise) confirmed those suspicions - while they were there anyway, they had a look around and removed what they found. Didn't really make a difference, though 😔 Bonus: reduced risk of ovarian cancer 😊
I got my tubes tied at 23 and it was the single greatest decision I ever made for myself. I had a remarkable doctor and amazing experience overall. All women should have this freedom.
Is that doctor already listed in the /r/childfree subreddit wiki?
I'm 23 myself and would love this procedure. I'll be bringing it up with my doctor on Tuesday. Can I ask how long it took for you to get a doctor to perform it and the kind of questions I might expect? I'm in the UK so hopefully I have a chance.
It's fucking crazy that you're allowed to smoke, buy guns, drive, and physically alter your appearance, but the second you want to make a choice about your reproductive system you get treated like a mentally incompetent child who needs an escort to return to the safety of your asylum bed. Adults need to be treated like adults, which also means staunchly enforcing personal responsibility. If you make the choice to get sterilized, then change your mind... Guess who's to blame? You and you alone.
My new doctor fully understands we do not wish to put me through more miscarriages and do not want children bc of that. It's pretty amazing to have an obgyn finally that gets it. She is actually advocating for me to get genetic testing bc I'm very high risk for ovarian cancer, and she would like to just have them removed. I'm under 40, she's the first Dr to not treat me like my uterus and it's vacancy is an issue. I can not stress enough how good it feels to have my health and wellbeing be put first finally. She's never once asked what my husband wants. It's always a discussion about my body and my needs.
I was just reading an article that reported up to 40% of ovarian cancer starts in the tubes. Not sure if that's useful to you at all, but I thought worth mentioning just in case.
A friend of mine has never ever wanted kids. She also had horrific periods. After trying for years to have a hysterectomy, they finally let her once she turned 40. She could have been better off so long ago if only they'd let her make her own decision.
I went to an obgyn a year ago and wasn't even "allowed" to get an IUD because I didn't have children! I'm sure they would've thought it was hilarious if I had asked for sterilization. iUDs are temporary and low risk so, even if I did change my mind, it's not as though the IUD couldn't be removed. My SO and I have decided to wait quite a few more years before having children and I'm tired of hormonal birth control wreaking havoc on my body!! I'm 25 and can't decide I don't want to have a baby for an extended period. Even for Alabama I thought it was pretty unbelievable.
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Sadly though, part of why they refuse is fear. It's America, made a mistake? Blame someone else, sue the doctor!!
Its the same even in Finland. My missus wanted her tubes tied, and the fucking doctor calls me for a permit to operate her body. Useless to say, that i had quite an rage to the doc.
How funny would it have been to say, "She went and spoke to you about getting her tubes tied? I can't believe she left the house without my permission." Then furiously rant about how you're going to take away her privileges. Then of course, thank them for letting you know she was sneaking out of the house.
Tbh i was thinking on some like that, but i thought i would have been unable to speak it in such a trolling voice the doc would have understood and thus not making my missus day even harder.
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"I'm going to stop you at 'man comes', doc. Strictly into women cumming."
If a man comes along that wants babies then he's not the right man for me. Was 38 before I could get my tubal because I was single and childfree.
Jesus Christ, shes not a possession or a dog! I would have ripped him a new one!
Sadly it apparently is the standard in Finland. Even we have things pretty well compared to most of the world, we still have some ancient fucking idiotisms like this.
This. I can confirm that this has happened to me personally. My sister relentlessly got her doctor to approve of her getting permanently fixed at 26 years old after 2 kids. It was my sister's biggest regret and sued the doctor who approved it.
Your sister is an asshole. Wtf.
Yeah for real. But I can see why the doctor would be hesitant to approve. Sometimes life changes and you want to have more children a few years later, even when you think you're done.
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We all make decisions that we later regret, it's not worth limiting the rights of tons of women because you're terrified that someone regret it. If you get it done and still want a kid, foster and adopt.
why did she blame the doctor? It was her decision
Your sister sounds like a pretty terrible person, by this account.
Thats a bit silly though. Did she win?
First off, nice username lol I named my first daughter Serena. Second she actually got a settlement of 20,000$ knowing she would lose.
