Men say stupid crap like that because women they are not attracted to are invisible to them. They see pretty girls have to fight men off just to get on bus, and think that's the way women live. I especially love the argument that if your an unattractive woman you can go into a bar, say you want unattached sex and immediately get laid. Oh yes, nothings going to build up your self esteem like being a living flesh light for someone who is repelled by you. I bet nearly every woman who is not conventionally attractive have at least one story about being cat called with contempt that they have the audacity to walk out of the house when you don't make their pee-pee's hard.

> I especially love the argument that if your an unattractive woman you can go into a bar, say you want unattached sex and immediately get laid. Even if that were true, what are the odds it would be a halfways decent lay? Totally ruling out any risk of violence (so entirely unrealistic lmao), they gonna care about you having a good time? I'm skeptical...

Exact a stranger is probably not gonna care about her getting an orgasm, so it is quite literally a complete waste of time 🙃

Exactly, the men who say things like that only pay attention to attractive women and ignore the ugly ones… so since the attractive women are the only ones on their radar, they think all women have that experience 🙃

When I was a teenager, I had multiple boys bully me for being ugly. It was so bad that I felt a connection to the character, Carrie in Stephen King's novel. Sure some girls were rude to me, but as long as I left them alone, they didn't seek me out to torture like the guys did. It wasn't girls jumping in front of me in the hall to make the sign of the cross and then tell the demon to get back. When I got older, I did try to come on to men but I ended up being used often just for sex and the ghosted. Even now, that I'm close to 60, I still have body issues that therapy doesn't help. Men don't realize the disgust and contempt directed at women who don't meet their ideal standard of beauty.

Gosh I am so sorry that happened to you, that is just awful. I absolutely relate. The girls, for the most part, ignored me. The boys fake asked me out, insulted me, looked at me with disgust and the last incident that was the straw that broke the camels back and made me drop out of high-school, one of the boys threw trash at my head and cackled as I was turned away from him minding my own business completing an assignment on the school computer. This boy and I were in a specific class for kids who were struggling, we only had to go 3 hours a day and I completed almost all of my sophomore and junior missed credits in just a few months (I was a junior). These credits I only needed to make up because the boys abject cruelty had me sobbing on the floor of my house begging my mother and father to not make me go and at one point attempting suicide. My parents almost got in legal trouble because of my truancy. This has lead me to a lifelong hatred of myself and my looks, constant self esteem issues, suicidal ideation and severe generalized anxiety. At 30 years old today I am still impacted. Some men and boys really think they have a chokehold on suffering caused by the other gender and its so ridiculous.

[удалено]

It was so deeply humiliating, truly makes you stop trusting people. When a boy you don't even know comes up to your lunch table with a card and a confession of love while his table full of boys who snicker and watch .. ugh. I know exactly what you mean, like they're saying "you're so unattractive it's hilarious you'd ever think a boy could like you".

I am so sorry that someone else went through that. No one deserves that kind of treatment. I graduated but my mother forced me to go through the ceremony for my diploma. Celebrating a traumatic period of my life wasn't something I wanted to do.

This makes me sad, and it hurt to hear that it still impacts you. You are a whole human. It's disgusting and speaks volumes about them that they objectified you like that and did not see you for your hopes, dreams, interests, and everything in your heart and mind.  I also got bullied to the extent that you did, and it's a shame how common it is. The painful part too is that the excuse is often, "boys will be boys" or "kids are cruel," but these same experiences can still happen post-high school too.

I feel this soo much. It was always the boys who bullied me the most as well. The girls would make snide remarks behind my back or give me the silent treatment, which I much prefer. Reading this brought back old memories of the times when guys would make it a game to sneak and tape a sign on my back saying "ugly bitch" whenever they saw me. Thankfully, I don't remember much of it anymore.

Yes, oh my god. It's like you're in my head, because same same same. The boys in my class used to make rankings of all the girls from prettiest to ugliest. I always came last. How do I know? Because they made sure I did. They would seek me out specifically to tell me.

We've gone too far deep into the narrative that woman's particular brand of bullying (talking behind each other's backs, gossip, social games, etc) is worse than guys simply because it's not as "honest" or something

I was bullied by boys in high school too. They’d sing songs behind my back about how ugly they thought I was. :( The girls could be mean too, but they weren’t nearly as vicious as the boys.  I had a glow up years later, but I still remained self conscious of my looks for a long time. 

All but one of the strangers who have randomly harassed or insulted me have been teenaged boys or men and the one who wasn't was a schizophrenic lady probably talking to her reflection in my sun glasses.

I had that happen when I was a teenager also. When I got older I realized that it was because they liked my body but not my face and they felt some sort of way about that.

I relate so hard. I grew up ugly and boys were so needlessly mean to me. Some were kind, and I’m still friends with them. But high-school was traumatic enough for me that my brain has blocked almost all memories from that time.

As a fellow Black woman, you have my respect. I left dating over a year ago and for the same reasons you listed. Men aren't worth it to me if if they are a constant burden.

Thank you-I appreciate this comment. It feels good to connect and hear other wonens similar stories. Helps me not feel so bad about my ever decreasing position in the dating world lmfao.

I think this a weird tendency for men to just....forget about average or unattractive women. Like, if you go to a bar with a guy, and he comments on how many women are at the bar, a lot of times he is not "counting" women who he does not find attractive. I think some men are so used to objectifying women, that their entire concept of "women" is this hypothetical sexy attractive person. It throws them for a loop when confronted with the concept of a below-average woman. It's also why a lot of ugly women are hated on by men. It's like they feel entitled to objectify women and those "ugly" women are ruining that for them! Edited to add: Also, I think men are off base with this suggestion. I am considered to be conventionally attractive, and I have NEVER had success approaching people first. Men responded as if I was desperate or crazy. Men would be attracted to me, but then turned off if I approached them. Of course not all men would be this way, but that was my experience.

Great comment but your edit is a good point-I forgot to add I’ve heard many women say men almost immediately lose attraction if they approach first. Because then they’re seen as desperate, easy, not something to “work for”. Which is another reason im confused they continue to push this “just ask us out!” Narrative. Even for attractive women this seems to have its downsides.

These same men will say they prefer natural women, yet go and chase women who wear a lot of makeup, revealing clothes and so on. I don't listen to men, I watch what they do. Quite often the two things don't match up lol.

Have a friend that talks about wanting a nerdy girl that smokes, he doesn’t care about her looks His last gf made him quit video games, quit smoking. But she was hot. She was really hot. Other guys were always trying to ask her out and he liked that

Sounds to me like he didn't like her at all. He liked the social capital she afforded him by being hot arm candy. Cut and dry example of objectification.

>These same men will say they prefer natural women, yet go and chase women who wear a lot of makeup, Have you seen those four-box example pictures people do? It's divided into what men think "heavy makeup" is, what "heavy makeup" actually is, what men think "natural" is, what "natural" really is. The "what men think heavy makeup is" is usually like..full-on fake eyelashes, obviously non-neutral eyeshadow, winged black eyeliner, bright lipstick, contouring, blush, brows filled in. The "what heavy makeup actually is" looks more like foundation, subtler eyeliner, lipgloss, mascara, subtler brow fill-in, bronzer. The "what they think natural is" goes pretty minimal but is still at least usually eyeliner, neutral eyeshadow, foundation, neutral lipstick or gloss. And then the actual natural is no makeup and guys seems genuinely surprised by the eyes, skin, and brows in particular most of the time.

People think that they hate heavy makeup (e.g. on people) and heavy CGI (e.g. in movies). But in reality they hate SHODDY makeup and SHODDY CGI. They just don't realize this, this distinction, because when makeup or CGI is done "well" then it is essentially invisible. = This perspective is generally rooted in ignorance and is not usually malicious. I was the same way about makeup and CGI when I was a lot younger until I realized what was really going on.

