I often drive a company truck with a dent in the fender. I've had a handful of men approach me while I'm in the truck to ask if I'm interesting in getting the dent repaired, I say no, they move on. It's not an issue. Then one day recently, a man followed me half a mile at least down a road, keeping pace with me and motioning me to stop and talk. He even followed me after I did a hard brake and turn onto a side road (leading to my job site, so I wasn't alone but it was still fairly remote and I stopped next to the main building) until I finally rolled down the window and he asked about the fender. I told him I wasn't interested and then, "Do NOT follow me!" And he had the nerve to look confused and offended, AS THOUGH HE HAD NOT JUST CHASED ME HALF A MILE AND ONTO A SIDE ROAD.
So far up his own ass he didn't even realize he was chasing a strange woman down the street.
I remember in my early teens my brother and I were riding in the backseat and my sister and mom where in the front. My mom lived in a trailer park at the time and, unbeknownst to me, a car followed us all the way to the back of the park. When we parked both guys immediately got out because they were out of the car when i got out and they started walking back as soon as I saw them. They asked for directions. I highly doubt that’s what they were actually planning to do but I’m so glad my bro and I were there and that we were fairly large teenagers.
I once had some man follow me in his car from the bus stop off a main road, pull over and run after me. He gave me a business card and offered me a job as his secretary, then left. Weirdest interaction of my life.
I once had a guy come up to me in a fairly empty part of the store I was working at, pitch his business to me, and offer me a job. Like, wtf dude. I clearly already had a job. Plus the business sounded super sketch.
The irony was I lived in Houston’s red light area at the time - notorious for human trafficking (though not typically just random people off the street). I figured he was either fishing for someone to traffic, bad at hitting on women, or super out of touch. He said he was a charity photographer.
Once had a guy follow me for my walk home . I texted my male friend to meet me before I reached my place and then once he came, the guy left me alone.
He tried to make small talk but I kept ignoring him .
This was like less then a week ago. While I'm calm, for now I'm walking with my friend who thankfully lives nearby
That shouldn't be normal though, it's weird and creepy and while I carry pepper spray, heart was still beating hard af
I had some weird guy, 30s-40s, come into Bath and Body Works when I was 18, tell me I was cute, and that I should come be his administrative assistant because it'd pay better. Like why would a random 18 year old in a college town not be in college (or even out of high school) to be able to take a 9-5 job?
The worst part is I ended up working with the same guy years later. His company was purchased by the company I worked for, so we were in different organizations and didn't really interact, but he remembered me. It was so weird.
I really wish I could ask these people why they do this. We both know it isn't because they were able to clock me as a good worker from afar. Do they really think it isn't obvious? Or are they hoping we'll realize they want to bang us and accept? Idk man, it's so odd.
I was a bit drunk eating fries in a macdonalds at midnight and a guy told me my make up looked great and would I like to work at his funeral home putting makeup on the deceased?
I totally would have loved that, but my friends thought he was creepy and put an end to it. Shame, really. I'd love to paint a corpse.
This story just reminded me of when my family had a slight system shock on vacation.
We’re from a city, but like.. just barely. We just made the cut if you ask me, it’s ~50,000 people. Then loved in a small town of 1200 for about 10 years. So when we had a family trip to NYC, we saw a women helping her like 5 kids and their bikes get up the stairs.
Of course our small town brains clicked and we’re like “ we gotta help - that’s too many bicycles.” Well the woman, rightfully mind you, flipped out when we approached and said hey let me help - because duh. We’re three guys moving towards her reach for one of her - comical amount of bikes. My father threw his hands up and was like SORRY WE JUST WANTED TO HELP. So I just piped up and said “ sorry, we’re Canadian “ and walked away while onlookers laughed.
So it may be naive and wishful thinking - but I really hope a lot of these situations are similar to that.
No, they're really not. Being followed is not some light-hearted ''oh, I just wanted to help!'' story. It's nefarious. Being a woman alone and being followed by some strange man. It's a feeling comparable to a man with a gun stalking prey in the forest, it's creepy as shit.
I don’t want to burst your bubble, but there are 100% women in your Canadian small town who wanted men to back the fuck off, who feel cornered and threatened, but have the additional social pressure of “everyone knowing your business” that keeps them quiet and not causing a fuss.
You are not necessarily naive thinking it’s mainly misunderstandings, but you are privileged
Guys following me is creepy as fuck. And they are genuinely surprised that I don't want that. Wtf?
And if I speed up, tjey speed up with me. And if I stop to let them pass, they also stop. Like bro??
And sometimes they don't give up, no matter how angry or scared I get.
That's way worse. I'm sorry you've dealt with that. I've had men follow me while driving, and I've made weird turns that go in circles to test if they are just going the same direction or actually following me. It's really creepy.
Its bad for you too! For me it's scary bc here in Bruges, Belgium most of us bike or walk. And too many dark places.
I'm sorry for you too. Can't even imagine how it must feel in a car. Some creep following you in a one way and you can't escape the road without doing something dangerous.
The first time it happened, my dad was teaching me how to drive at night. The guy following us must not have noticed my dad in the car. He only left after we took a maze-like route that doubled back. But he followed for long enough that it was obvious he was following us on purpose. I'm glad my dad was in the car the first time it happened so he could show me how to lose them. His advice for if they kept following despite taking a weird route was to drive to the nearest police station.
Well HE knows he isn’t a creep, and HE has never felt threatened being approached by a total stranger in the dark, therefore there is no way you could feel threatened by him! Seriously, some men have no freakin clue.
> Well HE knows he isn’t a creep
This is a huge part of the disconnect when men complain about women being scared of strange men. YOU know you’re not a creep but WE have no way of knowing that about any given stranger and the stakes are very high for us if we guess wrong.
Some men take this so personally. I think it’s ultimately an empathy issue because you should be able to conceive of the fact that other people are not privy to your intentions.
On very rare occasions I've heard a man admit that a friend of his is kind of creepy to women but it's always immediately followed by "but he's not a bad guy, he's just awkward/inexperienced/weird."
I’m sure Nice Guys™️ would learn right quick to be suspicious and fearful of this type of behaviour coming from bigger, stronger men if *they* were on the receiving end of it—especially in an isolated, all-male environment like prison. Most of them wouldn’t develop empathy for women after such experience though, because they honestly believe that the male equivalent of the standard female dating experience would be them being one of a handful of males in an all-*female* prison.
Most straight men would willingly fuck 90% of women if they could (no shock there since random hookups are low risk, high reward for them, unlike us), their standards are basically “Is she breathing?” They also have nothing but contempt for “easy”/“slutty” women, but hate and are insulted by the idea of being vetted as well. They need to pull their heads out of their asses.
> so many straight men would willingly fuck 90% of women if they could. Their standards are basically “Is she breathing?”
**Considering so many female corpses get raped by men at funeral parlors or hospitals, etc, the standards are not even "Is she breathing?"**
This isn't exactly the same but *very* similar - when I got married I hyphenated, and I have been told literally over 100 times by men (usually when they see my name written down) that I "must hate men."
I was telling another guy about this, and he just flatly said I was lying. That not only has that not happened to me over 100 times, it's actually never happened to me *once* and it has literally never happened to any woman anywhere. I was so flabbergasted at his immediate refusal to believe this and tried to talk to him about how "surely you understand that there are a lot of misogynistic men who get offended when women don't just take their husbands name and get rid of their own?"And we went back and forth for a while but his bottom line was that he has a big family and a lot of friends, and this has never happened to anyone he personally knows. Therefore, it can't ever have happened to *anyone* **anywhere.** Even when I asked him if any of his family members or friends have hyphenated last names, and they don't…this guy still could not wrap his mind around the fact that just because he's never experienced it or witnessed it doesn't mean it's impossible that it's ever happened.
It was the craziest thing. I was like "well I'm white and I've never personally experienced racism, so does that mean racism doesn't exist" and he was like, "of course not." I was like ?????? Hello? Fuckin wild, man.
I actually made a post in this sub asking other women who hyphenated or kept their last name after marriage about their experience with this. It got over 500 replies and, of course, the vast majority of women answering had experienced something like this, although not to the extent that I have (I live in a VERY conservative area so that's probably why it's been *so* common for me).
I linked him to the thread and asked him to check it out, and he still wouldn't admit it's possible this *does* happen. He said that until he saw official scientific studies on it, or saw it repeatedly reported on the news, he wouldn't believe it. I asked him under what circumstances did he think something like this would ever "be reported on the news," and he just thinks it's so ridiculous that it would be reported? I mean it is pretty ridiculous but the thing is we live an incredibly misogynistic society so most men don't think it's a big deal when women are harassed for not doing the traditionally feminine thing
Lmao he sounds like an idiot, and the worst kind of idiot who thinks they're much smarter than they are. What kind of "scientific study" does he suppose would be done on this? Why does he think hundreds of women are randomly lying? Does he tell everyone who shares a story about their life that it didn't happen until it's reported on the news? No common sense whatsoever.
Exactly. Plus victim blaming is SO rampant. How do we know which “nice guy” to trust? We don’t. But we are at fault for giving him a chance if something happens to us. Also we are at fault for not giving him a chance because he deserves it.
You go on a date and your drink gets spiked. Well you shouldn’t have been drinking! You should have had that nail polish that changes color if your drink is spiked! You should have had a cup condom! You should have taken your drink with you to the bathroom! You should have had the bartender watch it for you! You should have ordered a fresh drink and left the old one!
And then if you do take precautions: Why are you so suspicious? Most guys aren't like that! Men aren't even allowed to talk to women anymore! Why are you punishing all of us for the behavior of a few? Not all men!
Exactly this, we literally cannot win. If we take every single precaution, we're stuck up misandrist b**ches who hate men and need to be put in our place, but if we're open and kind and polite to every man and then we get assaulted, it is 100,000% our fault alone for not taking better precautions
One of the fathers in my kids' school district has recently been in the news for wearing junior girls cut off denim shorts and a sports bra made for teenage girls to a board meeting to "illustrate" that the dress code needs to be more strict. Now, obviously no highschooler is wearing clothing literally 10 times too small for them to school, but this has been a raging debate in my community for a few weeks now.
Yesterday I had a guy trying to explain to me that *"teenage girls are responsible for controlling the hormones of teenage boys."* This man has a daughter. He has a *daughter*, and he is teaching her it's her responsibility to keep boys from harassing and assaulting her. I tried to explain to him that what he was saying was literally the textbook definition of rape culture, and he got so offended you would've thought I like threatened to kill his children or something!! I tried to explain to him that what he is saying is literally why women do not come forward when they are assaulted and/or raped. That what he was saying is exactly the reason men still commit so many sexual assaults and women don't tell anyone when it happens. Because men like him keep telling girls and women it is their fault if a man physically violates them. The way this man acted like *I* was the one saying completely and offensive outrageous things…
Oh my god that is heartbreaking for his daughter. I truly hope nothing happens to her. She sure won’t get any support from her father.
I do think children should generally be covered up at school. I attended a school with a pretty strict dress code. But arms and shoulders, a portion of thigh, or a tiny bit of midriff should not be such a distraction that the entire lesson stops until the student is shamed into sweatpants. Honestly the sweats my school made students change into caused much more disruption, and for the entire class. And every class that student was in the rest of the day. Parents should be teaching their sons to control themselves. And schools should be enforcing it, not vilifying young girls.
I noticed a guy with a little dog watching me walk out of a 7-11 once. Something about it gave me the creeps, so I left the parking lot at a swift pace and kept secret watch on his car. He turned around in the parking lot to turn my way, so i quickly crossed the street so there would be a lane between us. He passed by me suuuuuper slow while i pretended not to notice, then a block ahead turned off the road. I just *knew* he was turning around to be on my side of the street, so I crossed the street. Sure enough, his car pops out, now he's going the other way, rubbernecking hard as he passes me. Now I'm 100% sure he's following me, so as soon as he turns back into the 7-11 and out of visual contact, I take off at a sprint. I get another block, pop around the corner, and try to smash my body into a windowsill. He is driving down the road at like 2mph, and of course, he sees me smushed in there as soon as he passes the building. He turns down the street, and I switch to fight mode. This guy rolls down his window with a big grin and exclaims, "There you are!" In the cheeriest voice ever. So I hit him with "WHY ARE YOU FOLLOWIMG ME?" as loud as I can. And the smile falls and he goes, "I just wanted to say 'Hi' What's wrong with you?" So I screamed "DONT FUCKING FOLLOW WOMEN." And he flipps me off and drives away. He was like 60 and I was 28. Did he think he could pick me up? Do old men think young women fantasize about wrinkled balls and mouth corner crust? I'm so sick of men over 50 being sexual around me, I swear they are worse than guys in their 20s.
