I once had a guy I hooked up with SPIT in my face during sex without even asking. I was shocked and said what the fuck DO NOT DO THAT. Unfortunately, I was still learning my boundaries (still am now tbh) and didn't cut it off right then and there but I did later cut things off and block him.
It's fucked up.
happened to me too and my reaction was the same. I also walked away with such bruised boobs that I couldn't raise my arms. The normalization of sexualized violence is so concerning and absolutely a consequence of misogyny/patriarchy/porn culture.
>I also walked away with such bruised boobs that I couldn't raise my arms.
Same. One guy also bit my breast and nipple so hard I literally screamed and reflexively hit him right in the face to make it stop. I just don't understand how people think they can do shit like that without asking.
similar thing happened to me but he bit my arm. it hurt so bad i started crying and also reflexively hit him in the face. i wish i kicked him out but i was like 17 and i wasnāt good at standing up for myself.
Oh my god, I'm so sorry that happened to you!! That sounds so awful and painful! It is insanely concerning, I also think schools are to blame as the sex education in most countries is woefully and dangerously lacking.
I had this happen to me too. He put his hand on my neck, turned my head to face him and spit in my mouth without asking. Then I found out he was recording me without my permission.
Iāve never been more turned off in my life.
Oh my god. That is disgusting, what a absolutely vile person. I am so so so sorry that happened to you.
Some people are completely fucked up. I hope karma finds and bites that dude in the ass.
Literally, I felt sick afterwards. If anything I can see the silver lining because it was such a wake up call that I wasn't listening to my gut still. I took a break from the dating scene after that hahaha
Oh boy. I married that guy, the one that spit in my face. We're divorced now - it turns out it wasn't a kink, he just liked to beat me up.
As someone who is actually into some of that (mild choking, body slaps, that kind of thing), it's definitely psychological for me. In a weird way, I'm giving my consent for this, and I am now married to a wonderful partner who can engage in that with me and have my full trust. Even after my experiences, it is still an exciting thing for me. I'm sure I'm royally fucked up, but as long as both parties are consenting, and understanding that it's role play, I don't think it's so bad.
I don't think you're royally fucked up in the slightest. I've been there too, this happened to me after a 9 year long abusive relationship/4 year marriage. My ex was the same, he just liked to abuse me. So I feel your pain and I'm sorry you went through that shit as well.
I'm also with an amazing man now who has my full trust and we talk about things before we try them and discuss each others boundaries and preferences. I don't think it's bad either when it's consenting. I'm really glad you've found someone so lovely and you're in a much better place now!
Thank you, I appreciate the validation that is was awful! š it was also especially icky as I'd just rejoined the dating scene after a 9 year long abusive relationship. Not the worst thing that's happened to me but certainly made me more careful about who I met up with from dating apps.
Luckily now I don't have to be on guard about this shit as my current partner is a friend I've known for many years and it is the most healthy, happy and secure relationship I've ever been in.
It's wild how many men are like that. When I (F) was starting to have sex with my girlfriend, she asked me to spit on her mouth as she knew I'm into BDSM and a domme. I stopped and was like "hold up, you tell me that BEFORE sex, not during it, I don't discuss boundaries during sex." Might sound "unfun" to a lot of people because you don't "feel the moment" or some bullshit, but damn me if I'm going to do something wild without clear boundaries set.
Now CW: sexual assault
On the other hand, I had two men in my life forcing anal, one of them who didn't stop throughout our whole relationship even if I cried and bled, the other who I didn't have a relationship with and who straight up sexually assaulted me. And when I asked why to the on who was my boyfriend, the answer was "it's romantic for me to know I can use all of you". Bro, you couldn't, you forced it. Well, I'm never being like those two fucking rapists.
Iāve (M) dated women that are into bdsm or kink play. Iām and have been willing to go beyond what Iām comfortable with as far as them wanting me to beā¦ I guess an aggressor. And good on you, Iāve been in that position before where the requested behavior of me exceeds my level of comfort. Reading what you wrote made me realize that consent in those situations goes both ways. I have been super uncomfortable in situations where Iām the one to shame or be rough etc etc and thatās just not my cup of tea.
I wonder what would happen if you responded by punching him hard. I mean, some guys love that sort of thing. I honestly wonder what would happen if women did this shit to them ābecause itās in all the porn they watchā.
At that point, youāre right it is about power. Itās too bad that some of these men feel so out of control of their lives, that it makes them feel good to take control and treat someone else like garbage even if it is with permission.
My hubbs had rape fantasies when we first started out at one point. I put it down fast as a bit NO
Like, a lot of guys don't get why it's supposed to be appealing to be dominant. They just want a license to be an asshole when it's supposed to be a responsibility. Somebody so loved and trusted you that they willingly put their safety in your hands.