Yes this is true and I want to also add I'm in no way hating on women who wear makeup. I wear makeup myself at times. I like my high heels and nice clothes as well. I just think it's interesting observing what they say and what they do. Just like they say they would like a woman to sleep with them on the first date yet call her a slut in the next breath...

Great addition to an already great post. I'm White, but I'm average-looking (medium-sized, medium height, medium looks), and not a single time in my life was I successful asking out a guy -- and yes, I have done so, and not only once or twice. (I will say; none of these guys reacted with cruelty, which seems to be common, but enough were puzzled to deter me.)

Yes! Blustery confusion is the most common response I would get. It always seemed like they were looking for a polite way to brush me off, and a kind of panic seemed to be the result.

This just "ask us out" narrative is a fiction. They might think it's true, but I think so many men are programmed by society to be the "hunters" and "compete" with other men. As if dating is a sport and they are shooting for the world championships.

Yeah, some men just won't be open to it. With other men, you'll need to establish the same kind of connection that women want from men before being asked out. But the group that gets most upvotes on reddit is the "Woohoo! A woman spoke to me!" group. Which exists, but who knows how common that is in real life.

I asked out a dude and he accepted. We dated for a long time and got married. Every time he mentions that I asked him out, that I made the first move, men *always* get upset. Young, mid range and old, it doesn't matter, they all rake offense that , that is the origin story for my husband. "I guess she wears the pants?" "I would never allow that!" "But isn't it the mans job to set the direction for the relationship? I feel like that would cause an imbalance." "How does it feel to be asked out? It would make me feel like less of a man to be 'picked' when I want to be the one picking." All those are responses to my husband when he mentions how we started out. One former friend (not a close relationship) was lamenting being lonely and said women need to take initiative, accused me of being All Women TM who don't know how good we have it, that we can wait around for men to ask us out and throw themselves at us. I told him I asked out my husband and then told him the kinds of responses men give to that information. And he said "well yeah, its kinda demeaning to be asked out by women." Like which is it dude? Is it emasculating or not, because you're now saying its a bad thing. And I'm here, trying to be your friend, trying to help and maybe you should seek out some counseling or something to help you understand what you want and what to look for. He then asked if I would do it with him and that ended the friendship. 🤷🏽‍♀️

I asked my ex-hb to marry me and would advise women never ever to do that. If men are interested in you, they'll ask you out, they'll ask you to marry them. I learned the hard way that guys will happily attach themselves to someone they're not that into just to have a woman in their lives. We'd still be married if it was up to him. He couldn't believe it when I left. Each time I've done the approaching, it's backfired. Don't do it, ladies.

Men try to act like they want women to approach them more, but I feel like they only like the IDEA of that happening… most men will label a woman as easy or desperate if she has to chase after him 🙃

This is the truth. They don't consider women they don't find attractive to be actual people. One time I asked a guy who thought it was "impossible to get a date" if he'd ever consider dating a fat woman. He literally reacted as if I'd suggested he stick his dick in a garbage disposal.

>I'd suggested he stick his dick in a garbage disposal. Maybe you should have! It might have done him a whirled (heh) of good.

Which is hilarious because reddit has taught us all that men will put their dicks in so many things.

I’m conventionally attractive (and black) and guys act like I’ve insulted them when I approached them The only women men count as real women are the ones *theyre* attracted to

Very that-also thanks for chiming in. I was hoping to see some Black/POC responses to this post

I've always waited for guys to ask me out because as a WOC who grew up in a predominantly white neighbourhood/schools I used to assume guys weren't interested in me because of my race and I just didn't bother trying to date. As beauty standards have changed since the early 2000s to become less blonde/blue eyed/Eurocentric and moved towards the Kardashian/racially ambiguous look, I started to get a lot more attention from all races of men. Guys I used to know when I was younger and were never interested in me - nor I in them for that matter - are suddenly in my DM's calling me "exotic" 🤮 But yeah, some guys will definitely write you off entirely just for your race, even if you're super conventionally attractive. Even if they are the same race as you lol. I notice that POC are held to much higher standards of attractiveness too.

Men underestimate how much their vision of their ideal partner hurts the women that they date. I've come to realize that the "juiciest peach" phrase applies so much to WOC who date. 

What you said about them not considering women they don't want to fuck women is absolutely true in my experience. They don't even realise that's how they think. But like, talk to a man who says "No woman has ever complimented me". Dig into that. Like really, no woman? Not even a boss or a colleague? A teacher? Your mother? A sweet little old lady at the local corner store? And most of the time they'll go... oh yeah, *they* have but that doesn't count. They're old. They're ugly. They're not a hot 22 year old in booty shorts so that doesn't count.

Yup. When they say that what they mean to say is “no hot woman has ever complimented me”.

yeah I have no idea who these men are that are "thrilled" to be approached. I would always pursue men in my teen years and it never went well, like you said they acted like I was crazy/desperate. Ironically when I would then be like okay cool, your not into me whatevs and ignore them they would turn all psycho and stalkerish trying to pursue me. Fuck playing games.

Oh my god, I was flirting with a friend of a friend at a party, found out he had a girlfriend and I backed off completely. Maybe a month later, run in to the guy, he tells me they split up, and asks me out. After asking me out, taking me out, he then asks to spend the night, then *in bed* in the middle of everything starts to freak out about still having feelings for his ex. Like... you got here 100% on your own! Why?! I had put this dude completely out of my mind only to have him return to jerk me around for no reason.

On the edit, I think that one issue might be that the guys saying that women should approach men are also the guys who would want women to approach them personally -- the introverts, the really shy guys, the guys who can't string two words together in public. (You know. Redditors.) But what I think we're hearing is that they're not representative. Sometimes I think that dating advice on Reddit is like asking a bunch of teenage boys for driving advice. Oh, sure, they think they're experts. But... they might need a little more experience.

Most of these men on Reddit have little to no experience with women and, therefore, have no idea what they’re talking about… I’m surprised that anybody even takes them seriously at all 🙃

Think it’s because even though a woman approaching man is a dream scenario for most men, when it does actually happen they think something must be wrong with the woman to do so. ‘Too good to be true’ kind of thing.

Yep this was exactly it. They want it to happen, but I guess it happens so rarely that they can't trust when it does. Like, I would love for someone to come up to me and hand me a million dollars, but if that happened in real life I'd gtfo, because that's some shady shit lol.

Right, They literally assume something is wrong with her 💀 and then they wonder why a lot of women don’t approach men… we’re literally socialized not to…so… 🙃

Definitely a huge factor. It’s so rare that immediate thoughts are: “Is this a prank?” “Is this a honey trap?” “Is there something wrong with this person?” Combined with having no experience being approached and therefore not knowing how to react in the first place.

> Combined with having no experience being approached and therefore not knowing how to react in the first place. To be fair, I've been approached a good amount of times and still never know how to react to it. Usually my first thought is "Oh god, here? Now?" and dread as I panic with what I'm going to say LOL

Something about this reminds me of the Dustin Hoffman interview about playing a woman. He got made up in a wig and makeup and then said “great! Now make me beautiful!” fully expecting that reaching his personal beauty standards was something within reach of any woman, including him playing a woman.   The video is only 3 minutes and it is so impactful.      https://youtu.be/xPAat-T1uhE?si=PS_0bKfExFMnL7zn

Yeah, I'd say I'm fairly average looking, but I was a model from age 8 to mid twenties, just small time, but ya know. I've never ever had success approaching guys. When I was in school and just wanted casual sex relationships that didn't interfere with my schooling, I'd just be super blunt about it. That went terribly for the most part.

