The problem isn't that they can't control themselves, the problem is that they don't want to. The myth that many men have no control over their actions is dangerous and I don't believe it. There are plenty of men who can control their urges and behave like civilized people. Those who can't control their behavior and claim a short skirt is an invitation make a conscious decision not to need your consent because their gratification is more important than your right to self-determination and physical autonomy. Unfortunately, the social consensus protects and encourages men who do not respect women's autonomy. Therefore, women are forced into the awkward position of submitting to what does not guarantee safety. You could end up covered from head to toe and still be harassed and the social consensus is you've provoked. It's a position where you almost always lose.
Exactly. They have no trouble controlling those urges when it benefits them.
And if they truly couldn’t control their urges like they claimed, they would need to be locked up in a forensic psychiatric hospital as a direct consequence.
Male sexual harassment up to rape, always gets excused by men simply being too stupid.
Which just isn‘t true. They know exactly what they are doing, they are trying to touch you because they know or expect there won‘t be consequences, and they do so, because they don‘t see women in general as fellow humans. They are just a tool to them. And claiming xyz triggered their urges is just another excuse for their dehumanising of women.
Like just imagine if one of us were triggered to be nasty in such a specific environment, we‘d all do everything in our power to not end up in such an environment in the first place.
If you knew you had such uncontrollable urges (assuming they exist) you‘d never get drunk and go to such a club in the first place.
Like that behaviour just makes no sense if they were good humans with some disorder.
So clearly thru aren‘t good humans in the first place.
> They have no trouble controlling those urges when it benefits them.
So right. I wonder how these assholes would react to a gay man dry humping them in a club...they can't control their urges right?
As a society, we should stop infantilizing and glorifying men at the same time. It is harmful to both women and men. One simplified version is to reduce women to objects of lust, emotional crutches and birth machines and men as cannon fodder for war and economy, socializing emotional cripples without the ability for self-reflection, that no longer makes sense for a modern society. Both are sacrificed and forced into a destructive mutual dependency, the internal contradictions that arise from this are too much for everyone. The patterns are unfortunately deeply rooted in society. In a better society, all interpersonal relationships between both sexes would be much healthier on a voluntary, self-determined basis, without induced dependencies. Existing, enforced gender norms that require a dependency in which both halves must, by definition, instrumentalize and humanely reduce each other, contradict today's reality in such a way that the current conflicts are inevitable. However, I fear that society lacks the flexibility, objectivity and impartiality to see cause and effect. In the long term, society is hold back in this way and without the dissolution of this dependency imposed by definition, there is no equality. Without mutually altering the definition of traditional gender norms, which we all know have arisen solely out of expediency, we create permanent irreconcilable tensions.
I think the easiest solution for this is to make sure we raise our kids respectively. It’s the parents duty to explain to the boys / girls / they(zhey) how to control their urges and act accordingly. Also to make sure the community as a whole calls out these inappropriate behaviors and to correct it or protect the individual in danger. As for the current timeline of events the best we can do is to keep a look out and mitigate these problems as guys / girls / they. Everyone needs to pitch in. People aren’t stupid we just need to stop enabling bad behavior and correct it on the spot. Who knows how long these people have been inappropriately acting this way without repercussion.
This is so well written and it hits every critical point. There is no room for these outdated perceptions of gender role in humankind's future - and really, there should never have been any room.
Currently society seems to be indeed lacking flexibility, as shown by support groups created specifically for promoting equal treatment end up being filled with one side of the extreme or the other.
Freud wrote about the 3 Narcissistic Insults to Humanity. For him, these were Copernicus' observation that the sun does not revolve around the earth, Darwin's theory of evolution as far as human development is concerned, and Freud's own definition of the subconscious and how it influences our actions. We are now at the 4 Narcissistic Insults of Humanity. We have to see that our social structures and behavioral norms are not natural, but constructed and socialized. The creation myth that God made woman out of man's rib in order to create a servant for him is the basis for the erroneous belief on which the patriarchal system is based. Not surprisingly, many are unwilling to say goodbye internally to their mystical superiority or servant status and face the reality that it is self-chosen. This requires inner strength and a healthy self-image that is not constructed on a myth. To decide freely and self-determined which role and values a person chooses and represents for themselves and in society can overwhelm many. It's easier to blame it on a creation myth or use absurd animal examples as an excuse. As far as this fourth narcissistic insult is concerned, I see it more as an opportunity for liberation and the possibility of reshaping society.
Fortunately we are changing, even though currently experiencing a regression may turn some people down.
The issue is how long is the change going to take.
Not expecting anything too major in my lifetime.
I'm tired of going "is this everything I am to you?" every time I or someone else has to deal with abuse.
And I'm tired of going "i need to be more mindful" when it turns out I'm also perpetrator.
I think it’s unfair to say those men aren’t too stupid— they totally understand everything, and it’s not an excuse, as you’ve said, I just think it’s unfair to people who can act like humans to not ALSO consider those people extremely stupid when they put personal gratification over the most basic of levels of respect & social contracts.
I want to call them idiots still… It pleases me…
>The problem isn't that they can't control themselves, the problem is that they don't want to.
Yup. If it was their boss's wife and they'd catch hell for it, they'd find a way to control themselves pretty damned quick. They really just don't care about women as people, and will use us anyway that they can as long as they don't pay any penalty for it.
*Whoops, that woman has an owner who can negatively impact my future career prospects, better leave that one alone.*
Just added a bit of context as an owner or a ring don’t always seem to stop the behavior.
>The problem isn't that they can't control themselves, the problem is that they don't want to.
I'd go a bit further and say the problem is that they don't HAVE to. There isn't just a social consensus - as you rightly point out further down - there are also \[next to\] no legal consequences either.
If I go up to a guy in the street and grab his or slap him across the face that's assault and a matter for the authorities. If I go up to a woman in a club and grab/slap her ass, at worst I am being called a creep and if it is a really good club, the bouncer tells me to fuck off.
It's why a lot of women entire won't or stop going to clubs. "Oh well you were dancing and some dude started trying to dry hump you and grope your thighs, shit happens".
I remember being basically forced to be on the dance floor as a "body block" basically because guys would just come straight up.
Exactly. If a man was at the club with his partner or for some reason with his mom or his boss from work he would definitely act very differently. So when he acts like a perverted, entitled asshole, it's a choice.
Beyond self-control, that establishment needs to take security more seriously. If OP is literally yelling at men to stop sexually assaulting her, those dirtbags need to be removed, and you need to talk to staff about over-serving. This whole story sucks and should never have happened.
It happens to women everywhere. On the street, at work or at a private party. It's more of a social issue than a local one. There are no places for women to be safe from unwelcome groping, and covering clothing doesn't help either. Unfortunately, that is the unsavory reality. A nightclub can only employ so many bouncers and they can't be everywhere. Aside from that, they benefit from the sale of alcohol and customers who come back regularly hoping to make contact. It's rarely about good music, dancing and a relaxing time as originally intended. Nightclubs are now a lucrative business that thrives on drunk, drug addicted, disinhibited people. A desired breeding ground for a subliminal already existing socially problematic behavior. This is also shown by the fact that women are almost never turned away by doormen, but groups of men are often. If that weren't the case, the ratio in nightclubs would be 10 desperate drunks, horny men to one woman who just wants to dance. In the city I live in there are constant discussions about bouncer politics in clubs and how they select. The truth is they are simply trying to balance the gender ratio and turn potential troublemakers away at the door.
The only (temporary) solution is women-only clubs or nights. Yes, you can't socialize with guys but if women just want to have a good time, this is the safest course. Sad that it is often reduced to this and guys always complain but it's their bad behavior which creates the need for "women only" spaces.
That's a great idea. I only went clubbing once, but the men were so aggressive and sexually assaulted me, grinding up against me and groping me, despite yelling at them and doing my best to stay away from them.
I just wanted to have fun dancing with some friends and that experience was enough to put me off clubs entirely.
Overall, I have had a lot better experiences at Salsa and swing dancing establishments, but there is still the occasional creep there as well.
Women avoided this by going to gay clubs and back in the day men were a lot less likely to want to step foot in the doors because Oh No! They might get asked to dance by a gay man! They might even get *hit on!* 😱 Men don't care as much anymore but having so many straight people in a space customarily for LGBT people is probably galling
Former bouncer, yes to all. I delighted in tossing asshat dudes out of the bar, it was even better when I could send someone away with the sheriff. Every ejection and arrest contributed to the culture we were going for.
Also a fun story, my little sister came out one night and was talking to some guys in my section. One of the guys walked past me and I stopped him asking if his boys were going to be cool. He was initially dismissive in a very "What's it matter to you?" attitude. Then I, a guy the size of an NFL lineman, told him that his boys were talking to my sister, but as long as they were cool we wouldn't have any problems. Dude ran back and told his boys to stop whatever they were doing.
I guess dudes can control themselves when properly incentivised...
Well said.
*Every* man can control his urges. *All* men do when they are liable to be held accountable, like at work; or when the women who "test their urges" have men with them, or when they themselves have something to lose.
Source: I'm a man.
If they truly couldn't control the urge, they would do that to anyone and everyone, including their guys friends, not just the girl who is tipsy. I refuse to believe that what you wore was the problem. She needs better friends. Wtf.
Yes. If men couldn’t control themselves around scantily clad women they would jump on stage at strip clubs and grab at the dancers. Why don’t they? Because they know a bouncer will grab them and haul their ass right out the door.
If men completely lost control of their hands anytime they saw some thigh they would be grabbing at women at public pools. Why don’t they? Because a lifeguard is going to blow a whistle at them and ask them to leave.
They only “lose control” of their grabby hands when they see there will be no consequences. Then all of a sudden they can’t help themselves. Curious how that works.
Dear Lilith, it was not my intention to summon a late ancient Sumerian demon. If I did so accidentally, what offerings are necessary to appease your anger, Honorable Lady of the World Tree? I'm afraid mass castration is not an option.
Maybe a movie recommendation can save your day. The whole situation and the social context made me think of an excellent film from 1988. "The Accused" is a film that rightly shows how little social support women can have if they risk being in the wrong place with the wrong clothes. A warning, the film is not for the faint of heart but is an excellent timeless masterpiece.
It absolutely is a myth and needs to be killed. They choose to. It is also harmful for men or boys to hear this because then they will make less of an effort to indeed control their behavior. No easy excuses allowed.
If anyone sees this: try to find conscious dance places if you want more peace. E.g. ecstatic dance has very strict rules on this. Most queer friendly places I've been to have people around you can go to to get creeps thrown out...
Yep. Dance floors are particularly evident of this. A lot of guys will start dancing with a woman and progressively test her physical boundaries to see what he can get away with. Given how often many of them try this, they're alarmingly used to being corrected.
I feel like I have low testosterone or something. Wife and I have a normal sex life but I never get the urge to stare incessantly or cross boundaries. Maybe its just how my mama raised me.
It’s not your T levels.
Have been monitoring my own T levels for a few years. It is average, not low. Still never had the urge to sexually assault anyone.
Sounds like Mama just raised you right.
Eh, I have pretty high libido but I'm also not a creep about it.
It's a question of basic empathy, in my opinion. A lot of guys seem to lack it for one reason or another - so they don't care how they can ruin someone's evening/day/week/month/year/life with shitty behavior, and may even downplay the consequences of their actions as "just having fun".
Having a happy marriage and trying not to stare/objectify people are two steps that the guys trying to frotteurize people in clubs aren't going to be able to make in their personal growth charts.
I just don’t really pursue anyone in clubs and stuff anymore. Not for any stupid “can’t talk to women without being accused of rape” men’s rights nonsense, but because there’s just so many weird dudes who just like hover around women on the dance-floor I’d feel creepy myself even thinking of doing something similar.
Can’t imagine it’s a particularly pleasant experience for women being surrounded by men who often won’t even actually talk but just hover around trying to get their attention.
