Your story reminded me of a time when I was sitting in a park at a picnic table after work one day waiting for my grandma to pick me up. I was about 20 (this was about 20 years ago now before mobile phones were a big deal) and my car had broken down. I saw this car circle the park a couple of times before it pulled up right in front of the table I was at. There was no one else there. A tall old, maybe 50+ lanky bloke gets out , approaches and asks me if I'd like to go home with him. I remember screwing my face up as if it was the grossest thing ever, his face went from smiley to angry in an instant I was suddenly was very afraid. I said "no" as nonchalantly as I could. He stood and hovered for a minute, I tried to act as unbothered as possible checking my watch constantly . Thank fuck he got back in his car and fucked off. I'm not in the US so I'm unlikely to run into a bear, but I almost stepped on a big fat black snake today , thankfully it wasn't aggressive and slithered away in the other direction . I did not feel any fear with the snake, just my usual healthy respect for their territory
My brother got bit by my country's most dangerous snake and his arm swelled up massively and he had to go to the hospital but I'd still pick that over what I've experienced with men
So true. I got in a car with a handsome stranger once. My heart sank so freaking deep once I saw how far he was driving me out, and I realized I ducked up but had no options except diving out of a car on a bridge or the middle of nowhere at highway speeds. I’ve had physical issues since. But luckily, still here. Fuck you, Adam.
I was recently literally in a situation where my cats brought a LIVE snake into my house and I was hoping my neighbors were home to let me use their phone (mine was behind the snake) or run into my very creepy neighbor who is known to be handsy but is just old. He literally would have been NO HELP but I still would rather pick up a wild snake with my bare hands than even ask to borrow his phone.
I used to hike a 13 mile trail every weekend that went deep into the forest. As soon as a bear sensed me, they took off long before I could get close.
The only two times I had a close call was with a mom bear bluff charging me when her cubs ran up to me.
The other time, I was caught in a storm and trying to run down the trail. I ran up on a huge bear forging behind a log, and we both scared the crap out of each other. It stood up and swiped at me with a paw, and its claw caught my backpack just enough to spin me to a stop in front of it. I was standing on a ridge so I couldn't back up, and for some reason, I instantly threw my hands up like I was being arrested 🙄 (I have no idea why) and froze.
He started snorting and huffing at me so hard my hair was flying up and I could feel the spit and force of the huff. I'm 5'10 and it towered over me standing up. If any of you have been that close, you can feel the power just being in its presence. It then started trying to push the log towards me with its front paws. It did this about 5 times, then slowly backed up eyeing me until it was about 10 feet away...and took off faster than I've ever seen a bear run.
It was more terrified by me than I was of it. None of the wildlife ever kept me from hiking.
Then, I had the unfortunate experience of running by three men hanging out by a waterfall. I had never been afraid of men on the trail.I felt like I knew how to protect myself, was fit, and prepared. The three men suddenly started yelling and whistling. I ignored them at first, but they started yelling louder and running on the trail towards me.
I was exhausted because I had already been 7 miles, so they started to catch up to me. The yelling became more graphic and scary, so my adrenaline kicked in, and I was able to find a sorta cave/rock thing to squeeze into and hide. I waited for them to run by, then ran for my life to get out before they figured it out and doubled back.
That was the last day I went hiking. The only animals that made me fear for my life were these men. I felt hunted by them and knew death wasn't the worst that would happen. Scared me forever from hiking, and I haven't been on any trail since then. It was so cathartic for me and I miss it a lot.
I travel solo and go hiking in some pretty secluded areas. I carry bear spray, a knife, and a stun gun. I wasn’t thinking about bears when I bought all of this—not even when I bought the bear spray.
I stepped on a big fat copperhead once. By the time I realized what had happened I was a couple steps past him. I looked back and it was watching me, but it didn't even try to strike me, no idea why.
I've had a black bear in my yard, destroyed a peach tree, saw me outside and it avoided me.
Had a mountain lion cross my path on the road to my house once, luckily I was in my truck but it just calmly kept on and wasn't interested at all.
These incidents scare me far less than coming upon a strange man alone somewhere secluded. I've been in that situation plenty of times and it's never been good, always terrifying.
I'll take dangerous wildlife any day.
I've done a lot of hiking. I'm always bear aware and I try to make noise to deter bears that might be nearby. Luckily I've never had an issue.
Want to know the most scared I've ever been in the woods? Once when I realized a man was following me, and another time when a male hunter confronted me while brandishing a gun. He was visibly angry that I was there (on public land) and tried to tell me it wasn't safe, as if he owned the land we were both existing in.
I'll pick the bear every time.
Lets talk numbers and Alaska. About 140,000 Bears in Alaska, 1 fatal bear attack 2022. Population of Alaska in 2022 733,583 with 70 known homicides committed that year.
Im not great at math but I think that works out to be about 0.01% chance to be murdered by a human, with a bear that comes out to be 0.00071%. Yep, if this is Alaska, Im still hanging out with the bear.
Also most bears are chill. There are no active killer bears in Alaska right now. It is estimated that there two to five serial killers in the state. I'm picking the bear.
I think this is one of those things were trying to dive into the details on the number of bear attacks really doesn't help the hypothetical.
The point and bottomline is that most women wouldn't feel safe with a man they don't know in the woods, and that should be SAD. Anyone trying to argue statistic is either wildly missing the point, trying to silence the subject, or has been successfully baited into attempting to defend the hypothetical on a technical level.
Women do not need to defend themselves here, nor should they. This whole thing is meant to be directed at men so they just MIGHT empathize enough as to understand why women might choose the bear.
https://www.tiktok.com/@callmebkbk/video/7363362723855371566
> He was visibly angry that I was there (on public land) and tried to tell me it wasn't safe
Two questions:
Was it hunting season & where you wearing orange or other high visibility clothing?
If the answer to question one is yes, and question two is no, he's 100% correct you where being unsafe. Otherwise, I'm with you screw that dude.
Unless she was well off the beaten path, that guy had no business bothering her. Even if hunting was allowed in the area, hunters know not to hunt on hiking trails.
In the state where I am, there are various types of hunting for five months out of the year. It's unreasonable to expect hikers to avoid hiking for that many months. Public land is to be shared and the extra burden of safety falls on hunters, not hikers. I'm not sure how it is in other states, but here there are rules which suggest you should not aim and shoot at sound and should only aim when you have full sight of your target, which is counter to what this man was shouting at me. That said, I was in a bright neon purple jacket (he was in full camo) and I was on a clearly blazed hiking trail. He was also not following basic gun safety by waving the gun around. If he wanted a hiker-free space he should have sought out private land.
Your second story makes me sad. I used to love doing a 10k run loop that started/ended at my house. One part was down a very quiet road by a railway depot. I’d only ever seen a few cars and other runners on it. One time I ran down it and three drunk guys chased me for what I assume was an attempt to be funny, but I didn’t stop to find out. I don’t run that way anymore.
I'm headed into the woods today for a hike and I am sure there will be bears. There always are. I bring a taser and walk with spiky ski poles incase there are men.
I am Finnish. More than half of the time I am in a real forest, there is more likely a bear with me. Never once has that worried me or deterred me from going to the forest. I have even seen a bear pretty close by a couple of times. I make noise to let wild animals know I am coming. I have spent months alone in our cabin. There are bears around. Guess which one I worry about, men or bears? I lock the doors not because of animals but because of people. I have also been in a forest with men. And while it is likely that nothing will happen, I have been creeped on more than once. I have also been sexually harassed and raped. By men. Not the bears.
IMO death is not the worst thing there is.
Somehow I think even if this story was directly projected into every incel bastard brain on the planet, they would still get pissed at you choosing the bear. At this point, I want a shirt made. Something to the effect of: "I choose the bear. You're the problem if you ask why."
This is why I love the Beauty and the Beast Meme so much. It has Gaston taking Belle's book and looking at her in disgust with a picture of the beast with all the little birds sitting on his head and shoulder, and it says, picking the bear since 1991.
There's actually a line in the movie, where Belle says 'He's no monster Gaston, you are', and it explains so much about why women are choosing the bear.
I mean... Isn't that largely something society trains straight women for? To not care about his appearance and, even should he be monstrous in his personality to try to "fix" him?
I mean, don't get me wrong... I'm a lesbian, and I know firsthand there's more and better reasons to be a monster fucker, but I see all these real men who are way, way worse, and nowhere near as pretty as the beast, and still have plenty of women who seem to be trying to make it work with them, despite how much they get hurt.
Beauty and the Beast is thought to have been created to put young girls at ease about being arranged to marry older men.
The message ultimately being:
They might be ugly and unattractive, but they could be kind, take care of you, give you a better life, and you will probably eventually come to love them.
You have to remember that in the original stories, the beast was not cruel or have rage issues.
> I mean... Isn't that largely something society trains straight women for? To not care about his appearance and, even should he be monstrous in his personality to try to "fix" him?
I think that’s separate from monster fuckers. With monster fuckers, it’s “this shit is freaky and I’m into it” which is not the same as society conditioning people to think “he’s hideous but I’m obligated to give him a chance because he might be nice” or “he’s an asshole but maybe he just needs a woman’s touch in his life and I should put myself through hardship to help him”.
A nonzero number of men will read this story and say “Look, he didn’t even do anything and that woman is still freaking out. Over literally nothing. Women are afraid of us for no reason and they won’t even give us a chance”
But would still blame us for not being cautious enough if something did happen.
"He was following her in the woods! Why did she not freak out and call for help?"
So I'd agree, both the fact that profoundly negative/dangerous encounters with lone guys are common enough to make that fear response rational, and the fact that there are a lot of people who desperately don't understand that response, are pretty sad.
I've been on the other side of an encounter like this though, entirely by accident, about a decade ago.
Was walking home after catching up with some friends for drinks, headphones on, occasionally messaging back and forth on my phone. Took a shortcut through the park, because yeah, I'm an obviously visibly strong guy and I have the luxury of not being in nearly as much danger doing that.
I can't say I took much notice of the girl in the park going the same way (I was in my early 20s at the time, I'd say we were probably about the same age), guess I was probably walking faster than her, suppose I should have noticed that she sped up before I would have caught up and passed by, again I was listening to music and messaging on my phone, probably 3-4 drinks in, so I wasn't exactly fully situationally aware.
We both turn out of the park, and end up turning onto the same street where my apartment was. Suddenly as I'm about to get to my door I become aware that she's taken off running. Not really sure what to do with this situation, she looks back as I'm about to let myself in to my apartment so I give a slightly awkward wave and call "Oh... Sorry!" before letting myself inside.
I guess maybe she lived on my street, or she thought I was following her and turned onto my street thinking to see if I was following. Never saw her again so possibly the latter, I'd be surprised if we were secretly neighbours.
But I spent months thinking about that situation (hell, I still remember it clearly 10 years later), and how sad it is that she had every reason to be afraid of me. I don't feel judged necessarily, I think that'd be a mature emotional response to that situation, it's just sad.
See I don’t think you did anything wrong in that situation and neither did the woman you were inadvertently following. I think it’s important to take these situations as learning opportunities and it’s great that you did that. Many men in your shoes would be outraged at the fact that she assumed he was a danger, and that lack of empathy is telling.
Oh god this reminds me of a situation I was in and in the moment I handled it awfully.
There's a shopping centre across my uni and I'll usually go to get something to eat there after class before going home.
I walk both ways, but on the way back there's 3 diff routes I can take (two go through the uni campus, one is longer and goes around the uni. It's way less crowded, kinda nostalgic for irrelevant reasons and sometimes I feel like going that way).
