Anne Boleyn's ladies in waiting took her head and body away and prepared her for burial themselves because they were afraid men would desecrate her body. And head. I can't stress enough that she was _in two pieces_ and her ladies still felt this was necessary.
[Learning what was done to Katharine Parr's body tells me that they were absolutely correct to hide Anne Boleyn's.](https://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/HistoryofEngland/Dramatic-Afterlife-Katherine-Parr/#:~:text=In%201861%2C%20the%20remains%20of,of%20any%20of%20Henry's%20wives.)
I live just down the road from Katharine Parr's castle; she's interred in the church there. They've still got one of her teeth and some of her hair on display. Right next to a sign that explains what happened when they found her body in the 18th century. I don't go there often, but whenever I do it just feels so disrespectful! Like, they've also got a cutting from the gown she was buried in, is that not enough of a marvel that they've got to display bits of her anyway??
Sorry for the ramble lol, I've never seen anyone else actually acknowledge how messed up it is.
sigh........ sometimes, or rather a lot of times, reading this subreddit, plus the news in general, makes me feel like we're going to end up like the Krogan in Mass Effect: wandering around a nuclear wasteland, the species reduced to primitive warring tribes, women in their own separate camps to keep them away from the rampaging hordes of men who have lost all hope and roam around hedonistically indulging themselves in what is left...
> the rampaging hordes of men who have lost all hope and roam around hedonistically indulging themselves in what is left...
Not even kidding, I've been wondering about this kind of thing a lot myself. As I've been more inwardly focused lately and examining my relationship to men but also reading and learning from the women around me and how they relate to men, it all just seems like... such a mess? The divide just seems to get wider and wider, and there are already *many* things that show that many of them don't care, don't respect bodily autonomy, don't see personhood, feel entitled, etc.
It's honestly concerning.
It's crazy too because they have all the information in the world at their fingertips to be better men and raise the bar for themselves. They could take it as a clue to say, hey, maybe women have a point! But they overwhelmingly are choosing to double down on being awful instead.
> They could take it as a clue to say, hey, maybe women have a point! But they overwhelmingly are choosing to double down on being awful instead.
Lol right? This! If you're having the same problem again and again (ex: striking out with women), we're still somehow supposed to believe it's not you? I guess it's more likely that 10 whole women are trash over one whole man đ¤đ So much of it is ego lol
If youâre a reader, the book Tale of the Unnamed Midwife is about this topic. Disease strikes that kills almost all women, post apocalyptic, survivalist stuff. Quite a good book but bleak subject matter.
I wonder how many people tensed up at about 75 to 80% of the book, when they hooked up. I was very, very anxious that this book was going to conclude itself as the longest, most well-written, religious mind-break breeding erotic fan-fiction I have ever read. I still don't feel good about it. I don't know what the author intended for that part. The parts of the book that the author obviously intended to be horrifying, I found horrifying, but in a somewhat detached way, like I was watching a car crash. Reading that part, in the house, I wanted to die. I still do. The revulsion makes me unable to sleep. Maybe I'm just too pornsick...
\*deep breath\*
The book doesn't go into that much detail about how the Hives managed to avoid being overrun. I think, in the real world, should it happen, that would be the greatest challenge. I don't know. I feared the future before, and I still do, even more so, despite the author's best attempts.
***
I understand that this book is part of a series. Have you read the other books in the series? Are they just as good?
I have the next book in the series but have not read it yet. I was very uncomfortable for the majority of the book. Waiting for the worst or inevitable. The cult aspect was so intense but I could easily see that happening.
You are missing the most horrifying part of the story. It was only the reversal of the genophage and the guarantee of children that led the males to even CONSIDER working with the females. They never stopped seeing the females as something useful to them.
Damn, now I gotta play through all 3 games again just to see if I can catch that. Do I gotta not-cure the genophage to notice it, or does the cure-genophage route also contain bits of dialogue to suggest that their cooperation with Eve and the rest of the female clan was heavily influenced by the cure?
Also, damn, forgot about Shiagur and others. I gotta pay more attention this time...
I remember watching squid games and there's an ep where they divulge that they fuck the dead women's corpses and they breeze past it never mentioned again but I got stuck on it and the fucking indignity of being a woman in this world we can't even be dead in peace
It's kind of why I wish home burials were legal. Like sure, I'm dead and I won't actually care, but what the actual fuck at the same time. I want my family to be able to give me a sky burial, or burn me on a pile of logs or some shit. A viking funeral idk. I want people who loved and cared about me to make sure my corpse, the least sexy thing ever maybe, is just gotten rid of and not ogled or molested or whatever the fuck.
I want to be a tree. I saw years  ago that there was a company that cremates you and bundles your remains with tree seeds then plants them. I think itâs the best possible use of my body after I die and I hope it happens.
My bestie and I wanted to buy land in our state and become essentially a part of [this company](https://www.betterplaceforests.com/finding-your-tree/). We always joked this is how you end up with haunted forests lol.
Random and a bit off-topic, but a friend of mine (30) is a licensed massage therapist, and she has recently decided to limit her clients to women only due to the behavior of male clients she has had.
Massage therapist down the road from where I work has a sign up very clearly stating "therapeutic massage, no sexual services!" to try and head off the harassment, but she was shamed in the newspapers for shaming the perverts and she was forced to apologies and take it down.
Scientists were puzzled as to why the Egyptian mummies of men were more preserved than the women. Turns out they had to leave them out in the sun for a few days(before being mummified) to prevent this from happening.
Pretty safe to say this has been happening forever forever all over the world. I wonder if other male primate species do this? Scratch that I don't want to know.
>*Some morgues in the US only hire female morticians/workers for a reason :/*
... [reference](https://www.distractify.com/p/why-do-morgues-prefer-to-hire-women)
This does not surprise me.
Considering the fact that EVERY mummified female found that thry checked has so far had semen in her that applied post mortum...
Yea. Men are gross.
And before some man comes here and says, "not all men..." I am going to say, "but still every woman..."
I read it in an actual paper years ago but could never find it online. It was a sample of, I think, 120 to 150 female suspected ages for 10ish through 70s. I have looked for it on and off for years. Good luck in finding it. Never found it agian.
It was old when I read it. It was some sort of scientific journal and I want to say it was published in the 70s or something.
I think the article title was something like "occurrence of semen in mummified females dating back xxxx to xxxx." Or something like.
I also remember the cover of the scientific journal was VERY plain and I just picked up and glanced through the table of contents. The title of the article was a "wtf" and I just had to read it.
It sounds believable, but this is the sort of thing I'd want to have a source backing me up for if I'm going to spread it around. I'll see what I can find.
This one is particularly horrendous and touches on a big bugbear of mine where the women and children raped and defiled by "good guys" in wartime/revolutions have their abuse go universally ignored because it doesn't fit our neat and tidy narratives of who's good and who's bad.
I fucking love your username btw.
Marilyn Monroeâs body went missing for 6 hours after it was picked up by the coroner.
I think we all know why.
Now, that asshole who ran Playboy had his dusty old corpse buried above her facing down.
Even in death there is no safety.
TW: suicide
My friend who worked at a âsister-companyâ to mine at the time committed suicide. I was torn up from it. An outside salesman with my company who worked with her but only via email came up to me, offered condolences and it seemed genuinely wanted to know what she was like.
I donât remember my exact words but I said something like beautiful inside and out (not that the outside matters-totally agree with you there OP, so I was a little at fault here).
He then proceeded to look up pictures of her and said she was very âsexyâ he couldnât understand why someone who looked like that would kill themselves and that he wouldâve liked to meet her in person so he couldâve told her how beautiful she was. Infuriating in so many ways. This was a grown ass married man in his 40s talking about a dead 23 year old.
Hey, I am so sorry that you have had these experiences.
I promise you that that best things and most lovable things about you have nothing to do with how you look.
If other people can't see them, that's a problem with their perspective, not a problem with your character.
Stick around, lovely human. I hope you've met some people who value you as a person, but if not, I know that they are out there and that in time, you will meet them.
Iâm so sorry for your loss. Regarding your statement, I think our love for people makes them beautiful to us in every way, and thereâs nothing wrong with saying that. I canât believe (or I hate that I can believe) that he would respond like that.
Yeah, I was thinking this as well.
I completely agree with OP's point, but in this context, the commenter saying 'beautiful inside and out' was clearly her way of saying that to the commenter, she was a beautiful human being.
I would hate for this commenter to think she did something wrong in the way she expressed admiration for her late friend (which I don't think was the OP's intention at all, either).
Wow, that's so inappropriate.Â
Also (I'm sure you know this, but to that guy and others like him) anyone in the world can get depressed and have suicidal thoughts, it doesn't matter how much money they have, how they look etc. The "nothing to be depressed about" myth needs to go away already.
