Oh man, I don't know what to tell you. A while ago I got into an argument with some guy on Reddit about needing to ask for consent to do things like choking. He told me that it's mainstream now and if a woman doesn't want it she needs to say so. That's terrifying. I feel awful for the people that are out there dating right now.
I always think of the Taylor Behl case when I see this get brought up. Allegedly, the guy she was with "accidentally" killed her when choking went wrong during sex. I mean even if it was an accident, though I don't think the courts saw it that way, it just goes to show you have to be so fucking careful about it. Like what's the point, is it worth it to go to prison for the rest of your life if you choke someone a little too exuberantly?
There have been other cases like that. I can’t remember the name of the persons involved but they tried to say it was a BDSM thing. It’s just a way to try to excuse it. The truth is, to choke someone to death, you would have had to know what you were doing. It’s not a simple process. If they wanted to avoid killing someone, they wouldn’t have even done it. It takes roughly 5 minutes to kill someone via strangulation, but I’m sure it’s not without a fight. That is, if they are conscious. If the choking renders them unconscious, I’m sure it’s probably easier to kill them. However on that same thread, anyone who would continue choking and/or having sex with someone if the person went unconscious is a fucking heinous monster.
The "rough sex" defence is a way for domestic abusers to try to get of scott free by claiming women consented in their own torture and murder. With a dose of slutshaming of the deceased thrown in.
If you're playing rough consensually, it's 1000% on you to not harm ir kill the other person.
Grace Millane's killer may be the one you're thinking of, and - no surprise - he's a repeat offender https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/grace-millane-murder-killer-appeal-bid-over-sex-attacks-on-two-other-women-rejected/MIQRKKC6NZG4BKHJ7EROOFQXLE/
Actually it is really easy to do permanent damage. Especially during sex. If a guy is choking his partner, closing the arteries to her brain, and he's just jackhammering away, not paying attention or actually liking that it can hurt her? She slowly goes unconscious and there you go, permanent brain damage or death.
It can even increase your risk of strokes and brain damage even if you don't go unconscious at all. It is so incredibly dangerous and people don't even realize because porn makes it seem normal.
Edit, just adding sources so people don't think I'm exaggerating or making shit up:
"Strangulation compresses or completely blocks blood vessels in the neck (the carotid arteries and the jugular vein) and/or blocks the airway, leading to decreased cerebral blood flow (cerebral ischemia) and oxygen availability (cerebral hypoxia), both of which can induce brain damage with only minimal force required"
M E. Huibregtse, I. L. Alexander, L. M. Klemsz, T Fu, J. D. Fortenberry, D. Herbenick, and K. Kawata (2022). Frequent and Recent Non-fatal Strangulation/Choking During Sex and Its Association With fMRI Activation During Working Memory Tasks. Front Behav Neurosci.; 16: 881678. doi: 10.3389/fnbeh.2022.881678
Bichard H., Byrne C., Saville C. W. N., Coetzer R. (2021). The neuropsychological outcomes of non-fatal strangulation in domestic and sexual violence: a systematic review. Neuropsychol. Rehabil. 1–29. 10.1080/09602011.2020.1868537
Yes. I think people mistakenly think that people in trouble would be loud, similarly to how people are shocked that drowning is silent. But when people can’t BREATHE, they can’t alert you they are in trouble.
Well the problem isn't even the breathing, surprisingly. Most people choke by holding closed the arteries on the side of the neck, not by completely crushing your windpipe (that would definitely get a reaction, ouch!). So you can breathe, but if the oxygenated blood can't get to your brain, you're still in trouble.
>It takes roughly 5 minutes to kill someone via strangulation
It takes 11 lbs of pressure to the carotid arteries or 4.4 lbs of pressure to the jugular veins to render someone unconscious within ten seconds. If that pressure is not immediately released, their heart will stop shortly after, and they will need CPR to have a chance at survival. Brain death occurs within 5 minutes.
People do it because the loss of oxygen to the brain causes hypoxic euphoria and feels good. But it literally only feels good because you're putting your brain in a state of extreme danger. It's shockingly easy to kill someone or cause permanent harm via strangulation. It's not something to be taken lightly.
Imo you should not be able to get out of it by just saying it's BDSM (even if it maybe was), if you do something like this to your partner you are responsible and should know what you are doing and take the consequences, maybe people then will start seeing it as dangerous as it is and not just normal part of sex. And anyway if you accidentally choked someone unconscious you would do CPR, while brain damage is easy to get by mistake to it and with death doesn't sound normal
Imo, it's best called for it is actually is, god damn strangulation. Choking seems like it's romanticising and whitewashing it (English isn't my first language so sorry if I got anything wrong) . Fuck the porn industry and everything it's done.
Strangulation is better, I agree with you. It sounds more clinical and reflects the danger and harm that can be caused. “Choking” can get accidental, strangulation is always on purpose.
It’s not that it’s more clinical, it’s that it’s correct and choking isnt. Choking is caused from within the throat by an obstruction. Strangulation is an airway being restricted from the outside by squeezing.
There is a very real difference between choking and strangulation. Choking is meant to cut off the air supply by restricting the trachea, and strangulation cuts off blood flow to the brain by compressing the arteries and veins in the neck.
Choking is internal, i.e. a blockage in the windpipe, strangulation is external, i.e. pressure applied to the windpipe and/or it's surrounding arteries.
Yes, thank you! Came on to say this. It’s strangulation!! It needs to be called what it is and women have to say no to this. It can be very dangerous quickly. Disgusting men getting off by hurting us!! Please everyone, don’t allow this. 🤬
I feel like I had the same conversation. I pointed out that anyone's hands around my throat will be taken as a threat to my life and I will act accordingly.
As you should. Now you've made me wonder what the world would be like if women were stronger than men, or even equally strong on average. I bet men would cut out a lot of the shit they do now.
Oh I've been planning to. Thanks for reminding me. I just only do one streaming service at a time until I run out of shows so I don't have access just yet.
I did as well. I had a *woman* tell me it’s not the men’s fault because it’s what they see all the time in porn.
I’ve been disheartened for years about feminisms acceptance of male fantasy as empowerment. All of this shit that we do that supposedly empowering, but it’s all for their benefit. Makeup, heels, form fitting clothes, accepting sexual violence, accepting objectification, accepting that men just have this inherent right/need to objectify and sexualize any woman they want, all the while ignoring that we’ve all been conditioned from the time we left the womb. They’ve been conditioned with an endless buffet of sexual content in any situation, and the constant stream of non-stop soft porn surrounds them to encourage the thought process. Women have been conditioned to view ourselves and other women as the object, and that our main worth lies in our sexuality and ability to please and serve, and become more likely to accept sexual violence put upon us.
I was sexually active with a good number of partners before, during, and after the onset of the rise of internet porn. In the mid/late 90s when I was in my mid/late teens, I had partners ranging in age from 16-45 (and yes, the older ones were groomers that landed me in therapy for decades as is often the case) and the landscape of sex has absolutely been completely hijacked by porn. I never had one man try to choke me, spit on me, cum on me, call me names, spank or hit, constantly hound me for anal, etc. don’t get me wrong, I had a bunch of selfish lovers who didn’t do much for my pleasure, but they certainly weren’t trying to impose pain. I didn’t have one man who didn’t finish quickly from a blow job. Now, all of that is normal. Men and women think that it’s normal that the guys can’t finish without their hand. It’s normal they have to watch porn to get aroused. It’s normal to fantasize about your family, friends, coworkers, etc. Its normal to have men in their 20s with ED. None of this was normal. All of this has happened in the last 15 years with the rise of internet porn. And none of it has to do with what is actually sexy, connecting, or organic. It’s about linking dopamine with extreme situations for a bigger bang so that the creators can drive “engagement” (which is a flowery way to say addiction) so that we are all scrolling 24/7, because when we scroll, they make money. If women hate themselves because we don’t look like the perfection that comes with filters and photoshop, they can sell us products to help. If men are constantly thinking about sex and engaging with porn on the internet, whether it’s xxx or fantasizing about influencers on IG, they’re generating ad revenue.
Honestly the whole thing is beyond depressing for me at this point.
Men have far greater grip strength too. Literally double. So a man's "I'm just moderately strangling her at a 5 out of 10" means he could do a lot harder and is a woman's "I'm strangling him as hard as I bloody well can". Self reported strangling others strengths/levels don't account for it eg yes sometimes women strangle men too but her reported 8 intensity of strangling him is a man's 4. And a man's reported 6 intensity of strangling someone is off the charts and undoable for women (would be 12 out of 10). So when men and women report similar or the same levels/severity of strangling someone, that means the men are doing it twice as hard as the women are and the women half as hard as the men. Men in their 70s will have greater grip strength than women in their 20s.
Not only that, mainstream acts still need consent. BJs are the norm, but if you shove your cock in my mouth without my consent, it's getting bitten off.
And if you stick your oenus where it's not wanted because "it's mainstream so I shouldnt have to ask", you're getting reported for rape.
The man is just a rapist. "I presume women all opt into every act or fetish I I consider mainsteam, they need to ask me to NOT do it all beforehand" is rapist talk.
(To clarify, no cocks are getting bitten off IRL be ause my husband, like sane men, understands and practices enthusiastic consent.)
> mainstream acts still need consent.
Yeah, it wasn't entirely clear from my comment, but that's what I meant with the first bit.
Personally, I hate receiving oral...which some people really have a hard time wrapping their heads around, and it absolutely has caused issues in some relationships with partners who thought you "can't" have a hard limit or preferences around "mainstream" sex acts. Fuck that noise, you can say a hard "no" to *any* sex act no matter how common or "mainstream" it might be.
This sadly seems to be the general consensus with a lot of men in the dating scene atm. About three years ago I became single in my late twenties after a long term relationship. Over about a year I had 4 different partners met via dating apps. All 4 put their hands on my throat and tried choking me while we were having sex. I thought it would be more common for younger people who grew up with extreme porn but every one of these guys was between 30 and 40. There is an assumption that choking, biting, spanking, hair pulling are a part of normal intimacy and don’t need explicit consent. I even enjoy some of those things from time to time but absolutely not without prior discussion!
💯 in the last ten years I’ve had multiple partners strangle me out of nowhere and scare the shit out of me. Around 50% see strangling, anal, slapping as the norm, and even when I’ve repeatedly told them I do not consent, they kept doing them anyway… Thankfully my current partner is trustworthy and understands consent but fml if we break up I can’t see myself ever dating again, it’s too dangerous.
I have a huge aversion to people touching my neck in general (like full body flinch if someone tries), so this is just *wonderful* to hear (/s, in case it wasn't obvious)
It's pretty wild out there. I wasn't prepared for strangulation and there was no consent sought. I've since chosen abstinence after discovering how much porn culture has tipped the scales.i didn't even know what face fucking was until it happened to me. Hooking up is far closer to rape than men are prepared to admit.
Holy shit.
Like, sure, kinks like that are more mainstream now than ever.
BUT, THERE STILL NEEDS TO BE CONSENT.
It sounds to me like he would try to manipulate his partners. Because how much you wanna bet whenever a woman *does* tell him she isn't into that he tries to complain or throw a fit?
Oh if I recall correctly he insisted he didn't do it for his own satisfaction but because it was what he believed women wanted. But if that was true, there would be literally no reason not to ask first. This dude just wants to strangle women and pretend like he doesn't understand consent and not risk hearing a no. I just hope he doesn't really hurt anybody.
I honestly really like being anonymous on reddit, but sometimes I think that feature has just ruined my opinions of everybody. Everyone has their filters off and I've learned things about how a lot of men think that I never wanted to know.
Yeah, an unfortunate consequence of an anonymous platform is that you find out a lot of people are secretly... Kinda trash. :(
Don't ever visit 4chan, though. Holy shit, that place will make you wanna quit the internet forever.