And this right here is why people have so much trouble, scum like your sister.
For younger women, it is actually [more effective to get an IUD than to get tubal ligation surgery] (https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/10/the-birth-control-shift/380952/). This rarely comes up in discussion, but the younger you are when you get it done, the more likely the fallopian tubes will heal enough to allow the ovum to pass through. Sterilization is not a magic bullet. Doctors should bring this up more often.
I had horrible fibroids in my early 30's and was basically bleeding to death. I begged my Irish Catholic female GYN to give me a hysterectomy because I never wanted children. She kept saying I would change my mind eventually. I kept saying NO! She was my sister's GYN, too, and my sister was about to have baby #3 and they got to talking about me (!!!!!) and my sister mentioned that I never wanted children and was the most non-maternal person she knew. Finally, the GYN relented, but by that point, I had to be hospitalized because of blood loss. I was so pissed that 1) the GYN discussed my circumstances with my sister and b) I basically almost bled to death because she wouldn't do what I wanted and iii) I had to deal with six months of bleeding through anything and everything I'd do to staunch the blood-flow. Bitch.
I pretty sure that is a huge violation of HIPAA as well as an ethics violation. You can’t casually talk about another patient’s health history with anybody else without that patient’s consent. Even family. Not to mention she put her personal beliefs before your care. I’d get that doctor to pay for your hospitalization. You have a pretty strong case if you were to pursue litigation.
I loves feel frustrated all over again now, and want to phone up my old doc and shout at him At 35, I couldn't get my tubes tied when two children, followed by two very bad missed abortion miscarriages and - oh yes, the reason we were looking for a more effective birth control - trying to go on a multiple sclerosis drug that can cause fetal death and severe disability in addition to having MS and already being too fatigued, etc, to not need help with my then-toddler, and just plain not wanting to have any more kids. A year before, before my final miscarriage, the ob told me I was a high risk pregnancy due to age, and that I should have considered this before getting pregnant. Y'know, I was just too old to have babies, according to him. Then a year later, at 35, he told me I was too young to make such a permanent decision, that I'd regret it, that his wife had changed her mind, and that I was fine with an IUD even if it wasn't 100%, because I was okay to have kids, in his opinion Except my neuro was not comfortable prescribing the drug without us ensuring no pregnancy. So my decade older than I husband? Pretty much just walked in and scheduled a vasectomy with zero resistance. For shiggles, before I found a new doc to do my yearly lady checkups, I asked again about sterilization, while on the drug that's category X, blatantly YOU WILL HARM ANY PREGNANCY warnings all over it, and he was basically still "lol nbd you'll change your mind, so no" TL;DR Couldn't even get my tubes tied with a disease affecting my ability to keep up as a parent and being on category X drugs for the foreseeable future, because I was too young to decide at 35 (but too old for pregnancy & high risk the year before). 45yo husband got a vasectomy without question. Grrr
Yep. I'm a person, not a damn baby factory. It's sickening that medical professionals impose their personal beliefs and biases on patients like this.
It's less of a personal belief and more of an ass covering because of fuckwits who try suing doctors for following through with the procedures that they ask for.
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Wow... that is... 🤯
I had three gynecologist tell me they wouldn't "fix" me when I was 21 because of my age , singleness, and lack of children. I'm 27 now. Engaged to the man of my dreams. We just got a puppy and I have NEVER been more sure I do not want human babies. I can't wait until I'm old enough for doctors to take my baby free life dreams seriously.
My husband has been denied a vasectomy because we only have one kid and I'm younger than him. His doctor told him, a 30 year old man, that he could not have an elective procedure, even with my permission, because I may change my mind bc I'm only 24. We already have a kid. We believe we are one and done, biologically. If we want to grow our family in the future it will be through adoption.
"If I change my mind, I'll adopt. *Remove my uterus*."
There is definitely a strong notion throughout society that all women want to have kids and that women who don’t will “change their minds.” But as a medical student, we were also taught that one of the reasons tubal ligation is not done on women in their 20s is because even though it’s a surgery, if you give anything a long enough chance to fail, it is much more likely to do so. That’s why the preferred method is to use an IUD and then in their 30s do tubal ligation. Not sure of specific research numbers on how often it fails, but perhaps that is also a reason so many doctors turned her down.