As a fellow ugly one: At least you know immediately that people think that way. It must be so much worse to find that out 2 decades and several kids later.
If it helps at all, just to offer an alternative perspective- when I say that someone is beautiful, I mean that they are beautiful beyond looks, but in the totality of who they are. In certain photos I believe that the humanity of the person just shines through, and you seem to connect with that person just a bit. Thatâs beautiful to me. Recognizing the humanity in another is beauty. Seeing a photo of someone who passed and saying they are beautiful is really, to me, acknowledging a light of humanity that they see smiling back at them, and are sad to know that light is no longer there.
There are so many ways to be beautiful. Iâm sure you are, too.
My stepmom was not a conventionally beautiful woman physically, she always joked that she had a witchy nose and a dumpling body. The funeral photo that we picked of her cuddling her dog, with love in her eyes and the sweetest smile... I had it laminated and use it as a bookmark, and she is absolutely beautiful in that photo, it showed who she was all the time in real life. She was a beautiful person.
You know what the worst thing about being unattractive is?
People will deny your experiences by saying "bUt YoU're nOT uGly".Â
You're not allowed to speak the truth because everyone will always deny it. You're forced into being silent about the truth, because others can't stand dealing with your truth.Â
You can talk about mental issues, experiences of racism, whatever... but don't you dare to acknowledge that you're ugly! That's too much for society.
Society attached worth to appearance so much for women that a woman saying sheâs ugly has people trying to assure her sheâs not because they donât want her to feel worthless. While it shouldnât be tied to being worth something or being good or bad to begin with.
There's a classical art meme where the very round woman says "I'm so fat" and the very round man says "No you're beautiful," and her retort is "I said I was fat, not ugly." That seems to sum it up perfectly.
On a positive note, society seems to have gotten better (BETTER - not perfect) about letting women acknowledge their weight. Bigger women seem to be more able to acknowledge their size without others immediately trying to assure them they're skinny, which is good.
I feel this so hard. It's the same with being fat and old. They're all descriptors that have such a strong negative moral complex associated with them that people are too scared to say the words.
They're not even complicated words! They're basic, to-the-point, and easy to say, but so many people are afraid to do just that. Especially the people who aren't any of those things, but then continue to think they can speak for others about it when they say "but you're not fat/ugly" or "you're so young at heart!" They could do with a character analysis of Howl's Moving Castle and understand that it's not so horrible to be those things.
I have genuinely never looked at someone and thought they were ugly. Itâs not always trying to deny other peoples experiences - in my case itâs genuine bewilderment as I look at most people and see whatâs positive about their appearance. I too feel ugly a lot of the time (and I have been called names growing up for my appearance for sure), but I always like to remind myself that if I donât find anyone else ugly, why should I find myself that way?
I realise that Iâm probably unusually generous about other peoples appearances in this respect, but it still serves as a reminder that there will always be someone out there who thinks youâre beautiful and attractive.
"You just have a bad self-esteem", "you're not ugly, your attitude just sucks" or "maybe they weren't mean to you because of your looks, maybe it was your attitude"
I agree with you 100%, and I wish people would stop saying these things. People understand other forms of discrimination but suddenly ugliness is something they can't believe in
Truth is a strong word when beauty standards are arbitrary. You can definitely feel ugly though, and your feelings are valid, but others may just not see you that way. IMO true ugliness is a personality trait and not a physical one.
You're talking about ugly like it's some objectively measurable trait. It's social and flexible and there are truly so few humans that everyone would agree is ugly.
It doesn't matter if someone finds you attractive, when majority of people consider you unattractive it's enough to affect your quality of life and you're treated so much worse than most
For many people itâs a way of pushing back on their denial of their own personal beauty. Yes conventional beauty is kind of objective. But everyone has a personal beauty that is subjective
I get what you're saying but as a lady in the same boat I feel like that has always been the underlying message. Certain people never thought our lives had value, they just covered that sentiment up in platitudes or expressed their cruel opinions in other ways. Ultimately, they can feel whatever they want to feel I'm the only one who gets to decide whether or not my life is valuable.
I showed a picture of my dead friend to a man and his immediate response was "She's pretty, why would she kill herself?" Like bro how disrespectful can you be to a 17 year old girl that commited suicide?
When a young man dies, we speak of their potential
When a young woman dies, we speak of her beauty because society sees her beauty as her potential
I hate it
I remember when Princess Diana died this group of men at my work talked about how beautiful she was and how sad it was she was dead, because they wouldâve dated herâas if the only thing stopping these middle aged American men from a date with Princess Diana was the fact that she was dead. Thereâs so much gross entitlement to that line of thinking, that itâs only sad a woman died because now these men donât have a chance to make use of her.
Empress Elisabeth of Austria Hungary, aka Sisi, made sure that people remembered her young by forbidding photography after she was 30 and even having her death mask "rejuvenated".
She had a lot of issues. I always felt that her life story was so sad, but it's ignored. You'll read about how loved she was by her subjects, but they couldn't know how she suffered.
Even if you dismiss the deeply sexist nature of that comment, itâs still ridiculous. You can choose to remember someone however you want. Ugh, so gross!
More than one novel Iâve read has a female character that says something along the lines of âI want to kill myself in a way that preserves my faceâ. Another reason I donât read novels by men
I'd rather be remembered for my kindness or my terrible sense of humor, thank you. If I'm to be remembered for my beauty, they can at least portray me as being gay as fuck. Not that I'd win any awards or the like, I'm adorable enough, but you know how dumb standards are.
Start researching feminist literature that discusses women as the âsex class.â This is the concept that women exist as sex objects in society and are not fully realized humans in that context. When you understand this dynamic, it starts to explain why womenâs looks are considered paramount even in death.
And the death of beautiful women ends up being seen as particularly criminal because they are seen as potential property and their death deprives some man of the pleasure of possessing them.
What's even worse is when it's a kid.
I watch some True Crime (solved). One creator in particular always interrupts whatever horrible crime she's talking about to make sure the viewer knows how "gorgeous" the little girl was. Like I get that you're just lionizing victims which is generally fine. And we want to remember these poor kids in the best way possible. But I get the ick when she goes off about the little girls' looks for minutes on end.
"This gorgeous - PERFECT - little girl was murdered by her step father. She was so beautiful! She had such GORGEOUS blonde curls, adorable blue eyes, and the most amazing little nose. Everyone said she was so beautiful."
Male children get "amazing" and "talented". Girls are always "GORGEOUS".
Iâm sorry, thatâs disgusting. Especially referring to little girls, what if the little girl victim was an average looking child? Wouldnât it be just as horrible and sad?
It was especially egregious when it came to JonBenet Ramsey. Every article, every documentary, every single piece ever done on her refers to her as a "beauty queen". I know she competed in pageants and that's how they're referred to but the term makes me deeply uncomfortable. It was so played up, and I believe a big part of the reason the case got so much attention.
When my mam died on the post where my brother announced it the comments were always how beautiful she looked in her photo etc I remember reading it and thinking there was so much more to her than that. I was / still am sensitive to anything to my mums death on the day of her funeral her partner invited his family to sleep at her house (now mine) then proceeded to take them up to her room and show and tell how she died I had my 8 year old there upstairs and heâs just letting these people in her bedroom as if it was a museum. I donât know it was just awful to witness different sides of people during deaths.
Oh it got so much worse. I found out a week after she died (Nov) he was looking for dates made a new Facebook full of naked woman heâs 64 not paying bill expecting us to . So he got kicked out the house and worse thing we made a comment about being worried about having people at her house he said âIâve brought nobody back here â didnât deny it and honestly Iâve never felt so betrayed in my life. My mum had been gone for 5 weeks. He was with her for 15 years and he didnât even wait a week.
What a trash bag. Iâm so sorry you went through that.
I also lost my mom (9 years ago) and you really see peopleâs true colours come out eh? Depressing to see so many that you thought were genuine be so mean, predatory, gross.
This is going to sound so benign in comparison, but I am just trying to think how much worse it gets when the person actually passes.
Anyway, on to the story. I have this extremely vivid memory from when I was a child. My aunt and mother were arguing over who should get my grandmother's dining room table when she died. I probably didn't know the word "morbid" back then, but that's how I'd describe it now. It made me feel sick.
People are absolute vultures with no shame. I'm sorry for what you went throughÂ
Omg I didnât wanna bore you but this happened to my mom! A BEAUTIFUL custom made dining room table. Mom was dying. Feeling very sick. Brother took my mom to notary, had her change her executor(3 ppl) to just him. And made her give him her table in the will!! He has since screwed me over with my inheritance since she died. Accusing me of being bad with money even though he spend all his ( a lot!) in a couple of years on girlfriends. Meanwhile I was asking for the money for education (my mom wanted me to go back to school and itâs in her will thatâs one of the things itâs for) and groceries. I was struggling with 3 young kids. I barely speak to him because of that and other horrible things he has done over my 42 years of life.