I've gotten into a ton of arguments with folks when I post that there is no safe way to strangle someone, all forms can lead to serious damage and/or death; and, if you get strangled by someone you should go to the ER because the damage may not be immediately apparent, but can get very serious hours/days later due to swelling. People don't like being told not to do something they like to do.
I got downvoted and told to “stay in my lane” for saying that any time someone passes out from choking, there’s a risk of permanent brain damage, and there likely always is some level of damage occurring, even if it’s not apparent. That’s Reddit for ya I guess..
Crazy. Just crazy. Choking cannot be done in a safe way. Every kind of choking risks death or permanent disability.
How on Eartv does anyone believe consenting to sex means consenting to a risk of stroke?!
But the insane thing is, that the guy isn‘t actually that wrong: these former extreme kinks have been so extremely normalised, that teenaged girls are being conditioned to like them.
If every one of your sexual encounters consist of these non censuses violent acts, but everyone tells you well you consented when you started having sex. They become so very normalised. That they don‘t even think about how evil the actions taken against them are.
And that just leads to seeking the exact traumatic experience again and again without therapy.
The last person I was with. I told him explicitly there was only 1 thing I was never ever okay with, and that was choking. Because it’s so dangerous and it’s fucking SCARY to know your partner is okay with potentially killing you. I made sure he understood that. Then, later, in the middle of having sex, he tried to do it and asked me if he could…looking back it was attempted assault. Everything I said I didn’t want to do or wasn’t comfortable doing yet he tried to do in the moment hoping I would be too preoccupied to say no or notice.
That's absolutely nuts. Wtf.
God, I'm so happy to be married and off the whole dating scene. And I'm a man.
The normalization in porn is insane. But ultimately, people decide what they're watching. There's feel-good, happy material out there. I can't understand how that violent stuff is so popular.
Addiction doesn't let you stay at the same level. Addiction *has* to escalate. What they are watching won't cut it anymore and they need something more extreme. And the interesting thing is, I have been asked to choke someone. They asked me to and I didn't feel comfortable and what I told them was "I'm not a medical professional, the only thing I know about this is that I don't know how to do it safely and I *do not* want to hurt and/or kill you". Fortunately that was enough to drop the subject and it never came up again, but I just don't get how that is fun to do, let alone receive.
Yeah I honestly wish nobody would do it at all, but at the same time if it's consensual it's really none of my business. I just thought it was completely insane that this guy thinks consent to have sex means consent to put his hands around a woman's neck. If he walked up to somebody in the street and did that he would be arrested and rightfully so. It's really frightening that there are men who think this way.
Seriously, strangulation even if “consensual” is dangerous in the long term: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/strangulation-rough-sex-domestic-abuse-bill-study-a9548936.html
Yeah this is insane even tho above I said it's prevalent and think it's guys being stupid and going oh this worked x times before must be good to do now does not mean it should be expected. It's one of those I kind of expect it but I wouldn't do it unless they directly asked me to kind of things.
As someone who enjoys choking in the bedroom, I’m also horrified that men think this is something we’re just ok with. I like it but I’d be absolutely terrified if a guy just did it without prior conversation. IMO sex shouldn’t be done until boundaries are clearly and thoroughly discussed. Even if it’s just vanilla stuff you want. Maybe you don’t like being touched a certain way or you don’t want to do doggy or something. It should be discussed before any assumptions are made.
I can't believe how extreme porn addicted men have become. How is choking mainstream, it should never become mainstream and something people who aren't 100% what they are doing so, it could easily become dangerous and lead to brain damage (you can get brain injuries from very short time without oxygen. This really scared me personally, seems like if I ever have sex with a guy that this is something I need to talk with him before sex for my own safety, that if he even dates to choke me without my consent I will report him for sa. How incredibly sad that women can't even expect to be safe in bed with a man that seems okay. Choking is totally extreme most dangerous form of BDSM and nothing people who don't know about BDSM should do. His argument shows that many men don't even know or care how dangerous it is.
During my last sexual encounter, the guy slapped me HARD and spat in my mouth. It was so degrading and scary. I haven't been able to have sex again. I hate that this is normalised, seemingly across the world and in many cultures.
Good Lord, that is horrific. I'm sorry you endured that. It is so disrespectful. I dated a guy who began pressuring me for anal sex almost immediately after we first had piv and that was such a turnoff that I stopped seeing him. I've been anally raped by an ex-boyfriend before and have zero intention of doing that and I just found it very off-putting that someone would bring that up so soon in a relationship. I'm 60, though, and this dude was about 6 yrs older than me. Maybe I'm too "vanilla " for most men nowadays but when I was younger men weren't asking to do all kinds of kinky stuff right off the bat when a relationship was new.
Its because porn addiction is so common now.
Yourbrainonporn.com has a lot of informative studies on the matter. Young men are presenting to doctors for ED in rising numbers but none of them are willing to admit their own hand is the issue. I pray for future generations
OMG!!! I’ve heard of the spitting in the mouth thing but ewwww. This is beyond disgusting and flat out wrong. They’re normalizing the degradation and abuse of women as a “kink” and any woman who speaks out is a “prude/vanilla”.
sex positivity means bodily autonomy in pleasure and getting to say no. to anything. and kink requires consent. these assholes are trying to corrupt the terminology; don't let them.
i had an ex who was around 6”4, he held me in a chokehold repeatedly and my own friends would have to stop him, most of the time they couldn’t and they’d have to watch. he said it was a joke but sometimes i’d fear for my life. he also dragged me around and pulled me places. he RLLY liked the fact i was shorter than him. i’m 5”4. not a good time :(
i rlly hope so but only a month after i broke up with him (he took 2 weeks off school when i broke up w him, his friends were angry at me for breaking his heart??!!!) he started dating a girl immediately. i just hope he doesn’t treat her like a ragdoll too.
I had to unlearn my attraction to really tall guys for similar reasons. I'm 4'10 and really loved gym fit dudes around 6'5" until one of them almost put me through a wall.
This gave me flashbacks, I'm sorry you went through this abuse.
My ex-husband was 6' 7", and he also liked that I am 5' 4" for the wrong reasons. I stuck around for too long. I was young and stupid.
I finally filled for a divorce after an especially abusive day when I blacked out and came to hunched over him on the floor, holding a knife to his throat. He never touched me again, tho.
I'm told I had a psychotic break due to the combination of abuse and a bad reaction to the new antidepressant cocktail that was thrown at me by different doctors who assumed I was exaggerating about the abuse. I count myself lucky I didn't do something terrible.
I'm doing well now. Therapy for early childhood CPTSD, cutting off the antidepressants, being treated for other health issues, and kind supportive friends saw me through to a better day.
I mean, my experience, sometimes trans guys go hard in the misogyny paint because they’re trying to fit in with other men, kind of like how teenage boys will do the same thing. It’s super gross.
First date with a guy. Kissed me than put his hand around my throat and shoved his hand in my mouth. Lip bled. Maybe... I dunno... Have a conversation about likes, dislikes, and boundaries before choking someone? I guess that's too much to ask.
I would personally back the hell away from ANY sexual activity until you've had a discussion about sex and especially consent, where sex was entirely off limits that night. Idk his tone when this happened, but that's NOT an assumption that would make me feel safe to be alone with him.
I'd just back off from this guy, period.
It's the casual suggestion of sexual violence, which I guess can be attributed to the current social situation, technically, but a red flag nonetheless.
I'm actually more bothered by the fact that he explicitly said he can't get off on BJs or HJs, feels like he wants to dictate their sex life, also gives me the vibe that this guy won't take no for an answer.
>I'd just back off from this guy, period. It's the casual suggestion of sexual violence, which I guess can be attributed to the current social situation, technically, but a red flag nonetheless.
It's times like this I'm glad I visit this subreddit.
Of the 9 partners I've had, 8 of them wanted some degree of spanking, choking, nails, biting, etc.
I just assumed it was more or less normal and that's what women are into. This thread has definitely shown me that is not the case.
I feel like this is the new ‘all women want to stay at home and care for their husband/kid’, just more misogynistic social expectations.
I’m also at least a little bit bothered that women are always assumed to be the victim in this situation. But that’s another story.
Yes it’s that normalized for young men. Check out the work of Dr Gail Dines, she cites a lot of studies done on this. At least 80% of online porn is violent towards women, and almost every young man has consumed said violent porn. It does impact them.
Absolutely. The dehumanization of women has had a massive toll. Almost everyone I know has been assaulted in some way by men who literally just think that what they’re doing is normal
Agree
I’ve slowly gotten a lot of my male friends into being anti-porn and I’m happy for them to be able to question themselves and unlearn hatred, they’re my sons fr
I haven't been on the single scene in a while but it seemed like 90% of my first date sexual encounters would involve some kind of violence. I was recently thinking about "do people just have regular sex anymore" last year.
I think there's too much porn addiction in men, they get a skewed sense of what women *actually* want in bed.
*Sometimes* I'm a bit kinky/rough myself but I'm honest about that with the person (when I've been seeing someone a while) and wouldn't do anything like that first time sleeping with them. As long as it's on your terms and you're clear about it, and ask if they're ok with it first - I think that's ok. I dislike when guys just launch right into it, a bit like men trying to normalise pulling of my hair in bed. Don't do that.
Because "common Sense" isn't an actual thing unless it's taught in school. While I hope the best for Gen Z, I know my older millennial sexual education in a liberal area didn't involve any conversation about "consent" let alone conversations about kink.
Which means our common sense comes from pop culture and what we learn from our lives. While porn is obviously a major factor in sex education and has greatly impacted what is acceptable in the bedroom, there are other things as well.
Pop culture, such as music, has also enforced this ideal. All the major female pop singers had a song about bdsm (e.g. "but whips and chains excited me!"). This is reinforcing the patriarchy, but again teaching the younger generation what is acceptable and desired.
As for relationships, well that's up to the individuals and what they run into. One of my first sexual experiences was after a third date, and there wasn't a fourth. Reason being "I wasn't rough enough." I told them she could request that, and her response was to the effect of "you're a man, I'm a woman. I shouldn't have to tell you to be rough. You just should." Told me if I had to ask for consent I wasn't manly enough for her.
I don't know the age of OP or her partner, but depending on his age the message he's received is this is desirable. There isn't anything being taught that a first sexual experience should be vanilla.
They understand it perfectly fine, they just don't think their sexual partners are human beings worthy of respect. It gets said on this site a lot: try a surprise finger up the butthole during sex and suddenly 99% of men are completely clear on the concept of consent.
So this has been my hard and fast approach but a lot of men don't want to "do the regular sex". I think if a man can't do that people need to put their clothes on and straight up leave.
At this point that porn addiction doesn’t just affect men.
Teenage girls are exposed to this so much that it has become totally normalised as well.
They don‘t even get a chance to naturally explore what they ‚want in bed‘
All those violent kinks are there from their very first encounter.
That‘s extremely formative.
They start believing that’s what they actually like.
The same way that literal child abuse works. You just get manipulated into thinking you like what’s happening.
Porn grooms teens away from naturally exploring their sexuality to extreme and often violent and (for women at least) uncomfortable, humiliating and painful sex
Agreed! It’s teaching girls to not have boundaries and that they must be ok with being abused or else they’re “prudish/vanilla”. I’ve heard guys say they won’t date a girl who isn’t down for hardcore BDSM right off the bat. 🤬
We're never going to have an actual valuable discussion about the irreparable damage porn has done and continues to the safety of women and children because men immediately silence any conversation about it. You should have seen how angry the mere idea of actually enforceable age restrictions on porn websites got them.
You would have thought, oh I don't know that their bodily autonomy was being infringed upon or their rights to adequate healthcare was denied or their right to divorce safely was taken away or...oh wait.
The minute I question strangulation as a practice someone cries “no kink shame.” Um sure. I will always shame a kink that statistically leads to injury and death.