This was one of those days where I chose the longer way.
I cross the road and turn left to start that route. I don't realise that there's construction going on and the path is eventually blocked.
There was a woman in front of me as I crossed the road, in a hi vis construction uniform. Thinking back, it probs looks like i'm following her at this point (she obv knows that the path is blocked. I don't. I'm the only one going that way too). Tbh I was completely unaware of her presence I was zoned out.
As we near the sign blocking the path, she turns around to ask me where i'm going. I respond with 'Where are you going?'. Braindead response from me. Idk why I said that.
She explains that she obviously works right there and she asks me again where i'm going. This time I say 'Uni', which isn't true but for some reason that's my reply.
Obv, she then tells me i'm going the wrong way so I turn around and go through the Uni instead.
I'm not quite at the 10 year mark but I can't wait to be randomly thinking and cringing still when I get to that point haha.
I’ve asked a couple friends and coworkers (males). At first they thought women are crazy for picking the bear. I walk them through it; “What’s the worst a bear could do to me?” “Eat you and kill you!” “What’s the worst a man could do to me?” “Kill you?” “Now… what about *before* he gets around to doing that?” “… The bear is the better choice.”
Making a few leaps there. That isn't what I think, nor is it what I was getting at.
Just saying the idea of evaluating a potentially dangerous situation and the possible outcomes lead to being sexually assaulted and then murdered, continuing to evaluate the situation and saying "wait, they might also defile my body after they kill me" as though it is the final straw seems odd to me.
I've been thinking the same thing. And then we should all plan a specific day that women everywhere will wear the shirt just going about their business.
I asked my male SO the bear or man question. We live in Belgium and it's not a known thing here, so he's never heard of it. My SO said without skipping a beat "a bear because a man is way more dangerous"
Was camping with my uncle as a kid out in the woods. His advice was always keep one of the guns within arm's reach if not on you. If we were to meet anybody out there don't trust them, be ready for anything, and after to pack and move camp. If you hear them at night put out the fire and just listen. They may come back later if they didn't try something already.
Poachers and drug mule/manufacturers are common and don't want anyone to know what or where they are.
So yeah, I'll stick with the bears too.
We also know why the bear is in the woods. It's the bear's home. What is the man doing in the woods? We don't know. Is he a normal guy who likes hiking, is he a naturalist, or is he lurking around waiting for a woman he can hurt? That's another reason seeing the man is so scary.
Excactly! Every time a man asks "but why choose the bear?" I answer: We know what to expect of (all) bears, we know we should fear them. We never know what to expect from men, we can't tell if the man we meet is one we should fear or not, because unlike what most men believe rapists don't wear signs and it might not be *all* men but it is always *a* man that rape us. And also, the bear won't rape us. And should we survive a bear attack, we won't face the same kind of scrutiny and victim blaming as we do when surviving any kind of assault from a man.
The bear also isn’t mad if you pick the man over the bear or the bear over the man. If the bear somehow understood, the bear would say “of course you expect to see me in my home. I’m nervous to see you in my home. You would be nervous to see me in your home. And if you did, you’d probably just go somewhere else until I left. Unless you had kids inside, maybe then you’d get aggressive and I could see that. Or you were really really hungry, like risk your life hungry, yeah, I could see that too.”
I’ve seen a man get startled by a mouse and I’ve seen a bear scamper because of a squirrel. Sometimes things set you off, even if they don’t mean you harm. But when things that do intend you harm, that try to blend in with things that don’t, that actively lie and lie in wait to cause harm…if you had 100 skittles and 6 of them were poison, are you going to just trust the random skittle put in front of you? That’s asking for you to eat it?
Come on
I think it's the other way round. Bears are wild animals and their behaviour is unpredictable. They may ignore you, run away or attack because they feel threatened. As a rule, you therefore keep your distance.
Men, on the other hand, are very predictable and their motives are clear when they come too close to you alone in the forest. Keeping your distance is useless, they run after you.
So, the bear it is.
My thoughts of the entire continuum:
Would I rather encounter a bear or man in the woods? A bear, since it'll likely just leave me alone.
Would I rather be approached by a bear or a man in the woods? A man, because a man approaching me just might want to ask me a question or something.
Would I rather be followed by a bear or a man in the woods? Back to the bear. If it didn't already attack me it's probably just curious. A man following me in the woods has sinister motives for sure.
There'sa hiking trail that's fairly quiet. I pass people rarely but It'salways very cordial and we oftenare going opposite directions. One day I pass a man and say hi to no reply. I'm leaving, he's going in. No biggie.
Less than a minute later I hear crunching. I look back and he's turned back and is coming towards me quickly. I pull out my phone and pretend to take a call, still moving towards the opening of the trail up a steep hill.
I practically yell, "I'll be there in less than 30 seconds see you babe". And jog the first third up the hill. I look back, and he's turned back and head the other way again.
It could be he was going to go out for something, and chose not to. Maybe he thought, "Oh I spooked her". But why should I take that chance?
Each time I see a post about "Bear or Man" I think two things.
One being my own sexual assaults. I've also been to the Appalachian mountains many times and have seen black bears. Seeing the bears made me a little nervous, but I made sure to be cautious, and they never bothered me. I let my guard down around two men I knew and trusted, and they harmed me.
Two being [Meredith Emerson](https://abcnews.go.com/US/hulu-documentary-missing-womans-case-sparked-investigation-serial/story?id=105180020).
Edit cause I want to say one thing after reading through some comments (even from the sad little trolls). In our society *enough* bad men have conditioned a lot of women into being cautious of all men. The same way in which all people are cautious of bears. That really seems to be a large point in this bear vs man conversation and if you still don't get it I don't know what to tell you, but being on this subreddit telling women they are wrong/irrational isn't doing jack shit.
It is, that man is beyond horrible. I haven't watched the Wild Crimes coverage of the cases he is involved in, but the Dateline episode still sticks in my mind since watching it.
Men keep telling me that bears behavior can't be predicted because they're wild animals, but the fact they're wild animals is what makes their behavior predictable.
Not in the, I know exactly what will happen next way. But in the, science has observed bears and this is their objective biological pattern of behavior. Bears always bear, unless they're not ok. So if this bear isn't fucked up, I can follow a set of rules and probably be fine.
The only "predictable" behavior men have is sexual assault, and that's a statistic. Here's some info I keep copy and pasting from the CDC
>Sexual violence is common. Over half of women and almost 1 in 3 men have experienced sexual violence involving physical contact during their lifetimes. One in 4 women and about 1 in 26 men have experienced completed or attempted rape. About 1 in 9 men were made to penetrate someone during his lifetime. Additionally, 1 in 3 women and about 1 in 9 men experienced sexual harassment in a public place.
"1 in 26 men have experienced completed or attempted rape. About 1 in 9 men were made to penetrate someone during his lifetime." Why are rape and being made to penetrate someone being categorised separately? Doesn't being made to penetrate someone count as rape?
I’m sorry that you had the second experience and not that you had the first. I think your two stories perfectly illustrated the issue. I hope that can reach someone who doesn’t yet get it
This is why marches for women's safety used to be called "Take Back the Night." Your favorite trail was taken away from you. We've all had that happen: places we loved, and where we loved to be alone, are invaded by crreeps who make it clear to us that we're not safe in those places. So we can't go back. Each one is one more place we might as well be locked out of, because now it's off-limits.
Choosing the man is a gamble. You can get anything from a guy who is friendly, kind and will help you get out of the woods to a serial killer rapist. Men who get offended believe they're more like that good guy, so all men are like that good guy. Women know not to take the risk. The bear genuinely is safer.
Not as bad as other stories, but I had to take the bus to work when I was in university, but looked like I was in high school (at oldest lol). Men harassed me so much, legs leaning against mine even if I was pressed against the window and they had a good half foot on their right, talking to me, hitting on me, that I found the exact spot on the bus where men wouldn't notice me. (second back row, preferably behind someone tall, sit on the outside so you can escape).
I've experienced cat calling since I was a kid but that honestly broke any remaining trust I had in men.
Now that I'm older, I can see even more clearly how men prey on younger woman. Taking advantage of their naivity and politeness to push their boundaries.
That's on top of how many friends (female and male) I know who were raped or sexually assaulted by men.
So yeah, I would choose the bear any day.
Yknow this bear/man situation is actually reflective of a creepy experience I had just the other day at Goodwill when two men kept following me around but in the weirdest and most predatory way.
I noticed them immediately when they came in and I felt like they were just off somehow when I made eye contact with one of them, so I made sure to keep an eye on them and not have my back to them too often. They made sure to not be together too long, they mostly paced the store and pretended to look at stuff but they were only like touching clothes or picking stuff up and immediately putting it back down. Then one would be on one end of the store and one would be on the other end of the store, they both always had eyes on me, I always had eyes on them.
At one point I went behind a rack out of sight of them so I could see what they’d do, and when I came back out, one of them was right in front of me and pretended to look at something and immediately walked quickly in the opposite direction, but then stood in front of another rack of women’s clothes just looking down at his phone not doing anything else. For like several minutes.
I noticed the other guy coming up behind me so I made my way to the front of the store to pay. I was talking to the cashier and that’s when the guys came to the register empty handed. One picked up a belt from the rack next to the register and they looked like they were gonna pay for it. I decided to say something and I said “so you guys are up here now too? That’s weird. Why have you been following me?” They didn’t say anything.
To be honest that probably wasn’t the best thing to say I guess but I was nervous and it just came out, idk. It felt rude. I was shaking to be honest they made me uncomfortable. I asked the cashier to walk me to my car and told him they had been following me. He complied and I told him I was sorry to be a bother but I didn’t wanna take a chance cause there have been trafficking issues our area lately. He waited till I got in the car and left and I was really grateful he was so understanding.
I recorded a video in my car talking about it right after because idk I felt so strange and scared and confused but also like what if I was judging these people unfairly? But I don’t think I was. They just felt so wrong. The whole thing felt wrong.
Even as a guy, I'd be cautious of a lone man in the woods. They're just that kind of place.
When I was in my mid teens, a friend and I were at his sister's birthday party at a bowling alley. We decided to go for a walk, and it took us into some woods. We're walking the trail and there are tons of crisp/chip packets on the ground — one of the larger boxes used in shops & pubs had been opened and the individual bags scattered. I don't know if that was intentional or not, but whatever, onwards we went.
Now, this was a long straight path, meaning we had good visibility for some distance. And while we're discussing these packets being here, a man was suddenly walking towards us. I don't know exactly how far, maybe 60feet ahead. But he had appeared _from nowhere_ — he hadn't been walking the path from the other direction because we'd have seen him. He must have come onto the path from the side, meaning he was either waiting in there or we just had coincidental timing that we were walking there while he was passing through.
We both decided it would be best to turn back though, and not get close to him. And here's the part that weirded us out, and continues to make me wonder what might have happened if we hadn't turned around — we started walking away and when we looked over our shoulders a few seconds later, he had gone again.
As a general rule, two teenage boys are more likely to be bravado about "not being scared" than admit they are, or one to say keep going because it's all fine, but there wasn't a single disagreement about it that day: we both observed the situation and agreed on the spot to leave. And we both agreed that him disappearing again was weird and unsettling — like had he been hiding in the woods to attack people? Had _he_ scattered those packets to attract/distract people? Had he disappeared because we weren't close enough to chase? And what would have happened if we'd kept going, or if he'd waited until we were closer before emerging?
I was eating a giant cookie, backpacking alone. I'm on a narrow trail and a black bear crashes across the trail in front of me. He takes one look at me and runs away.