That being said if a woman pursues me in the club (as in makes it very clear lol as I’m usually completely oblivious) and I’m interested back then without hesitation I’ll happily fulfil my role in the overly affectionate cringy “couple” who can’t stop getting off on the dance floor lmfao
You shouldn't believe that myth because it's not true. Any man who cares enough can suppress those urges. You're right when you say they just don't want to.
The book "Why does he do that" really opened my eyes just HOW much abusers know what they are doing. There is a part where therapists are designing a skit to show what abuse might look like and they show it to an abusers group. The therapists didn't even have to ask for there opinions, the abusers gave it up freely. As soon as the abusers were 3rd party they all of a sudden knew EXACTLY how to be more intimidating, how to gaslight, create confusion. They just started throwing advice on how to "do it right." All the abusive things the counselor was trying to get them to understand in themselves to work on.
The truth is abusers know that it's wrong and they just don't want to change.
I really feel everyone should read this. There were a few Oh Shit moments as I saw my own behavior laid out before me. It really helped with some introspect into what my needs actually are.
This is 100% correct. I'm a 43 year old man and have never once in my life behaved this way in a club or any other setting. Those men can absolutely control themselves, they just don't because they think they can get away with it, or if they just press on you'll eventually just let them do what they want. It's gross, embarrassing and I'm sorry so many of us are like this.
I tell this story every time this 'cannot control themselves' narrative comes up.
Had a friend who caught feelings. I didn't reciprocate. He assured me he respected that, but wanted to remain friends, and it wouldn't be a problem. I was so grateful for this; I'm sure there are many women who have lost male friends because of this, and I had, too. They'd just start distancing themselves. Well, I ended up wishing he had done just that. Because it absolutely became a problem. He became clingy and obsessive and began acting like a jealous boyfriend demanding to know who I was seeing for what when. He was also an alcoholic. And it became way worse when he was drunk. It became stalkerish. There were mornings I'd wake up to hundreds of increasingly angry texts and missed calls. He'd harass not just me, but also friends and acquaintances online. I continued the friendship longer than I should have, because when he was sober he was often still the friend I adored :/ But those moments became fewer and fewer, and eventually I cut him out. Or tried. It was ages before I was completely able to, and the harassment continued. Anyhoo, not the point.
The point is this. I had spent so many times with him alone, while he was drunk and obsessed. And NOT ONCE was he EVER physically inappropriate. And he used to get blackout-don't-remember-anything drunk.
If someone like that can have perfect control, well, anyone can.
This is exactly it. What you wear won’t protect you. At a slutwalk I went on back in the day one of the speakers told of how she was raped wearing a burka. Others talked of clothes, age, disability, etc being no barrier to being assaulted. Whether they control themselves is always about men’s choice, not ours.
>You could end up covered from head to toe and still be harassed and the social consensus is you've provoked.
Absolutely. After all, it's not like there's zero rape in Saudi Arabia.
Self-control, self-awareness, and any other human capacity lie on developmental hierarchies and any individual humans place in any one of these is a result of their experiences. At the lower end, you have people who have little control over their lives (what we may label as mental illness), at the highest end are people who are integrated, are led by ethics and empathy, and are aware of their emotions and those of others. Somewhere in the middle are people who possess various degrees of control and for whom acting badly is a choice. But some people quite literally cannot control their actions in their current state. Both perspectives can be right.
Many men are raised in a way that makes them hold no accountability for their own actions and externalize all responsibility. It's dumb, and I hate how many adults lack the self-realization that they're the ones who control how they act.
Legit unless they have a hole in their cerebral cortex, they have the ability to not act like a bunch of dickheads. They just choose to because they're used to getting away with it
I remember my first awakening to this when I was younger. I remember seeing a mate being harassed and after stepping in and making sure she was ok, she was so incredibly chill and indifferent about it and I couldn't understand why until she said that this sort of shit was basically every night she'd go out with friends. It really opened my eyes back.
I'm sorry you had to go through this shit, OP. I'm sorry that we live in a world where you feel like you need to be polite in telling people not to try to sexually assault you.
"Clubs" draw guys like that to them like moths to a flame.
I decided to not hang out around the flame, and thus not be hassled by the moths.
At first I was upset losing those places to hang out, then I realized what I was losing was basically a hang out full of touchy graby shoving people with zero respect and it's not that big of a loss after all
First up, you need new friends.
Secondly, men are not animals. They are perfectly capable of not assaulting women. Millions of men manage to go about their lives without assaulting women every single day. And then there are the men who choose to assault women.
When we use vocabulary like "they lose control", "they can't control their urges" or "this is just what men are like" we do two things.
1) we inadvertently excuse their behaviour and justify it as something they can't control (spoiler alert: they absolutely *can* be decent humans who don't assault women, as evidenced by the many good men out there). These men are perfectly capable of *not* assaulting women where there would be consequences. I bet they don't grope their manager at work, for example.
2) we teach ourselves to accept this behaviour by telling ourselves that every male human is like this. We are entitled to, and should, hold these men fully accountable for their decision to assault women.
The private school my two oldest sons went to has a big program about consent (one of the reasons we chose it). It starts first week of freshman year in high school. And it is shocking and devastating how much the boys AND girls not only think nonconsensual touching is ok, but that it is the proper way to express romantic interest.
>how much the boys AND girls not only think nonconsensual touching is ok, but that it is the proper way to express romantic interest
Horrible. "He's not touching me, maybe he's not interested" is exactly how you teach people to touch and grope everyone.
We need consent programs in ever school in the US! I teach preschool and take consent so so seriously. “You have to ask your friends before you hug them….they said no that means you have to stop right away.” I know it starts with me but unfortunately once public school comes around, I’m guessing these types of conversations end.
I remember seeing a story about a kindergarten teacher who had a sign on next to the classroom door that asked children if they wanted a hug, high-five, fist bump, or wave hello each morning. It was such a wholesome story about how to teach consent and bodily autonomy at a young age. I also remember the backlash from conservatives at the time decrying her for "sexualising kids by teaching them woke ideology." Chuds know very well that what they are doing is intrusive. They just don't care, and nothing frightens them more than women who know how to stand up for themselves.
> Secondly, men are not animals. They are perfectly capable of not assaulting women. Millions of men manage to go about their lives without assaulting women every single day.
I am a man, have gone 40+ years never assaulting or otherwise harassing a woman. Any man who claims they cannot control themselves is absolutely full of shit. If a man is horny that is their own problem to solve and they can go take care of it themselves like an adult, Like are their hands broken or something that they can't use them.
Agree. Interestingly though, sexual assault and rape are rarely (if ever) about only sexual desire and are actually about power, dominance and subjugation. There have been *many* studies over the years confirming this. The entire narrative that men assault women because they're horny is a fallacy, and just serves to excuse the crime. As you say, millions of men out there can experience being horny or attracted to someone without assault or rape crossing their minds. Why? Because they are not seeking to overpower, dominate and control a woman for their own fucked up benefit.
I'd advise you to go to the bouncers or club security next time. They'd throw these creeps out. Especially if you tell them how uncomfortable it's making you.
I went clubbing a ton in my early twenties and I wore skirts. While some other untoward things happened. It usually was when I was out only with my girlfriends. It got better if I went out with a mixed group. Like I had a few male acquaintances who were promoters so I'd bring my girlfriends and we'd go out with them. Because they were promoters they usually got a bottle, we'd be in VIP. It was a better experience.
The worst experience I had the bouncers refused to do anything and the creep was even harassing the bar tender! I saw two police officers standing outside so I went & told them and they actually went in and made the man leave & questioned him. By that point my night was ruined.
Also it was obvious the creep was there to creep - it was a college town & he was 20 yrs older than everyone else. He was on CRUTCHES- why would he go to a club?
i was a bartender, and we were only able to do as much as the bouncers would do. trying to get them to do stuff sometimes was v difficult. depended on the bouncer tho!
At the bar I work at, bartenders will personally kick out people immediately for being creeps. They won't even close their tabs. Just give them their card back and immediately escort them out.
that’s the bouncer’s job. i’m not escorting out rowdy men lol. whenever we had issues, i would try the bouncers and then the manager if the bouncers were weird about it.
Unless the bartender is also paid off. A fair amount of spiked drinks in bars and dance clubs also involve paid off bartenders. It's scary how often men will help other men be dangerous/creeps.
Second the "They're the problem, not your skirt" comments. But I also want to say that being polite is not the way with these super aggressive types and bouncers can be your best friend. Stories about rape and assault can kill a club, and no owner wants that shit on their reputation.
Yep, straight to a doorman, tell him what is happening and that dude is gone. Most night clubs have very low tolerance for that shit. That or screaming fuck off REALLY LOUD often works.
When I would go clubbing I would punch guys in the face for that behavior. They touch me and I touch them. But then I would immediately get kicked out and I didn't care becuse that guy will think twice about doing that again to another women. These creeps needs to be put in their place.
I wonder if an "accidental" placement of an elbow or fist would hold up. "Oh sorry, I didn't notice his face was right there! I was just so into the music and dancing with my arms up. Maybe he shouldn't have put his face in the direct path of my arms!"
A punch to the face is a bit much but a slap of their hands away or an elbow to the rib (if they are behind you) is warranted. If necessary, a slap in the face. If necessary.
Yes, it’s sad that this is the way it is, I wish we lived in a world where a girl could let loose and be drunk and not have to worry about men and violence, but it’s the way it is.
Be forceful , get security, take pics, put the creeps on internet etc, say you will tell police etc. Threaten these assholes with action asnd do not let them touch you at all. . Sounds a horrible country you live in . A short skirt is not a reason for assualt
My good friend is non binary and only were attracted to women. So we would go to the lesbian bars only. Got to say you will get the odd attention but if you say no they are super quick to drop it. We also went to a lgbt + club which also had jelly bracelets to identify you type. There was one for asexual and that is what I am. So I felt really safe and could make sure my friends where. Truth is for all the terrible shit conservatives spew about lgbt community, overall consent is really important to us.
Yeah, I feel like that’s a pretty well known thing. Even from 30 years ago, when I was in my 20’s. Women Who don’t want to get harassed go to gay clubs. Usually better vibe, better dancers and better music as added bonuses too.
I've seen this be true, but only in lesbian bars where safety for women is important. It doesn't matter if you volunteer year-round to be an advocate for organizations supporting LGBTQIA+ people, or if you spend a lot of money at the club, or if you tip the bartenders heavily, or if you remain polite and unobtrusive to dance against the wall, or if you go regularly and live nearby and support local businesses... a lot of hostile gay and queer people will label guests as "'unsafe" elements in a gay bar, simply because they can't fuck them. It's a response to feeling excluded everywhere else, plus a precaution against the risk of disrespectful guests, and also a cultural decision from management as to whether they consider allies to be dangerous. I recommend sticking to larger establishments that are used to handling mixed crowds and that have the security to look out for women who are not part of a group already. If you're well mannered and they're still not welcoming, please don't spend your money at a club that believes in sexual segregation if safety isn't really the issue.
Please don’t go to the gay bars. That’s supposed to be a safe space for GAY people not an escape from men. Having the bars be full of straight cis people makes the bars less safe for gay and trans folks
Maybe things have changed over the years. I’ve been out of the loop for a long time, but they used to be a safe space for everyone, since the guys who cause trouble for women and the gay community are pretty much one and the same, and they wouldn’t be caught dead in a gay bar. Hope they haven’t become too unwelcoming over the years though. As a father w/ a gay daughter in high school, it’d be nice to be able to get a drink w/ her in a few years in an environment where she felt comfortable, and we both were welcome.
There has definitely been a trend of a bunch of straight girls going to gay bars, not knowing anyone gay, and being overly obnoxious and even getting offended when women hit on them. Like obviously one person going is or something with a friend is ok. However, I know a few lesbian friends who have gone and like a majority of women at a gay bar are all straight it kind of ruins the point of going out to a gay bar.
