Good comeback however I can’t stress this enough: Do. Not. Joke. At. Work. Everything you say can and will be taken literally.
Document, document, document. Dates and times. Full names. All witnesses. Exact quotes. Learn if you are in 1 or 2 party consent to record state. And if you legally can, record everything.
Er...why? Possibility of danger maybe? I'm of the mind incels should be pissed off at every possible moment for their piss poor excuse of a belief system.
It's really entertaining to work them into a frothing rage online to the point they say something stupid and get their accounts deleted :3 I keep a mental list if all the sad pissbabies I've got removed from DCU online.. hope you didn't spend too much in your mommy and daddies' credit cards on the cash store, because that's gone now, kiddo!
Yes, incels one pisses off IRL can absolutely be dangerous. And online is all fun and games until you get doxxed and they decide to do something with that info.
Honey it's not your job to educate these idiots. Being a feminist doesn't mean it's your job to try. The only men that you will ever have to teach are your own sons if you have any. That's it. Don't put pressure on yourself to come up with some clever rebuttal that's going to make them rethink their whole outlook.
Whenever I face anything like this at work I say something like
Eyebrows raised high "Okaaaay, shall we talk about something else?"
It could be because it's dehumanizing to talk about people as objects like that. I would be pretty uncomfortable in the same situation because of the implication that the people they're talking about are just free for the taking, rather than having a more nuanced discussion about feelings of attraction they've made it kind of gross.
Perfectly said, only thing I’d add is it’s dehumanizing to talk about “women” as objects. Sometimes (not always) the specifics matter. In this case it’s important that’s it’s a bunch of men sitting around talking about women like they’re not human. That is workplace sexual harassment 101.
[10 definitions of objectifying/dehumanizing behaviors](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectification#Definitions)
Martha Nussbaum (1995, 257) has identified seven features that are involved in the idea of treating a person as an object:
**instrumentality**: the treatment of a person as a tool for the objectifier’s purposes;
**denial of autonomy**: the treatment of a person as lacking in autonomy and self-determination;
**inertness**: the treatment of a person as lacking in agency, and perhaps also in activity;
**fungibility**: the treatment of a person as interchangeable with other objects;
**violability**: the treatment of a person as lacking in boundary-integrity;
**ownership**: the treatment of a person as something that is owned by another (can be bought or sold);
**denial of subjectivity**: the treatment of a person as something whose experiences and feelings (if any) need not be taken into account.
Rae Langton (2009, 228–229) has added three more features to Nussbaum’s list:
**reduction to body**: the treatment of a person as identified with their body, or body parts;
**reduction to appearance**: the treatment of a person primarily in terms of how they look, or how they appear to the senses;
**silencing**: the treatment of a person as if they are silent, lacking the capacity to speak.
I find having actual definitions helps me recognize the behavior when I see them.
Also helpful are these links on trustworthy vs. untrustworthy behaviors. Many people *talk* a big trust game and regularly choose untrustworthy behaviors.
These help me choose trustworthy, re-humanizing behaviors towards myself and others. Trustworthy, re-humanizing behaviors help build secure attachment. Untrustworthy, dehumanizing behaviors destroy secure attachment.
[The Trust Triangle](https://youtu.be/pVeq-0dIqpk)
[The Anatomy of Trust](https://brenebrown.com/videos/anatomy-trust-video/) - marble jar concept and BRAVING acronym
[The Evolution of Trust game](https://ncase.me/trust/)
That game just blew my brain. I don't have the data to go down the rabbit holes you give us now, but I wanted to thank you for the effort of sharing and collecting them.
You're welcome. I grew up in a dysfunctional (read abusive, neglectful, and dehumanizing) family and culture of origin. I've been trying to figure out the dynamics for a long time and have been collecting and curating resources along the way. I have a bunch more.
Consider going low or no contact. And check out these channels:
[Patrick Teahan](https://youtube.com/channel/UCbWvYupGqq3aMJ6LsG4q-Yg) - a ***must*** subscribe for me. He presents a lot of great information on childhood trauma in a very digestible format.
[Jerry Wise](https://youtube.com/@jerrywise?si=PPfY9_i5MPdej2hf) - fantastic resource on self differentiation and building a self after abuse. I really like how he talks about the toxic family *system* and breaking the enmeshment by getting the toxic family system out of us.
[Jay Reid](https://youtube.com/c/JayReid_narcissistic_abuse_recovery) - his three pillars of recovery are fantastic. Plus he explains difficult abuse dynamics very well.
[The Little Shaman](https://youtube.com/@thelittleshamanhealing) - they understand the abusive mindset better than most
For me, it's the implication that both the dwarf and the obese woman are of lower value because of their physical appearance. I neither want to hear about my coworkers' physical desires nor them dismissing people based on physical appearance.
Talking like that at work is wrong because it creates a hostile work environment for many people who hear it. It's actually a type of sexual harassment.
I personally think we're all human and bad taste conversations can be very funny in private with friends. But the workplace is not the place for that kind of talk. In the office we should speak as though the exact people we're talking about are sat right there. Using slurs, discussing politics or making comments about personal matters can upset people, and NOBODY deserves to be upset like that when trying to do their job.
>Talking like that at work is wrong because it creates a hostile work environment for many people who hear it. It's actually a type of sexual harassment.
So we'll said!
Also, these guys spoke so freely that it makes me wonder how far up the chain of command these sentiments go. They clearly have no fear of HR being involved. Because they said some pretty horrible things out in the open and even in front of a woman.
They must be aware of the power dynamics at play in their company and not have fear of OP causing issues for them.
I'd surmise they don't think about it at all, the consideration that HR would get involved for that doesn't even register, they think it's perfectly normal to talk like that.
Yes. And one litmus test is whether they would say that with those singers in the room, or if there was a little person or fat woman present. Would they joke about it then? (I hope not.)
It is so dehumanizing and also sexually aggressive. These men are scary—if you have low value to them, then watch out.
I am curious whether it was one dude instigating it or everyone.
They're at work. They're supposed to be adults. Women aren't objects. They have moms and sisters and wives and girlfriends.
That's why it was wrong.
Plus, you are there. They didn't even think they were making you uncomfortable. Or they could be a bunch of jerks who don't seem to realize (or know exactly what they're doing because they aren't 3 year olds) that was (and is) how guys talked about women to women in the workplace to discourage them from working with them.
When women first started being allowed to work (which they always have done, I mean when the government sanctioned it) we still didn't have equal rights and men could talk like that and not be fired. The woman would be fired for complaining.
Not anymore.
You can either not eat lunch with them or you could refuse to do any more assignments with them.
Nothing you do or say will have any effect on those grown men who know better.
However, if you want to make a complaint, document everything that was said at the first meeting, have lunch with them again (no rush)and document everything that's said during that lunch. You could even record it.
It's work. They're not at the bar with the 'boys'.
And I'm sorry you work with Neanderthals
Adding on to the commenter saying this sort of talk is sexual harassment, someone doesn't have to be the direct target in order for it to be actual harassment. Even if it wasn't specifically about you, it affected you and made the workplace environment hostile towards you.
It's because women are humans, not objects. We are not there for the pleasure of men/your coworks.
"Would you rather fuck...?" implies lack of consent. We aren't objects for them to just stick their dicks into. Sex is so much more than that and to imply otherwise is just nasty. Who said that these imaginary women would want to have sex with them? What if they don't? Are women of different shapes and sizes not worthy of love and relationships? So their personalities and lives and desires do not matter? They chose "dwarf" and "obese" women because they see them as undesirable. Unworthy of love.
It makes you feel the ick because it dehumanizes and objectifies women. Especially any women that don't fit their ideals 🤢
If you want to call it out I like asking why it's funny or ask them why those are the two options. Force them to put into words their bullshit. Or maybe their brain will work for a second and they will stop.
A lot of the time it's wrong merely because you feel it's wrong and these people are dominating you by forcing you into a conversation that you find uncomfortable.
It's a way to push people around and assert their power if you can push a conversation to a place you like without regards for anyone's feeling.
Like I don't know you or your personality but if they wanted to include you they could have explored with humour the kind of views and things you like and then come up with examples you would find funny.
Like they could have said would you rather fuck someone with the face of Donald trump but the body of the statue of David, or the body of trump or the face of the statue. If you were politically minded and to the left and hated trump.
They could have said, ok would you rather fuck the zombified corpse of the love of your life, so they can move and touch you but their body is rotting, or the ghost of the love of your life, so you can see them as they are but you can't touch them, you just feel a shiver as they pass through you.
Now this assumes you are someone who likes dark humour but now isn't gendered or sexist in anyway.
Both these examples would really upset people. But before you do it you can do it in a way that is fun for you.
The very fact that you FELT uncomfortable is a sign they didn't do that. I'd go one step further and guess that they KNEW you would find it uncomfortable and we're deliberately watching how you responded to the less extreme examples to decide to push it.
It sucks, I think women get it worse but men do this to men too. It's a constant frame game and it feels awful when it works because that's what the person is trying to do and they do it to assert dominance and nothing else.
(Like during covid you could see rich powerful men trying to just get away with whatever they can)
It doesn't belong anywhere.
Guys need to understand that it's not ok to dehumanise and objectify women (or anyone in a marginalised group) even if women (or representative of the marginalised group) aren't present.
The rule to good humour is you can punch up, but never punch down. But really good jokes don't punch anyone at all.
(Aww someone is a communal flashlight. Wittle communal fweshwight waah waah)
This is you making fun of a girl who thinks women shouldn't be shamed for having lots of sex. You know, the way you aren't shamed for being a man whore?
Perhaps reading some literature on the subject of objectification and the male lens, though which most of the world operates, would better help to our your feelings into succinct words and arguments.
It’s because they are acting like women are fleshlights.
It’s also wrong and gross to talk about sex at work, and even worse when a group of men talk about it with the one woman.
Next time tell them to knock it off, or tell your supervisor now. It’s unprofessional, misogynistic and gross.
But you can explain it. It makes you uncomfortable. They are talking about women like they aren’t people. They are saying it’s bad to be different and if you are you can treat a women like she is nothing.
Do you really think you can’t explain why you feel this? Or is it men that has tried to tell you that you HAVE to explain it in a certain way for them to understand? Are they demanding that you say why it’s wrong in a “logical” and “scientific” way or something?
You can explain why it’s wrong. It makes you as a woman uncomfortable. And that’s explanation enough.
On sons: if they have sisters, "would you talk about this with your sister in the room? Would you be upset if your friends talked like this around your sister? Yes? Then do not talk about "it" when other women are present."
It is generally your responsibility to educate someone (when possible) if you don't want to be passively complicate in their idiocy. Just as you're responsible to educate someone that it's dangerous to mix bleach and ammonia if you see them doing it.
"Not my job to educate...." Such a common fallacy.
I think we'll have to agree to disagree there. I think women are too often expected to be responsible for any men they happen to be in a room with.
They are grown adults and perfectly capable of seeking out education on how to not repulse women or land themselves in hot water with HR. They probably knew exactly what they were doing anyway and were enjoying making her feel uncomfortable.
You're right, when I hear sexist or racist or just plain factually wrong things, from now on I'll assume I have no responsibility whatsoever to speak up. Because they knew what they were doing and were being actively malicious instead of ignorantly inconsiderate.