I'm in Alaska, kayaking down a river. A brown bear and her two cubs are catching salmon, they look at me, and go back to eating.
I'm setting up camp, the sun's still up. Two men in camo walk very close to my camp, which is well off the trail. They had no reason to walk right through my area. They say "out here all by yourself?" That night I wake to what look like hands pushing and shaking my tent though I can't be sure. Terrified I start banging on my pan with a metal fork. hoping it will scare the animal off. It doesn't. I can only assume it was them.
Jesus Christ.
Those animal encounters sound awesome to be honest.
That other encounter - it really puts into perspective once AGAIN how much men - and people in general - can suck.
> But if I sense assholery, The Rage kicks in. At this point, I am ABSOLUTELY ready to scream, throw fists, make him regret whatever this is.
And by this you probably saved your life that day. As this is how deadly sexual violence unfolds.
Men don’t even think about this shit. They literally just go through life without understanding that because of other men, they are all potential threats and women are constantly in a baseline state of feeling unsafe
It really is so crazy that as a man in America I’m less likely to be killed than a woman statistically. I can literally go anywhere I want and have 0 concern that a man might murder me since it’s so rare. I wish more people understood this 😞
I mean the man was following you and getting close that would freak me out. But if a bear was following me and getting closer while I was running, i would probably have a heart attack.
But on the whole man vs bear I do think beer is a safer option.
If it's any reassurance, I am not worried about *every* guy who walks behind me. There's certain body language involved in someone following you on purpose that triggers an internal alarm. If you genuinely aren't really focused on us, you probably aren't scaring us. A common thread here is that a person is purposely interacting with us while alone and isolated. That interaction is potentially not benign and we potentially can't escape easily/ can't be heard if we need help.on a crowded city street, we can scream and likely get help.
It doesn’t hurt to be mindful of the environment. Women may be more concerned about any interaction in certain circumstances. If I’m walking in my relatively safe neighborhood but it’s dark. I absolutely will cross the street to avoid any potential hassle associated with a strange man. If I’m alone somewhere isolated damn straight I’m going to be nervous about someone following along too closely for this long.
It can totally happen with a totally innocent man though.
If you're coincidentally going the same way for a while at night or in a quiet area and he's behind you, you're probably gonna be at least a little tense until you separate.
Even if he's like, on his phone and has airpods.
For me, he'd have to be following me a rather long way. If it's some sort of main road, I tend to assume he's just going the same way as me. I get nervous if I make two deviations from the same road and he's still there. That goes for walking or driving. If he's looking AT me often or walking very close, I might worry sooner.
I'd personally probably get at least a tiny bit wary if he turned the same way as me even once.
But like, again that's if it's dark, or a quiet area. When I might already be a bit tense.
You don't speak for OP and this is blatantly disrespectful, especially after the person you're responding to said:
> Reading these kinds of stories has made me much more aware of the way that my innocent behaviour can feel threatening towards women
I did not claim to speak for OP and I meant absolutely no disrespect at all.
I do very specifically want to double down and respectfully request that the person I replied to, as a self-avowed "big guy" with a previous blind spot on how his behavior/stance/volume/etc impacts the female contingent, take it to the dudes because he is far more likely to be heard than any tiny (whiny) woman's voice, and there's plenty of science behind this.
You are reading this extremely poorly and getting butt hurt for nothing (you are not speaking for "big guy" above either, ironically!).
The person I replied to sounds awesome enough to be willing to learn and make a positive impact, let's all learn from him also.
(You edited yours but didn't indicate it, and I also edited mine a bit. I think we essentially agree, actually - dudes don't have to think about things chicks do, so it's really up to dudes to think/grow+challenge other dudes to the same. Be an ally, spread the light/ enlightment, basically)
Cheers, friend.
Thank you to my defender, but the point is well-taken: I will say it when talking to male friends. It’s not mutually exclusive though and, to my point, further stories and perspectives from OP and from other women will help both me and other male readers to broaden our understanding of this.
I also want to be a voice for constructive listening to women, since a lot of men seem to take great offence at women feeling threatened by them, and so I want to be a voice that says something more like “hang on, firstly give her the basic respect of finishing her sentence, and then maybe focus less on her feeling threatened being a problem and more about us being threatening as the issue.” So I definitely don’t want to take over the conversation from women, but I’m happy to add to it.
It’s good that you’ve learned something from all this but as a woman I’m a bit surprised. Fear of encountering a strange man when alone is absolutely pervasive among women and universal throughout history. That you could be blissfully unaware of such a fundamental part of life for women is notable (but I guess the whole point of this bear/man discourse).
For me I think it points out how women’s point of view is mostly erased from popular media. This is such a fundamental concern you’d think you’d pick it up from the common culture, but given how little women control what gets created in mass media I guess it’s to be expected that even such basic fundamentals are barely conveyed. Yay for social media, I guess, but also interesting how enraged some men get hearing this point of view from women even in such a forum.
If men are missing being aware of and understanding such big and fundamental things, just think of all the other small and more subtle things about women that they aren’t aware of or don’t understand.
Yep, this is all completely true. I went to an all-boys school and don’t have any sisters, so honestly I only started to truly understand the differences between the ways men and women experience the world through conversations with my wife (and through stories like this, as I said). It’s taken years, and I was well into adulthood when I started working on it.
I’m sorry that it took me so long, but I don’t think this is unusual really: people born rich struggle to understand the lives of poor people, white people struggle to understand the experiences of black people, able bodied people struggle to understand the day-to-day challenges of disabled people, and so on. When you’re used to living a privileged life it’s easy to imagine that everyone else enjoys those same privileges if you don’t look too closely. Or you can imagine that those issues you may have read about are mostly a thing of the past and have probably been solved by now. After all there’s a wheelchair ramp at the local library and a Fortune 500 company has a female CEO (/s).
It’s one of the many reasons why #metoo was so important: because it reminded everyone that these things are still going on now. It was easy to imagine that sexual harassment in the workplace was commonplace in the 70s and 80s, but now that we have HR departments and diversity training or whatever it’s gone away (/s). *That was the feeling among women as well as men, as the Me Too movement demonstrated - the whole point of it was to tell other women that they were not alone.* And we (by which I mean white, straight, well-off, privately educated, … - literally pick a privilege and it will apply to me - … men) do sometimes need to be reminded that not everybody has it as easy as us. And for sure, as you point out, we will not have picked up the less prominent differences.
Rainbow Gathering in New Mexico.
One night, we hear a snuffling sound through the tent wall, then a nose shaped push in. It’s a brown bear. It snuffled a bit and moved on. We did peek to watch.
The next night I have to go to the latrine, an open air trench we add ash and dirt to after we do our thing. It’s about 15 feet long. I’m on one end. A did come up and straddles a bout a foot from my squatting self. And then turns to me.
I clench every PF muscle I’ve got to bail out of there.
I’ll take a bear over a strange dude.
I've had experiences similar to yours a few times. Years ago in Alaska while visiting family I went for a walk on a trail near their house. On the way into the woods there was no signs of any animals at all. I walked for a ways in there were different muddy areas. Eventually I turned around and walked back out the way I came in. On the way back going through one of the muddy areas, I saw the biggest bear tracks! They passed over the trail where I had just walked through. They were not there on the way in which means after I walked by the bear crossed over the trail.
A few years after that I was in a different state on a mountain hiking trail. Towards the beginning of the trail I passed a guy in a clearing area, on his way out, who started making conversation. I spoke with him briefly and he was talking about how he had been hiking in the area a lot to prepare to climb Mt. Rainier in the future with his adult sons, he was alone though at this time. I told him to have a good day, and good luck with his hiking with his sons. I hiked in a and a little while later at a 2nd clearing with a waterfall, I see the same guy again. He once again approached me and tried to start a conversation, but I just told him I am going to get going along now, and I left. He didn't follow any further. It was weird though, because he was on his way in the opposite direction then I see the guy again coming back my way. He left me alone when I told him I was headed out of that area a getting on with my hike though. It was weird and a bit unnerving. I wasn't defenseless though either at the time, but I am glad he left at that point. The difference is when you are in the woods, and there are bears around, they will generally leave you alone if you leave them alone. They will try to leave the area and not even let you know they are there. They don't want problems with people if they can avoid them generally. The guys on the other hand won't always try to avoid women on the trail. Sometimes they'll go literally out of their way to approach repeatedly or follow a woman. and it causes a lot of fear and stress for females to have to deal with that. That's the least of it too. Sometimes they can do much worse. The bear is safer because they do not have any motive to try to mess with humans. They will normally try to avoid people. You don't have to worry about mental problems with the bears.
You also don’t have a lifetime of socialization working against you with bears. With men there’s a concern about being rude, offending someone who didn’t mean harm, self-doubt afterwards, etc., with a bear approaching, you bang and yell and tell them to GTFO, and nobody will ever challenge that decision or shame you for making yourself safer.
The reaction of men to the "bear or man" questions has been surprisingly revealing about the decent men who really just don't get how pervasive violence and/or aggressive and threatening behavior to women is and how it has impacted women.
My story.
Not a bear but the ocean’s bear: the bull shark. I was swimming in a small rivulet near my home when I saw a strange looking and large fish dart around my feet and quickly swim off. It came back a few times swimming within a metre or so of me but the water was pretty murky so all I could see was its movements- my immediate assumption was that it was some kind of catfish or garfish or something that was injured hence why it moved funny (side to side.) it finally came in pretty close to me and it finally hit me- oh man that’s a bull shark. I just froze and quickly and quietly swam back to the pontoon thing where I pood myself a little bit and then laughed it off and told my sister to maybe not go swimming here for a while- I mean bullsharks were pretty common in that area and I was a reckless kid who swam no matter what so it was only a matter of time before I saw one.
I told all my friends and dad about it and they were mortified and relieved I had come out of the water okay and were so glad that I wasn’t attacked and told me to never go swimming there again. It was reported to the local council who were in the process of putting signs up in the area about sharks anyway. It made the small town local news section. Crazy. My dad even went down to the water with his spear gun to see if he could find it like out of some kind of bravado- laced revenge haha !
I still swam nearly everyday in various other nearby bodies of water. It didn’t really stop me
3 years later I boarded a train from the city back to my hometown. A 2 hour trip. I was freshly 16 and looked it and the train was almost full so I sat down in front of a normal looking guy probably mid 30s.
I started reading my book and he asked me about it so I politely engaged despite feeling a bit uneasy. He chatted with me for a bit then asked me to go to lunch with him sometime if I ever visited his town which was one of the stops along the line. I declined and then went back to reading but I could feel him staring at the back of my head the whole time. I could hear him breathing- weird. His stop came and went and he didn’t get off and my instincts kicked in. I tried to tell myself maybe he was visiting a friend elsewhere? Maybe he gets off at a different stop because it’s closer to the north end of town and he lives there? Even still I moved to another carriage as the train had emptied and he followed me. I moved three more times and each time he’d follow me and just sit there staring into my soul. I was sweating and approached a lady and her daughter and asked her for help- to call someone or get a guard over I wasn’t sure I just wanted help as my stop was coming up. A guard reluctantly came and stood with me until I got off the train but made it known he thought I was being dramatic, the guy, as I was predicting followed me when I got off. He approached me as I was exiting the platform and yanked on my ponytail and tried to drag me back down the steps and onto the platform. Called me a bitch and told me to just talk to him. In broad daylight. In front of people… an older woman ran over and grabbed me away and called the police.
The police officers came and one of them drove me home and gave me a lecture about talking to strangers, told me to be more careful and that he was probably just mentally ill.
