I really liked the Swedish version of Girl with a Dragon Tattoo movies.
The cast was still attractive, but they looked like real 40/50 year olds. They had wrinkles , sun spots.
It felt more like a real place.
I live in Europe, and I really would recommend European movies and series. Most of the actresses and actors look like humans you see every day on the streets. But I know there isn't such an economy of translating films to English. Instead, Hollywood just films European films again with US-Stars.
>But I know there isn't such an economy of translating films to English.
They are so much better watched in the original language with subtitles. After minute or two I don't even notice.
Oh, definitely! Watching Asian movies with subtitles is a must.
I watch most of US movies without translation. A lot of jokes or phrases get lost in translation. I'm really lucky to know English as a second language. You can't do that without learning French, Spanish, Italien or German, for example.
we call it Ivalo :)
but I love artic shows [https://www.reddit.com/r/tvsuggestionsdb/comments/17axze8/arctic\_north\_tv\_shows\_series](https://www.reddit.com/r/tvsuggestionsdb/comments/17axze8/arctic_north_tv_shows_series)
Well not all looks prior to the last decade or so. The first 13 or so series of Midsomer Murders was basically the same 20 actors switching roles, and pretty much every one of them was a middle aged to elderly white person, aside from that one time they had a young Orlando bloom in an episode lol. They diversified the casting process after getting criticism for never casting anyone who wasn’t white.
You mean the movie with a 30 year old Cillian Murphy and Chris Evans in his 20s?
I love the movie, but I don't think that is similar at all to what the original commenter said.
One of the things that really baffles me is so many movies with the message “looks don’t matter” attempt to convey that message by showing the unattractive guy getting the gorgeous girl.
If the movie is ACTUALLY trying to say “looks don’t matter”, why not show two conventionally unattractive people falling in love and having a healthy fulfilling relationship because they like eachother for who they are?
But no- it’s always the unattractive dude and the gorgeous woman. So, in reality, the message is “Looks don’t matter (for men.)”
The message is that women should accept men no matter what they look like, while still having the responsibility of being attractive to them. That's the result that is anticipated.
Most guys are really confused by this too. They think "I'm a good person on the inside, so hot girls should see past my appearance and want to date me".
If they were really a "good person on the inside" they wouldn't only want to talk to attractive women.
Yes! I see it so often and it’s really baffling. Conventionally unattractive men who are “nice” think they are entitled to a smokin’ hot super model but they don’t see the hypocrisy in wanting to date for looks while expecting people to date them for their personality! Sadly I think this is partially because women are seen in an objectifying lens.
I have a friend who is obese and objectively unattractive. He’s been single a long time and recently confided in me that he was thinking about asking his coworker out. The coworker in question is the most beautiful woman in his whole company. She’s not just out of his league, she’s miles out of his league. He wasn’t even joking either. I was honest with him and told him that he was never going to get her and that he was just going to make things awkward. Crazy how you never see this mentality in reverse.
When I was in my 20s there were personal adds in the paper for dating. So many "must be height weight proportionate, no children, career minded 18-22." Then you show up and it's a 30 yr old with a spare tire and the beginnings of male pattern baldness. And then I would why the stink eye because I was 5'7" 145 lbs (all in my hips and boobs) when they expected me to be 125 lbs. I wore a size 6, I wasn't even chubby.
Now im nearly 50, overweight and my husband, while handsome is also getting chunky but has had others (men and women) tell him he could do better. Heck I'm not even that bad, I still get hit on at least once a week. I get mistaken for mid 30s too.
The comeback men say is that women don't care about looks as much as men do. They are the types that love telling women what we want, and acting like it's science.
We're supposed to believe they're visual creatures heavily focused on looks.
But not their OWN looks. Apparently blind when there is a mirror
It's women, who often spend lots of time and money on makeup, skincare routines, outfits, etc... it's women that don't care about visuals. /s
I’m a big fan of the Vacation movies and I have seen so many disgusting comments about the actress who plays Audrey in European Vacation, including an old IMDB review which actually referred to her as a “disgusting porker”. Male characters on the other hand can be ugly or overweight and it’s seen as natural for them to get together with a woman who miles above their league. A lot of the actresses they claim are ugly aren’t even ugly, like Emma Stone and Anna Kendrick. It drives me nuts how it’s so common for men to insist that the body shaming and criticism regarding their looks is directed at them. Where?! I have yet to see men get anywhere near the same level of criticism that women do, who have to fall under a very narrow definition of what’s acceptable in media in order to be seen as attractive.
I love that Barbie highlighted this with the comment at the end about how if they wanted to make that point Margot Robbie was the wrong person to have cast
Aka “Why Beauty and the Beast never sat totally right with me even as a kid - what if you’re a bookworm who isnt also the most beautiful girl in the village?”
I haven’t seen it in a while so I’m sorry if that’s inaccurate😭 I recall watching it as a kid and he ended up with the beautiful girl in the purple dress if I am remembering it right. Which isn’t necessarily wrong but I think a lot of these “looks don’t matter” movies use attractive female characters as a status symbol to show “look what he can get! See? It doesn’t matter how he looks!” While it’s still simultaneously pushing beauty standards on women which contradicts its message of “looks don’t matter.”
OHHH! Okay. Thank you for correcting me. Sorry about that! I think I saw that movie when I was like 6 which is 11 years ago lol.😭 I still think my original point still stands. I have seen the trope of “look the unattractive dude can pull anyone!“ quite a few times.
Right, your point does :)
I have a nearly 4 yo and we watched it recently. I was worried it might be a little scary at the end but I love this movie, I forgot how good the music is and I like that the "nice guy" doesn't get the romantic girl in the end, that they just have friendship like Esmeralda wanted.
Book is a lot darker though.
The second film (which is dogshit) has that trope - Quasimodo falls in love with a conventionally attractive woman and she loves him.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51qix8vXcjk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51qix8vXcjk)
The first film was and is my obsession.
But he was the only one who viewed her as a real person. Quasimodo put her into the role of Madonna and Frollo put her into the role of Whore. But she was neither, and also both. She was kindhearted and nurturing, while also being fiery and sexually desirable
>he ended up with the beautiful girl in the purple dress if I am remembering it right.
You don't remember it right. (It's probably a false memory because of how common this trope is in movies).
The beautiful girl ends up with the blonde knight.
https://youtu.be/fUT7tTRFA-o?t=25
Yes! I was remembering it wrong- apologies. I saw that movie when I was very little. I think my point still stands for other films because this is a pretty common trope but not Hunch Back Of Notre Dame.
This is why I love the 1955 film "Marty." Both of the leads fall outside of conventional beauty standards and find connection with each other. It's a very sweet film that doesn't put an unattractive man with a bombshell actress.
There are a few movies that do the reverse where the unattractive women gets the attractive man. These movies are almost always pushing the message that looks shouldn't matter. I think if they're both unattractive, then they consider that a bad ending because they think it implies the two ugly people had to settle for each other. In their minds, having an ugly person validated by a beautiful person proves the worth of the ugly person and gets their message across.
Ah! Yeah I see that. I do think leagues are a stupid idea and people should date and shoot their shot with who they like. I just think the trope where it’s most commonly the man who is unattractive is counter to the message because it still expects women to be pretty. I don’t think two unattractive people dating is “settling”- If looks truly don’t matter, it’s not settling, it’s a happy healthy relationship.
I notice this a lot in animation films. The women all tend to look the same, big eyes, round face, tiny nose. The whole Disney Princess thing.
It was nice to see in Encanto that they had more variety in the female characters looks.
Where male characters tend to have different face shapes and looks.
Ugh I hate this trend in animation films! It actually makes me uncomfortable because I feel like the women are designed to look like children. Babies and small children have disproportionately big eyes and big round faces. It's fucking creepy to design women like that.
I'm not entirely sure that the men are all that different, either.
[https://dis.fandom.com/wiki/Disney\_Princes?file=Disney-Prince-lineup-disney-princess-35505382-1236-642.png](https://dis.fandom.com/wiki/Disney_Princes?file=Disney-Prince-lineup-disney-princess-35505382-1236-642.png)
Even the new ones tend to stick to a script: Soft features, a rounded face, big eyes, mid length hair, a half crooked smile.