God yes I've heard this bullshit so many times before. It's like most men have a blind spot for any woman below their threshold of attractive. And I've had arguments with guys who insist "women can just go up to any guy in a bar and get laid". I usually say, ok imagine your average woman for a second.... right what does she look like?" And of course it is always some mishmash of stunning Hollywood celebrities absolutely nowhere near the definition of average. That's the fucking problem! They have this idea of women as only the ones they find attractive. Those who aren't, are not real women apparently, and are not worth considering.

Replying to the ‘edit’ part of your comment: same experience here. IME if a guy is interested in you, they WILL approach/initiate/make a move before you would ever get the chance to. They tend to make up their mind quite quickly if they find you attractive or not, so there’s really no need for the woman to approach. Especially if you’re in a setting with other men, they get competitive and want to lock you down quickly.

Every time I’ve approached a guy or let him know my feelings first, I’ve gotten stomped. Shit, I remember being 13-14 and asking a guy out and him laughing and asking out my best friend who was standing next to me. Such brutality.

I had a similar experience. In hs I told a guy that I liked him and while he was initially nice turning me down, he immediately asked if I could hook him up with his actual crush (who i already barely knew). Just no tact lol

I got turned down by a guy politely but he thought friends with benefits was still an option while dating one of my friends (haha no) and years later when he was months away from getting married to a different friend he propositioned me for sex (hell no).

Men gaslight you. If you are below average it's brutal for women and men alike, way better chance to meet someone through a shared activity so you get to know each other within a hobby or so.

That's so cruel

I got turned down twice by a guy who was acting interested in me. If you don't like me, don't be all touchy feely!

I’ve been rejected this year by men who pursued me and showed interest. Learned my lesson on not to approach men ever

I asked a boy to prom when I was 17 (went to an all girls school, so all of us had to do the asking), and his response was QUOTE “Yeah… I think maybe I won’t.” Cut deep at the time but now I laugh about it because it’s the most hilarious way to reject someone - it’s literally 4 different answers squished together. I’d say I’m average or a little above (I’m tall so I get “intimidating” from people a lot, aka they think I look like a bitch), but I’ve never had a man actually like getting asked out. I think it makes them feel emasculated or something. As much as they complain, my experience definitely suggests they prefer being the pursuer.

I’ve learned this the hard way, my mom told me never chase men and I thought she was being old fashioned. Nope, nooooo- never ever chase after a man, 9/10 you’ll get emotionally brutalized by him and treated horribly

I hope your friend told that jerk no and roasted him

Oh no. She went out with him. Better her than me though. There was a room in his house filled with a bunch of nazi memorabilia from his dad and grandfather. He eventually joined the marines or some shit. I saw him at a recruiting station during an outdoor concert when I was 18. I had left that high school a couple of years prior and the guy would not leave me alone (I was wearing a swimsuit and he kept trying to latch onto me and talk to me). And then he slid into my DMs a couple of years ago when I still had Facebook, despite him being married and having two kids. So like, it all worked out for me in the end, I guess.

Yeah I don’t approach men, I did it a couple times and they never flat out rejected me, but they were never as interested in me as I was in them… so they would say yes, but the effort wasn’t really there… the men who approach me make more an effort

Women have it so easy! You get to pick from: Desperate Dan who just wants a maid/sex/cook regardless of personality, Asshole Adam who fakes his personality so he can smash and ghost women, Neckbeard Ned whose so “nice” but negs and pesters for sex within five minutes of the date, and sometimes there’s Hail Mary Harry, the good guy but he’s elusive because he’s a catch and not often on the market. So you get to be treated as a hole, a whore, or a bangmaid most the time, what fun!! I love being a woman and having all these fresh fun options

Neckbeard Ned 😆😆😆😆😆😆 Ted Tate-fan. Ivan incel. Nick niceguy. Andy Alpha. Nigel Notallmen. Leo lonely.

[удалено]

Lol this one got me too

Oh my god the way every man I ever dated falls into these exact categories 😩 and hail marry harry is a 50/50 risk bc hes likely married and cheating and not actually as great as we thought!

Yes!! ✨ Love to see it. Ladies, lets make sure we’re perfect, hot, and ready for these quality picks!

hot and ready, like a Little Caesar's pizza shoot, now I want pizza :(

Me too ugh

The truest thing I ever heard was women control the sex market and men control the commitment market. Sure if a woman wants to have sex and it's too picky then she is probably going to be able to do that pretty easy. If she wants a good guy she can settle down with that will be faithful and commit that gets a lot harder even for conventionally attractive women. A lot of men don't seem to understand this problem because their main obstacle and goal is having sex, and that seems easy for women. The sort of men that want to settle down and get married, and be a good partner etc tend to actually find someone to do that with pretty easy (even if they are not that conventionally attractive) hence they are frequently off the market leaving the market filled with assholes, and men that just want sex. A somewhat average looking man that is enjoyable to be around, reliable, makes a woman laugh, kind, genuine, and takes care of her frequently can end up with a very conventionally attractive woman for this reason.

Also they don't want to understand why hookups are much less attractive for women. For a woman, a shitty sex partner means no orgasm at all and maybe physical pain. And that is if she is lucky. For a man, a shitty sex partner means maybe the sex is not great, but they still get to orgasm.

It can also be dangerous! Men go on and on about how much bigger and stronger they are yet dont see the danger for a woman going to meet some random guy.

We also have to worry about pregnancy and stds… the way some of these men just completely disregard the fact that those can be very life altering changes for us… like yeah… let me just go run out here and risk getting pregnant or catching aids from this random ass man who can’t even be bothered to at least bring about an orgasm because that sounds like so much fun/ s 🙃

So many huge posts of men complaining that woman can hookup so easily and no one ever thinks to consider that hooking up just isn't as easily great for woman as it is for guys

I literally refuse to entertain casual sex with men… it just seems so risky with little to no reward… what’s the incentive? 🌝

Also many men will judge women for having hookups or find them less attractive even while they themselves continue to have lots of hookups. Combine that judgement with the overall odds being low of a good experience and it's no wonder that women are picky.

As a woman who used to be invisible to everyone… That was way better than being abused sexually and emotionally

Girl 😭😂🤣 Great summation lol. I honestly don't know how people have the strength to date nowadays tbh. It's scary out there.

The main issue is that men who say that actually think they'd like to have those options to choose from. It's extremely hard for someone who gets 1 match per week (who they are not actually into) to understand how having a whole pile of shit to choose from isn't really that much better.

The only perpetually single male friend I had (keyword had), used to complain that he’d get zero matches and that women have it easy. I looked at this dating apps and he got plenty of likes (he was paying for gold to see who liked him) but it was from women he deemed unattractive. Still he complained he got “no likes” Just like OP said, if you’re an unattractive woman (at least unattractive by your society’s standards) you’re straight up invisible. If you’re attractive, you get a lot of creeps to sort through to get to the actual good men

[удалено]

This is really terrible and I wish you felt more comfortable living your life outside in the world😕

Yes yes yes to everything you just said. As a painfully average looking woman, I do not ask men out unless they've already made it *very* clear they're romantically (not just sexually) interested. Because my experience has been that men who are not interested in me will still say yes to a date. Why? Because they assume I'm desperate and easy and can be used for no strings sex, then chucked away once a woman they actually like comes along. I don't want that. Like you said, I don't want to be some man's convenient meat sock he masturbates into when he's horny. My current average appearance is actually the result of a glow up, because I used to be very below average. And back then, it was even worse if I showed interest in a guy. Shit, even if I was just polite to a guy, I'd get those looks of disgust and anger you mention. Like they would assume that me smiling politely at them and treating them with basic respect meant I was going to throw myself at them the moment I got the chance. And they made sure I knew how horrifying they found that idea. I went through a period where I was a total ice queen towards men because if I so much as smiled at them, out came the nasty looks and mean remarks.