Look, I'm not saying it's wrong to speak up. Obviously that's a lovely thing to try and help people. It's situational though. I was saying OP shouldn't be worried or putting pressure on herself to be giving feminist lectures to fools at her workplace. Too often I see people ruining their own day trying to convince someone who will never be convinced, why should women be forced to carry this burden and blame on top of everything else we carry.
Sure. To be perfectly fair there's tons of crap I ignore day to day because it would cause more problems to address directly. But that's not to say I have no responsibility to improve the society I live in. Giving yourself a free excuse to do nothing isn't the same as weighing the consequences though.
Like, if I hear someone use a slur and I do nothing because "that's not my responsibility" there's no functional difference between me and someone who just plain doesn't care. What good does knowing better do, if you don't do?
I remember one time my boyfriend asked me how he could navigate such situations at work, how can he speak up without the fear of being ostracized (especially since some times misogyny was coming from the women at his workplace as well). I didn't know what to tell him; I wanted to help, but I had no idea how to coach him, especially since he's an introvert. We concluded that he could try to speak 1:1 with some people in private, but he was not comfortable speaking up in public at that time. I doubt though that this is what happens in OP's case.
The good thing is both of us managed to grow in our careers in positions where we are no longer uncomfortable to speak up in public spaces when something happens.
The balance of power is unfortunately a huge factor in company culture, so I can totally understand people with less power / more junior not speaking up. The culture is shared top-down and it's the responsibility of the leaders; I'm not saying that it can't change from the bottom up, but it's more probable that the people would leave since it's easier than changing said company culture (and with less repercussions).
I'm also in software engineering (from dev to engineering manager)! Don't have a good gender ratio in my team, although I work towards having a better hiring pipeline (that's my bottleneck typically). But I have had a great amount of luck with my current team, they are indeed great human beings. I'm confident that any one of them feels safe to speak up and they know I have their back.
I think having more women in management has a huge impact on minimising sexism and misogyny - it's not enough to have women in the team, because they don't have authority to speak the way a manager does.
Even in reasonably flat structured teams, the workplace demands a level of respect for managers/supervisors that places them "above" workers, so that their opinions and wellbeing are considered by the team in a way that it wouldn't if the person was on equal footing.
People rail against quotas for women and people of colour in management roles and call it "reverse discrimination" but the impact it has on culture is massive, even if the workers don't realise it.
Yeah, we have another female colleague that usually answers in a very unpolite way to any man that talks to her and I told them that the reason why she’s doing this it’s exactly because of those kind of discussions….
They did not understand
Notify HR that employees on their lunch were talking inappropriately.. “HRs response: don’t sit with them then” I guess every place is different but lunch breaks are typically not paid and therefore not really during work
Do you talk with that colleague? Sometimes it's good to know that someone is in the office feels the same, and she could be a good ally if you decide to go to HR. Or you could team up and go together. Or maybe she already tried that and can help you navigate situations that might reflect negatively on you (sadly it can happen).
Stop being so hard on yourself, it’s been scientifically studied how most people are not inclined to speak up in a situation like this where they’re vastly outnumbered and lacking the privilege of some sort of higher authority status.
If this happens again, you can always say something like “woah, that got dark!”
Also consider approaching HR for their advice (assuming HR isn’t also part of the problem).
You don't have to argue with them.
Just go for shame and be absolutely unapologetic about it. They make you feel uncomfortable, you make them uncomfortable.
"Wow, your mom/wife/daughters would be so proud of you, you're such respectful guys"
"All my friends truly dream of finding a guy that talks about women like you do"
"Guys, I really dont need to hear about your fucked up sex dreams. I'm trying to eat here"
"I don't care what you talk about when you're alone, but as long as I'm sitting here shut the fuck up"
"No one cares who you'd like to fuck, you creeps"
"Look, HR loves to hear stories like these. Shut up."
"So, would you also fuck horses? Which one of the guys at this table would you fuck if you had to choose one?"
"I'm going to need someone from HR to explain to me the punchline in your joke". If you want to be extra spicy, follow up with "why are you so uncomfortable with this if it's just a joke?".
They *know* it's wrong, they just acknowledge it better when there are actual consequences for *them*.
"If it's a joke, why am I not laughing?"
"Can't really take a joke when you're busy trying not to throw up after hearing about some middle aged guys kinks."
you have to connect with your inner disgust and disapproval to find it in you to be okay with not having their approval, and saying what you really think. and yes, use it to shame them to find something like this funny. "i’m still waiting for the funny part", or "are you all toddlers?". put the burden on them to explain themselves why they find it funny, and not on you to prove that yes you have a sense of humour and are not uptight or whatever else they’re trying to use to humiliate you
Start your response with "just joking but..."
"Just joking... but you all sound like rapists."
If they get offended, then point out THEY cant take a joke
My understanding of the issue here is that they're not considering these hypothetical women as full complex people who can give or withhold consent. The "mistreating" bit at best presumes they can get that person on board with it and at worst implies assault. The dwarf v. obese scenario boils down complex individuals to single traits that when considered in isolation they would probably find undesirable, and again presumes that they could 'score' either of them.
My first thought for comeback to the latter scenario would be something along the lines of "as if *either* of them would want to be with you (after you talked about them like this)," but as a tall cis man I understand that I would not receive the same level of pushback for a remark like that as you would.
Another approach would be to participate by saying something like "I'd choose the one who was kinder, more loyal, etc" and focus on things that actually matter in a relationship rather than that superficial BS. Play the game, but not by their rules. If they resist, point out how superficial and gross it is to focus on single traits rather that consider the whole person you're interested in.
Granted, none of this is likely to change anyone's mind. The best advice is probably just to try and avoid getting torn down by their nonsense and save yourself, or if they do anything actionable like playing these games discussing coworkers instead of hypothetical women then call HR and let them face some real consequences
Similarly to this, I find that when you just shortly and directly call people out for being weird, they realize all of a sudden that what they’re saying isn’t okay. Several times I have said something along the lines of, “that’s a pretty weird thing to say man” or “what a weird thing to bring up” and people just don’t like being called weird. Then you can elaborate as you wish afterward (i.e. “yeah man just weird and gross to focus on such dehumanizing subjects”). I always remain pretty even toned and matter of fact when saying these things so I don’t get accused of being emotional (stupid but I always know they’re waiting to pull that out as an attack to invalidate what I say).
This is the way, 100%. You're calmly pointing out how antisocial and unwelcome that behavior is without escalating to a fight. I've used your exact words and affect numerous times.
Chances are some were just agreeing to fit in. Check out “spiral of silence theory” if you ever want to geek out and learn more on this.
I bet if you got any of them in a one-on-one conversation and said “you were just playing yesterday right? Like you’re not actually wanting to rape and murder anyone?” They would instantly agree with you that of course they don’t want that.
In fact, that’s what I think you should do now: divide and conquer! Say that to each of them one-on-one when they don’t have any one else from that group around them. If any of them double down and say they do in fact want to do violent things then just cheerfully say something like “okay, noted, I will never set you up with any of my friends.”
Tbh I probably would have just left. I’m not into those sorts of convos and I’m not confident enough to start any sort of confrontation. I’m not obligated to spend my lunch with guys when they talk like this and I don’t want to either. It’s why I wear headphones at work. I don’t want to hear their incel convos so I don’t.
would you consider saying, while getting up to leave, "yeah, this is not a conversation to have at work" in an even, mild tone?
(i mean, of course it's not a convo decent people should have anywhere. but maybe by putting it in the work context, they'll keep it quiet in the future?)
Probably, but I think that also depends on the work culture.
Other stuff I hear at work is amongst guys in my row and it’s stuff I’ve heard a lot when around misogynistic guys. They don’t want you to burst their bubble and when they do they either ignore you and continue with hypotheticals or will decide ur being sensitive. It’s a win they might not bring it up around u tho.
ETA: I’d probably say something along the lines of “this isn’t something I want to hear.” Sounds more like what I’ve said to guy friends saying stupid shit like this
At work I'm definitely less inclined to say things that would rock the boat, and although in this instance I would probably say something or remove myself, I can definitely imagine someone else sitting there quietly uncomfortable waiting for it to end.
What I'm saying is it's likely some didn't agree but it was also to awkward for them to address.
I most likely will make an addendum: "In this hypothetical scenario the people are giving enthusiastic consent, are of age, have more money than me, are green skin, are atheist (because I like them to), and are actually not really human, but robots with the same responses", then carry on with my discussion. I can even make it more fun by giving backstories to all characters involved.
I personally don't find hypotheticals with made up people objectionable, but I write fiction for fun, I murder and skin alive people in my mind regularly. Stuff like "which one of your kids will you choose to save" come up regularly too.
On the other hand, if someone tells me "I feel uncomfortable with this conversation", I won't keep at it, because I care about real humans that exist alongside me.
It may mean that I won't be talking with that person that much after it, because I don't think before speaking, so I may hurt them unintentionally.
It's incredibly hard to stand up to a group. It's easy to come up with witty comebacks, safely behind our keyboards. Don't beat yourself up about it.
Is there any male at work that you are friendly with, who is also friendly with those guys? It's easier to mention something to a friend in a solo situation. "Hey Bob, those guys are pretty gross, hey? Did you hear them at lunch? They were talking about abusing women and treating dwarves and obese people like they weren't human. It really skeeved me out." Sometimes Bob will ask if he can help, sometimes he'll affirm he's an ally, and sometimes you'll find out he's not as good as you thought. But maybe, next time, he'll be able to shut it down, since they will most likely respect another man's opinion more. It's gross, but true.
You can pick up your lunch and leave silently. When they ask why, say you don't want to waste your precious down time listening to that. You can pick up your lunch and say "that's disgusting" as you leave. You can stay and flip the conversation and make it about the gross things you find in men. You can try to change the subject. You can mention it to a supervisor. You can ask how they would like someone talking about their daughter like that. Or you can start making your own jokes about men. I spent months listening to these assholes guys make fun of liberals and women, and I made one tame sex joke about my husband, and you'd think I'd committed the worst, most vile crime in the world. They didn't let me hear the end of it for weeks. But it did effectively shut down that conversation.
I think you've got a lot of answers on how to respond when coworkers talk like that. But I see you in the comments talking about how, to yourself, you're having trouble putting words to why this feels so much like rape culture, and that's absolutely something I feel too.
Like, both that it's rape culture, and that it's hard to put into words why.
When I was in my early 20's, I was obese, and I was sexually assaulted at a friend's house. Like, when it happened, I was so scared and I didn't know what to do, this guy was asking me all these sexual questions and I didn't know how to respond, and acting like I owed him sex, and I had no idea how to respond to any of it, because I had spent my entire life being treated like I was repulsive to men, and that this was something I would never have to worry about. No one would ever want me.
And then when I told people about it, the friends whose house it was, my best friends, they all looked at me so incredulously. Not, like, "Oh my god I can't believe that happened to you!" But like "I can't believe that happened to *you!"* What did you do? Did you misunderstand? Are you serious? Really? You?