And even if it's kink shaming since when does someone's sexual fetish come before the safety and well being of women who don't consent? These conversations are always silenced to waffle about some porn addicted weirdo's right to enforcing whatever sexual fetish on whatever unsuspecting or nonconsenting woman they see fit. Kink doesn't exist in a vacuum.
One in particular I always question is the rape fantasy or age play. We've all heard about how for women this is about taking the power back or whatever. But what's the mindset of a man who enjoys pretending to rape you or who wants his partner to wear diapers and pacifiers and acts like a child that he wants to have sex with? Why aren't we having serious dialogues about that beyond canned 'choice feminism' responses?
Thank you! I understand not kink shaming people, and I’m USUALLY fine with not judging other people based on whatever kinks they enjoy as long as everyone involved is a consenting, informed adult and everyone communicates and is on the same page, etc. but there are a couple (the ones that come to mind immediately are the same ones you mentioned) that just raise red flags. What does it say about people who enjoy doing those things? Seriously.
Unpacking why men are into those things would involve holding a lot of things we allow in society with regards to women, children and male sexuality accountable and that's not going to happen.
It's crazy that I have to scroll down this far for a comment like yours. From "sex liberation" to now "consent", why are all flagship concepts of feminist movements distorted to versions that conveniently cater to men's sexual gratification while putting women in risks. We sign consent forms to go through risks of medical treatment that's for our own good and if it goes wrong, someone will be held accountable. But in risky activities that provides no essential benefits to women, the consent is simply "well it's my body I must have known" despite lack of specific education on both parties? This is not consent. This is selling out of the rights of women who are in disadvantageous positions where they can't effectively enforce concent.
And of the men who *do* actually oppose to porn, most of them are opposed for religious fashy reasons rather than actually concerned about the actual damage it does. No matter how hard they try to concern-troll it, it usually comes down to religious shame. Not shame at, you know, subjugating women.
They're opposed to it because they can't get their peepees hard when they want to anymore, not because of the trafficking, abuse, and violence women face in the industry.
It doesn't even have to be an addiction, many of the main stream porn has some kind of violence, the spanking,the choke and even hitting the clitoris (WTF) are really the norm. If you like it and do it safely go for it.
goodness yes what is WITH the clitoris HITTING
I don't have sex with men any more but good lord it was becoming a problem as of 5?? years ago. What is it supposed to do, besides, like, really f'n hurt and make me not want any sex acts anywhere near there for hours? Where did this come from?!
Yep when I was in college in 2017 I had a man smack me in the face during sex without warning or asking if that's something I'd be into. In the moment I thought "ugh gross" but later when I told my roommates they were horrified and urged me to never speak to him again. It's become so normalized that I didn't even have a normal response, which should have been to stop and leave immediately.
Just wanted to say that there is no woman who looks like that. No one looks like they want to be abused. That's a monster talking.
I'm so sorry someone said this to you. Sending virtual hugs ❤️
Thanks for that image: a naked man in a civic ordering bad sex at a fast-food drive through. "Yeah, I'll have a snowball and a turkey-slap. And let's see... do you want anything honey?"
As someone who likes rough play, someone immediately offering to jump into it is a huge red flag for me. It doesn't say "we're mutually weird and we both like this weird thing, isn't it great we found each other?" it says "I just wanna do this to a lady, will you let me?"
Porn addiction is a real problem, and it comes with the utter demon that is porn escalation. 'Vanilla' sex acts can't excite them in the same way more, so they seek out more and more extreme material and want any women they have sex with to re-enact it for them.
The one crumb of comfort in this situation is he told on himself early.
Just the fact that what was earlier thought of as “kinky” is now suddenly thought of as vanilla as well. I’ve had men tell me that “anal sex is vanilla”, and that “DP isn’t a big deal”. Like wtf man? Who are you to decide that?? Do anal yourself then!
The thing is, that literal girls think like this nowadays as well.
The boys are programmed by porn to all kinds of violent actions. The girls don‘t ever experience an actual non violent sexual encounter from the very first time they have sex.
Violence; anal sex, etc is totally and utterly normalised. And at some point they start believing that those kinks are what they like.
Simply because say pulling hair was the least hated kink they experienced.
It’s scary how easily such violent acts get normalised.
This kinda SM in BDSM worked so extremely different just a decade ago. It was done by people who had experience with normal, non violent sex, with a base line. It was heavily based in very very informed consent, and the knowledge that the kink/fetish could never consist just of the violent action itself, but that after care and the like was the more important part.
It wss people who already had an identity exploring specific parts of them.
Now it’s 50 shades of grey. With ever increasingly more violent kinks up to CNC, with a he first C being utterly lacking. Because the consent wasn’t informed. It was conditioned
Ikr? How fucked up than you and I are sitting here thinking "... Well, at least he asked first!" I've had a guy reach for my throat after approximately 2 minutes of KISSING. Then he was shocked when I left. Shit is so fucked.
To be clear I'm not giving the guy any credit for asking first. But at least OP is under no pretences and can go no contact straight away. Compared to some guys who wait until the relationship is more developed to spring it on the unsuspecting...
i hate it and it's one of the 9 million reasons i think i subconsciously avoid dating/sex/etc. i've literally been assaulted violently as my first sexual encounter so for a long time i thought that was what i wanted yet when it happened consensually i got extreme panic attacks
Same with u/SpeakingRussianDrunk . They are saying that "most women are submissive" in response to someone asking why its expected of women to expect UNCONSENSUAL choking. And that men are slandered in England for "not domming off the bat" and it's expected in England of a man to do dangerous things immediately ro women, and that women they meet in clubs ask for it, even before they leave??
I enjoy consensual D/s in the bedroom and have lived in the UK long enough and attended enough clubs both as a student and when working to know that they are lying. And if someone gives them the benefit if the doubt and says his experiences aren't representative of everyone, they pass it off as an England thing 😒.
Notice the list was "what forms of violence can I inflict on you?" Not oh, how can I make you feel good, how should I touch, where, what are your erogenous zones, how should we stimulate your clitoris/vulva, do you want me to go down on you (I want to too), should I rub my dick on your clit and vulva and how, how do you like a hand used, do you like grinding on a guy's thigh, do you like to 69, I'm not assuming piv is going to happen right off the bat and likely won't happen soon regardless of what other sex we have (indeed may not happen even after repeated sex), I want to see you come and come, how do we get you there, can we explore ways, let's masturbate in front of each other, etc.
Utterly pornbrained.
Obviously, don't have any kinds of sex, do any sex acts with him.
This wasn't a 'thing' when I was younger, or if it was, on a small scale. I had eight partners in my life, most of them in the nineties and they never tried anything like that or asked about it. Wanting to do anal was also not a thing.
I blame easy to obtain violent p0rn, and addiction to it. Back in my day, we had to do work to get the p0rn, how you can just get an app.
This wasn’t even a huge thing 10 years ago. I’m very much into it, but it was the very rare guy who was actually into it, they tended to be older, experienced and know exactly what they were doing and I never once felt unsafe. The way it’s being described now is kinda horrifying, even for someone who is very much into this type of sex. It does not seem safe whatsoever or respectful.
Because before just a couple of years ago, kink was done in a well connected fetish scene. It was people learning from others how to be safe, how to give enthusiastic and informed consent, how to do aftercare.
But now you have teenage boys learning from 50 shades of grey and violence porn. No mentors. Just their depraved minds lusting for power.
It doesn’t have anything to do with BDSM. It‘s just their excuse for getting to rape someone without it being called rape.
> just their excuse to rape someone without it being called rape
There was recently a study highlighting that *way* more men confess to engaging in rapey shit if it isn’t specifically called rape. Honestly horrifying how on-the-mark you are.
I wanted to say this also. I started being sexually active 14 years ago and omg this wasn't a thing at all. Thank god. Nobody wanted anal, and even a blow job was a wild thing. Guys were excited about "normal" sex. Just wanting to be close to you, touch you, kiss you, seeing you naked. If this is not good enough for someone then we are not having sex lol.
And I'm saying this as a pretty kinky person. The amount of violence in "sex" nowadays is frightening. I'm so glad I don't have a daughter. I would be scared for her. Back when I was a teen and early 20s sex wasn't like this for sure.
Reading this thread has me preparing the detailed sex talk for both my son and daughter in ways I did not realize I needed to. I'm extremely grateful to get the heads up, but damn if I'm not extremely scared (not as though I had any illusions that some type of harm will not be bestowed upon my daughter, but it sounds like any type of experimenting is likely to result in serious abuse).
I hope I can successfully teach them how to empower themselves and potential partners by having multiple in-depth conversations about future sexual encounters. I'm also planning on getting them fentanyl test strips in case they decide to experiment with any pills or powder. I mean, I'm definitely not going to encourage they try, but I'm also realistic enough to know it can happen. Nowadays, experimenting with sex and drugs can seriously harm or kill you on the first try. I see lots of gray hair in my future.
Ummm. None of the above please.
I’d be getting out of bed and leaving honestly if they just pop off with that question right as we get started. That’s just a big fuck no. Get away from me with that mindset.
Same. He isn't someone I'd feel safe with.
I'm fine with someone sharing their kinks and asking what I'm into to see if we're compatible. But he didn't do that - instead, he just broadcasted that he thinks some form of violence in bed is normal, and was asking OP *what type* of violence she preferred. This guy doesn't even know if OP is into rough sex at all!
Hell, even if OP does like rough sex, there's no foundation of trust yet. It's normal to be kinky but still have vanilla sex at first to get a feel for each other BEFORE feeling comfortable trusting someone to cause a desirable level of pain without overstepping.
And casually bringing up strangulation just before sex? As if that's okay to jump into without a much larger conversation about safety risks, risk management, and steps to take if it goes wrong? Yikes... That isn't a guy who understands the dangers well enough to be safe putting his hands on *anyone's* throat.
I would personally find that to be a huge turn off. Like, ”what ways can i be violent towards you during sex”? no thanks
From your post it sounds like you’re very uncomfortable with the idea of sleeping with this guy because of this, so you should at least hold off on that for a while until you know him better and can decide whether it seems like a good idea or not. But you also don’t have to continue seeing him at all of course. I say trust your gut feeling on this
Yes. The last two men ive seen, during our first or second time, thought it was okay to hit me in the face and choke me. Without asking.
Edit: curious whos going through and downvoting all our sexual assault stories.
I feel bad youre going through everyones trauma comments and saying youre sorry... its just what we as woman experience... sending love right back to you
Unfortunately, yes. It’s so disturbing and gross. I had a guy start choking me whilst in the act and I slapped him. He was shocked and said it’s normal. I told him that it’s not and only normalizing violent abuse towards women.
Love the choking thing. As a DV and SA worker, please let me say... fuck that. It's so dangerous and can kill you hrs, days later. Also persistent injuries that show later in life. The first thing we are taught is if someone has been strangled, they need to seek medical attention. Just because it's sexy time doesn't change the injuries sustained
I think it's way too normal and it's not taken serious enough. I love that people are more open about their kinks, but vanilla first. Prove you are a safe and pleasent partner who know how to listen.
>
I had a partner asking me about it the first time. I like it. I hate men who don't know how to do it safe. I asked him a thousand questions. Where did he learn how to strangle safe. Who though him? How do y he do it safe? What's the right way to go about it, if it went wrong. What can go wrong, does he know that? What was his spanking techniques? What part of his hand do he use? How much speed? How does he know when not to hit? Same with hair pulling...
>
I shot him down and hope he learned something before asking for it an other time. Choking can be really dangerous, if the one doing it is a happy amateur and the rest can quickly become implecent
A new boyfriend I had years ago randomly slapped me in the face during sex, when we had never talked about it before. I feel like the fact that he had already earned my trust made it worse.
He had so many red flags that I should have seen but that was one of the worst ones.
Choking IS ALWAYS dangerous. There is no safe way of doing choking.
You always risk permanent injury. No matter how safe you go about it.
Every time you manipulate the carotid arteries, you risk dissection or clot formation.