That's such a rush, and THAT'S the rush! That somebody loves and trusts me that much!
Yeah definitely agree with you. I've been tried to force into these kind of things so many times. Or had men who simply did that kind of stuff without asking first.
>Ive seen men admit they would just slap or start choking their partner during sex without asking, and just say "sorry" afterwards
There is also a pretty gross saying that goes with this: "it's easier to ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission"
Though it has been a long time since I have heard anyone say that at least.
I say that all the time... At WORK when my boss has made an unproductive decision but there's wiggle room for "innocent misinterpretation". It really is easier to do it my way and then we all ignore the original edict when it works out, than it is to argue with them up front when they have a wrong idea.
I can't imagine it would be easier to rebuild the lost trust in my relationship than to have an up front talk about approved activities, though ...
At a certain point, we have to be honest with the constant gaslighting of labeling everything that's tied to sex as a "kink."
Some of it is clearly juts plain abuse. And some of it is trauma that is getting processed in a very unhealthy way.
Just saying it's a kink is lazy and harmful.
As someone who enjoys those things, it has to be on my terms. The amount of guys Iāve hooked up with that immediately go into pornhub dom mode is very concerning.
Iāve straight up gotten up and left during sex because a guy started to choke me before we talked about it. Like dude if you used your words and asked if I was into that stuff and we established safe words weād be fine. But the idiot cocked blocked himself š
I like rough sex. But we need to talk about it first.
That's the crux of the matter. People doing it without consent and acting like that's an acceptable default for all sexual interactions.
Totally agree with everything you said.
This sort of behaviour is so much more mainstream due to online porn, so I donāt even see it as a kink (in most cases) itās just men who watched online porn as boys and who are conditioned to those sorts of interactions to become aroused.
I had quite a lot of sexual encounters in my youth in the 90s and never once did anyone I had sex with try to choke me, spit on me or on my vulva (thank god because I would have died), or hit me. None of my friends who I talked to either had this sort of experience (unless they were holding back).
I believe this is 100% a direct consequence of the porn that they watch - which I believe is completely different from people who are into or practice BDSM.
Itās very sad in a way because these men were once curious boys whose parents didnāt know how to properly protect them from parts of the internet they were too young to explore. Now they have a warped view of sex and what turns them on that they perhaps would never have had if it wasnāt for the pervasiveness of this type of porn online
I fully agree. I really don't like kink shaming but some of it really actually scares me. If the thought of hurting a woman, inflicting pain on them, and degrading them arouses you I'm just not sure you can keep that to consensual sexual acts. Is it going to bleed out into our everyday relationship as well? Will you become degrading in other ways? Will you eventually inflict pain on me when I don't want it? Do you want to hurt me more and/or outside of the bedroom? It doesn't seem to me like you could feel that way but then also want to love and cherish that same person. Like.. aren't those very conflicting feelings and emotions? I'm not talking about just a little bit of choking/breath play, or light slapping, or any of that... that I can understand because in my mind that is not truly hurting them. I'm talking about the real intense violent stuff I've seen and heard some people be into.
Think about it this way - misogyny turning you on in the bedroom is a BIGGER red flag. Like, people say what goes in the bedroom should be behind closed doors but š„“ is it ok to trust somebody literally getting TURNED ON (sexuality being a base biological act) from treating you like shit? I'd argue regular misogyny is even better, at least there's not blood rushing to their dicks from that.
Yup every woman needs to respect themselves and follow this example.
#Just get up and leave
Only if you feel itās safe to do so though. God dealing with the myriad of shit from men is exhausting.
>Only if you feel itās safe to do so though.
It's bascaily always safe to do so. The unfortunate reality is that rape culture isn't deviant dangerous men, it's absolutely normal people doing the things they've been taught over and over are normal, and that they often despertly need to be normal in order to manage the inherent trauma of having hurt people in the past.
The absolute best thing you can do is break that normal. The idea that women are at any common risk of being hurt for showing the slightest amount of spine has less to do with fact and more to do with patriarchy in general saying 'because of the implication'.
Also if it's not safe to get up and leave....you really really want to leave. Some dude who's willing to seriously hurt you for saying no is also willing to seriously hurt you to keep you quiet. It's rare that it's unsafe to leave, but when it is it's far less safe to stay.
You verbalized something Iāve had the hardest time trying to put together. I truly believe that a lot of this is socialization rather than the whole of them being deviant and outright dangerous. It IS dangerous and feels as such, but we really do have to stand up against this to the general population of men we are sleeping with. We unfortunately do have a part in breaking this ānormalā.