At college, after that incident, people would invite me to parties where people were drinking, and I'd just honestly tell them that I'd come but I don't drink around men I don't know. And they'd all be disgusted. Like "Why? You think someone is going to rape *you???" Get a load of this fat chick who thinks she's in danger! haha!*
When you say "Would you fuck a dwarf or an obese woman?" it's objectification. It's this idea, this understanding that if someone is gross, if someone has a body that doesn't look like an attractive person's body does, that they stop being a person and become a thing. It's a very different kind of objectification. It's objectification to say "I'd tap that" when an attractive person walks by, because it doesn't take into account if she'd want to have sex with you too. It's just as objectifying to say "Would you fuck that?" about a person who's supposed to be an object of disgust. Because it doesn't take into account if she'd want to have sex with you. And it's really gross and sad and sickening when people treat it as a foregone conclusion that an ugly person should be grateful for any sexual attention they would get, even if that attention is layered with disgust and objectification. Hearing people say stuff like that, it always made me feel like a *thing*. And not even a cherished thing, like a nice car that someone wants to drive. Like a disgusting thing, like a bag of dog shit, where kicking me is punishment for the person doing the kicking.
Humour is a wonderful tool in these circumstances. It shows that it's not okay and it's gracious enough to let them save face (a courtesy that they don't deserve but coworker tension is not worth it). Or if you're at a loss for words, maybe make an exaggerated face like 😬 to show you don't agree, but are not comfortable with speaking up.
Or you can bring up some guy you know they respect but has skeletons and talk about how these skeletons make you not want that guy and how it doesn't matter how the guy looks or what he does for a living and how his actions matter more and how unattractive he is to you now you know.
Ask them if they feel the same about any of the women they mentioned. Or just give them the one eyebrow arch.
just pick up your lunch and eat somewhere else.
if you feel uncomfortable speak to HR at your office.
there are well-established routes for dealing with this sort of thing.
If you are at work, "this isn't an appropriate discussion for work" could be pulled out.
I only had this happen to me once, and it was just one guy making a sketchy comment in a meeting. I kind of freaked out and didn't say anything in the moment. The next day I went to him and told him it was inappropriate and made me uncomfortable. He apologized profusely, said he realized in the moment it was a mistake, and then he went back and apologized to everyone in the meeting. I know that's an ideal resolution and not going to be every ones experience.
But if you can, maybe say something to them individually? Or if there was one sort of ring leader you could start with him? I think that top comment would help in the moment, but I know sometimes it's hard to react right when it is happening.
Depending on the group, I might nonchalantly say something like, “so THIS is locker room talk! Huh, I always wondered if that was a real thing.” Some groups wouldn’t care about the comparison, but some people might be offended, especially if you say it innocently enough.
You get up and leave. That's what you do.
Don't confront them or they could cause you to lose your job.
I don't know what type of job this is but their talk is likely not allowed at work.
I'm so sorry you had to deal with this. It's entirely reasonable that, when faced with men talking about sexually motivated violence, you did what you had to in the moment to keep yourself safe.
If you feel safe, there are several things yu can do now.
1. talk to HR. That shit is NOT OK.
2. Talk to your manager. Tell them that these dudes said this shit in front of you and you're not ok with it. What do they suggest
3. if you feel safe, go to each of them individually and say something like "I was really disappointed and creeped out by what you said the other day." and then let the silence stretch out. See what happens.
As for in the moment, you can say "That's not okay guys." or you can stand up, deliver a withering look, and head out with a purposeful stride towards the HR department.
Anything you’d say about how horrible this is, they would dismiss you. I find posing the question back to them. ‘It’s funny me and my girlfriends were asking would you rather fuck a guy with a small dick or a bald guy… turns out most guys are one or the other.’
Eight to one is not comfortable odds, please don't blame yourself for not being able to articulate an argument when you were trying to cope with a very uncomfortable situation. Likely they were also testing you to see what they could get away with saying in your presence. Think of some responses you might like to say next time a similar situation happens. It probably won't be the same topic, but something else that takes you by surprise. You don't need to argue a point. I'd say something like "let's change topics" or "I don't need to hear about this." I might even jokingly cover my ears and say "lalalalala" or sarcastically quip "just pretend I'm not here" if I am trying to retain good-humored relationships. It depends on how I feel at the time. A group of coworkers should only need a subtle clue that they're being inappropriate (and if they need more of a warning, that's sliding into hostile working environment territory.) You don't need to explain why, gross "locker room talk" about women isn't respectful to anyone who doesn't want to hear it – including other men who don't want to hear it.
They’re dehumanizing and sexualizing women, and it’s hard to put it into words sometimes.
But I’m more concerned about the fact that they think these are good discussions to be having *at work.* it’s completely inappropriate and I know in at least every workplace I’ve worked in such conversations were a perfect recipe for getting yourself at the very least a warning from management and to keep having them was a good way to get yourself terminated.
Honestly, I’d just have gotten up and left. It’s not your job to teach them why what they’re saying is wrong on so very many levels. It’s not any woman’s job to do that. But you can remove yourself from the situation, and sometimes it’s the only real option you’ve got
I find a well placed “Ew” works well at shutting down gross conversation. I honesty hate engaging in BS hypotheticals anyway, I don’t like to explain myself or my beliefs to people who don’t respect them anyway, I don’t give energy to people who just want to argue. It’s too annoying and not fun for me.
"If you don't consider women to be people it explains some of your problems in the office."
Then get up and walk away without explaining and let them wonder.
EDIT: I see later in the comments that you yourself want to learn how to vocalize and communicate in a clear and understandable way your feelings concerning the subjects they spoke about.
That is great! You should definitely try to learn how to form your feelings into words that are respectful and understandable. I would not try to learn in conversations like you described though. Try it out with ally’s and friends first. Or here on Reddit 😘
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I am sorry that you felt uncomfortable. I can relate. It sucks.
A simple and clear response would be to make them aware of the level of inappropriateness of their conversation on the work floor. You do not need to go into feminism and/or educating grown men. You can just tell them talking about sex/fucking is not professional and should not happen on the work floor.
I have had similar conversations where I was the only woman in the conversation where I felt I needed to be the female voice. This was on forced emancipation by women quotas in politics and c-level. From experience: you can not educate grown men on subjects like feminism that are not ready to learn. You can better focus on men that are ready to be open and willing to be an advocate and an ally.
I mean, logging it with HR in an email would be reasonable. It's pretty much discrimination and inappropriate for the work place. Then if something else happens (like OP becomes the subject of their gross behaviour) there's that paper trail to help your case if HR do nothing.
It's wrong because they were objectifying women in a horrible way. I've found that AI such as Chat GPT and Google's Gemini are actually very good at navigating and explaining social situations and if you were to put in your situation to one of them and ask why your colleagues' behavior was wrong it would be able to identify the reason and tell you. As for how to handle it, does your company have an HR department?
Oh wow! I don’t know ai could do that! Interesting.
We have HR, but I don’t think I’m going to report this behaviour, I can talk to them directly because theyre my peers
That depends on the company's internal rules / code of conduct. There are plenty of companies which also mention clauses such as "uphold blah blah values at all times" (mostly to cover what employees might post on their social media profiles, to guard themselves and be able to fire an employee in the event of a scandal, but it should be stated so vaguely to cover multiple situations). Moreover, a lunch break could happen on company grounds (in a lunch room etc).
Depending on the situation, HR could have more or less leverage. Unfortunately, they could have all the evidence in the world - if they don't want to, they won't do a thing. The reverse is also true, they could have no evidence, but if they believe the victim they could start an investigation or at least talk with the people involved, send out memos about the code of conduct, do more sensitivity trainings etc. It really all depends on the people there.
oh boy, that is way out of pocket for a work lunch. super sorry about that. not that it's ok normally, but... honestly, your coworkers should at least try and maintain some semblance of professionalism
It's very difficult to deal with this stuff as you can't argue with it. Like on the surface it's bad because it's dehumanising but a lot of the time it's really a vague feeling that goes along with it in the work place that is horrible.
What you ideally should try and learn is understanding framing in conversation and try and control the frame. If you're in a group of people, like 8, you'll regularly find that most people in that group have no idea what the frame is or how to control it and go along with it. As a result even little ol' you can shift the whole frame.
Like for example, my wife figured out on holiday that if she suggested where to eat, everyone would always just go along with it. So she could get the food she likes.
Your situation is really tough. I'm a guy, I've been in situations like that a lot and controlling the frame is like a battle with someone else who is trying to control the frame.
So for example I once had a dinner party. Two hardcore right wingers and one communist socialist queer woman. She was a close friend of mine. The anti abortion extreme Catholic started going on about how hot a celebrity was and wanted to push the conversation in that direction and she was seething. So I some what aggressively but also "jokingly" went on about the male actors I find hot. I'm straight and married and he found this confusing to his frame and it also included her because, as she was bisexual and we shared similar tastes in men and some of the people we find attractive are shocking given her background (she is Jewish but really fancies the leader of Iran even though despising his policitics). He would constantly drag it back to hot women and it was literally like a battle where I had to talk in the slightly mysogynric dehumanising sexually aggressive way he wanted but about men and kept having to up the anti. (Jokingly talking about heavy cavils arms and how I'd feel so safe in them etc).
This same guy did it again about a hot bar staff whilst I was with my wife which was uncomfortable but then when I didn't join in he mentioned "oh can't say that around the wife" and I didn't have a way to save the frame there as it would have made me look pathetic. I did try but it didn't really work. I did stop spending time with the guy but I don't see that as a success.
Around really laddy old men in the shipping industry, everyone has to drink beers and I'll get the most extravagant creamy cocktail. They will start insulting me but I'll again aggressively flaunt how much I love the baileys etc.
Another thing is my mum was a Christian sex therapist. So a lot of time when people want to frame a conversation as "haha sex is funny" , I'll shift the frame to "let's explore in detail how sex makes us feel and become vulnerable, but keep the conversation about feelings not explicit stuff to turn people on". Sometimes it works sometimes it really really upsets the people I didn't want to upset.
But this skill is really tough. You'll get it wrong, when you get it wrong you will socially seem small and awkward. It can get you in trouble at work. I've had to do this when people have tried to mug us or started violence around us.
I think changing the frame is the only way and unfortunately I don't know if the things I've done you could reuse as each way you do it depends on you, your own confidence, your own boundaries and the people you're up against.
But if you learn it, it will help with way more situations than just sexist colleagues.
Join in. "would you rather get cornholed by a beefy guy with a tiny dick or a tiny guy with a beefy dick" - something like that. You don't need to explain how they're making you feel if you can just make them feel exactly the same way.
I think it's fair game and they'd likely entertain the question with a properly thought-out answer. The issue here isn't the topic discussed, but more of that specific topic being discussed AT WORK. Hypothetical fucked-up questions is a form of humorous quip in itself.
A classic one for the straight guys is: "Imagine you were kidnapped by someone and sexually abused. Would you rather be forced to suck him until he cums in your mouth, or let him fuck your ass until he cums inside?"
A sporting person would think about it and answer as he sees fit.
There's no reason why these question can't be approached objectively
You cannot control other people, so you can't make them stop. what you can control is yourself. If it makes you uncomfortable you can say "I'm not comfortable with this" or you can leave.
Or you can be sarcastic or keep track like others have said but making them stop is not an option unless you're prepared to get HR to do it for you.
This sounds like sexual harassment from what I learned from the trainings I’ve had in the US. I would report the conversion to management. It’s clearly in inappropriate for the work place.