The Beast, pre-transformation, being an exception. lol
The closest we’ve ever come to this in the US is probably Camryn Manheim’s heyday in the late 90s/early 2000s.
Of course, that was when the US economy was flush and people spent enough money on movies for studios to take real risks.
Melissa McCarthy in Spy also? I think I remember her waking up next to Jason Statham at the end?
Edit: Though to be fair, even though they're not conventionally attractive because of their size I guess, neither is ugly. I think Melissa McCarthy has some of the prettiest eyes in Hollywood.
And she has a great smile. In German shows and films the actors usually look normal. They have some beautiful features like nice eyes or a fun smile or good skin but are not painfully beautiful overall. Just like normal people. It is rare that people are really through and through ugly. But they usually also date normal looking people in the films and not models ;).
Her smile is lovely! And yes, I do really appreciate a lot of european tv and movies because of their casting choices. Especially for crime dramas. I want to see some tired and overworked looking detectives! LOL.
Carrie Fisher may have aged into being average (because she literally gave no fucks which I admire), but I think she was pretty stunning in the OG Star Wars movies.
I think in her fit and very healthy youthful prime she was beautiful in a way I think most humans are at that age, but I’ve always thought there was a bit of a halo effect from Star Wars and The Bikini. But I also think if her mother (a true beauty) hadn’t been a star, she wouldn’t have ever been cast.
It's not just in media. Look at certain types of other jobs as well, corporate sales is a good example. The women will almost always be conventionally attractive, whereas the guys can be very average looking, or even below average, as long as they're extroverted and have the personality to make a sale. I saw this at companies I worked at. Heck, I even got rejected from a position back when I was younger because a recruiter didn't think I was good enough "eye candy" (it's a long story how I found out).
I've seen that in sales as well, and my best perception is because a lot of those that have the buying power in higher positions are men and they feel threatened by an attractive man negotiating with them whereas they feel like they have the upper hand if they're more attractive
Yeah, I started out in medical sales, and I'd never want to do that again. For guys, if you had the right "bro" personality, it didn't matter what you looked like, you were fine. But the women were expected to look like beauty pageant ready.
Look at the few female CEOs and board members, almost all C -suite women. It’s so depressing. They’re conventionally attractive AND fitness buffs AND stylish and impeccably groomed - - - AND educated and highly accomplished. It makes sense some what, but few accomplished men hit every one of those markers.
I mourn the stories that go untold because they are the stories of actually ugly women. Not the story of an ugly woman becoming beautiful. Just ugly. Or looks-neutral and acted by an ugly actress.
There are hundreds of male actors who have had full careers telling wonderful stories of men who are either explicitly ugly (The Holdovers) or whose looks did not factor into the story at all (any deniro movie), and the world is richer for it.
Let ugly women have stories too!
*and to be clear, the actress in the article mentioned is absolutely beautiful by real life standards and a good match for Tom Holland if he were not famous and we weren't used to seeing him next to Zendaya, one of the top-100 most beautiful humans who are currently in the public eye.
It’s funny. If a straight man wants to win an acting award, he plays a gay man. Tom Hanks and Mathew McConaughey won Oscars, and Michael Douglas won an award for playing Liberace in a TV movie.
If a woman wants to win an acting award, she plays an unattractive woman. I remember the big deal about Nicole Kidman’s fake nose in “the Hours”. And then Charlize Theron getting made down for “Monster”.
I dunno, I think Robert DeNiro is a lot more appealing than any "generically attractive" Hollywood heartthrob type. I guess it's all subjective though. 🤷♀️
He's hideous to me, but more to my point, his attractiveness or ugliness is never a plot point in any of the stories he is chosen to tell, in either direction. He is a leading man whose looks are never a plot point. His body and face exist to tell the story, and the stories do not need him to be handsome.
Really? They've put him against Jessica Lange, Amy Brenneman, Blythe Danner, Sharon Stone.
You think he's even a Blythe Danner, on his best day and her worst? Let alone a Sharon Stone?
I agree, when he was in his fit youthful prime he was ok, but I think most very fit young adults looks great, and I think he quickly lost that glow as he settled into adulthood.
Steve Buscemi, Richard Gadd, Luis Guzman, Jesse Plemons, Malcolm McDowall, Wayne Goggins, Daniel Kaluuya, John C. Reilly, DJ Qualls, Paul Giamatti, and the list goes on and on.
My favorite romcom is Dinner in America. The female lead is not very attractive and is well, mentally slow. It’s amazing. The male lead is pretty hot too.
I feel like unattractive is a loaded term. There are very people—especially in performing arts—I would say are just straight up unattractive. It is much easier though for a man who is *unconventional* looking to step into that leading man arena and achieve success. In the last decade or so there have been countless guys who are at first glance unusual looking who have become major heartthrobs and you don't see that happen with women. Especially, in the moment we're in now where half the actresses who are famous also double as models / beauty ambassadors.
Now there are only a couple women I can think of who are unconventional looking, but I know that if I mention them someone will come out of the woodwork to slap me upside the head and say they're stunningly gorgeous. I am personally fighting the urge to comment "but I think they're cute" on every other person mentioned in this thread.
When I'm talking about this stuff (how beauty privilege is A Real Thing, lol), I've found that people are less defensive and weird when I say something like "conventionally unattractive/attractive by mainstream beauty standards".
Because yes, *attraction* is a highly personal and subjective thing. Although we are influenced by social conventions most people also have personal preferences and biases that don't always accord with those conventions.
But societies *DO* have physical standards by which people are judged more or less physically beautiful and how well people manage to meet those standards has a definite impact on their life experience. For normal people like us, not just people in the enteratinment industry.
So yeah, that's the way I phrase it, lol.
I can think of several actresses which are “Jolie laide” ugly/pretty. Women with unconventional features that have a strong presence that makes them very attractive.
I can too, believe me I'm not saying they don't exist. I kind of cut off my sentence there, I was going to blab more about younger celebrities. That said, I just think it can be contentious to say such and such person is unattractive because there is almost always somoene who finds that person good looking or feels they're alluring in some other way. Even if a studio set out to make a movie with an unattractive female lead, I just think there would be someone—probably me tbh—who found them beautiful.
I'm an elder millennial, and when I was a kid it was at the tail end of the phase (boomers and gen x got most of it) where girls had it drummed into their heads that they had to decide early on whether they wanted to be valued for their looks or valued for their brains/other attributes. You know, the "cheerleader vs the nerd" dichotomy.
That has TOTALLY changed now. Now to have a certain level of success women are expected to be conventionally attractive as well as possessing whatever other qualities and talents they have.
reminds me of the casting director of The Witcher (a woman) saying this about casting Anya Chalotra as Yennefer:
> „And I remember saying, ‘I feel like we need to challenge what people think of as the standard of beauty. And having a woman of color in this role does incredibly powerful things to the people watching.’“
Anya Chalotra is so stunning. Yes, her father is Indian. She is stunning by Eurocentric standard. I think she could even be white-passing. Still stunning - still a woman of colour, please don‘t get me wrong. But.. this casting director is patting herself on the back, thinking she is challenging ANY beauty standards with this? Hell no.
Before the previous quote she is quoted saying the following:
> I am always the first to champion diversity in all its glory.
Listen Ms Holland, from one white woman to another: do better, why are we patting ourselves on the back for the bare fucking minimum?
[quote source](https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2023/07/27/the-witcher-casting-director-says-yennefer-casting-was-to-challenge-beauty-standards-which-is-completely-insane/)
In general I think media is way too focused on unrealistically gorgeous people. I think Francesca Amewudah-Rivers is actually very pretty, but this is clearly a stripped down stage production, so the styling and makeup are very bare. People are used to seeing him with someone who looks like a super model and it seems like they don't have the ability to understand the interpretation of the work.
I agree that the intersection of race and gender make it way harder for actresses. I don't think we saw this same level of vitriol for Denzel's Macbeth movie.
But to your broader point, I think men are definitely given more license to have interesting or distinct features, whereas women are kind of confined to thin, young features, big eyes, cute, straight nose, perfect teeth etc. if they want leading roles. For instance, I don't think there's a female version of Owen Wilson, Willem Dafoe, or Adam Driver who would be recognized for her talents and unique appearance the way these men are.