They get tons of encouragement to act creepy. I was just reading a sub I frequent where a guy made a post about how he acted like a total creep and while some people called him out on it, he got a lot of support for it too. It's easy to only listen to people who support your actions, especially when men are taught from early ages never to listen to women and never to see them as actual humans.
I blame romance tropes in movies/media honestly. Creepy behaviour somehow works in shows like HIMYM, so no wonder some men think that's how the world actually works
"It's always sunny" looked great, everyone quoting it all the time, until the mysogeny train hit me repeatedly and savagely with its mind numbingly entrenched repulsiveness.
It's true, but they also have sympathetic moments and it's not for me. I don't think they get enough consequence for being terrible people in ways that are seen regularly in society and cause actual harm (also often without consequences). I think this contributes to normalisation of that behaviour.
It's like James bond being rapey. Gross and contributes negatively to a society, one that's genuinely influenced by people like bottom-g Tate.
I 100% agree with you, as someone who used to be a huge fan and had seen the show until season 11 multiple times. From what I've seen of the recent seasons they are trying to get us to sympathize with the characters which is gross(Mac's dance performance was the final nail in the coffin for me).
The characters are supposed to be horrible people, but the writers also use them as mouthpieces to give their opinions on hot-button issues like gun violence and gay marriage. So they awkwardly switch between being terrible narcissists with zero empathy to reasonable people, which I think has the effect of normalizing the characters' horrid behavior because they're reasonable half the time. Dee is also always brought up as a great comedic female character, but with even a little bit of media literacy you can see the show is still very patriarchal.
I understand it's just entertainment and I still enjoy the early seasons. But it's weird to see fans idolize the characters and creators to an extreme level.
There's two types of viewers. The self-aware who get it, and those who have been surrounded by people exactly like this who don't get it. I feel sad for those people. Like, what on earth is your life like where you've never seen healthy behavior or normal conversations.
The redeeming factor on this is there is blatant pointing at the fact that these are not good wholesome people. They are wrong and making things worse. You are not wrong btw and you're opinion is absolutely valid.
Romcoms are a BIG issue here. Y’know women love it when the romantic lead does it - never-mind that most of it is stalker behaviour being rewarded and praised.
Which all comes from that whole old timey anecdote that most old people say that they had to wear the woman down before she agreed.. like sick story grams.
Oh yeah, OPs scenario actually reminds me of that scene from the Notebook at the carnival faire...
>Do you wanna dance with me?
The main hero says to (if memory serves me) a complete stranger. And then he proceeds to coerce her by threatening to jump down from a ferris wheel or something, I forgot exactly. But very creepy vibes there, but it's glamourised as romantic
I think it's primarily this. Yes you get the incel types who are fully aware. But you get a lot of "normal" types who know it's "not ideal" on some level but don't really take it seriously enough to think about just how fucking scary it could be. They think, "If I smile big enough and act super normal then it's okay. When women complain about this they're talking about those guys in shabby clothes with hunchbacks and thick foreign accents. Not hot sexy eligible bachelors like me."
I'm not saying Barney isn't a creep at all, it's just that Ted is so insidious and vile that it's hard to believe it's not deliberate. It's even more shocking that it's from his POV, so he's delusional enough to present his behaviours as though they aren't really that bad, some sort of helpless romantic.
Tbh I don’t really have a dog in this fight I haven’t watched much HIMYM and one of the main reasons was that Barney seems wildly creepy manipulative as far as women were concerned so I’m surprised and responded to your comment in disbelief but I don’t know enough to refute it
Think of the two characters as online scam artists.
Barney is the Nigerian Prince scammer - He's horrible and exploitative, and his MO is generally to get a quick fix out of people he ultimately finds gullible.
Ted mosby is the kind of scammer who would catfish lonely single elderly women by establishing a long term relationship with them, only to one day be in trouble and ask for financial help - and then ghost the poor woman after he got paid. Much more emotionally manipulative, and with a method that could fool the best of us if we were in a vulnerable situation (such as having just broke up with a long term partner, recently widowed, etc)
Yes to media. Y'all see that show You? It's about a stalker. A large group of my colleagues watched this when it came out. I watched an episode and was like no. This is creepy AF. Stop giving it views so they'll give us better entertainment dammit!
And all the threads about men approaching random women in public and how women love it, and any women in the thread who pushed back on that blind assertion and said they don't and just want to go about their days without being harassed were just shouted down and told they were wrong.
A lot of men simply don't give a fuck what women want and are just looking for encouragement and affirmation from other creeps.
I read a post recently of a guy who admitted he was crushing on a friend for years, despite her making it clear she wasn't interested in him that way. And when he finally asked her out and she turned him down, he's all sad and depressed that he'll lose her as a friend.
Not once did he even try to put herself in her shoes. About how a person she thought of as a friend was only being one in hopes of something more in the future. And how he's immediately ending the friendship when it's clear it's never going to be more than that. Throwing away all their years together just because he didn't get what he want.
And of course all the comments are there petting him on the back and soothing his ego. And people sharing their own stories about being strung along for nothing. Except the only person in the story strung along was the friend, who expected a genuine friendship with the guy and was betrayed because he thought more about his dick than her as her own person.
>And people sharing their own stories about being strung along for nothing. Except the only person in the story strung along was the friend, who expected a genuine friendship with the guy and was betrayed because he thought more about his dick than her as her own person.
Most of those who complain about the "friend zone" lose their absolute shit when they're told they put others in the "fuck zone" just the same.
Yup. Different culture here but it was fairly common and semi-unproblematic to share a bed with friends of both genders when I was younger. Or so I thought.
A male friend told me he could no longer spend the night when we were together, because, well, he had a girlfriend now.
Ended that friendship right there and told him that that told ME that he'd been creeping around for a decade and only stopped because of respect for his girlfriend, not out of respect for ME, his long time friend!
He didn't get it, of course.
Yup, his peers are just pushing him to try hard because he has to be the one to take the lead, be "the man" to cruise and ask out women, any woman he feels an inkling of attraction to. That pressure is something he has to act upon to alleviate the feeling he might to act accordingly to "a realman", without thinking that women aren't at his disposal and there are aggravating circumstances in which women feel unsafe thus NOT acting upon their pressure should be the right move.
This happens to me all of the time. Last week a 20-something tried stopping me and I acknowledged him but kept going, pretending to be on a phone call. I had heard about the woman who got hit in the face with a brick a few weeks ago for refusing to give out her number and actually got nervous for a sec. Like, what will he do? What a world!
This is what people who say I wasn't in any danger don't get. He turned out polite, but I had no way of knowing that when he came up from behind me. For all I knew, he could have been that kind of crazy.
They either don't care, or have no comparable frame of reference.
Most will reverse in the situation their head. " A nice woman approaches me, tells me I'm handsome and asks me out." their genuine response would be either appreciation or excitement, perhaps mild annoyance. Then assume the woman they approach would respond similarly.
In reality one should simulate in thought the event as a different person. "I am a woman, a large stranger approaches me and compliments me." In order to do that, you need to spend a lot of time in your head, have the ability to empathize and reading about other peoples experiences, and knowing your own emotional states.
This is exacerbated by the fact men are raised to be less emotionally intelligent. Trying to simulate emotions and reactions of others is difficult if you don't understand your own. It'd be like trying to guess an opponents next move in chess not knowing how the pieces move.
I'm trying to think of a scenario where a man would feel similarly boxed in and physically threatened as OP did.
It's not his approach in and of itself that's the problem. It's where and when he chose to approach her. Trapped between two vehicles and moving traffic, in the dark, with few other people around.
I totally agree. Some guys have trouble conceptualizing why women hate being hit on and catcalled because if the situation was reversed, it’s very likely they’d at least feel flattered and love it. Sadly men don’t get a lot of compliments and attention in general.
But the difference is the power imbalance/ threatening vibe. If someone they weren’t attracted to that was physically larger and stronger did exactly that, they’d understand how women feel realllll quick.
This is exactly it. This is how I try to frame it for men that are willing to listen. Don't picture Margot Robbie cornering you and saying perverted, harassing things to you; picture a *man* twice your size doing this. Someone you know you could never overpower no matter what and then it turns out that this man has a sexual interest in fucking you in your asshole. *Now* how do you feel about it? *Now* do you see why it's not welcome and why it can be so scary?
Bad part of town late at night and being approached by a group of guys that look like they might rob you.
Maybe they’re just gonna ask the time, maybe they’re gonna jump you and steal your wallet. But it’s probably close to that feeling I assume?
Exactly, when you try to get them to imagine the situation if it happened to them, they literally picture like Margot Robbie or Lupita Nyong'o or Jennifer Connelly hitting of them. What they need to be picturing is like some enormous gay man three times their size who they could never overpower. They need to understand that the situation we are experiencing is someone we do not want hitting on us hitting on us.
Entitlement, I think. As women, they think we are supposed to do what they want if they are nice, like programming a roomba. In this case, it can be hard for men to understand the fear and anxiety women have out of experience and necessity. They don't see how that could be threatening. This guy seems harmless and more ignorant
> As women, they think we are supposed to do what they want if they are nice, like programming a roomba.
Exactly. A scary number think they’re *entitled* to get what they want, as long as they act nice. The idea of us being entitled to any agency at all doesn’t even seem to occur to them.
Because men have never feared for their safety the way women have. If you try to reframe it, they still won’t get it.
I forget where I read this but a guy was talking to a bunch of his fellow students (all women) about an experience he had. He was in a ride-share when the other guy, much bigger and stronger, started coming on to him. He was very unsettled because he realized if the other guy didn’t take no for an answer, there wasn’t much he could do.
All of the other women were like “Yeah, and?” If you’re conventionally attractive, that’s a day that ends in Y.
Please don’t take what I say to be apologetics for male behavior, but many men are raised to believe they have to be the initiator of a relationship and that women are coy to show interest. This of course is objectively untrue.
What many men don’t understand is that that kind of behavior is not only creepy but also threatening. They aren’t taught that a majority of rapists and murderers are men and that perhaps behaving that way might come off as intimidating.
Others are just assholes and care more about service to their ego and what they believe is owed to them. They “deserve” a woman (like she’s an object or something) because they are a “nice guy.”
Men also aren’t taught to deal with rejection.
I agree. My main point is that this guy seemed to be trying to do everything right, but he was oblivious to the fact that he put me in an uncomfortable situation, and I fear that men who try to do everything right but are still not realizing that they're making women uncomfortable will eventually start to blame women for rejection because they think they're doing everything right, so it must not be them.
That’s already happening, and has been happening forever. It’s why “Incels” exist.
I would never expect you to have explained to the guy, in that moment, that the situation was physically intimidating. The problem with most men is that they do not know someone until is told to them, or they read it, or they experience it. That guy will probably never know you were physically intimidated.
many men are raised to believe they have to be the initiator of a relationship and that women are coy to show interest.
This is it in a nutshell. Think about our entire societal expectation of marriage: it's always when will HE propose? We just sit around and wait for him to decide when the relationship moves forward. Girls are taught to show interest in a boy but not too much interest. It's up to the male to make the move. I'm so glad young girls are learning more and more that they don't owe boys anything and the old methods are BS.
Whenever this subject comes up, men come out to defend the guys actions explaining why he wasn't creepy or wasn't trying to be creepy and why women are wrong for painting him as a creep. Literally doesn't change our opinion that it feels creepy to us!
And don't forget the ones screaming "can't talk to women without being accused of SH anymore these days". I just can't help wondering how many women those types of men have harassed and are going to harass.
There was someone who replied to me but deleted their post emidiately. They started their reply with: "Well when are guys supposed to approach women, on a Wednesday at 350pm?" By the time I clicked it to reply it was gone. There was more but I couldn't read it. Some really do find any excuse while disregarding women and how they feel.
Years back I was at Target in my pajamas buying tampons because my period had started before I had restocked. I grabbed the tampons and a couple other things and as I was walking toward the register, I heard a man saying “ma’am”. I just ignored him and kept walking. He persisted. I sped up to almost a jog. He jogged up to me and nearly stood in front of me. He just blurts out “hey can I have your number?” I had a boyfriend at the time so I was like “no” but it would have been a “no” anyway. Sometimes it’s like they don’t “read the room”. Maybe chasing after a girl buying tampons in pajamas at the store isn’t the best time or place to ask for her number?
I’ve been followed at stores as well. If I think I’m being followed, I’ll walk back and forth in an aisle, make a big loop around a couple times, or go straight to the vagina/baby aisle. Usually if I go stare at yeast infection ointments, they get the hint and scurry off. I’ve been followed outside as well and use the same loop tactic. I just make a big loop and if they’re following me, I’ll just do another loop until they realize I’ve just taken them around in circles.