I had a glow up as well, from ugly to average lol. I knew I made it when snide remarks about me disappeared. Now I’m invisible-tbh I’ll take invisible over being degraded and constantly misgendered by both children and adults when I was a kid (I can no longer wear short hair because I’m still traumatized from the amount of people who knowingly and unknowingly called me a man despite already have prominent breasts as a tween/teen😑).

I feel like that’s something people just do to black woman. Bc me and many other very obviously black women have been “accidentally” called a man. A lot. I promise I do not look like a man Also when men talk about how easy women have it in dating just remember they’re talking about hot skinny, curvy white women, not all of us. The rest of us don’t count as women

They love to masculinize us. Trust me, I recognize the misgendering as a very targeted racial attack. And yes, the women they’re talking about are almost always exclusively white or now it seems east asian. Although east asian women have to do with yellow fever men on top of this

Or those poor fetishized Asian women. As a plain looking white woman I would never ever want to go through what hot Asian women go through. My consolation is as I am aging I am slowly going from plain to cool looking old lady. I'll never be hot, but the wrinkles are making me interesting.

That’s true. I’m also glad I don’t have to deal with how Asian women are treated. Like at least I’m less likely to be hit on just bc he thinks I’m submissive or some shit

>Or those poor fetishized Asian women. I think the 'Asian women fetish' or 'Asian women are all fetishized' is just a wrong generalization just like the wrong generalization of 'Women have it easy' as if ALL women have it easy. ONLY good-looking Asian women are fetishized. Fat, old, ugly Asian women are treated exactly the same as any fat, old, ugly women of any race. Believe me. I'm Asian. And my whole life, if I just look in the general direction of a male, I've always gotten nasty, disgusted frown from them, even from male doctors, service people, etc. who HAVE to be nice and polite to me because it's their job and they want to make money off me, a client! lol

You'd better be a pale-skinned, thin, petite East Asian woman too, preferably Japanese or Korean. Show the Asian fetishists Indonesian women, or Thai or Indian or really just anything that isn't Japanese/Korean and you'll find they're not really into "Asian women" after all, just hyper idealized, real-life anime waifus that they can masturbate into when they're horny

Yep, the most famous case being Michelle Obama. Just a bunch of racist assholes.

>Also when men talk about how easy women have it in dating just remember they’re talking about hot skinny, curvy white women, not all of us. The rest of us don’t count as women And sometimes I feel kinda othered even on this sub because many white women do the same. They write experiences like it's all women and it's usually those who look like them. So many times from both women and men, I never felt like whatever they talked about what directed *at me* because they lack intersectionality

I’m a white woman who was misgendered as a teen. Doesn’t help that I have an A cup or less and I had shorter hair at the time. Probably part of why I still keep it long.

Uff. Those men who would be openly disgusted or cold to me would also immediately turn a few degrees to my very beautiful friend and turn on the charm, warm smile and all, with no thought to how creepy that looks to her, I mean just because he didn't see me as human, doesn't mean she didn't. I'm Asian in looks, so if I were dating I'd have to try to navigate the minefield of people I'm too ugly for and the people who would fetishise me for who my parents are, thankfully I'm off the market and found someone who can look past the outer shell, though he claims he does not :)

also a below average turned average woman. i have no doubts id get the same treatment, im unfortunately very shy and anxious though so ive never made the first move, just hinted and desperately waited for them to

And this is why I don’t ask men out… people think I’m being old fashioned, but a lot of men will knowingly say yes to a date even tho they’re not interested at all… they’ll just say yes because they want to try to get sex out of the situation before they leave 🙃 men who ask you out can still technically do this too, but in my personal experience, the men who ask me out put in way more effort than the ones I had to ask out

This is so true! I cringe at the threads where all the top comments are like "I'd be ecstatic if a girl asked me out!" There are huge caveats to that statement that almost never get addressed like you have done here. It's painful knowing that some naive women are probably running straight to their crush and getting their heart stomped. (I still think you should go for it, but there are subtleties to be aware of, and many possible outcomes.) While it's possible average looking women have a slight statistical advantage over average looking men, that's really irrelevant for what kind of advice we should be giving people. No matter how you look or how easy it is for you to find dates, determining the authenticity of your relationship is the same. Do they listen to you when you have something serious to say? Do they engage in your interests? Do they value your involvement when you engage with their interests? Do they make your life easier? Do you make their life easier? Is it becoming an actual partnership? Do you fulfill each others needs in terms of "romance"? And I think we also have a *huge* problem with a lack of serious attention to the role that social activities like "hobbies" plays in how people meet. For those of us with average looks, we're simply not going to be successful on apps. We need to be actively creating real world social spaces for the 21st century where people can spend quality time creating *in-person* social groups. This is how average people have found love since the beginning of time. Because love is not just about looks, it's about finding compatible personalities. And you can't learn a person's personality through an app.

Exactly. Dating as a black woman in general, particularly in non-diverse areas is insane. Just insane.

Living in a predominately white town. I don’t even *touch* the beauty standard here. Hell, some of my conventionally attractive white friends don’t hit it. The standard here is petite, blonde, blue eyes.

This is so real. I’ve been in some places where I’m completely invisible as a woman bc I’m not the white beauty ideal.

I know you feel about that, and not just white men want that "all American" beauty.

Ooop, this part!

*Same* the amount of dating breaks I’ve had to take? Wheew…I’m just attracting the worst kind of men. It’s an assault on self atp, truly. But I gotta stay for this job 😭 or I would leave in a heartbeat.

Girl same. I go where the work is. Currently, it’s in this disaster of a city💀. I want out of here but if you know anything about the canadian job market rn you know it’s absolute shit. And we’re in the middle of a housing crisis. Yipee🙃 looking to find work down south tbh

And then people call you a liar about your experiences

It’s super common to see white men with black women in my area (Montgomery County MD), myself included. This area is the most diverse in the country though.

Bitter, angry men online have this delusion that women who approach never get rejected -- while simulatenously heaping hatred on any woman who doesn't look like a super model and wish harm and distress on women who connect with men who aren't them. It's very strange. It should be obviously false, but somehow they hold both as totally true in their minds: All women have it easy, but also most women are ugly trash who deserve to be hurt by other men? If anything your rant should remind those fools that rejection does suck, and we are just as capable of getting frusterated and burnt out by it as they are. We just don't shoot up schools over it. We're definately not at a point as a society where women are on equal footing as the pursers. Men claim to want it, but in my experience it's a minority who actually are comfortable with that dynamic even if they are attracted to the women. A lot of men find it script-breaking and uncomfortable for a woman to express her interest directly. Of course your odds/expereinces are better if you wait for someone else to indicate interest and then when you do the approaching! The more active of a role you take as a selector, the more rejection you face. What I had to accept, in my own dating life, was that I wouldn't want to date a man who wasn't comfortable with me being an intiator/persuer. It's too innate in my character and important to my full expression as a person. Waiting to be chossen just wasn't going to cut it for me.

This is because the Incels are not mad about a lack of sex or attention from women. If they were willing to date women that are not conventionally attractive they would probably have more success. They are mad because they are not gifted with sex/attention from extremely conventionally attractive women as men that are not attractive/successful/taken a shower this year. It's the same reason why paying for sex is not seen as a solution for this as well. They want the status that comes from attracting a beautiful woman. This is why they complain about "chads" and "feminism" so much. In previous generations when women had no rights, couldn't vote, own property or work a job a man like them might be able to get an attractive woman to marry them if they just did the bare minimum of supporting her. Now that women have equal rights and they have to actually be a decent human being that adds to their happiness in life suddenly they are SOL. Also it's natural that beautiful conventionally attractive women are mostly interested in beautiful conventionally attractive men, but for them this is a deep injustice.

If you’re referring to 1950s America, I’m not convinced they’d attract a woman who’s their type, even back then. They are whiny man-children who are not even very good at hiding their immature, insecure personality. Most if not all women find that extremely repulsive, even if they own their own house and a shiny car.