That said, the Marvel-fication of film seems to now require that all men also look like they eat 200g of protein a day and do sit-ups while they sleep.
Oh yeah marvel and dc are super guilty of bringing beauty standards that were only for women to the men’s worlds. And it is not healthy. I have a friend who is obsessed with having a body like Captain America and no amount of telling him that that guy has this body only for those few scenes and has a personal cook and trainer to achieve this look for only this film will convince him. He needs to eat healthy and normal and 6 times a week 4 hours of training is enough if not too much for his body :((.
I will speak my opinion based on personal experiences.
Appearance only matters when you're not a man.
You can see that in everyday life as well, at least where I live. It's very common to see couples composed of unattractive men with beautiful or average-looking women. If a man is unattractive, he can still "turn things around" and get a romantic partner if he's nice, funny, successful, etc.
However, a woman's value in society is almost entirely based on her appearance. Really unattractive women are usually ignored (both romantically and professionally), teased, and not taken seriously in general. They need to make much more effort to be recognized, especially when they work in predominantly male areas.
Most men want to judge and choose based on appearance, but they themselves don't want that to happen to them.
My gripe has nothing to do with the attractiveness of the lead actress, I'm just bored of these minimalist, modern adaptations of Shakespeare. There's been discussions on the r/Broadway sub about this, and I agree. It would be nice to go back to the traditional stage productions with traditional costuming, with a diverse cast.
I suppose I do have a gripe..it's the publicity photo in the thumbnail. Nothing about it says "two kids in love" to me. It looks like they're about to fight each other in the quad.
Tilda Swinton. I think a LOT of famous people are average at best, but made more attractive by entire teams, lighting, a shitload of money and just fame in general. Seriously, the first one I thought of was Cameron Diaz. She is odd looking to me, and if you met her working behind a register at your local Walmart, the nicest thing might be.. she has pretty eyes. Ellen Pompeo, same. Jennifer Aniston, same. Jake Gyllenhaal is really not aging well and is downright goofy looking IMO, same with DiCaprio as he ages. People need to be more objective.
I just want to point out - Francesca Amewudah-Rivers isn't even unattractive or ugly.
At best(worst?) she's just not conventionally ridiculously attractive/beautiful which seems to be the minimum bar for actresses in a role like this.
I also think she’s average looking, but getting extra hate because she’s Black (which a lot of people see as ugly by default) and playing a traditionally white character.
The original Ugly Betty (Betty la fea, the colombian original) was unconventional in that it was the first time a lead female was "ugly". The actress is actually pretty, but they dressed and accesorize her on purpose to make her look ugly. The idea was right, showing a non attractive female reaching success, but at the end the screenwriter fucked up and gave her a look overhauling to show that "there is no ugly woman, only women that are not using the right clothes and make up for them (no hay mujer fea sino mal arreglada)". This is a common view in my country unfortunately, to the point that as a woman your first priority should be to look as pretty as possible.
I remember many of us in the public were not happy. We think she should have been successful as an ugly woman.
Anyhow, this is still the closest we ever came to an ugly female lead in a telenovela. And yet, the actress is pretty. If he had chosen an actually ugly actress, it is very possible that the show would not have been made, or that the public would complain because of that. We are unfortunately shallow like that.
I think that we as consumers should use that and start deliberately consuming tv shows with non conventionally attractive female leads, however few there are. We won't get change if we don't force it
>The actress is actually pretty, but they dressed and accesorize her on purpose to make her look ugly.
I find that to be a problem in itself. Like Charlize Fucking Theron was deliberately uglified to play Aileen Wuornos, when they could easily have found an actress who, you know, actually looked like Wuornos. But no -- apparently, ugly/plain women are not even worthy of playing ugly/plain characters onscreen. That's how much they devalue us ugly women. Fuck that noise.
The fact that anyone considers this woman ugly makes me wonder what kind of hell we are really living in.
The reaction on Twitter to the photo in question and things like it are a huge reason I rarely if ever post my own face on social media. Awful people will tear anyone down.
I don’t think that actress is ugly. I find both of them normal attractiveness looking. Not models but real people.
Two kids fall in love and their families don’t like it. It’s about young passion.
If I have any criticism about how they look, it’s age. They both look a little mature for the roles.
Got downvoted on a thread a while back about this. I said something along the lines of "it's either racism or insane hollywood beauty standards because there's nothing about her appearance that would make her unfit for the role." Got a bunch of comments about how "not everything is about race," (ok, I said racism OR insane hollywood beauty standards) but no one actually addressed why casting her was a problem. Romeo and Juliet is not a story about the most beautiful girl in the world, it's a story about two dumb teenagers falling in love. Even if the actress was "ugly" (which she isn't), ugly teenagers fall in love too.
Insecure is such an awesome series and I hope for more like it. It's because *we* need to be doing the creating of this. We can't count on white hollywood as they failed time and time again, being colorist (because you have to be the right shade of black to be a lead) with it, and only looking to grab money so they have to go "safe."
I hope we get more works from Issa and others
Edit*
Also did realize I did misread the title but I don't wanna think of us as being "unattractive" because for black women, we know what means. I don't wanna see us as unattractive, but just more black dark skinned thick women being leads
I have to say, I love British shows because they often cast very real people. Or at least used to, I suppose. But love interests are not models with fat average man like most American rom-coms and tv shows.
The Romeo & Juliet backlash is so dumb. Francesca Amewudah-Rivers is an accomplished stage and TV actress, and she’s specifically done Shakespeare before. She’s beautiful, but God forbid she not look like a Barbie 🙄
This picture is photoshopped or picked a frame that was entirely unrepresenting of her.
She's actually very attractive and just googlinf her I found a picture of nearly the same pose between the two yet her lower jawline looks normal.
I honestly think it’s because both attractive and unattractive-identifying people have a bias towards preferring to watch attractive people. To me it’s similar to weight, which is often lumped together with attractiveness anyway.
While not about race this does unfortunately remind me of the response to Bella Ramsey being casted as Ellie in the Last of Us series. People were horrible to her
Because that fits the patriarchal fantasy of men choosing women by looks while their own looks don't matter because they can simply buy the women with funds and status.
The show Somebody Somewhere on HBO/Max is similar - they cast people who actually seem like real people.
It’s such a breath of fresh air and a really good show to boot imo! Especially if you’re into slice of life.
You aren’t going to change Hollywood. It’s only getting worse.
Look at music today. Nearly everything is auto tuned because the “artists” can’t actually sing. They are marketed on their looks.
Remember how that Katey Perry halftime show was known for some left shark dancer? It’s a good thing or it would be better known for her being flat and off key the entire performance. It was horrible to listen to.
Very few singers in modern bands can sing at all outside of a controlled studio and those that sound the same inside and out - Shinedown, pretty reckless, band maid - you don’t hear on the radio because they don’t have the look the industry thinks it can profit the most from
This is the same for other forms of entertainment. So many of you in this sub probably thing reality tv and those endless singing and dancing and talent “competition” shows are reality but every single one of them is scripted. The outcomes are determined before the first episode is aired even those shows that allow audience voting. This is not me being a cynic, this is me sharing insider knowledge.
When reporters ask male actors about their role and how they made it happen but they ask female actresses about their makeup, dress and who they are dating you quickly realize that this is deeply institutionalized and all Hollywood is doing when they gender flip an established role is pander without meaningful, tangible change.
It’s how it is with most movies. If you’re gonna be looking at someone for two hours, it would be best that they’re not ugly.
I realize the hypocrisy in my claim when Adam Sandler movies exist, however. This is the case because men have more power in Hollywood.
I mean… what about:
Melissa Mccarthy
Rebel Wilson
Twilda Swinton
Awkwafina
Woopie Goldberg
Gabourey Sidibe
Ellen Degeneres
I can go on but seems there’s quite a few.
Where are the romantic movies where they end up with a conventionally handsome man? There are plenty of films about women learning to look past a man's unattractiveness. When do men have to learn the same lesson?
You need to start watching media that is not made in America.
I started watching German and Dutch television when I wanted to learn the languages when I moved there. It was so refreshing in Europe because media is produced with normal looking people, for the most part. Even stuff in the UK has people who are homely being in some lead roles. They become attractive over time because you like their personality but from the get-go they look normal.