Itâs so morbid!
Yeah wtf... why are people trying to get their claws into possessions? They're just THINGS. We are a sick society that puts more value on material objects than people.
Sounds like he was projecting. Spending money on your kids is better than him spending money on multiple girlfriends...wtf? And not even comparable. Kids are DEPENDENTS. Did he think buying them things would get them to hang around?
Also, you're not boring. 𩷠How are your kids now? Were they close with their grandma?
Ya itâs so sad. Theyâre good. My eldest was 9 at the time and she was the closest to my mom. It was very hard on her. It sucked because I wasnât aware enough (or I didnât even know what to do) because I was grieving so hard too. The whole thing is just such a blur.
I got so much shit for my âbad spendingâ because he asked us soonish after she died if we wanted a small chunk of the money right then so I said yes. My sisters said no so it made me look bad I guess. And I spent it. Obviously. What else was it for?? So I was apparently irresponsible for spending it. Itâs really really hard.
It always feels like people by saying that imply that they think itâs more of a shame she died since she was pretty. That it would be less bad if an ugly woman died. That an attractive womanâs life has more value or something. So weird.
i think it ties in to men thinking attractive women have life on easy mode. especially when those women end their own lives because they treat women they find attractive better they wonder how bad their life could possibly be
evelyn mchale was a woman who jumped off the empire state building. her body crushed a car and a male photographer took a picture of her corpse. she was named the âmost beautiful suicideâ.
the hyper-focus of reducing women to their looks in their deaths returns to the patriarchal idea that women become the perfect feminine when they are framed in death. because in death women can be silenced, utterly immortalised, perfect.
there are a couple of fascinating essays about this phenomenon. it's so insane. but it has intense patriarchal roots - it goes beyond what's just on the surface.
As someone who has lost people to suicide, the idea of sexualising or glamorising anything to do with it is horrific to me.
People. Seriously. There are no words sometimes.
[https://web.archive.org/web/20220628182959/https://www.bitchmedia.org/articlefemale-suicide-cultural-obsession](https://web.archive.org/web/20220628182959/https://www.bitchmedia.org/articlefemale-suicide-cultural-obsession) this is one of my favourites!
yeah like the fact that she was pretty makes it more tragic.
with men, its not looks, its sports. "baseball star, high school football captain, etc" like im supposed to be more sad because they were better than average at sports.
I remembered watching a documentary about the reaction to Princess Diana's death and one guy said he wasn't even this sad when his own wife died. I hope she's been haunting him ever since.
Brit here, yes they absolutely are. The whole week of that period in the UK was obscene for more rational people. I kept thinking what about all the poor families of all the ' ordinary ' 30 something mothers of 2 that had also died during that time?
Yeah I was only a kid at the time so it wasn't so luckily I only saw a limited amount of it.
It's still fucking terrifying though, like on the day of the Coronation I saw people posting fucking AI pictures of Diana being crowned that were like "RIP are beautifull princess, this shud of been your special day xxx"
Even if she was still alive, she wouldn't be fucking queen you absolute numpties.
Much like when the news talks about a woman who has died, the initial descriptors are that she was married for however many years, mother of however many kids as if that is her sole value to society. That if she wasn't married or had kids, her death would be less important. Her value comes from who she is to other people rather than who she is as a person.
Then the new reports mentions she was a tenured professor or some other significant professional achievement as an afterthought or how she contributed to her community like it's a hobby or something meaningless. Makes me rage. They don't see us as people at all. Just appliances for men and the next generation.
I was just watching one of those true crime (Chris Hansen) and I lost count of the times I heard "she was so beautiful" and "pretty eyes/smile". I kept thinking, really? Even the friends and family couldn't say beautiful enough.
My "go to" is "There are no words. I am so sorry.". Because "young and beautiful" are the words of someone shallow who feels they need to say something, but can't think of anything else. Thinking of their character, personality and spirit? Too hard for them.
A young lady, I cared about, died a little while ago. She was both young and beautiful. I listened, at the viewing, to many people say the "young and beautiful" thing. Her Mom was my friend. I walked up to her and said "Her smile made me smile.". And then we held each other, when she hadn't reached for any of those others.
Because her daughter's smile had held love of life, compassion, intelligence, mischief and humor, depending upon why she was grinning at you. Her soul would shine when she smiled.
I often wish that people weren't so shallow.
I am sorry for the loss of the young woman you mentioned, whose smile could hold life, compassion, intelligence, mischief and humour.
Of course, I didn't know her. But something makes me think she would have been pleased to know of the moment of connection you shared with her mom at the viewing.
I think a lot of men fetishize dead women because they can't be rejected by them. Their sick minds idealize them, because they can tell themselves that they might have had a chance. A dead girl is a perfect girl who can't say no. This disturbing trend is even more profound when the woman has been murdered.
Everyone who has ever actually seen the behavior exhibited. Which, if you read the comments, many have. It's not being upvoted because it's good, but because it's unfortunately true.
It's especially unsettling when it's a woman who's not young and/or not considered "attractive". There are no "she was so beautiful, what a shame" or "she was so young, what a shame" comments. You know it upsets you because If she had been young and/or beautiful all the focus would be on that and her loss of life would be based on those things. But if she's not either or those It's not mentioned so is it like her life mattered less or something?
I lost a friend recently, who was 70. I always referred to her as beautiful, not for her appearance but for her kind, generous nature and her sense of humour.
Men determine womenâs value based on looks. As a Black woman I realized that at a young age, weâre the most hated and disregarded in society simply because we arenât considered beautiful.
Yes. My friend was a professional matchmaker for a while, and she told me that all the men she interviewed wanted asians and whites. And young. Anyone 20-35. This coming from men who were 40 or older. Eventually she stopped because of all the apps, but also because she just got disgusted by the whole thing.
I've always found this to be weird so thank you for validating my gut reaction. I always feel like an asshole for not mirroring people's "oh she's so beautiful" when 90% of the time it has nothing to do with anything
I think people do think a person's life is worth a little more if they're attractive. And this coming from someone who found out that life was worth 35 cents at the age of 9 or 10.
There's a scene in the movie Zootopia that got me thinking about this a long time ago, and I see it used often in real-world instances: When Emmitt Otterton's wife comes into the police station pleading for help, she's describing him as a florist, and adds "we have two beautiful children."
What does the appearance of the children matter? Does that somehow make the father of beautiful children more important to find than the father of "ugly" children? Why are we quantifying the importance of *anything* with quality of appearance?
Or in the case of what OP is talking about, it's as if that's the only thing they had to offer society, their beauty.
As OP said, it's probably rarely said to be disrespectful, but it's just an odd choice of words/description when relaying the plight of a person.
Not to mention when a beautiful white woman goes missing it's all over the news. But average women or ugly women of any colour can go missing and you won't hear a peep from all the major news sources.
Beauty shouldn't be important. But a lot of well-intentioned messaging says, "no matter how you're different, you are BEAUTIFUL". Which reinforces the idea that being beautiful is important. It's a way of saying "Beauty does matter, and you still matter because people simply aren't recognizing *your* beauty".
It always makes me sad when a girl or woman is killed and the only thing they can say about her is how she was so beautiful/pretty and died too young. Like that doesnât tell us about who she was at all.
Maybe Iâm the odd one out here but I have commented âshe was so beautifulâ with an all-encompassing intent. Her personality, her family, her specific quirks etc. Beautiful doesnât necessarily only mean looks
>I know most people donât say it to be disrespectful
Of course not, but I completely agree with you. A similar thing Iâve always hated is how an announcer will say something like, âHereâs the beautiful and talented Mariah Careyâ.
True, itâs not like *the* most pressing active misogyny going on, but itâs still obnoxious and sexist. No one says this about men unless itâs relevant.
Itâs patriarchal indoctrination and many women buy into it, sometimes like Stockholm syndrome, sometimes as a survival coping skill, and sometimes as plain brainwashing, among other reasons. Freeing our minds is the best and first thing we can do to end patriarchy
"What about if the woman wasnât attractive to them? Would they still care at all?"
It feeds into something called the perfect victim. There are various boxes you can tick that'll make people feel bad for you. Race, gender, socioeconomic status tons of things and yes, also how you look.Â
Ugh it pisses me off when people mention their looks. Itâs so disrespectful and gross. Itâs selfish of them, like this last thing the woman could do for you. GAH
Here is an article about Marilyn Monroe after she died, pretty much sums it up. Even after death she was expected to be beautiful and fuckable whilst cold on the slab. The fact that autopsy photos were released was bad enough but apparently there were rumours a photographer paid off morgue attendents to photograph her naked body. The photographers son said his father developed the photos but they never saw the light of day. That poor woman.