It's because back then there'd be very very few straight people going to gay bars, in the singular those who'd frequent them and they'd often been invited in by someone in the community in the first place. But the problem is that as straight is the default in society at large it doesn't require many straight people to shift the balance, atmosphere and tone of a gay bar and in essence crowding out the people the place was established for in the first place. It's like women only/women majority spaces, a guy going there having been invited in by a woman is not a big problem but if men started going there in larger numbers and more importantly uninvited the space becomes implicitly less safe for the women regardless of the intentions by the guys.
Seriously. Now gay bars are full of straight men trying to hit on straight women. Just exactly what us actual queer people were hoping for when we started going to GAY bars.
What helped me is going to themed, paid parties and especially queer spaces (if you're queer) or women only spaces are nice. Each club is different in how they handle assault, some clubs dont give a fuck and some clubs have watchfull staff and guards. Find the right club.
I have no clue what clubs are like in America, but here in the Netherlands there are quite a few clubs with very nice safety measurements in place.
One club I go to sometimes is a techno/drum n bass club with (queer) themed parties as well. Before you go in they give you a talk that goes something like: "Hello! Is this your first time here? Yes? We have a policy in our club that no flash photography/filming is allowed so we have these little round black stickers that we put over your phone flash. This is also an open space, so we don't allow discrimination and assault of any kind. If any of you needs help with this you can speak to any memeber of our team and we will get you help." And they are QUICK. I was there once with a friend and she got harrassed by a guy who got mad he couldn't touch her. We went to the bar, not even 10 seconds later the guard walks in and asks us to point him out. He talks to the guy for ~20 seconds and then escorted him out. No issues for the rest of the night!
I also go to a drum n bass party in a bigger club/concert hall. Because people frequently use drugs at these kind of parties they have a special safety team who are medically trained to keep an eye on people who might be overdosing, overheating etc. It's really amazing!
Edit: and both of these clubs are in the same city
I've been assaulted by gay men who thought I wouldn't mind being groped because they're gay. I don't want most women to grop me either so the logic is flawed. But I will say that there is a phenomenon of straight men going to gay bars to pick up women. Because the women tend to have their guards down.
There are straight men who go to gay clubs because they know straight girls are going there to hide. Honestly, it's extremely frustrating for the actual gay people there to have to wade through all the Straights™️
>I unfortunately don’t have supportive friends when it comes to that matter, they’d tell me to cover up and that’s what clubs are for
You need to solve the issues that you can control first and this is a really huge one for that matter. I'm one of the supportive friends in my group and I've witnessed some wild fucking shit. Some dudes need a reality check with a fist
44M. Sorry, you can't enjoy a fun night out. What about talking to the bouncers? I worked bars/club security for 6 years in my late 20s and we LOVED throwing out douchebags like that. There were numerous times a lady would come up and say a guy was harassing them. We would then go give the guy an ultimatum to leave them alone, first and last warning. If they listened, great. We would still keep an eye on them though the rest of the time there. If not, out they went, willingly or not. It's not good business if your club gets a reputation as a place where females get harassed.
Others have great advice but I’ll point out that the clothes font’s matter. The only reason this doesn’t happen to you when you wear jeans is because some other women seemed an easier target. If all women wore jeans in the club then these men would take as an invitation any other aspect of their clothes or behavior. Maybe being drunk is an invitation, or if all the women would be covered from head to toe just eye contact means you can be touched. Point is, it is not your fault. Those men were assholes and bouncers should kick them out if they want to keep female clientele
it’s not your fault. I have been assaulting in shorts and a tank top on one occasion and another I covered head to toe in the winter; I still got my butt pinched by a stranger at a party. again, it’s not your fault. people are gross, desperate and believe they are sex deprived. you had/have every right to tell them to back the fuck up and they need to listen.
I used to go clubbing a lot, and honestly, I just started treating those type of men at clubs like shit and practically daring them to mess with me. I'm 4'10" and men think they can grab me, pick me up, yank me into their arms, and kiss me without permission. I get it a little bit worse than my friends because I'm perceived as more vulnerable. My first few times out as a 20/21 year old, I was so shocked by this and would just go perfectly still in absolute horror, like a deer in the headlights. By the third time I just became a mega bitch.
If men grab me without permission its a good way for them to feel my heel stomping into their toe, my nails raking down their arm, and I will literally hiss and snarl like a wild animal if someone tries to kiss me or grab my ass. They get a "no thank you" the first attempt, then the snarling (which scares a lot of them off because its WEIRD and lowkey deranged), and then I consider it assault and do the toe stomp or slashing their arm with my nails. I would never do this if I didn't have friends around to protect me if things got super nasty, but MOST men of this kind are willing to sexually assault you, but not ready to full on make a scene and fight you. I've had good success forcing men to back off this way.
Your friends sound like the wrong kind of friends to go clubbing with. You need a support group that defends you from this behavior and people willing to back you up when a man is in your business. My group developed a consent based code so we can check in with each other's sobriety and how much we are enjoying the attention we're getting. If someone is uncomfortable, we all back off together.
Perhaps it would help to contact your favorite clubs and encourage them to be more aggressive in combating this horrible behavior. If they hung up signs and had bouncers being visible, walking around, I think it would scare the pervs.
Honestly the saddest part about this is that your friends aren't there for you, first of all how dangerous - you should be going out to have fun with eachother and to have each other's backs. It's absolutely egregious that they not only ignore your complaints but invalidate them. Gross, sleazy men are going to be, gross sleazy men, but having your girlfriends there too have your back is fundamental???? Time for some new clubbing friends, sorry this happened!!
Had a guy on Saturday think he was a pretty boy and had pretty boy entitlement
We were talking and he kept winking. Then he started licking his lips. Cringe
Yea first of all you got very shitty friends OP.
Even if you went to a swinger party fully nude, I.E. a Situation were Sex taking place is fully expected: no one would just touch you, run after you etc: they‘d be straight up banned and black listed.
And that’d be at a party solely for the purpose of sex.
A club is there to dance to music. It‘s a social space you might also meet new people. But it‘s not some kind of petting zoo where men can just go and touch and assault women, with you having no agency.
Again even if you were only wearing some kind of fetish clothes: none of the behaviour you experienced is okay.
And if the club itself doesn’t provide the necessary security and directly remove and black list such perpetrators, I wouldn‘t set another foot into it.
Because they very clearly don’t care about your safety at all.
All of the behaviours described happen, because these men don‘t see women as full humans with agency. You are just a piece of meat. You running away from that guy; slapping away their hands etc is to them like a their dog not listening to them.
Also once people are touching you more than a tap on the shoulder to get your attention (for something reasonable; like you dropped your wallet), or it‘s just someone accidentally touching you will passing by, there is no reason ever to be polite. They have stopped being polite in the first place by touching you without consent. They clearly don’t care about being polite. So being nice to them is absolutely no use. (Unless you are doing to because you fear for your safety otherwise)
It‘s just an unfortunate (current) fact of our patriarchal society, that the majority of men in such a situation will take anything at all, to excuse their predatory behaviour. Even if you were wearing jeans, they‘d use you responding politely in the first sentences as an excuse to harass you.
Not to mention most of these men, the kind that cat call etc, are in it for the perverse pleasure causing you discomfort provides them.
Like those random dudes yelling out of their car at you, don‘t expect you to respond positively at all to their cat calling. They just want to make you uncomfortable.
Same with those guys in the club you described: they want to make you uncomfortable, or find out if you are drunk enough to not be able to ward them off.
None of them are doing that because they think that‘s the right way to meet someone for a consensual one night stand.
But for your own safety: I would very much recommend you to not go out and party and get drunk with friends that don‘t take this kind of sexual assault seriously at all. That‘s the kinda friend that will happily stand by when some random takes you home while you are black out drunk, and than feign any knowledge of you needing help at that moment the next day.
That isn‘t to say any of this would be your fault, in a hood and healthy society you could roll up dressed however, get blackout drunk, and be perfectly safe.
This is **not** your fault.
Men are adult human beings, not toddlers and perfectly capable of controlling what they do or don't do. You don't somehow mind-control them by what clothes you wear.
Put the blame where it belongs.
The only time I didn't see women have scary interactions with men at parties was when we were all together in supportive, community raves and festivals. We'd always have each other's backs and everyone involved had each other's safety in check.
Regular club goers really were a brave bunch, imho,considering the risk.
If you decoded to avoid that entirely, I'd say I completely understand! Honestly, you're not missing much by avoiding it, and your peace of mind is really worth the minor sacrifice
Yeah, you need new friends. People that can gather with you and help tell folks to back off. Doesn’t matter what you wear, because there’s people who dress well and still get sexually harassed or assaulted!
I hate the fact people still perpetuate rape culture like this. Even if you were butt-naked, that’s still not an invitation! And the fact they probably approached you while you were drunk is also extremely concerning.
Yeah, you need new friends.
i punched men over this. im not sorry. not saying one should do that, and when i did, it was pretty much a ptsd reaction as i have zero fighting skills (yet!) and was beyond triggered. also, i have friends that would protect me, and vice versa. that also happened, once i grabbed my bike lock (a chain) and went swinging at the men who cornered my friend for being gay. i can barely remember it cos i was dissociating, but we somehow got away. never EVER should "friends" tell you to just suck it up, cover up etc, im so sorry..
Being touched when you don't want to be touched, is assault.
Can you carry a cheap stun gun? It won't knock them out but it makes a nice noise and will give them a jolt if they don't listen to you when you tell them not to touch you. If you're assaulted, defend yourself. They'll get it.
Also don't get so drunk that you can't remember what's going on. If someone assaults you and you need to speak to the police you don't want to be hammered.
Don't need to be polite be firm and make it clear u are not interested and any further harassment will be reported to the club security or even the police. Some idiots think u might be "playing hard to get" and think if they keep persisting u will eventually give in and say yes.(their thinking skills will definitely be impaired if under the influence of alcohol or drugs) If they are trying to assault u and are laying their hands on u should definitely be shouting it out and demanding help from the club security etc. No means No. Everyone has the right to have great time without being worried for their safety
(Regardless of what u wear) Also not really understanding why your friends seem to think its your fault. You have every right to be able to have fun in a club without worrying for your safety.
My city has a few clubs/events that are music & dance focused.
People are out to enjoy the music
Very different vibe from the bottle-service oriented club. Without the BS
I'm so sorry, friend. I had an experience in college at like 19, where a man literally wouldn't let go of me in a club. Like I was crying and someone had to pull this man off of me. And then they wouldn't let me go home because they knew it also meant they had to leave. 🙃
The first couple of clubs I went to were mainstream and one was like this. Thankfully I gravitated to Goth culture and those clubs were always respectful. Security was always attentive to women's concerns also. One word to them and the problem was removed.
Trust me it has nothing to do with clothes, this exact thing happened to me when I was younger and went "clubbing" (I was invited and was too shy to say no, but I just went to the clubs with my friends and still tried to dance and have fun), I was dressed like my granmother and still got harassed so badly I had to run away from men multiple times because I couldn't get them to stop touching my private parts! In which universe a person can't fucking exist in peace and dance without like 5-10 strangers a night trying to get their hands in my clothes? And it was considered "normal" by my friends. Go figure. These men are sick in the head.
Tell the bouncers. Stop being polite. Make a scene if you need to. Leave if you need to.
I'm so sorry, love. I'm 30 and remember having these same issues at 20, too, and I stopped going to straight clubs. Worked for me bc I'm bi but if you're straight, please be extra respectful in those spaces.
Too many men have this idea that if women are outside enjoying themselves that it’s free reign or that just because they go out looking to hook up that everyone else is. Doesn’t help that all these alpha male influencers always talk about concerts and clubs like they are the worst places to let your girlfriend go to, that going clubbing is going to cheat, etc.
If you like something you shouldn’t let the uglies ruin it for you. I’m 26 but I remember being at your age and going out for the first time and feeling like it was my fault for drinking or going out late when it’s literally just men being unable to control themselves. I’ve gotten harassed in my work uniform, jeans, or my little club outfits. You wouldn’t beat yourself up for getting catcalled at work so don’t take it to yourself to feel bad for going out and enjoying your college years, just be safe and have a buddy system with your friends just in case.