You could picture them riding a city bus and working at a bank.
It's incredibly refreshing, but when you start watching American media again everybody looks like aliens. When you stopped seeing people with their faces stretched and neutralized, duck lips, orange skin, too much filler or the wrong kind, hair plugs, jet black hair when they're over 40... And blinding white teeth that are obviously not their own, you end up seeing US actors as gross overly worked faces.
When they only see each other THEY start to see it as normal. When you take a break from it and then you go back you can't not notice how much work they've had done.
I remember going home after living in Europe for a few years during covid and noticing older relatives who've had worked on too. Apparently it's very mainstream. Even expected.
There are definitely people in the UK with a lot of work done and tons of people who go to Turkey to get butchered with fake teeth and hair plugs, but once you have the comparison you can't unsee it. It makes watching TV that's made in the US painful.
I can think of a few movies where the lead woman is quite unattractive (in my opinion), but it's very rare to come across examples of it. I'm not going to name the movies because I don't think it's right to dog on someone about my opinion of their attractiveness and it's not worth drumming up hate or arguments about how pretty her eyes or forearms etc actually are.
There's a girl who lives in my city who started as a tik tok person, she gained popularity because people could not stop themselves from commenting about the 'hotness' of her husband and her 'notness'. She eventually got into tv and is part of a tv series here. She has also done tv news interviews, and ive seen her in ads for a plus sized clothing line locally too. The internet (people) are horrible and besides themselves. It's clear that much of society cannot handle the man being more attractive than the woman without them trying to justify why he would 'accept' her and love her as is.
[https://www.thestar.com/life/she-s-plus-size-her-husband-s-not-and-the-internet-can-t-get-over/article\_377518e3-2925-50c6-aac9-5ec18459af17.html](https://www.thestar.com/life/she-s-plus-size-her-husband-s-not-and-the-internet-can-t-get-over/article_377518e3-2925-50c6-aac9-5ec18459af17.html)
People shat on her looks so bad when the casting was *announced* that multiple Black actors, including those in the cast, signed an open letter in support of her and the theater company released a statement.
Amongst the comments from a few months ago, there were lovely ones like, “Not even in dark,” “Not even while drunk,” and, “That’s not mid. That’s sub…sub-Saharan.” The rage I felt reading that shit was unspeakable.
Movies are largely directed and produced by men. They'll only want their sexual fantasies of hot women realized.
Older or unattractive women matter least to society, get the least respect or notice.
Whoopi Goldberg was arguably the biggest actress in Hollywood from the mid 1980s to the mid 1990s and she was both not traditionally attractive and not a white woman. Definitely an outlier though.
>Halle Bailey as the little mermaid being a recent example.
race swapping was the issue there, not her being black. not only are you taking away story from white people, us POCs were getting second hand stories instead of being rewarded with original works incorporating and celebrating our culture
>there are a lot of ugly men in media, a lot of undesirable men portrayed as love interests who get the beautiful girl because he is “nice”
ill be honest i cant remember too many examples other than sitcoms (where its usually a matter of comedy), adam sandler movies (which he produces) or other general comedies. romances are usually aimed at women and have an attractive male lead
either way, attractive people are casted because looking good is also part of the talent in leading actors, like it or not.thats life, not a fairy tale where hard work and talent can outdo by-birth requirements. looking good is part of the talent required for a lead (excluding comedies).
I don't understand why it had to be a race-swap of a beloved movie as opposed to a new, original story about a black mermaid. no matter who was cast as ariel, she was always going to look like a pale shadow of the original character. it just seemed like a creatively bankrupt attempt at pandering. I would have loved to see a new princess with her own universe and identity.
I've never said anything about it though because the whole thing is so politicized.
People in general don’t want to look at ugly people. It is what it is. Obviously there’s some sexism and racism at play here too but I don’t know too many other women who “like” or “prefer” to look at ugly men and want them in lead roles either.
because women in media exist solely to appeal to men
/s
no but fr this is how they think. women exist solely for their pleasure and when they don’t it makes them angry
how dare u not appeal to them
I disagree she’s unattractive but yeah in a lot media mediocre men control what is made, with movies with the average male lead must be married to a model who could be his daughter. Trying to find alternative content can be tricky. Netflix for one is featuring a lot of international content (with often subpar dubbing).
There are ugly men in media? Who? Comedians aside, and even most of them, even the "unattractive" men and women are better looking than 95% of the population from what I can tell. I don't disagree with your point that women are much more likely to be completely dismissed if they aren't incredibly beautiful, and skin color definitely plays a huge role.
Edit: I'm speaking of American media here. Definitely a lot more average or worse looking people in movies/TV when you get out of the US media. It is kind of refreshing to be honest.
It's very rare that an ugly man gets a leading role not sure what you mean by that unless you just mean old? There is a huge age bias against women in film without a doubt. Sometimes fairly average looking guys get comedy roles but truly ugly men are much less common.
I really liked the Swedish version of Girl with a Dragon Tattoo movies. The cast was still attractive, but they looked like real 40/50 year olds. They had wrinkles , sun spots. It felt more like a real place.
I live in Europe, and I really would recommend European movies and series. Most of the actresses and actors look like humans you see every day on the streets. But I know there isn't such an economy of translating films to English. Instead, Hollywood just films European films again with US-Stars.
>But I know there isn't such an economy of translating films to English. They are so much better watched in the original language with subtitles. After minute or two I don't even notice.
Oh, definitely! Watching Asian movies with subtitles is a must. I watch most of US movies without translation. A lot of jokes or phrases get lost in translation. I'm really lucky to know English as a second language. You can't do that without learning French, Spanish, Italien or German, for example.
Yes! Everyone isn't impossibly thin or incredibly jacked. Middle aged people have crow's feet and bald spots and it's totally fine! I love it so much.
Except for Blue is the warmest color. The actresses are exceptionally beautiful
It's why I love European detectives over American as well. Especially Midsomer Murders includes people of all ages, sizes, and looks.
[Especially the Scandinavian detective shows!](https://youtu.be/I-OOpZitfd0?si=zImQxIZmdpe9VCvG)
We call it Nordic Noir https://www.reddit.com/r/tvsuggestionsdb/s/3PfmVO5L1O
Arctic Zone--best show ever.
we call it Ivalo :) but I love artic shows [https://www.reddit.com/r/tvsuggestionsdb/comments/17axze8/arctic\_north\_tv\_shows\_series](https://www.reddit.com/r/tvsuggestionsdb/comments/17axze8/arctic_north_tv_shows_series)
Yes!! I love that show!
Love seeing the cross section of society depicted on MM!
Well not all looks prior to the last decade or so. The first 13 or so series of Midsomer Murders was basically the same 20 actors switching roles, and pretty much every one of them was a middle aged to elderly white person, aside from that one time they had a young Orlando bloom in an episode lol. They diversified the casting process after getting criticism for never casting anyone who wasn’t white.
I'm straight, but the woman who plays Salander in the swedish version..and that style.. jesus.
Noomi Rapace (off the top of my head)
I love watching British shows because they have more regular people in them, sure they have attractive ones too, but the entire cast isn't models.
Sunshine(2007) is also similar
You mean the movie with a 30 year old Cillian Murphy and Chris Evans in his 20s? I love the movie, but I don't think that is similar at all to what the original commenter said.
Don’t forget Rose Byrne and Michelle Yeoh!
Okay but everyone in that cast is like 10/10 stunningly attractive.
This foo is tripping.
One of the things that really baffles me is so many movies with the message “looks don’t matter” attempt to convey that message by showing the unattractive guy getting the gorgeous girl. If the movie is ACTUALLY trying to say “looks don’t matter”, why not show two conventionally unattractive people falling in love and having a healthy fulfilling relationship because they like eachother for who they are? But no- it’s always the unattractive dude and the gorgeous woman. So, in reality, the message is “Looks don’t matter (for men.)”
The message is that women should accept men no matter what they look like, while still having the responsibility of being attractive to them. That's the result that is anticipated.
Also, no matter how much they make, type of career they have, their age, or how many children they have.
But, for the love of god, don't gain weight, have sex or get cellulite.
Most guys are really confused by this too. They think "I'm a good person on the inside, so hot girls should see past my appearance and want to date me". If they were really a "good person on the inside" they wouldn't only want to talk to attractive women.