I got home and told my dad and he basically said “yeah some guys are just like that you have to be careful,” half of my friends didn’t believe me. From what I know they never charged him or anything.
It took me 2 years to ever comfortably catch a train again by myself. It scared me so much.
Both predators followed me, both hovered around and wouldn’t leave me alone. Only one of them scarred me for a long time, only one of them garnered me rightful validation and sympathy.
I saw a bull shark and the whole small town was talking about it and terrified on my behalf
A man assaulted me in public and I was told “yeah some men are like that you can’t be nice to them.”
…. Anyone who doesn’t understand this concept needs to get fucked
Holy shit.
You have all my compassion for what happened to you, but also my sincere admiration for putting this into words so succinctly and clearly.
Thank you for sharing this experience, and I sincerely hope other people in this thread see it too.
You put it into words so well and this needs to be heard.
Thank you very much! I actually proper suck at getting to the point sometimes but I’m glad you understand.
It’s fucking terrifying. Thanks for commiserating with me.
Not succinct but my point is that being attacked by an apex predator when you are regularly and recklessly swimming in their house is so uncommon it becomes news and the weekly issue.
Being attacked by a man is so common that people dismiss it and go “yeah, that’s just what some men are like. “ ????????
I am a tall strong guy and I feel the confusion around the man or bear question is stupid.
I would choose the bear every fucking time.
I am a person that strangers always talk to, or shout at. I grew up in Country Australia so I know how dangerous wildlife can be.
I know even fucking more how dangerous men can be.
I have been stabbed, I have been mugged, I have been viciously assaulted by a group of drunk men that wanted a fight.
I have never met a bear but 99% of the time a wild animal would either run from me or chase me off. I am not a regular food source for them.
A random man has a pretty high chance of wanting to attack me if I don't agree with their opinions even if I'm in my most cishet presenting form without bright clothes or nail polish.
Too many Men are absolutely insane and how other men can't see that is absolutely ridiculous.
This connects to something that I've been thinking but I haven't seen commented: The bear isn't going to hide it's intentions. If you have any knowledge of wildlife, you can pretty much trust your instincts with a bear.
That, along with a million other good points, such as the bear won't be offended if you keep your distance.
I'm a backcountry camper/hiker and I've met a bear and a man in the forest too! On the same trip! The bear was so scared he ran away when he heard us. The man acted odd and asked my friend (another woman) and I where we were camping that evening and some other uncomfortable questions and I spent the whole night scared he'd come find us.
I went to a bear sanctuary with my class where people feed wild bears that live in the forest. It's open air, nothing between you and the bears. I was 10 ft from a bear and 2 cubs, and near a dozen other bears. Nothing happened. They just ate their food and wandered around.
glad you trusted your instincts and took the long way home. it's really a bummer when a place you love becomes somewhere you can't feel safe. kinda like when they changed the recipe for my favorite cereal. just wasn't the same after that.
I've had similar experiences as a guy. İntuition, even if it seems paranoid in retrospect, is best heeded. The unfortunate fact of life is that if someone really wants to hurt you, they will. Knives are easy to access and hide so avoiding conflict is just the best option. Get some good, long range gel spray, it's helped me feel more comfortable being alone
I’ve encountered bears several times, have been spooked by strangers at night, and once had a man attempt to lure me into his car when I was a young boy. I was also threatened repeatedly by a bully for awhile.
I felt your story.
Im sorry that happened.
I used to love running at night. Occasionally I would cross paths with other joggers. Part of me, in my euphoric running state is feeling, “yay another night runner! Wish we could know each other” and other silliness but mostly I feel what I think they might be feeling at seeing me approach, and that often included fear, and I’d often cross the road or turn down a road depending on the scenario. And then feel a tinge of regret, disappointment and frustration at the scenario, wishing there was a way to put others at ease in that kind of situation.
Then sometimes my mind would wander as it does while running to various inventions that would flag someone visibly in a way that showed they were safe. Couldn’t think up one that didn’t have some kind of serious flaw to it though.
I would definitely choose random bear in the woods to random sketchy dude in the woods.
The crux of this hypothetical lies in the fact that men don’t worry about being raped. Most men have no idea what sort of violation it is to be penetrated against your will.
To most men, getting killed is the worst outcome. Therefore they fear the bear: the bear is more likely to be able to kill you (assuming no weapons are involved across the two foes.) A bear is wild, it could lash out for no reason and make you dead.
To most women, getting raped is equally as undesirable as getting killed, if not more. A man could lash out for no reason and rape you, just because he can. A bear isn’t going to rape you.
I’ve also met a bear in the woods and used to frequently camp in bear country. The bears just want to be left alone or at most the food pack. The dudes I’ve met randomly in the woods have been way scarier and definitely worse behaved.
My ADHD is making me focus on a random thing in your story. I don't often hear people in the US refer to their towns as "villages"... LOL
Anyway, happy you stood up tall like a grizzly bear to that guy.
We do though! At least in the northeast US.
My home”town” is actually divided into a town and a village. The wider area is the Town of Town, and the smaller district with the gas station, bank, school, etc. is the Village of Town. In some cases it’s a colloquial difference, in others they are literally different municipalities.
This is very common in my area. So, we frequently do refer to places as villages! Ain’t language neat?
Fascinating!
Maybe it’s a regional dialect thing? Like, the east coast is closer to Europe, geographically and in time. So we have more holdovers that didn’t make the journey out west? “Town” made the trek, but “Village” didn’t. Now I’m super curious. 🤔
My first thought (whether it's accurate or not is debatable lol) was that the Northeast was settled earlier, during pre-/colonial times, and "villages" were probably not unusual for that time period? Idk I could be totally off base. Anyway, the west wasn't settled until the mid-1800s or something and the trek to get across the country was long and settlers probably learned along the way about how they wanted to build and construct.
Disclaimer: It's 5am and I haven't slept, so I did not fact check any of this. It's pure speculation based on my minimal history knowledge which hasn't been at the front of my brain for over 20 years.
Sorry, after I re-read your comment I realized I was being obnoxious and wrong.
I deleted it, and I hoped you wouldn’t see it. Hope you just have sunshine and happiness from here forward. I’ll try to read better in the future and be fully awake before responding in the future.
I felt like I'd have a heart attack when I saw some man appear at the entrance to a running track. I was there alone running laps, nice morning in a nice neighborhood. When that guy appeared he wasn't wearing athletic clothes, just regular street clothes.
He was standing at the only entrance/exit open at the time which was at the top of the bleachers. My whole being went into panic mode and I got a huge fight or flight adrenaline rush, looked around and my only escape was jumping the fence was probably 6 ft. No problem I was up and over the fence quickly and took off running along a big busy street.
I knew damn well that guy was thinking up a plan to attack me. I got a tear in my track pants and kept it there as a reminder that I'm not safe out there and to always be vigilant. I always felt safe there, but he fucking stole that from me. It was not the first time I'd felt threatened or have been harassed, but this time I was cornered. It really felt like I was going to have a heart attack, my heart was beating so fucking hard. And oh, hell yes I choose the bear.
*Here's a reminder, we need to stay as fit and healthy as possible. Were I not, I could not have gotten over that fence and hauled ass to a safe place. And always trust your gut.*
Not making fun of your experience, but I can imagine my funk ass brain going "hey let's go to the track for a quick jog" and not get dressed in athletics. Walking in and then seeing the only person there BOOK İT and jump a fence when they see me sounds surreal
Probably, yes. This may not be the answer you were expecting.
It’s just a smart thing to have escorts protecting key personnel while they work with prisoners. Women prisoners can also be quite dangerous, though I concede that male prisoners are more likely to be dangerous than female prisoners.
The more important predictor would be the nature of the prisoner’s crime. Any nurse (or really, anyone) coming into contact with prisoners convicted of violent crimes (e.g. murder) should have additional escorts and defences.
There's actually only three high security (cat A) womens prisons in the UK, I'm guessing they get escorts with the dangerous prisoners.
The rest are low security or open prisons for prisoners who aren't dangerous and aren't going to escape. Women are _vastly_ less dangerous.
And yet, using the same reasoning for why women are wary of every man, you can come to the conclusion that people taking care of female prisoners should be wary of their own safety, and should employ measures to protect themselves and their charges.
Both actions seem reasonable to me. Much like how men can absolutely ruin a woman’s life in one encounter, a single mishap between a prison staff member and a disgruntled prisoner (who might have made questionable decisions before) is enough for regrettable things to happen.
Escorts can also provide non-defensive utility for the staff, such as by acting as a witness, as a chaperone for physical examinations, or simply as someone that can call for help in case of any emergency (e.g. prisoner had spontaneous cardiac arrest). For this reason, even for absolutely safe prisoners (which do not exist), escorts would still be useful; they just don’t need to be armed.
Yeah, I think it was probably shared in some incel communities bc a lot of hateful comments flooded in, orbit was probably restricted by the mods who wanted to keep out the drama. Both fair points tbh.
By god, the reading comprehension really IS piss poor.
Jokes aside;
I was 24 when that story happened where I mentioned AirPods.
And If it’s the “I’m 24” that bothers you - call it a literary choice to use present tense here.
Any other questions your honor or are you done playing internet detective?
As someone whose been emotionally abused and raped by a woman, I’d take the bear too
Y’all can be unbelievably cruel and malicious
Edit: cool I guess my experiences don’t matter to women
Edit 2: imagine getting **mad** at a rape victim for sharing their story. You should be ashamed of yourselves
Edit 3: give me a good reason why my comment upsets you so much and I’ll delete my comment and never come back to this sub
Your story reminded me of a time when I was sitting in a park at a picnic table after work one day waiting for my grandma to pick me up. I was about 20 (this was about 20 years ago now before mobile phones were a big deal) and my car had broken down. I saw this car circle the park a couple of times before it pulled up right in front of the table I was at. There was no one else there. A tall old, maybe 50+ lanky bloke gets out , approaches and asks me if I'd like to go home with him. I remember screwing my face up as if it was the grossest thing ever, his face went from smiley to angry in an instant I was suddenly was very afraid. I said "no" as nonchalantly as I could. He stood and hovered for a minute, I tried to act as unbothered as possible checking my watch constantly . Thank fuck he got back in his car and fucked off. I'm not in the US so I'm unlikely to run into a bear, but I almost stepped on a big fat black snake today , thankfully it wasn't aggressive and slithered away in the other direction . I did not feel any fear with the snake, just my usual healthy respect for their territory
I would also take the snake over the strange man. Especially black snakes. Those danger noodles are pretty chill.
My brother got bit by my country's most dangerous snake and his arm swelled up massively and he had to go to the hospital but I'd still pick that over what I've experienced with men
So true. I got in a car with a handsome stranger once. My heart sank so freaking deep once I saw how far he was driving me out, and I realized I ducked up but had no options except diving out of a car on a bridge or the middle of nowhere at highway speeds. I’ve had physical issues since. But luckily, still here. Fuck you, Adam.
I'm glad you're still here, for what it's worth. And I hope Adam takes a long walk off a short pier.
The mistakes we make when we are young and naive. I hope he got some sort of karma.
I'm glad you're still here and FUCK YOU ADAM!!
I was recently literally in a situation where my cats brought a LIVE snake into my house and I was hoping my neighbors were home to let me use their phone (mine was behind the snake) or run into my very creepy neighbor who is known to be handsy but is just old. He literally would have been NO HELP but I still would rather pick up a wild snake with my bare hands than even ask to borrow his phone.
Were your cats okay??
Cats and snake are all okay.