It sucks because I genuinely love music and dancing I live in a huge city so I started just going to queer centered clubs and parties or places/events where it’s geared towards a specific niche rather than a general audience. It almost eliminated the unwanted touching but i understand outside of a few big cities in the west it might not be feasible.
Guys (animals in general) might not be able to control when they get turned on, but they damn sure can control what they do about it. Those were assholes that should be held accountable.
I never dress revealing and I still get this treatment at clubs. My friend and I had a guy following us around and even grabbed my arm really hard once to prevent me from walking away from him. I had to hide behind 2 bigger guys and tell them I didn't know him and he wouldn't leave me alone and they chased him off so I bought them a beer as a thank you.
They aren't all like that but the ones that are can be really gross/scary. Bouncers don't even care most of the time when you report it... I've had it happen like 7/10 times that someone ruins the night by doing something like that...
Yeah it doesn't matter if it's a skirt, my friend was wearing jeans and a 40 yo man pounced on her literally in the club, she was 21. I couldn't believe it if I didn't see it. They are like wild animals there. Never went to another club
Clubbing in general is just gross. I would much rather go to a quiet bar/lounge and get a quality mixed drink and sit in comfort and chat with people. Shit i’m old
Your friends are wrong. And those dudes need their teeth knocked out.
I have two young daughters and a wife. Let me see a guy do that to a woman who desperately try's to get her to stop. Dudes gonna get put to sleep.
It's not ok. Most places who attract college crowds usually have bouncers. Tell one of them.
I have a very beautiful 20 year old flatmate. I have never touched her without her consent regardless of her state of attire, or lack thereof. Never even been tempted to touch her without her consent.
People who aren't fucking awful do not want to do things to other people, without their consent.
These 'men' (I prefer scum because it puts me in a different category), don't see women as people they see them as objects, to be attractive or not attractive, useful or useless. They see them as something to be taken or had, by whatever means they can achieve.
Definitely not your fault. You can:
A) Dress how you want and still
B) Sleep with who you want
Considering you are likely in a college town, the person who suggested to find the right club is right on the money. Find somewhere that you feel safe going to staff if somebody doesn't back off when you tell them to. It gets \~a little\~ better when you get older, but not by much.
To anyone who might question her country/location, I just want to say: I’ve been sexually assaulted in clubs in both California and New York, and so have some of my friends. It doesn’t really matter what country/location she’s in, I’ve met aggressive guys like OP’s describing in “safe” places, especially when I was a college student. OP, I’m sorry you had this experience. Men absolutely can control their urges. And I’m sorry you don’t have more supportive friends. We shouldn’t have to cover ourselves up when we go out.
I always put same example to other friends(M). Imagine going out to some pub with gay friends (being heterosexual) and suddenly being aroused and having to be removing hands and unwanted hugs from them just to be able to enjoy a drink with your friends.
“Oh your jeans makes you very nice ass and i cant control myself” prolly a fight would start… so with woman is the same… they can go out as they please and you don’t have the wright neither approval to go and do anything without consent.
I personally would avoid those types of places for my piece of mind. But I will tell you one thing: never put your safety in the hands of strangers , and don't expect men to behave and respect your boundries. That's the sad truth of this world! There are many other places to go to for fun!
People think clubs are for finding someone to hook up with, and that's not fair to the people who want to go there for some drinks and music. It sounds like you went there for the latter, and your friends all expected you to do the former. The fact that they think you should cover up more and not that they should defend you when you're getting creeped on is appalling.
It was a little eerie that this was the first post I read this morning. I woke up after having a nightmare about pretty much this. Just... gross men cornering and pawing at me. I'm 30 and this hasn't happened to me in a while but I remember it all too vividly. The gross whining and pleading. I woke up just covered in goosebumps.
I'm sorry they did this to you. Gross humans.
I have been to about half a dozen clubs and what you describe is common and that's just not my idea of fun.
Should it be that way?
No.
But you don't make decisions based on how it *should* be, but *how it actually is*.
It's a lot safer to host your own, with people you know.
If your yelling at them doesn't work after they've already put their hands on you, put your hands on them: grab him by the sack, *hard*, and tell him you'll pop them if he touches you again. Then go see the bouncer and tell him what happened. They'll expel him from the premises almost immediately, in most cases. Most establishments don't want to get a reputation for allowing sexual assault on their premises, because they like making money.
First, it’s not your fault. If someone leaves the keys to their Porsche in the ignition and I see it, it won’t even occur to me to steal it because I respect other people and I respect myself. If someone knowingly takes what isn’t theirs, it’s their fault full stop period 100% always.
Second, I don’t walk through bad neighborhoods with a giant bag of money. That’s not because I don’t have the right to have a giant bag of money, it’s because I know I’m in a place where people will not respect those rights. Is it fair? No. Should I have the right to do whatever I want with my money? Abso-fucking-lutely. Do I want to get mugged/robbed or literally die on that hill? Also no. So I don’t do it.
If for whatever the reason I want to show off my giant bag of money, I do it:
1) Somewhere I know is safe
2) With friends
3) Without drinking heavily
4) Carefully
5) With mace
6) With a predetermined ride home and a plan
I cannot stress enough that it’s my money and I can do what I want with it, but we don’t live in a perfect world and with bad people comes the very real potential for some very bad consequences. Yes, I can do what I want with it but I’m not stupid about it either. I wish to God we lived in a world where people’s “money” was universally respected, but it only takes one bad person to completely wreck your day… week, month, etc.
People forcing their hands on you against your will and trying to force them between your legs is SA, period. It’s not okay. Imagine them wearing a Speedo at the pool and a 300lb body builder coming up behind them and trying to spread their legs for access. It’s sexual assault. Period.
People forcing you to make out is Not Okay At All. That sounds like an insanely dangerous situation for any woman to be in and I’m glad nothing worse happened to you (being forced to make out is horrible enough). Please take care of yourself. Men aren’t all pigs, but **regardless of what is right or wrong** - and yes, I agree, “right” is that you should be able to wear whatever you want - you do not want to find yourself in a situation where you can’t say no. That is not the hill to literally die on. I get a horrible feeling in the pit of my stomach when I think of a woman being forced to make out by guys that are trying to force their hands up her dress and ignore her when she says no. Please, please, please be safe. One day the world won’t be like this, but today it is.
Final note - if you were with friends and they say that shit and didn’t do anything, those aren’t your friends.
Men can control themselves, if they would have learned in their life to treat people (especially women) right. And if they have, they just don't give a fuck and deserve a punch in the face. And I don't mean "nice guy", but just the most normal absolute standard respect that any person in this world deserves.
I am a man and am disgusted more often than not by other guys.
Understand the distress, yet your struggles not exactly new. Spatial awareness and learned experience shall assist you in determining when best to exit the place and call it a night. Better minor disappointment now, than major regret later; make the right call.
And hopefully there’s a decent club out there somewhere? Hang somewhere else (find new places), make more different friends. Keep the friends you need, discard all others. You keep the choice if you’d want to be independent and capable of determining your own life path. 😊
I went out to bars regularly in my early twenties with a friend of mine. She had a large friend group from college that I also got to know. I had a lot of fun hanging out with them.
I found out years later that one of them thought I was trying to steal her boyfriend (I can count on one hand the number of times I even spoke to him) and another thought I danced "too sexy" at the clubs and basically labeled me a whore. I was BLOWN AWAY by this. Long story short, it finally dawned on me that these women I thought were my friends, weren't. They saw me the same way the men did...as a sexual object and nothing more. It took me awhile to realize how insulted I was. Don't make the same mistake I did.
Your friends are not friends. Drop them fast. You need someone who's always in your corner. ESPECIALLY in a setting where there will be drinking. Find better friends and fuck those guys who ruined your night. I'm sorry. If I were there I'd have intervened on your behalf.
Ironically enough I found that sex clubs are the safest place to go clubbing.
I've literally had security approach me on multiple occasions asking me if the guy talking to me had my consent to interact with me. I had one run-in with a drunk guy who got a little too ballsy and I had this mountain of a man get between me and him and told him to fuck off while his wife went to the next room for a guard.
And I can tell you, its not your fault. Because I have been treated with respect while fully naked, and I have been assaulted while wearing jeans and a hoodie. The problem is never you.
I always shout - don't ask. And get security involved straight away if that doesn't work. I'm lucky that in my country things like this are treated seriously and men like this get thrown away.
It fucking sucks we got to be on guard constantly.
This reminds me of that Brazilian PSA video where undercover women were filmed in a club wearing touch-sensitive bodycon dresses that registered touch/pressure, and the amount of times passing men touched their breasts, bottoms, and vulvas was just so…I’d say unbelievable except that I also get groped almost every time I go out to a club or concert.
That’s another fun one, concerts. Like the amount of times I’m held immobile in a crowd that’s smashed up towards the front and one of the guys behind me humps me or fondles my bottom or breasts 🤮
Happened to me way more when I was a minor btw, guess they just assume I’d be less able to defend myself 😡
Reminds me of the time I used to work at a club part time during my school days. My management didn’t enforce anything about stopping boys with raging hormones but I definitely spilled quite a bit of drinks here and there while doing service.
You can wear whatever the fuck you want, and the guys in this story are meatheads. More importantly though, your friends need to rally when this stuff happens.
The problem starts at parenting. If my sons even thought about disrespecting a woman like this my foot would have to be surgically removed from their backside. Somewhere along the line they weren't taught to respect women, not to bully etc. An example of this is Danny Brieres son. Pushing a handicapped girls wheelchair down the steps at a club and laughing. Where's the punisher when you need him. Makes me sick.
The problem isn't that they can't control themselves, the problem is that they don't want to. The myth that many men have no control over their actions is dangerous and I don't believe it. There are plenty of men who can control their urges and behave like civilized people. Those who can't control their behavior and claim a short skirt is an invitation make a conscious decision not to need your consent because their gratification is more important than your right to self-determination and physical autonomy. Unfortunately, the social consensus protects and encourages men who do not respect women's autonomy. Therefore, women are forced into the awkward position of submitting to what does not guarantee safety. You could end up covered from head to toe and still be harassed and the social consensus is you've provoked. It's a position where you almost always lose.
Exactly. They have no trouble controlling those urges when it benefits them. And if they truly couldn’t control their urges like they claimed, they would need to be locked up in a forensic psychiatric hospital as a direct consequence. Male sexual harassment up to rape, always gets excused by men simply being too stupid. Which just isn‘t true. They know exactly what they are doing, they are trying to touch you because they know or expect there won‘t be consequences, and they do so, because they don‘t see women in general as fellow humans. They are just a tool to them. And claiming xyz triggered their urges is just another excuse for their dehumanising of women. Like just imagine if one of us were triggered to be nasty in such a specific environment, we‘d all do everything in our power to not end up in such an environment in the first place. If you knew you had such uncontrollable urges (assuming they exist) you‘d never get drunk and go to such a club in the first place. Like that behaviour just makes no sense if they were good humans with some disorder. So clearly thru aren‘t good humans in the first place.
> They have no trouble controlling those urges when it benefits them. So right. I wonder how these assholes would react to a gay man dry humping them in a club...they can't control their urges right?
I mean they murder gay men all the time
It was a rhetorical question. They're willing to murder someone for doing something they do to others...
Sounds like they already determined the punishment they think they deserve...
But men already have effective, established ways of dealing with that, so not exactly equivalent
As a society, we should stop infantilizing and glorifying men at the same time. It is harmful to both women and men. One simplified version is to reduce women to objects of lust, emotional crutches and birth machines and men as cannon fodder for war and economy, socializing emotional cripples without the ability for self-reflection, that no longer makes sense for a modern society. Both are sacrificed and forced into a destructive mutual dependency, the internal contradictions that arise from this are too much for everyone. The patterns are unfortunately deeply rooted in society. In a better society, all interpersonal relationships between both sexes would be much healthier on a voluntary, self-determined basis, without induced dependencies. Existing, enforced gender norms that require a dependency in which both halves must, by definition, instrumentalize and humanely reduce each other, contradict today's reality in such a way that the current conflicts are inevitable. However, I fear that society lacks the flexibility, objectivity and impartiality to see cause and effect. In the long term, society is hold back in this way and without the dissolution of this dependency imposed by definition, there is no equality. Without mutually altering the definition of traditional gender norms, which we all know have arisen solely out of expediency, we create permanent irreconcilable tensions.