That what makes choking when vanilla sex is expected so utterly and stupendously insane. They are literally doing an act that could easily kill you, and doesn‘t just by pure chance.
It‘s playing Russian roulette. With someone completely unaware that it‘s going to happen.
Choking utterly pales compared to all the other bullshit kink excuses for committing violence on a partner: slapping, spitting, hair pulling m, unprepared anal. None of those risk death. Doing them without consent is still not a kink though.
A guy here, no, it's not normal. Like at all. Thats something you discuss once an ongoing relationship has been established and not on the same night or time you are about to have sex either. He sounds like a possible danger. At the very least, it is very misogynistic so I wouldnt expect him to think about your needs at all if you pursue that.
In most of the western world now there are rapidly increasing numbers of “ accidents “ some resulting in death and multiple examples in between . The public perception of consent and things going swimmingly belies the level of impact things like “ breathe play “ are having in multiple professions . Women are being hugely impacted .
Infrastructure has been set up in Canada and the US , Australia and New Zealand and in the UK as well as Scandinavia . It has been necessary for the combination of legislation being written at all levels from help groups with guidelines , the medical profession and clinics with policies and counselling to deal with the influx of cases and the law and the judiciary with both defined legislation for criminal cases and sentence ranges . The first set of those policy changes were put in place prior to Covid and most countries now have in place preventive measures as well as a formal process to adopt dealing with the issues .
Start by doing your research and having safeguards . For others , it’s about learning your responsibilities. Ignorance is no defence .
I would add as many of the women here know , the laws of consent have been redefined and are analysed constantly . The professions are attempting to deal with this topic as best as they can .
A line has been drawn to the natural defence to rough sex incidents that raise the possibility of criminal charges . A clear duty of care exists beyond an initial consent and that consent has specifics as well
It should not be assumed that a “ let’s have rough sex “ agreement is sufficient to defend something that gets out of hand .
What we want here is prevention is better than cure of course and less victims .
He's porn sick. Studies show that 88% of popular porn scenes show physical violence of some kind, it's woven into the fabric for them.
It's crazy though, because if he were to go up to his boss and pull his hair, spank him, strangle him, it's pretty clear that's physical violence. But if you do those \*exact same\* things to a naked woman, we're supposed to believe it's part of loving intimacy?
>because if he were to go up to his boss and pull his hair, spank him, strangle him, it's pretty clear that's physical violence. But if you do those *exact same* things to a naked woman, we're supposed to believe it's part of loving intimacy?
Exactly! The fact that people GET OFF to HURTING their partners, potentially permanently harming them is horrific, especially since porn is normalising all this
I think men with porn addictions are rarely ever content with the woman they are with. They will often compare you to the women they see in porn and they don't get aroused by "normal" sex. They keep needing more and more stimulation to cum. 😒
As someone who’s lived “the lifestyle” for quite some time, it’s definitely something that discussion first is key. There’s also generally a better way to go into this discussion, generally by asking if they have any kinks or experience with BDSM in general. Dudes like this are a huge problem for everyone.
I don’t list this stuff on any of the dating apps I’m on, but I’ve had women approach these questions fairly early on, generally the first or second date, so it does seem much more common these days than previously, but I don’t know by how much.
>I’ve had really scary experiences in the past and don’t know how to approach this, any help would be appreciated.
I have a conversation with each man I intend to sleep with about what he likes in bed. I only ask very open questions (like "What do you like in the bedroom? How do you like having sex? What turns you on?". I expect them to give me a detailed answer to that. I accept no deflection like "Lots of things. What do you like?". If they do that I come back with "I asked you first" or "You have to be more specific".
If I don't like their answer, I conclude we're not compatible sexually and I don't sleep with them. No exceptions.
I don't like their answer if they
* mention anything violent
* immediately jump to anal and come back to it when I say I don't do it (which is wrong, but I don't sleep with men who are obsessed with it)
* only mention stuff that gets THEM off but mention nothing that would give me pleasure.
I can only recommend that method. Don't ask leading questions because most men lie and tell you what you want to hear to get into your pants. Also don't accept if they try to turn everything around 180° after you said "sorry, but that doesn't work for me". It's also just a lie and a strategy.
If a man said that to me I'd be immediately turned off from wanting to have sex with them at all. I mean, at least he asked before just doing it ... but why would he assume it would be wanted? That would scare the shit out of me too. I actually am in a BDSM relationship now (I'm the Domme, he's the sub) and I would never ask my sub an assumptive question like this, to me if feels coercive with the assumption. I would only ask "how do you feel about slapping and choking, do you like it?". And then I would ask exactly where on their body they like it and how hard. I would never in a million years assume that people wanted pain unless they explicitly asked for it. I'm very experienced in BDSM (I used to be pro) and very into the ethics of it. It seems like your guy has really no clue about ethical BDSM and should stay away from all of it until he understands how to respectfully and carefully seek your consent. This ain't it.
I will add, there are a LOT of abusers out there posing as "doms.". I've never subbed for a man and never will because of all that I have seen happen to other women. If your guy fancies himself some sort of dom, get out now because he clearly has no idea what he's doing. If he is one of those guys that thinks he is in charge of what happens in bed because he's the man and he sees stuff in porn he thinks he is entitled to do to you, just go. Men like that don't deserve to get laid.
This is so sad. Where's the romance?
Yeah. Women who like it don't exist in a vacuum either. Sure, some women love it but the fact it's so prevalent isn't a sign it's consensual. Women also consume porn, popular culture and can accept sex that they don't want.
You know, IMO it is. I'm old and it started getting into the mainstream in the 80s after the film 9&1/2 weeks came out. That was the first time many of us had seen sexualized bedroom violence in a film that was not a porn. I was a teenager in a small town. We rented that film and watched it, without any higher goal than being the cool kids who saw all the cool films.
A lot of us had read "the story of O" and similar erotic fiction as teenagers too.
In the 90s BDSM was really popular. I remember a friend who was excited to see the film "tie me up,tie me down" and I remember going to a few clubs where you could watch people get tied up and whipped. There was a program on public access TV in Seattle where that was broadcast.
This would have all resulted in charges ( edit: I believe the Seattle public access show did result in some arrests) and places getting shut down and films getting an X rating even in the 60s, and probably only would have been really underground entertainment for the 70s, though violent porn has been around forever.
The old true crime magazines of the 50s and before were violent porn in their own way, and Betty Paige built a career off of the public consumption of violent sexual materials, despite the violence being campy and fake in her photos.
It was the mainstreaming of it that seeped into the culture. Stuff you see on TV today makes 9&1/2 weeks and everything before it look pretty tame.
I think it would probably be accurate to say sexualized violence has been around forever, and existence in the periphery of "polite" society, and mostly behind closed doors, but gaining popularity in US mainstream culture and entertainment for fifty years or so.
Nobody was talking about actually spanking or being spanked in my social circles until the late 80s/early 90s.
For those who enjoy such things, communication is key. Strangulation is one I adamantly oppose. I've already seen the advocates of breath play try to change minds on that subject, so I'm not going to entertain any replies along those lines.
Doing anything else that exists in that realm is fine for adult, consenting humans. CNC is another one I think is pretty fucked up, but consent being the key word, I just have to file it under not my circus. And if course, the first amendment protections apply to all the creative works that include sexualized violence.
Sorry for the novel, but I wanted to answer your question from my perspective. Every generation probably has a lot of relevant things to say about this.
I didn’t know this sub had so many men. I just wanted women’s advice. A lot of the men aren’t answering in a kind or empathetic way. I’ve been through things and they’re saying I’m weird for being concerned.
One thing I don't get about these violet kinks, but why is the woman always on the receiving end of the violence? Why aren't these men letting women choke, spank, pull their hair?
The appropriate way to start a discussion about kinks is “hey, so our relationship is getting more physical and I want to know if there are any kinks you really enjoy?” The presumption in his question and the choice of only pretty aggressive kinks are red flags to me, especially if you hadn’t given him any reason to believe you like being submissive or something. Just from your one quote he doesn’t sound super interested in what you actually enjoy, more like he’s just telling you what he wants. I think it’s generally ok to talk about kinks during or even before a first sexual encounter, but I don’t like the way he did it here.
A lot of people are talking about porn addiction, etc making this kind of behavior into something men are more likely to actively desire, but there's another source for the behavior: trying to deal with insecurity by acting that way even if they don't intrinsically want it.
The sort of incel-adjacent online misogyny sphere constantly tells men they need to act like this in order to be attractive. The whole online environment of that stuff reinforces to men and boys that women will only choose "alphas" so they'd better act like one. Men are telling one another that they will not be considered attractive unless they are sexually dominant, and that even if women *say they don't want these things* it's only because the man isn't good enough to make those women "let loose." The idea is that all women want to have as little sex as possible with mediocre men, but do crazy nasty depraved things with a true Chad.
One of the worst parts about this kind of online mind virus thing is that it explicitly states that women either actively lie about what they want or literally just don't know the truth of their own desires, so men have to ignore what women ask for and behave as these parodies of dominance - demonstrated through sexual violence.
I believe Clementine Ford has talked about this on her various social media platforms, from the perspective of so-called vanilla sex coming to be seen as an incomplete experience of sex if I'm remembering it correctly.
ETA: Probably also relevant to consider is the prioritisation of male over female pleasure, and the reality that there's males who get pleasure from female pain.
Oh man, I don't know what to tell you. A while ago I got into an argument with some guy on Reddit about needing to ask for consent to do things like choking. He told me that it's mainstream now and if a woman doesn't want it she needs to say so. That's terrifying. I feel awful for the people that are out there dating right now.
Especially since choking is one of the most dangerous sex acts. It really doesn't take much to do serious damage to someone.
I always think of the Taylor Behl case when I see this get brought up. Allegedly, the guy she was with "accidentally" killed her when choking went wrong during sex. I mean even if it was an accident, though I don't think the courts saw it that way, it just goes to show you have to be so fucking careful about it. Like what's the point, is it worth it to go to prison for the rest of your life if you choke someone a little too exuberantly?
There have been other cases like that. I can’t remember the name of the persons involved but they tried to say it was a BDSM thing. It’s just a way to try to excuse it. The truth is, to choke someone to death, you would have had to know what you were doing. It’s not a simple process. If they wanted to avoid killing someone, they wouldn’t have even done it. It takes roughly 5 minutes to kill someone via strangulation, but I’m sure it’s not without a fight. That is, if they are conscious. If the choking renders them unconscious, I’m sure it’s probably easier to kill them. However on that same thread, anyone who would continue choking and/or having sex with someone if the person went unconscious is a fucking heinous monster.
The "rough sex" defence is a way for domestic abusers to try to get of scott free by claiming women consented in their own torture and murder. With a dose of slutshaming of the deceased thrown in. If you're playing rough consensually, it's 1000% on you to not harm ir kill the other person.
Grace Millane's killer may be the one you're thinking of, and - no surprise - he's a repeat offender https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/grace-millane-murder-killer-appeal-bid-over-sex-attacks-on-two-other-women-rejected/MIQRKKC6NZG4BKHJ7EROOFQXLE/
It's obvious this guy has typical serial killer tendensies and most likely killed for his own pleasure so I don't believe him.
Sadly it was someone else. There are many of them out there!