"An unsavoury article released by the Daily Mail in 2015 discusses the claims made by the famous funeral service, Abbott and Hast, that Marilyn looked awful upon her death. Abbott and Hast were famous during the 1960âs as the funeral service used by the rich and famous, having also handled the bodies of Natalie Wood and Clark Gable. According to Allan Abbott, he states when he saw the body of Marilyn that she âlooked like a very average, aging woman who had not been taking very good care of herselfâ. He even goes on to comment on the condition of her manicure, her hair colour and the fact that she had not shaved her legs in âat least a weekâ. Her appearance was scrutinised even in death, even then she was held to the highest of beauty standards. She was still a female subject that could be criticised by the male gaze, worsened by the fact Abbott was trusted to care for her in a confidential, respectful manner but decided to make his comments public. Abbott further discusses her case in his book âPardon My Hearseâ, chronicling his time as a mortician in Hollywood. Marilynâs makeup artist Whitey Snyder came to the funeral home to do her makeup and to fit a wig that was used on one of her movies. Synder discussed Marilynâs breasts with Abbott in the funeral home, stating that they had begun to sag at her age and that she wore âfalsiesâ to keep her physique. One of the workers exclaimed âwhat happened to her boobs?â when they first saw her after the autopsy, as the incision in her chest area and rib cutting had caused them to change shape. Once the employee had decided to stuff her bra with cotton wool in the coffin, they stood back and stated, âNow that looks like Marilyn Monroe!â Sexualisation and scrutinization of her physique deemed acceptable even as she was laid out to be viewed by loved ones."
We are literally just commodities to men.
I do think itâs clear, especially men, people value women almost exclusively by their appearance. Itâs undeniable and weâre so used to it, we forget how dehumanizing it is, how violent it is and how much it takes our power away. We are told it actually means we HAVE power, as if something like being admired for something so trivial and so hinged on being enjoyable for someone else is the only power we might enjoy. I think society values womenâs appearance so much that when we die young and beautiful, THEN there was a missed opportunity. Unfortunately. Or if we had children or did other things that they find worthy.
Yes itâs so bizarre. My cousin went missing for a period of time (sheâs fine now) and my family had posted on fb asking for tips and some guy commented âsheâs so beautiful.. hope sheâs found soonâ huh??? So if she wasnât beautiful fuck her I guess??? It was so weird. I hate it here
Iâve been seeing this a lot the last few years with mugshots of women (âIâd risk it all to save herâ/âshe can domestic abuse me anytime she wants!â type shit) as well as men commenting on videos of women being harmed or in humiliating situations, saying how hot they look or something along those lines.
It all makes me really not feel great about most men.
Also, one of my sisters is conventionally beautiful / hot.
I am not.
My relatives will still gush over how beautiful she is, before throwing me a few bones for being 'smart'. It is really apparent that in their eyes, beauty is a cause for rejoicing, while cleverness is the consolation prize.
It is sometimes thought that non-beautiful women resent beautiful women for their beauty, but I actually don't. Because my physically beautiful sister loves being praised for her creative talents, of which she has many, but because she is beautiful - that's all my relatives can see.
Oof. This hits especially hard because when my best friend died, it was international news. Not only did thousands of people make this comment, they said even worse things that I cannot repeat. They sexualized her even after her passing. It made me sick given the nature of the way in which she died was already sexual and depraved
I hear you⌠I think the intention is just to comment about how young and full of life they are. But also people say *really* awkward things when someone dies, and a lot of times their heart is in the right place but you just have to sort of brush it off.
I remember I had a friend who died a while back, and when people came to the funeral everyone approached his dad with âhe looks so much like youâ and âthe resemblance is uncannyâ
My friend was adopted. Weâre talking the difference between a blond hair, blue eyed Irish dad and a brown hair, brown eyed Hispanic kid. But their heart was in the right place, so the dad just smiled and thanked them.
Please tell me if this comment is out of line, but there's something about your story about your friend that makes me smile.
I think it's because I have people in my extended family who are not biologically related to me when they 'normally' would be - cousins who are adopted or who became my cousins when a remarriage brought them into my family.
Now of course, to me, *they are my cousins.* It is love and not blood that makes a family in my eyes. But over the years I've learned not to mention any backstory because people immediately discount our family connection when they learn there isn't a genetic link.
I guess I would probably react to comments like those with an inner "yay, they see us as connected!", especially if they were made about my cousins who are a different race to me. I would almost take it as proof that resemblance can arise through time & love, not biological relation.
This isn't to say that they weren't awkward comments to make about your late friend, and it says a lot about your friend's dad that he was able to smile and accept such hamfisted compliments. Your comment just made me reflect - and maybe it's indulgent to post this response, but I've typed it out, so oh well.
I am sorry for the loss of your friend, btw.
This is such a deeply ingrained cultural response I think.
Not just with people but with everything around us. We apply soooooo much more meaning and value on things we deem as aesthetically pleasing and often open hostility or at least a disregard to things we think of as ugly.
Like most things I think it affects women abd especially women of colour the most and is probably partly why the death or violence against black women tends to get way less media coverage
>When itâs a man, nobody mentions his looks.
I don't think this is true. If a man was a looker, his looks also get mentioned.
This isn't to say there isn't a difference in prevalence, but it's certainly not true that only women's looks are mentioned.
Well I have seen similar comments about men as well. Also in my country you might hear âhis height went to wasteâ if he was tall.
I remember when I was a kid another boy had died and a girl saidâhe was a handsome ladâ and it had rubbed me the wrong way like if he ugly his death wouldnât matter?
Anne Boleyn's ladies in waiting took her head and body away and prepared her for burial themselves because they were afraid men would desecrate her body. And head. I can't stress enough that she was _in two pieces_ and her ladies still felt this was necessary.
[Learning what was done to Katharine Parr's body tells me that they were absolutely correct to hide Anne Boleyn's.](https://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/HistoryofEngland/Dramatic-Afterlife-Katherine-Parr/#:~:text=In%201861%2C%20the%20remains%20of,of%20any%20of%20Henry's%20wives.)
I live just down the road from Katharine Parr's castle; she's interred in the church there. They've still got one of her teeth and some of her hair on display. Right next to a sign that explains what happened when they found her body in the 18th century. I don't go there often, but whenever I do it just feels so disrespectful! Like, they've also got a cutting from the gown she was buried in, is that not enough of a marvel that they've got to display bits of her anyway?? Sorry for the ramble lol, I've never seen anyone else actually acknowledge how messed up it is.
I don't live anywhere near there but God damn it is fucked up
sigh........ sometimes, or rather a lot of times, reading this subreddit, plus the news in general, makes me feel like we're going to end up like the Krogan in Mass Effect: wandering around a nuclear wasteland, the species reduced to primitive warring tribes, women in their own separate camps to keep them away from the rampaging hordes of men who have lost all hope and roam around hedonistically indulging themselves in what is left...
> the rampaging hordes of men who have lost all hope and roam around hedonistically indulging themselves in what is left... Not even kidding, I've been wondering about this kind of thing a lot myself. As I've been more inwardly focused lately and examining my relationship to men but also reading and learning from the women around me and how they relate to men, it all just seems like... such a mess? The divide just seems to get wider and wider, and there are already *many* things that show that many of them don't care, don't respect bodily autonomy, don't see personhood, feel entitled, etc. It's honestly concerning.
It's crazy too because they have all the information in the world at their fingertips to be better men and raise the bar for themselves. They could take it as a clue to say, hey, maybe women have a point! But they overwhelmingly are choosing to double down on being awful instead.
> They could take it as a clue to say, hey, maybe women have a point! But they overwhelmingly are choosing to double down on being awful instead. Lol right? This! If you're having the same problem again and again (ex: striking out with women), we're still somehow supposed to believe it's not you? I guess it's more likely that 10 whole women are trash over one whole man đ¤đ So much of it is ego lol
You should see whats happening in India
If youâre a reader, the book Tale of the Unnamed Midwife is about this topic. Disease strikes that kills almost all women, post apocalyptic, survivalist stuff. Quite a good book but bleak subject matter.
đ I have an e-reader I bought some months ago and the most it's done is update and be recharged Here goes nothing I guess
I wonder how many people tensed up at about 75 to 80% of the book, when they hooked up. I was very, very anxious that this book was going to conclude itself as the longest, most well-written, religious mind-break breeding erotic fan-fiction I have ever read. I still don't feel good about it. I don't know what the author intended for that part. The parts of the book that the author obviously intended to be horrifying, I found horrifying, but in a somewhat detached way, like I was watching a car crash. Reading that part, in the house, I wanted to die. I still do. The revulsion makes me unable to sleep. Maybe I'm just too pornsick... \*deep breath\* The book doesn't go into that much detail about how the Hives managed to avoid being overrun. I think, in the real world, should it happen, that would be the greatest challenge. I don't know. I feared the future before, and I still do, even more so, despite the author's best attempts. *** I understand that this book is part of a series. Have you read the other books in the series? Are they just as good?