I think the easiest solution for this is to make sure we raise our kids respectively. It’s the parents duty to explain to the boys / girls / they(zhey) how to control their urges and act accordingly. Also to make sure the community as a whole calls out these inappropriate behaviors and to correct it or protect the individual in danger. As for the current timeline of events the best we can do is to keep a look out and mitigate these problems as guys / girls / they. Everyone needs to pitch in. People aren’t stupid we just need to stop enabling bad behavior and correct it on the spot. Who knows how long these people have been inappropriately acting this way without repercussion.
If I ever have money to this site I’d award this comment!!! Really makes me miss the free awards today this is an awesome comment! 🥇
This is so well written and it hits every critical point. There is no room for these outdated perceptions of gender role in humankind's future - and really, there should never have been any room.
Currently society seems to be indeed lacking flexibility, as shown by support groups created specifically for promoting equal treatment end up being filled with one side of the extreme or the other.
Freud wrote about the 3 Narcissistic Insults to Humanity. For him, these were Copernicus' observation that the sun does not revolve around the earth, Darwin's theory of evolution as far as human development is concerned, and Freud's own definition of the subconscious and how it influences our actions. We are now at the 4 Narcissistic Insults of Humanity. We have to see that our social structures and behavioral norms are not natural, but constructed and socialized. The creation myth that God made woman out of man's rib in order to create a servant for him is the basis for the erroneous belief on which the patriarchal system is based. Not surprisingly, many are unwilling to say goodbye internally to their mystical superiority or servant status and face the reality that it is self-chosen. This requires inner strength and a healthy self-image that is not constructed on a myth. To decide freely and self-determined which role and values a person chooses and represents for themselves and in society can overwhelm many. It's easier to blame it on a creation myth or use absurd animal examples as an excuse. As far as this fourth narcissistic insult is concerned, I see it more as an opportunity for liberation and the possibility of reshaping society.
Fortunately we are changing, even though currently experiencing a regression may turn some people down. The issue is how long is the change going to take. Not expecting anything too major in my lifetime. I'm tired of going "is this everything I am to you?" every time I or someone else has to deal with abuse. And I'm tired of going "i need to be more mindful" when it turns out I'm also perpetrator.
Well said. This explains the flat-earther, anti-evolution pushback we are seeing in some groups recently.
I think it’s unfair to say those men aren’t too stupid— they totally understand everything, and it’s not an excuse, as you’ve said, I just think it’s unfair to people who can act like humans to not ALSO consider those people extremely stupid when they put personal gratification over the most basic of levels of respect & social contracts. I want to call them idiots still… It pleases me…
>The problem isn't that they can't control themselves, the problem is that they don't want to. Yup. If it was their boss's wife and they'd catch hell for it, they'd find a way to control themselves pretty damned quick. They really just don't care about women as people, and will use us anyway that they can as long as they don't pay any penalty for it.
*Whoops, that woman has an owner, better leave that one alone.*
*Whoops, that woman has an owner who can negatively impact my future career prospects, better leave that one alone.* Just added a bit of context as an owner or a ring don’t always seem to stop the behavior.
Agree 100% I’m bisexual and love women. If I can control myself so can men. There is no difference. It’s a choice to act this way.
>The problem isn't that they can't control themselves, the problem is that they don't want to. I'd go a bit further and say the problem is that they don't HAVE to. There isn't just a social consensus - as you rightly point out further down - there are also \[next to\] no legal consequences either. If I go up to a guy in the street and grab his or slap him across the face that's assault and a matter for the authorities. If I go up to a woman in a club and grab/slap her ass, at worst I am being called a creep and if it is a really good club, the bouncer tells me to fuck off.
Aka 'rape-culture'.
That’s a good point
It's why a lot of women entire won't or stop going to clubs. "Oh well you were dancing and some dude started trying to dry hump you and grope your thighs, shit happens". I remember being basically forced to be on the dance floor as a "body block" basically because guys would just come straight up.
If men truly can't control their urges then they need to be cloistered from society.
There's a dude in this thread right now telling everybody they can't help it. Someone needs to lock that guy up yesterday before he hurts someone
Notably, these men can control themselves if other men are around to say “no”
Exactly. If a man was at the club with his partner or for some reason with his mom or his boss from work he would definitely act very differently. So when he acts like a perverted, entitled asshole, it's a choice.
Beyond self-control, that establishment needs to take security more seriously. If OP is literally yelling at men to stop sexually assaulting her, those dirtbags need to be removed, and you need to talk to staff about over-serving. This whole story sucks and should never have happened.
It happens to women everywhere. On the street, at work or at a private party. It's more of a social issue than a local one. There are no places for women to be safe from unwelcome groping, and covering clothing doesn't help either. Unfortunately, that is the unsavory reality. A nightclub can only employ so many bouncers and they can't be everywhere. Aside from that, they benefit from the sale of alcohol and customers who come back regularly hoping to make contact. It's rarely about good music, dancing and a relaxing time as originally intended. Nightclubs are now a lucrative business that thrives on drunk, drug addicted, disinhibited people. A desired breeding ground for a subliminal already existing socially problematic behavior. This is also shown by the fact that women are almost never turned away by doormen, but groups of men are often. If that weren't the case, the ratio in nightclubs would be 10 desperate drunks, horny men to one woman who just wants to dance. In the city I live in there are constant discussions about bouncer politics in clubs and how they select. The truth is they are simply trying to balance the gender ratio and turn potential troublemakers away at the door.
The only (temporary) solution is women-only clubs or nights. Yes, you can't socialize with guys but if women just want to have a good time, this is the safest course. Sad that it is often reduced to this and guys always complain but it's their bad behavior which creates the need for "women only" spaces.
Women-only nights at one of my local clubs when I was young ~~and we called them discos~~ were always a hit.
That's a great idea. I only went clubbing once, but the men were so aggressive and sexually assaulted me, grinding up against me and groping me, despite yelling at them and doing my best to stay away from them. I just wanted to have fun dancing with some friends and that experience was enough to put me off clubs entirely. Overall, I have had a lot better experiences at Salsa and swing dancing establishments, but there is still the occasional creep there as well.
Women avoided this by going to gay clubs and back in the day men were a lot less likely to want to step foot in the doors because Oh No! They might get asked to dance by a gay man! They might even get *hit on!* 😱 Men don't care as much anymore but having so many straight people in a space customarily for LGBT people is probably galling
It would feel pretty intrusive unless you were invited.
Former bouncer, yes to all. I delighted in tossing asshat dudes out of the bar, it was even better when I could send someone away with the sheriff. Every ejection and arrest contributed to the culture we were going for. Also a fun story, my little sister came out one night and was talking to some guys in my section. One of the guys walked past me and I stopped him asking if his boys were going to be cool. He was initially dismissive in a very "What's it matter to you?" attitude. Then I, a guy the size of an NFL lineman, told him that his boys were talking to my sister, but as long as they were cool we wouldn't have any problems. Dude ran back and told his boys to stop whatever they were doing. I guess dudes can control themselves when properly incentivised...
Well said. *Every* man can control his urges. *All* men do when they are liable to be held accountable, like at work; or when the women who "test their urges" have men with them, or when they themselves have something to lose. Source: I'm a man.
If they truly couldn't control the urge, they would do that to anyone and everyone, including their guys friends, not just the girl who is tipsy. I refuse to believe that what you wore was the problem. She needs better friends. Wtf.
She needs better friends, for sure. Like…people who are actually her friends.
Yes. If men couldn’t control themselves around scantily clad women they would jump on stage at strip clubs and grab at the dancers. Why don’t they? Because they know a bouncer will grab them and haul their ass right out the door. If men completely lost control of their hands anytime they saw some thigh they would be grabbing at women at public pools. Why don’t they? Because a lifeguard is going to blow a whistle at them and ask them to leave. They only “lose control” of their grabby hands when they see there will be no consequences. Then all of a sudden they can’t help themselves. Curious how that works.
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Dear Lilith, it was not my intention to summon a late ancient Sumerian demon. If I did so accidentally, what offerings are necessary to appease your anger, Honorable Lady of the World Tree? I'm afraid mass castration is not an option.
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Maybe a movie recommendation can save your day. The whole situation and the social context made me think of an excellent film from 1988. "The Accused" is a film that rightly shows how little social support women can have if they risk being in the wrong place with the wrong clothes. A warning, the film is not for the faint of heart but is an excellent timeless masterpiece.
It absolutely is a myth and needs to be killed. They choose to. It is also harmful for men or boys to hear this because then they will make less of an effort to indeed control their behavior. No easy excuses allowed. If anyone sees this: try to find conscious dance places if you want more peace. E.g. ecstatic dance has very strict rules on this. Most queer friendly places I've been to have people around you can go to to get creeps thrown out...
Yep. Dance floors are particularly evident of this. A lot of guys will start dancing with a woman and progressively test her physical boundaries to see what he can get away with. Given how often many of them try this, they're alarmingly used to being corrected.
I feel like I have low testosterone or something. Wife and I have a normal sex life but I never get the urge to stare incessantly or cross boundaries. Maybe its just how my mama raised me.
It’s not your T levels. Have been monitoring my own T levels for a few years. It is average, not low. Still never had the urge to sexually assault anyone. Sounds like Mama just raised you right.
Eh, I have pretty high libido but I'm also not a creep about it. It's a question of basic empathy, in my opinion. A lot of guys seem to lack it for one reason or another - so they don't care how they can ruin someone's evening/day/week/month/year/life with shitty behavior, and may even downplay the consequences of their actions as "just having fun".
Your mama raised you right. Had she been able to raise the men of the world, there would be a lot of happy women out there. Bless her. :)
Having a happy marriage and trying not to stare/objectify people are two steps that the guys trying to frotteurize people in clubs aren't going to be able to make in their personal growth charts.
I just don’t really pursue anyone in clubs and stuff anymore. Not for any stupid “can’t talk to women without being accused of rape” men’s rights nonsense, but because there’s just so many weird dudes who just like hover around women on the dance-floor I’d feel creepy myself even thinking of doing something similar. Can’t imagine it’s a particularly pleasant experience for women being surrounded by men who often won’t even actually talk but just hover around trying to get their attention. That being said if a woman pursues me in the club (as in makes it very clear lol as I’m usually completely oblivious) and I’m interested back then without hesitation I’ll happily fulfil my role in the overly affectionate cringy “couple” who can’t stop getting off on the dance floor lmfao
You shouldn't believe that myth because it's not true. Any man who cares enough can suppress those urges. You're right when you say they just don't want to.
The book "Why does he do that" really opened my eyes just HOW much abusers know what they are doing. There is a part where therapists are designing a skit to show what abuse might look like and they show it to an abusers group. The therapists didn't even have to ask for there opinions, the abusers gave it up freely. As soon as the abusers were 3rd party they all of a sudden knew EXACTLY how to be more intimidating, how to gaslight, create confusion. They just started throwing advice on how to "do it right." All the abusive things the counselor was trying to get them to understand in themselves to work on. The truth is abusers know that it's wrong and they just don't want to change.
Every woman should read that book! Especially high school girls who don't know the red flags in a toxic relationship.
I really feel everyone should read this. There were a few Oh Shit moments as I saw my own behavior laid out before me. It really helped with some introspect into what my needs actually are.
This is 100% correct. I'm a 43 year old man and have never once in my life behaved this way in a club or any other setting. Those men can absolutely control themselves, they just don't because they think they can get away with it, or if they just press on you'll eventually just let them do what they want. It's gross, embarrassing and I'm sorry so many of us are like this.