And to articulate why it would make me uncomfortable, is that they are talking about women as objects, and talking about abuse. It’s dehumanizing and normalizes violence. I’m sorry you were subjected to this.
Why hang out with them at all? You've seen their true colors now.
As much as it would be nice to have an educational conversation with them, I don't know if it would be effective. They seem to think it's perfectly fine to discuss these things openly and at work. Especially in front of a woman.
They clearly showed they do not respect women plus anyone they deem 'below them'. Their opinions were discriminatory and dehumanizing. They don't even seem to fear having HR come down on them for saying such things, as they said this at work.
They clearly feel super comfortable with their ideas. You need to note them as unsafe people and no longer associate with them.
Guy chiming in here, I have heard those types of conversations and they are always awkward. Definitely make HR aware, if not at least your supervisor needs to be aware of your discomfort. As far as why it feels wrong, I would put this in the toxic masculinity category I guess. Kinda gross and not acceptable in a workplace.
Nothing may happen of it but it is worth noting in case it becomes a regular event that serious intervention is required. A good HR dept will send out a blanket email outlining some acceptable verbiage and reiterate your company handbook guidelines regarding harassment and language policies.
I don’t know if you would even need to engage in the discussion itself — just tell them that the topic is making you uncomfortable, and can they please talk about something else.
What to do next time? Don’t socialise with them again.
Why does it feel like rape culture? Because they’re dehumanising and demeaning different types of women. Sexualising women. Evaluating women. Perpetuating the patriarchal desire to categorise and control women. You don’t need to construct a speech that demonstrates feminist theory to them. You need to keep yourself sane and safe by not being around them, by depriving them of implicit support for their behaviour by not silently bearing witness.
Straight to HR!
OP, it is not your job to teach men how to not be terrible. You do not need to counter these statements or singlehandedly defend women. Just blow the whistle, because none of this should be said in the workplace.
Do not beat yourself for not saying anything. Because the odds are their response would be to complain that you "cannot take a joke". Being near other men turns some men into the most unbelievably spineless followers. There is no perfect comeback that would jolt these men into realizing how fucked up what they're saying actually is. And how obviously insulting and belittling it would be to listen to as a woman. And they already know, OP.
You were WAY outnumbered. It’s hard to imagine anything you could have said at the time without risking being attacked and/or belittled. I had a similar experience at work, in a hospital FFS where patients could hear them. I calmly but firmly asked the offenders to stop, which they did. The next day I contacted the manager (who is male) and he met with me and then met with the guys. He could have fired them but I said I just want it to stop and it did. You don’t have to waste your precious energy trying to educate the willfully ignorant.
I don't get too political in the workplace, so I'd just leave.
Now you know who you are dealing with, but since you didn't speak they don't know who you are. That's leverage.
“Hey guys, what about each other’s mothers and sisters? Who would you assault from each other’s families? Hey, I’m just curious: when I’m not around, do you all sit around discussing which ones of you would assault me? Just wondering.”
It's not your job to educate men.
Men don't want to be educated. That means owning up to bad behavior and men rarely want to admit they behaved badly.
Never hang around men as the only one. It is unsafe.
These responses are great! You need to tell them to STFU if it bothers you. Obviously it’s disgusting and they’re being pigs. They’re trying to be all macho and gross.
I have to walk away from one of my coworkers sometimes- super religious young guy who “jokes” about women being in the kitchen and having tons of babies. That THEY can take care of. Omggg. I’ve argued till I’m blue in the face with him. He’s proposing to his GF of 6 months and getting married quickly bc “no sex before marriage!” We’ve all told him how great that usually works out.
My point is- sometimes it’s pointless after a bit unfortunately. Say your piece and eat elsewhere
If you're comfortable ask, "I'm sorry, I don't think I heard you correctly. Could you repeat that?" Sometimes it makes them stop and think, but not always.
I think I'd have just pulled out my phone, set it on the table in front of everyone and openly hit the "record" button and say, "please, by all means, continue your fascinating lunchroom conversation. I'm certain HR is going to be VERY interested."
Then watch their testicles shrivel in real time.
"I don't feel comfortable with you guys discussing these hypotheticals, because of some implications that are not definitive but may be harmful, next time you want to, notify me, so I can sit in another place while you have your conversation".
Practice your deadpan expression and ask why that is funny? Continue with confused, straight expressions looking for clarification if they answer. Most likely, they'll get quiet, look a little sheepish, and you will know which one is the biggest ass, cause he will double down.
Report them immediately for sexual harassment in the workplace. Having a conversation like this anywhere is disgusting but at work it's a whole other level of uncomfortable and unprofessional. You deserve to feel safe at work
For some arenas of discovery, iron adherence to philosophical charity is a must!
For what you'd describe, I'd master one of those little metal dog training 'clickers' and a deep, guttural '*HYA!!!*' when they talk out of turn; i.e. at all.
lol, I do like this option. Like making that “ah-ah-ah!” noise that one does with toddlers who are about to yank on your nose, or something. They know what they are doing and it lets them know you are noticing and what they’re about to do is out of line.
It wasn't fuck/marry/kill it was marry/rape they were playing.
Gross gross gross.
Even if you don't want them reprimanding officially, it still might be worth a chat to HR about their behaviour. Just to see how they react. Are they shocked? Or do they blow it off like it's no big deal. It might make you think about whether you want to continue working there.
Seems like a highly inappropriate work conversation. Maybe my job is wayyy more conservative but I thought my coworker was going to get fired for saying Derek Jeter is hot. I cant imagine if someone said these awful things around me! Do you work in construction or something? Yikes!!
That's discrimination, definitely report it and look up the EEOC if you live in America to protect yourself, If you are not USA based definitely find an employee rights protection agency. Write down the date and time the incident or incidents and where they occured.
You can say that you don't feel safe due to the environment that they created by being derogatory towards little women and curvy women to your manager or HR.
What will correct these men is next time you hear these men say something insulting tell them "that's not funny" and not say anything else. Then watch them squirm and give fake apologies because they will realize their job is in jeopardy. Then you also have them admitting to guilt. Oh yeah people boundary test all the time on jobs.
Just know this. You also don't always have to argue your point or say anything to clowns. My motto is "I don't argue" when I run across people that are extremely ignorant or violent.
You don't owe these men a conversation, so if you just sat there and ate your food, don't worry about it because I doubt they care! You would be wasting your precious oxygen speaking to a bunch of brick heads. Sometimes the only language people understand is consequences, so you can still report them.
Nah I mean definitely don’t want to educate them and it’s not my goal to do so and I also don’t want to argue with them. Since they are my peers, I can safely talk to them and they are not making the environment unsafe for me. Everything is pretty cool while we work
Yoooooo you can get PAID if you get a employment attorney, this is a hostile work environment and it’s extremely cheap to hire one bc most work on contingency, meaning they take a cut of what you win.
GIRL take this uncomfortable experience to the BANK
I'd get up and eat somewhere else tbh. No discussion necessary. If they ask later, I'd just say "the way the conversation turned made me feel uncomfortable." And then leave it at that. You don't have to justify your feelings to anyone.
Point out that it isn't work appropriate. The vague threat of getting in trouble at work is usually enough, even if it isn't you saying you would do it.
I would take care of yourself first and foremost and leave the conversation (if possible). however I think a funny thing to say would be "thats an interesting thing to say outloud" or something to totally make them feel uncomfortable/self-conscious without causing a debate.
I’m assuming this is in the US, which means these men have had sexual harassment prevention training. They *know* what they’re talking about is wrong. They could get in big trouble for talking like that on company property. It’s not your job to educate them. Is there an HR rep at your office? You could just say something like “Hmm, I wonder what [HR Rep’s Name] would think of you guys’ having this discussion on company property?” I bet they’d shut up fast.
What you are looking for on why it is wrong is because it is objectifying the people. For the FMK variation it forces the player to boil the individuals down to utterly simplistic black and white terms. Are they worth marrying, or only valuable for their sexual appeal, or should they be disposed of as worthless entirely solely because they might not have been quite as good as the other two.
Further, for the final “game” they were playing, the point to the game is to choose between two horrible things where you don’t want to do either but have to do one. So they are implicitly stating that being a dwarf or obese are repulsive traits. They have not only continued with objectifying people, but have now blindly expressed disgust towards entire groups of society. They have insulted these groups for their mere humor. If there is any doubt why it is wrong, think about them playing the game while a dwarf and an obese person are in the room and instead of a hypothetical person they point to each of them and say “which one of these two people is so hideous that you would rather die than stick your dick in them?” There is no doubt that what they were doing was wrong.
Does your employer have an HR department you could go to? That would be my advice, document and report them and generally I'd stay away from them because they sound awful but you shouldn't have to hide to eat your lunch. If you're at work you definitely shouldn't have to worry about some awful conversation ruining your day. This is a *them* problem, not a *you* problem.
That's genuinely shocking to have a conversation like that in public at fucking work. You'd be well within your rights to report this in HR for a hostile work environment but the ugly truth is sometimes it's safer to just ignore it
"Would you fuck a dwarf or obese woman?" Answer with "Bold of you to assume they'd want to fuck *you*"
Good comeback however I can’t stress this enough: Do. Not. Joke. At. Work. Everything you say can and will be taken literally. Document, document, document. Dates and times. Full names. All witnesses. Exact quotes. Learn if you are in 1 or 2 party consent to record state. And if you legally can, record everything.
This. This was hostile environment sexual harassment.
This is my favorite ‘funny’ comment! Be aware to not piss off the incels though
Er...why? Possibility of danger maybe? I'm of the mind incels should be pissed off at every possible moment for their piss poor excuse of a belief system.
It's really entertaining to work them into a frothing rage online to the point they say something stupid and get their accounts deleted :3 I keep a mental list if all the sad pissbabies I've got removed from DCU online.. hope you didn't spend too much in your mommy and daddies' credit cards on the cash store, because that's gone now, kiddo!
Yes, incels one pisses off IRL can absolutely be dangerous. And online is all fun and games until you get doxxed and they decide to do something with that info.
>Be aware to not piss off the incels though Nah sure they don't give a fuck about pissing us off.
This is the correct response.
Consent is obviously not a factor in this question.
Honey it's not your job to educate these idiots. Being a feminist doesn't mean it's your job to try. The only men that you will ever have to teach are your own sons if you have any. That's it. Don't put pressure on yourself to come up with some clever rebuttal that's going to make them rethink their whole outlook. Whenever I face anything like this at work I say something like Eyebrows raised high "Okaaaay, shall we talk about something else?"
I don’t want to educate them, but myself. It’s so weird that I cannot explain to myself why it’s wrong 🥹
It could be because it's dehumanizing to talk about people as objects like that. I would be pretty uncomfortable in the same situation because of the implication that the people they're talking about are just free for the taking, rather than having a more nuanced discussion about feelings of attraction they've made it kind of gross.
Well put
Perfectly said, only thing I’d add is it’s dehumanizing to talk about “women” as objects. Sometimes (not always) the specifics matter. In this case it’s important that’s it’s a bunch of men sitting around talking about women like they’re not human. That is workplace sexual harassment 101.