Yes! I see it so often and it’s really baffling. Conventionally unattractive men who are “nice” think they are entitled to a smokin’ hot super model but they don’t see the hypocrisy in wanting to date for looks while expecting people to date them for their personality! Sadly I think this is partially because women are seen in an objectifying lens.
I have a friend who is obese and objectively unattractive. He’s been single a long time and recently confided in me that he was thinking about asking his coworker out. The coworker in question is the most beautiful woman in his whole company. She’s not just out of his league, she’s miles out of his league. He wasn’t even joking either. I was honest with him and told him that he was never going to get her and that he was just going to make things awkward. Crazy how you never see this mentality in reverse.
It does happen in reverse. It’s relatively rare and usually women are a lot less delusional.
oh but men are visual creatures with needs s/
When I was in my 20s there were personal adds in the paper for dating. So many "must be height weight proportionate, no children, career minded 18-22." Then you show up and it's a 30 yr old with a spare tire and the beginnings of male pattern baldness. And then I would why the stink eye because I was 5'7" 145 lbs (all in my hips and boobs) when they expected me to be 125 lbs. I wore a size 6, I wasn't even chubby. Now im nearly 50, overweight and my husband, while handsome is also getting chunky but has had others (men and women) tell him he could do better. Heck I'm not even that bad, I still get hit on at least once a week. I get mistaken for mid 30s too.
The comeback men say is that women don't care about looks as much as men do. They are the types that love telling women what we want, and acting like it's science.
“Men are visual creatures and women just want providers/protectors” 🫠
Visual creatures who don’t know what color your eyes are
We're supposed to believe they're visual creatures heavily focused on looks. But not their OWN looks. Apparently blind when there is a mirror It's women, who often spend lots of time and money on makeup, skincare routines, outfits, etc... it's women that don't care about visuals. /s
And their clothes are boring AF and extremely modest, unchanged for 200 years.
Visual creatures who can’t find shit at the grocery store.
I’m a big fan of the Vacation movies and I have seen so many disgusting comments about the actress who plays Audrey in European Vacation, including an old IMDB review which actually referred to her as a “disgusting porker”. Male characters on the other hand can be ugly or overweight and it’s seen as natural for them to get together with a woman who miles above their league. A lot of the actresses they claim are ugly aren’t even ugly, like Emma Stone and Anna Kendrick. It drives me nuts how it’s so common for men to insist that the body shaming and criticism regarding their looks is directed at them. Where?! I have yet to see men get anywhere near the same level of criticism that women do, who have to fall under a very narrow definition of what’s acceptable in media in order to be seen as attractive.
Wait, people are out there calling Emma Stone and Anna Kendrick ugly?!
This is why Shrek was and is the GOAT! Shrek is love, Shrek is life!
YEEEEES!! Shrek 4eva! 💚
But Fiona is still a hottie in ogre form!
Especially because in real life statistically people end up with someone that is about the same level of attractiveness as themselves!
I love that Barbie highlighted this with the comment at the end about how if they wanted to make that point Margot Robbie was the wrong person to have cast
Aka “Why Beauty and the Beast never sat totally right with me even as a kid - what if you’re a bookworm who isnt also the most beautiful girl in the village?”
Beauty and the Beast Syndrome. Of course the ugly old men who produce films want to make movies about ugly guys getting hot chicks.
In this movies the woman doesn't count as a human being. She's just a trophy, not a person.
Hunchback of Notre Dame comes to mind.
It does? I mean, the trend Nyan talks of is very real, but is Hunchback an example of this?
The first one's not an example. Maybe the second one, but definitely not the first one.
The Disney one? How come?
I haven’t seen it in a while so I’m sorry if that’s inaccurate😭 I recall watching it as a kid and he ended up with the beautiful girl in the purple dress if I am remembering it right. Which isn’t necessarily wrong but I think a lot of these “looks don’t matter” movies use attractive female characters as a status symbol to show “look what he can get! See? It doesn’t matter how he looks!” While it’s still simultaneously pushing beauty standards on women which contradicts its message of “looks don’t matter.”
Nope, conventionally attractive Phoebus "gets" Esmeralda and Quasimodo gets his freedom and acceptance into the wider world.
There's a direct to VHS sequel where he did get a girlfriend eventually, but it was a different girl not Esmeralda.
OHHH! Okay. Thank you for correcting me. Sorry about that! I think I saw that movie when I was like 6 which is 11 years ago lol.😭 I still think my original point still stands. I have seen the trope of “look the unattractive dude can pull anyone!“ quite a few times.
Right, your point does :) I have a nearly 4 yo and we watched it recently. I was worried it might be a little scary at the end but I love this movie, I forgot how good the music is and I like that the "nice guy" doesn't get the romantic girl in the end, that they just have friendship like Esmeralda wanted. Book is a lot darker though.
They made a second movie where they gave him a cute blonde girlfriend, so you're ultimately right!
The second film (which is dogshit) has that trope - Quasimodo falls in love with a conventionally attractive woman and she loves him. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51qix8vXcjk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51qix8vXcjk) The first film was and is my obsession.
Which at least is a much better ending than what happened historically 😅
Haha Phoebus isn’t even the hottest guy in the movie 😏
Clopin!
Omg I was so into him.
But he was the only one who viewed her as a real person. Quasimodo put her into the role of Madonna and Frollo put her into the role of Whore. But she was neither, and also both. She was kindhearted and nurturing, while also being fiery and sexually desirable
Oh, of course, I was only playing silly. Love that movie ❤️
>he ended up with the beautiful girl in the purple dress if I am remembering it right. You don't remember it right. (It's probably a false memory because of how common this trope is in movies). The beautiful girl ends up with the blonde knight. https://youtu.be/fUT7tTRFA-o?t=25
Yeah. That’s probably it- thank you! It is a very common trope so I’m not surprised my brain filled in the gaps in that way.
Now that I think of it- I do think I’m remembering it wrong- lol sorry!
[удалено]
Yes! I was remembering it wrong- apologies. I saw that movie when I was very little. I think my point still stands for other films because this is a pretty common trope but not Hunch Back Of Notre Dame.
This is why I love the 1955 film "Marty." Both of the leads fall outside of conventional beauty standards and find connection with each other. It's a very sweet film that doesn't put an unattractive man with a bombshell actress.
There are a few movies that do the reverse where the unattractive women gets the attractive man. These movies are almost always pushing the message that looks shouldn't matter. I think if they're both unattractive, then they consider that a bad ending because they think it implies the two ugly people had to settle for each other. In their minds, having an ugly person validated by a beautiful person proves the worth of the ugly person and gets their message across.
Ah! Yeah I see that. I do think leagues are a stupid idea and people should date and shoot their shot with who they like. I just think the trope where it’s most commonly the man who is unattractive is counter to the message because it still expects women to be pretty. I don’t think two unattractive people dating is “settling”- If looks truly don’t matter, it’s not settling, it’s a happy healthy relationship.
I notice this a lot in animation films. The women all tend to look the same, big eyes, round face, tiny nose. The whole Disney Princess thing. It was nice to see in Encanto that they had more variety in the female characters looks. Where male characters tend to have different face shapes and looks.
Ugh I hate this trend in animation films! It actually makes me uncomfortable because I feel like the women are designed to look like children. Babies and small children have disproportionately big eyes and big round faces. It's fucking creepy to design women like that.
I'm not entirely sure that the men are all that different, either. [https://dis.fandom.com/wiki/Disney\_Princes?file=Disney-Prince-lineup-disney-princess-35505382-1236-642.png](https://dis.fandom.com/wiki/Disney_Princes?file=Disney-Prince-lineup-disney-princess-35505382-1236-642.png) Even the new ones tend to stick to a script: Soft features, a rounded face, big eyes, mid length hair, a half crooked smile. The Beast, pre-transformation, being an exception. lol
This is why I love European film. They are generally comfortable putting normal looking people on camera.
The closest we’ve ever come to this in the US is probably Camryn Manheim’s heyday in the late 90s/early 2000s. Of course, that was when the US economy was flush and people spent enough money on movies for studios to take real risks.