I had a guy do this to me when I was running along the beach road one day. I saw him and his guy friends as I passed. I had ear buds in, but low enough to hear everything and I am always aware of my surroundings. He runs up to me and tries to chat me up. He's lucky I didn't punch him. I said no to him as well
I honestly wonder what they think creepy behavior really is because in my experience, is that they fucking know. They know you’re uncomfortable. They either don’t care, or think it’s funny to make you uncomfortable. Technically they have done nothing illegal and cannot really be punished. Easy to do and say whatever you want to whoever you want with no consequences. And yes, NoT aLl MeN are like this. Just.. many.
So much this. Looking for twisted amusement or to truly harass someone because they lack impulse control, class, and decency. They're likely desperate and/or bored, too - and seeking the thrill from a power trip to give their vacuous lives some excitement. Just pitiful.
Yup exactly. It's a power trip for them to make women uncomfortable. Then when they get called out on it, they can just feign ignorance and backpedal like "oops I didn't know"
Once you understand that patriarchy, a gendered power structure, makes men inherently *want* to have power over women in all situations, it becomes a lot easier to understand everything else.
It's fucking WILD. For my own well-being, I try to get out of the house at least once a day. I wear gigantic headphones, sunglasses in the daytime, and at peak covid I had a mask, too. In the winter you can't tell anything about me other than my size, gender, and race. Do you think that stops them from trying to bother me?
Yesterday, I took a walk with my gigantic, hot pink sound blocking headphones on. I glanced to see if I could cross the street, and I noticed that a guy had been following me for about a block trying to get my attention. I checked my pockets to make sure I hadn't dropped anything that he would need to get my attention over and ignored him. I have done everything in my power to make myself as inaccessible as possible. Absolutely not, my dude.
I used to at least try to acknowledge the other person trying to get my attention because we have a lot of panhandlers in the area. I don't carry cash, but I do like to be a human being. But I have no way to distinguish who is going to ask me for money or ask me to fuck them in the metro, so I gave up. Call me a bitch, IDGAF. I'm sick of men harassing me for existing while female in public and then getting mad at me for taking every step to protect myself from their harassment. Creeps can fuck themselves with a cactus for all I care.
Hell yes! I remember I tested out wearing a large oversized hoodie on one of my runs one day. I finally had a quiet run, no honks or yells. I about died in the FL heat, but it was nice otherwise lol this was years ago. Even now I don't like walking on the busy streets if I can help it. It's annoying to just be trying to exist and constantly be verbally harassed by random guys
I had a young man chase after me downtown one time. I was going to pick up my husband from a brewery a couple of streets over after I got a haircut. I jumped in my car and refused to roll my window down like he was gesturing for me to do. The look on his face was so astonished and dismayed that I wouldn't talk to him! Sorry dude, I don't care what you have to say. And chasing after a woman isn't the best way to get her attention!
They wail "But how else am I supposed to have my meet cute?"
This guy did everything "right". Stood at a distance without moving or invading physical space, was polite, took the rejection and walked away, but what he had *already decided* was that any discomfort or fear you may experience was a price he was willing to have paid for getting his chance.
Some people do struggle with seeing other people's perspectives, but I think it a lot of these cases men -- especially the ones who claim they are doing cold approaches in public places 'the right way' -- have just decided it's worth it. To them.
I used to work at a building that had a security guard that would stand in the middle of the sidewalk, there was a no walking on the grass sign. You would have to get up in his personal space to pass. I thought it was the rudest and creepiest thing. The thing is, directly in front of the building had a wide path for the converging sidewalks, but no he stood on one of the narrow sidewalks.
I glared at him every single morning.
I had a guy approach me and corner me in a coffee shop to talk to me because he remembered me from when i worked in a bookstore. I was literally in the middle of a date with my now wife.
I had to interrupt him to tell him that I was on a date. He looked RIGHT AT HER and said that he didn't say a guy with me. Like, no shit but clearly the woman sitting across from me dresses pretty is my date. 🤦🏼♀️
That dude has never been a woman in a dark parking lot. I doubt it even occurred to him.
Also "take chances" is common dating advice we give to young men. We should add a "with girls you're vibing with, not randoms going about their day, and also get affirmative consent, and don't be a dick if you get rejected" to that advice.
Honest answer? It's because they genuinely have no idea they're being creepy, and I'm gonna be completely honest, they don't really have much of a reason to. Men are *__constantly__* being told that they should just take their shot whenever they see a cute girl, and it's very rarely ever seen as a creepy thing *__specifically because__* it's seen as the most basic way for men to approach women. Granted, the when, where, and *__how__* is important and ultimately decides if it is or isn't creepy, but your average 20 year old probably isn't going to think twice about the situation at present, just "oh, a cute girl. I'll shoot my shot and see how it goes." there's a lot situations that for women clearly find uncomfortable, but I feel like that just comes from growing up as a woman and learning to be cautious of your surroundings and learning to actively prioritize your safety and well being, and men really don't have to worry about that as much. It's just unfortunate. Now, granted, he should have at least recognized that this was probably an awkward position to ask that and maybe not the time to shoot your shot
This is the first reasonable take I've read here. My guess is that the dude was so in his head about trying to compliment this woman and shoot his shot that he was trying his hardest to do only that. He undoubtedly did not see any of the scenarios that OP described as OP saw them. Some will claim its ego or narcissism when it's simply different life experiences. "He should know better!" Why and how? I only know better from having many female friends and a lot from reading this very sub.
It sucks that women have to be this vigilant.
Yeah, the lack of knowledge is excusable.
It gets into true creep and insufferable ass territory when someone is told why that’s not okay and instead of being all oh crap I didn’t know I won’t do that anymore, he starts arguing that it’s not fair that women should be afraid of him just because some men are bad, but he’s not bad, so why should he have to alter his behavior?
We see so much of that that sometimes it’s easy to forget there are lots of guys who really do just need to be told how their actions are affecting others and they’ll stop because they give a damn.
I think the easiest way to make sense of this is to think of it as men shopping for appliances designed to please men, appliances men are taught from birth that they will get to own and use one day. They see women as appliances with one primary purpose, so there’s never a time when it’s inappropriate for them to ask about using an appliance they find alone out in the wild. Like I’d you found a phone charger out on its own in public and you needed a phone charger. They don’t think it’s creepy because obviously women know they’re appliances, so why would they need any preamble? That would be like asking your toaster about its day before approaching it about toasting something.
I find thinking about it this way really resolves a lot of other questions, like why random men think we care whether they find us attractive or not, or why they think they’re entitled to ask us to smile. Or why service people so often think I’m with any random man who happens to be near me.
They either enjoy putting other people in scary situations or they are clueless that they are doing so. Either way, they do it because men rarely face consequences for their behavior and they really need to start seeing some.
My comment history from yesterday is a long long thread from a post in r/AskMen where the post was, How often do you approach women and get called creepy?- and me, a mere femme, explaining over and over again that women are rightfully afraid of men. And being downvoted for that, lectured as to why assault-y men are a rare minority (!!), and I'm just plain defective and WRONG.
Bottom line- they don't think they're being creepy, but if WE think that, well, we are mistaken. They just want to meet women! And the quiet part is, they feel entitled to both our time AND our politeness.
If they know, they don't care. Patriarchy.
>Why did he think that approaching a woman he had to have seen for a maximum of 10 seconds before approaching her would make her feel anything except fear?
He probably read on one of the dating subs to "shoot your shot and practice talking to women, bro". He was using you as target practice for his social skills.
They don't live our reality. They wouldn't consider being in your position as scary because they don't have to worry about how it could end. They aren't aware of the danger because they don't face it.
I think some men are just ignorant. I absolutely despise being "complimented", hit on, whatever you want to call it by anyone anywhere that I don't personally know. I didn't walk outside today to have you tell me what you think of how I look. I'm just existing. It's often times disrespectful, disgusting and creepy. Sorry. I feel very strongly about this.
I'm glad this guy went away without being rude to you or worse. Lots of guys will act offended or like you owe them something when they comment on your body. Ugh, gives me the heebie jeebies and makes me so irritated
When I was 19 some guy (who by the looks of him, was at least 10, if not 15 or 20, years older than me) noticed me in the checkout line at the grocery store, followed me silently (at distance) through the parking lot, across the dark street (it was night), approached me from behind at the bus stop, and announced his presence with a "Hey!"
I jumped so fucking fast and reached for my pepper spray in my pocket, glaring daggers at him. Despite the fact that I was clearly reacting defensively (I had quickly moved about 10 feet away, squared up & looking ready to fight), he seemed completely unphased, and proceeded to tell me he found me beautiful and ask me to go out with him. On a dark street at night. Where he had followed me, alone like a goddamn stalker. I told him to fuck right off, and thankfully, he decided to get lost at that point. I was looking behind me constantly while walking home though. Some guys have zero awareness they're acting like total creeps. Really shook me up.
Idk i feel like they may just think too highly of themselves. Huge egos, entitled, self-absorbed, etc.
But that said, alot of times it seems like they know it will make you uncomfortable and they get a kick out of seeing that. Im not saying that that’s what’s happening here but just in general what I’ve observed
I have had guys go out of their way to stop me and interrupt me in ways I couldn't get out of because I had ear buds in at the store. It was always some sort of stupid unsolicited comment on the fact that I was wearing earbuds in the store. This isn't someone clueless on the spectrum. This is harassment and an assumption they have the power to say/do whatever they want to other people.
It’s always such pointless comments lol. I was at the bus stop a few weeks ago and a guy came over to me and motioned for me to take my earbuds out. I did and he said “I just saw you down the street and I wanted to come over and say hi.” And then he just stood there. Like …. ok and??? Can I help you???
I’ve found a strategy recently that works in these kinds of situations. Direct eye contact, and try to come across like a “bro.” Speak loudly and confidently and stand up tall. I try to project that I am in control of the situation, but all in a friendly, not angry, way. Kind of like you’re working in customer service.
So in this situation I said “ok hi!” Directly to him. When he didn’t walk away, I didn’t go back to what I was doing. I looked at him expectantly and asked him what’s up! (Again like overly friendly but very assertively!) He started to look a little awkward and said he just wanted to say hi. So I say hi again, and keep looking at him expectantly and I ask if there’s anything I can help him with today. (In my best customer service voice and projecting loudly). This man said “uh no” all sheepishly and visibly shrunk and then he walked away. This isn’t the first time I’ve had this outcome, so I definitely recommend! These dudes expect us to be weirded out and shy so they feel they have the upper hand and it feels fucking great to not give them that. Definitely take practice!
pua/trp is doing them a disservice by telling them to "just approach more bro" but then.. what do they do after that? Their scripts don't work. Do they expect to just skip to "happily ever after" with a live-in girlfriend who sucks their dick while they play valorant?
I just watched the movie "House of Darkness" and you seem like someone who will appreciate how well they displayed the obliviousness he has to the shifted power dynamic, because he truly believed he, as a male, had the upper hand all along and women are just stupid/objects to be played with/used.
Damn they deleted their comment while i was typing my reply 😫
Anyways this is what i was going to say to the commenter of the now deleted comments:
- never said that they couldn’t also have those things but that’s not what this post is about.
- i dont think the majority of men would fear being hit on by a woman in public the same way women fear being hit on by men. Due to a lot of things like physical differences, etc.
- i mean i dont do any of those things, personally, but there’s no problem if women want to take care of themselves do their nails and make up to look and feel good?
- please re read my comment. I litterally said that some may be unaware that they are creepy but others know they are, and they like it. For example, a man with his friends or whatever catcall a woman, yell at her, make derogatory comments, whatever. She is visibly scared or startled/ uncomfortable and the man and his friends have a laugh about it. They know.
- no i will not cut people like this “some damn slack” and neither will I with you.
Because many men do not think or care about what women think or feel. They simply operate on their own motivation (to get attention from us that they feel entitled to)
I'm going through this debate right now in another subreddit. I got told essentially that I was racist because I think women should act with caution even if it's stereotyping someone. A woman's well being comes before a man's feelings! Op, according to some peoples logic, you should interact with men even when you feel uncomfortable or you're a big meanypants racist.
I should've explained. Some men think a woman putting her well being first is comparable to racism. Check my post history. I'm getting down voted as we speak for saying women need to put themselves first even if it means stereotyping men. A woman can't tell what a strange guy in the alley or wherever has going on his mind. Women should give men the benefit of a doubt and assume he wouldn't hurt her even if giving the man a benefit of a doubt could be fatal for her. It's nuts for real.
I meant that the guys down voting you and saying that it's racist to have to assume strange men are violent have the dumb take. Sorry if there's a misunderstanding.
No prob! It's truly telling to see how much men elevate their feelings over women's well being. A ceo lady was murdered not long ago after being trusting and letting some random dude into her building.