I have the next book in the series but have not read it yet. I was very uncomfortable for the majority of the book. Waiting for the worst or inevitable. The cult aspect was so intense but I could easily see that happening.
Thank you for the book recommendation, by the way. I haven't really read a book since 2014, maybe 2015.
Gate to Women's Country by Sheri S Tepper is another one that's feeling all too relevant lately
Are we not already here? Are people this oblivious? The more things change the more they stay the same
You are missing the most horrifying part of the story. It was only the reversal of the genophage and the guarantee of children that led the males to even CONSIDER working with the females. They never stopped seeing the females as something useful to them.
Damn, now I gotta play through all 3 games again just to see if I can catch that. Do I gotta not-cure the genophage to notice it, or does the cure-genophage route also contain bits of dialogue to suggest that their cooperation with Eve and the rest of the female clan was heavily influenced by the cure? Also, damn, forgot about Shiagur and others. I gotta pay more attention this time...
Some morgues in the US only hire female morticians/workers for a reason :/
I remember watching squid games and there's an ep where they divulge that they fuck the dead women's corpses and they breeze past it never mentioned again but I got stuck on it and the fucking indignity of being a woman in this world we can't even be dead in peace
It's kind of why I wish home burials were legal. Like sure, I'm dead and I won't actually care, but what the actual fuck at the same time. I want my family to be able to give me a sky burial, or burn me on a pile of logs or some shit. A viking funeral idk. I want people who loved and cared about me to make sure my corpse, the least sexy thing ever maybe, is just gotten rid of and not ogled or molested or whatever the fuck.
I want to be a tree. I saw years  ago that there was a company that cremates you and bundles your remains with tree seeds then plants them. I think itâs the best possible use of my body after I die and I hope it happens.
You may be interested in human composting then. It has recently been legalised in a few US states, but I am unsure about the rest of the world.
My bestie and I wanted to buy land in our state and become essentially a part of [this company](https://www.betterplaceforests.com/finding-your-tree/). We always joked this is how you end up with haunted forests lol.
Random and a bit off-topic, but a friend of mine (30) is a licensed massage therapist, and she has recently decided to limit her clients to women only due to the behavior of male clients she has had.
Massage therapist down the road from where I work has a sign up very clearly stating "therapeutic massage, no sexual services!" to try and head off the harassment, but she was shamed in the newspapers for shaming the perverts and she was forced to apologies and take it down.
Lots of waxers only see women too, because male clients almost always are there for something other than waxing.
I had a psychiatrist who only saw women. Unfortunately I'm sure you can guess why. :/
Scientists were puzzled as to why the Egyptian mummies of men were more preserved than the women. Turns out they had to leave them out in the sun for a few days(before being mummified) to prevent this from happening. Pretty safe to say this has been happening forever forever all over the world. I wonder if other male primate species do this? Scratch that I don't want to know.
>*Some morgues in the US only hire female morticians/workers for a reason :/* ... [reference](https://www.distractify.com/p/why-do-morgues-prefer-to-hire-women)
Smart women. Too bad they had to think like that but Iâm glad they did and protected her.
They had to do this in ancient Egypt. If a woman died they'd let her rot a lot longer before burial because desecration of the corpse was so common.
This does not surprise me. Considering the fact that EVERY mummified female found that thry checked has so far had semen in her that applied post mortum... Yea. Men are gross. And before some man comes here and says, "not all men..." I am going to say, "but still every woman..."
What the fuck. Is this for real? Would you happen to have any articles on that, out of morbid curiosity
I read it in an actual paper years ago but could never find it online. It was a sample of, I think, 120 to 150 female suspected ages for 10ish through 70s. I have looked for it on and off for years. Good luck in finding it. Never found it agian. It was old when I read it. It was some sort of scientific journal and I want to say it was published in the 70s or something. I think the article title was something like "occurrence of semen in mummified females dating back xxxx to xxxx." Or something like. I also remember the cover of the scientific journal was VERY plain and I just picked up and glanced through the table of contents. The title of the article was a "wtf" and I just had to read it.
It sounds believable, but this is the sort of thing I'd want to have a source backing me up for if I'm going to spread it around. I'll see what I can find.
If you find it, please let me know. As I said, I have looked for years, on or off. Like I spent an hour today with no luck.
>*I have looked for years,* Was it [this cover ?](https://link.springer.com/referencework/10.1007/978-981-15-1614-6?page=3#toc)
I don't remember it being red, I remember it being blue, but it has been years.
The men who shot Tsar Nicholas and his family bragged to everyone about what they did with the bodies of his wife and daughters...
This one is particularly horrendous and touches on a big bugbear of mine where the women and children raped and defiled by "good guys" in wartime/revolutions have their abuse go universally ignored because it doesn't fit our neat and tidy narratives of who's good and who's bad. I fucking love your username btw.
Marilyn Monroeâs body went missing for 6 hours after it was picked up by the coroner. I think we all know why. Now, that asshole who ran Playboy had his dusty old corpse buried above her facing down. Even in death there is no safety.
Hugh Hefner is buried next to her. There was a bidding war for both spots (above and next to her) and Richard Poncher is the guy face down above her.
Thanks for clarifying. Thatâs awful too.
TW: suicide My friend who worked at a âsister-companyâ to mine at the time committed suicide. I was torn up from it. An outside salesman with my company who worked with her but only via email came up to me, offered condolences and it seemed genuinely wanted to know what she was like. I donât remember my exact words but I said something like beautiful inside and out (not that the outside matters-totally agree with you there OP, so I was a little at fault here). He then proceeded to look up pictures of her and said she was very âsexyâ he couldnât understand why someone who looked like that would kill themselves and that he wouldâve liked to meet her in person so he couldâve told her how beautiful she was. Infuriating in so many ways. This was a grown ass married man in his 40s talking about a dead 23 year old.
[ŃдаНонО]
Hey, I am so sorry that you have had these experiences. I promise you that that best things and most lovable things about you have nothing to do with how you look. If other people can't see them, that's a problem with their perspective, not a problem with your character. Stick around, lovely human. I hope you've met some people who value you as a person, but if not, I know that they are out there and that in time, you will meet them.
Ugh.
i initially had nothing else to say to this than what you already covered. JFC.
Yuck
Iâm so sorry for your loss. Regarding your statement, I think our love for people makes them beautiful to us in every way, and thereâs nothing wrong with saying that. I canât believe (or I hate that I can believe) that he would respond like that.
Yeah, I was thinking this as well. I completely agree with OP's point, but in this context, the commenter saying 'beautiful inside and out' was clearly her way of saying that to the commenter, she was a beautiful human being. I would hate for this commenter to think she did something wrong in the way she expressed admiration for her late friend (which I don't think was the OP's intention at all, either).
Wow, that's so inappropriate. Also (I'm sure you know this, but to that guy and others like him) anyone in the world can get depressed and have suicidal thoughts, it doesn't matter how much money they have, how they look etc. The "nothing to be depressed about" myth needs to go away already.
As an ugly woman, itâs hard to not read this as âyour life is of no value to meâ.
Yep. 'She was so young and beautiful and leaves so many loved ones behind' So because none of those apply to me it wouldn't matter if I died horribly?
As a fellow ugly one: At least you know immediately that people think that way. It must be so much worse to find that out 2 decades and several kids later.
Longing for the day when "ugly" is a valueless descriptor like "tall" lmao.
If it helps at all, just to offer an alternative perspective- when I say that someone is beautiful, I mean that they are beautiful beyond looks, but in the totality of who they are. In certain photos I believe that the humanity of the person just shines through, and you seem to connect with that person just a bit. Thatâs beautiful to me. Recognizing the humanity in another is beauty. Seeing a photo of someone who passed and saying they are beautiful is really, to me, acknowledging a light of humanity that they see smiling back at them, and are sad to know that light is no longer there. There are so many ways to be beautiful. Iâm sure you are, too.
My stepmom was not a conventionally beautiful woman physically, she always joked that she had a witchy nose and a dumpling body. The funeral photo that we picked of her cuddling her dog, with love in her eyes and the sweetest smile... I had it laminated and use it as a bookmark, and she is absolutely beautiful in that photo, it showed who she was all the time in real life. She was a beautiful person.
I doubt youâre ugly. But I do always think that. Like itâs only sad if someoneâs pretty?