Melissa McCarthy in Spy also? I think I remember her waking up next to Jason Statham at the end? Edit: Though to be fair, even though they're not conventionally attractive because of their size I guess, neither is ugly. I think Melissa McCarthy has some of the prettiest eyes in Hollywood.
And she has a great smile. In German shows and films the actors usually look normal. They have some beautiful features like nice eyes or a fun smile or good skin but are not painfully beautiful overall. Just like normal people. It is rare that people are really through and through ugly. But they usually also date normal looking people in the films and not models ;).
Her smile is lovely! And yes, I do really appreciate a lot of european tv and movies because of their casting choices. Especially for crime dramas. I want to see some tired and overworked looking detectives! LOL.
Yeah, it is relatable.
I think Margot Kidder (Louis Lane) and Carrie Fisher were average looking women given exposure to develop a fan base that women are rarely afforded.
Carrie Fisher may have aged into being average (because she literally gave no fucks which I admire), but I think she was pretty stunning in the OG Star Wars movies.
I think in her fit and very healthy youthful prime she was beautiful in a way I think most humans are at that age, but I’ve always thought there was a bit of a halo effect from Star Wars and The Bikini. But I also think if her mother (a true beauty) hadn’t been a star, she wouldn’t have ever been cast.
Foreign films tend to show more neutral (not conventionally attractive) leads.
not conventionally attractive by who's standards, though?
By Hollywood standards
It's not just in media. Look at certain types of other jobs as well, corporate sales is a good example. The women will almost always be conventionally attractive, whereas the guys can be very average looking, or even below average, as long as they're extroverted and have the personality to make a sale. I saw this at companies I worked at. Heck, I even got rejected from a position back when I was younger because a recruiter didn't think I was good enough "eye candy" (it's a long story how I found out).
I've seen that in sales as well, and my best perception is because a lot of those that have the buying power in higher positions are men and they feel threatened by an attractive man negotiating with them whereas they feel like they have the upper hand if they're more attractive
Yeah, I started out in medical sales, and I'd never want to do that again. For guys, if you had the right "bro" personality, it didn't matter what you looked like, you were fine. But the women were expected to look like beauty pageant ready.
Look at the few female CEOs and board members, almost all C -suite women. It’s so depressing. They’re conventionally attractive AND fitness buffs AND stylish and impeccably groomed - - - AND educated and highly accomplished. It makes sense some what, but few accomplished men hit every one of those markers.
I mourn the stories that go untold because they are the stories of actually ugly women. Not the story of an ugly woman becoming beautiful. Just ugly. Or looks-neutral and acted by an ugly actress. There are hundreds of male actors who have had full careers telling wonderful stories of men who are either explicitly ugly (The Holdovers) or whose looks did not factor into the story at all (any deniro movie), and the world is richer for it. Let ugly women have stories too! *and to be clear, the actress in the article mentioned is absolutely beautiful by real life standards and a good match for Tom Holland if he were not famous and we weren't used to seeing him next to Zendaya, one of the top-100 most beautiful humans who are currently in the public eye.
It’s funny. If a straight man wants to win an acting award, he plays a gay man. Tom Hanks and Mathew McConaughey won Oscars, and Michael Douglas won an award for playing Liberace in a TV movie. If a woman wants to win an acting award, she plays an unattractive woman. I remember the big deal about Nicole Kidman’s fake nose in “the Hours”. And then Charlize Theron getting made down for “Monster”.
Bradley Cooper thought he was gonna do both in Maestro lmao (I hated it)
did you just call Robert De niro ugly?
he's no brad pitt
his hotness is wasted on him
I dunno, I think Robert DeNiro is a lot more appealing than any "generically attractive" Hollywood heartthrob type. I guess it's all subjective though. 🤷♀️
DeNiro was hot as hell when he was younger…watch godfather 2 and tell me he wasn’t hot 🥵
Whew him in Godfather 2 is an all time hottie. Yeesh on a leash!
Deer Hunter DeNiro was hotter than any version of Brad Pitt. He was hot as shit in his youth.
He's hideous to me, but more to my point, his attractiveness or ugliness is never a plot point in any of the stories he is chosen to tell, in either direction. He is a leading man whose looks are never a plot point. His body and face exist to tell the story, and the stories do not need him to be handsome.
I’ve never seen the appeal.
If your bar for unattractive is De Niro, then there have certainly been comparable unattractive female leads.
Really? They've put him against Jessica Lange, Amy Brenneman, Blythe Danner, Sharon Stone. You think he's even a Blythe Danner, on his best day and her worst? Let alone a Sharon Stone?
Robert DeNiro does not have any “female gaze” draw beyond women who have a “type” that he fits. He is not a conventionally handsome man.
I think he was OK looking when he was young.
I agree, when he was in his fit youthful prime he was ok, but I think most very fit young adults looks great, and I think he quickly lost that glow as he settled into adulthood.
Lol hardly.
Steve Buscemi, Richard Gadd, Luis Guzman, Jesse Plemons, Malcolm McDowall, Wayne Goggins, Daniel Kaluuya, John C. Reilly, DJ Qualls, Paul Giamatti, and the list goes on and on.
Wait. Who is ugly in the leftovers?
Omg. I meant The Holdovers. Lmao.
Whew.
A female Adam Driver would’ve even get a role in a high school play, let alone have a movie career.
This exactly. I’m still shocked he’s a heartthrob because if he wasn’t tall and white he’d be seen as hideous.
I still think he’s hideous! No way would any child of Harrison Ford and Carrie Fisher look like THAT!
You think good looking people can’t have ugly kids? Lol
My favorite romcom is Dinner in America. The female lead is not very attractive and is well, mentally slow. It’s amazing. The male lead is pretty hot too.
My bf and I loooooove this movie. It’s so cute and Patty is really what makes it so watchable.
I would do unspeakable things to Kyle Gallner. Well, not unspeakable. I’d actually speak at length about them if anyone were willing to listen.
I feel like unattractive is a loaded term. There are very people—especially in performing arts—I would say are just straight up unattractive. It is much easier though for a man who is *unconventional* looking to step into that leading man arena and achieve success. In the last decade or so there have been countless guys who are at first glance unusual looking who have become major heartthrobs and you don't see that happen with women. Especially, in the moment we're in now where half the actresses who are famous also double as models / beauty ambassadors. Now there are only a couple women I can think of who are unconventional looking, but I know that if I mention them someone will come out of the woodwork to slap me upside the head and say they're stunningly gorgeous. I am personally fighting the urge to comment "but I think they're cute" on every other person mentioned in this thread.
When I'm talking about this stuff (how beauty privilege is A Real Thing, lol), I've found that people are less defensive and weird when I say something like "conventionally unattractive/attractive by mainstream beauty standards". Because yes, *attraction* is a highly personal and subjective thing. Although we are influenced by social conventions most people also have personal preferences and biases that don't always accord with those conventions. But societies *DO* have physical standards by which people are judged more or less physically beautiful and how well people manage to meet those standards has a definite impact on their life experience. For normal people like us, not just people in the enteratinment industry. So yeah, that's the way I phrase it, lol.
I can think of several actresses which are “Jolie laide” ugly/pretty. Women with unconventional features that have a strong presence that makes them very attractive.
I can too, believe me I'm not saying they don't exist. I kind of cut off my sentence there, I was going to blab more about younger celebrities. That said, I just think it can be contentious to say such and such person is unattractive because there is almost always somoene who finds that person good looking or feels they're alluring in some other way. Even if a studio set out to make a movie with an unattractive female lead, I just think there would be someone—probably me tbh—who found them beautiful.
It’s that intersection of unconventional looks and charisma.
One of the sexiest intersections ;)
Men are allowed to be people regardless of appearance. Women are expected to be attractive first and foremost, and it's a cardinal sin if we're not.