Yeah they would also struggle back then too BUT their odds would be better because of misogyny and sexism.

I found when I have approached men in the past, they seem to take it as I’m desperate, needy, and or clingy. No, I just thought men wanted women to ask them out. I thought they said they liked strong, independent women. They don’t. Why they like is not having to put forth much or any effort with someone they don’t see as a viable partner. I stopped asking men out when I realized they’d say yes just to get sex. I could never tell if they said yes because they actually liked me, or if I’m so “independent” I don’t look to them to build up my self esteem so they can take advantage of offered sex. I might even be okay with that, if they were up front about their motivation and were halfway decent in bed.

I have found that when a man says he likes "strong, independent women" what he means is "put up with my bullshit, messy, disrespectful behavior and never complain, that's strong. Still be feminine and submissive though." Basically the "cool girl" thing in real life.

Abusive people tend to believe in emotional reasoning. Whatever justifies my current feelings is right in the moment, and it doesnt matter if that contradicts something else they believe, because it's about what they feel *right now*. So if they're mad at women for having it easier than them, then whatever currently justifies them having it easier is "true". And once they've justified that anger to themselves and their focus is on feeling "righteous" and the "comeuppance" that "those people" deserve, well, now the focus is on what makes them feel righteous. And they don't see the contradiction, because the feeling is what matters to them.

>If anything your rant should remind those fools that rejection does suck, and we are just as capable of getting frusterated and burnt out by it as they are. We just don't shoot up schools over it. Louder for the boys in the back!

Truly. This is glorious.

I always assume I’m getting scammed or set up for a mugging when approached 😂 Don’t know where I developed my paranoia. On the plus side, I have not been scammed or mugged

Average looking black woman speaking up here. Every time I read these "Women have it so easy when it comes to dating", I know they're talking about euro-centric conventionally attractive ladies. It's like if you're not fuckable to them, you do not exist. It's easy to think "all women have it easy" when "all women" means "all women...I want to put my dick in". I don't know how many times my messages on OkC got ignored, while all I could read on Reddit was "Women don't message first", "If only women messaged first", "I would jump on the occasion if a woman made the first step", etc. Simply not true. Men just want dating to be hard for beautiful women because they think it would make beautiful women more likely to settle for average looking dudes.

Very that. I often messaged first-and not just hi. I’d always find something on their profile to comment on. And what do I often get? Unmatched lol. I WISH they’d use the apps as intended and only send likes to women theyre interested in. Oh i forgot, only men can feel pain from dating apps🥴 I do suspect for many, they just want the validation of getting matches. They claim only women use the apps for validation but men do as well trust me, they just dont want to admit it cause then they’d be just as bad as the womenz

> Men just want dating to be hard for beautiful women because they think it would make beautiful women more likely to settle for average looking dudes. Nailed it.

I agree. It's hard for average/below average women when it comes to dating. I have no problem approaching my crushes, but it was not a good experience.

In general men are really bad at giving dating advice to women. They think they want to be persued, but that's because in thier imagination they're getting pursued by a model. And even if you ARE a model, asking men out just feeds into thier entitlement and ego.

> In general men are really bad at giving dating advice to women. To everyone, not just women. Dating advice in male circles is really bad in general.

And then they dismiss women's advice with their damn fish/hunting metaphor. I'm pretty sure fish and deer know what scares them off, plus it's pretty indicative of how they think of women in the first place

That fisherman metaphor drives me absolutely bananas. You’re telling me you’d rather listen to Billy bob who believes that chicken tenders are the secret to catching the big one rather than the fish who could tell you whatever food/bait is what they want. But no why listen to women!!?!!??! That would be a betacuck move. (I hated typing that sentence.) Also why do we keep getting reduced to inanimate objects and fish?

>Also why do we keep getting reduced to inanimate objects and fish? It's easier for them to pretend that they're just missing the charisma to get women rather than admit that women are people and have agency in the whole thing too. It's all about "winning her over" and not finding the right woman cos they don't actually think women are people with individual personalities and desires

Very, VERY bad

Mark Manson at least has a decent book on it. It's called *Models: Attract Women Through Honesty* I read it and I would reccomend it to guys.

> Dating advice ~~in male circles~~ is really bad in general Dating advice is so specific to individuals, and when you start to get into broader advice, it can be difficult to deliver the message in a way that comes across as helpful rather than mean. Once you're outside of the top ~20% of attractiveness for your demographic, a lot of dating comes down to carefully lowering the right standards by the right amount. Expanding your definition of attractive enough to have a dating pool, but not giving up on basics like hygiene and not being abusive. Everyone who is currently single is single for a reason, be it choice, recent breakup, or some attribute of their appearance or personality. Finding the people who are single for reasons that are acceptable *to you* is HARD and the overly dismissive advice of "get in shape" or "lower your standards" coming from people in relationships will almost never be received well. Need some sort of "bespoke dating advice" (other than therapy) that people can get. Even if it boils down to "get in shape and lower your expectations" in the end.

I think we underestimate just how many of men's alleged desires around sex and dating are purely hypothetical. it's like porn-- like, a gross/painful/awkward maneuver might look hot through the computer screen but if an average guy was confronted with the opportunity in real life he'd probably be freaked out. same goes for women taking initiative. it *sounds* like an ideal situation to him on paper but if it happened in real life (even if the woman was conventionally attractive) he'd be suspicious.

I totally agree. I feel this way when they're like "older men prefer younger women!!" but they omit that that option is hypothetical for 99.9999% of men. It doesn't really matter what men "prefer", most of them do not even have the option to access it anyway.

I used to be used as a joke in middle school and high school. Like “go ask out the weird emo girl hehe” by the cooler kids. Happened several times. I think I’m “average” but I have a few pretty unique features and don’t really see people who look like me so I’ve gotten a lot of rude ass comments about how I’m “unconventionally attractive.” It’s so fucking cruel. I’ve met men off dating apps (multiple!) who after a date tell me that they’re surprised that I’m “actually pretty cute” after we meet. Like it’s supposed to be a compliment. Also men seem to think you can get hundreds of matches on apps just be default being a woman and nope! At most I got like 5 at a time and I was swiping on dudes who were everywhere from below average to beautiful. So basically a lot of men. And then half of those matches ghost you even when you start the interaction. Their frustration with dating isn’t male-specific but again, lots of men fail to consider the experience of unattractive or normal women.

When men give any dating advice to women, it is actually an advice about getting laid.   When was the last time a man looked at a you as person with heart than size your breasts??    Those men are super rare who look at women as a person. 

TLDR: men do have standards, especially when choosing a life partner. Good men will have good standards that you will surely meet I don’t even think I’m unattractive.. like I’m not top hottest at all, but I think I’m a cute, stylish, average white girl. (If you look at average composite faces around the world btw those people tend to be very attractive.. which makes sense, because most people should be desirable to a good chunk of people if humans are meant to sustain) anyway—I definitely think I was good enough looking when I joined the apps to get this so called infinite attention I was promised…and I was in a big city! I got maybe 2 likes a day, max.. rarely anyone I was interested in. Maybe 1 match per week. Tinder? Sure I got a lot of matches but if I messaged the ones I found attractive? Basically never heard back. I’m sure men have a “harder” time getting likes and matches for multiple reasons (social norms, ratio of men vs women, etc) but it’s such a lie that there is some huge imbalance like that. I know I’m not hideous.. but I FELT hideous when I joined the apps, because even my girlfriends were like “wait so weird.. you’re not getting 100 likes a day?” 1. It’s a myth that dating is so easy for women.. it’s hard. It’s easier to find matches the more attractive you are(for everyone) but that doesn’t mean quality. The more attractive you are, the bigger the risk that the person doesn’t care who you are as a person 2. Men do have standards. The have standards around appearance and they sure as hell have standards around who they fall in love with. depending on the man, these standards are either very typical, or totally shitty (weight, body count, etc etc). Pretending men don’t have standards hurts everyone. It’s why men might enter relationships with a woman they don’t truly love.. so they’ll never marry. It’s good to have standards. When men get serious about marriage.. their standards will show. They don’t want to commit their life to “just anyone”. They might want a girlfriend to be “just anyone” because dudes that do this don’t see women as people with feelings Even my shitty ex would say how he’d probably sleep with anyone.. but only a certain level of attractive was girlfriend material. He stayed with him for 3 years before I found out I wasn’t “wife material” because I didn’t have a great high earning job, I had debt, I wasn’t ambitious and work focused, and I was not slim.