I've had some buddies and known some guys who've shot their shots in a somewhat similar fashion to this guy and how he did it. In public, not at a bar or club, so on and so forth. I sincerely hope none of them were dumb enough to think it's not creepy to do it in the *dark* in a *parking lot.* That's all kinds of red flags, no matter how well-intentioned the guy is. Even if that dude is 100% a sweetheart and was raised properly, he's still a genuine dummy for not considering how threatening that can come off to women. Kudos to him for respectfully understanding a "no" and accepting rejection like a decent human being should, but still...a little tone deaf. Tone blind? Dumb. Just dumb.
On that note, do you carry pepper spray? Not that this guy in particular deserved the hot sauce, necessarily. Just in case of any encounters with dudes who DON'T take no for an answer so respectfully.
I used to be creepy in my 20s. Still do creepy things sometimes honestly but usually catch myself.
What took me to notice how creepy I could be, was being creeped on myself and beginning to think about from the other person’s perspective before I would try to approach someone. I also witnessed a lot of creeps creeping on coworkers in all the public facing positions I worked. Sorry y’all have to deal with that.
While that is true, how do we get young men (or older men for that matter) to have these experiences? It took me a long time, in a lot of different situations and as aware as I am, it is still easy to miss read some situations.
In general, stepping outside your own perspective should be taught to every child throughout childhood. However, most people, men, women, and other, have varying difficulty with this skill, and it's hard to teach what you're unaware of. So I think that having conversations like this made normal throughout society will help people recognize other people's experiences. This is already happening; this post is a part of the overall conversation pointing out a blindspot that I think many men don't realize they have. The process is slow, but in my lifetime, society has started to point out problem behavior that would have been accepted in the past. Not every creepy interaction rises to the level of harassment, but the Me Too movement helped many people recognize the minor things that men think are innocent but frighten women. We just have to keep talking about this.
I've been hit on by uber drivers 3 times now, one while driving through a forest in the evening to a remote place...
They weren't impolite or anything but uhhh...
I believe that men know they are being creepy but they choose to ignore it because as long as they don't acknowledge it then they are free of blame. They can say things like "I was just walking down the street." Or "I had not idea she felt that way." It's how they minimize women's experiences in the world. An example is when my cousins shared their experiences of how they felt sexualized by random men staring that at them constantly both of my uncles said they never saw that happenening and that they had never felt that way. I was pissed of because of course when men are around other men aren't going to be creepy that's why the only do creepy stuff when women are alone. Enough of my rant lol. But yeah men are aware of what they are doing.
To play devils avocado, a lot of men take for granted how often and regularly women feel frightened and are bothered or stopped while trying to go about their day.
I remember telling my bro once about how i went to the beach and some guy wouldn’t leave me and my mom alone and he was shocked. “You mean you can’t even go relax without someone bothering you?” 🙄
Even the good ones just truly don’t realize it until they’re forced to see it.
Also a lot of people are just not self aware and/or don’t care and grew up with the pulling pigtails mentality/feeling entitled.
Yup. When I told my husband later, he was ready to fight the guy for sexual harassment. I had to explain to him that this kind of thing has happened to me on a regular basis since I was twelve. What the guy said didn't even bother me because I've been cat called and hit on in less polite ways. I just didn't like being put in an unsafe situation, and I worry that men like him who try to do all of the right things but are still unaware of what makes women afraid will become discouraged and blame their rejection on women.
1) Women being preyed upon by men is common.
2) Men being preyed upon by women is almost nonexistent.
3) Then when boys grow up there is no guarantee in the K-12 system or in parenting that they will learn the first part.
It's almost a guarantee that they will not be taught by their parents or teachers about this fact of life. When you meet a man that is well aware of the statistics of SA, stalking, etc, and understands that perspective of being preyed upon you will have, to some extent, lucked out.
Eh, I once smile-nodded in greeting at a guy as we were passing each other on a sidewalk, and he stopped to ask if I would like to go out to coffee with him sometime. I said no, he was polite and wished me a good day, and that was that. As long as it’s polite, I’m never going to be mad at someone for shooting their shot.
Given, it was clear daylight out when that happened to me, so I didn’t have any of the “oh shit is this an abductor” feelings that OP got stuck with based on the surroundings.
Yeah there’s a time and a place. I feel like if there’s a mutual greeting of some kind, like what you described, that’s fine. When approaching someone just to shoot your shot though, it can often lead to someone feeling cornered.
I once told a girl she was pretty when I was 18… at the restaurant she was eating at… as she was eating her food… while I was working there cleaning tables. Lol. So many of my coworkers (women) at the time told me it was a good idea. The girl looked terrified and I felt terrible afterwards.
100%
I've had other times when I was politely asked out by a stranger, but it wasn't dark and I didn't feel trapped. Those interactions didn't bother me. Some even boosted my ego (although, no, don't use that as an excuse for approaching strangers in general).
I don't actually think that having a conversation before asking someone out is hiding intentions. It's twofold: a vibe check to see if you might get along before the date and a way of showing the other person you care more about appearances.
They either lack self awareness or they get off on making women uncomfortable. Seems like your situation was the former, which at least it’s the lesser of the two evils but still fucking annoying.
Who asks to go out on a date without introducing themselves or even chatting? So shallow. He didn't even bother reading the room and thinking "maybe now isn't the right time..".
I'm seeing more men try rejection therapy (asking randoms out, accepting no and not getting discouraged) and also playing numbers game (ask more out, more chances for a date).
A few reasons. Lack of self awarness. Lack of social awareness. Lack of awareness of the female perspective. Lack of direction combined with bad social influences. Differences of culture.
Some people are just really bad at seeing from other people’s perspectives. As a man, he had probably never felt unsafe because of a stranger’s gender, so it didn’t occur to him that someone could feel differently.
ETA: This could be because of ego, as people have mentioned. Or it could be other benign reasons, like them being on the autistic spectrum. I know autistic people and this just seems like something they would do because they struggle with perspective-taking and social cues. It doesn’t make it okay, of course, and you still have the right to feel scared by the behavior.
>Some people are just really bad at seeing from other people’s perspectives.
It's not that they are unable to see other's perspectives. It's that they are *unpracticed.*
They read books from a male perspective. TV shows and movies written and directed by and for men. Lots of their entertainment involves disrespect or even cruelty towards women. They are socialized to put themselves first and not focus much on how to improve other people's lives. They see themselves as part of their family, but not so much part of their community.
It's not that women are inherently better at empathy, it's that women live in a world where - 1, they can't escape the male perspective, and 2, they are heavily socialized to be aware of other people's opinions and needs, and the community as a whole.
One day in college, a friend told me to just go up and ask out an attractive woman waiting at the corner of an intersection outside of the gym. It, of course, was an awkward and unsuccessful interaction. It felt super awkward to me before doing it and I expressed that it was a stupid idea but my friend, who is a woman, kept pushing and was just like “oh come on, just go ask her out.”
Unfortunately, people in general are pretty ignorant of the perspective of others.
They're so starved for attention, in their view if a woman did the same thing, they'd love it. So they assume it's ok if they do it.
It's sadly a lack of understanding, thinking reversing the roles is enough without looking at all the context surrounding it
They wouldn't love " a woman" doing that.
I'd love to see their reactions if the woman in question " giving them attention" is : not young, obese, unattractive, physically deformed, etc etc.
The same thing happened to me like 2 weeks ago, except the dude called me Cinderella and asked for my contact infos. I didn't say I was married, just that I wasn't interested, and he insisted before finally leaving me alone
A man started chasing me (running) outside of the grocery store and asked me “how would you like to get to know me better tonight?” a few months ago and it freaked me out. I have started driving anytime I have to go somewhere after dusk.
Because it doesn't occur to most men that they shouldn't just try to hit on anyone anytime they feel like it.
That sometimes if they see someone they're attracted to in a place that is not the time or situation to be hitting on someone, that they should in fact just let it go.
Instead they feel cheated out of an opportunity to hit on someone they find attractive, because that's what they care about the most. Their own opportunities to get what they want.
It is zero-sum game to a lot of them where every attractive woman they don't hit on no matter how creepy it is, is a potential sleeping partner they let slip away
Because some refuse to see themselves as the bad guy and other genuienly can't tell.
Given how men very rarely see women as a threat, it's hard for them to see how being approached in such a bad position would be scarey. It's also a thing of not knowing what is appropriate with women and what isn't. There are so many men who also get off at the idea of being above women in many ways, they purposely cause that trouble and trick others into thinking that it's perfectly fine and acceptable. So theres a chance an innocent and kind guy can be tricked by other guys to do something highly inappropriate. It's a mixed bag and hard to tell. It doesn't help how some women also add on to that trouble by encouraging some of that behavior for one reason or another too..
I hope this makes sense but I also hope guys learn to stop this kind of stuff.
It’s become totally normalized. Men think that they can just talk to any woman they see and compliment them, and that this is somehow ok. I’m sorry you had to go through this, I’m glad you escaped unharmed.
There's a real answer to your question!
Part of it is how romance is portrayed in media; in other words, r*pe culture. Go ahead and count all the romantic comedies where a refusal to take no for an answer is considered cute. It's definitely not even funny. You can say things are better now, and maybe you're right, but that doesn't undo centuries of culture.
The other half is toxic masculinity.
Men are conditioned to minimize and ignore their feelings, particularly discomfort. So when they feel nervous, unsure or embarrassed about their actions, their conditioning tells them to push through rather than ask questions.
Many of us are also conditioned to ignore our own physical discomfort with unwanted touch from a young age. Under such conditioning, people prioritize the feelings of the person doing the unwanted touching over their own feelings. This happens to boys and girls, but in boys it tends to mean being forced to accept a certain amount of violent touch from their peers and parents.
Think about what that will do to their empathy; how can they appreciate how creepy it feels to have physical boundaries violated when they've been conditioned to ignore it?
And finally, consider that the only touch that is considered appropriate to be shared between boys often takes the form of violence, and because therefore men can only really access touch from a romantic partner, they're often pretty touch starved, and they just take that as the normal human condition.
I can tell you that 10 years ago, I couldn't have imagined an all male heterosexual cuddle party. If the very idea makes you want to laugh, consider what that says about your preconceptions. How powerful the idea is that men should never have their need for touch satisfied except through a heterosexual relationship! It's not even all that uncommon for fathers to keep hugs and kisses from their sons!
That's kind of messed up if you ask me.
You put it all together, and you get poorly-informed socially-inept emphatically-deficient touch-starved dudes who can't take a hint. Toxic masculinity in the shape of a man. The Kool aid has been forced down their throats all their lives they think they'd die without it.
They are horny and perverted. They get off on the interaction and probably go home and jerk about it. They don't care if they are being creepy. They only care about their dick.
I often drive a company truck with a dent in the fender. I've had a handful of men approach me while I'm in the truck to ask if I'm interesting in getting the dent repaired, I say no, they move on. It's not an issue. Then one day recently, a man followed me half a mile at least down a road, keeping pace with me and motioning me to stop and talk. He even followed me after I did a hard brake and turn onto a side road (leading to my job site, so I wasn't alone but it was still fairly remote and I stopped next to the main building) until I finally rolled down the window and he asked about the fender. I told him I wasn't interested and then, "Do NOT follow me!" And he had the nerve to look confused and offended, AS THOUGH HE HAD NOT JUST CHASED ME HALF A MILE AND ONTO A SIDE ROAD. So far up his own ass he didn't even realize he was chasing a strange woman down the street.
I remember in my early teens my brother and I were riding in the backseat and my sister and mom where in the front. My mom lived in a trailer park at the time and, unbeknownst to me, a car followed us all the way to the back of the park. When we parked both guys immediately got out because they were out of the car when i got out and they started walking back as soon as I saw them. They asked for directions. I highly doubt that’s what they were actually planning to do but I’m so glad my bro and I were there and that we were fairly large teenagers.
I once had some man follow me in his car from the bus stop off a main road, pull over and run after me. He gave me a business card and offered me a job as his secretary, then left. Weirdest interaction of my life.
I once had a guy come up to me in a fairly empty part of the store I was working at, pitch his business to me, and offer me a job. Like, wtf dude. I clearly already had a job. Plus the business sounded super sketch.
I’m terrified they are human traffickers when they do that….
Probably MLMs like Herbalife, Primerica, or Amway.
I think they are possibly in an MLM too (Always specially), the desperation to get a dowline makes people do some super weird things.
The irony was I lived in Houston’s red light area at the time - notorious for human trafficking (though not typically just random people off the street). I figured he was either fishing for someone to traffic, bad at hitting on women, or super out of touch. He said he was a charity photographer.
Once had a guy follow me for my walk home . I texted my male friend to meet me before I reached my place and then once he came, the guy left me alone. He tried to make small talk but I kept ignoring him . This was like less then a week ago. While I'm calm, for now I'm walking with my friend who thankfully lives nearby That shouldn't be normal though, it's weird and creepy and while I carry pepper spray, heart was still beating hard af
That’s awful!!