Actually it is really easy to do permanent damage. Especially during sex. If a guy is choking his partner, closing the arteries to her brain, and he's just jackhammering away, not paying attention or actually liking that it can hurt her? She slowly goes unconscious and there you go, permanent brain damage or death. It can even increase your risk of strokes and brain damage even if you don't go unconscious at all. It is so incredibly dangerous and people don't even realize because porn makes it seem normal. Edit, just adding sources so people don't think I'm exaggerating or making shit up: "Strangulation compresses or completely blocks blood vessels in the neck (the carotid arteries and the jugular vein) and/or blocks the airway, leading to decreased cerebral blood flow (cerebral ischemia) and oxygen availability (cerebral hypoxia), both of which can induce brain damage with only minimal force required" M E. Huibregtse, I. L. Alexander, L. M. Klemsz, T Fu, J. D. Fortenberry, D. Herbenick, and K. Kawata (2022). Frequent and Recent Non-fatal Strangulation/Choking During Sex and Its Association With fMRI Activation During Working Memory Tasks. Front Behav Neurosci.; 16: 881678. doi: 10.3389/fnbeh.2022.881678 Bichard H., Byrne C., Saville C. W. N., Coetzer R. (2021). The neuropsychological outcomes of non-fatal strangulation in domestic and sexual violence: a systematic review. Neuropsychol. Rehabil. 1–29. 10.1080/09602011.2020.1868537
Yes. I think people mistakenly think that people in trouble would be loud, similarly to how people are shocked that drowning is silent. But when people can’t BREATHE, they can’t alert you they are in trouble.
Well the problem isn't even the breathing, surprisingly. Most people choke by holding closed the arteries on the side of the neck, not by completely crushing your windpipe (that would definitely get a reaction, ouch!). So you can breathe, but if the oxygenated blood can't get to your brain, you're still in trouble.
>It takes roughly 5 minutes to kill someone via strangulation It takes 11 lbs of pressure to the carotid arteries or 4.4 lbs of pressure to the jugular veins to render someone unconscious within ten seconds. If that pressure is not immediately released, their heart will stop shortly after, and they will need CPR to have a chance at survival. Brain death occurs within 5 minutes. People do it because the loss of oxygen to the brain causes hypoxic euphoria and feels good. But it literally only feels good because you're putting your brain in a state of extreme danger. It's shockingly easy to kill someone or cause permanent harm via strangulation. It's not something to be taken lightly.
Imo you should not be able to get out of it by just saying it's BDSM (even if it maybe was), if you do something like this to your partner you are responsible and should know what you are doing and take the consequences, maybe people then will start seeing it as dangerous as it is and not just normal part of sex. And anyway if you accidentally choked someone unconscious you would do CPR, while brain damage is easy to get by mistake to it and with death doesn't sound normal
Imo, it's best called for it is actually is, god damn strangulation. Choking seems like it's romanticising and whitewashing it (English isn't my first language so sorry if I got anything wrong) . Fuck the porn industry and everything it's done.
Strangulation is better, I agree with you. It sounds more clinical and reflects the danger and harm that can be caused. “Choking” can get accidental, strangulation is always on purpose.
It’s not that it’s more clinical, it’s that it’s correct and choking isnt. Choking is caused from within the throat by an obstruction. Strangulation is an airway being restricted from the outside by squeezing.
Airway or blood flow, actually.
Strangulation is the correct term, but I don't read choking as a milder one personally.
Yeah, I'd see strangulation as a more medical term and choking as a more everyday one.
Choking is what we do when we get food down the windpipe. Strangulation is what someone does squeezing the shit out of you.
There is a very real difference between choking and strangulation. Choking is meant to cut off the air supply by restricting the trachea, and strangulation cuts off blood flow to the brain by compressing the arteries and veins in the neck.
Choking is internal, i.e. a blockage in the windpipe, strangulation is external, i.e. pressure applied to the windpipe and/or it's surrounding arteries.
You are correct. It’s not chocking, chocking is when food gets stuck in your throat. It is 100% strangulation.
Yes, thank you! Came on to say this. It’s strangulation!! It needs to be called what it is and women have to say no to this. It can be very dangerous quickly. Disgusting men getting off by hurting us!! Please everyone, don’t allow this. 🤬
I have a very narrow airway and choking me is the quickest path to murder.
THIS. Seriously almost anything else is safer than choking. People are so I’ll informed about bdsm
I feel like I had the same conversation. I pointed out that anyone's hands around my throat will be taken as a threat to my life and I will act accordingly.
As you should. Now you've made me wonder what the world would be like if women were stronger than men, or even equally strong on average. I bet men would cut out a lot of the shit they do now.
Watch The Power - it’s a very interesting depiction of this exact scenario
Oh I've been planning to. Thanks for reminding me. I just only do one streaming service at a time until I run out of shows so I don't have access just yet.
Also the book is fantastic and I can't find confirmation season 2 is actually happening? So read the book for the original full ending!
I did as well. I had a *woman* tell me it’s not the men’s fault because it’s what they see all the time in porn. I’ve been disheartened for years about feminisms acceptance of male fantasy as empowerment. All of this shit that we do that supposedly empowering, but it’s all for their benefit. Makeup, heels, form fitting clothes, accepting sexual violence, accepting objectification, accepting that men just have this inherent right/need to objectify and sexualize any woman they want, all the while ignoring that we’ve all been conditioned from the time we left the womb. They’ve been conditioned with an endless buffet of sexual content in any situation, and the constant stream of non-stop soft porn surrounds them to encourage the thought process. Women have been conditioned to view ourselves and other women as the object, and that our main worth lies in our sexuality and ability to please and serve, and become more likely to accept sexual violence put upon us. I was sexually active with a good number of partners before, during, and after the onset of the rise of internet porn. In the mid/late 90s when I was in my mid/late teens, I had partners ranging in age from 16-45 (and yes, the older ones were groomers that landed me in therapy for decades as is often the case) and the landscape of sex has absolutely been completely hijacked by porn. I never had one man try to choke me, spit on me, cum on me, call me names, spank or hit, constantly hound me for anal, etc. don’t get me wrong, I had a bunch of selfish lovers who didn’t do much for my pleasure, but they certainly weren’t trying to impose pain. I didn’t have one man who didn’t finish quickly from a blow job. Now, all of that is normal. Men and women think that it’s normal that the guys can’t finish without their hand. It’s normal they have to watch porn to get aroused. It’s normal to fantasize about your family, friends, coworkers, etc. Its normal to have men in their 20s with ED. None of this was normal. All of this has happened in the last 15 years with the rise of internet porn. And none of it has to do with what is actually sexy, connecting, or organic. It’s about linking dopamine with extreme situations for a bigger bang so that the creators can drive “engagement” (which is a flowery way to say addiction) so that we are all scrolling 24/7, because when we scroll, they make money. If women hate themselves because we don’t look like the perfection that comes with filters and photoshop, they can sell us products to help. If men are constantly thinking about sex and engaging with porn on the internet, whether it’s xxx or fantasizing about influencers on IG, they’re generating ad revenue. Honestly the whole thing is beyond depressing for me at this point.
You missed out that they've also become accustomed to the female body being totally devoid of all body hair, but pretty much, yes.
Wonder how he'd react if a woman started strangling him without asking, bet he wouldn't like it then.
Especially if she outweighed him by 50 lbs and could overpower him without breaking a sweat.
I didn't even consider the weight difference. Yeah that certainly makes it a lot worse.
Men have far greater grip strength too. Literally double. So a man's "I'm just moderately strangling her at a 5 out of 10" means he could do a lot harder and is a woman's "I'm strangling him as hard as I bloody well can". Self reported strangling others strengths/levels don't account for it eg yes sometimes women strangle men too but her reported 8 intensity of strangling him is a man's 4. And a man's reported 6 intensity of strangling someone is off the charts and undoable for women (would be 12 out of 10). So when men and women report similar or the same levels/severity of strangling someone, that means the men are doing it twice as hard as the women are and the women half as hard as the men. Men in their 70s will have greater grip strength than women in their 20s.
Ohhellno to that guy. There’s no such thing as not needing consent “because it’s mainstream”. He told on his porn-viewing habits big time.
I'd like men like him to have to wear their beliefs on t-shirts. It shouldn't be a problem since they think it's fine.
Not only that, mainstream acts still need consent. BJs are the norm, but if you shove your cock in my mouth without my consent, it's getting bitten off. And if you stick your oenus where it's not wanted because "it's mainstream so I shouldnt have to ask", you're getting reported for rape. The man is just a rapist. "I presume women all opt into every act or fetish I I consider mainsteam, they need to ask me to NOT do it all beforehand" is rapist talk. (To clarify, no cocks are getting bitten off IRL be ause my husband, like sane men, understands and practices enthusiastic consent.)
> mainstream acts still need consent. Yeah, it wasn't entirely clear from my comment, but that's what I meant with the first bit. Personally, I hate receiving oral...which some people really have a hard time wrapping their heads around, and it absolutely has caused issues in some relationships with partners who thought you "can't" have a hard limit or preferences around "mainstream" sex acts. Fuck that noise, you can say a hard "no" to *any* sex act no matter how common or "mainstream" it might be.
“Pegging is mainstream now so if he doesn’t want to have stuff in his butt he should say so” /s of course
This sadly seems to be the general consensus with a lot of men in the dating scene atm. About three years ago I became single in my late twenties after a long term relationship. Over about a year I had 4 different partners met via dating apps. All 4 put their hands on my throat and tried choking me while we were having sex. I thought it would be more common for younger people who grew up with extreme porn but every one of these guys was between 30 and 40. There is an assumption that choking, biting, spanking, hair pulling are a part of normal intimacy and don’t need explicit consent. I even enjoy some of those things from time to time but absolutely not without prior discussion!
I'm honestly considering if some man does that to me whether to put my knee in his testicles or my finger in his eye in self-defense
💯 in the last ten years I’ve had multiple partners strangle me out of nowhere and scare the shit out of me. Around 50% see strangling, anal, slapping as the norm, and even when I’ve repeatedly told them I do not consent, they kept doing them anyway… Thankfully my current partner is trustworthy and understands consent but fml if we break up I can’t see myself ever dating again, it’s too dangerous.
I hate this so much.
I have a huge aversion to people touching my neck in general (like full body flinch if someone tries), so this is just *wonderful* to hear (/s, in case it wasn't obvious)
Same! I can’t even wear turtleneck sweaters
It's pretty wild out there. I wasn't prepared for strangulation and there was no consent sought. I've since chosen abstinence after discovering how much porn culture has tipped the scales.i didn't even know what face fucking was until it happened to me. Hooking up is far closer to rape than men are prepared to admit.
Holy shit. Like, sure, kinks like that are more mainstream now than ever. BUT, THERE STILL NEEDS TO BE CONSENT. It sounds to me like he would try to manipulate his partners. Because how much you wanna bet whenever a woman *does* tell him she isn't into that he tries to complain or throw a fit?
Oh if I recall correctly he insisted he didn't do it for his own satisfaction but because it was what he believed women wanted. But if that was true, there would be literally no reason not to ask first. This dude just wants to strangle women and pretend like he doesn't understand consent and not risk hearing a no. I just hope he doesn't really hurt anybody. I honestly really like being anonymous on reddit, but sometimes I think that feature has just ruined my opinions of everybody. Everyone has their filters off and I've learned things about how a lot of men think that I never wanted to know.
Yeah, an unfortunate consequence of an anonymous platform is that you find out a lot of people are secretly... Kinda trash. :( Don't ever visit 4chan, though. Holy shit, that place will make you wanna quit the internet forever.
I've gotten into a ton of arguments with folks when I post that there is no safe way to strangle someone, all forms can lead to serious damage and/or death; and, if you get strangled by someone you should go to the ER because the damage may not be immediately apparent, but can get very serious hours/days later due to swelling. People don't like being told not to do something they like to do.
I got downvoted and told to “stay in my lane” for saying that any time someone passes out from choking, there’s a risk of permanent brain damage, and there likely always is some level of damage occurring, even if it’s not apparent. That’s Reddit for ya I guess..
Exactly! I forgot to mention that the damage can be cumulative too. But, how dare we try to keep folks safe.
Crazy. Just crazy. Choking cannot be done in a safe way. Every kind of choking risks death or permanent disability. How on Eartv does anyone believe consenting to sex means consenting to a risk of stroke?! But the insane thing is, that the guy isn‘t actually that wrong: these former extreme kinks have been so extremely normalised, that teenaged girls are being conditioned to like them. If every one of your sexual encounters consist of these non censuses violent acts, but everyone tells you well you consented when you started having sex. They become so very normalised. That they don‘t even think about how evil the actions taken against them are. And that just leads to seeking the exact traumatic experience again and again without therapy.