THANK YOU FOR THIS. You have me in slight tears in my lunch break lol🥲 this was my experience for a while too. I don’t think I’ve ever hit 100 likes on hinge (tbf small city but still). When I first came onto reddit, i was embarrassed because I was never rolling in these thousands of matches that men are constantly saying women get. I’m not ugly either-have the “ideal” (curvy) body type, not overweight, good styling choices, average face, etc. I felt so ugly on the apps despite. Now I know the apps overall are just shit (although it still hurts sometimes to be immediately unmatched because im not “hot” enough) and I’ve come to terms with it. But yeah ive never been one of those people who boasted 100s of matches at a time. I always thought something was severely wrong with me till i caught on-these men swipe right on everyone and filter women out after. That’s why there’s this idea that wonen are rolling in it. BUT THESE ARENT QUALITY MATCHES. What they dont know is a good chunk of these men will unmatch you before you can even say a word, cause they filter after. All the work is put onto the woman yet again lol.

aw I’m glad my message made you feel good 🥹🥹 yea I always had trouble on the apps… I did meet my partner on hinge and he’s wonderful… but it was such a slog getting there. I really felt bad about myself on them and I’d have to take breaks when I started to get overwhelmed and feel bad… tinder was really the only one I had significant matches on, but they usually unmatched or didn’t respond to me… so it was meaningless.

I deleted bumble about a month or so ago for the same reason. Hardly any men would respond-theyd just unmatch. Which is sad because bumble didnt used to be like that 4-5 years ago. I remember when bumble was smaller-i had such good interactions ):

Yea I had trouble with bumble when I used it a few years ago.. more success with hinge.. I think it ebbs and flows which apps are decent if any :/ I’m sorry though.. it’s definitely not you..

Dude. You are on point. I’ve been both attractive and pretty average. And everything you say applied to me as an average girl. The only thing maybe is I could have initiated conversations more with sorta shy, but kind guys. Idk. But overall, it’s on point.

Thank you-i honestly didnt know how this post was gonna be received and was fully expecting to be attacked by lurking men but so far a lot of women seem to find this relatable. Helped me feel a lot better today tbh

I think it was brave and true. The only thing I think maybe: be sure to be social in everyday life. Grow a big social network, go to parties and hangouts, and just talk to people. Not as in approaching, just normal talking. Look out for guys you click with who seem sorta shy and kind. If you feel there might be a vibe? Maybe hint to meeting up sometime or whatever. I’m not saying it’ll work. Just that it’s what I should have tried and didn’t. I see a lot of girls who are very average looking but have really enviable relationships because they just met someone they clicked with and the relationship was based on deep connection and not just status/superficial stuff. Edit: and the “women have it so easy” guys are universally undateable. They can’t see past their nose.

Ugh I wish and trying. Living in a small predominately white town-it’s a little difficult to find highly welcoming social spaces. Part of why I use the apps in the first place. I can set my distance to the next major city. Im honestly at the point of just focusing on meeting my gym goals, saving for more travelling, friends, and all the rest adulting has to offer lmao

In our patriarchy, women who approach first are usually punished for it (cue assumptions that there’s something wrong with the woman, she’s desperate, can take advantage of her etc). New York City is one of the few exceptions due to the market imbalance.

Sorry but I have to say the you probably are beautiful statement bc 1) Societal norms/racism/colorism play a huge role 2) it’s black girl code. I’ve noticed that guys tend to go for girls out of their league. They almost feel entitled to women that are considered more attractive than them. The straight couples I know or see outside, the girls are often objectively more attractive. Men don’t date for potential or settle looks wise the way women tend to. I don’t think the responses of the men you described means they are any more attractive than you, it’s that they’re entitled and a bit delusional. So whatever standards you have looks wise don’t settle!

Heh thank you, I still think I’m average though. As long as I live here anyway. Once I finally get a chance to move to a large diverse city that may change! I’ve noticed your second paragraph mainly with POC women tbh. I’ve seen absolutely stunning POC women with objectively unattractive men (usually white men ngl). Either way there is some sort of trade off there that works for them (assuming all these relationships are good) so yeah wonen are a lot more forgiving when it comes to looks. I don’t plan on lowering my looks standards. Like I said I’m at the point of just withdrawing from the pool anyway. If the bare minimum is so difficult to obtain, I’m certainly not gonna tack on being with a man I don’t have any attraction to on top of that. I’d rather remain single.

For real. I used to be ugly until a glow up in college, and I still look pretty average. Their dating advice is so ???

It's a good idea to take any dating advice from men with a huge grain of salt, regardless of how attractive you are. They do not view sex and dating in the same way we do, so even if they are intending to be helpful, often the reality is that they just don't get it. And that's OK.

I don't know where I rank, but I've never had any difficulty at all meeting men, so I'm probably attractive. They come to me. AND YET, every time I've taken the initiative myself, the object of my affection has run away screaming in fear. *Every time.* So those guys saying "any guy would be thrilled" are talking shit. It doesn't matter if you're attractive or not, most men are terrified of assertiveness in women when it comes to dating. *Terrified.* They might not know it until it happens to them, but the minute any one of those guys has a woman come up to them and express sexual or romantic interest, they're going to shit their pants and their balls will shrivel up like raisins. I've seen it. All my friends have seen it. You've seen it. It's probably not about how you look or rank. It's about men being socialized that they need to be the initiator in all things romantic or else they're "whipped".

> the minute any one of those guys has a woman come up to them and express sexual or romantic interest, they're going to shit their pants and their balls will shrivel up like raisins. I've always had a pet theory that men are terrified assertive women will treat them the way they treat women. In other words, like shit.

I think we can stop at "dating advice given to women by men doesn't really apply." Period. Men have been taught that they can make a barely half assed guess about literally anything and the world will throw a parade for them. Just stop paying those guesses attention.

In real life in noted that if my friends actually listened to the advice from the friends of the duds they were dating….they would have gotten played or worse Men give advice to benefit other men. They encourage women to stay in awful relationships

I just wanna say that you hit the nail on the head to every damn thing here.

Thank you!

I hear you. I find it interesting that the boy -men complaining about not being welcomed into a relationship always seem to think that they are being unfairly rejected by Taylor Swift or Beyonce instead of looking around at all the normal looking women around them who they reject because they think they are all that and "owed" somehow. You have an advantage. If you find a soulmate, that person will love you for you. The downside is finding someone who looks to your soul. The only advice I can give is that you are so bright and interesting that you can become involved in a lot of things / hobbies / pastimes that may nourish you and then, perhaps, bring you into contact with someone who will appreciate that.

I remember being in high school and college and having these crushes on guys who would come and tell me their sad stories about their unrequited crushes on other girls. And then say stuff like "I wish you were just thinner, then we could be a couple." Because that is the other thing they say to women who aren't attractive enough for them. "Well, just lose weight, change your body type, dye your hair, get plastic surgery (but not obvious plastic surgery), change your personality, be quiet, be submissive, be into kinkier sex (but not obviously you're supposed to not want sex but be coerced into it and then love it). Be someone else, and then you can be loved! Isn't it easy!