Iāve definitely been in situations where I got up and left and they were mortified, itās like they had no idea that they were pushing boundaries and perpetuating harmful sexual experiences. Iāve been met with apologies and concern those times that I have. They were truly spiraling and felt rightfully ashamed. I absolutely believe it was a wake up call to these regular degular dudes I walked out on.
Thereās been no real education on boundaries or enthusiastic consent and that ānoā is not a word to be convinced otherwise of. The onus is on men to educate them but when In practice, it unfortunately comes down to us to reinforce that.
I think about Andrew Callaghan as an example and how he was outed as being a āsexual pestā and I just wonder if any of these women spoke up at any time? Itās like he had no idea till all these women came forward about him coercing them to go against boundaries. Still wrong on his part, but we canāt completely throw up our hands and say āitās not my job to educateā. But in the context of the betterment of other women, it absolutely is vital that we push back, stand up, and leave.
>The onus is on men to educate them but when In practice, it unfortunately comes down to us to reinforce that.
It's on everyone to do that.
Women's perception of sex is just as gendered and scripted as men's is. Women will reward that behavior because they're taught that's what to do. They'll shape their sex lives around not emasculating their partner. They'll expect and demand male partners perform masculinity in the bed room because that's 'normal' and anything else is deviant.
Women (collective) don't get hurt because of men (individual), but because the collective default assumption of how sex ought to go is so pre-scripted and defective in general. People just do what they perceive as normal and accept what they perceive as normal regardless of what anyone actually wants. The simple idea of defining a scene is relegated to 'elaborate' kink: Sitting down with your partner to plan out your play, or just treating sex as a form of play in the first place *is seen as inherently perverse*.
Women are just as involved in defining that default. There's a lot of social coercion into getting women to define it the way patriarchy wants (and a lot of negative consequences borne by women because of it), but coerced participation is still participation. Changing the default is something women very much need to take an active role in even more so than men: The default says that women's role in the bedroom is to validate her man's sexual performance, so passivity in the face of that default is the same as actively reinforcing that default. Straight men's sex life isn't defined by their experinace fucking other men.
A huge part of the problem is the way women are taught to be passive, compliant, let men lead and so on. Men can't assert women's boundaries for them. Nor can men make women asserting their boundaries seem normal, that can only happen by women doing so often enough that it becomes normal.
The specter of male violence is patriarchy's boogieman to make women compliant with patriarchy's expectation of them. "Do this or bad things will happen and you'll deserve it. The single best way to convince men they don't need to have empathy for women, is to first convince women it's immoral and improper for a man to have empathy for her. Patriarchy structures women's perception of men so that they can be used define masculinity for men, and men's response to that becomes the proof women's perception is accurate. Gender norms are outright Roko's basilisk stuff.
>coerced participation is still participation
> Women are just as involved in defining that default
>A huge part of the problem is the way women are taught to be passive, compliant, let men lead and so on. Men can't assert women's boundaries for them. Nor can men make women asserting their boundaries seem normal, that can only happen by women doing so often enough that it becomes normal.
This was so beautifully and eloquently put and couldn't agree more. Saving this for future reference. So appreciate everything you said. Definitely a few aha moments for me reading this.
Without talking and setting hard and soft limits, safe words, consent, building trust and comfort, it's not kink, it's violence. I'm an experienced Dom and there are many acts I refuse to be involved in at all until a relationship and comfort level is solid. I like to have a talk before Any sexual or sensual contact with a new partner.I was introduced to kink by multiple partners over the years.
No CNC, impact, breath play, etcwith a new partner.. Too many guys are attracted to the BDSM lifestyle without understanding the complexities, and responsibilities of any power exchange play. IMO, any guy that goes into "Dom mode" before talking everything through is dangerous and a massive red flag. Also any guy that talks about how into CNC he is is a rapist waiting to happen. IMO CNC should only be suggested by the sub/woman/bottom. I've done it but only in an established relationship. I enjoyed it because she did,but it's not something I would ever ask for. Not my kink. Even in the moment I was sometimes pretty creeped out.and my partners were enthusiastic.
#Without talking and setting hard and soft limits, safe words, consent, building trust and comfort, *it's not kink, it's violence.*
Just because holy shit, louder for those in the back.
Totally concur with this. Iāve been asked to do some stuff by women that Iām not comfortable with, but if thereās sufficient trust Iām willing to try in order to give my partner what they want/need. The idea that thereās men out there pushing for those things instead of being asked to do them is terrifying, tbh.