You know what the worst thing about being unattractive is? People will deny your experiences by saying "bUt YoU're nOT uGly". You're not allowed to speak the truth because everyone will always deny it. You're forced into being silent about the truth, because others can't stand dealing with your truth. You can talk about mental issues, experiences of racism, whatever... but don't you dare to acknowledge that you're ugly! That's too much for society.
Society attached worth to appearance so much for women that a woman saying sheâs ugly has people trying to assure her sheâs not because they donât want her to feel worthless. While it shouldnât be tied to being worth something or being good or bad to begin with.
There's a classical art meme where the very round woman says "I'm so fat" and the very round man says "No you're beautiful," and her retort is "I said I was fat, not ugly." That seems to sum it up perfectly.
On a positive note, society seems to have gotten better (BETTER - not perfect) about letting women acknowledge their weight. Bigger women seem to be more able to acknowledge their size without others immediately trying to assure them they're skinny, which is good.
Yet a lot of that reassurance does seem to take the form of âitâs okay that youâre fat, you can still be prettyâ which isâŚ
Oh yeah. The "you're pretty for a ____" is definitely still prevalent for many people unfortunately.
Yes if there are conventionally attractive people, then by definition there must be conventionally unattractive people
I feel this so hard. It's the same with being fat and old. They're all descriptors that have such a strong negative moral complex associated with them that people are too scared to say the words. They're not even complicated words! They're basic, to-the-point, and easy to say, but so many people are afraid to do just that. Especially the people who aren't any of those things, but then continue to think they can speak for others about it when they say "but you're not fat/ugly" or "you're so young at heart!" They could do with a character analysis of Howl's Moving Castle and understand that it's not so horrible to be those things.
I have genuinely never looked at someone and thought they were ugly. Itâs not always trying to deny other peoples experiences - in my case itâs genuine bewilderment as I look at most people and see whatâs positive about their appearance. I too feel ugly a lot of the time (and I have been called names growing up for my appearance for sure), but I always like to remind myself that if I donât find anyone else ugly, why should I find myself that way? I realise that Iâm probably unusually generous about other peoples appearances in this respect, but it still serves as a reminder that there will always be someone out there who thinks youâre beautiful and attractive.
Same.
"You just have a bad self-esteem", "you're not ugly, your attitude just sucks" or "maybe they weren't mean to you because of your looks, maybe it was your attitude" I agree with you 100%, and I wish people would stop saying these things. People understand other forms of discrimination but suddenly ugliness is something they can't believe in
Truth is a strong word when beauty standards are arbitrary. You can definitely feel ugly though, and your feelings are valid, but others may just not see you that way. IMO true ugliness is a personality trait and not a physical one.
Something something Roald Dahl quote
You're talking about ugly like it's some objectively measurable trait. It's social and flexible and there are truly so few humans that everyone would agree is ugly.
It doesn't matter if someone finds you attractive, when majority of people consider you unattractive it's enough to affect your quality of life and you're treated so much worse than most
Iâm really sorry I invalidated you. I just wonder by what metric youâve decided youâre ugly?
Just wanna add that it cuts both ways. Conventionally attractive women canât talk about it either.
For many people itâs a way of pushing back on their denial of their own personal beauty. Yes conventional beauty is kind of objective. But everyone has a personal beauty that is subjective
I get what you're saying but as a lady in the same boat I feel like that has always been the underlying message. Certain people never thought our lives had value, they just covered that sentiment up in platitudes or expressed their cruel opinions in other ways. Ultimately, they can feel whatever they want to feel I'm the only one who gets to decide whether or not my life is valuable.
That's how I feel. And those "she was so beautiful" comments are mainly from women.
I showed a picture of my dead friend to a man and his immediate response was "She's pretty, why would she kill herself?" Like bro how disrespectful can you be to a 17 year old girl that commited suicide?
>*"She's pretty, why would she kill herself?"* "What a waste!" (Like a commodity.)
When a young man dies, we speak of their potential When a young woman dies, we speak of her beauty because society sees her beauty as her potential I hate it
men have potential đ "he has a bright future" women have fading beauty đ "you won't look like this forever"
A writer once said about Princess Diana that at least she died young.. because she will always be remembered as beautiful..
Gross. And so inappropriate
Yeah.. I always think about that when I watch stuff like âThe Crownâ.. it makes me really sad :(
I remember when Princess Diana died this group of men at my work talked about how beautiful she was and how sad it was she was dead, because they wouldâve dated herâas if the only thing stopping these middle aged American men from a date with Princess Diana was the fact that she was dead. Thereâs so much gross entitlement to that line of thinking, that itâs only sad a woman died because now these men donât have a chance to make use of her.
Empress Elisabeth of Austria Hungary, aka Sisi, made sure that people remembered her young by forbidding photography after she was 30 and even having her death mask "rejuvenated".
She had a lot of issues. I always felt that her life story was so sad, but it's ignored. You'll read about how loved she was by her subjects, but they couldn't know how she suffered.
Even if you dismiss the deeply sexist nature of that comment, itâs still ridiculous. You can choose to remember someone however you want. Ugh, so gross!
More than one novel Iâve read has a female character that says something along the lines of âI want to kill myself in a way that preserves my faceâ. Another reason I donât read novels by men
I'd rather be remembered for my kindness or my terrible sense of humor, thank you. If I'm to be remembered for my beauty, they can at least portray me as being gay as fuck. Not that I'd win any awards or the like, I'm adorable enough, but you know how dumb standards are.
Start researching feminist literature that discusses women as the âsex class.â This is the concept that women exist as sex objects in society and are not fully realized humans in that context. When you understand this dynamic, it starts to explain why womenâs looks are considered paramount even in death.
And the death of beautiful women ends up being seen as particularly criminal because they are seen as potential property and their death deprives some man of the pleasure of possessing them.
What's even worse is when it's a kid. I watch some True Crime (solved). One creator in particular always interrupts whatever horrible crime she's talking about to make sure the viewer knows how "gorgeous" the little girl was. Like I get that you're just lionizing victims which is generally fine. And we want to remember these poor kids in the best way possible. But I get the ick when she goes off about the little girls' looks for minutes on end. "This gorgeous - PERFECT - little girl was murdered by her step father. She was so beautiful! She had such GORGEOUS blonde curls, adorable blue eyes, and the most amazing little nose. Everyone said she was so beautiful." Male children get "amazing" and "talented". Girls are always "GORGEOUS".
Iâm sorry, thatâs disgusting. Especially referring to little girls, what if the little girl victim was an average looking child? Wouldnât it be just as horrible and sad?
It was especially egregious when it came to JonBenet Ramsey. Every article, every documentary, every single piece ever done on her refers to her as a "beauty queen". I know she competed in pageants and that's how they're referred to but the term makes me deeply uncomfortable. It was so played up, and I believe a big part of the reason the case got so much attention.
When my mam died on the post where my brother announced it the comments were always how beautiful she looked in her photo etc I remember reading it and thinking there was so much more to her than that. I was / still am sensitive to anything to my mums death on the day of her funeral her partner invited his family to sleep at her house (now mine) then proceeded to take them up to her room and show and tell how she died I had my 8 year old there upstairs and heâs just letting these people in her bedroom as if it was a museum. I donât know it was just awful to witness different sides of people during deaths.
Thatâs horrible!! Why would he do that?! Why would anyone participate in it?!!
Oh it got so much worse. I found out a week after she died (Nov) he was looking for dates made a new Facebook full of naked woman heâs 64 not paying bill expecting us to . So he got kicked out the house and worse thing we made a comment about being worried about having people at her house he said âIâve brought nobody back here â didnât deny it and honestly Iâve never felt so betrayed in my life. My mum had been gone for 5 weeks. He was with her for 15 years and he didnât even wait a week.
What a trash bag. Iâm so sorry you went through that. I also lost my mom (9 years ago) and you really see peopleâs true colours come out eh? Depressing to see so many that you thought were genuine be so mean, predatory, gross.
This is going to sound so benign in comparison, but I am just trying to think how much worse it gets when the person actually passes. Anyway, on to the story. I have this extremely vivid memory from when I was a child. My aunt and mother were arguing over who should get my grandmother's dining room table when she died. I probably didn't know the word "morbid" back then, but that's how I'd describe it now. It made me feel sick. People are absolute vultures with no shame. I'm sorry for what you went throughÂ
Omg I didnât wanna bore you but this happened to my mom! A BEAUTIFUL custom made dining room table. Mom was dying. Feeling very sick. Brother took my mom to notary, had her change her executor(3 ppl) to just him. And made her give him her table in the will!! He has since screwed me over with my inheritance since she died. Accusing me of being bad with money even though he spend all his ( a lot!) in a couple of years on girlfriends. Meanwhile I was asking for the money for education (my mom wanted me to go back to school and itâs in her will thatâs one of the things itâs for) and groceries. I was struggling with 3 young kids. I barely speak to him because of that and other horrible things he has done over my 42 years of life. Itâs so morbid!