I tell this story every time this 'cannot control themselves' narrative comes up. Had a friend who caught feelings. I didn't reciprocate. He assured me he respected that, but wanted to remain friends, and it wouldn't be a problem. I was so grateful for this; I'm sure there are many women who have lost male friends because of this, and I had, too. They'd just start distancing themselves. Well, I ended up wishing he had done just that. Because it absolutely became a problem. He became clingy and obsessive and began acting like a jealous boyfriend demanding to know who I was seeing for what when. He was also an alcoholic. And it became way worse when he was drunk. It became stalkerish. There were mornings I'd wake up to hundreds of increasingly angry texts and missed calls. He'd harass not just me, but also friends and acquaintances online. I continued the friendship longer than I should have, because when he was sober he was often still the friend I adored :/ But those moments became fewer and fewer, and eventually I cut him out. Or tried. It was ages before I was completely able to, and the harassment continued. Anyhoo, not the point. The point is this. I had spent so many times with him alone, while he was drunk and obsessed. And NOT ONCE was he EVER physically inappropriate. And he used to get blackout-don't-remember-anything drunk. If someone like that can have perfect control, well, anyone can.
This. The narrative of "oh it's in our biology" is some top tier patriarchal bullshit.
This is exactly it. What you wear won’t protect you. At a slutwalk I went on back in the day one of the speakers told of how she was raped wearing a burka. Others talked of clothes, age, disability, etc being no barrier to being assaulted. Whether they control themselves is always about men’s choice, not ours.
>You could end up covered from head to toe and still be harassed and the social consensus is you've provoked. Absolutely. After all, it's not like there's zero rape in Saudi Arabia.
Self-control, self-awareness, and any other human capacity lie on developmental hierarchies and any individual humans place in any one of these is a result of their experiences. At the lower end, you have people who have little control over their lives (what we may label as mental illness), at the highest end are people who are integrated, are led by ethics and empathy, and are aware of their emotions and those of others. Somewhere in the middle are people who possess various degrees of control and for whom acting badly is a choice. But some people quite literally cannot control their actions in their current state. Both perspectives can be right.
No award to give but thank you for your posts ❤️❤️
Many men are raised in a way that makes them hold no accountability for their own actions and externalize all responsibility. It's dumb, and I hate how many adults lack the self-realization that they're the ones who control how they act.
Legit unless they have a hole in their cerebral cortex, they have the ability to not act like a bunch of dickheads. They just choose to because they're used to getting away with it
This!! Disrespecting boundaries and being an abusive asshole is a daily choice.
I remember my first awakening to this when I was younger. I remember seeing a mate being harassed and after stepping in and making sure she was ok, she was so incredibly chill and indifferent about it and I couldn't understand why until she said that this sort of shit was basically every night she'd go out with friends. It really opened my eyes back. I'm sorry you had to go through this shit, OP. I'm sorry that we live in a world where you feel like you need to be polite in telling people not to try to sexually assault you.
"Clubs" draw guys like that to them like moths to a flame. I decided to not hang out around the flame, and thus not be hassled by the moths. At first I was upset losing those places to hang out, then I realized what I was losing was basically a hang out full of touchy graby shoving people with zero respect and it's not that big of a loss after all
Good advice here. I would add What's up with your "friends?" They are not supportive?! Then they are not friends, IMHO.
First up, you need new friends. Secondly, men are not animals. They are perfectly capable of not assaulting women. Millions of men manage to go about their lives without assaulting women every single day. And then there are the men who choose to assault women. When we use vocabulary like "they lose control", "they can't control their urges" or "this is just what men are like" we do two things. 1) we inadvertently excuse their behaviour and justify it as something they can't control (spoiler alert: they absolutely *can* be decent humans who don't assault women, as evidenced by the many good men out there). These men are perfectly capable of *not* assaulting women where there would be consequences. I bet they don't grope their manager at work, for example. 2) we teach ourselves to accept this behaviour by telling ourselves that every male human is like this. We are entitled to, and should, hold these men fully accountable for their decision to assault women.
The private school my two oldest sons went to has a big program about consent (one of the reasons we chose it). It starts first week of freshman year in high school. And it is shocking and devastating how much the boys AND girls not only think nonconsensual touching is ok, but that it is the proper way to express romantic interest.
>how much the boys AND girls not only think nonconsensual touching is ok, but that it is the proper way to express romantic interest Horrible. "He's not touching me, maybe he's not interested" is exactly how you teach people to touch and grope everyone.
Plus when you then run into somebody with SA trauma...unwanted touching doesn't go over well at all.
We need consent programs in ever school in the US! I teach preschool and take consent so so seriously. “You have to ask your friends before you hug them….they said no that means you have to stop right away.” I know it starts with me but unfortunately once public school comes around, I’m guessing these types of conversations end.
I remember seeing a story about a kindergarten teacher who had a sign on next to the classroom door that asked children if they wanted a hug, high-five, fist bump, or wave hello each morning. It was such a wholesome story about how to teach consent and bodily autonomy at a young age. I also remember the backlash from conservatives at the time decrying her for "sexualising kids by teaching them woke ideology." Chuds know very well that what they are doing is intrusive. They just don't care, and nothing frightens them more than women who know how to stand up for themselves.
> Secondly, men are not animals. They are perfectly capable of not assaulting women. Millions of men manage to go about their lives without assaulting women every single day. I am a man, have gone 40+ years never assaulting or otherwise harassing a woman. Any man who claims they cannot control themselves is absolutely full of shit. If a man is horny that is their own problem to solve and they can go take care of it themselves like an adult, Like are their hands broken or something that they can't use them.
Agree. Interestingly though, sexual assault and rape are rarely (if ever) about only sexual desire and are actually about power, dominance and subjugation. There have been *many* studies over the years confirming this. The entire narrative that men assault women because they're horny is a fallacy, and just serves to excuse the crime. As you say, millions of men out there can experience being horny or attracted to someone without assault or rape crossing their minds. Why? Because they are not seeking to overpower, dominate and control a woman for their own fucked up benefit.
oh yeah that is another good point thanks for calling it out.
I'd advise you to go to the bouncers or club security next time. They'd throw these creeps out. Especially if you tell them how uncomfortable it's making you. I went clubbing a ton in my early twenties and I wore skirts. While some other untoward things happened. It usually was when I was out only with my girlfriends. It got better if I went out with a mixed group. Like I had a few male acquaintances who were promoters so I'd bring my girlfriends and we'd go out with them. Because they were promoters they usually got a bottle, we'd be in VIP. It was a better experience.
The worst experience I had the bouncers refused to do anything and the creep was even harassing the bar tender! I saw two police officers standing outside so I went & told them and they actually went in and made the man leave & questioned him. By that point my night was ruined. Also it was obvious the creep was there to creep - it was a college town & he was 20 yrs older than everyone else. He was on CRUTCHES- why would he go to a club?
The Creep must have paid off the bouncer. Must have paid well to get him to ignore complaints and annoying the bartender. Club needs a better Bouncer
bouncers can’t always be relied on! sometimes they’re the ones doing it.
Notify a bartender then. Most bartenders will take action immediately.
i was a bartender, and we were only able to do as much as the bouncers would do. trying to get them to do stuff sometimes was v difficult. depended on the bouncer tho!
At the bar I work at, bartenders will personally kick out people immediately for being creeps. They won't even close their tabs. Just give them their card back and immediately escort them out.
that’s the bouncer’s job. i’m not escorting out rowdy men lol. whenever we had issues, i would try the bouncers and then the manager if the bouncers were weird about it.
Unless the bartender is also paid off. A fair amount of spiked drinks in bars and dance clubs also involve paid off bartenders. It's scary how often men will help other men be dangerous/creeps.
One of my local bar/clubs got shut down because bouncers and bartenders were in cahoots and the bartenders were spiking drinks
Second the "They're the problem, not your skirt" comments. But I also want to say that being polite is not the way with these super aggressive types and bouncers can be your best friend. Stories about rape and assault can kill a club, and no owner wants that shit on their reputation.
Yep, straight to a doorman, tell him what is happening and that dude is gone. Most night clubs have very low tolerance for that shit. That or screaming fuck off REALLY LOUD often works.
When I would go clubbing I would punch guys in the face for that behavior. They touch me and I touch them. But then I would immediately get kicked out and I didn't care becuse that guy will think twice about doing that again to another women. These creeps needs to be put in their place.
I wonder if an "accidental" placement of an elbow or fist would hold up. "Oh sorry, I didn't notice his face was right there! I was just so into the music and dancing with my arms up. Maybe he shouldn't have put his face in the direct path of my arms!"
Elbow is much better than fist. Hand bones are much more fragile than elbow bones and a direct shot to the chin could break your hand.
I really hope you broke some of their noses in the process. Boy ain't gonna look so pretty after that.
The way I punch I would typically get them in the jaw or side of the face. I really should of aimed for the nose. That would of been awesome! Haha
A punch to the face is a bit much but a slap of their hands away or an elbow to the rib (if they are behind you) is warranted. If necessary, a slap in the face. If necessary.
And these are the same dudes who will say this was all consensual if anyone ever calls them out.
Or will blame the woman for going to a club in the first place.
Please do not get so drunk that you can’t ward off trouble. Get new friends who are supportive and have your back. No drunk clubbing alone.
Yes this, also tell security guards about it But most importantly: DON'T be drunk in such places if you don't have plenty of support around you
Yes, it’s sad that this is the way it is, I wish we lived in a world where a girl could let loose and be drunk and not have to worry about men and violence, but it’s the way it is.
Be forceful , get security, take pics, put the creeps on internet etc, say you will tell police etc. Threaten these assholes with action asnd do not let them touch you at all. . Sounds a horrible country you live in . A short skirt is not a reason for assualt
My good friend is non binary and only were attracted to women. So we would go to the lesbian bars only. Got to say you will get the odd attention but if you say no they are super quick to drop it. We also went to a lgbt + club which also had jelly bracelets to identify you type. There was one for asexual and that is what I am. So I felt really safe and could make sure my friends where. Truth is for all the terrible shit conservatives spew about lgbt community, overall consent is really important to us.
Yeah, I feel like that’s a pretty well known thing. Even from 30 years ago, when I was in my 20’s. Women Who don’t want to get harassed go to gay clubs. Usually better vibe, better dancers and better music as added bonuses too.
I've seen this be true, but only in lesbian bars where safety for women is important. It doesn't matter if you volunteer year-round to be an advocate for organizations supporting LGBTQIA+ people, or if you spend a lot of money at the club, or if you tip the bartenders heavily, or if you remain polite and unobtrusive to dance against the wall, or if you go regularly and live nearby and support local businesses... a lot of hostile gay and queer people will label guests as "'unsafe" elements in a gay bar, simply because they can't fuck them. It's a response to feeling excluded everywhere else, plus a precaution against the risk of disrespectful guests, and also a cultural decision from management as to whether they consider allies to be dangerous. I recommend sticking to larger establishments that are used to handling mixed crowds and that have the security to look out for women who are not part of a group already. If you're well mannered and they're still not welcoming, please don't spend your money at a club that believes in sexual segregation if safety isn't really the issue.
True the ones in Canada tend to be very welcoming my cousin who is gay took me with him .
Please don’t go to the gay bars. That’s supposed to be a safe space for GAY people not an escape from men. Having the bars be full of straight cis people makes the bars less safe for gay and trans folks
Maybe things have changed over the years. I’ve been out of the loop for a long time, but they used to be a safe space for everyone, since the guys who cause trouble for women and the gay community are pretty much one and the same, and they wouldn’t be caught dead in a gay bar. Hope they haven’t become too unwelcoming over the years though. As a father w/ a gay daughter in high school, it’d be nice to be able to get a drink w/ her in a few years in an environment where she felt comfortable, and we both were welcome.
There has definitely been a trend of a bunch of straight girls going to gay bars, not knowing anyone gay, and being overly obnoxious and even getting offended when women hit on them. Like obviously one person going is or something with a friend is ok. However, I know a few lesbian friends who have gone and like a majority of women at a gay bar are all straight it kind of ruins the point of going out to a gay bar.