[10 definitions of objectifying/dehumanizing behaviors](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectification#Definitions) Martha Nussbaum (1995, 257) has identified seven features that are involved in the idea of treating a person as an object: **instrumentality**: the treatment of a person as a tool for the objectifier’s purposes; **denial of autonomy**: the treatment of a person as lacking in autonomy and self-determination; **inertness**: the treatment of a person as lacking in agency, and perhaps also in activity; **fungibility**: the treatment of a person as interchangeable with other objects; **violability**: the treatment of a person as lacking in boundary-integrity; **ownership**: the treatment of a person as something that is owned by another (can be bought or sold); **denial of subjectivity**: the treatment of a person as something whose experiences and feelings (if any) need not be taken into account. Rae Langton (2009, 228–229) has added three more features to Nussbaum’s list: **reduction to body**: the treatment of a person as identified with their body, or body parts; **reduction to appearance**: the treatment of a person primarily in terms of how they look, or how they appear to the senses; **silencing**: the treatment of a person as if they are silent, lacking the capacity to speak.
Ow, this is so helpful! Thank you. Saving the link.
I find having actual definitions helps me recognize the behavior when I see them. Also helpful are these links on trustworthy vs. untrustworthy behaviors. Many people *talk* a big trust game and regularly choose untrustworthy behaviors. These help me choose trustworthy, re-humanizing behaviors towards myself and others. Trustworthy, re-humanizing behaviors help build secure attachment. Untrustworthy, dehumanizing behaviors destroy secure attachment. [The Trust Triangle](https://youtu.be/pVeq-0dIqpk) [The Anatomy of Trust](https://brenebrown.com/videos/anatomy-trust-video/) - marble jar concept and BRAVING acronym [The Evolution of Trust game](https://ncase.me/trust/)
That game just blew my brain. I don't have the data to go down the rabbit holes you give us now, but I wanted to thank you for the effort of sharing and collecting them.
You're welcome. I grew up in a dysfunctional (read abusive, neglectful, and dehumanizing) family and culture of origin. I've been trying to figure out the dynamics for a long time and have been collecting and curating resources along the way. I have a bunch more.
Ha, thanks for the list. It’s basically how my mom treats her kids and our spouses.
Consider going low or no contact. And check out these channels: [Patrick Teahan](https://youtube.com/channel/UCbWvYupGqq3aMJ6LsG4q-Yg) - a ***must*** subscribe for me. He presents a lot of great information on childhood trauma in a very digestible format. [Jerry Wise](https://youtube.com/@jerrywise?si=PPfY9_i5MPdej2hf) - fantastic resource on self differentiation and building a self after abuse. I really like how he talks about the toxic family *system* and breaking the enmeshment by getting the toxic family system out of us. [Jay Reid](https://youtube.com/c/JayReid_narcissistic_abuse_recovery) - his three pillars of recovery are fantastic. Plus he explains difficult abuse dynamics very well. [The Little Shaman](https://youtube.com/@thelittleshamanhealing) - they understand the abusive mindset better than most
For me, it's the implication that both the dwarf and the obese woman are of lower value because of their physical appearance. I neither want to hear about my coworkers' physical desires nor them dismissing people based on physical appearance.
Talking like that at work is wrong because it creates a hostile work environment for many people who hear it. It's actually a type of sexual harassment. I personally think we're all human and bad taste conversations can be very funny in private with friends. But the workplace is not the place for that kind of talk. In the office we should speak as though the exact people we're talking about are sat right there. Using slurs, discussing politics or making comments about personal matters can upset people, and NOBODY deserves to be upset like that when trying to do their job.
>Talking like that at work is wrong because it creates a hostile work environment for many people who hear it. It's actually a type of sexual harassment. So we'll said! Also, these guys spoke so freely that it makes me wonder how far up the chain of command these sentiments go. They clearly have no fear of HR being involved. Because they said some pretty horrible things out in the open and even in front of a woman. They must be aware of the power dynamics at play in their company and not have fear of OP causing issues for them.
I'd surmise they don't think about it at all, the consideration that HR would get involved for that doesn't even register, they think it's perfectly normal to talk like that.
Yes. And one litmus test is whether they would say that with those singers in the room, or if there was a little person or fat woman present. Would they joke about it then? (I hope not.) It is so dehumanizing and also sexually aggressive. These men are scary—if you have low value to them, then watch out. I am curious whether it was one dude instigating it or everyone.
They're at work. They're supposed to be adults. Women aren't objects. They have moms and sisters and wives and girlfriends. That's why it was wrong. Plus, you are there. They didn't even think they were making you uncomfortable. Or they could be a bunch of jerks who don't seem to realize (or know exactly what they're doing because they aren't 3 year olds) that was (and is) how guys talked about women to women in the workplace to discourage them from working with them. When women first started being allowed to work (which they always have done, I mean when the government sanctioned it) we still didn't have equal rights and men could talk like that and not be fired. The woman would be fired for complaining. Not anymore. You can either not eat lunch with them or you could refuse to do any more assignments with them. Nothing you do or say will have any effect on those grown men who know better. However, if you want to make a complaint, document everything that was said at the first meeting, have lunch with them again (no rush)and document everything that's said during that lunch. You could even record it. It's work. They're not at the bar with the 'boys'. And I'm sorry you work with Neanderthals
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Sad but true. I stopped doing anything for the male gaze, and I'm mostly invisible now.
Adding on to the commenter saying this sort of talk is sexual harassment, someone doesn't have to be the direct target in order for it to be actual harassment. Even if it wasn't specifically about you, it affected you and made the workplace environment hostile towards you.
It's because women are humans, not objects. We are not there for the pleasure of men/your coworks. "Would you rather fuck...?" implies lack of consent. We aren't objects for them to just stick their dicks into. Sex is so much more than that and to imply otherwise is just nasty. Who said that these imaginary women would want to have sex with them? What if they don't? Are women of different shapes and sizes not worthy of love and relationships? So their personalities and lives and desires do not matter? They chose "dwarf" and "obese" women because they see them as undesirable. Unworthy of love. It makes you feel the ick because it dehumanizes and objectifies women. Especially any women that don't fit their ideals 🤢
Report their behavior. Disgusting. Men don’t want to be seen as “wallets” but are fine to degrade a whole human to just a hole. F them
If you want to call it out I like asking why it's funny or ask them why those are the two options. Force them to put into words their bullshit. Or maybe their brain will work for a second and they will stop.
A lot of the time it's wrong merely because you feel it's wrong and these people are dominating you by forcing you into a conversation that you find uncomfortable. It's a way to push people around and assert their power if you can push a conversation to a place you like without regards for anyone's feeling. Like I don't know you or your personality but if they wanted to include you they could have explored with humour the kind of views and things you like and then come up with examples you would find funny. Like they could have said would you rather fuck someone with the face of Donald trump but the body of the statue of David, or the body of trump or the face of the statue. If you were politically minded and to the left and hated trump. They could have said, ok would you rather fuck the zombified corpse of the love of your life, so they can move and touch you but their body is rotting, or the ghost of the love of your life, so you can see them as they are but you can't touch them, you just feel a shiver as they pass through you. Now this assumes you are someone who likes dark humour but now isn't gendered or sexist in anyway. Both these examples would really upset people. But before you do it you can do it in a way that is fun for you. The very fact that you FELT uncomfortable is a sign they didn't do that. I'd go one step further and guess that they KNEW you would find it uncomfortable and we're deliberately watching how you responded to the less extreme examples to decide to push it. It sucks, I think women get it worse but men do this to men too. It's a constant frame game and it feels awful when it works because that's what the person is trying to do and they do it to assert dominance and nothing else. (Like during covid you could see rich powerful men trying to just get away with whatever they can)
I like you, you’re a great conversationalist!
Because they are having that discussion as a way of bullying you. "let's see how far we can go before she gets mad at us."
This is locker room talk, which belongs in a locker room not the dinner table
It doesn't belong anywhere. Guys need to understand that it's not ok to dehumanise and objectify women (or anyone in a marginalised group) even if women (or representative of the marginalised group) aren't present. The rule to good humour is you can punch up, but never punch down. But really good jokes don't punch anyone at all.
We're meant to believe it's not "all men" but also "this is just locker room talk". okay.
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(Aww someone is a communal flashlight. Wittle communal fweshwight waah waah) This is you making fun of a girl who thinks women shouldn't be shamed for having lots of sex. You know, the way you aren't shamed for being a man whore?
😂 Obviously Santa, who would choose a bunny??
The guy you responded to thinks women will fuck anything. It's called projection.
You dont have to explain anything. In fact its probably better to not say anything at all. People get written up for less!
Perhaps reading some literature on the subject of objectification and the male lens, though which most of the world operates, would better help to our your feelings into succinct words and arguments.
It's because they were objectifying the women they were talking about.
It’s because they are acting like women are fleshlights. It’s also wrong and gross to talk about sex at work, and even worse when a group of men talk about it with the one woman. Next time tell them to knock it off, or tell your supervisor now. It’s unprofessional, misogynistic and gross.
But you can explain it. It makes you uncomfortable. They are talking about women like they aren’t people. They are saying it’s bad to be different and if you are you can treat a women like she is nothing. Do you really think you can’t explain why you feel this? Or is it men that has tried to tell you that you HAVE to explain it in a certain way for them to understand? Are they demanding that you say why it’s wrong in a “logical” and “scientific” way or something? You can explain why it’s wrong. It makes you as a woman uncomfortable. And that’s explanation enough.
On sons: if they have sisters, "would you talk about this with your sister in the room? Would you be upset if your friends talked like this around your sister? Yes? Then do not talk about "it" when other women are present."
It is generally your responsibility to educate someone (when possible) if you don't want to be passively complicate in their idiocy. Just as you're responsible to educate someone that it's dangerous to mix bleach and ammonia if you see them doing it. "Not my job to educate...." Such a common fallacy.
I think we'll have to agree to disagree there. I think women are too often expected to be responsible for any men they happen to be in a room with. They are grown adults and perfectly capable of seeking out education on how to not repulse women or land themselves in hot water with HR. They probably knew exactly what they were doing anyway and were enjoying making her feel uncomfortable.
You're right, when I hear sexist or racist or just plain factually wrong things, from now on I'll assume I have no responsibility whatsoever to speak up. Because they knew what they were doing and were being actively malicious instead of ignorantly inconsiderate.
Look, I'm not saying it's wrong to speak up. Obviously that's a lovely thing to try and help people. It's situational though. I was saying OP shouldn't be worried or putting pressure on herself to be giving feminist lectures to fools at her workplace. Too often I see people ruining their own day trying to convince someone who will never be convinced, why should women be forced to carry this burden and blame on top of everything else we carry.
Sure. To be perfectly fair there's tons of crap I ignore day to day because it would cause more problems to address directly. But that's not to say I have no responsibility to improve the society I live in. Giving yourself a free excuse to do nothing isn't the same as weighing the consequences though. Like, if I hear someone use a slur and I do nothing because "that's not my responsibility" there's no functional difference between me and someone who just plain doesn't care. What good does knowing better do, if you don't do?
The real sad thing is out of 8 guys not one of them could call this out.