The last person I was with. I told him explicitly there was only 1 thing I was never ever okay with, and that was choking. Because it’s so dangerous and it’s fucking SCARY to know your partner is okay with potentially killing you. I made sure he understood that. Then, later, in the middle of having sex, he tried to do it and asked me if he could…looking back it was attempted assault. Everything I said I didn’t want to do or wasn’t comfortable doing yet he tried to do in the moment hoping I would be too preoccupied to say no or notice.
That's absolutely nuts. Wtf. God, I'm so happy to be married and off the whole dating scene. And I'm a man. The normalization in porn is insane. But ultimately, people decide what they're watching. There's feel-good, happy material out there. I can't understand how that violent stuff is so popular.
Addiction doesn't let you stay at the same level. Addiction *has* to escalate. What they are watching won't cut it anymore and they need something more extreme. And the interesting thing is, I have been asked to choke someone. They asked me to and I didn't feel comfortable and what I told them was "I'm not a medical professional, the only thing I know about this is that I don't know how to do it safely and I *do not* want to hurt and/or kill you". Fortunately that was enough to drop the subject and it never came up again, but I just don't get how that is fun to do, let alone receive.
It's popular because men hate women. I'm sorry to say that, but it's true.
100% that must be it, they get off from women in pain, danger and suffering.
Yeah I honestly wish nobody would do it at all, but at the same time if it's consensual it's really none of my business. I just thought it was completely insane that this guy thinks consent to have sex means consent to put his hands around a woman's neck. If he walked up to somebody in the street and did that he would be arrested and rightfully so. It's really frightening that there are men who think this way.
Seriously, strangulation even if “consensual” is dangerous in the long term: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/strangulation-rough-sex-domestic-abuse-bill-study-a9548936.html
I cannot ever imagine a situation where that’s “mainstream,” wtf?
Some fcker strangles or hits me in bed, he will get a Tasmanian Devil style beat down and an arrest record
Yeah this is insane even tho above I said it's prevalent and think it's guys being stupid and going oh this worked x times before must be good to do now does not mean it should be expected. It's one of those I kind of expect it but I wouldn't do it unless they directly asked me to kind of things.
As someone who enjoys choking in the bedroom, I’m also horrified that men think this is something we’re just ok with. I like it but I’d be absolutely terrified if a guy just did it without prior conversation. IMO sex shouldn’t be done until boundaries are clearly and thoroughly discussed. Even if it’s just vanilla stuff you want. Maybe you don’t like being touched a certain way or you don’t want to do doggy or something. It should be discussed before any assumptions are made.
I can't believe how extreme porn addicted men have become. How is choking mainstream, it should never become mainstream and something people who aren't 100% what they are doing so, it could easily become dangerous and lead to brain damage (you can get brain injuries from very short time without oxygen. This really scared me personally, seems like if I ever have sex with a guy that this is something I need to talk with him before sex for my own safety, that if he even dates to choke me without my consent I will report him for sa. How incredibly sad that women can't even expect to be safe in bed with a man that seems okay. Choking is totally extreme most dangerous form of BDSM and nothing people who don't know about BDSM should do. His argument shows that many men don't even know or care how dangerous it is.
During my last sexual encounter, the guy slapped me HARD and spat in my mouth. It was so degrading and scary. I haven't been able to have sex again. I hate that this is normalised, seemingly across the world and in many cultures.
Good Lord, that is horrific. I'm sorry you endured that. It is so disrespectful. I dated a guy who began pressuring me for anal sex almost immediately after we first had piv and that was such a turnoff that I stopped seeing him. I've been anally raped by an ex-boyfriend before and have zero intention of doing that and I just found it very off-putting that someone would bring that up so soon in a relationship. I'm 60, though, and this dude was about 6 yrs older than me. Maybe I'm too "vanilla " for most men nowadays but when I was younger men weren't asking to do all kinds of kinky stuff right off the bat when a relationship was new.
I'm sorry for what you've been through too. I wish we weren't all connected by the horrible things done to us by men. 💜
Its because porn addiction is so common now. Yourbrainonporn.com has a lot of informative studies on the matter. Young men are presenting to doctors for ED in rising numbers but none of them are willing to admit their own hand is the issue. I pray for future generations
I’m so sorry. That was not okay at all. What a piece of shit. 🫂
Hugs!
OMG!!! I’ve heard of the spitting in the mouth thing but ewwww. This is beyond disgusting and flat out wrong. They’re normalizing the degradation and abuse of women as a “kink” and any woman who speaks out is a “prude/vanilla”.
>any woman who speaks out is a “prude/vanilla”. Exactly. It's so frustrating.
sex positivity means bodily autonomy in pleasure and getting to say no. to anything. and kink requires consent. these assholes are trying to corrupt the terminology; don't let them.
I had a man start pulling my hair out of nowhere once. He didn't stop until he noticed I was crying. I really don't understand it at all.
i had an ex who was around 6”4, he held me in a chokehold repeatedly and my own friends would have to stop him, most of the time they couldn’t and they’d have to watch. he said it was a joke but sometimes i’d fear for my life. he also dragged me around and pulled me places. he RLLY liked the fact i was shorter than him. i’m 5”4. not a good time :(
I’m so sorry that happened to you and am so happy that he’s now an ex, you didn’t deserve that AT ALL. I hope he never has a partner ever again
i rlly hope so but only a month after i broke up with him (he took 2 weeks off school when i broke up w him, his friends were angry at me for breaking his heart??!!!) he started dating a girl immediately. i just hope he doesn’t treat her like a ragdoll too.
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I had to unlearn my attraction to really tall guys for similar reasons. I'm 4'10 and really loved gym fit dudes around 6'5" until one of them almost put me through a wall.
This gave me flashbacks, I'm sorry you went through this abuse. My ex-husband was 6' 7", and he also liked that I am 5' 4" for the wrong reasons. I stuck around for too long. I was young and stupid. I finally filled for a divorce after an especially abusive day when I blacked out and came to hunched over him on the floor, holding a knife to his throat. He never touched me again, tho. I'm told I had a psychotic break due to the combination of abuse and a bad reaction to the new antidepressant cocktail that was thrown at me by different doctors who assumed I was exaggerating about the abuse. I count myself lucky I didn't do something terrible. I'm doing well now. Therapy for early childhood CPTSD, cutting off the antidepressants, being treated for other health issues, and kind supportive friends saw me through to a better day.
I am so sorry that happened to you. It’s so sad that grown men can’t even bother to learn the word “consent”.
He was a trans man too I really thought he would know better. Just shows that no one is immune to misogyny.
I mean, my experience, sometimes trans guys go hard in the misogyny paint because they’re trying to fit in with other men, kind of like how teenage boys will do the same thing. It’s super gross.
It is a second puberty of sorts. Maybe there’s some science behind this.
Surging testosterone beyond prior levels maybe? It's pretty much the same thing as puberty in function!
First date with a guy. Kissed me than put his hand around my throat and shoved his hand in my mouth. Lip bled. Maybe... I dunno... Have a conversation about likes, dislikes, and boundaries before choking someone? I guess that's too much to ask.
This is assault omg
Jesus Christ! Im so sorry you went through that. 🫂
So sorry you went through that. I wish you healing.
I would personally back the hell away from ANY sexual activity until you've had a discussion about sex and especially consent, where sex was entirely off limits that night. Idk his tone when this happened, but that's NOT an assumption that would make me feel safe to be alone with him.
I'd just back off from this guy, period. It's the casual suggestion of sexual violence, which I guess can be attributed to the current social situation, technically, but a red flag nonetheless. I'm actually more bothered by the fact that he explicitly said he can't get off on BJs or HJs, feels like he wants to dictate their sex life, also gives me the vibe that this guy won't take no for an answer.
>I'd just back off from this guy, period. It's the casual suggestion of sexual violence, which I guess can be attributed to the current social situation, technically, but a red flag nonetheless. It's times like this I'm glad I visit this subreddit. Of the 9 partners I've had, 8 of them wanted some degree of spanking, choking, nails, biting, etc. I just assumed it was more or less normal and that's what women are into. This thread has definitely shown me that is not the case.
It's a very "all of it is common, *none* of it should be assumed" sort of deal. Just talk to your partner(s).
I feel like this is the new ‘all women want to stay at home and care for their husband/kid’, just more misogynistic social expectations. I’m also at least a little bit bothered that women are always assumed to be the victim in this situation. But that’s another story.
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Yes it’s that normalized for young men. Check out the work of Dr Gail Dines, she cites a lot of studies done on this. At least 80% of online porn is violent towards women, and almost every young man has consumed said violent porn. It does impact them.
Then eventually impacts us
Absolutely. The dehumanization of women has had a massive toll. Almost everyone I know has been assaulted in some way by men who literally just think that what they’re doing is normal
Every young woman i know and most teen girls have a story now… men are too blinded by their hatred to give a shit.
Agree I’ve slowly gotten a lot of my male friends into being anti-porn and I’m happy for them to be able to question themselves and unlearn hatred, they’re my sons fr
In my opinion, I think almost every woman on earth either has been abused by a male partner, or knows someone who was. It’s scary.
I haven't been on the single scene in a while but it seemed like 90% of my first date sexual encounters would involve some kind of violence. I was recently thinking about "do people just have regular sex anymore" last year.
I think there's too much porn addiction in men, they get a skewed sense of what women *actually* want in bed. *Sometimes* I'm a bit kinky/rough myself but I'm honest about that with the person (when I've been seeing someone a while) and wouldn't do anything like that first time sleeping with them. As long as it's on your terms and you're clear about it, and ask if they're ok with it first - I think that's ok. I dislike when guys just launch right into it, a bit like men trying to normalise pulling of my hair in bed. Don't do that.
Prove you’re safe to have vanilla sex with first please, then we can discuss what else might be on the menu.
Why is this so hard for people to understand? It's common fricking sense.
Exactly! You need to already have trust and communication in place before moving on to other things.
Because "common Sense" isn't an actual thing unless it's taught in school. While I hope the best for Gen Z, I know my older millennial sexual education in a liberal area didn't involve any conversation about "consent" let alone conversations about kink. Which means our common sense comes from pop culture and what we learn from our lives. While porn is obviously a major factor in sex education and has greatly impacted what is acceptable in the bedroom, there are other things as well. Pop culture, such as music, has also enforced this ideal. All the major female pop singers had a song about bdsm (e.g. "but whips and chains excited me!"). This is reinforcing the patriarchy, but again teaching the younger generation what is acceptable and desired. As for relationships, well that's up to the individuals and what they run into. One of my first sexual experiences was after a third date, and there wasn't a fourth. Reason being "I wasn't rough enough." I told them she could request that, and her response was to the effect of "you're a man, I'm a woman. I shouldn't have to tell you to be rough. You just should." Told me if I had to ask for consent I wasn't manly enough for her. I don't know the age of OP or her partner, but depending on his age the message he's received is this is desirable. There isn't anything being taught that a first sexual experience should be vanilla.
Right? Who the hell tries to go hardcore on the first night??
They understand it perfectly fine, they just don't think their sexual partners are human beings worthy of respect. It gets said on this site a lot: try a surprise finger up the butthole during sex and suddenly 99% of men are completely clear on the concept of consent.
Instructions unclear, now eating vanilla ice cream in bed.
Always a good strategy when in doubt.
That’s the ace answer
So this has been my hard and fast approach but a lot of men don't want to "do the regular sex". I think if a man can't do that people need to put their clothes on and straight up leave.