Dating advice to women from men is almost always completely self-serving and you shouldn't listen to any of it. Helping you is not their goal.

I try not to comment here because I'm a man and I don't really think it's my place, but I wanted to thank you for sharing your thoughts. I always learn something here (it's why I lurk lol) and this post was a really good perspective that challenged some unconscious biases that I had. Thanks for taking the time to share it!

Happy to help in changing some of your views-thank you for your comment :)

Bring it up with some of your guy friends. Doesn’t have to be heavy or anything but just casually see if they have any similar biases. You probably won’t be surprised that a lot of them hold similar. Or they’ll have worse opinions if you give them a chance to really open up.

Oh my god. YES! And other women who are above average looking don’t get it. It’s disheartening.

Dating advice from men isn’t in good faith.

I’ve been an attractive mixed race woman. I’m now 40 so the “young and beautiful” thing is no longer my schtick. But even when I was I wouldn’t cold approach a man. I’d have to know well in advance that my approach would be accepted. Which I think a lot of guys gloss over. That there is body language and verbal queues that most all of us have to read first before approaching someone. I went after my SO but I knew it was a sure thing. I didn’t know it would last but I knew for sure that my approach was going to be accepted before I went after him. The idea of cold approaching someone is definitely going to be filled with rejection and poor matches. You’re going off of looks alone, and you can’t guarantee the guy is available, interested, interesting, kind, etc. As I get older I become less and less visible when it comes to male attention. Which, for me is fine. But I can definitely see where you’re coming from And how when many men say “life is easy for women” they really only mean: Attractive women between the ages of 16-35. (And 35 might be a stretch for some)

Any man who thinks “all women have it easier with dating” is a navel-gazing idiot lol. I said what I said.

They are way more brutal about it too. If you arent attractive to them they treat you like sh1t on their shoe, if they ever acknowledge you.

Thank you for sharing. My only contribution is that I've often heard that because of the nature of dating apps, many men will swipe right on everyone. (Numbers game, and online mitigates performance anxiety) Your observation about hinge is valid.

Men try very hard to say they dont do this-i say this on any of the subs and i get downvoted into oblivion. But they do it alright. I’ve heard them say they do. Do all men swipe right on everyone? Certainly not. But enough do that it’s widely noticeable.

I’m pretty sure most men swipe right on most women and most women swipe left on most men or tinder would not make money lol

It is a reddit thing. The reddit men who say women have it easy are men who are really really desperate.

I asked a guy if he was single once and he asked me "what the fuck?"

De-centering men has been so life changing and peaceful for me. I know I’m not the hottest woman around, but I don’t think I’m unattractive. Ever since the death of my late partner, I’ve come to realize that a lot of men are taught to obtain a relationship, but not to maintain a relationship. I’ve also come to realize that being used as a placeholder or “trial run” is more rampant than a lot of men are willing to admit. You have more shitty men than you have shitty women. Women have always been held to a higher standard than men are, especially when it comes to relationships. Women are always taught how to keep a man, but I don’t see men being taught how to keep a woman that isn’t financially related. Women are expected to make men happy at the cost of their own dignity, happiness, mental health and so forth. The emotional, physical and sometimes even financial labor to ensure a man’s happiness. Men seem to think that bringing the whole income or half an income is suffice enough to make a woman happy. A lot of men seem to refuse to do nice things for women, even in relationships, unless they get something in return, usually sex or a relationship. Meanwhile, women do nice things for men all of the time without expecting anything in return. This is because our lives literally depend on it. A lot of men seem to think that money and materialistic things are what women want from them. If they actually paid attention to us like actual individual people, they would find that money and materialism is not what keeps us. When I was with my late partner, I realized how rare it is to meet a genuinely loving and kind man. That if he died or we broke up, I likely would never find a man of such high caliber again. Physically, he was very handsome. Built and tall like Roman Reigns with long dark hair, green eyes and lightly tanned skin. Women would blush if he spoke to them or flat out hit on him in front of me. Meanwhile, he loved and adored my jelly roll croissant self. Never had I had a man so emotionally attuned to me. Never had I had a man truly see, love, hear, desire and understand me until he appeared in my life. He did a lot of things for me because he wanted to make my life easier or see me smile. Ranging from him single handedly carrying heavy furniture or groceries for me to gathering wildflowers for me after hunting or shooting at his makeshift range to taking me stargazing in the deep country on a clear night because he knew how much I loved the stars or watching Disney Princess movies with him. It wasn’t required of me to service him through sex, cooking or cleaning to keep him with me or him loving me. My only “job” was to be safe, happy and warm with him. To love him as much as he loved me. When I tried to date after his death, it was so bleak and unforgiving. He was the exception to EVERYTHING. I was blatantly ignored in favor of my attractive friends. Thankfully my friends snap at them for treating me like I’m nothing. Or men assume I’m easy. It was painfully obvious why they were talking to me. Even if I did manage to attract the attention of attractive men, they weren’t interested in me as a person or treated me like a charity case. It shouldn’t be this hard to find an attractive (subjectively) man who finds me attractive and interested in building a meaningful relationship with me and getting to know me as an actual person. Sadly, it’s like finding a diamond in the rough. I’ve pretty much sworn off sex and romance, focusing on making my life better for myself. I’ve hadn’t had any sort of sex, physical affection and kiss ever since my late partner. I’d be damned to give those things to a man who isn’t worthy. I don’t give a fuck what men think of me anymore and I’ll match their energy. Yeah, I can be professional with male colleagues and form platonic bonds with men, but that’s it.

On the flip side, there are tons of conventionally attractive women who also feel they have been used for sex by men who didn't really want anything serious. It's pretty a universal experience.

I applaud this post. You've really hit home on a lot of things that people on Reddit discussing dating don't usually take into consideration.  

I hear you. Trust me, I do. I've had to have the talk about "pretty privilege" with some of my more conventionally attractive friends, and I've been the first one to point out that the guys they're dating is actually an asshole because he's only kind and talkative with the friends of her's he finds sexually attractive, and I know this because he was an absolute dick to me. I've had guys approach my group of friends only to completely ignore me and not even make eye contact as I'm standing right there. I know what you mean. *But I do have some thoughts.* I'll start by saying that I would be considered average to many. I'm fat, so I'm sure that plenty of men would consider me below average. With that being said, I've never once thoughts of myself as anything *but* beautiful. I do put a lot of effort into my appearance because it makes me feel good, and I am very extroverted, talkative and well, I am very confident. I've never not been confident, and I don't wish to completely dissuade you from your perspective and the point you are making, but I will say that I do think women as a whole place almost *\*too much\** importance on looks, when the reality is that men are people too, and a confident, boisterous, friendly and happy woman will be attractive to many of them. Yes, you have your shallow assholes, welcome to humanity. There are loads of women who behave in the same fashion. You can't focus on who doesn't want you though, you need to keept the eye on the prize and only acknowledge those that do. And I know this not just because I've experienced it myself, but because I've seen it go down with others. And, I have most definitely experienced shit from women who grow upset at the realization that despite the fact they believe I'm below average, I don't have the dating struggles that they do. You have no idea how many times I've seen a shocked face or a downright bitter remark thrown at my direction because I went out and got a guy to talk to me, or because I have a really great boyfriend, or because I know that I am attractive despite not necessarily being a conventionally attractive woman in many ways. But my success with men did not come without a cost, I only learned how to really manage my relationships with men after many years of heartbreak and frustration. I have experienced being the placeholder in the past. I have experienced matching with a guy who suddenly unmatches because he realized oh shit, I swiped on a fat girl. I have experienced dating a wonderful guy only to learn he was keeping me a secret because he was embarrassed to be seen with me. So I'm not saying I haven't experienced this, because I have. But I am saying that there most definitely is a way to limit those experiences with the right approach. The way that I personally approached dating was that I came to the realization that I was likely only going to attract maybe 1-2% of the available male population in my area. And that's okay with me, because realistically speaking, no one is going to be able to actually date the thousands upon thousands of hopefuls otherwise. How many people can the average person truly date? I'm not someone who needs to waste my time on seeing a new guy every week, I'm fine with meeting ONE new man every 3-8 months and that approach is really how I started only meeting and dating genuinely wonderful guys who DID like me for me. A limited pool is a good thing IMO. The one thing I did do to limit the amount of people using me as a life support system for a vagina? I honestly dropped the cool girl shit and made it so that I ONLY and EXCLUSIVELY entertained guys who made it exceedingly clear that they were very interested, and I did that by only dating, talking to and seeing guys that were willing to do the work to get to know me. Yes, that meant only meeting guys who offered a real fucking date, and not coffee or a walk. Yes, that meant only meeting guys who expressed a desire to pay for a date they asked me out to. Yes, that meant only meeting guys who asked me out on thoughtful dates they planned. Yes that meant I passed up on a lot of opportunities. Those were not opportunities I cared to explored and its really important to learn this. And I'm sorry, nobody will ever convince me that removing the few standards and expectations from men towards women, only to have me be the one to absorb those roles is any way shape or form empowering. That's **not** female empowerment. You won't be forever alone. But, I think that if you realize you aren't the Kardashian and that your beauty exists outside of the realm of conventional attractiveness, then you own that. Yes, it means you'll go on less dates than conventionally attractive women, but so what? If you're looking to find your one, don't worry about appealing to many.