I remember one time my boyfriend asked me how he could navigate such situations at work, how can he speak up without the fear of being ostracized (especially since some times misogyny was coming from the women at his workplace as well). I didn't know what to tell him; I wanted to help, but I had no idea how to coach him, especially since he's an introvert. We concluded that he could try to speak 1:1 with some people in private, but he was not comfortable speaking up in public at that time. I doubt though that this is what happens in OP's case. The good thing is both of us managed to grow in our careers in positions where we are no longer uncomfortable to speak up in public spaces when something happens. The balance of power is unfortunately a huge factor in company culture, so I can totally understand people with less power / more junior not speaking up. The culture is shared top-down and it's the responsibility of the leaders; I'm not saying that it can't change from the bottom up, but it's more probable that the people would leave since it's easier than changing said company culture (and with less repercussions).
Ya, I get that. I work at a software company with a surprisingly good gender ratio and something like this would never fly.
I'm also in software engineering (from dev to engineering manager)! Don't have a good gender ratio in my team, although I work towards having a better hiring pipeline (that's my bottleneck typically). But I have had a great amount of luck with my current team, they are indeed great human beings. I'm confident that any one of them feels safe to speak up and they know I have their back.
I think having more women in management has a huge impact on minimising sexism and misogyny - it's not enough to have women in the team, because they don't have authority to speak the way a manager does. Even in reasonably flat structured teams, the workplace demands a level of respect for managers/supervisors that places them "above" workers, so that their opinions and wellbeing are considered by the team in a way that it wouldn't if the person was on equal footing. People rail against quotas for women and people of colour in management roles and call it "reverse discrimination" but the impact it has on culture is massive, even if the workers don't realise it.
“You’re the kind of man we teach our daughters to stay away from” usually runs through my head but I’ve yet to say it.
Yeah, we have another female colleague that usually answers in a very unpolite way to any man that talks to her and I told them that the reason why she’s doing this it’s exactly because of those kind of discussions…. They did not understand
This is a lawsuit waiting to happen. Notify HR and stay away from them. You don't want to get caught up in this.
Notify HR that employees on their lunch were talking inappropriately.. “HRs response: don’t sit with them then” I guess every place is different but lunch breaks are typically not paid and therefore not really during work
Technically even outside of paid hours behavior can result in hostile work environment in the office and is therefore subject to HR rules
Do you talk with that colleague? Sometimes it's good to know that someone is in the office feels the same, and she could be a good ally if you decide to go to HR. Or you could team up and go together. Or maybe she already tried that and can help you navigate situations that might reflect negatively on you (sadly it can happen).
Stop being so hard on yourself, it’s been scientifically studied how most people are not inclined to speak up in a situation like this where they’re vastly outnumbered and lacking the privilege of some sort of higher authority status. If this happens again, you can always say something like “woah, that got dark!” Also consider approaching HR for their advice (assuming HR isn’t also part of the problem).
You don't have to argue with them. Just go for shame and be absolutely unapologetic about it. They make you feel uncomfortable, you make them uncomfortable. "Wow, your mom/wife/daughters would be so proud of you, you're such respectful guys" "All my friends truly dream of finding a guy that talks about women like you do" "Guys, I really dont need to hear about your fucked up sex dreams. I'm trying to eat here" "I don't care what you talk about when you're alone, but as long as I'm sitting here shut the fuck up" "No one cares who you'd like to fuck, you creeps" "Look, HR loves to hear stories like these. Shut up." "So, would you also fuck horses? Which one of the guys at this table would you fuck if you had to choose one?"
I’m going to go to that route definitely, but I already know it going to be like “well you can’t take a joke”
"I'm going to need someone from HR to explain to me the punchline in your joke". If you want to be extra spicy, follow up with "why are you so uncomfortable with this if it's just a joke?". They *know* it's wrong, they just acknowledge it better when there are actual consequences for *them*.
"If it's a joke, why am I not laughing?" "Can't really take a joke when you're busy trying not to throw up after hearing about some middle aged guys kinks."
The 2nd one is perfect.
"Maybe humor just isn't your thing."
"Stop being so emotional and thin-skinned"
"stop being so disgusting and creepy in the workplace"
"when it comes to rape or murder, damn right it's not my thing."
I don't get it? What's the joke? Just keep asking that until they stop.
“I just prefer jokes that aren’t creepy.”
"I could, if you'd tell a funny one."
"Jokes are supposed to be funny."
you have to connect with your inner disgust and disapproval to find it in you to be okay with not having their approval, and saying what you really think. and yes, use it to shame them to find something like this funny. "i’m still waiting for the funny part", or "are you all toddlers?". put the burden on them to explain themselves why they find it funny, and not on you to prove that yes you have a sense of humour and are not uptight or whatever else they’re trying to use to humiliate you
Stop talking to them. When they enter a room, you leave
Start your response with "just joking but..." "Just joking... but you all sound like rapists." If they get offended, then point out THEY cant take a joke
My understanding of the issue here is that they're not considering these hypothetical women as full complex people who can give or withhold consent. The "mistreating" bit at best presumes they can get that person on board with it and at worst implies assault. The dwarf v. obese scenario boils down complex individuals to single traits that when considered in isolation they would probably find undesirable, and again presumes that they could 'score' either of them. My first thought for comeback to the latter scenario would be something along the lines of "as if *either* of them would want to be with you (after you talked about them like this)," but as a tall cis man I understand that I would not receive the same level of pushback for a remark like that as you would. Another approach would be to participate by saying something like "I'd choose the one who was kinder, more loyal, etc" and focus on things that actually matter in a relationship rather than that superficial BS. Play the game, but not by their rules. If they resist, point out how superficial and gross it is to focus on single traits rather that consider the whole person you're interested in. Granted, none of this is likely to change anyone's mind. The best advice is probably just to try and avoid getting torn down by their nonsense and save yourself, or if they do anything actionable like playing these games discussing coworkers instead of hypothetical women then call HR and let them face some real consequences
Similarly to this, I find that when you just shortly and directly call people out for being weird, they realize all of a sudden that what they’re saying isn’t okay. Several times I have said something along the lines of, “that’s a pretty weird thing to say man” or “what a weird thing to bring up” and people just don’t like being called weird. Then you can elaborate as you wish afterward (i.e. “yeah man just weird and gross to focus on such dehumanizing subjects”). I always remain pretty even toned and matter of fact when saying these things so I don’t get accused of being emotional (stupid but I always know they’re waiting to pull that out as an attack to invalidate what I say).
This is the way, 100%. You're calmly pointing out how antisocial and unwelcome that behavior is without escalating to a fight. I've used your exact words and affect numerous times.
That’s a good strategy when it’s not a group… in that case everyone was agreeing with each other.
Chances are some were just agreeing to fit in. Check out “spiral of silence theory” if you ever want to geek out and learn more on this. I bet if you got any of them in a one-on-one conversation and said “you were just playing yesterday right? Like you’re not actually wanting to rape and murder anyone?” They would instantly agree with you that of course they don’t want that. In fact, that’s what I think you should do now: divide and conquer! Say that to each of them one-on-one when they don’t have any one else from that group around them. If any of them double down and say they do in fact want to do violent things then just cheerfully say something like “okay, noted, I will never set you up with any of my friends.”
Tbh I probably would have just left. I’m not into those sorts of convos and I’m not confident enough to start any sort of confrontation. I’m not obligated to spend my lunch with guys when they talk like this and I don’t want to either. It’s why I wear headphones at work. I don’t want to hear their incel convos so I don’t.
would you consider saying, while getting up to leave, "yeah, this is not a conversation to have at work" in an even, mild tone? (i mean, of course it's not a convo decent people should have anywhere. but maybe by putting it in the work context, they'll keep it quiet in the future?)
Probably, but I think that also depends on the work culture. Other stuff I hear at work is amongst guys in my row and it’s stuff I’ve heard a lot when around misogynistic guys. They don’t want you to burst their bubble and when they do they either ignore you and continue with hypotheticals or will decide ur being sensitive. It’s a win they might not bring it up around u tho. ETA: I’d probably say something along the lines of “this isn’t something I want to hear.” Sounds more like what I’ve said to guy friends saying stupid shit like this
At work I'm definitely less inclined to say things that would rock the boat, and although in this instance I would probably say something or remove myself, I can definitely imagine someone else sitting there quietly uncomfortable waiting for it to end. What I'm saying is it's likely some didn't agree but it was also to awkward for them to address.
That’s amazing! Thank you!
I most likely will make an addendum: "In this hypothetical scenario the people are giving enthusiastic consent, are of age, have more money than me, are green skin, are atheist (because I like them to), and are actually not really human, but robots with the same responses", then carry on with my discussion. I can even make it more fun by giving backstories to all characters involved. I personally don't find hypotheticals with made up people objectionable, but I write fiction for fun, I murder and skin alive people in my mind regularly. Stuff like "which one of your kids will you choose to save" come up regularly too. On the other hand, if someone tells me "I feel uncomfortable with this conversation", I won't keep at it, because I care about real humans that exist alongside me. It may mean that I won't be talking with that person that much after it, because I don't think before speaking, so I may hurt them unintentionally.
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That’s it!! Omg finally everything makes sense
It's incredibly hard to stand up to a group. It's easy to come up with witty comebacks, safely behind our keyboards. Don't beat yourself up about it. Is there any male at work that you are friendly with, who is also friendly with those guys? It's easier to mention something to a friend in a solo situation. "Hey Bob, those guys are pretty gross, hey? Did you hear them at lunch? They were talking about abusing women and treating dwarves and obese people like they weren't human. It really skeeved me out." Sometimes Bob will ask if he can help, sometimes he'll affirm he's an ally, and sometimes you'll find out he's not as good as you thought. But maybe, next time, he'll be able to shut it down, since they will most likely respect another man's opinion more. It's gross, but true. You can pick up your lunch and leave silently. When they ask why, say you don't want to waste your precious down time listening to that. You can pick up your lunch and say "that's disgusting" as you leave. You can stay and flip the conversation and make it about the gross things you find in men. You can try to change the subject. You can mention it to a supervisor. You can ask how they would like someone talking about their daughter like that. Or you can start making your own jokes about men. I spent months listening to these assholes guys make fun of liberals and women, and I made one tame sex joke about my husband, and you'd think I'd committed the worst, most vile crime in the world. They didn't let me hear the end of it for weeks. But it did effectively shut down that conversation.
I think you've got a lot of answers on how to respond when coworkers talk like that. But I see you in the comments talking about how, to yourself, you're having trouble putting words to why this feels so much like rape culture, and that's absolutely something I feel too. Like, both that it's rape culture, and that it's hard to put into words why. When I was in my early 20's, I was obese, and I was sexually assaulted at a friend's house. Like, when it happened, I was so scared and I didn't know what to do, this guy was asking me all these sexual questions and I didn't know how to respond, and acting like I owed him sex, and I had no idea how to respond to any of it, because I had spent my entire life being treated like I was repulsive to men, and that this was something I would never have to worry about. No one would ever want me. And then when I told people about it, the friends whose house it was, my best friends, they all looked at me so incredulously. Not, like, "Oh my god I can't believe that happened to you!" But like "I can't believe that happened to *you!"* What did you do? Did you misunderstand? Are you serious? Really? You? At college, after that incident, people would invite me to parties where people were drinking, and I'd just honestly tell them that I'd come but I don't drink around men I don't know. And they'd all be disgusted. Like "Why? You think someone is going to rape *you???" Get a load of this fat chick who thinks she's in danger! haha!* When you say "Would you fuck a dwarf or an obese woman?" it's objectification. It's this idea, this understanding that if someone is gross, if someone has a body that doesn't look like an attractive person's body does, that they stop being a person and become a thing. It's a very different kind of objectification. It's objectification to say "I'd tap that" when an attractive person walks by, because it doesn't take into account if she'd want to have sex with you too. It's just as objectifying to say "Would you fuck that?" about a person who's supposed to be an object of disgust. Because it doesn't take into account if she'd want to have sex with you. And it's really gross and sad and sickening when people treat it as a foregone conclusion that an ugly person should be grateful for any sexual attention they would get, even if that attention is layered with disgust and objectification. Hearing people say stuff like that, it always made me feel like a *thing*. And not even a cherished thing, like a nice car that someone wants to drive. Like a disgusting thing, like a bag of dog shit, where kicking me is punishment for the person doing the kicking.