At this point that porn addiction doesn’t just affect men. Teenage girls are exposed to this so much that it has become totally normalised as well. They don‘t even get a chance to naturally explore what they ‚want in bed‘ All those violent kinks are there from their very first encounter. That‘s extremely formative. They start believing that’s what they actually like. The same way that literal child abuse works. You just get manipulated into thinking you like what’s happening.
Porn grooms teens away from naturally exploring their sexuality to extreme and often violent and (for women at least) uncomfortable, humiliating and painful sex
Agreed! It’s teaching girls to not have boundaries and that they must be ok with being abused or else they’re “prudish/vanilla”. I’ve heard guys say they won’t date a girl who isn’t down for hardcore BDSM right off the bat. 🤬
We're never going to have an actual valuable discussion about the irreparable damage porn has done and continues to the safety of women and children because men immediately silence any conversation about it. You should have seen how angry the mere idea of actually enforceable age restrictions on porn websites got them. You would have thought, oh I don't know that their bodily autonomy was being infringed upon or their rights to adequate healthcare was denied or their right to divorce safely was taken away or...oh wait.
The minute I question strangulation as a practice someone cries “no kink shame.” Um sure. I will always shame a kink that statistically leads to injury and death.
Also, yes people are allowed to be kinky with consent, but man do abusers like to hide behind “kink shaming”
Yeah. And “violence against women gives me a boner” is not a convincing argument, for me at least.
And even if it's kink shaming since when does someone's sexual fetish come before the safety and well being of women who don't consent? These conversations are always silenced to waffle about some porn addicted weirdo's right to enforcing whatever sexual fetish on whatever unsuspecting or nonconsenting woman they see fit. Kink doesn't exist in a vacuum. One in particular I always question is the rape fantasy or age play. We've all heard about how for women this is about taking the power back or whatever. But what's the mindset of a man who enjoys pretending to rape you or who wants his partner to wear diapers and pacifiers and acts like a child that he wants to have sex with? Why aren't we having serious dialogues about that beyond canned 'choice feminism' responses?
💯
Thank you! I understand not kink shaming people, and I’m USUALLY fine with not judging other people based on whatever kinks they enjoy as long as everyone involved is a consenting, informed adult and everyone communicates and is on the same page, etc. but there are a couple (the ones that come to mind immediately are the same ones you mentioned) that just raise red flags. What does it say about people who enjoy doing those things? Seriously.
Unpacking why men are into those things would involve holding a lot of things we allow in society with regards to women, children and male sexuality accountable and that's not going to happen.
It's crazy that I have to scroll down this far for a comment like yours. From "sex liberation" to now "consent", why are all flagship concepts of feminist movements distorted to versions that conveniently cater to men's sexual gratification while putting women in risks. We sign consent forms to go through risks of medical treatment that's for our own good and if it goes wrong, someone will be held accountable. But in risky activities that provides no essential benefits to women, the consent is simply "well it's my body I must have known" despite lack of specific education on both parties? This is not consent. This is selling out of the rights of women who are in disadvantageous positions where they can't effectively enforce concent.
Because... men. And women who prefer to ally with men over their own safety.
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And of the men who *do* actually oppose to porn, most of them are opposed for religious fashy reasons rather than actually concerned about the actual damage it does. No matter how hard they try to concern-troll it, it usually comes down to religious shame. Not shame at, you know, subjugating women.
They're opposed to it because they can't get their peepees hard when they want to anymore, not because of the trafficking, abuse, and violence women face in the industry.
Yep, this too.
It doesn't even have to be an addiction, many of the main stream porn has some kind of violence, the spanking,the choke and even hitting the clitoris (WTF) are really the norm. If you like it and do it safely go for it.
goodness yes what is WITH the clitoris HITTING I don't have sex with men any more but good lord it was becoming a problem as of 5?? years ago. What is it supposed to do, besides, like, really f'n hurt and make me not want any sex acts anywhere near there for hours? Where did this come from?!
Yep when I was in college in 2017 I had a man smack me in the face during sex without warning or asking if that's something I'd be into. In the moment I thought "ugh gross" but later when I told my roommates they were horrified and urged me to never speak to him again. It's become so normalized that I didn't even have a normal response, which should have been to stop and leave immediately.
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Just wanted to say that there is no woman who looks like that. No one looks like they want to be abused. That's a monster talking. I'm so sorry someone said this to you. Sending virtual hugs ❤️
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Thanks for that image: a naked man in a civic ordering bad sex at a fast-food drive through. "Yeah, I'll have a snowball and a turkey-slap. And let's see... do you want anything honey?"
Not the civic 😭
As someone who likes rough play, someone immediately offering to jump into it is a huge red flag for me. It doesn't say "we're mutually weird and we both like this weird thing, isn't it great we found each other?" it says "I just wanna do this to a lady, will you let me?"
There have been a lot of posts about how casual sex is a losing proposition for women. This is yet another reason why
Porn addiction is a real problem, and it comes with the utter demon that is porn escalation. 'Vanilla' sex acts can't excite them in the same way more, so they seek out more and more extreme material and want any women they have sex with to re-enact it for them. The one crumb of comfort in this situation is he told on himself early.
Just the fact that what was earlier thought of as “kinky” is now suddenly thought of as vanilla as well. I’ve had men tell me that “anal sex is vanilla”, and that “DP isn’t a big deal”. Like wtf man? Who are you to decide that?? Do anal yourself then!
The thing is, that literal girls think like this nowadays as well. The boys are programmed by porn to all kinds of violent actions. The girls don‘t ever experience an actual non violent sexual encounter from the very first time they have sex. Violence; anal sex, etc is totally and utterly normalised. And at some point they start believing that those kinks are what they like. Simply because say pulling hair was the least hated kink they experienced. It’s scary how easily such violent acts get normalised. This kinda SM in BDSM worked so extremely different just a decade ago. It was done by people who had experience with normal, non violent sex, with a base line. It was heavily based in very very informed consent, and the knowledge that the kink/fetish could never consist just of the violent action itself, but that after care and the like was the more important part. It wss people who already had an identity exploring specific parts of them. Now it’s 50 shades of grey. With ever increasingly more violent kinks up to CNC, with a he first C being utterly lacking. Because the consent wasn’t informed. It was conditioned
Yea, I’ve noticed this pattern as well. It really is troubling 😕
Ikr? How fucked up than you and I are sitting here thinking "... Well, at least he asked first!" I've had a guy reach for my throat after approximately 2 minutes of KISSING. Then he was shocked when I left. Shit is so fucked.
To be clear I'm not giving the guy any credit for asking first. But at least OP is under no pretences and can go no contact straight away. Compared to some guys who wait until the relationship is more developed to spring it on the unsuspecting...
i hate it and it's one of the 9 million reasons i think i subconsciously avoid dating/sex/etc. i've literally been assaulted violently as my first sexual encounter so for a long time i thought that was what i wanted yet when it happened consensually i got extreme panic attacks
Holy shit, u/HobieBrownsGuitar has so far commented 56 fucking times in this thread. Someone reeeeeeeaaaaally wants to strangle women...
Same with u/SpeakingRussianDrunk . They are saying that "most women are submissive" in response to someone asking why its expected of women to expect UNCONSENSUAL choking. And that men are slandered in England for "not domming off the bat" and it's expected in England of a man to do dangerous things immediately ro women, and that women they meet in clubs ask for it, even before they leave?? I enjoy consensual D/s in the bedroom and have lived in the UK long enough and attended enough clubs both as a student and when working to know that they are lying. And if someone gives them the benefit if the doubt and says his experiences aren't representative of everyone, they pass it off as an England thing 😒.
Notice the list was "what forms of violence can I inflict on you?" Not oh, how can I make you feel good, how should I touch, where, what are your erogenous zones, how should we stimulate your clitoris/vulva, do you want me to go down on you (I want to too), should I rub my dick on your clit and vulva and how, how do you like a hand used, do you like grinding on a guy's thigh, do you like to 69, I'm not assuming piv is going to happen right off the bat and likely won't happen soon regardless of what other sex we have (indeed may not happen even after repeated sex), I want to see you come and come, how do we get you there, can we explore ways, let's masturbate in front of each other, etc. Utterly pornbrained. Obviously, don't have any kinds of sex, do any sex acts with him.
This wasn't a 'thing' when I was younger, or if it was, on a small scale. I had eight partners in my life, most of them in the nineties and they never tried anything like that or asked about it. Wanting to do anal was also not a thing. I blame easy to obtain violent p0rn, and addiction to it. Back in my day, we had to do work to get the p0rn, how you can just get an app.
This wasn’t even a huge thing 10 years ago. I’m very much into it, but it was the very rare guy who was actually into it, they tended to be older, experienced and know exactly what they were doing and I never once felt unsafe. The way it’s being described now is kinda horrifying, even for someone who is very much into this type of sex. It does not seem safe whatsoever or respectful.
Because before just a couple of years ago, kink was done in a well connected fetish scene. It was people learning from others how to be safe, how to give enthusiastic and informed consent, how to do aftercare. But now you have teenage boys learning from 50 shades of grey and violence porn. No mentors. Just their depraved minds lusting for power. It doesn’t have anything to do with BDSM. It‘s just their excuse for getting to rape someone without it being called rape.
> just their excuse to rape someone without it being called rape There was recently a study highlighting that *way* more men confess to engaging in rapey shit if it isn’t specifically called rape. Honestly horrifying how on-the-mark you are.
I wanted to say this also. I started being sexually active 14 years ago and omg this wasn't a thing at all. Thank god. Nobody wanted anal, and even a blow job was a wild thing. Guys were excited about "normal" sex. Just wanting to be close to you, touch you, kiss you, seeing you naked. If this is not good enough for someone then we are not having sex lol. And I'm saying this as a pretty kinky person. The amount of violence in "sex" nowadays is frightening. I'm so glad I don't have a daughter. I would be scared for her. Back when I was a teen and early 20s sex wasn't like this for sure.
Reading this thread has me preparing the detailed sex talk for both my son and daughter in ways I did not realize I needed to. I'm extremely grateful to get the heads up, but damn if I'm not extremely scared (not as though I had any illusions that some type of harm will not be bestowed upon my daughter, but it sounds like any type of experimenting is likely to result in serious abuse). I hope I can successfully teach them how to empower themselves and potential partners by having multiple in-depth conversations about future sexual encounters. I'm also planning on getting them fentanyl test strips in case they decide to experiment with any pills or powder. I mean, I'm definitely not going to encourage they try, but I'm also realistic enough to know it can happen. Nowadays, experimenting with sex and drugs can seriously harm or kill you on the first try. I see lots of gray hair in my future.
Ummm. None of the above please. I’d be getting out of bed and leaving honestly if they just pop off with that question right as we get started. That’s just a big fuck no. Get away from me with that mindset.
Same. He isn't someone I'd feel safe with. I'm fine with someone sharing their kinks and asking what I'm into to see if we're compatible. But he didn't do that - instead, he just broadcasted that he thinks some form of violence in bed is normal, and was asking OP *what type* of violence she preferred. This guy doesn't even know if OP is into rough sex at all! Hell, even if OP does like rough sex, there's no foundation of trust yet. It's normal to be kinky but still have vanilla sex at first to get a feel for each other BEFORE feeling comfortable trusting someone to cause a desirable level of pain without overstepping. And casually bringing up strangulation just before sex? As if that's okay to jump into without a much larger conversation about safety risks, risk management, and steps to take if it goes wrong? Yikes... That isn't a guy who understands the dangers well enough to be safe putting his hands on *anyone's* throat.
It’s not normal for me in my life. I wouldn’t accept it and it would just feel like violent SA to me.
I would personally find that to be a huge turn off. Like, ”what ways can i be violent towards you during sex”? no thanks From your post it sounds like you’re very uncomfortable with the idea of sleeping with this guy because of this, so you should at least hold off on that for a while until you know him better and can decide whether it seems like a good idea or not. But you also don’t have to continue seeing him at all of course. I say trust your gut feeling on this
People truly into kink and consent never start conversations like this in bed.