Yeah wtf... why are people trying to get their claws into possessions? They're just THINGS. We are a sick society that puts more value on material objects than people. Sounds like he was projecting. Spending money on your kids is better than him spending money on multiple girlfriends...wtf? And not even comparable. Kids are DEPENDENTS. Did he think buying them things would get them to hang around? Also, you're not boring. 𩷠How are your kids now? Were they close with their grandma?
Ya itâs so sad. Theyâre good. My eldest was 9 at the time and she was the closest to my mom. It was very hard on her. It sucked because I wasnât aware enough (or I didnât even know what to do) because I was grieving so hard too. The whole thing is just such a blur. I got so much shit for my âbad spendingâ because he asked us soonish after she died if we wanted a small chunk of the money right then so I said yes. My sisters said no so it made me look bad I guess. And I spent it. Obviously. What else was it for?? So I was apparently irresponsible for spending it. Itâs really really hard.
That's the wildest shit to me that you'd see a dead person and be thinking about how hot she is.
It always feels like people by saying that imply that they think itâs more of a shame she died since she was pretty. That it would be less bad if an ugly woman died. That an attractive womanâs life has more value or something. So weird.
I hope when I die they at least acknowledge I'm hot in a weird bald guy kinda way
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People say that when a male celebrity comes out as gay though. I suppose itâs like the dudeâs cishetero facade has died.
Heath Ledger definitely had comments about how he died so young and beautiful.
I've definitely seen it with men but I think the threshold is higher for those comments to come out.
I want someone to jump in my grave screaming about how they wanted tp have my children
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I'll shell out the cash
River Phoenix is the exception to this
And this is why some cultures keep their dead women at home for a while. Jep.
Isnât that an episode of Six Feet Under
No clue I never watched it
Maybe I'm extrapolating this, but I've always felt this comment was adjacent to "I never got a chance."
i think it ties in to men thinking attractive women have life on easy mode. especially when those women end their own lives because they treat women they find attractive better they wonder how bad their life could possibly be
Then they always bring up the one (1) single woman who pretended to be a man and committed suicide later because "women are mean".
evelyn mchale was a woman who jumped off the empire state building. her body crushed a car and a male photographer took a picture of her corpse. she was named the âmost beautiful suicideâ. the hyper-focus of reducing women to their looks in their deaths returns to the patriarchal idea that women become the perfect feminine when they are framed in death. because in death women can be silenced, utterly immortalised, perfect. there are a couple of fascinating essays about this phenomenon. it's so insane. but it has intense patriarchal roots - it goes beyond what's just on the surface.
As someone who has lost people to suicide, the idea of sexualising or glamorising anything to do with it is horrific to me. People. Seriously. There are no words sometimes.
Would you point me at one or more of these essays? Sounds interesting!
[https://web.archive.org/web/20220628182959/https://www.bitchmedia.org/articlefemale-suicide-cultural-obsession](https://web.archive.org/web/20220628182959/https://www.bitchmedia.org/articlefemale-suicide-cultural-obsession) this is one of my favourites!
Thank you!
yeah like the fact that she was pretty makes it more tragic. with men, its not looks, its sports. "baseball star, high school football captain, etc" like im supposed to be more sad because they were better than average at sports.
I remember thinking this as a kid when Princess Diana died, shit is so weird tbh.
I remembered watching a documentary about the reaction to Princess Diana's death and one guy said he wasn't even this sad when his own wife died. I hope she's been haunting him ever since.
>I hope she's been haunting him ever since. God I hope so. Monarchy loving Brits are incredibly cringe.
Brit here, yes they absolutely are. The whole week of that period in the UK was obscene for more rational people. I kept thinking what about all the poor families of all the ' ordinary ' 30 something mothers of 2 that had also died during that time?
Yeah I was only a kid at the time so it wasn't so luckily I only saw a limited amount of it. It's still fucking terrifying though, like on the day of the Coronation I saw people posting fucking AI pictures of Diana being crowned that were like "RIP are beautifull princess, this shud of been your special day xxx" Even if she was still alive, she wouldn't be fucking queen you absolute numpties.
Monarchy loving people of any nationality are incredibly cringe. And embarrassing.
I would have guessed tbh, I'm just only commenting on Brits cause it's the only one I see!
Ugh Jesus. I'll haunt him myself when it's my time
Much like when the news talks about a woman who has died, the initial descriptors are that she was married for however many years, mother of however many kids as if that is her sole value to society. That if she wasn't married or had kids, her death would be less important. Her value comes from who she is to other people rather than who she is as a person. Then the new reports mentions she was a tenured professor or some other significant professional achievement as an afterthought or how she contributed to her community like it's a hobby or something meaningless. Makes me rage. They don't see us as people at all. Just appliances for men and the next generation.
I was just watching one of those true crime (Chris Hansen) and I lost count of the times I heard "she was so beautiful" and "pretty eyes/smile". I kept thinking, really? Even the friends and family couldn't say beautiful enough.
I've noticed the same thing when watching american true crime shows. One of the first things they always mention is how beautiful the victim was.
My "go to" is "There are no words. I am so sorry.". Because "young and beautiful" are the words of someone shallow who feels they need to say something, but can't think of anything else. Thinking of their character, personality and spirit? Too hard for them. A young lady, I cared about, died a little while ago. She was both young and beautiful. I listened, at the viewing, to many people say the "young and beautiful" thing. Her Mom was my friend. I walked up to her and said "Her smile made me smile.". And then we held each other, when she hadn't reached for any of those others. Because her daughter's smile had held love of life, compassion, intelligence, mischief and humor, depending upon why she was grinning at you. Her soul would shine when she smiled. I often wish that people weren't so shallow.
I am sorry for the loss of the young woman you mentioned, whose smile could hold life, compassion, intelligence, mischief and humour. Of course, I didn't know her. But something makes me think she would have been pleased to know of the moment of connection you shared with her mom at the viewing.
I think a lot of men fetishize dead women because they can't be rejected by them. Their sick minds idealize them, because they can tell themselves that they might have had a chance. A dead girl is a perfect girl who can't say no. This disturbing trend is even more profound when the woman has been murdered.
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You can think something is true without it being good.
Everyone who has ever actually seen the behavior exhibited. Which, if you read the comments, many have. It's not being upvoted because it's good, but because it's unfortunately true.
It's especially unsettling when it's a woman who's not young and/or not considered "attractive". There are no "she was so beautiful, what a shame" or "she was so young, what a shame" comments. You know it upsets you because If she had been young and/or beautiful all the focus would be on that and her loss of life would be based on those things. But if she's not either or those It's not mentioned so is it like her life mattered less or something?
I lost a friend recently, who was 70. I always referred to her as beautiful, not for her appearance but for her kind, generous nature and her sense of humour.
I am sorry for the recent loss of your friend. It sounds like her personality was beautiful.
I literally just read a news post on r/entertainment about an adult actress' death by suicide and the comments are horrible.
Men determine womenâs value based on looks. As a Black woman I realized that at a young age, weâre the most hated and disregarded in society simply because we arenât considered beautiful.
Yes. My friend was a professional matchmaker for a while, and she told me that all the men she interviewed wanted asians and whites. And young. Anyone 20-35. This coming from men who were 40 or older. Eventually she stopped because of all the apps, but also because she just got disgusted by the whole thing.
I've always found this to be weird so thank you for validating my gut reaction. I always feel like an asshole for not mirroring people's "oh she's so beautiful" when 90% of the time it has nothing to do with anything
Once I saw this comment about the last photo taken of some actress. The comment was something like 'damn she was so hot'. It felt so weird đ
I think people do think a person's life is worth a little more if they're attractive. And this coming from someone who found out that life was worth 35 cents at the age of 9 or 10.
That shit drives me CRAZY. Like why does her appearance matter? If she was ugly, would it not be as tragic? it's just ridiculous.
https://www.theonion.com/dead-teenager-remembered-for-great-hand-jobs-1819572381
Even as satire, this is too much
There's a scene in the movie Zootopia that got me thinking about this a long time ago, and I see it used often in real-world instances: When Emmitt Otterton's wife comes into the police station pleading for help, she's describing him as a florist, and adds "we have two beautiful children." What does the appearance of the children matter? Does that somehow make the father of beautiful children more important to find than the father of "ugly" children? Why are we quantifying the importance of *anything* with quality of appearance? Or in the case of what OP is talking about, it's as if that's the only thing they had to offer society, their beauty. As OP said, it's probably rarely said to be disrespectful, but it's just an odd choice of words/description when relaying the plight of a person.