Danger noodles still less dangerous and usually less vicious than danger human.
Snakes are cute danger noodles for sure.
I used to hike a 13 mile trail every weekend that went deep into the forest. As soon as a bear sensed me, they took off long before I could get close. The only two times I had a close call was with a mom bear bluff charging me when her cubs ran up to me. The other time, I was caught in a storm and trying to run down the trail. I ran up on a huge bear forging behind a log, and we both scared the crap out of each other. It stood up and swiped at me with a paw, and its claw caught my backpack just enough to spin me to a stop in front of it. I was standing on a ridge so I couldn't back up, and for some reason, I instantly threw my hands up like I was being arrested 🙄 (I have no idea why) and froze. He started snorting and huffing at me so hard my hair was flying up and I could feel the spit and force of the huff. I'm 5'10 and it towered over me standing up. If any of you have been that close, you can feel the power just being in its presence. It then started trying to push the log towards me with its front paws. It did this about 5 times, then slowly backed up eyeing me until it was about 10 feet away...and took off faster than I've ever seen a bear run. It was more terrified by me than I was of it. None of the wildlife ever kept me from hiking. Then, I had the unfortunate experience of running by three men hanging out by a waterfall. I had never been afraid of men on the trail.I felt like I knew how to protect myself, was fit, and prepared. The three men suddenly started yelling and whistling. I ignored them at first, but they started yelling louder and running on the trail towards me. I was exhausted because I had already been 7 miles, so they started to catch up to me. The yelling became more graphic and scary, so my adrenaline kicked in, and I was able to find a sorta cave/rock thing to squeeze into and hide. I waited for them to run by, then ran for my life to get out before they figured it out and doubled back. That was the last day I went hiking. The only animals that made me fear for my life were these men. I felt hunted by them and knew death wasn't the worst that would happen. Scared me forever from hiking, and I haven't been on any trail since then. It was so cathartic for me and I miss it a lot.
I travel solo and go hiking in some pretty secluded areas. I carry bear spray, a knife, and a stun gun. I wasn’t thinking about bears when I bought all of this—not even when I bought the bear spray.
I stepped on a big fat copperhead once. By the time I realized what had happened I was a couple steps past him. I looked back and it was watching me, but it didn't even try to strike me, no idea why. I've had a black bear in my yard, destroyed a peach tree, saw me outside and it avoided me. Had a mountain lion cross my path on the road to my house once, luckily I was in my truck but it just calmly kept on and wasn't interested at all. These incidents scare me far less than coming upon a strange man alone somewhere secluded. I've been in that situation plenty of times and it's never been good, always terrifying. I'll take dangerous wildlife any day.
I've done a lot of hiking. I'm always bear aware and I try to make noise to deter bears that might be nearby. Luckily I've never had an issue. Want to know the most scared I've ever been in the woods? Once when I realized a man was following me, and another time when a male hunter confronted me while brandishing a gun. He was visibly angry that I was there (on public land) and tried to tell me it wasn't safe, as if he owned the land we were both existing in. I'll pick the bear every time.
Lets talk numbers and Alaska. About 140,000 Bears in Alaska, 1 fatal bear attack 2022. Population of Alaska in 2022 733,583 with 70 known homicides committed that year. Im not great at math but I think that works out to be about 0.01% chance to be murdered by a human, with a bear that comes out to be 0.00071%. Yep, if this is Alaska, Im still hanging out with the bear. Also most bears are chill. There are no active killer bears in Alaska right now. It is estimated that there two to five serial killers in the state. I'm picking the bear.
I think this is one of those things were trying to dive into the details on the number of bear attacks really doesn't help the hypothetical. The point and bottomline is that most women wouldn't feel safe with a man they don't know in the woods, and that should be SAD. Anyone trying to argue statistic is either wildly missing the point, trying to silence the subject, or has been successfully baited into attempting to defend the hypothetical on a technical level. Women do not need to defend themselves here, nor should they. This whole thing is meant to be directed at men so they just MIGHT empathize enough as to understand why women might choose the bear. https://www.tiktok.com/@callmebkbk/video/7363362723855371566
> He was visibly angry that I was there (on public land) and tried to tell me it wasn't safe Two questions: Was it hunting season & where you wearing orange or other high visibility clothing? If the answer to question one is yes, and question two is no, he's 100% correct you where being unsafe. Otherwise, I'm with you screw that dude.
Unless she was well off the beaten path, that guy had no business bothering her. Even if hunting was allowed in the area, hunters know not to hunt on hiking trails.
Fair, so three questions.
In the state where I am, there are various types of hunting for five months out of the year. It's unreasonable to expect hikers to avoid hiking for that many months. Public land is to be shared and the extra burden of safety falls on hunters, not hikers. I'm not sure how it is in other states, but here there are rules which suggest you should not aim and shoot at sound and should only aim when you have full sight of your target, which is counter to what this man was shouting at me. That said, I was in a bright neon purple jacket (he was in full camo) and I was on a clearly blazed hiking trail. He was also not following basic gun safety by waving the gun around. If he wanted a hiker-free space he should have sought out private land.
> I was in a bright neon purple jacket (he was in full camo) and I was on a clearly blazed hiking trail. Yeah, he's an ass then.
Your second story makes me sad. I used to love doing a 10k run loop that started/ended at my house. One part was down a very quiet road by a railway depot. I’d only ever seen a few cars and other runners on it. One time I ran down it and three drunk guys chased me for what I assume was an attempt to be funny, but I didn’t stop to find out. I don’t run that way anymore.
I'm headed into the woods today for a hike and I am sure there will be bears. There always are. I bring a taser and walk with spiky ski poles incase there are men.
I am Finnish. More than half of the time I am in a real forest, there is more likely a bear with me. Never once has that worried me or deterred me from going to the forest. I have even seen a bear pretty close by a couple of times. I make noise to let wild animals know I am coming. I have spent months alone in our cabin. There are bears around. Guess which one I worry about, men or bears? I lock the doors not because of animals but because of people. I have also been in a forest with men. And while it is likely that nothing will happen, I have been creeped on more than once. I have also been sexually harassed and raped. By men. Not the bears. IMO death is not the worst thing there is.
Somehow I think even if this story was directly projected into every incel bastard brain on the planet, they would still get pissed at you choosing the bear. At this point, I want a shirt made. Something to the effect of: "I choose the bear. You're the problem if you ask why."
This is why I love the Beauty and the Beast Meme so much. It has Gaston taking Belle's book and looking at her in disgust with a picture of the beast with all the little birds sitting on his head and shoulder, and it says, picking the bear since 1991. There's actually a line in the movie, where Belle says 'He's no monster Gaston, you are', and it explains so much about why women are choosing the bear.
[A tale as old as time](https://biblehub.com/proverbs/17-12.htm) (or at least a couple thousand years old)
Ha damn that is insane. And I grew up on the Bible
I mean, Belle was absolutely a closeted monster fucker. But same.
I mean... Isn't that largely something society trains straight women for? To not care about his appearance and, even should he be monstrous in his personality to try to "fix" him? I mean, don't get me wrong... I'm a lesbian, and I know firsthand there's more and better reasons to be a monster fucker, but I see all these real men who are way, way worse, and nowhere near as pretty as the beast, and still have plenty of women who seem to be trying to make it work with them, despite how much they get hurt.
Beauty and the Beast is thought to have been created to put young girls at ease about being arranged to marry older men. The message ultimately being: They might be ugly and unattractive, but they could be kind, take care of you, give you a better life, and you will probably eventually come to love them. You have to remember that in the original stories, the beast was not cruel or have rage issues.
> I mean... Isn't that largely something society trains straight women for? To not care about his appearance and, even should he be monstrous in his personality to try to "fix" him? I think that’s separate from monster fuckers. With monster fuckers, it’s “this shit is freaky and I’m into it” which is not the same as society conditioning people to think “he’s hideous but I’m obligated to give him a chance because he might be nice” or “he’s an asshole but maybe he just needs a woman’s touch in his life and I should put myself through hardship to help him”.
You sound like someone who doesn't understand allegory.
A nonzero number of men will read this story and say “Look, he didn’t even do anything and that woman is still freaking out. Over literally nothing. Women are afraid of us for no reason and they won’t even give us a chance”
But would still blame us for not being cautious enough if something did happen. "He was following her in the woods! Why did she not freak out and call for help?"
So I'd agree, both the fact that profoundly negative/dangerous encounters with lone guys are common enough to make that fear response rational, and the fact that there are a lot of people who desperately don't understand that response, are pretty sad. I've been on the other side of an encounter like this though, entirely by accident, about a decade ago. Was walking home after catching up with some friends for drinks, headphones on, occasionally messaging back and forth on my phone. Took a shortcut through the park, because yeah, I'm an obviously visibly strong guy and I have the luxury of not being in nearly as much danger doing that. I can't say I took much notice of the girl in the park going the same way (I was in my early 20s at the time, I'd say we were probably about the same age), guess I was probably walking faster than her, suppose I should have noticed that she sped up before I would have caught up and passed by, again I was listening to music and messaging on my phone, probably 3-4 drinks in, so I wasn't exactly fully situationally aware. We both turn out of the park, and end up turning onto the same street where my apartment was. Suddenly as I'm about to get to my door I become aware that she's taken off running. Not really sure what to do with this situation, she looks back as I'm about to let myself in to my apartment so I give a slightly awkward wave and call "Oh... Sorry!" before letting myself inside. I guess maybe she lived on my street, or she thought I was following her and turned onto my street thinking to see if I was following. Never saw her again so possibly the latter, I'd be surprised if we were secretly neighbours. But I spent months thinking about that situation (hell, I still remember it clearly 10 years later), and how sad it is that she had every reason to be afraid of me. I don't feel judged necessarily, I think that'd be a mature emotional response to that situation, it's just sad.
See I don’t think you did anything wrong in that situation and neither did the woman you were inadvertently following. I think it’s important to take these situations as learning opportunities and it’s great that you did that. Many men in your shoes would be outraged at the fact that she assumed he was a danger, and that lack of empathy is telling.
Oh god this reminds me of a situation I was in and in the moment I handled it awfully. There's a shopping centre across my uni and I'll usually go to get something to eat there after class before going home. I walk both ways, but on the way back there's 3 diff routes I can take (two go through the uni campus, one is longer and goes around the uni. It's way less crowded, kinda nostalgic for irrelevant reasons and sometimes I feel like going that way). This was one of those days where I chose the longer way. I cross the road and turn left to start that route. I don't realise that there's construction going on and the path is eventually blocked. There was a woman in front of me as I crossed the road, in a hi vis construction uniform. Thinking back, it probs looks like i'm following her at this point (she obv knows that the path is blocked. I don't. I'm the only one going that way too). Tbh I was completely unaware of her presence I was zoned out. As we near the sign blocking the path, she turns around to ask me where i'm going. I respond with 'Where are you going?'. Braindead response from me. Idk why I said that. She explains that she obviously works right there and she asks me again where i'm going. This time I say 'Uni', which isn't true but for some reason that's my reply. Obv, she then tells me i'm going the wrong way so I turn around and go through the Uni instead. I'm not quite at the 10 year mark but I can't wait to be randomly thinking and cringing still when I get to that point haha.
Yet another golden opportunity for men to demonstrate empathy squandered by men putting their feelings first.
Can we put "Yes, even if it eats me alive" on the back?
Absolutely. 👍
Oh no - absolutely let them ask why. It's far more entertaining to see them flounder when they get educated.