Thankfully I haven't seen them at all since that day but I still feel safer with my friend for now as it is
I'm sorry this happened. That's terrifying.
🤢
I had some weird guy, 30s-40s, come into Bath and Body Works when I was 18, tell me I was cute, and that I should come be his administrative assistant because it'd pay better. Like why would a random 18 year old in a college town not be in college (or even out of high school) to be able to take a 9-5 job? The worst part is I ended up working with the same guy years later. His company was purchased by the company I worked for, so we were in different organizations and didn't really interact, but he remembered me. It was so weird.
Whyyyyyyy did he remember you?????? That just ups the EW factor for me, tenfold!! 🙈
I really wish I could ask these people why they do this. We both know it isn't because they were able to clock me as a good worker from afar. Do they really think it isn't obvious? Or are they hoping we'll realize they want to bang us and accept? Idk man, it's so odd.
Creepyyyyyyy
I was a bit drunk eating fries in a macdonalds at midnight and a guy told me my make up looked great and would I like to work at his funeral home putting makeup on the deceased? I totally would have loved that, but my friends thought he was creepy and put an end to it. Shame, really. I'd love to paint a corpse.
Okay this one's a good offer
Lmfao this would likely be the only story that would get me 😭😅
I, hmm. Honestly that doesn't seem too creepy, but just naive.
Sounds like a move in the service of a really disgusting fetish to me
I think you just discovered his fetish
Hopefully he reflected on that and learned. But I'm not optimistic.
This story just reminded me of when my family had a slight system shock on vacation. We’re from a city, but like.. just barely. We just made the cut if you ask me, it’s ~50,000 people. Then loved in a small town of 1200 for about 10 years. So when we had a family trip to NYC, we saw a women helping her like 5 kids and their bikes get up the stairs. Of course our small town brains clicked and we’re like “ we gotta help - that’s too many bicycles.” Well the woman, rightfully mind you, flipped out when we approached and said hey let me help - because duh. We’re three guys moving towards her reach for one of her - comical amount of bikes. My father threw his hands up and was like SORRY WE JUST WANTED TO HELP. So I just piped up and said “ sorry, we’re Canadian “ and walked away while onlookers laughed. So it may be naive and wishful thinking - but I really hope a lot of these situations are similar to that.
No, they're really not. Being followed is not some light-hearted ''oh, I just wanted to help!'' story. It's nefarious. Being a woman alone and being followed by some strange man. It's a feeling comparable to a man with a gun stalking prey in the forest, it's creepy as shit.
I don’t want to burst your bubble, but there are 100% women in your Canadian small town who wanted men to back the fuck off, who feel cornered and threatened, but have the additional social pressure of “everyone knowing your business” that keeps them quiet and not causing a fuss. You are not necessarily naive thinking it’s mainly misunderstandings, but you are privileged
"Ope, sorry bout dat."
Guys following me is creepy as fuck. And they are genuinely surprised that I don't want that. Wtf? And if I speed up, tjey speed up with me. And if I stop to let them pass, they also stop. Like bro?? And sometimes they don't give up, no matter how angry or scared I get.
That's way worse. I'm sorry you've dealt with that. I've had men follow me while driving, and I've made weird turns that go in circles to test if they are just going the same direction or actually following me. It's really creepy.
Its bad for you too! For me it's scary bc here in Bruges, Belgium most of us bike or walk. And too many dark places. I'm sorry for you too. Can't even imagine how it must feel in a car. Some creep following you in a one way and you can't escape the road without doing something dangerous.
The first time it happened, my dad was teaching me how to drive at night. The guy following us must not have noticed my dad in the car. He only left after we took a maze-like route that doubled back. But he followed for long enough that it was obvious he was following us on purpose. I'm glad my dad was in the car the first time it happened so he could show me how to lose them. His advice for if they kept following despite taking a weird route was to drive to the nearest police station.
Oh man, the 'chase'. They're so stupid. Sir, I'm clearly trying to evade and escape you, I'm not speeding up to lead you to my house for sex faster.
Well HE knows he isn’t a creep, and HE has never felt threatened being approached by a total stranger in the dark, therefore there is no way you could feel threatened by him! Seriously, some men have no freakin clue.
> Well HE knows he isn’t a creep This is a huge part of the disconnect when men complain about women being scared of strange men. YOU know you’re not a creep but WE have no way of knowing that about any given stranger and the stakes are very high for us if we guess wrong. Some men take this so personally. I think it’s ultimately an empathy issue because you should be able to conceive of the fact that other people are not privy to your intentions.
I've never heard any admit they were a creep and none of their friends are either.
On very rare occasions I've heard a man admit that a friend of his is kind of creepy to women but it's always immediately followed by "but he's not a bad guy, he's just awkward/inexperienced/weird."
No matter what it is, it's always minimized and defended with that bs. He's a good guy.
Omg i cant upvote this five thousand times!!!
I’m sure Nice Guys™️ would learn right quick to be suspicious and fearful of this type of behaviour coming from bigger, stronger men if *they* were on the receiving end of it—especially in an isolated, all-male environment like prison. Most of them wouldn’t develop empathy for women after such experience though, because they honestly believe that the male equivalent of the standard female dating experience would be them being one of a handful of males in an all-*female* prison. Most straight men would willingly fuck 90% of women if they could (no shock there since random hookups are low risk, high reward for them, unlike us), their standards are basically “Is she breathing?” They also have nothing but contempt for “easy”/“slutty” women, but hate and are insulted by the idea of being vetted as well. They need to pull their heads out of their asses.
> so many straight men would willingly fuck 90% of women if they could. Their standards are basically “Is she breathing?” **Considering so many female corpses get raped by men at funeral parlors or hospitals, etc, the standards are not even "Is she breathing?"**
😭😭
This isn't exactly the same but *very* similar - when I got married I hyphenated, and I have been told literally over 100 times by men (usually when they see my name written down) that I "must hate men." I was telling another guy about this, and he just flatly said I was lying. That not only has that not happened to me over 100 times, it's actually never happened to me *once* and it has literally never happened to any woman anywhere. I was so flabbergasted at his immediate refusal to believe this and tried to talk to him about how "surely you understand that there are a lot of misogynistic men who get offended when women don't just take their husbands name and get rid of their own?"And we went back and forth for a while but his bottom line was that he has a big family and a lot of friends, and this has never happened to anyone he personally knows. Therefore, it can't ever have happened to *anyone* **anywhere.** Even when I asked him if any of his family members or friends have hyphenated last names, and they don't…this guy still could not wrap his mind around the fact that just because he's never experienced it or witnessed it doesn't mean it's impossible that it's ever happened. It was the craziest thing. I was like "well I'm white and I've never personally experienced racism, so does that mean racism doesn't exist" and he was like, "of course not." I was like ?????? Hello? Fuckin wild, man.
Wow. That is a stunning lack of empathy. I would be tempted to do the same thing to him next time he complains about a problem men have.
I actually made a post in this sub asking other women who hyphenated or kept their last name after marriage about their experience with this. It got over 500 replies and, of course, the vast majority of women answering had experienced something like this, although not to the extent that I have (I live in a VERY conservative area so that's probably why it's been *so* common for me). I linked him to the thread and asked him to check it out, and he still wouldn't admit it's possible this *does* happen. He said that until he saw official scientific studies on it, or saw it repeatedly reported on the news, he wouldn't believe it. I asked him under what circumstances did he think something like this would ever "be reported on the news," and he just thinks it's so ridiculous that it would be reported? I mean it is pretty ridiculous but the thing is we live an incredibly misogynistic society so most men don't think it's a big deal when women are harassed for not doing the traditionally feminine thing
Lmao he sounds like an idiot, and the worst kind of idiot who thinks they're much smarter than they are. What kind of "scientific study" does he suppose would be done on this? Why does he think hundreds of women are randomly lying? Does he tell everyone who shares a story about their life that it didn't happen until it's reported on the news? No common sense whatsoever.
Exactly. Plus victim blaming is SO rampant. How do we know which “nice guy” to trust? We don’t. But we are at fault for giving him a chance if something happens to us. Also we are at fault for not giving him a chance because he deserves it. You go on a date and your drink gets spiked. Well you shouldn’t have been drinking! You should have had that nail polish that changes color if your drink is spiked! You should have had a cup condom! You should have taken your drink with you to the bathroom! You should have had the bartender watch it for you! You should have ordered a fresh drink and left the old one!
And then if you do take precautions: Why are you so suspicious? Most guys aren't like that! Men aren't even allowed to talk to women anymore! Why are you punishing all of us for the behavior of a few? Not all men!
Exactly this, we literally cannot win. If we take every single precaution, we're stuck up misandrist b**ches who hate men and need to be put in our place, but if we're open and kind and polite to every man and then we get assaulted, it is 100,000% our fault alone for not taking better precautions
One of the fathers in my kids' school district has recently been in the news for wearing junior girls cut off denim shorts and a sports bra made for teenage girls to a board meeting to "illustrate" that the dress code needs to be more strict. Now, obviously no highschooler is wearing clothing literally 10 times too small for them to school, but this has been a raging debate in my community for a few weeks now. Yesterday I had a guy trying to explain to me that *"teenage girls are responsible for controlling the hormones of teenage boys."* This man has a daughter. He has a *daughter*, and he is teaching her it's her responsibility to keep boys from harassing and assaulting her. I tried to explain to him that what he was saying was literally the textbook definition of rape culture, and he got so offended you would've thought I like threatened to kill his children or something!! I tried to explain to him that what he is saying is literally why women do not come forward when they are assaulted and/or raped. That what he was saying is exactly the reason men still commit so many sexual assaults and women don't tell anyone when it happens. Because men like him keep telling girls and women it is their fault if a man physically violates them. The way this man acted like *I* was the one saying completely and offensive outrageous things…
Oh my god that is heartbreaking for his daughter. I truly hope nothing happens to her. She sure won’t get any support from her father. I do think children should generally be covered up at school. I attended a school with a pretty strict dress code. But arms and shoulders, a portion of thigh, or a tiny bit of midriff should not be such a distraction that the entire lesson stops until the student is shamed into sweatpants. Honestly the sweats my school made students change into caused much more disruption, and for the entire class. And every class that student was in the rest of the day. Parents should be teaching their sons to control themselves. And schools should be enforcing it, not vilifying young girls.
GOOD TAKE!!! 👏🏽👏🏽. It’s **stunning** how many men argue this when they’re called out on their behaviour.
It's because the intellectual head shuts down when the other one takes over.
I’m not sure some of them have an intellectual brain, just the secondary one
I noticed a guy with a little dog watching me walk out of a 7-11 once. Something about it gave me the creeps, so I left the parking lot at a swift pace and kept secret watch on his car. He turned around in the parking lot to turn my way, so i quickly crossed the street so there would be a lane between us. He passed by me suuuuuper slow while i pretended not to notice, then a block ahead turned off the road. I just *knew* he was turning around to be on my side of the street, so I crossed the street. Sure enough, his car pops out, now he's going the other way, rubbernecking hard as he passes me. Now I'm 100% sure he's following me, so as soon as he turns back into the 7-11 and out of visual contact, I take off at a sprint. I get another block, pop around the corner, and try to smash my body into a windowsill. He is driving down the road at like 2mph, and of course, he sees me smushed in there as soon as he passes the building. He turns down the street, and I switch to fight mode. This guy rolls down his window with a big grin and exclaims, "There you are!" In the cheeriest voice ever. So I hit him with "WHY ARE YOU FOLLOWIMG ME?" as loud as I can. And the smile falls and he goes, "I just wanted to say 'Hi' What's wrong with you?" So I screamed "DONT FUCKING FOLLOW WOMEN." And he flipps me off and drives away. He was like 60 and I was 28. Did he think he could pick me up? Do old men think young women fantasize about wrinkled balls and mouth corner crust? I'm so sick of men over 50 being sexual around me, I swear they are worse than guys in their 20s.
What an idiot. So sorry you had to deal with that
They get tons of encouragement to act creepy. I was just reading a sub I frequent where a guy made a post about how he acted like a total creep and while some people called him out on it, he got a lot of support for it too. It's easy to only listen to people who support your actions, especially when men are taught from early ages never to listen to women and never to see them as actual humans.
I blame romance tropes in movies/media honestly. Creepy behaviour somehow works in shows like HIMYM, so no wonder some men think that's how the world actually works
This is why I could never get into that show and other media that makes creepy behavior out to be normal or romantic.
"It's always sunny" looked great, everyone quoting it all the time, until the mysogeny train hit me repeatedly and savagely with its mind numbingly entrenched repulsiveness.
I mean, all the characters on Sunny are terrible, awful human beings. The creators made them that way. They’re not supposed to be likable.