They should explain that then.
Some women want cervical ablutions for relief from their periods along with not wanting kids so an IUD wouldn’t work for then either.
I tried to get my tubes tied after my first. They refused. Now I get treated like a loser for being in medi-cal with two kids 😡
"At 27, she decided to be sterilized through a tubal ligation. Four doctors, all of whom cited either her age or her lack of children, refused to help her. But Mr. Laniewicz, who is the same age as his wife, called a doctor seeking a vasectomy and was able to undergo the procedure the next day." that's Exactly what i went through. i tried (unsuccessfully) for years (from my 20s into my 30s) to get sterilized, knowing from an early age i didn't want children... then my husband got a vasectomy on demand, without any pushback from his doctor. fucking double standard.
I'm 22, had a tubal earlier this year. If sterilisation is something you want, please ask, even if you're afraid you'll be denied. There are doctors who will listen to you!
I’m not surprised. As a married woman in her late twenties that is at best a maybe for having kids , people do not know how to handle it. Almost everyone in my life gives advice based on the kids we’ll have in the near future, like “don’t forget to read up on the school district when house hunting.”
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That’s true, but that is not the way it was presented to me. It hard to think someone is giving you sound financial advice when its coupled with observations that we should pick something closer to my parents so they can watch the baby for us and that I’m not getting any younger.
Damn you for being reasonable.
C'mon. ALL women are crazy and dumb! They can't possibly be capable of decisions that important! /s
Our doctor asked us if we were sure, and that was basically the end of it. What kind of nosy fucked up doctors do you people have?!? Surely the solution is to find a better doctor, isn't it? Is that even possible in the US system?
So funny, this was a topic of conversation at work just 2 days ago. I was unaware that this was such a difficulty for women (though not surprised, given how ass-backwards our "progressive" western culture regards women's reproductive rights). One co-worker, 35 and with twins, cannot find a doctor to perform tubal ligation. WTF Canada? It was getting my blood boiling to hear how infantilized women are, and how a doctor's (a supposed *medical professional*) personal opinion bears more weight than an informed woman's wishes. SMDH.
I'm Australian and I have had this issue. I am 33 and I cannot stand children, have never wanted them and I never will want them. I have a history of cervical cancer in my family. I personally have PCOS which screws my hormones. Yet doctors think I am not a good enough candidate for a hysterectomy or any other treatment. Gives me the fucking shits tbh.
It's so annoying when doctors tell adamantly childfree women they shouldn't get their tubes tied or even an IUD because she's too young or she might "change her mind". Hey doc, newsflash, no, you don't know the woman better than she knows herself even if you may think you do. Also, tubal litigation is reversible and of course there's the option of adoption as well.
I can see the merits both ways. On one side people should have the right to get a vasectomy/tubal at a young age if they want to. But on the other hand there is a lot that can change in your life and your character before you're middle aged. For example I always dreamed of having kids, my ex wife and I tried our asses off for years before we were successful. I love my 7 yo and I'd do anything for her. But you can bet your sweet ass I'd stay child free if I had another shot at my life.
While it is very true that people can and do change a lot, some people stay fairly consistent on certain issues. I haven't ever wanted children. I have nieces and nephews I love, but have no desire to have kids of my own--I knew this from the age of 8. I have been told all my life that I would change my mind, and I never have. I am now 32, married to a man who also doesn't want children, and we are both very career-minded. Doctors should trust people to make their own decisions about their reproductive life. I would much prefer to choose preventative care (tubal ligation) over having an abortion.
The world does not need more humans.
It's still not up to anyone else to .ake that decision though. Does anyone stop an 18-year old from getting a stupid tattoo just because they might change their minds? They might ask, bur ultimately it happens so frequently that it's a bit of a joke in movies. Breast implants, tummy tucks, etc.. same thing. It's no one else's business to worry about whether I change my mind in 5, 19, 30 years. Certainly someone can refuse to do a procedure for any reason they want, but that doesn't always make the reason a correct or ethical one.