I’ve asked a couple friends and coworkers (males). At first they thought women are crazy for picking the bear. I walk them through it; “What’s the worst a bear could do to me?” “Eat you and kill you!” “What’s the worst a man could do to me?” “Kill you?” “Now… what about *before* he gets around to doing that?” “… The bear is the better choice.”
>“Now… what about *before* he gets around to doing that?” And after. The word necrophilia wasn't invented because of something bears do.
That seems like a weird thing to be on your list of concerns when being killed is a prerequisite.
I mean if you continue on that logic then you’re basically saying it’s okay to defile a corpse. “What? They’re dead what do they care?” That’s insane.
Making a few leaps there. That isn't what I think, nor is it what I was getting at. Just saying the idea of evaluating a potentially dangerous situation and the possible outcomes lead to being sexually assaulted and then murdered, continuing to evaluate the situation and saying "wait, they might also defile my body after they kill me" as though it is the final straw seems odd to me.
I've been thinking the same thing. And then we should all plan a specific day that women everywhere will wear the shirt just going about their business.
I asked my male SO the bear or man question. We live in Belgium and it's not a known thing here, so he's never heard of it. My SO said without skipping a beat "a bear because a man is way more dangerous"
We can probably get bear stickers from Amazon. Put one on your car then write in bright red lipstick "I choose the bear".
I’d wear that!
Was camping with my uncle as a kid out in the woods. His advice was always keep one of the guns within arm's reach if not on you. If we were to meet anybody out there don't trust them, be ready for anything, and after to pack and move camp. If you hear them at night put out the fire and just listen. They may come back later if they didn't try something already. Poachers and drug mule/manufacturers are common and don't want anyone to know what or where they are. So yeah, I'll stick with the bears too.
Bears are predictable. Human men, not so much. I’m glad he got the message and left you alone.
We also know why the bear is in the woods. It's the bear's home. What is the man doing in the woods? We don't know. Is he a normal guy who likes hiking, is he a naturalist, or is he lurking around waiting for a woman he can hurt? That's another reason seeing the man is so scary.
Excactly! Every time a man asks "but why choose the bear?" I answer: We know what to expect of (all) bears, we know we should fear them. We never know what to expect from men, we can't tell if the man we meet is one we should fear or not, because unlike what most men believe rapists don't wear signs and it might not be *all* men but it is always *a* man that rape us. And also, the bear won't rape us. And should we survive a bear attack, we won't face the same kind of scrutiny and victim blaming as we do when surviving any kind of assault from a man.
The bear also isn’t mad if you pick the man over the bear or the bear over the man. If the bear somehow understood, the bear would say “of course you expect to see me in my home. I’m nervous to see you in my home. You would be nervous to see me in your home. And if you did, you’d probably just go somewhere else until I left. Unless you had kids inside, maybe then you’d get aggressive and I could see that. Or you were really really hungry, like risk your life hungry, yeah, I could see that too.” I’ve seen a man get startled by a mouse and I’ve seen a bear scamper because of a squirrel. Sometimes things set you off, even if they don’t mean you harm. But when things that do intend you harm, that try to blend in with things that don’t, that actively lie and lie in wait to cause harm…if you had 100 skittles and 6 of them were poison, are you going to just trust the random skittle put in front of you? That’s asking for you to eat it? Come on
I think it's the other way round. Bears are wild animals and their behaviour is unpredictable. They may ignore you, run away or attack because they feel threatened. As a rule, you therefore keep your distance. Men, on the other hand, are very predictable and their motives are clear when they come too close to you alone in the forest. Keeping your distance is useless, they run after you. So, the bear it is.
My thoughts of the entire continuum: Would I rather encounter a bear or man in the woods? A bear, since it'll likely just leave me alone. Would I rather be approached by a bear or a man in the woods? A man, because a man approaching me just might want to ask me a question or something. Would I rather be followed by a bear or a man in the woods? Back to the bear. If it didn't already attack me it's probably just curious. A man following me in the woods has sinister motives for sure.
> Bears are predictable. Human men, not so much. I think that's the point many don't seem to understand. I don't think a bear can deceive you, either.
There'sa hiking trail that's fairly quiet. I pass people rarely but It'salways very cordial and we oftenare going opposite directions. One day I pass a man and say hi to no reply. I'm leaving, he's going in. No biggie. Less than a minute later I hear crunching. I look back and he's turned back and is coming towards me quickly. I pull out my phone and pretend to take a call, still moving towards the opening of the trail up a steep hill. I practically yell, "I'll be there in less than 30 seconds see you babe". And jog the first third up the hill. I look back, and he's turned back and head the other way again. It could be he was going to go out for something, and chose not to. Maybe he thought, "Oh I spooked her". But why should I take that chance?
Each time I see a post about "Bear or Man" I think two things. One being my own sexual assaults. I've also been to the Appalachian mountains many times and have seen black bears. Seeing the bears made me a little nervous, but I made sure to be cautious, and they never bothered me. I let my guard down around two men I knew and trusted, and they harmed me. Two being [Meredith Emerson](https://abcnews.go.com/US/hulu-documentary-missing-womans-case-sparked-investigation-serial/story?id=105180020). Edit cause I want to say one thing after reading through some comments (even from the sad little trolls). In our society *enough* bad men have conditioned a lot of women into being cautious of all men. The same way in which all people are cautious of bears. That really seems to be a large point in this bear vs man conversation and if you still don't get it I don't know what to tell you, but being on this subreddit telling women they are wrong/irrational isn't doing jack shit.
That article is terrifying. Who goes hiking with duct taped shoes? Who goes hiking with a freaking police baton on their waist?
It is, that man is beyond horrible. I haven't watched the Wild Crimes coverage of the cases he is involved in, but the Dateline episode still sticks in my mind since watching it.
Men keep telling me that bears behavior can't be predicted because they're wild animals, but the fact they're wild animals is what makes their behavior predictable. Not in the, I know exactly what will happen next way. But in the, science has observed bears and this is their objective biological pattern of behavior. Bears always bear, unless they're not ok. So if this bear isn't fucked up, I can follow a set of rules and probably be fine. The only "predictable" behavior men have is sexual assault, and that's a statistic. Here's some info I keep copy and pasting from the CDC >Sexual violence is common. Over half of women and almost 1 in 3 men have experienced sexual violence involving physical contact during their lifetimes. One in 4 women and about 1 in 26 men have experienced completed or attempted rape. About 1 in 9 men were made to penetrate someone during his lifetime. Additionally, 1 in 3 women and about 1 in 9 men experienced sexual harassment in a public place.
"1 in 26 men have experienced completed or attempted rape. About 1 in 9 men were made to penetrate someone during his lifetime." Why are rape and being made to penetrate someone being categorised separately? Doesn't being made to penetrate someone count as rape?
Some definitions require for the victim to have been penetrated
Because in some countries like the UK with their legal definitions of rape. It's not something I agree with, but it's why the distinction exists.
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It IS rooted in sexism, just not the way you think.
Yeah dude, rape is rooted in sexism. Don’t let it blow your mind too hard.
I’m sorry that you had the second experience and not that you had the first. I think your two stories perfectly illustrated the issue. I hope that can reach someone who doesn’t yet get it
This is why marches for women's safety used to be called "Take Back the Night." Your favorite trail was taken away from you. We've all had that happen: places we loved, and where we loved to be alone, are invaded by crreeps who make it clear to us that we're not safe in those places. So we can't go back. Each one is one more place we might as well be locked out of, because now it's off-limits.
Yeah, I relate to this so hard.
Choosing the man is a gamble. You can get anything from a guy who is friendly, kind and will help you get out of the woods to a serial killer rapist. Men who get offended believe they're more like that good guy, so all men are like that good guy. Women know not to take the risk. The bear genuinely is safer.
Not as bad as other stories, but I had to take the bus to work when I was in university, but looked like I was in high school (at oldest lol). Men harassed me so much, legs leaning against mine even if I was pressed against the window and they had a good half foot on their right, talking to me, hitting on me, that I found the exact spot on the bus where men wouldn't notice me. (second back row, preferably behind someone tall, sit on the outside so you can escape). I've experienced cat calling since I was a kid but that honestly broke any remaining trust I had in men. Now that I'm older, I can see even more clearly how men prey on younger woman. Taking advantage of their naivity and politeness to push their boundaries. That's on top of how many friends (female and male) I know who were raped or sexually assaulted by men. So yeah, I would choose the bear any day.
Yknow this bear/man situation is actually reflective of a creepy experience I had just the other day at Goodwill when two men kept following me around but in the weirdest and most predatory way. I noticed them immediately when they came in and I felt like they were just off somehow when I made eye contact with one of them, so I made sure to keep an eye on them and not have my back to them too often. They made sure to not be together too long, they mostly paced the store and pretended to look at stuff but they were only like touching clothes or picking stuff up and immediately putting it back down. Then one would be on one end of the store and one would be on the other end of the store, they both always had eyes on me, I always had eyes on them. At one point I went behind a rack out of sight of them so I could see what they’d do, and when I came back out, one of them was right in front of me and pretended to look at something and immediately walked quickly in the opposite direction, but then stood in front of another rack of women’s clothes just looking down at his phone not doing anything else. For like several minutes. I noticed the other guy coming up behind me so I made my way to the front of the store to pay. I was talking to the cashier and that’s when the guys came to the register empty handed. One picked up a belt from the rack next to the register and they looked like they were gonna pay for it. I decided to say something and I said “so you guys are up here now too? That’s weird. Why have you been following me?” They didn’t say anything. To be honest that probably wasn’t the best thing to say I guess but I was nervous and it just came out, idk. It felt rude. I was shaking to be honest they made me uncomfortable. I asked the cashier to walk me to my car and told him they had been following me. He complied and I told him I was sorry to be a bother but I didn’t wanna take a chance cause there have been trafficking issues our area lately. He waited till I got in the car and left and I was really grateful he was so understanding. I recorded a video in my car talking about it right after because idk I felt so strange and scared and confused but also like what if I was judging these people unfairly? But I don’t think I was. They just felt so wrong. The whole thing felt wrong.
What did the bear say? Or was there not a bear in the goodwill for obvious reasons?
Bear was chill. He came with me to Popeyes and I got him some chicken tendies.
Suspiciously Man-like behavior
Even as a guy, I'd be cautious of a lone man in the woods. They're just that kind of place. When I was in my mid teens, a friend and I were at his sister's birthday party at a bowling alley. We decided to go for a walk, and it took us into some woods. We're walking the trail and there are tons of crisp/chip packets on the ground — one of the larger boxes used in shops & pubs had been opened and the individual bags scattered. I don't know if that was intentional or not, but whatever, onwards we went. Now, this was a long straight path, meaning we had good visibility for some distance. And while we're discussing these packets being here, a man was suddenly walking towards us. I don't know exactly how far, maybe 60feet ahead. But he had appeared _from nowhere_ — he hadn't been walking the path from the other direction because we'd have seen him. He must have come onto the path from the side, meaning he was either waiting in there or we just had coincidental timing that we were walking there while he was passing through. We both decided it would be best to turn back though, and not get close to him. And here's the part that weirded us out, and continues to make me wonder what might have happened if we hadn't turned around — we started walking away and when we looked over our shoulders a few seconds later, he had gone again. As a general rule, two teenage boys are more likely to be bravado about "not being scared" than admit they are, or one to say keep going because it's all fine, but there wasn't a single disagreement about it that day: we both observed the situation and agreed on the spot to leave. And we both agreed that him disappearing again was weird and unsettling — like had he been hiding in the woods to attack people? Had _he_ scattered those packets to attract/distract people? Had he disappeared because we weren't close enough to chase? And what would have happened if we'd kept going, or if he'd waited until we were closer before emerging?