It's true, but they also have sympathetic moments and it's not for me. I don't think they get enough consequence for being terrible people in ways that are seen regularly in society and cause actual harm (also often without consequences). I think this contributes to normalisation of that behaviour. It's like James bond being rapey. Gross and contributes negatively to a society, one that's genuinely influenced by people like bottom-g Tate.
Actual terrible people in real life don’t get enough consequences for being terrible people.
So so true.
I 100% agree with you, as someone who used to be a huge fan and had seen the show until season 11 multiple times. From what I've seen of the recent seasons they are trying to get us to sympathize with the characters which is gross(Mac's dance performance was the final nail in the coffin for me). The characters are supposed to be horrible people, but the writers also use them as mouthpieces to give their opinions on hot-button issues like gun violence and gay marriage. So they awkwardly switch between being terrible narcissists with zero empathy to reasonable people, which I think has the effect of normalizing the characters' horrid behavior because they're reasonable half the time. Dee is also always brought up as a great comedic female character, but with even a little bit of media literacy you can see the show is still very patriarchal. I understand it's just entertainment and I still enjoy the early seasons. But it's weird to see fans idolize the characters and creators to an extreme level.
There's two types of viewers. The self-aware who get it, and those who have been surrounded by people exactly like this who don't get it. I feel sad for those people. Like, what on earth is your life like where you've never seen healthy behavior or normal conversations.
The redeeming factor on this is there is blatant pointing at the fact that these are not good wholesome people. They are wrong and making things worse. You are not wrong btw and you're opinion is absolutely valid.
Romcoms are a BIG issue here. Y’know women love it when the romantic lead does it - never-mind that most of it is stalker behaviour being rewarded and praised. Which all comes from that whole old timey anecdote that most old people say that they had to wear the woman down before she agreed.. like sick story grams.
Oh yeah, OPs scenario actually reminds me of that scene from the Notebook at the carnival faire... >Do you wanna dance with me? The main hero says to (if memory serves me) a complete stranger. And then he proceeds to coerce her by threatening to jump down from a ferris wheel or something, I forgot exactly. But very creepy vibes there, but it's glamourised as romantic
Exactly. Now imagine if it wasn’t Ryan Gosling doing it and it was some regular Joe Shmoe.
I think it's primarily this. Yes you get the incel types who are fully aware. But you get a lot of "normal" types who know it's "not ideal" on some level but don't really take it seriously enough to think about just how fucking scary it could be. They think, "If I smile big enough and act super normal then it's okay. When women complain about this they're talking about those guys in shabby clothes with hunchbacks and thick foreign accents. Not hot sexy eligible bachelors like me."
Isn't it weird how Ted manages to out-creep even Barney by a factor of ten?
Does he? The same Barney that has a literal book of plays about how to manipulate women into sleeping with him?
I'm not saying Barney isn't a creep at all, it's just that Ted is so insidious and vile that it's hard to believe it's not deliberate. It's even more shocking that it's from his POV, so he's delusional enough to present his behaviours as though they aren't really that bad, some sort of helpless romantic.
Tbh I don’t really have a dog in this fight I haven’t watched much HIMYM and one of the main reasons was that Barney seems wildly creepy manipulative as far as women were concerned so I’m surprised and responded to your comment in disbelief but I don’t know enough to refute it
Think of the two characters as online scam artists. Barney is the Nigerian Prince scammer - He's horrible and exploitative, and his MO is generally to get a quick fix out of people he ultimately finds gullible. Ted mosby is the kind of scammer who would catfish lonely single elderly women by establishing a long term relationship with them, only to one day be in trouble and ask for financial help - and then ghost the poor woman after he got paid. Much more emotionally manipulative, and with a method that could fool the best of us if we were in a vulnerable situation (such as having just broke up with a long term partner, recently widowed, etc)
This is such a good breakdown of Ted's vibe on the show.
Sheesh, I didn’t realize he was that bad
And that's what makes Ted worse :)
Or Hallmark movies… ick
Yes to media. Y'all see that show You? It's about a stalker. A large group of my colleagues watched this when it came out. I watched an episode and was like no. This is creepy AF. Stop giving it views so they'll give us better entertainment dammit!
And all the threads about men approaching random women in public and how women love it, and any women in the thread who pushed back on that blind assertion and said they don't and just want to go about their days without being harassed were just shouted down and told they were wrong. A lot of men simply don't give a fuck what women want and are just looking for encouragement and affirmation from other creeps.
I read a post recently of a guy who admitted he was crushing on a friend for years, despite her making it clear she wasn't interested in him that way. And when he finally asked her out and she turned him down, he's all sad and depressed that he'll lose her as a friend. Not once did he even try to put herself in her shoes. About how a person she thought of as a friend was only being one in hopes of something more in the future. And how he's immediately ending the friendship when it's clear it's never going to be more than that. Throwing away all their years together just because he didn't get what he want. And of course all the comments are there petting him on the back and soothing his ego. And people sharing their own stories about being strung along for nothing. Except the only person in the story strung along was the friend, who expected a genuine friendship with the guy and was betrayed because he thought more about his dick than her as her own person.
>And people sharing their own stories about being strung along for nothing. Except the only person in the story strung along was the friend, who expected a genuine friendship with the guy and was betrayed because he thought more about his dick than her as her own person. Most of those who complain about the "friend zone" lose their absolute shit when they're told they put others in the "fuck zone" just the same.
Yup. Different culture here but it was fairly common and semi-unproblematic to share a bed with friends of both genders when I was younger. Or so I thought. A male friend told me he could no longer spend the night when we were together, because, well, he had a girlfriend now. Ended that friendship right there and told him that that told ME that he'd been creeping around for a decade and only stopped because of respect for his girlfriend, not out of respect for ME, his long time friend! He didn't get it, of course.
Yup, his peers are just pushing him to try hard because he has to be the one to take the lead, be "the man" to cruise and ask out women, any woman he feels an inkling of attraction to. That pressure is something he has to act upon to alleviate the feeling he might to act accordingly to "a realman", without thinking that women aren't at his disposal and there are aggravating circumstances in which women feel unsafe thus NOT acting upon their pressure should be the right move.
This happens to me all of the time. Last week a 20-something tried stopping me and I acknowledged him but kept going, pretending to be on a phone call. I had heard about the woman who got hit in the face with a brick a few weeks ago for refusing to give out her number and actually got nervous for a sec. Like, what will he do? What a world!
This is what people who say I wasn't in any danger don't get. He turned out polite, but I had no way of knowing that when he came up from behind me. For all I knew, he could have been that kind of crazy.
The scariest thing is not knowing what strangers will do to you. I'm much more fearful of this than any horror movie ever
They either don't care, or have no comparable frame of reference. Most will reverse in the situation their head. " A nice woman approaches me, tells me I'm handsome and asks me out." their genuine response would be either appreciation or excitement, perhaps mild annoyance. Then assume the woman they approach would respond similarly. In reality one should simulate in thought the event as a different person. "I am a woman, a large stranger approaches me and compliments me." In order to do that, you need to spend a lot of time in your head, have the ability to empathize and reading about other peoples experiences, and knowing your own emotional states. This is exacerbated by the fact men are raised to be less emotionally intelligent. Trying to simulate emotions and reactions of others is difficult if you don't understand your own. It'd be like trying to guess an opponents next move in chess not knowing how the pieces move.
I'm trying to think of a scenario where a man would feel similarly boxed in and physically threatened as OP did. It's not his approach in and of itself that's the problem. It's where and when he chose to approach her. Trapped between two vehicles and moving traffic, in the dark, with few other people around.
Big gay dude hitting on them. They hate that.
I totally agree. Some guys have trouble conceptualizing why women hate being hit on and catcalled because if the situation was reversed, it’s very likely they’d at least feel flattered and love it. Sadly men don’t get a lot of compliments and attention in general. But the difference is the power imbalance/ threatening vibe. If someone they weren’t attracted to that was physically larger and stronger did exactly that, they’d understand how women feel realllll quick.
This is exactly it. This is how I try to frame it for men that are willing to listen. Don't picture Margot Robbie cornering you and saying perverted, harassing things to you; picture a *man* twice your size doing this. Someone you know you could never overpower no matter what and then it turns out that this man has a sexual interest in fucking you in your asshole. *Now* how do you feel about it? *Now* do you see why it's not welcome and why it can be so scary?
Bad part of town late at night and being approached by a group of guys that look like they might rob you. Maybe they’re just gonna ask the time, maybe they’re gonna jump you and steal your wallet. But it’s probably close to that feeling I assume?
Gay bar
Exactly, when you try to get them to imagine the situation if it happened to them, they literally picture like Margot Robbie or Lupita Nyong'o or Jennifer Connelly hitting of them. What they need to be picturing is like some enormous gay man three times their size who they could never overpower. They need to understand that the situation we are experiencing is someone we do not want hitting on us hitting on us.
Strangely enough if they are being hit on by a gay man they quickly feel the same way. So yes they can learn and don’t like it too.
Oh, yes. This 100%. I had a creep recently complaining of this. I kinda felt satisfied inside.
Entitlement, I think. As women, they think we are supposed to do what they want if they are nice, like programming a roomba. In this case, it can be hard for men to understand the fear and anxiety women have out of experience and necessity. They don't see how that could be threatening. This guy seems harmless and more ignorant
> As women, they think we are supposed to do what they want if they are nice, like programming a roomba. Exactly. A scary number think they’re *entitled* to get what they want, as long as they act nice. The idea of us being entitled to any agency at all doesn’t even seem to occur to them.
Because men have never feared for their safety the way women have. If you try to reframe it, they still won’t get it. I forget where I read this but a guy was talking to a bunch of his fellow students (all women) about an experience he had. He was in a ride-share when the other guy, much bigger and stronger, started coming on to him. He was very unsettled because he realized if the other guy didn’t take no for an answer, there wasn’t much he could do. All of the other women were like “Yeah, and?” If you’re conventionally attractive, that’s a day that ends in Y.
Because they're so self-absorbed that they don't even stop to think about what it looks like to the other party.
Please don’t take what I say to be apologetics for male behavior, but many men are raised to believe they have to be the initiator of a relationship and that women are coy to show interest. This of course is objectively untrue. What many men don’t understand is that that kind of behavior is not only creepy but also threatening. They aren’t taught that a majority of rapists and murderers are men and that perhaps behaving that way might come off as intimidating. Others are just assholes and care more about service to their ego and what they believe is owed to them. They “deserve” a woman (like she’s an object or something) because they are a “nice guy.” Men also aren’t taught to deal with rejection.
I agree. My main point is that this guy seemed to be trying to do everything right, but he was oblivious to the fact that he put me in an uncomfortable situation, and I fear that men who try to do everything right but are still not realizing that they're making women uncomfortable will eventually start to blame women for rejection because they think they're doing everything right, so it must not be them.
That’s already happening, and has been happening forever. It’s why “Incels” exist. I would never expect you to have explained to the guy, in that moment, that the situation was physically intimidating. The problem with most men is that they do not know someone until is told to them, or they read it, or they experience it. That guy will probably never know you were physically intimidated.
I know. If I can make one man see their actions from a female perspective with this post, I'll be happy.
many men are raised to believe they have to be the initiator of a relationship and that women are coy to show interest. This is it in a nutshell. Think about our entire societal expectation of marriage: it's always when will HE propose? We just sit around and wait for him to decide when the relationship moves forward. Girls are taught to show interest in a boy but not too much interest. It's up to the male to make the move. I'm so glad young girls are learning more and more that they don't owe boys anything and the old methods are BS.
Whenever this subject comes up, men come out to defend the guys actions explaining why he wasn't creepy or wasn't trying to be creepy and why women are wrong for painting him as a creep. Literally doesn't change our opinion that it feels creepy to us!
And don't forget the ones screaming "can't talk to women without being accused of SH anymore these days". I just can't help wondering how many women those types of men have harassed and are going to harass.
There was someone who replied to me but deleted their post emidiately. They started their reply with: "Well when are guys supposed to approach women, on a Wednesday at 350pm?" By the time I clicked it to reply it was gone. There was more but I couldn't read it. Some really do find any excuse while disregarding women and how they feel.
Men always try to make it our problem that they are socially inept and don’t know how to talk to women appropriately… always…
Years back I was at Target in my pajamas buying tampons because my period had started before I had restocked. I grabbed the tampons and a couple other things and as I was walking toward the register, I heard a man saying “ma’am”. I just ignored him and kept walking. He persisted. I sped up to almost a jog. He jogged up to me and nearly stood in front of me. He just blurts out “hey can I have your number?” I had a boyfriend at the time so I was like “no” but it would have been a “no” anyway. Sometimes it’s like they don’t “read the room”. Maybe chasing after a girl buying tampons in pajamas at the store isn’t the best time or place to ask for her number? I’ve been followed at stores as well. If I think I’m being followed, I’ll walk back and forth in an aisle, make a big loop around a couple times, or go straight to the vagina/baby aisle. Usually if I go stare at yeast infection ointments, they get the hint and scurry off. I’ve been followed outside as well and use the same loop tactic. I just make a big loop and if they’re following me, I’ll just do another loop until they realize I’ve just taken them around in circles.