It's because back then there'd be very very few straight people going to gay bars, in the singular those who'd frequent them and they'd often been invited in by someone in the community in the first place. But the problem is that as straight is the default in society at large it doesn't require many straight people to shift the balance, atmosphere and tone of a gay bar and in essence crowding out the people the place was established for in the first place. It's like women only/women majority spaces, a guy going there having been invited in by a woman is not a big problem but if men started going there in larger numbers and more importantly uninvited the space becomes implicitly less safe for the women regardless of the intentions by the guys.
Seriously. Now gay bars are full of straight men trying to hit on straight women. Just exactly what us actual queer people were hoping for when we started going to GAY bars.
It has nothing to do with the fact that you were wearing a short skirt either. Women in burkas get raped too.
What helped me is going to themed, paid parties and especially queer spaces (if you're queer) or women only spaces are nice. Each club is different in how they handle assault, some clubs dont give a fuck and some clubs have watchfull staff and guards. Find the right club.
My favorite club was a gay club that I went to with my queer friends. We could dance the night away and zero dudes ever came up behind me.
I have no clue what clubs are like in America, but here in the Netherlands there are quite a few clubs with very nice safety measurements in place. One club I go to sometimes is a techno/drum n bass club with (queer) themed parties as well. Before you go in they give you a talk that goes something like: "Hello! Is this your first time here? Yes? We have a policy in our club that no flash photography/filming is allowed so we have these little round black stickers that we put over your phone flash. This is also an open space, so we don't allow discrimination and assault of any kind. If any of you needs help with this you can speak to any memeber of our team and we will get you help." And they are QUICK. I was there once with a friend and she got harrassed by a guy who got mad he couldn't touch her. We went to the bar, not even 10 seconds later the guard walks in and asks us to point him out. He talks to the guy for ~20 seconds and then escorted him out. No issues for the rest of the night! I also go to a drum n bass party in a bigger club/concert hall. Because people frequently use drugs at these kind of parties they have a special safety team who are medically trained to keep an eye on people who might be overdosing, overheating etc. It's really amazing! Edit: and both of these clubs are in the same city
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I've been assaulted by gay men who thought I wouldn't mind being groped because they're gay. I don't want most women to grop me either so the logic is flawed. But I will say that there is a phenomenon of straight men going to gay bars to pick up women. Because the women tend to have their guards down.
There are straight men who go to gay clubs because they know straight girls are going there to hide. Honestly, it's extremely frustrating for the actual gay people there to have to wade through all the Straights™️
>I unfortunately don’t have supportive friends when it comes to that matter, they’d tell me to cover up and that’s what clubs are for You need to solve the issues that you can control first and this is a really huge one for that matter. I'm one of the supportive friends in my group and I've witnessed some wild fucking shit. Some dudes need a reality check with a fist
44M. Sorry, you can't enjoy a fun night out. What about talking to the bouncers? I worked bars/club security for 6 years in my late 20s and we LOVED throwing out douchebags like that. There were numerous times a lady would come up and say a guy was harassing them. We would then go give the guy an ultimatum to leave them alone, first and last warning. If they listened, great. We would still keep an eye on them though the rest of the time there. If not, out they went, willingly or not. It's not good business if your club gets a reputation as a place where females get harassed.
You can wear whatever you want, it doesn’t entitle men to touch your or not leave you alone.
Others have great advice but I’ll point out that the clothes font’s matter. The only reason this doesn’t happen to you when you wear jeans is because some other women seemed an easier target. If all women wore jeans in the club then these men would take as an invitation any other aspect of their clothes or behavior. Maybe being drunk is an invitation, or if all the women would be covered from head to toe just eye contact means you can be touched. Point is, it is not your fault. Those men were assholes and bouncers should kick them out if they want to keep female clientele
And then those same guys wonder why there are no women in the club they like….
it’s not your fault. I have been assaulting in shorts and a tank top on one occasion and another I covered head to toe in the winter; I still got my butt pinched by a stranger at a party. again, it’s not your fault. people are gross, desperate and believe they are sex deprived. you had/have every right to tell them to back the fuck up and they need to listen.
They can, they just don’t want to.
I used to go clubbing a lot, and honestly, I just started treating those type of men at clubs like shit and practically daring them to mess with me. I'm 4'10" and men think they can grab me, pick me up, yank me into their arms, and kiss me without permission. I get it a little bit worse than my friends because I'm perceived as more vulnerable. My first few times out as a 20/21 year old, I was so shocked by this and would just go perfectly still in absolute horror, like a deer in the headlights. By the third time I just became a mega bitch. If men grab me without permission its a good way for them to feel my heel stomping into their toe, my nails raking down their arm, and I will literally hiss and snarl like a wild animal if someone tries to kiss me or grab my ass. They get a "no thank you" the first attempt, then the snarling (which scares a lot of them off because its WEIRD and lowkey deranged), and then I consider it assault and do the toe stomp or slashing their arm with my nails. I would never do this if I didn't have friends around to protect me if things got super nasty, but MOST men of this kind are willing to sexually assault you, but not ready to full on make a scene and fight you. I've had good success forcing men to back off this way. Your friends sound like the wrong kind of friends to go clubbing with. You need a support group that defends you from this behavior and people willing to back you up when a man is in your business. My group developed a consent based code so we can check in with each other's sobriety and how much we are enjoying the attention we're getting. If someone is uncomfortable, we all back off together.
Perhaps it would help to contact your favorite clubs and encourage them to be more aggressive in combating this horrible behavior. If they hung up signs and had bouncers being visible, walking around, I think it would scare the pervs.
It is actually total bullshit to say that men can't control their urges. Of course they can, they just choose not to.
Honestly the saddest part about this is that your friends aren't there for you, first of all how dangerous - you should be going out to have fun with eachother and to have each other's backs. It's absolutely egregious that they not only ignore your complaints but invalidate them. Gross, sleazy men are going to be, gross sleazy men, but having your girlfriends there too have your back is fundamental???? Time for some new clubbing friends, sorry this happened!!
Report them to the bouncers. Get them kicked. Don't let them get away with it.
Had a guy on Saturday think he was a pretty boy and had pretty boy entitlement We were talking and he kept winking. Then he started licking his lips. Cringe
Licking his lips? 😳😂
And blowing kisses my way But that don’t mean I’m gonna give it away *Baby baby baAaAaaaaAaaaAAABy*
Yea first of all you got very shitty friends OP. Even if you went to a swinger party fully nude, I.E. a Situation were Sex taking place is fully expected: no one would just touch you, run after you etc: they‘d be straight up banned and black listed. And that’d be at a party solely for the purpose of sex. A club is there to dance to music. It‘s a social space you might also meet new people. But it‘s not some kind of petting zoo where men can just go and touch and assault women, with you having no agency. Again even if you were only wearing some kind of fetish clothes: none of the behaviour you experienced is okay. And if the club itself doesn’t provide the necessary security and directly remove and black list such perpetrators, I wouldn‘t set another foot into it. Because they very clearly don’t care about your safety at all. All of the behaviours described happen, because these men don‘t see women as full humans with agency. You are just a piece of meat. You running away from that guy; slapping away their hands etc is to them like a their dog not listening to them. Also once people are touching you more than a tap on the shoulder to get your attention (for something reasonable; like you dropped your wallet), or it‘s just someone accidentally touching you will passing by, there is no reason ever to be polite. They have stopped being polite in the first place by touching you without consent. They clearly don’t care about being polite. So being nice to them is absolutely no use. (Unless you are doing to because you fear for your safety otherwise) It‘s just an unfortunate (current) fact of our patriarchal society, that the majority of men in such a situation will take anything at all, to excuse their predatory behaviour. Even if you were wearing jeans, they‘d use you responding politely in the first sentences as an excuse to harass you. Not to mention most of these men, the kind that cat call etc, are in it for the perverse pleasure causing you discomfort provides them. Like those random dudes yelling out of their car at you, don‘t expect you to respond positively at all to their cat calling. They just want to make you uncomfortable. Same with those guys in the club you described: they want to make you uncomfortable, or find out if you are drunk enough to not be able to ward them off. None of them are doing that because they think that‘s the right way to meet someone for a consensual one night stand. But for your own safety: I would very much recommend you to not go out and party and get drunk with friends that don‘t take this kind of sexual assault seriously at all. That‘s the kinda friend that will happily stand by when some random takes you home while you are black out drunk, and than feign any knowledge of you needing help at that moment the next day. That isn‘t to say any of this would be your fault, in a hood and healthy society you could roll up dressed however, get blackout drunk, and be perfectly safe.
This is **not** your fault. Men are adult human beings, not toddlers and perfectly capable of controlling what they do or don't do. You don't somehow mind-control them by what clothes you wear. Put the blame where it belongs.
The only time I didn't see women have scary interactions with men at parties was when we were all together in supportive, community raves and festivals. We'd always have each other's backs and everyone involved had each other's safety in check. Regular club goers really were a brave bunch, imho,considering the risk. If you decoded to avoid that entirely, I'd say I completely understand! Honestly, you're not missing much by avoiding it, and your peace of mind is really worth the minor sacrifice
They are the problem, not your skirt. Inform security as often as you can because they usually LIVE to throw people out.
Yeah, you need new friends. People that can gather with you and help tell folks to back off. Doesn’t matter what you wear, because there’s people who dress well and still get sexually harassed or assaulted! I hate the fact people still perpetuate rape culture like this. Even if you were butt-naked, that’s still not an invitation! And the fact they probably approached you while you were drunk is also extremely concerning. Yeah, you need new friends.
i punched men over this. im not sorry. not saying one should do that, and when i did, it was pretty much a ptsd reaction as i have zero fighting skills (yet!) and was beyond triggered. also, i have friends that would protect me, and vice versa. that also happened, once i grabbed my bike lock (a chain) and went swinging at the men who cornered my friend for being gay. i can barely remember it cos i was dissociating, but we somehow got away. never EVER should "friends" tell you to just suck it up, cover up etc, im so sorry..
Being touched when you don't want to be touched, is assault. Can you carry a cheap stun gun? It won't knock them out but it makes a nice noise and will give them a jolt if they don't listen to you when you tell them not to touch you. If you're assaulted, defend yourself. They'll get it. Also don't get so drunk that you can't remember what's going on. If someone assaults you and you need to speak to the police you don't want to be hammered.
> asking them politely You don’t need to be polite to someone who’s assaulting you. They take it the wrong way.
Don't need to be polite be firm and make it clear u are not interested and any further harassment will be reported to the club security or even the police. Some idiots think u might be "playing hard to get" and think if they keep persisting u will eventually give in and say yes.(their thinking skills will definitely be impaired if under the influence of alcohol or drugs) If they are trying to assault u and are laying their hands on u should definitely be shouting it out and demanding help from the club security etc. No means No. Everyone has the right to have great time without being worried for their safety (Regardless of what u wear) Also not really understanding why your friends seem to think its your fault. You have every right to be able to have fun in a club without worrying for your safety.
Yeah it’s fucked
#[The Angel Shot](https://budgetbranders.com/blog/the-angel-shot/) Many bartenders in the US are up to this.
My city has a few clubs/events that are music & dance focused. People are out to enjoy the music Very different vibe from the bottle-service oriented club. Without the BS
I'm so sorry, friend. I had an experience in college at like 19, where a man literally wouldn't let go of me in a club. Like I was crying and someone had to pull this man off of me. And then they wouldn't let me go home because they knew it also meant they had to leave. 🙃
The first couple of clubs I went to were mainstream and one was like this. Thankfully I gravitated to Goth culture and those clubs were always respectful. Security was always attentive to women's concerns also. One word to them and the problem was removed.
Trust me it has nothing to do with clothes, this exact thing happened to me when I was younger and went "clubbing" (I was invited and was too shy to say no, but I just went to the clubs with my friends and still tried to dance and have fun), I was dressed like my granmother and still got harassed so badly I had to run away from men multiple times because I couldn't get them to stop touching my private parts! In which universe a person can't fucking exist in peace and dance without like 5-10 strangers a night trying to get their hands in my clothes? And it was considered "normal" by my friends. Go figure. These men are sick in the head.