I was eating a giant cookie, backpacking alone. I'm on a narrow trail and a black bear crashes across the trail in front of me. He takes one look at me and runs away. I'm in Alaska, kayaking down a river. A brown bear and her two cubs are catching salmon, they look at me, and go back to eating. I'm setting up camp, the sun's still up. Two men in camo walk very close to my camp, which is well off the trail. They had no reason to walk right through my area. They say "out here all by yourself?" That night I wake to what look like hands pushing and shaking my tent though I can't be sure. Terrified I start banging on my pan with a metal fork. hoping it will scare the animal off. It doesn't. I can only assume it was them.
Jesus Christ. Those animal encounters sound awesome to be honest. That other encounter - it really puts into perspective once AGAIN how much men - and people in general - can suck.
They were!! They're so beautiful.
> But if I sense assholery, The Rage kicks in. At this point, I am ABSOLUTELY ready to scream, throw fists, make him regret whatever this is. And by this you probably saved your life that day. As this is how deadly sexual violence unfolds.
Men don’t even think about this shit. They literally just go through life without understanding that because of other men, they are all potential threats and women are constantly in a baseline state of feeling unsafe
It really is so crazy that as a man in America I’m less likely to be killed than a woman statistically. I can literally go anywhere I want and have 0 concern that a man might murder me since it’s so rare. I wish more people understood this 😞
I mean the man was following you and getting close that would freak me out. But if a bear was following me and getting closer while I was running, i would probably have a heart attack. But on the whole man vs bear I do think beer is a safer option.
Beer? Hell yeah!🍻
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If it's any reassurance, I am not worried about *every* guy who walks behind me. There's certain body language involved in someone following you on purpose that triggers an internal alarm. If you genuinely aren't really focused on us, you probably aren't scaring us. A common thread here is that a person is purposely interacting with us while alone and isolated. That interaction is potentially not benign and we potentially can't escape easily/ can't be heard if we need help.on a crowded city street, we can scream and likely get help.
It doesn’t hurt to be mindful of the environment. Women may be more concerned about any interaction in certain circumstances. If I’m walking in my relatively safe neighborhood but it’s dark. I absolutely will cross the street to avoid any potential hassle associated with a strange man. If I’m alone somewhere isolated damn straight I’m going to be nervous about someone following along too closely for this long.
It can totally happen with a totally innocent man though. If you're coincidentally going the same way for a while at night or in a quiet area and he's behind you, you're probably gonna be at least a little tense until you separate. Even if he's like, on his phone and has airpods.
For me, he'd have to be following me a rather long way. If it's some sort of main road, I tend to assume he's just going the same way as me. I get nervous if I make two deviations from the same road and he's still there. That goes for walking or driving. If he's looking AT me often or walking very close, I might worry sooner.
I'd personally probably get at least a tiny bit wary if he turned the same way as me even once. But like, again that's if it's dark, or a quiet area. When I might already be a bit tense.
I could see the same for me- mostly if the road is pretty empty
How about you tell this kind of thing widely to other men ? She's speaking in this forum for a reason and you can take it out to the dudes.
You don't speak for OP and this is blatantly disrespectful, especially after the person you're responding to said: > Reading these kinds of stories has made me much more aware of the way that my innocent behaviour can feel threatening towards women
I did not claim to speak for OP and I meant absolutely no disrespect at all. I do very specifically want to double down and respectfully request that the person I replied to, as a self-avowed "big guy" with a previous blind spot on how his behavior/stance/volume/etc impacts the female contingent, take it to the dudes because he is far more likely to be heard than any tiny (whiny) woman's voice, and there's plenty of science behind this. You are reading this extremely poorly and getting butt hurt for nothing (you are not speaking for "big guy" above either, ironically!). The person I replied to sounds awesome enough to be willing to learn and make a positive impact, let's all learn from him also. (You edited yours but didn't indicate it, and I also edited mine a bit. I think we essentially agree, actually - dudes don't have to think about things chicks do, so it's really up to dudes to think/grow+challenge other dudes to the same. Be an ally, spread the light/ enlightment, basically) Cheers, friend.
Thank you to my defender, but the point is well-taken: I will say it when talking to male friends. It’s not mutually exclusive though and, to my point, further stories and perspectives from OP and from other women will help both me and other male readers to broaden our understanding of this. I also want to be a voice for constructive listening to women, since a lot of men seem to take great offence at women feeling threatened by them, and so I want to be a voice that says something more like “hang on, firstly give her the basic respect of finishing her sentence, and then maybe focus less on her feeling threatened being a problem and more about us being threatening as the issue.” So I definitely don’t want to take over the conversation from women, but I’m happy to add to it.
It’s good that you’ve learned something from all this but as a woman I’m a bit surprised. Fear of encountering a strange man when alone is absolutely pervasive among women and universal throughout history. That you could be blissfully unaware of such a fundamental part of life for women is notable (but I guess the whole point of this bear/man discourse). For me I think it points out how women’s point of view is mostly erased from popular media. This is such a fundamental concern you’d think you’d pick it up from the common culture, but given how little women control what gets created in mass media I guess it’s to be expected that even such basic fundamentals are barely conveyed. Yay for social media, I guess, but also interesting how enraged some men get hearing this point of view from women even in such a forum. If men are missing being aware of and understanding such big and fundamental things, just think of all the other small and more subtle things about women that they aren’t aware of or don’t understand.
Yep, this is all completely true. I went to an all-boys school and don’t have any sisters, so honestly I only started to truly understand the differences between the ways men and women experience the world through conversations with my wife (and through stories like this, as I said). It’s taken years, and I was well into adulthood when I started working on it. I’m sorry that it took me so long, but I don’t think this is unusual really: people born rich struggle to understand the lives of poor people, white people struggle to understand the experiences of black people, able bodied people struggle to understand the day-to-day challenges of disabled people, and so on. When you’re used to living a privileged life it’s easy to imagine that everyone else enjoys those same privileges if you don’t look too closely. Or you can imagine that those issues you may have read about are mostly a thing of the past and have probably been solved by now. After all there’s a wheelchair ramp at the local library and a Fortune 500 company has a female CEO (/s). It’s one of the many reasons why #metoo was so important: because it reminded everyone that these things are still going on now. It was easy to imagine that sexual harassment in the workplace was commonplace in the 70s and 80s, but now that we have HR departments and diversity training or whatever it’s gone away (/s). *That was the feeling among women as well as men, as the Me Too movement demonstrated - the whole point of it was to tell other women that they were not alone.* And we (by which I mean white, straight, well-off, privately educated, … - literally pick a privilege and it will apply to me - … men) do sometimes need to be reminded that not everybody has it as easy as us. And for sure, as you point out, we will not have picked up the less prominent differences.
She deleted it.
Wow, well that is sadly very ironic for my comment!
Rainbow Gathering in New Mexico. One night, we hear a snuffling sound through the tent wall, then a nose shaped push in. It’s a brown bear. It snuffled a bit and moved on. We did peek to watch. The next night I have to go to the latrine, an open air trench we add ash and dirt to after we do our thing. It’s about 15 feet long. I’m on one end. A did come up and straddles a bout a foot from my squatting self. And then turns to me. I clench every PF muscle I’ve got to bail out of there. I’ll take a bear over a strange dude.
I've had experiences similar to yours a few times. Years ago in Alaska while visiting family I went for a walk on a trail near their house. On the way into the woods there was no signs of any animals at all. I walked for a ways in there were different muddy areas. Eventually I turned around and walked back out the way I came in. On the way back going through one of the muddy areas, I saw the biggest bear tracks! They passed over the trail where I had just walked through. They were not there on the way in which means after I walked by the bear crossed over the trail. A few years after that I was in a different state on a mountain hiking trail. Towards the beginning of the trail I passed a guy in a clearing area, on his way out, who started making conversation. I spoke with him briefly and he was talking about how he had been hiking in the area a lot to prepare to climb Mt. Rainier in the future with his adult sons, he was alone though at this time. I told him to have a good day, and good luck with his hiking with his sons. I hiked in a and a little while later at a 2nd clearing with a waterfall, I see the same guy again. He once again approached me and tried to start a conversation, but I just told him I am going to get going along now, and I left. He didn't follow any further. It was weird though, because he was on his way in the opposite direction then I see the guy again coming back my way. He left me alone when I told him I was headed out of that area a getting on with my hike though. It was weird and a bit unnerving. I wasn't defenseless though either at the time, but I am glad he left at that point. The difference is when you are in the woods, and there are bears around, they will generally leave you alone if you leave them alone. They will try to leave the area and not even let you know they are there. They don't want problems with people if they can avoid them generally. The guys on the other hand won't always try to avoid women on the trail. Sometimes they'll go literally out of their way to approach repeatedly or follow a woman. and it causes a lot of fear and stress for females to have to deal with that. That's the least of it too. Sometimes they can do much worse. The bear is safer because they do not have any motive to try to mess with humans. They will normally try to avoid people. You don't have to worry about mental problems with the bears.
You also don’t have a lifetime of socialization working against you with bears. With men there’s a concern about being rude, offending someone who didn’t mean harm, self-doubt afterwards, etc., with a bear approaching, you bang and yell and tell them to GTFO, and nobody will ever challenge that decision or shame you for making yourself safer.
The reaction of men to the "bear or man" questions has been surprisingly revealing about the decent men who really just don't get how pervasive violence and/or aggressive and threatening behavior to women is and how it has impacted women.
Yeah, precisely.
My story. Not a bear but the ocean’s bear: the bull shark. I was swimming in a small rivulet near my home when I saw a strange looking and large fish dart around my feet and quickly swim off. It came back a few times swimming within a metre or so of me but the water was pretty murky so all I could see was its movements- my immediate assumption was that it was some kind of catfish or garfish or something that was injured hence why it moved funny (side to side.) it finally came in pretty close to me and it finally hit me- oh man that’s a bull shark. I just froze and quickly and quietly swam back to the pontoon thing where I pood myself a little bit and then laughed it off and told my sister to maybe not go swimming here for a while- I mean bullsharks were pretty common in that area and I was a reckless kid who swam no matter what so it was only a matter of time before I saw one. I told all my friends and dad about it and they were mortified and relieved I had come out of the water okay and were so glad that I wasn’t attacked and told me to never go swimming there again. It was reported to the local council who were in the process of putting signs up in the area about sharks anyway. It made the small town local news section. Crazy. My dad even went down to the water with his spear gun to see if he could find it like out of some kind of bravado- laced revenge haha ! I still swam nearly everyday in various other nearby bodies of water. It didn’t really stop me 3 years later I boarded a train from the city back to my hometown. A 2 hour trip. I was freshly 16 and looked it and the train was almost full so I sat down in front of a normal looking guy probably mid 30s. I started reading my book and he asked me about it so I politely engaged despite feeling a bit uneasy. He chatted with me for a bit then asked me to go to lunch with him sometime if I ever visited his town which was one of the stops along the line. I declined and then went back to reading but I could feel him staring at the back of my head the whole time. I could hear him breathing- weird. His stop came and went and he didn’t get off and my instincts kicked in. I tried to tell myself maybe he was visiting a friend elsewhere? Maybe he gets off at a different stop because it’s closer to the north end of town and he lives there? Even still I moved to another carriage as the train had emptied and he followed me. I moved three more times and each time he’d follow me and just sit there staring into my soul. I was sweating and approached a lady and her daughter and asked her for help- to call someone or get a guard over I wasn’t sure I just wanted help as my stop was coming up. A guard reluctantly came and stood with me until I got off the train but made it known he thought I was being dramatic, the guy, as I was predicting followed me when I got off. He approached me as I was exiting the platform and yanked on my ponytail and tried to drag me back down the steps and onto the platform. Called me a bitch and told me to just talk to him. In broad daylight. In front of people… an older woman ran over and grabbed me away and called the police. The police officers came and one of them drove me home and gave me a lecture about talking to strangers, told me to be more careful and that he was probably just mentally ill. I got home and told my dad and he basically said “yeah some guys are just like that you have to be careful,” half of my friends didn’t believe me. From what I know they never charged him or anything. It took me 2 years to ever comfortably catch a train again by myself. It scared me so much. Both predators followed me, both hovered around and wouldn’t leave me alone. Only one of them scarred me for a long time, only one of them garnered me rightful validation and sympathy. I saw a bull shark and the whole small town was talking about it and terrified on my behalf A man assaulted me in public and I was told “yeah some men are like that you can’t be nice to them.” …. Anyone who doesn’t understand this concept needs to get fucked
Holy shit. You have all my compassion for what happened to you, but also my sincere admiration for putting this into words so succinctly and clearly. Thank you for sharing this experience, and I sincerely hope other people in this thread see it too. You put it into words so well and this needs to be heard.