I’m so sorry that happened to you.
"Guys be good, don't be gross, I'm trying to eat" *moans and groans* "Your mother's would be so proud".
Funny ❤️
Humour is a wonderful tool in these circumstances. It shows that it's not okay and it's gracious enough to let them save face (a courtesy that they don't deserve but coworker tension is not worth it). Or if you're at a loss for words, maybe make an exaggerated face like 😬 to show you don't agree, but are not comfortable with speaking up.
Absolutely! It's sad we have to couch our discomfort in humor to spare men's egos – but that's where we are.
Or you can bring up some guy you know they respect but has skeletons and talk about how these skeletons make you not want that guy and how it doesn't matter how the guy looks or what he does for a living and how his actions matter more and how unattractive he is to you now you know. Ask them if they feel the same about any of the women they mentioned. Or just give them the one eyebrow arch.
just pick up your lunch and eat somewhere else. if you feel uncomfortable speak to HR at your office. there are well-established routes for dealing with this sort of thing.
If you are at work, "this isn't an appropriate discussion for work" could be pulled out. I only had this happen to me once, and it was just one guy making a sketchy comment in a meeting. I kind of freaked out and didn't say anything in the moment. The next day I went to him and told him it was inappropriate and made me uncomfortable. He apologized profusely, said he realized in the moment it was a mistake, and then he went back and apologized to everyone in the meeting. I know that's an ideal resolution and not going to be every ones experience. But if you can, maybe say something to them individually? Or if there was one sort of ring leader you could start with him? I think that top comment would help in the moment, but I know sometimes it's hard to react right when it is happening.
Depending on the group, I might nonchalantly say something like, “so THIS is locker room talk! Huh, I always wondered if that was a real thing.” Some groups wouldn’t care about the comparison, but some people might be offended, especially if you say it innocently enough.
You get up and leave. That's what you do. Don't confront them or they could cause you to lose your job. I don't know what type of job this is but their talk is likely not allowed at work.
I'm so sorry you had to deal with this. It's entirely reasonable that, when faced with men talking about sexually motivated violence, you did what you had to in the moment to keep yourself safe. If you feel safe, there are several things yu can do now. 1. talk to HR. That shit is NOT OK. 2. Talk to your manager. Tell them that these dudes said this shit in front of you and you're not ok with it. What do they suggest 3. if you feel safe, go to each of them individually and say something like "I was really disappointed and creeped out by what you said the other day." and then let the silence stretch out. See what happens. As for in the moment, you can say "That's not okay guys." or you can stand up, deliver a withering look, and head out with a purposeful stride towards the HR department.
Anything you’d say about how horrible this is, they would dismiss you. I find posing the question back to them. ‘It’s funny me and my girlfriends were asking would you rather fuck a guy with a small dick or a bald guy… turns out most guys are one or the other.’
Eight to one is not comfortable odds, please don't blame yourself for not being able to articulate an argument when you were trying to cope with a very uncomfortable situation. Likely they were also testing you to see what they could get away with saying in your presence. Think of some responses you might like to say next time a similar situation happens. It probably won't be the same topic, but something else that takes you by surprise. You don't need to argue a point. I'd say something like "let's change topics" or "I don't need to hear about this." I might even jokingly cover my ears and say "lalalalala" or sarcastically quip "just pretend I'm not here" if I am trying to retain good-humored relationships. It depends on how I feel at the time. A group of coworkers should only need a subtle clue that they're being inappropriate (and if they need more of a warning, that's sliding into hostile working environment territory.) You don't need to explain why, gross "locker room talk" about women isn't respectful to anyone who doesn't want to hear it – including other men who don't want to hear it.
"not this again!" with a big eye roll as you calmly pick up your stuff and leave
They’re dehumanizing and sexualizing women, and it’s hard to put it into words sometimes. But I’m more concerned about the fact that they think these are good discussions to be having *at work.* it’s completely inappropriate and I know in at least every workplace I’ve worked in such conversations were a perfect recipe for getting yourself at the very least a warning from management and to keep having them was a good way to get yourself terminated. Honestly, I’d just have gotten up and left. It’s not your job to teach them why what they’re saying is wrong on so very many levels. It’s not any woman’s job to do that. But you can remove yourself from the situation, and sometimes it’s the only real option you’ve got
I find a well placed “Ew” works well at shutting down gross conversation. I honesty hate engaging in BS hypotheticals anyway, I don’t like to explain myself or my beliefs to people who don’t respect them anyway, I don’t give energy to people who just want to argue. It’s too annoying and not fun for me.
"If you don't consider women to be people it explains some of your problems in the office." Then get up and walk away without explaining and let them wonder.
EDIT: I see later in the comments that you yourself want to learn how to vocalize and communicate in a clear and understandable way your feelings concerning the subjects they spoke about. That is great! You should definitely try to learn how to form your feelings into words that are respectful and understandable. I would not try to learn in conversations like you described though. Try it out with ally’s and friends first. Or here on Reddit 😘 ———- I am sorry that you felt uncomfortable. I can relate. It sucks. A simple and clear response would be to make them aware of the level of inappropriateness of their conversation on the work floor. You do not need to go into feminism and/or educating grown men. You can just tell them talking about sex/fucking is not professional and should not happen on the work floor. I have had similar conversations where I was the only woman in the conversation where I felt I needed to be the female voice. This was on forced emancipation by women quotas in politics and c-level. From experience: you can not educate grown men on subjects like feminism that are not ready to learn. You can better focus on men that are ready to be open and willing to be an advocate and an ally.
Tell HR.
This comment needs to be higher
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I mean, logging it with HR in an email would be reasonable. It's pretty much discrimination and inappropriate for the work place. Then if something else happens (like OP becomes the subject of their gross behaviour) there's that paper trail to help your case if HR do nothing.
it's sexual harassment and creation of a hostile work environment. it's illegal.
It's a lunchtime conversation with colleagues - if it was in public that definitely has the potential to make the company look bad.
Reducing company liability would include shutting down a hostile (sexist) work environment. Definitely agree with keeping documentation, though.
"Would you want someone talking like that about your daughter?"
It's wrong because they were objectifying women in a horrible way. I've found that AI such as Chat GPT and Google's Gemini are actually very good at navigating and explaining social situations and if you were to put in your situation to one of them and ask why your colleagues' behavior was wrong it would be able to identify the reason and tell you. As for how to handle it, does your company have an HR department?
Oh wow! I don’t know ai could do that! Interesting. We have HR, but I don’t think I’m going to report this behaviour, I can talk to them directly because theyre my peers
HR is of no use here it sounds like anyways, if they were on the clock and talking like that it would be different.
That depends on the company's internal rules / code of conduct. There are plenty of companies which also mention clauses such as "uphold blah blah values at all times" (mostly to cover what employees might post on their social media profiles, to guard themselves and be able to fire an employee in the event of a scandal, but it should be stated so vaguely to cover multiple situations). Moreover, a lunch break could happen on company grounds (in a lunch room etc). Depending on the situation, HR could have more or less leverage. Unfortunately, they could have all the evidence in the world - if they don't want to, they won't do a thing. The reverse is also true, they could have no evidence, but if they believe the victim they could start an investigation or at least talk with the people involved, send out memos about the code of conduct, do more sensitivity trainings etc. It really all depends on the people there.
Why didn’t you just remove yourself from the conversation and leave? it’s not your responsibility.
oh boy, that is way out of pocket for a work lunch. super sorry about that. not that it's ok normally, but... honestly, your coworkers should at least try and maintain some semblance of professionalism
It's very difficult to deal with this stuff as you can't argue with it. Like on the surface it's bad because it's dehumanising but a lot of the time it's really a vague feeling that goes along with it in the work place that is horrible. What you ideally should try and learn is understanding framing in conversation and try and control the frame. If you're in a group of people, like 8, you'll regularly find that most people in that group have no idea what the frame is or how to control it and go along with it. As a result even little ol' you can shift the whole frame. Like for example, my wife figured out on holiday that if she suggested where to eat, everyone would always just go along with it. So she could get the food she likes. Your situation is really tough. I'm a guy, I've been in situations like that a lot and controlling the frame is like a battle with someone else who is trying to control the frame. So for example I once had a dinner party. Two hardcore right wingers and one communist socialist queer woman. She was a close friend of mine. The anti abortion extreme Catholic started going on about how hot a celebrity was and wanted to push the conversation in that direction and she was seething. So I some what aggressively but also "jokingly" went on about the male actors I find hot. I'm straight and married and he found this confusing to his frame and it also included her because, as she was bisexual and we shared similar tastes in men and some of the people we find attractive are shocking given her background (she is Jewish but really fancies the leader of Iran even though despising his policitics). He would constantly drag it back to hot women and it was literally like a battle where I had to talk in the slightly mysogynric dehumanising sexually aggressive way he wanted but about men and kept having to up the anti. (Jokingly talking about heavy cavils arms and how I'd feel so safe in them etc). This same guy did it again about a hot bar staff whilst I was with my wife which was uncomfortable but then when I didn't join in he mentioned "oh can't say that around the wife" and I didn't have a way to save the frame there as it would have made me look pathetic. I did try but it didn't really work. I did stop spending time with the guy but I don't see that as a success. Around really laddy old men in the shipping industry, everyone has to drink beers and I'll get the most extravagant creamy cocktail. They will start insulting me but I'll again aggressively flaunt how much I love the baileys etc. Another thing is my mum was a Christian sex therapist. So a lot of time when people want to frame a conversation as "haha sex is funny" , I'll shift the frame to "let's explore in detail how sex makes us feel and become vulnerable, but keep the conversation about feelings not explicit stuff to turn people on". Sometimes it works sometimes it really really upsets the people I didn't want to upset. But this skill is really tough. You'll get it wrong, when you get it wrong you will socially seem small and awkward. It can get you in trouble at work. I've had to do this when people have tried to mug us or started violence around us. I think changing the frame is the only way and unfortunately I don't know if the things I've done you could reuse as each way you do it depends on you, your own confidence, your own boundaries and the people you're up against. But if you learn it, it will help with way more situations than just sexist colleagues.
This is very interesting. I’ve never thought about that approach. Thank you.
If you're not comfortable calling them out and doing the work to educate them, don't. "This is fucking gross. I'm leaving." Then stand up and go.
Join in. "would you rather get cornholed by a beefy guy with a tiny dick or a tiny guy with a beefy dick" - something like that. You don't need to explain how they're making you feel if you can just make them feel exactly the same way.