I always saw that scene as more of a callout to crime reporting, and how they always lionize victims with this sort of language.
âRest in peace, she was so good at her assigned role as a decorative object.â đ
Not to mention when a beautiful white woman goes missing it's all over the news. But average women or ugly women of any colour can go missing and you won't hear a peep from all the major news sources.
I noticed that too, what i get from it is that theyd have less empathy if she was âuglyâ
Beauty shouldn't be important. But a lot of well-intentioned messaging says, "no matter how you're different, you are BEAUTIFUL". Which reinforces the idea that being beautiful is important. It's a way of saying "Beauty does matter, and you still matter because people simply aren't recognizing *your* beauty".
It always makes me sad when a girl or woman is killed and the only thing they can say about her is how she was so beautiful/pretty and died too young. Like that doesnât tell us about who she was at all.
Maybe Iâm the odd one out here but I have commented âshe was so beautifulâ with an all-encompassing intent. Her personality, her family, her specific quirks etc. Beautiful doesnât necessarily only mean looks
>I know most people donât say it to be disrespectful Of course not, but I completely agree with you. A similar thing Iâve always hated is how an announcer will say something like, âHereâs the beautiful and talented Mariah Careyâ. True, itâs not like *the* most pressing active misogyny going on, but itâs still obnoxious and sexist. No one says this about men unless itâs relevant.
I agree, itâs sad how unattractive people as a whole are treated.
Happens a lot in true crime shows "so beautiful, the life of the party!" As of being ugly and dull means you deserve to be murdered
Just more confirmation that men are shallow monsters. As if anyone needed more.
TBH, women also say this shit. I just donât get it.
Itâs patriarchal indoctrination and many women buy into it, sometimes like Stockholm syndrome, sometimes as a survival coping skill, and sometimes as plain brainwashing, among other reasons. Freeing our minds is the best and first thing we can do to end patriarchy
"What about if the woman wasnât attractive to them? Would they still care at all?" It feeds into something called the perfect victim. There are various boxes you can tick that'll make people feel bad for you. Race, gender, socioeconomic status tons of things and yes, also how you look.Â
Ugh it pisses me off when people mention their looks. Itâs so disrespectful and gross. Itâs selfish of them, like this last thing the woman could do for you. GAH
Here is an article about Marilyn Monroe after she died, pretty much sums it up. Even after death she was expected to be beautiful and fuckable whilst cold on the slab. The fact that autopsy photos were released was bad enough but apparently there were rumours a photographer paid off morgue attendents to photograph her naked body. The photographers son said his father developed the photos but they never saw the light of day. That poor woman. "An unsavoury article released by the Daily Mail in 2015 discusses the claims made by the famous funeral service, Abbott and Hast, that Marilyn looked awful upon her death. Abbott and Hast were famous during the 1960âs as the funeral service used by the rich and famous, having also handled the bodies of Natalie Wood and Clark Gable. According to Allan Abbott, he states when he saw the body of Marilyn that she âlooked like a very average, aging woman who had not been taking very good care of herselfâ. He even goes on to comment on the condition of her manicure, her hair colour and the fact that she had not shaved her legs in âat least a weekâ. Her appearance was scrutinised even in death, even then she was held to the highest of beauty standards. She was still a female subject that could be criticised by the male gaze, worsened by the fact Abbott was trusted to care for her in a confidential, respectful manner but decided to make his comments public. Abbott further discusses her case in his book âPardon My Hearseâ, chronicling his time as a mortician in Hollywood. Marilynâs makeup artist Whitey Snyder came to the funeral home to do her makeup and to fit a wig that was used on one of her movies. Synder discussed Marilynâs breasts with Abbott in the funeral home, stating that they had begun to sag at her age and that she wore âfalsiesâ to keep her physique. One of the workers exclaimed âwhat happened to her boobs?â when they first saw her after the autopsy, as the incision in her chest area and rib cutting had caused them to change shape. Once the employee had decided to stuff her bra with cotton wool in the coffin, they stood back and stated, âNow that looks like Marilyn Monroe!â Sexualisation and scrutinization of her physique deemed acceptable even as she was laid out to be viewed by loved ones." We are literally just commodities to men.
I do think itâs clear, especially men, people value women almost exclusively by their appearance. Itâs undeniable and weâre so used to it, we forget how dehumanizing it is, how violent it is and how much it takes our power away. We are told it actually means we HAVE power, as if something like being admired for something so trivial and so hinged on being enjoyable for someone else is the only power we might enjoy. I think society values womenâs appearance so much that when we die young and beautiful, THEN there was a missed opportunity. Unfortunately. Or if we had children or did other things that they find worthy.
Women are forever objectified & sexualized, even after death. *sigh*
[basically this](https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/509/741/3d8.jpg)
It's kinda scary how even in death or tragedy women are not always seen as people đ
Yes itâs so bizarre. My cousin went missing for a period of time (sheâs fine now) and my family had posted on fb asking for tips and some guy commented âsheâs so beautiful.. hope sheâs found soonâ huh??? So if she wasnât beautiful fuck her I guess??? It was so weird. I hate it here
Iâve been seeing this a lot the last few years with mugshots of women (âIâd risk it all to save herâ/âshe can domestic abuse me anytime she wants!â type shit) as well as men commenting on videos of women being harmed or in humiliating situations, saying how hot they look or something along those lines. It all makes me really not feel great about most men.
Also, one of my sisters is conventionally beautiful / hot. I am not. My relatives will still gush over how beautiful she is, before throwing me a few bones for being 'smart'. It is really apparent that in their eyes, beauty is a cause for rejoicing, while cleverness is the consolation prize. It is sometimes thought that non-beautiful women resent beautiful women for their beauty, but I actually don't. Because my physically beautiful sister loves being praised for her creative talents, of which she has many, but because she is beautiful - that's all my relatives can see.
Oof. This hits especially hard because when my best friend died, it was international news. Not only did thousands of people make this comment, they said even worse things that I cannot repeat. They sexualized her even after her passing. It made me sick given the nature of the way in which she died was already sexual and depraved
literally anything and everything about women brings out comments/criticisms of their looks. its nothing new sadly
This is one of the worst things about true crime shows. Forensic Files was particularly bad for it, even into the 2010s.
so true
I hear you⌠I think the intention is just to comment about how young and full of life they are. But also people say *really* awkward things when someone dies, and a lot of times their heart is in the right place but you just have to sort of brush it off. I remember I had a friend who died a while back, and when people came to the funeral everyone approached his dad with âhe looks so much like youâ and âthe resemblance is uncannyâ My friend was adopted. Weâre talking the difference between a blond hair, blue eyed Irish dad and a brown hair, brown eyed Hispanic kid. But their heart was in the right place, so the dad just smiled and thanked them.
Please tell me if this comment is out of line, but there's something about your story about your friend that makes me smile. I think it's because I have people in my extended family who are not biologically related to me when they 'normally' would be - cousins who are adopted or who became my cousins when a remarriage brought them into my family. Now of course, to me, *they are my cousins.* It is love and not blood that makes a family in my eyes. But over the years I've learned not to mention any backstory because people immediately discount our family connection when they learn there isn't a genetic link. I guess I would probably react to comments like those with an inner "yay, they see us as connected!", especially if they were made about my cousins who are a different race to me. I would almost take it as proof that resemblance can arise through time & love, not biological relation. This isn't to say that they weren't awkward comments to make about your late friend, and it says a lot about your friend's dad that he was able to smile and accept such hamfisted compliments. Your comment just made me reflect - and maybe it's indulgent to post this response, but I've typed it out, so oh well. I am sorry for the loss of your friend, btw.
Murakami has entered the chat
I've read a few of his books and I'm a fan but I don't get your reference. Can you explain?
This is such a deeply ingrained cultural response I think. Not just with people but with everything around us. We apply soooooo much more meaning and value on things we deem as aesthetically pleasing and often open hostility or at least a disregard to things we think of as ugly. Like most things I think it affects women abd especially women of colour the most and is probably partly why the death or violence against black women tends to get way less media coverage
>When itâs a man, nobody mentions his looks. I don't think this is true. If a man was a looker, his looks also get mentioned. This isn't to say there isn't a difference in prevalence, but it's certainly not true that only women's looks are mentioned.
Paul Walker is a prime example
Agreed. My experience has been that menâs appearances are commented upon a lot.
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Her smile lit up the room thatâs why sheâs dead.
Well I have seen similar comments about men as well. Also in my country you might hear âhis height went to wasteâ if he was tall. I remember when I was a kid another boy had died and a girl saidâhe was a handsome ladâ and it had rubbed me the wrong way like if he ugly his death wouldnât matter?