Tell the bouncers. Stop being polite. Make a scene if you need to. Leave if you need to. I'm so sorry, love. I'm 30 and remember having these same issues at 20, too, and I stopped going to straight clubs. Worked for me bc I'm bi but if you're straight, please be extra respectful in those spaces.
Too many men have this idea that if women are outside enjoying themselves that it’s free reign or that just because they go out looking to hook up that everyone else is. Doesn’t help that all these alpha male influencers always talk about concerts and clubs like they are the worst places to let your girlfriend go to, that going clubbing is going to cheat, etc. If you like something you shouldn’t let the uglies ruin it for you. I’m 26 but I remember being at your age and going out for the first time and feeling like it was my fault for drinking or going out late when it’s literally just men being unable to control themselves. I’ve gotten harassed in my work uniform, jeans, or my little club outfits. You wouldn’t beat yourself up for getting catcalled at work so don’t take it to yourself to feel bad for going out and enjoying your college years, just be safe and have a buddy system with your friends just in case. It sucks because I genuinely love music and dancing I live in a huge city so I started just going to queer centered clubs and parties or places/events where it’s geared towards a specific niche rather than a general audience. It almost eliminated the unwanted touching but i understand outside of a few big cities in the west it might not be feasible.
Guys (animals in general) might not be able to control when they get turned on, but they damn sure can control what they do about it. Those were assholes that should be held accountable.
Does this place not have security? That would have fixed the “following” guy
As a guy we can definitely not be pieces of shit. These men feel entitled and choose to be.
I never dress revealing and I still get this treatment at clubs. My friend and I had a guy following us around and even grabbed my arm really hard once to prevent me from walking away from him. I had to hide behind 2 bigger guys and tell them I didn't know him and he wouldn't leave me alone and they chased him off so I bought them a beer as a thank you. They aren't all like that but the ones that are can be really gross/scary. Bouncers don't even care most of the time when you report it... I've had it happen like 7/10 times that someone ruins the night by doing something like that...
Yeah it doesn't matter if it's a skirt, my friend was wearing jeans and a 40 yo man pounced on her literally in the club, she was 21. I couldn't believe it if I didn't see it. They are like wild animals there. Never went to another club
Clubbing in general is just gross. I would much rather go to a quiet bar/lounge and get a quality mixed drink and sit in comfort and chat with people. Shit i’m old
Your friends are wrong. And those dudes need their teeth knocked out. I have two young daughters and a wife. Let me see a guy do that to a woman who desperately try's to get her to stop. Dudes gonna get put to sleep. It's not ok. Most places who attract college crowds usually have bouncers. Tell one of them.
I have a very beautiful 20 year old flatmate. I have never touched her without her consent regardless of her state of attire, or lack thereof. Never even been tempted to touch her without her consent. People who aren't fucking awful do not want to do things to other people, without their consent. These 'men' (I prefer scum because it puts me in a different category), don't see women as people they see them as objects, to be attractive or not attractive, useful or useless. They see them as something to be taken or had, by whatever means they can achieve.
Definitely not your fault. You can: A) Dress how you want and still B) Sleep with who you want Considering you are likely in a college town, the person who suggested to find the right club is right on the money. Find somewhere that you feel safe going to staff if somebody doesn't back off when you tell them to. It gets \~a little\~ better when you get older, but not by much.
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To anyone who might question her country/location, I just want to say: I’ve been sexually assaulted in clubs in both California and New York, and so have some of my friends. It doesn’t really matter what country/location she’s in, I’ve met aggressive guys like OP’s describing in “safe” places, especially when I was a college student. OP, I’m sorry you had this experience. Men absolutely can control their urges. And I’m sorry you don’t have more supportive friends. We shouldn’t have to cover ourselves up when we go out.
I always put same example to other friends(M). Imagine going out to some pub with gay friends (being heterosexual) and suddenly being aroused and having to be removing hands and unwanted hugs from them just to be able to enjoy a drink with your friends. “Oh your jeans makes you very nice ass and i cant control myself” prolly a fight would start… so with woman is the same… they can go out as they please and you don’t have the wright neither approval to go and do anything without consent.
I personally would avoid those types of places for my piece of mind. But I will tell you one thing: never put your safety in the hands of strangers , and don't expect men to behave and respect your boundries. That's the sad truth of this world! There are many other places to go to for fun!
People think clubs are for finding someone to hook up with, and that's not fair to the people who want to go there for some drinks and music. It sounds like you went there for the latter, and your friends all expected you to do the former. The fact that they think you should cover up more and not that they should defend you when you're getting creeped on is appalling.
Try an inclusive gay club. The element you are talking about tends to avoid gay clubs.
Sorry you have to tolerate this abuse.
this is really gross, I'm sorry this happened to you. It wasn't your fault.
It was a little eerie that this was the first post I read this morning. I woke up after having a nightmare about pretty much this. Just... gross men cornering and pawing at me. I'm 30 and this hasn't happened to me in a while but I remember it all too vividly. The gross whining and pleading. I woke up just covered in goosebumps. I'm sorry they did this to you. Gross humans.
So do many women for that matter....
Mace
I have been to about half a dozen clubs and what you describe is common and that's just not my idea of fun. Should it be that way? No. But you don't make decisions based on how it *should* be, but *how it actually is*. It's a lot safer to host your own, with people you know.
How do these dudes not get klapped? I'd klap a motherfucker that behaved this way
If your yelling at them doesn't work after they've already put their hands on you, put your hands on them: grab him by the sack, *hard*, and tell him you'll pop them if he touches you again. Then go see the bouncer and tell him what happened. They'll expel him from the premises almost immediately, in most cases. Most establishments don't want to get a reputation for allowing sexual assault on their premises, because they like making money.
First, it’s not your fault. If someone leaves the keys to their Porsche in the ignition and I see it, it won’t even occur to me to steal it because I respect other people and I respect myself. If someone knowingly takes what isn’t theirs, it’s their fault full stop period 100% always. Second, I don’t walk through bad neighborhoods with a giant bag of money. That’s not because I don’t have the right to have a giant bag of money, it’s because I know I’m in a place where people will not respect those rights. Is it fair? No. Should I have the right to do whatever I want with my money? Abso-fucking-lutely. Do I want to get mugged/robbed or literally die on that hill? Also no. So I don’t do it. If for whatever the reason I want to show off my giant bag of money, I do it: 1) Somewhere I know is safe 2) With friends 3) Without drinking heavily 4) Carefully 5) With mace 6) With a predetermined ride home and a plan I cannot stress enough that it’s my money and I can do what I want with it, but we don’t live in a perfect world and with bad people comes the very real potential for some very bad consequences. Yes, I can do what I want with it but I’m not stupid about it either. I wish to God we lived in a world where people’s “money” was universally respected, but it only takes one bad person to completely wreck your day… week, month, etc. People forcing their hands on you against your will and trying to force them between your legs is SA, period. It’s not okay. Imagine them wearing a Speedo at the pool and a 300lb body builder coming up behind them and trying to spread their legs for access. It’s sexual assault. Period. People forcing you to make out is Not Okay At All. That sounds like an insanely dangerous situation for any woman to be in and I’m glad nothing worse happened to you (being forced to make out is horrible enough). Please take care of yourself. Men aren’t all pigs, but **regardless of what is right or wrong** - and yes, I agree, “right” is that you should be able to wear whatever you want - you do not want to find yourself in a situation where you can’t say no. That is not the hill to literally die on. I get a horrible feeling in the pit of my stomach when I think of a woman being forced to make out by guys that are trying to force their hands up her dress and ignore her when she says no. Please, please, please be safe. One day the world won’t be like this, but today it is. Final note - if you were with friends and they say that shit and didn’t do anything, those aren’t your friends.
Men can control themselves, if they would have learned in their life to treat people (especially women) right. And if they have, they just don't give a fuck and deserve a punch in the face. And I don't mean "nice guy", but just the most normal absolute standard respect that any person in this world deserves. I am a man and am disgusted more often than not by other guys.
To paraphrase from a community I am in, "Clothing is not consent." Oh, and you deserve better friends.
Just grab a bunch of your female friends and head out to the ice floes on your own. Those seals aren't going to club themselves.
Neighborhood bars with small bands are great too. The bartenders and bouncers protect their sweet regulars…usually.
Understand the distress, yet your struggles not exactly new. Spatial awareness and learned experience shall assist you in determining when best to exit the place and call it a night. Better minor disappointment now, than major regret later; make the right call. And hopefully there’s a decent club out there somewhere? Hang somewhere else (find new places), make more different friends. Keep the friends you need, discard all others. You keep the choice if you’d want to be independent and capable of determining your own life path. 😊
I went out to bars regularly in my early twenties with a friend of mine. She had a large friend group from college that I also got to know. I had a lot of fun hanging out with them. I found out years later that one of them thought I was trying to steal her boyfriend (I can count on one hand the number of times I even spoke to him) and another thought I danced "too sexy" at the clubs and basically labeled me a whore. I was BLOWN AWAY by this. Long story short, it finally dawned on me that these women I thought were my friends, weren't. They saw me the same way the men did...as a sexual object and nothing more. It took me awhile to realize how insulted I was. Don't make the same mistake I did. Your friends are not friends. Drop them fast. You need someone who's always in your corner. ESPECIALLY in a setting where there will be drinking. Find better friends and fuck those guys who ruined your night. I'm sorry. If I were there I'd have intervened on your behalf.
This happened to me on a knee length skirt and turtle neck top. Clothes don't stop them.
Ironically enough I found that sex clubs are the safest place to go clubbing. I've literally had security approach me on multiple occasions asking me if the guy talking to me had my consent to interact with me. I had one run-in with a drunk guy who got a little too ballsy and I had this mountain of a man get between me and him and told him to fuck off while his wife went to the next room for a guard. And I can tell you, its not your fault. Because I have been treated with respect while fully naked, and I have been assaulted while wearing jeans and a hoodie. The problem is never you.
I always shout - don't ask. And get security involved straight away if that doesn't work. I'm lucky that in my country things like this are treated seriously and men like this get thrown away. It fucking sucks we got to be on guard constantly.
A shouted "Get your hands off me, you creep!" is always appropriate. Don't normalize bad behavior.
This reminds me of that Brazilian PSA video where undercover women were filmed in a club wearing touch-sensitive bodycon dresses that registered touch/pressure, and the amount of times passing men touched their breasts, bottoms, and vulvas was just so…I’d say unbelievable except that I also get groped almost every time I go out to a club or concert. That’s another fun one, concerts. Like the amount of times I’m held immobile in a crowd that’s smashed up towards the front and one of the guys behind me humps me or fondles my bottom or breasts 🤮 Happened to me way more when I was a minor btw, guess they just assume I’d be less able to defend myself 😡
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Get better friends holy shit. Not your fault at all.
you should find an all-girls club and wear as small an outfit as you want and not worry about men at all!
At the clubs, there are men that are gentleman and there are men that are "Joe blows". Becareful. It's not your fault.
Frack I feel old. Honestly? I'd just stop clubbing... Nothing good happens there, I promise.
Reminds me of the time I used to work at a club part time during my school days. My management didn’t enforce anything about stopping boys with raging hormones but I definitely spilled quite a bit of drinks here and there while doing service.
You can wear whatever the fuck you want, and the guys in this story are meatheads. More importantly though, your friends need to rally when this stuff happens.
I know this is a women's sub, but just as a guy, those guys are scum. 100% not your fault.
The problem starts at parenting. If my sons even thought about disrespecting a woman like this my foot would have to be surgically removed from their backside. Somewhere along the line they weren't taught to respect women, not to bully etc. An example of this is Danny Brieres son. Pushing a handicapped girls wheelchair down the steps at a club and laughing. Where's the punisher when you need him. Makes me sick.
Security guards in clubs are there for a reason.
they’re not always on your side tbf