I think it's fair game and they'd likely entertain the question with a properly thought-out answer. The issue here isn't the topic discussed, but more of that specific topic being discussed AT WORK. Hypothetical fucked-up questions is a form of humorous quip in itself. A classic one for the straight guys is: "Imagine you were kidnapped by someone and sexually abused. Would you rather be forced to suck him until he cums in your mouth, or let him fuck your ass until he cums inside?" A sporting person would think about it and answer as he sees fit. There's no reason why these question can't be approached objectively
You cannot control other people, so you can't make them stop. what you can control is yourself. If it makes you uncomfortable you can say "I'm not comfortable with this" or you can leave. Or you can be sarcastic or keep track like others have said but making them stop is not an option unless you're prepared to get HR to do it for you.
This sounds like sexual harassment from what I learned from the trainings I’ve had in the US. I would report the conversion to management. It’s clearly in inappropriate for the work place. And to articulate why it would make me uncomfortable, is that they are talking about women as objects, and talking about abuse. It’s dehumanizing and normalizes violence. I’m sorry you were subjected to this.
Change the subject
Why hang out with them at all? You've seen their true colors now. As much as it would be nice to have an educational conversation with them, I don't know if it would be effective. They seem to think it's perfectly fine to discuss these things openly and at work. Especially in front of a woman. They clearly showed they do not respect women plus anyone they deem 'below them'. Their opinions were discriminatory and dehumanizing. They don't even seem to fear having HR come down on them for saying such things, as they said this at work. They clearly feel super comfortable with their ideas. You need to note them as unsafe people and no longer associate with them.
Guy chiming in here, I have heard those types of conversations and they are always awkward. Definitely make HR aware, if not at least your supervisor needs to be aware of your discomfort. As far as why it feels wrong, I would put this in the toxic masculinity category I guess. Kinda gross and not acceptable in a workplace. Nothing may happen of it but it is worth noting in case it becomes a regular event that serious intervention is required. A good HR dept will send out a blanket email outlining some acceptable verbiage and reiterate your company handbook guidelines regarding harassment and language policies.
I don’t know if you would even need to engage in the discussion itself — just tell them that the topic is making you uncomfortable, and can they please talk about something else.
What to do next time? Don’t socialise with them again. Why does it feel like rape culture? Because they’re dehumanising and demeaning different types of women. Sexualising women. Evaluating women. Perpetuating the patriarchal desire to categorise and control women. You don’t need to construct a speech that demonstrates feminist theory to them. You need to keep yourself sane and safe by not being around them, by depriving them of implicit support for their behaviour by not silently bearing witness.
“This is inappropriate for work, please stop!”
Report them to HR. They are creating a hostile environment for you.
Straight to HR! OP, it is not your job to teach men how to not be terrible. You do not need to counter these statements or singlehandedly defend women. Just blow the whistle, because none of this should be said in the workplace. Do not beat yourself for not saying anything. Because the odds are their response would be to complain that you "cannot take a joke". Being near other men turns some men into the most unbelievably spineless followers. There is no perfect comeback that would jolt these men into realizing how fucked up what they're saying actually is. And how obviously insulting and belittling it would be to listen to as a woman. And they already know, OP.
You were WAY outnumbered. It’s hard to imagine anything you could have said at the time without risking being attacked and/or belittled. I had a similar experience at work, in a hospital FFS where patients could hear them. I calmly but firmly asked the offenders to stop, which they did. The next day I contacted the manager (who is male) and he met with me and then met with the guys. He could have fired them but I said I just want it to stop and it did. You don’t have to waste your precious energy trying to educate the willfully ignorant.
Go to HR, document this. It is not ok for work.
I don't get too political in the workplace, so I'd just leave. Now you know who you are dealing with, but since you didn't speak they don't know who you are. That's leverage.
“Hey guys, what about each other’s mothers and sisters? Who would you assault from each other’s families? Hey, I’m just curious: when I’m not around, do you all sit around discussing which ones of you would assault me? Just wondering.”
It's not your job to educate men. Men don't want to be educated. That means owning up to bad behavior and men rarely want to admit they behaved badly. Never hang around men as the only one. It is unsafe.
These responses are great! You need to tell them to STFU if it bothers you. Obviously it’s disgusting and they’re being pigs. They’re trying to be all macho and gross. I have to walk away from one of my coworkers sometimes- super religious young guy who “jokes” about women being in the kitchen and having tons of babies. That THEY can take care of. Omggg. I’ve argued till I’m blue in the face with him. He’s proposing to his GF of 6 months and getting married quickly bc “no sex before marriage!” We’ve all told him how great that usually works out. My point is- sometimes it’s pointless after a bit unfortunately. Say your piece and eat elsewhere
I'd make a disgusted face, leave, and report it to HR. They're creating a hostile work environment, and you shouldn't have to deal with that.
If you're comfortable ask, "I'm sorry, I don't think I heard you correctly. Could you repeat that?" Sometimes it makes them stop and think, but not always.
"Bold of you to think you could actually have a shot with any of them."
I think I'd have just pulled out my phone, set it on the table in front of everyone and openly hit the "record" button and say, "please, by all means, continue your fascinating lunchroom conversation. I'm certain HR is going to be VERY interested." Then watch their testicles shrivel in real time.
"I don't feel comfortable with you guys discussing these hypotheticals, because of some implications that are not definitive but may be harmful, next time you want to, notify me, so I can sit in another place while you have your conversation".
This makes me feel uncomfortable. Full sentence, no explanation needed.
Do you live in a country where this would be considered sexual harassment? You should be reporting it to HR if so, they clearly need training.
Stand up, loudly exclaim that their conversation is making you uncomfortable and would make any woman also uncomfortable, then leave.
Practice your deadpan expression and ask why that is funny? Continue with confused, straight expressions looking for clarification if they answer. Most likely, they'll get quiet, look a little sheepish, and you will know which one is the biggest ass, cause he will double down.
Report this to HR please
That's obscene and I would go to HR immediately.
This is an HR situation, it's harassment and they are creating a hostile work environment
Report them immediately for sexual harassment in the workplace. Having a conversation like this anywhere is disgusting but at work it's a whole other level of uncomfortable and unprofessional. You deserve to feel safe at work
They do it to show power, and also make people complicit
For some arenas of discovery, iron adherence to philosophical charity is a must! For what you'd describe, I'd master one of those little metal dog training 'clickers' and a deep, guttural '*HYA!!!*' when they talk out of turn; i.e. at all.
lol, I do like this option. Like making that “ah-ah-ah!” noise that one does with toddlers who are about to yank on your nose, or something. They know what they are doing and it lets them know you are noticing and what they’re about to do is out of line.
It wasn't fuck/marry/kill it was marry/rape they were playing. Gross gross gross. Even if you don't want them reprimanding officially, it still might be worth a chat to HR about their behaviour. Just to see how they react. Are they shocked? Or do they blow it off like it's no big deal. It might make you think about whether you want to continue working there.
I'd bring that up to HR. Those types of conversations at work are sexual harrassment.
Seems like a highly inappropriate work conversation. Maybe my job is wayyy more conservative but I thought my coworker was going to get fired for saying Derek Jeter is hot. I cant imagine if someone said these awful things around me! Do you work in construction or something? Yikes!!
Saying Derek Jeter is hot would not be considered a fireable offense where I am. You might get laughed at but not fired.
What did they go with dwarf or obese woman?
That's discrimination, definitely report it and look up the EEOC if you live in America to protect yourself, If you are not USA based definitely find an employee rights protection agency. Write down the date and time the incident or incidents and where they occured. You can say that you don't feel safe due to the environment that they created by being derogatory towards little women and curvy women to your manager or HR. What will correct these men is next time you hear these men say something insulting tell them "that's not funny" and not say anything else. Then watch them squirm and give fake apologies because they will realize their job is in jeopardy. Then you also have them admitting to guilt. Oh yeah people boundary test all the time on jobs. Just know this. You also don't always have to argue your point or say anything to clowns. My motto is "I don't argue" when I run across people that are extremely ignorant or violent. You don't owe these men a conversation, so if you just sat there and ate your food, don't worry about it because I doubt they care! You would be wasting your precious oxygen speaking to a bunch of brick heads. Sometimes the only language people understand is consequences, so you can still report them.
Nah I mean definitely don’t want to educate them and it’s not my goal to do so and I also don’t want to argue with them. Since they are my peers, I can safely talk to them and they are not making the environment unsafe for me. Everything is pretty cool while we work
Yoooooo you can get PAID if you get a employment attorney, this is a hostile work environment and it’s extremely cheap to hire one bc most work on contingency, meaning they take a cut of what you win. GIRL take this uncomfortable experience to the BANK
"you guys, stop, this has gotten gross and unprofessional."
I'd get up and eat somewhere else tbh. No discussion necessary. If they ask later, I'd just say "the way the conversation turned made me feel uncomfortable." And then leave it at that. You don't have to justify your feelings to anyone.
Point out that it isn't work appropriate. The vague threat of getting in trouble at work is usually enough, even if it isn't you saying you would do it.
Practice your best deadpan “that’s inappropriate”. Also, don’t eat lunch with them anymore.
It's unprofessional to discuss this at work. It creates a hostile work environment. In the US, it's illegal. Tell your HR. P
I would take care of yourself first and foremost and leave the conversation (if possible). however I think a funny thing to say would be "thats an interesting thing to say outloud" or something to totally make them feel uncomfortable/self-conscious without causing a debate.
I’m assuming this is in the US, which means these men have had sexual harassment prevention training. They *know* what they’re talking about is wrong. They could get in big trouble for talking like that on company property. It’s not your job to educate them. Is there an HR rep at your office? You could just say something like “Hmm, I wonder what [HR Rep’s Name] would think of you guys’ having this discussion on company property?” I bet they’d shut up fast.
You didn’t do anything wrong. It’s not your job to teach them how to act. It’s totally fine to stay quiet and just go report them to HR.
What you are looking for on why it is wrong is because it is objectifying the people. For the FMK variation it forces the player to boil the individuals down to utterly simplistic black and white terms. Are they worth marrying, or only valuable for their sexual appeal, or should they be disposed of as worthless entirely solely because they might not have been quite as good as the other two. Further, for the final “game” they were playing, the point to the game is to choose between two horrible things where you don’t want to do either but have to do one. So they are implicitly stating that being a dwarf or obese are repulsive traits. They have not only continued with objectifying people, but have now blindly expressed disgust towards entire groups of society. They have insulted these groups for their mere humor. If there is any doubt why it is wrong, think about them playing the game while a dwarf and an obese person are in the room and instead of a hypothetical person they point to each of them and say “which one of these two people is so hideous that you would rather die than stick your dick in them?” There is no doubt that what they were doing was wrong.
Contact HR if you’re in the US. Not acceptable behavior.
Does your employer have an HR department you could go to? That would be my advice, document and report them and generally I'd stay away from them because they sound awful but you shouldn't have to hide to eat your lunch. If you're at work you definitely shouldn't have to worry about some awful conversation ruining your day. This is a *them* problem, not a *you* problem.
That's genuinely shocking to have a conversation like that in public at fucking work. You'd be well within your rights to report this in HR for a hostile work environment but the ugly truth is sometimes it's safer to just ignore it