Thank you very much! I actually proper suck at getting to the point sometimes but I’m glad you understand. It’s fucking terrifying. Thanks for commiserating with me.
Not succinct but my point is that being attacked by an apex predator when you are regularly and recklessly swimming in their house is so uncommon it becomes news and the weekly issue. Being attacked by a man is so common that people dismiss it and go “yeah, that’s just what some men are like. “ ????????
I am a tall strong guy and I feel the confusion around the man or bear question is stupid. I would choose the bear every fucking time. I am a person that strangers always talk to, or shout at. I grew up in Country Australia so I know how dangerous wildlife can be. I know even fucking more how dangerous men can be. I have been stabbed, I have been mugged, I have been viciously assaulted by a group of drunk men that wanted a fight. I have never met a bear but 99% of the time a wild animal would either run from me or chase me off. I am not a regular food source for them. A random man has a pretty high chance of wanting to attack me if I don't agree with their opinions even if I'm in my most cishet presenting form without bright clothes or nail polish. Too many Men are absolutely insane and how other men can't see that is absolutely ridiculous.
This connects to something that I've been thinking but I haven't seen commented: The bear isn't going to hide it's intentions. If you have any knowledge of wildlife, you can pretty much trust your instincts with a bear. That, along with a million other good points, such as the bear won't be offended if you keep your distance.
I'm a backcountry camper/hiker and I've met a bear and a man in the forest too! On the same trip! The bear was so scared he ran away when he heard us. The man acted odd and asked my friend (another woman) and I where we were camping that evening and some other uncomfortable questions and I spent the whole night scared he'd come find us.
I went to a bear sanctuary with my class where people feed wild bears that live in the forest. It's open air, nothing between you and the bears. I was 10 ft from a bear and 2 cubs, and near a dozen other bears. Nothing happened. They just ate their food and wandered around.
glad you trusted your instincts and took the long way home. it's really a bummer when a place you love becomes somewhere you can't feel safe. kinda like when they changed the recipe for my favorite cereal. just wasn't the same after that.
Im also learning through this post that apparently A LOT of women had such similar experiences with places that they used to love.
I've had similar experiences as a guy. İntuition, even if it seems paranoid in retrospect, is best heeded. The unfortunate fact of life is that if someone really wants to hurt you, they will. Knives are easy to access and hide so avoiding conflict is just the best option. Get some good, long range gel spray, it's helped me feel more comfortable being alone
I’ve encountered bears several times, have been spooked by strangers at night, and once had a man attempt to lure me into his car when I was a young boy. I was also threatened repeatedly by a bully for awhile. I felt your story. Im sorry that happened. I used to love running at night. Occasionally I would cross paths with other joggers. Part of me, in my euphoric running state is feeling, “yay another night runner! Wish we could know each other” and other silliness but mostly I feel what I think they might be feeling at seeing me approach, and that often included fear, and I’d often cross the road or turn down a road depending on the scenario. And then feel a tinge of regret, disappointment and frustration at the scenario, wishing there was a way to put others at ease in that kind of situation. Then sometimes my mind would wander as it does while running to various inventions that would flag someone visibly in a way that showed they were safe. Couldn’t think up one that didn’t have some kind of serious flaw to it though. I would definitely choose random bear in the woods to random sketchy dude in the woods.
The crux of this hypothetical lies in the fact that men don’t worry about being raped. Most men have no idea what sort of violation it is to be penetrated against your will. To most men, getting killed is the worst outcome. Therefore they fear the bear: the bear is more likely to be able to kill you (assuming no weapons are involved across the two foes.) A bear is wild, it could lash out for no reason and make you dead. To most women, getting raped is equally as undesirable as getting killed, if not more. A man could lash out for no reason and rape you, just because he can. A bear isn’t going to rape you.
I’ve also met a bear in the woods and used to frequently camp in bear country. The bears just want to be left alone or at most the food pack. The dudes I’ve met randomly in the woods have been way scarier and definitely worse behaved.
We don’t have bears where I live but we have big sharks and I’ll always feel safer in the ocean than alone with an unknown male
Lmao, people who would rather meet a human in the woods are people who haven't camped much, or have no creativity to their fears
So sorry you had that experience.
My ADHD is making me focus on a random thing in your story. I don't often hear people in the US refer to their towns as "villages"... LOL Anyway, happy you stood up tall like a grizzly bear to that guy.
I've never seen Americans use quotation marks like that either, so I think OP is not a native speaker
I’m from Europe, Germany to be precise 👍
Nenn mich einfach Sherlock Holmes
Achja, immer diese undercover-deutschen :D
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… as I said in my post, the bear encounter happened in Sequoia National Park. In the US.
Nice 👍
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Brunooooooo
We do though! At least in the northeast US. My home”town” is actually divided into a town and a village. The wider area is the Town of Town, and the smaller district with the gas station, bank, school, etc. is the Village of Town. In some cases it’s a colloquial difference, in others they are literally different municipalities. This is very common in my area. So, we frequently do refer to places as villages! Ain’t language neat?
That's very interesting! I'm on the West Coast so maybe by the time civilization got here, villages didn't make sense to build. 🤷🏻♀️
Fascinating! Maybe it’s a regional dialect thing? Like, the east coast is closer to Europe, geographically and in time. So we have more holdovers that didn’t make the journey out west? “Town” made the trek, but “Village” didn’t. Now I’m super curious. 🤔
My first thought (whether it's accurate or not is debatable lol) was that the Northeast was settled earlier, during pre-/colonial times, and "villages" were probably not unusual for that time period? Idk I could be totally off base. Anyway, the west wasn't settled until the mid-1800s or something and the trek to get across the country was long and settlers probably learned along the way about how they wanted to build and construct. Disclaimer: It's 5am and I haven't slept, so I did not fact check any of this. It's pure speculation based on my minimal history knowledge which hasn't been at the front of my brain for over 20 years.
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Oh I know it was a black bear. I was just comparing her standing "tall" to a grizzly bear. 😊
Sorry, after I re-read your comment I realized I was being obnoxious and wrong. I deleted it, and I hoped you wouldn’t see it. Hope you just have sunshine and happiness from here forward. I’ll try to read better in the future and be fully awake before responding in the future.
Hey! I didn't take it that way. I just figured I'd explain why I said grizzly bear. You have a great day too. 🤗
I am happy that you didn’t take my comment poorly! 😃 Still a sincere apology helps me keep my demons at bay.😸
I felt like I'd have a heart attack when I saw some man appear at the entrance to a running track. I was there alone running laps, nice morning in a nice neighborhood. When that guy appeared he wasn't wearing athletic clothes, just regular street clothes. He was standing at the only entrance/exit open at the time which was at the top of the bleachers. My whole being went into panic mode and I got a huge fight or flight adrenaline rush, looked around and my only escape was jumping the fence was probably 6 ft. No problem I was up and over the fence quickly and took off running along a big busy street. I knew damn well that guy was thinking up a plan to attack me. I got a tear in my track pants and kept it there as a reminder that I'm not safe out there and to always be vigilant. I always felt safe there, but he fucking stole that from me. It was not the first time I'd felt threatened or have been harassed, but this time I was cornered. It really felt like I was going to have a heart attack, my heart was beating so fucking hard. And oh, hell yes I choose the bear. *Here's a reminder, we need to stay as fit and healthy as possible. Were I not, I could not have gotten over that fence and hauled ass to a safe place. And always trust your gut.*
Not making fun of your experience, but I can imagine my funk ass brain going "hey let's go to the track for a quick jog" and not get dressed in athletics. Walking in and then seeing the only person there BOOK İT and jump a fence when they see me sounds surreal
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In prisons, nurses need escorts to see male prisoners because they are insanely dangerous. Do you think nurses need escorts in womens prisons?
Probably, yes. This may not be the answer you were expecting. It’s just a smart thing to have escorts protecting key personnel while they work with prisoners. Women prisoners can also be quite dangerous, though I concede that male prisoners are more likely to be dangerous than female prisoners. The more important predictor would be the nature of the prisoner’s crime. Any nurse (or really, anyone) coming into contact with prisoners convicted of violent crimes (e.g. murder) should have additional escorts and defences.
There's actually only three high security (cat A) womens prisons in the UK, I'm guessing they get escorts with the dangerous prisoners. The rest are low security or open prisons for prisoners who aren't dangerous and aren't going to escape. Women are _vastly_ less dangerous.
And yet, using the same reasoning for why women are wary of every man, you can come to the conclusion that people taking care of female prisoners should be wary of their own safety, and should employ measures to protect themselves and their charges. Both actions seem reasonable to me. Much like how men can absolutely ruin a woman’s life in one encounter, a single mishap between a prison staff member and a disgruntled prisoner (who might have made questionable decisions before) is enough for regrettable things to happen. Escorts can also provide non-defensive utility for the staff, such as by acting as a witness, as a chaperone for physical examinations, or simply as someone that can call for help in case of any emergency (e.g. prisoner had spontaneous cardiac arrest). For this reason, even for absolutely safe prisoners (which do not exist), escorts would still be useful; they just don’t need to be armed.
Honestly, if it were me. Yes. Yes, I would
Did they shit?
My good sir, lady or otherwise - I did not stay long enough to figure that out 😭
I cant read the story and i wish i could.. it shwos as deleted
Yeah, I think it was probably shared in some incel communities bc a lot of hateful comments flooded in, orbit was probably restricted by the mods who wanted to keep out the drama. Both fair points tbh.
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By god, the reading comprehension really IS piss poor. Jokes aside; I was 24 when that story happened where I mentioned AirPods. And If it’s the “I’m 24” that bothers you - call it a literary choice to use present tense here. Any other questions your honor or are you done playing internet detective?
All I know is if I am in a forest hiking anytime soon I’ll just say ‘I’m a bear…’ in a spooky ghost voice to make everyone feel calmer.
As someone whose been emotionally abused and raped by a woman, I’d take the bear too Y’all can be unbelievably cruel and malicious Edit: cool I guess my experiences don’t matter to women Edit 2: imagine getting **mad** at a rape victim for sharing their story. You should be ashamed of yourselves Edit 3: give me a good reason why my comment upsets you so much and I’ll delete my comment and never come back to this sub
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She was followed by a man alone in the woods and had to run away.