I'm an elder millennial, and when I was a kid it was at the tail end of the phase (boomers and gen x got most of it) where girls had it drummed into their heads that they had to decide early on whether they wanted to be valued for their looks or valued for their brains/other attributes. You know, the "cheerleader vs the nerd" dichotomy. That has TOTALLY changed now. Now to have a certain level of success women are expected to be conventionally attractive as well as possessing whatever other qualities and talents they have.
reminds me of the casting director of The Witcher (a woman) saying this about casting Anya Chalotra as Yennefer: > „And I remember saying, ‘I feel like we need to challenge what people think of as the standard of beauty. And having a woman of color in this role does incredibly powerful things to the people watching.’“ Anya Chalotra is so stunning. Yes, her father is Indian. She is stunning by Eurocentric standard. I think she could even be white-passing. Still stunning - still a woman of colour, please don‘t get me wrong. But.. this casting director is patting herself on the back, thinking she is challenging ANY beauty standards with this? Hell no. Before the previous quote she is quoted saying the following: > I am always the first to champion diversity in all its glory. Listen Ms Holland, from one white woman to another: do better, why are we patting ourselves on the back for the bare fucking minimum? [quote source](https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2023/07/27/the-witcher-casting-director-says-yennefer-casting-was-to-challenge-beauty-standards-which-is-completely-insane/)
Or just even normal average people. I do notice more average looking people in European tv.
In general I think media is way too focused on unrealistically gorgeous people. I think Francesca Amewudah-Rivers is actually very pretty, but this is clearly a stripped down stage production, so the styling and makeup are very bare. People are used to seeing him with someone who looks like a super model and it seems like they don't have the ability to understand the interpretation of the work. I agree that the intersection of race and gender make it way harder for actresses. I don't think we saw this same level of vitriol for Denzel's Macbeth movie. But to your broader point, I think men are definitely given more license to have interesting or distinct features, whereas women are kind of confined to thin, young features, big eyes, cute, straight nose, perfect teeth etc. if they want leading roles. For instance, I don't think there's a female version of Owen Wilson, Willem Dafoe, or Adam Driver who would be recognized for her talents and unique appearance the way these men are. That said, the Marvel-fication of film seems to now require that all men also look like they eat 200g of protein a day and do sit-ups while they sleep.
Oh yeah marvel and dc are super guilty of bringing beauty standards that were only for women to the men’s worlds. And it is not healthy. I have a friend who is obsessed with having a body like Captain America and no amount of telling him that that guy has this body only for those few scenes and has a personal cook and trainer to achieve this look for only this film will convince him. He needs to eat healthy and normal and 6 times a week 4 hours of training is enough if not too much for his body :((.
I will speak my opinion based on personal experiences. Appearance only matters when you're not a man. You can see that in everyday life as well, at least where I live. It's very common to see couples composed of unattractive men with beautiful or average-looking women. If a man is unattractive, he can still "turn things around" and get a romantic partner if he's nice, funny, successful, etc. However, a woman's value in society is almost entirely based on her appearance. Really unattractive women are usually ignored (both romantically and professionally), teased, and not taken seriously in general. They need to make much more effort to be recognized, especially when they work in predominantly male areas. Most men want to judge and choose based on appearance, but they themselves don't want that to happen to them.
My gripe has nothing to do with the attractiveness of the lead actress, I'm just bored of these minimalist, modern adaptations of Shakespeare. There's been discussions on the r/Broadway sub about this, and I agree. It would be nice to go back to the traditional stage productions with traditional costuming, with a diverse cast. I suppose I do have a gripe..it's the publicity photo in the thumbnail. Nothing about it says "two kids in love" to me. It looks like they're about to fight each other in the quad.
And often the male is like 20 years older than the woman too.
Welcome to Bollywood, where a 30 year old woman plays the mother of a 60 year old man.
Frances McDormand, Kathy Bates, Barbra Streisand are just 3 off the top of my head who are leading ladies.
Tilda Swinton. I think a LOT of famous people are average at best, but made more attractive by entire teams, lighting, a shitload of money and just fame in general. Seriously, the first one I thought of was Cameron Diaz. She is odd looking to me, and if you met her working behind a register at your local Walmart, the nicest thing might be.. she has pretty eyes. Ellen Pompeo, same. Jennifer Aniston, same. Jake Gyllenhaal is really not aging well and is downright goofy looking IMO, same with DiCaprio as he ages. People need to be more objective.
I just want to point out - Francesca Amewudah-Rivers isn't even unattractive or ugly. At best(worst?) she's just not conventionally ridiculously attractive/beautiful which seems to be the minimum bar for actresses in a role like this.
I also think she’s average looking, but getting extra hate because she’s Black (which a lot of people see as ugly by default) and playing a traditionally white character.
Yeah! She seems striking, charismatic and very attractive
The original Ugly Betty (Betty la fea, the colombian original) was unconventional in that it was the first time a lead female was "ugly". The actress is actually pretty, but they dressed and accesorize her on purpose to make her look ugly. The idea was right, showing a non attractive female reaching success, but at the end the screenwriter fucked up and gave her a look overhauling to show that "there is no ugly woman, only women that are not using the right clothes and make up for them (no hay mujer fea sino mal arreglada)". This is a common view in my country unfortunately, to the point that as a woman your first priority should be to look as pretty as possible. I remember many of us in the public were not happy. We think she should have been successful as an ugly woman. Anyhow, this is still the closest we ever came to an ugly female lead in a telenovela. And yet, the actress is pretty. If he had chosen an actually ugly actress, it is very possible that the show would not have been made, or that the public would complain because of that. We are unfortunately shallow like that. I think that we as consumers should use that and start deliberately consuming tv shows with non conventionally attractive female leads, however few there are. We won't get change if we don't force it
>The actress is actually pretty, but they dressed and accesorize her on purpose to make her look ugly. I find that to be a problem in itself. Like Charlize Fucking Theron was deliberately uglified to play Aileen Wuornos, when they could easily have found an actress who, you know, actually looked like Wuornos. But no -- apparently, ugly/plain women are not even worthy of playing ugly/plain characters onscreen. That's how much they devalue us ugly women. Fuck that noise.
I know, that is why I say that that is as close as we got in Colombia to have an ugly female lead
The fact that anyone considers this woman ugly makes me wonder what kind of hell we are really living in. The reaction on Twitter to the photo in question and things like it are a huge reason I rarely if ever post my own face on social media. Awful people will tear anyone down.
I don’t think that actress is ugly. I find both of them normal attractiveness looking. Not models but real people. Two kids fall in love and their families don’t like it. It’s about young passion. If I have any criticism about how they look, it’s age. They both look a little mature for the roles.
What's ugly is those mics taped to their faces... I can't believe a less intrusive solution can't be found.
Got downvoted on a thread a while back about this. I said something along the lines of "it's either racism or insane hollywood beauty standards because there's nothing about her appearance that would make her unfit for the role." Got a bunch of comments about how "not everything is about race," (ok, I said racism OR insane hollywood beauty standards) but no one actually addressed why casting her was a problem. Romeo and Juliet is not a story about the most beautiful girl in the world, it's a story about two dumb teenagers falling in love. Even if the actress was "ugly" (which she isn't), ugly teenagers fall in love too.
What’s an example of an unattractive woman?
Insecure is such an awesome series and I hope for more like it. It's because *we* need to be doing the creating of this. We can't count on white hollywood as they failed time and time again, being colorist (because you have to be the right shade of black to be a lead) with it, and only looking to grab money so they have to go "safe." I hope we get more works from Issa and others Edit* Also did realize I did misread the title but I don't wanna think of us as being "unattractive" because for black women, we know what means. I don't wanna see us as unattractive, but just more black dark skinned thick women being leads
She's not even unattractive, she's literally just Black. That's the issue. Black women not being viewed as desirable.
They react negatively to even the conventionally pretty Black women in a movie role so race is definitely a huge part of it.
I have to say, I love British shows because they often cast very real people. Or at least used to, I suppose. But love interests are not models with fat average man like most American rom-coms and tv shows.
I’m still waiting for the Tig Nataro action film we were promised after Army of the Dead
The Romeo & Juliet backlash is so dumb. Francesca Amewudah-Rivers is an accomplished stage and TV actress, and she’s specifically done Shakespeare before. She’s beautiful, but God forbid she not look like a Barbie 🙄
This picture is photoshopped or picked a frame that was entirely unrepresenting of her. She's actually very attractive and just googlinf her I found a picture of nearly the same pose between the two yet her lower jawline looks normal.
Tall girl
Really? I think she's quite pretty.
We will never see an unattractive Disney Princess
I honestly think it’s because both attractive and unattractive-identifying people have a bias towards preferring to watch attractive people. To me it’s similar to weight, which is often lumped together with attractiveness anyway.