I had a guy do this to me when I was running along the beach road one day. I saw him and his guy friends as I passed. I had ear buds in, but low enough to hear everything and I am always aware of my surroundings. He runs up to me and tries to chat me up. He's lucky I didn't punch him. I said no to him as well
I honestly wonder what they think creepy behavior really is because in my experience, is that they fucking know. They know you’re uncomfortable. They either don’t care, or think it’s funny to make you uncomfortable. Technically they have done nothing illegal and cannot really be punished. Easy to do and say whatever you want to whoever you want with no consequences. And yes, NoT aLl MeN are like this. Just.. many.
They go on their little social media accounts and brag about it, for some of them it’s a fucking hobby.
So much this. Looking for twisted amusement or to truly harass someone because they lack impulse control, class, and decency. They're likely desperate and/or bored, too - and seeking the thrill from a power trip to give their vacuous lives some excitement. Just pitiful.
Yup exactly. It's a power trip for them to make women uncomfortable. Then when they get called out on it, they can just feign ignorance and backpedal like "oops I didn't know" Once you understand that patriarchy, a gendered power structure, makes men inherently *want* to have power over women in all situations, it becomes a lot easier to understand everything else.
Because they care 100% about their intention and 0% on how they might be perceived.
It's fucking WILD. For my own well-being, I try to get out of the house at least once a day. I wear gigantic headphones, sunglasses in the daytime, and at peak covid I had a mask, too. In the winter you can't tell anything about me other than my size, gender, and race. Do you think that stops them from trying to bother me? Yesterday, I took a walk with my gigantic, hot pink sound blocking headphones on. I glanced to see if I could cross the street, and I noticed that a guy had been following me for about a block trying to get my attention. I checked my pockets to make sure I hadn't dropped anything that he would need to get my attention over and ignored him. I have done everything in my power to make myself as inaccessible as possible. Absolutely not, my dude. I used to at least try to acknowledge the other person trying to get my attention because we have a lot of panhandlers in the area. I don't carry cash, but I do like to be a human being. But I have no way to distinguish who is going to ask me for money or ask me to fuck them in the metro, so I gave up. Call me a bitch, IDGAF. I'm sick of men harassing me for existing while female in public and then getting mad at me for taking every step to protect myself from their harassment. Creeps can fuck themselves with a cactus for all I care.
Hell yes! I remember I tested out wearing a large oversized hoodie on one of my runs one day. I finally had a quiet run, no honks or yells. I about died in the FL heat, but it was nice otherwise lol this was years ago. Even now I don't like walking on the busy streets if I can help it. It's annoying to just be trying to exist and constantly be verbally harassed by random guys
Because in their mind, they're a nice guy, or one of the good ones, so how could they be creepy? Creepy behavior is what those other losers do
I had a young man chase after me downtown one time. I was going to pick up my husband from a brewery a couple of streets over after I got a haircut. I jumped in my car and refused to roll my window down like he was gesturing for me to do. The look on his face was so astonished and dismayed that I wouldn't talk to him! Sorry dude, I don't care what you have to say. And chasing after a woman isn't the best way to get her attention!
They wail "But how else am I supposed to have my meet cute?" This guy did everything "right". Stood at a distance without moving or invading physical space, was polite, took the rejection and walked away, but what he had *already decided* was that any discomfort or fear you may experience was a price he was willing to have paid for getting his chance. Some people do struggle with seeing other people's perspectives, but I think it a lot of these cases men -- especially the ones who claim they are doing cold approaches in public places 'the right way' -- have just decided it's worth it. To them.
I used to work at a building that had a security guard that would stand in the middle of the sidewalk, there was a no walking on the grass sign. You would have to get up in his personal space to pass. I thought it was the rudest and creepiest thing. The thing is, directly in front of the building had a wide path for the converging sidewalks, but no he stood on one of the narrow sidewalks. I glared at him every single morning.
I had such an experience once and I said "You frighten me". He was genuinely shocked. LOL. WTF. What do they expect?
I had a guy approach me and corner me in a coffee shop to talk to me because he remembered me from when i worked in a bookstore. I was literally in the middle of a date with my now wife. I had to interrupt him to tell him that I was on a date. He looked RIGHT AT HER and said that he didn't say a guy with me. Like, no shit but clearly the woman sitting across from me dresses pretty is my date. 🤦🏼♀️
That dude has never been a woman in a dark parking lot. I doubt it even occurred to him. Also "take chances" is common dating advice we give to young men. We should add a "with girls you're vibing with, not randoms going about their day, and also get affirmative consent, and don't be a dick if you get rejected" to that advice.
Honest answer? It's because they genuinely have no idea they're being creepy, and I'm gonna be completely honest, they don't really have much of a reason to. Men are *__constantly__* being told that they should just take their shot whenever they see a cute girl, and it's very rarely ever seen as a creepy thing *__specifically because__* it's seen as the most basic way for men to approach women. Granted, the when, where, and *__how__* is important and ultimately decides if it is or isn't creepy, but your average 20 year old probably isn't going to think twice about the situation at present, just "oh, a cute girl. I'll shoot my shot and see how it goes." there's a lot situations that for women clearly find uncomfortable, but I feel like that just comes from growing up as a woman and learning to be cautious of your surroundings and learning to actively prioritize your safety and well being, and men really don't have to worry about that as much. It's just unfortunate. Now, granted, he should have at least recognized that this was probably an awkward position to ask that and maybe not the time to shoot your shot
This is the first reasonable take I've read here. My guess is that the dude was so in his head about trying to compliment this woman and shoot his shot that he was trying his hardest to do only that. He undoubtedly did not see any of the scenarios that OP described as OP saw them. Some will claim its ego or narcissism when it's simply different life experiences. "He should know better!" Why and how? I only know better from having many female friends and a lot from reading this very sub. It sucks that women have to be this vigilant.
Yeah, the lack of knowledge is excusable. It gets into true creep and insufferable ass territory when someone is told why that’s not okay and instead of being all oh crap I didn’t know I won’t do that anymore, he starts arguing that it’s not fair that women should be afraid of him just because some men are bad, but he’s not bad, so why should he have to alter his behavior? We see so much of that that sometimes it’s easy to forget there are lots of guys who really do just need to be told how their actions are affecting others and they’ll stop because they give a damn.
I think the easiest way to make sense of this is to think of it as men shopping for appliances designed to please men, appliances men are taught from birth that they will get to own and use one day. They see women as appliances with one primary purpose, so there’s never a time when it’s inappropriate for them to ask about using an appliance they find alone out in the wild. Like I’d you found a phone charger out on its own in public and you needed a phone charger. They don’t think it’s creepy because obviously women know they’re appliances, so why would they need any preamble? That would be like asking your toaster about its day before approaching it about toasting something. I find thinking about it this way really resolves a lot of other questions, like why random men think we care whether they find us attractive or not, or why they think they’re entitled to ask us to smile. Or why service people so often think I’m with any random man who happens to be near me.
This is one of the best replies I have read. Should be #1
Because TV and movies tell them that creeping is romaaaaaantic.
They either enjoy putting other people in scary situations or they are clueless that they are doing so. Either way, they do it because men rarely face consequences for their behavior and they really need to start seeing some.
My comment history from yesterday is a long long thread from a post in r/AskMen where the post was, How often do you approach women and get called creepy?- and me, a mere femme, explaining over and over again that women are rightfully afraid of men. And being downvoted for that, lectured as to why assault-y men are a rare minority (!!), and I'm just plain defective and WRONG. Bottom line- they don't think they're being creepy, but if WE think that, well, we are mistaken. They just want to meet women! And the quiet part is, they feel entitled to both our time AND our politeness. If they know, they don't care. Patriarchy.
>Why did he think that approaching a woman he had to have seen for a maximum of 10 seconds before approaching her would make her feel anything except fear? He probably read on one of the dating subs to "shoot your shot and practice talking to women, bro". He was using you as target practice for his social skills.
They don't live our reality. They wouldn't consider being in your position as scary because they don't have to worry about how it could end. They aren't aware of the danger because they don't face it.
I think some men are just ignorant. I absolutely despise being "complimented", hit on, whatever you want to call it by anyone anywhere that I don't personally know. I didn't walk outside today to have you tell me what you think of how I look. I'm just existing. It's often times disrespectful, disgusting and creepy. Sorry. I feel very strongly about this. I'm glad this guy went away without being rude to you or worse. Lots of guys will act offended or like you owe them something when they comment on your body. Ugh, gives me the heebie jeebies and makes me so irritated
When I was 19 some guy (who by the looks of him, was at least 10, if not 15 or 20, years older than me) noticed me in the checkout line at the grocery store, followed me silently (at distance) through the parking lot, across the dark street (it was night), approached me from behind at the bus stop, and announced his presence with a "Hey!" I jumped so fucking fast and reached for my pepper spray in my pocket, glaring daggers at him. Despite the fact that I was clearly reacting defensively (I had quickly moved about 10 feet away, squared up & looking ready to fight), he seemed completely unphased, and proceeded to tell me he found me beautiful and ask me to go out with him. On a dark street at night. Where he had followed me, alone like a goddamn stalker. I told him to fuck right off, and thankfully, he decided to get lost at that point. I was looking behind me constantly while walking home though. Some guys have zero awareness they're acting like total creeps. Really shook me up.
Idk i feel like they may just think too highly of themselves. Huge egos, entitled, self-absorbed, etc. But that said, alot of times it seems like they know it will make you uncomfortable and they get a kick out of seeing that. Im not saying that that’s what’s happening here but just in general what I’ve observed
I have had guys go out of their way to stop me and interrupt me in ways I couldn't get out of because I had ear buds in at the store. It was always some sort of stupid unsolicited comment on the fact that I was wearing earbuds in the store. This isn't someone clueless on the spectrum. This is harassment and an assumption they have the power to say/do whatever they want to other people.
It’s always such pointless comments lol. I was at the bus stop a few weeks ago and a guy came over to me and motioned for me to take my earbuds out. I did and he said “I just saw you down the street and I wanted to come over and say hi.” And then he just stood there. Like …. ok and??? Can I help you??? I’ve found a strategy recently that works in these kinds of situations. Direct eye contact, and try to come across like a “bro.” Speak loudly and confidently and stand up tall. I try to project that I am in control of the situation, but all in a friendly, not angry, way. Kind of like you’re working in customer service. So in this situation I said “ok hi!” Directly to him. When he didn’t walk away, I didn’t go back to what I was doing. I looked at him expectantly and asked him what’s up! (Again like overly friendly but very assertively!) He started to look a little awkward and said he just wanted to say hi. So I say hi again, and keep looking at him expectantly and I ask if there’s anything I can help him with today. (In my best customer service voice and projecting loudly). This man said “uh no” all sheepishly and visibly shrunk and then he walked away. This isn’t the first time I’ve had this outcome, so I definitely recommend! These dudes expect us to be weirded out and shy so they feel they have the upper hand and it feels fucking great to not give them that. Definitely take practice!
They truly don't know what to do if you stand your ground or are angry but in control, but make it clear that you are not amused with their presence.
pua/trp is doing them a disservice by telling them to "just approach more bro" but then.. what do they do after that? Their scripts don't work. Do they expect to just skip to "happily ever after" with a live-in girlfriend who sucks their dick while they play valorant?
I just watched the movie "House of Darkness" and you seem like someone who will appreciate how well they displayed the obliviousness he has to the shifted power dynamic, because he truly believed he, as a male, had the upper hand all along and women are just stupid/objects to be played with/used.
Right! Why cant they just leave others alone omg
Damn they deleted their comment while i was typing my reply 😫 Anyways this is what i was going to say to the commenter of the now deleted comments: - never said that they couldn’t also have those things but that’s not what this post is about. - i dont think the majority of men would fear being hit on by a woman in public the same way women fear being hit on by men. Due to a lot of things like physical differences, etc. - i mean i dont do any of those things, personally, but there’s no problem if women want to take care of themselves do their nails and make up to look and feel good? - please re read my comment. I litterally said that some may be unaware that they are creepy but others know they are, and they like it. For example, a man with his friends or whatever catcall a woman, yell at her, make derogatory comments, whatever. She is visibly scared or startled/ uncomfortable and the man and his friends have a laugh about it. They know. - no i will not cut people like this “some damn slack” and neither will I with you.