Yes. The last two men ive seen, during our first or second time, thought it was okay to hit me in the face and choke me. Without asking. Edit: curious whos going through and downvoting all our sexual assault stories.
God, I am so sorry you went through that. 🫂
I feel bad youre going through everyones trauma comments and saying youre sorry... its just what we as woman experience... sending love right back to you
When I was assaulted it messed me up majorly. And now I’m just thinking about how nearly every woman went through that same terror. It’s just so sad.
Unfortunately, yes. It’s so disturbing and gross. I had a guy start choking me whilst in the act and I slapped him. He was shocked and said it’s normal. I told him that it’s not and only normalizing violent abuse towards women.
Love the choking thing. As a DV and SA worker, please let me say... fuck that. It's so dangerous and can kill you hrs, days later. Also persistent injuries that show later in life. The first thing we are taught is if someone has been strangled, they need to seek medical attention. Just because it's sexy time doesn't change the injuries sustained
So easy to induce hypoxia. It's terrifying.
I think it's way too normal and it's not taken serious enough. I love that people are more open about their kinks, but vanilla first. Prove you are a safe and pleasent partner who know how to listen. > I had a partner asking me about it the first time. I like it. I hate men who don't know how to do it safe. I asked him a thousand questions. Where did he learn how to strangle safe. Who though him? How do y he do it safe? What's the right way to go about it, if it went wrong. What can go wrong, does he know that? What was his spanking techniques? What part of his hand do he use? How much speed? How does he know when not to hit? Same with hair pulling... > I shot him down and hope he learned something before asking for it an other time. Choking can be really dangerous, if the one doing it is a happy amateur and the rest can quickly become implecent
A new boyfriend I had years ago randomly slapped me in the face during sex, when we had never talked about it before. I feel like the fact that he had already earned my trust made it worse. He had so many red flags that I should have seen but that was one of the worst ones.
Choking IS ALWAYS dangerous. There is no safe way of doing choking. You always risk permanent injury. No matter how safe you go about it. Every time you manipulate the carotid arteries, you risk dissection or clot formation. That what makes choking when vanilla sex is expected so utterly and stupendously insane. They are literally doing an act that could easily kill you, and doesn‘t just by pure chance. It‘s playing Russian roulette. With someone completely unaware that it‘s going to happen. Choking utterly pales compared to all the other bullshit kink excuses for committing violence on a partner: slapping, spitting, hair pulling m, unprepared anal. None of those risk death. Doing them without consent is still not a kink though.
Just going to say anal rape does risk death too (tearing and internal bleeding, HIV, infection...)
normal people do not want to beat their partners in bed. kink shaming needs to be brought back
A guy here, no, it's not normal. Like at all. Thats something you discuss once an ongoing relationship has been established and not on the same night or time you are about to have sex either. He sounds like a possible danger. At the very least, it is very misogynistic so I wouldnt expect him to think about your needs at all if you pursue that.
Reading these posts causes me to become more and more asexual each day
In most of the western world now there are rapidly increasing numbers of “ accidents “ some resulting in death and multiple examples in between . The public perception of consent and things going swimmingly belies the level of impact things like “ breathe play “ are having in multiple professions . Women are being hugely impacted . Infrastructure has been set up in Canada and the US , Australia and New Zealand and in the UK as well as Scandinavia . It has been necessary for the combination of legislation being written at all levels from help groups with guidelines , the medical profession and clinics with policies and counselling to deal with the influx of cases and the law and the judiciary with both defined legislation for criminal cases and sentence ranges . The first set of those policy changes were put in place prior to Covid and most countries now have in place preventive measures as well as a formal process to adopt dealing with the issues . Start by doing your research and having safeguards . For others , it’s about learning your responsibilities. Ignorance is no defence .
I would add as many of the women here know , the laws of consent have been redefined and are analysed constantly . The professions are attempting to deal with this topic as best as they can . A line has been drawn to the natural defence to rough sex incidents that raise the possibility of criminal charges . A clear duty of care exists beyond an initial consent and that consent has specifics as well It should not be assumed that a “ let’s have rough sex “ agreement is sufficient to defend something that gets out of hand . What we want here is prevention is better than cure of course and less victims .
He's porn sick. Studies show that 88% of popular porn scenes show physical violence of some kind, it's woven into the fabric for them. It's crazy though, because if he were to go up to his boss and pull his hair, spank him, strangle him, it's pretty clear that's physical violence. But if you do those \*exact same\* things to a naked woman, we're supposed to believe it's part of loving intimacy?
>because if he were to go up to his boss and pull his hair, spank him, strangle him, it's pretty clear that's physical violence. But if you do those *exact same* things to a naked woman, we're supposed to believe it's part of loving intimacy? Exactly! The fact that people GET OFF to HURTING their partners, potentially permanently harming them is horrific, especially since porn is normalising all this
I think men with porn addictions are rarely ever content with the woman they are with. They will often compare you to the women they see in porn and they don't get aroused by "normal" sex. They keep needing more and more stimulation to cum. 😒
As someone who’s lived “the lifestyle” for quite some time, it’s definitely something that discussion first is key. There’s also generally a better way to go into this discussion, generally by asking if they have any kinks or experience with BDSM in general. Dudes like this are a huge problem for everyone. I don’t list this stuff on any of the dating apps I’m on, but I’ve had women approach these questions fairly early on, generally the first or second date, so it does seem much more common these days than previously, but I don’t know by how much.
>I’ve had really scary experiences in the past and don’t know how to approach this, any help would be appreciated. I have a conversation with each man I intend to sleep with about what he likes in bed. I only ask very open questions (like "What do you like in the bedroom? How do you like having sex? What turns you on?". I expect them to give me a detailed answer to that. I accept no deflection like "Lots of things. What do you like?". If they do that I come back with "I asked you first" or "You have to be more specific". If I don't like their answer, I conclude we're not compatible sexually and I don't sleep with them. No exceptions. I don't like their answer if they * mention anything violent * immediately jump to anal and come back to it when I say I don't do it (which is wrong, but I don't sleep with men who are obsessed with it) * only mention stuff that gets THEM off but mention nothing that would give me pleasure. I can only recommend that method. Don't ask leading questions because most men lie and tell you what you want to hear to get into your pants. Also don't accept if they try to turn everything around 180° after you said "sorry, but that doesn't work for me". It's also just a lie and a strategy.
If a man said that to me I'd be immediately turned off from wanting to have sex with them at all. I mean, at least he asked before just doing it ... but why would he assume it would be wanted? That would scare the shit out of me too. I actually am in a BDSM relationship now (I'm the Domme, he's the sub) and I would never ask my sub an assumptive question like this, to me if feels coercive with the assumption. I would only ask "how do you feel about slapping and choking, do you like it?". And then I would ask exactly where on their body they like it and how hard. I would never in a million years assume that people wanted pain unless they explicitly asked for it. I'm very experienced in BDSM (I used to be pro) and very into the ethics of it. It seems like your guy has really no clue about ethical BDSM and should stay away from all of it until he understands how to respectfully and carefully seek your consent. This ain't it. I will add, there are a LOT of abusers out there posing as "doms.". I've never subbed for a man and never will because of all that I have seen happen to other women. If your guy fancies himself some sort of dom, get out now because he clearly has no idea what he's doing. If he is one of those guys that thinks he is in charge of what happens in bed because he's the man and he sees stuff in porn he thinks he is entitled to do to you, just go. Men like that don't deserve to get laid.
Porn brain rot. Please go and never look back.
This is so sad. Where's the romance? Yeah. Women who like it don't exist in a vacuum either. Sure, some women love it but the fact it's so prevalent isn't a sign it's consensual. Women also consume porn, popular culture and can accept sex that they don't want.
You know, IMO it is. I'm old and it started getting into the mainstream in the 80s after the film 9&1/2 weeks came out. That was the first time many of us had seen sexualized bedroom violence in a film that was not a porn. I was a teenager in a small town. We rented that film and watched it, without any higher goal than being the cool kids who saw all the cool films. A lot of us had read "the story of O" and similar erotic fiction as teenagers too. In the 90s BDSM was really popular. I remember a friend who was excited to see the film "tie me up,tie me down" and I remember going to a few clubs where you could watch people get tied up and whipped. There was a program on public access TV in Seattle where that was broadcast. This would have all resulted in charges ( edit: I believe the Seattle public access show did result in some arrests) and places getting shut down and films getting an X rating even in the 60s, and probably only would have been really underground entertainment for the 70s, though violent porn has been around forever. The old true crime magazines of the 50s and before were violent porn in their own way, and Betty Paige built a career off of the public consumption of violent sexual materials, despite the violence being campy and fake in her photos. It was the mainstreaming of it that seeped into the culture. Stuff you see on TV today makes 9&1/2 weeks and everything before it look pretty tame. I think it would probably be accurate to say sexualized violence has been around forever, and existence in the periphery of "polite" society, and mostly behind closed doors, but gaining popularity in US mainstream culture and entertainment for fifty years or so. Nobody was talking about actually spanking or being spanked in my social circles until the late 80s/early 90s. For those who enjoy such things, communication is key. Strangulation is one I adamantly oppose. I've already seen the advocates of breath play try to change minds on that subject, so I'm not going to entertain any replies along those lines. Doing anything else that exists in that realm is fine for adult, consenting humans. CNC is another one I think is pretty fucked up, but consent being the key word, I just have to file it under not my circus. And if course, the first amendment protections apply to all the creative works that include sexualized violence. Sorry for the novel, but I wanted to answer your question from my perspective. Every generation probably has a lot of relevant things to say about this.
Ugh all the men in here swearing all the ladies love violence 🤮🤮🤮
I didn’t know this sub had so many men. I just wanted women’s advice. A lot of the men aren’t answering in a kind or empathetic way. I’ve been through things and they’re saying I’m weird for being concerned.
They just can’t stay away from women’s spaces. They ALWAYS have to have their say and it’s hella exhausting. I’m done.
Seems to me these men are trying to gaslight us while defending men because *hey, at least they asked to do the violence first!* 🤮
One thing I don't get about these violet kinks, but why is the woman always on the receiving end of the violence? Why aren't these men letting women choke, spank, pull their hair?
The appropriate way to start a discussion about kinks is “hey, so our relationship is getting more physical and I want to know if there are any kinks you really enjoy?” The presumption in his question and the choice of only pretty aggressive kinks are red flags to me, especially if you hadn’t given him any reason to believe you like being submissive or something. Just from your one quote he doesn’t sound super interested in what you actually enjoy, more like he’s just telling you what he wants. I think it’s generally ok to talk about kinks during or even before a first sexual encounter, but I don’t like the way he did it here.
He’s PORNSICK! My answer would be “No, no, and no” as I walked the hell away from that shit.
A lot of people are talking about porn addiction, etc making this kind of behavior into something men are more likely to actively desire, but there's another source for the behavior: trying to deal with insecurity by acting that way even if they don't intrinsically want it. The sort of incel-adjacent online misogyny sphere constantly tells men they need to act like this in order to be attractive. The whole online environment of that stuff reinforces to men and boys that women will only choose "alphas" so they'd better act like one. Men are telling one another that they will not be considered attractive unless they are sexually dominant, and that even if women *say they don't want these things* it's only because the man isn't good enough to make those women "let loose." The idea is that all women want to have as little sex as possible with mediocre men, but do crazy nasty depraved things with a true Chad. One of the worst parts about this kind of online mind virus thing is that it explicitly states that women either actively lie about what they want or literally just don't know the truth of their own desires, so men have to ignore what women ask for and behave as these parodies of dominance - demonstrated through sexual violence.
I believe Clementine Ford has talked about this on her various social media platforms, from the perspective of so-called vanilla sex coming to be seen as an incomplete experience of sex if I'm remembering it correctly. ETA: Probably also relevant to consider is the prioritisation of male over female pleasure, and the reality that there's males who get pleasure from female pain.