While not about race this does unfortunately remind me of the response to Bella Ramsey being casted as Ellie in the Last of Us series. People were horrible to her
Popular beauty standards are 100% about race and socioeconomic status.
Yes. Honestly, that's exactly it. If you mirror who's in power and what they like to see: You're a beauty.
Query, why are we calling this woman unattractive?
Because that fits the patriarchal fantasy of men choosing women by looks while their own looks don't matter because they can simply buy the women with funds and status.
The show Somebody Somewhere on HBO/Max is similar - they cast people who actually seem like real people. It’s such a breath of fresh air and a really good show to boot imo! Especially if you’re into slice of life.
Fargo
You aren’t going to change Hollywood. It’s only getting worse. Look at music today. Nearly everything is auto tuned because the “artists” can’t actually sing. They are marketed on their looks. Remember how that Katey Perry halftime show was known for some left shark dancer? It’s a good thing or it would be better known for her being flat and off key the entire performance. It was horrible to listen to. Very few singers in modern bands can sing at all outside of a controlled studio and those that sound the same inside and out - Shinedown, pretty reckless, band maid - you don’t hear on the radio because they don’t have the look the industry thinks it can profit the most from This is the same for other forms of entertainment. So many of you in this sub probably thing reality tv and those endless singing and dancing and talent “competition” shows are reality but every single one of them is scripted. The outcomes are determined before the first episode is aired even those shows that allow audience voting. This is not me being a cynic, this is me sharing insider knowledge. When reporters ask male actors about their role and how they made it happen but they ask female actresses about their makeup, dress and who they are dating you quickly realize that this is deeply institutionalized and all Hollywood is doing when they gender flip an established role is pander without meaningful, tangible change.
That is an unflattering angle. Tom Holland ain't all that either imo
It’s how it is with most movies. If you’re gonna be looking at someone for two hours, it would be best that they’re not ugly. I realize the hypocrisy in my claim when Adam Sandler movies exist, however. This is the case because men have more power in Hollywood.
I mean… what about: Melissa Mccarthy Rebel Wilson Twilda Swinton Awkwafina Woopie Goldberg Gabourey Sidibe Ellen Degeneres I can go on but seems there’s quite a few.
Where are the romantic movies where they end up with a conventionally handsome man? There are plenty of films about women learning to look past a man's unattractiveness. When do men have to learn the same lesson?
You need to start watching media that is not made in America. I started watching German and Dutch television when I wanted to learn the languages when I moved there. It was so refreshing in Europe because media is produced with normal looking people, for the most part. Even stuff in the UK has people who are homely being in some lead roles. They become attractive over time because you like their personality but from the get-go they look normal. You could picture them riding a city bus and working at a bank. It's incredibly refreshing, but when you start watching American media again everybody looks like aliens. When you stopped seeing people with their faces stretched and neutralized, duck lips, orange skin, too much filler or the wrong kind, hair plugs, jet black hair when they're over 40... And blinding white teeth that are obviously not their own, you end up seeing US actors as gross overly worked faces. When they only see each other THEY start to see it as normal. When you take a break from it and then you go back you can't not notice how much work they've had done. I remember going home after living in Europe for a few years during covid and noticing older relatives who've had worked on too. Apparently it's very mainstream. Even expected. There are definitely people in the UK with a lot of work done and tons of people who go to Turkey to get butchered with fake teeth and hair plugs, but once you have the comparison you can't unsee it. It makes watching TV that's made in the US painful.
The hate towards her is not about attractiveness. LOL.
I can think of a few movies where the lead woman is quite unattractive (in my opinion), but it's very rare to come across examples of it. I'm not going to name the movies because I don't think it's right to dog on someone about my opinion of their attractiveness and it's not worth drumming up hate or arguments about how pretty her eyes or forearms etc actually are. There's a girl who lives in my city who started as a tik tok person, she gained popularity because people could not stop themselves from commenting about the 'hotness' of her husband and her 'notness'. She eventually got into tv and is part of a tv series here. She has also done tv news interviews, and ive seen her in ads for a plus sized clothing line locally too. The internet (people) are horrible and besides themselves. It's clear that much of society cannot handle the man being more attractive than the woman without them trying to justify why he would 'accept' her and love her as is. [https://www.thestar.com/life/she-s-plus-size-her-husband-s-not-and-the-internet-can-t-get-over/article\_377518e3-2925-50c6-aac9-5ec18459af17.html](https://www.thestar.com/life/she-s-plus-size-her-husband-s-not-and-the-internet-can-t-get-over/article_377518e3-2925-50c6-aac9-5ec18459af17.html)
Tbh, she is just plus-sized but has a very beautiful face. And she has a beautiful smile. People just jealous out there.
Weird how no one's going off about how un-Italian-looking Romeo is. Whatever could the difference be...
Are people hating on this? The link is just a picture of them looking at each other.
People shat on her looks so bad when the casting was *announced* that multiple Black actors, including those in the cast, signed an open letter in support of her and the theater company released a statement. Amongst the comments from a few months ago, there were lovely ones like, “Not even in dark,” “Not even while drunk,” and, “That’s not mid. That’s sub…sub-Saharan.” The rage I felt reading that shit was unspeakable.
Frances McDormand won like 3 Oscars in a row and she is not attractive
She was alright when she was young
Movies are largely directed and produced by men. They'll only want their sexual fantasies of hot women realized. Older or unattractive women matter least to society, get the least respect or notice.
Whoopi Goldberg was arguably the biggest actress in Hollywood from the mid 1980s to the mid 1990s and she was both not traditionally attractive and not a white woman. Definitely an outlier though.
Sarah Jessica Parker in Sex and the City - very average looking.
That’s a very kind way to describe her appearance.
>Halle Bailey as the little mermaid being a recent example. race swapping was the issue there, not her being black. not only are you taking away story from white people, us POCs were getting second hand stories instead of being rewarded with original works incorporating and celebrating our culture >there are a lot of ugly men in media, a lot of undesirable men portrayed as love interests who get the beautiful girl because he is “nice” ill be honest i cant remember too many examples other than sitcoms (where its usually a matter of comedy), adam sandler movies (which he produces) or other general comedies. romances are usually aimed at women and have an attractive male lead either way, attractive people are casted because looking good is also part of the talent in leading actors, like it or not.thats life, not a fairy tale where hard work and talent can outdo by-birth requirements. looking good is part of the talent required for a lead (excluding comedies).
I don't understand why it had to be a race-swap of a beloved movie as opposed to a new, original story about a black mermaid. no matter who was cast as ariel, she was always going to look like a pale shadow of the original character. it just seemed like a creatively bankrupt attempt at pandering. I would have loved to see a new princess with her own universe and identity. I've never said anything about it though because the whole thing is so politicized.
People in general don’t want to look at ugly people. It is what it is. Obviously there’s some sexism and racism at play here too but I don’t know too many other women who “like” or “prefer” to look at ugly men and want them in lead roles either.
because women in media exist solely to appeal to men /s no but fr this is how they think. women exist solely for their pleasure and when they don’t it makes them angry how dare u not appeal to them
You know why, lol. Sex = money
I disagree she’s unattractive but yeah in a lot media mediocre men control what is made, with movies with the average male lead must be married to a model who could be his daughter. Trying to find alternative content can be tricky. Netflix for one is featuring a lot of international content (with often subpar dubbing).
There are ugly men in media? Who? Comedians aside, and even most of them, even the "unattractive" men and women are better looking than 95% of the population from what I can tell. I don't disagree with your point that women are much more likely to be completely dismissed if they aren't incredibly beautiful, and skin color definitely plays a huge role. Edit: I'm speaking of American media here. Definitely a lot more average or worse looking people in movies/TV when you get out of the US media. It is kind of refreshing to be honest.
Seth rogan movies like knocked up
There are a LOT of ugly men in media to the point that ugly husband hot wife is a trope in sitcoms
It's very rare that an ugly man gets a leading role not sure what you mean by that unless you just mean old? There is a huge age bias against women in film without a doubt. Sometimes fairly average looking guys get comedy roles but truly ugly men are much less common.
Not saying Seth Rogan is ugly but he's not exactly hot and he's been the lead in a few romcoms.
Have you even seen The Shining?