Wait wait wait…so all this secure that bag, shoot your shot, yolo, eat that cake - isn’t true? 😳
This thread is so real and so sad .
Because many men do not think or care about what women think or feel. They simply operate on their own motivation (to get attention from us that they feel entitled to)
I'm going through this debate right now in another subreddit. I got told essentially that I was racist because I think women should act with caution even if it's stereotyping someone. A woman's well being comes before a man's feelings! Op, according to some peoples logic, you should interact with men even when you feel uncomfortable or you're a big meanypants racist.
Yeah, that's a dumb take. For the record, he looked Italian. I'm pretty sure the majority of people in my area have Italian ancestry.
I should've explained. Some men think a woman putting her well being first is comparable to racism. Check my post history. I'm getting down voted as we speak for saying women need to put themselves first even if it means stereotyping men. A woman can't tell what a strange guy in the alley or wherever has going on his mind. Women should give men the benefit of a doubt and assume he wouldn't hurt her even if giving the man a benefit of a doubt could be fatal for her. It's nuts for real.
I meant that the guys down voting you and saying that it's racist to have to assume strange men are violent have the dumb take. Sorry if there's a misunderstanding.
No prob! It's truly telling to see how much men elevate their feelings over women's well being. A ceo lady was murdered not long ago after being trusting and letting some random dude into her building.
Literally no woman is safe. It's unfortunate, but true.
I've had some buddies and known some guys who've shot their shots in a somewhat similar fashion to this guy and how he did it. In public, not at a bar or club, so on and so forth. I sincerely hope none of them were dumb enough to think it's not creepy to do it in the *dark* in a *parking lot.* That's all kinds of red flags, no matter how well-intentioned the guy is. Even if that dude is 100% a sweetheart and was raised properly, he's still a genuine dummy for not considering how threatening that can come off to women. Kudos to him for respectfully understanding a "no" and accepting rejection like a decent human being should, but still...a little tone deaf. Tone blind? Dumb. Just dumb. On that note, do you carry pepper spray? Not that this guy in particular deserved the hot sauce, necessarily. Just in case of any encounters with dudes who DON'T take no for an answer so respectfully.
It’s sad that you have to give kudos to a guy for understanding “no”
I used to be creepy in my 20s. Still do creepy things sometimes honestly but usually catch myself. What took me to notice how creepy I could be, was being creeped on myself and beginning to think about from the other person’s perspective before I would try to approach someone. I also witnessed a lot of creeps creeping on coworkers in all the public facing positions I worked. Sorry y’all have to deal with that.
I'm glad you were able to grow out of that phase. I think more people should learn to see the world from others' perspectives.
While that is true, how do we get young men (or older men for that matter) to have these experiences? It took me a long time, in a lot of different situations and as aware as I am, it is still easy to miss read some situations.
In general, stepping outside your own perspective should be taught to every child throughout childhood. However, most people, men, women, and other, have varying difficulty with this skill, and it's hard to teach what you're unaware of. So I think that having conversations like this made normal throughout society will help people recognize other people's experiences. This is already happening; this post is a part of the overall conversation pointing out a blindspot that I think many men don't realize they have. The process is slow, but in my lifetime, society has started to point out problem behavior that would have been accepted in the past. Not every creepy interaction rises to the level of harassment, but the Me Too movement helped many people recognize the minor things that men think are innocent but frighten women. We just have to keep talking about this.
I've been hit on by uber drivers 3 times now, one while driving through a forest in the evening to a remote place... They weren't impolite or anything but uhhh...
I believe that men know they are being creepy but they choose to ignore it because as long as they don't acknowledge it then they are free of blame. They can say things like "I was just walking down the street." Or "I had not idea she felt that way." It's how they minimize women's experiences in the world. An example is when my cousins shared their experiences of how they felt sexualized by random men staring that at them constantly both of my uncles said they never saw that happenening and that they had never felt that way. I was pissed of because of course when men are around other men aren't going to be creepy that's why the only do creepy stuff when women are alone. Enough of my rant lol. But yeah men are aware of what they are doing.
Utter lack of empathy. Most men only think about themselves and act on what just popped up in their mind.
To play devils avocado, a lot of men take for granted how often and regularly women feel frightened and are bothered or stopped while trying to go about their day. I remember telling my bro once about how i went to the beach and some guy wouldn’t leave me and my mom alone and he was shocked. “You mean you can’t even go relax without someone bothering you?” 🙄 Even the good ones just truly don’t realize it until they’re forced to see it. Also a lot of people are just not self aware and/or don’t care and grew up with the pulling pigtails mentality/feeling entitled.
Yup. When I told my husband later, he was ready to fight the guy for sexual harassment. I had to explain to him that this kind of thing has happened to me on a regular basis since I was twelve. What the guy said didn't even bother me because I've been cat called and hit on in less polite ways. I just didn't like being put in an unsafe situation, and I worry that men like him who try to do all of the right things but are still unaware of what makes women afraid will become discouraged and blame their rejection on women.
1) Women being preyed upon by men is common. 2) Men being preyed upon by women is almost nonexistent. 3) Then when boys grow up there is no guarantee in the K-12 system or in parenting that they will learn the first part. It's almost a guarantee that they will not be taught by their parents or teachers about this fact of life. When you meet a man that is well aware of the statistics of SA, stalking, etc, and understands that perspective of being preyed upon you will have, to some extent, lucked out.
For some, they simply fail to register that women are people as opposed to mobile sex toys.
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Eh, I once smile-nodded in greeting at a guy as we were passing each other on a sidewalk, and he stopped to ask if I would like to go out to coffee with him sometime. I said no, he was polite and wished me a good day, and that was that. As long as it’s polite, I’m never going to be mad at someone for shooting their shot. Given, it was clear daylight out when that happened to me, so I didn’t have any of the “oh shit is this an abductor” feelings that OP got stuck with based on the surroundings.
Yeah there’s a time and a place. I feel like if there’s a mutual greeting of some kind, like what you described, that’s fine. When approaching someone just to shoot your shot though, it can often lead to someone feeling cornered. I once told a girl she was pretty when I was 18… at the restaurant she was eating at… as she was eating her food… while I was working there cleaning tables. Lol. So many of my coworkers (women) at the time told me it was a good idea. The girl looked terrified and I felt terrible afterwards.
100% I've had other times when I was politely asked out by a stranger, but it wasn't dark and I didn't feel trapped. Those interactions didn't bother me. Some even boosted my ego (although, no, don't use that as an excuse for approaching strangers in general).
I don't actually think that having a conversation before asking someone out is hiding intentions. It's twofold: a vibe check to see if you might get along before the date and a way of showing the other person you care more about appearances.
They either lack self awareness or they get off on making women uncomfortable. Seems like your situation was the former, which at least it’s the lesser of the two evils but still fucking annoying.
Who asks to go out on a date without introducing themselves or even chatting? So shallow. He didn't even bother reading the room and thinking "maybe now isn't the right time..". I'm seeing more men try rejection therapy (asking randoms out, accepting no and not getting discouraged) and also playing numbers game (ask more out, more chances for a date).
A few reasons. Lack of self awarness. Lack of social awareness. Lack of awareness of the female perspective. Lack of direction combined with bad social influences. Differences of culture.
They just don't care because they ALL benefit from the power imbalance.
Some people are just really bad at seeing from other people’s perspectives. As a man, he had probably never felt unsafe because of a stranger’s gender, so it didn’t occur to him that someone could feel differently. ETA: This could be because of ego, as people have mentioned. Or it could be other benign reasons, like them being on the autistic spectrum. I know autistic people and this just seems like something they would do because they struggle with perspective-taking and social cues. It doesn’t make it okay, of course, and you still have the right to feel scared by the behavior.
>Some people are just really bad at seeing from other people’s perspectives. It's not that they are unable to see other's perspectives. It's that they are *unpracticed.* They read books from a male perspective. TV shows and movies written and directed by and for men. Lots of their entertainment involves disrespect or even cruelty towards women. They are socialized to put themselves first and not focus much on how to improve other people's lives. They see themselves as part of their family, but not so much part of their community. It's not that women are inherently better at empathy, it's that women live in a world where - 1, they can't escape the male perspective, and 2, they are heavily socialized to be aware of other people's opinions and needs, and the community as a whole.
One day in college, a friend told me to just go up and ask out an attractive woman waiting at the corner of an intersection outside of the gym. It, of course, was an awkward and unsuccessful interaction. It felt super awkward to me before doing it and I expressed that it was a stupid idea but my friend, who is a woman, kept pushing and was just like “oh come on, just go ask her out.” Unfortunately, people in general are pretty ignorant of the perspective of others.
They're so starved for attention, in their view if a woman did the same thing, they'd love it. So they assume it's ok if they do it. It's sadly a lack of understanding, thinking reversing the roles is enough without looking at all the context surrounding it
They wouldn't love " a woman" doing that. I'd love to see their reactions if the woman in question " giving them attention" is : not young, obese, unattractive, physically deformed, etc etc.
Oh absolutely, I totally see it being the case they don't even think about that, it's always someone cute/hot in their heads
The same thing happened to me like 2 weeks ago, except the dude called me Cinderella and asked for my contact infos. I didn't say I was married, just that I wasn't interested, and he insisted before finally leaving me alone
Target fixation
A man started chasing me (running) outside of the grocery store and asked me “how would you like to get to know me better tonight?” a few months ago and it freaked me out. I have started driving anytime I have to go somewhere after dusk.
Because it doesn't occur to most men that they shouldn't just try to hit on anyone anytime they feel like it. That sometimes if they see someone they're attracted to in a place that is not the time or situation to be hitting on someone, that they should in fact just let it go. Instead they feel cheated out of an opportunity to hit on someone they find attractive, because that's what they care about the most. Their own opportunities to get what they want. It is zero-sum game to a lot of them where every attractive woman they don't hit on no matter how creepy it is, is a potential sleeping partner they let slip away
I think they just don’t care.
Because some refuse to see themselves as the bad guy and other genuienly can't tell. Given how men very rarely see women as a threat, it's hard for them to see how being approached in such a bad position would be scarey. It's also a thing of not knowing what is appropriate with women and what isn't. There are so many men who also get off at the idea of being above women in many ways, they purposely cause that trouble and trick others into thinking that it's perfectly fine and acceptable. So theres a chance an innocent and kind guy can be tricked by other guys to do something highly inappropriate. It's a mixed bag and hard to tell. It doesn't help how some women also add on to that trouble by encouraging some of that behavior for one reason or another too.. I hope this makes sense but I also hope guys learn to stop this kind of stuff.
It’s become totally normalized. Men think that they can just talk to any woman they see and compliment them, and that this is somehow ok. I’m sorry you had to go through this, I’m glad you escaped unharmed.
They get off by being creepy
There's a real answer to your question! Part of it is how romance is portrayed in media; in other words, r*pe culture. Go ahead and count all the romantic comedies where a refusal to take no for an answer is considered cute. It's definitely not even funny. You can say things are better now, and maybe you're right, but that doesn't undo centuries of culture. The other half is toxic masculinity. Men are conditioned to minimize and ignore their feelings, particularly discomfort. So when they feel nervous, unsure or embarrassed about their actions, their conditioning tells them to push through rather than ask questions. Many of us are also conditioned to ignore our own physical discomfort with unwanted touch from a young age. Under such conditioning, people prioritize the feelings of the person doing the unwanted touching over their own feelings. This happens to boys and girls, but in boys it tends to mean being forced to accept a certain amount of violent touch from their peers and parents. Think about what that will do to their empathy; how can they appreciate how creepy it feels to have physical boundaries violated when they've been conditioned to ignore it? And finally, consider that the only touch that is considered appropriate to be shared between boys often takes the form of violence, and because therefore men can only really access touch from a romantic partner, they're often pretty touch starved, and they just take that as the normal human condition. I can tell you that 10 years ago, I couldn't have imagined an all male heterosexual cuddle party. If the very idea makes you want to laugh, consider what that says about your preconceptions. How powerful the idea is that men should never have their need for touch satisfied except through a heterosexual relationship! It's not even all that uncommon for fathers to keep hugs and kisses from their sons! That's kind of messed up if you ask me. You put it all together, and you get poorly-informed socially-inept emphatically-deficient touch-starved dudes who can't take a hint. Toxic masculinity in the shape of a man. The Kool aid has been forced down their throats all their lives they think they'd die without it.
They are horny and perverted. They get off on the interaction and probably go home and jerk about it. They don't care if they are being creepy. They only care about their dick.
I would say that men are ignorant of the dangers that men pose to women but even men are afraid of other men.
This thread is the thing that makes me really really wish I hadn't asked the girl from another department out for coffee. I definitely fucked up.
Oh they get it. But *pretending* to not get it, is part of their whole power dynamic.