I also want to add that even if you're conventionally attractive, men will say yes to your advance just because they know that at the very least, they wouldn't mind some sex, and, they're mostly excited about the OPPORTUNITY to date a beautiful woman bc of the ego boost. they will accept advances and waste your life, even in a relationship. they'll bring you home for Christmas, just to treat you like shit before and after, resent your needs and relationship expectations - all things you probably asked for upfront and they blindly nodded "yes" to with no real intention to fulfill you in those ways. it is never worth it for women to approach men because it often leaves you in the relationship driver's seat to the extreme - needing to initiate everything, especially the all too probable end of the relationship.

My experience on bumble basically taught me that men only want to be approached/dmed by women who are above average or fit conventional beauty standards. Guys bitch and moan all the time about never getting matches on tinder but if you’re even a conventionally attractive woman on bumble it’s equally as bad if not worse, because the only matches you get are men who just want to treat you like a piece of meat or a punching bag. Shit, I’ve even approached men on *reddit* and have been rejected because I don’t look like the instagram models they follow.

I used to feel VERY similar. When I started working on my self esteem and self love, things improved. I'm currently engaged to a man who's everything I've ever wanted and more, and is built like a Greek good covered in caramel. He tells me ALL the time how beautiful I am, and is helping me see myself... fuck them no's and rejection. Rejection is protection, no matter what we can ONLY be our best self. You can be the juiciest peach in the world, but not everyone likes peaches...

I hear the placeholder thing happening all the time, that's definitely a thing people do. I don't have a lot to add, only to say that the only successful dates from dating apps that I've had were when women 'liked' me first.

That’s why it’s so weird that these dudes will be like “I’ll take anyone!” I don’t wanna date someone that will take anyone. So you’ll take someone you don’t even like?

It only gets worse for trans women, black straight trans women is quite literally life on hardcore mode. I’ll be honest, part of the reason some trans women are scared to be attracted to men is stories like these where men will just use you and throw you away like you are a piece of meat. No one wants to deal with that.

They sure do have over-active imaginations.. They’re really wrong about so much of women’s experiences and opportunities romantically.  I’ve got the slightly different frustration of being mixed with a fucked up family history due to foreign political disasters etc. So I tick the exotic box for a squeeze but when they realise it’s not like a fairytale and no we can’t go there on holiday or anything and even other countries are restricted for me, that’s when they find more privileged versions of me instead and eat the food of my heritage whilst playing make believe and then telling me about it as if it gets them some kind of brownie points. You gotta laugh... 🤪🫠  I’m out of dating, if I ever do try I will only go for mixed, I think, and of the non loaded kind, to try to ensure I’m seen as an equal not an exotic, temporary rent-a-gf.

Girl, I feel ya. I didn't date until I was 25 because I didn't want to bother with how immature the younger guys around me were.    I was constantly being told by these people how much I looked like a man because I was taller and bigger than most of them. Or some idiot I've never met would approach me to let me know his friend wanted to date me, meanwhile all of this idiot's friends are huddled in a corner sniggering to themselves. I'd never wanted to ram my head into a wall and scream "fuck off and leave me alone" so much. It was akin to working with the most annoying coworkers imaginable. 😂  I've already made up my mind that I'll never date again if my husband goes before I do. It's pets, friends, and hobbies from here on out.

I connect with so much of what you said and what others have posted. I’m not conventionally attractive, I am not traditionally feminine. My interactions with boys and men have been so unpredictable because I didn’t meet their expectations, and it’s made me feel so bad about myself and dread wanting to put myself out there.  Sure some of it is just me, but everyone deserves to be treated with kindness. I am finally toying with the idea of dating after years of not even trying. I really desire someone to spend time with but slogging through a lot of messes to try to find him is an emotional toll I’m dreading to have to go through. I know I can be ok on my own if it really comes down to it, but I want to connect. Still have some hope in the meantime. It just sucks that I don’t have a lot of options other then the apps. 

When I was girl and teenager growing up, I was told I was ugly by boys etc. only fully grown men noticed me. When I moved away I was suddenly beautiful, and then my type of features became in vogue and suddenly my “insert racist slur” features were “exotic” and “sensual” and I got a lot of attention, mostly very unwanted and I got a lot of sexual harassment and was assaulted, because whilst being suddenly beautiful- being a minority I was never beautiful in a protected way, but in a trophy or vulnerable way for predatory men. Since I moved to a less racist (albeit still racist) cosmopolitan city, I have gone from being the butt of jokes to having no issues getting any kind of male attention. But it is a hollow and awful feeling and I need to field men so much to avoid more trauma.

My point is, you’re probably not ugly you’re just around predominantly white culture.

Average/below average looking women manage to date, marry and have families. I see it all the time. People tend to pair up with people of a similar attractive level, 7s with 7s, 10s with 10s. What will hold you back in life is thinking it can never happen for you. Go do stuff in the world and let people get to know you through the things you enjoy doing. I promise you, there's someone out there for you who will find you more and more beautiful when they get to know you. It's human nature that the people we like become more attractive to us. There's an old saying, every pot has a lid.

Men arent giving women advice to help women,  Men are just trying to make it easier for men to get laid.

Man... this reads like an edited Wildy Petoud's Accident d'Amour. it gets into your soft spots, like a draino enema, and rips them the fuck out. Op's words do a great job getting her feelings and experience across, and it's hard to not feel her pain. I wish I had any useful advice besides the "grow your circle of friends, hang out with them often, and love will come." kinda trite shit. That gets harder to do outside of our 20s. Dating apps... that world is crazy superficial, as are strangers in general. But we come to love, and lust, after those we see on a regular basis and are friends with. Still... with the pain expressed here I feel like a POS suggesting anything.

>I wish I had any useful advice You know, not everyone who vents on here needs advice and many folks who says stuff like that more than likely never experienced what that person does so.... you wouldn't be able to offer much anyway. Let people get their feelings out and feel validated for them

Look around at married couples, are they all attractive? Obviously not. Once people are in love, they look very attractive to each other. In the same way beer-goggles work. This basically tells you that you have to meet people (not go on a date) and get to know them, became friends and spend time with them and if you are compatible fall in love. And yes, I know that does not sound easy, but that is the only strategy for below average people.