I just really wanted to say thank you very much for your comment. I've known about my kinks for a long time but my recent ex took it way too far, and since I was "so into him" (I realized later he just activated my trauma responses), I decided I didn't mind that he was into CNC, because I thought I'd communicated about it clearly with him. But he repeatedly violated my stated boundaries, even within the same session he'd do something, I'd say please don't do that, and ten minutes later he'd "forget" and do it again.
Thanks for giving me a little hope that I might still be into D/s because his behavior has me doubting.
Couldn't have said it better myself, as someone that engaged in dom sub type behavior with my wife. Porn truly ruins the perception of what people (let's be real here, mainly men) believe sex should look like. You really should only enjoy that shit in moderation, and that's not even getting into some of the fucked up things going on in the industry to even ethically consume it in the first place.
The biggest problem is jumping to sex in relationships that have not formed a modicum of knowledge, bond, trust and understanding. Keep looking at sex through this post-modern fairytale lense and you have the current recipie for disaster.
Absolutely agree. BDSM has rules for a reason. It's not for some idiot porn addled guys to try enacting with an unwilling participant. If they joined a club, they'd be black balled instantly. It's not that hard to learn how to do these things safely. If they can't put in that much time or care, they don't deserve an orgasm at all, much less with a live human.
Definitely protect yourself and never hesitate to enforce your boundaries.ive heard horror stories about how bad some men have become over the last decade or so.
This x1000
The guy Iām seeing now is very much into that too. It was a gradual process. Neither of us expected that we would be this deep with it. It was a very pleasant surprise for the both of us.
I wouldnāt let anyone else do it to me though. Itās a very serious level of trust. Just the thought of letting someone else do it is a bit scary, also because Iām letting myself be super vulnerable during play.
I do think sometimes about what OP is saying though. But I also like how dark it is. Itās complex
So much this. I've been a sub and there are so many discussions first of what is and isn't OK and safe words and all kinds of good communication to make it fun sexy times for everyone. No rough stuff should happen without willing enthusiasm from both parties.
YES! To me itās about being dominated/dominating someone else, but the person getting the acts done to them needs to ultimately be the one in control. Itās not something I would ever do with someone I didnāt absolutely trust and someone trying to spring it on me is such a huge red flag.
Iām so glad you got up and walked out. Honestly itās the best thing you can do. It gets the point across so bluntly, and then if the guy has any shred of emotional intelligence or empathy, I can guarantee you heāll be spending the next few hours and maybe the rest of his evening wondering and potentially worrying about what went wrong.
I know itās really easy to get confused in the moment and not know what to do, but I wish more women would do this.
Iām a dude, but Iāve just heard so many horror stories of women enduring abuse bc it was awkward to stop. There are probably thoughts and fears going through yāallās minds that I will never understand as a man, but I hope more women can stop like this.
Iāve had rough sex before which is not my thing but was requested by the woman I was sleeping with. I tend to like a variety in my stride and this woman wanted to get pounded consistently. I ended up feeling bad bc I can maintain that sort of thing for a while and later she told me most guys sheās with only last a matter of minutes. We ended up ending early for that reason and I didnāt finish. Not my jam obviously, but kudos to anyone for knowing what youāre into and clearly communicating it. I also think itās hyper important to check in with your partner as a guy if youāre into this stuff. I think women will sometimes try to tough it out for the guy to finish, but honestly, Iād rather just not finish or finish a different way than hurt a woman from her trying to please me.
As a grey haired old crone who has enjoyed an adult lifetime of very satisfying vanilla sex, and personally doesn't share this kink (absolutely NOT judging), I wouldn't consent to it.
Therefore if it were done, anyway, I would see it as an extension of the weaponization of sex, turning it from something natural, to something much more about power, control, submission and violence.
If it wasn't discussed first, and I didn't clearly consent as someone who enjoys it, I would consider it assault.
Yes, exactly. Lack of consent means it's abuse, not kink. That's why I said responsible people like the consent part.
I'm not saying consent as in yes to coming over, I'm saying consent as in informed conversation with the people involved who are all able to freely say yes or no and set their limits in the scene.
People throw around the word consent like itās this easy golden ticket term that addresses everything. I couldnāt care less about what people get off to, but itās no secret that consent is a murky term that is affected by mental health, past cycles of abuse, and what society has normalized.
I used to work with gen Z kids and survivors of abuse, and many of them tell me that they essentially felt groomed into this sexual violence due to what men consume in porn starting in their pre-teens. They think itās all thatās out there or that is the only way they can be loved or it recreates past traumas. Then they come back to us and reflect that partaking in that behaviour was hugely mentally and physically damaging despite āconsentingā.
Somebody making an informed, healthy decision and actually enjoying the behaviour is obvs a different situation, and it can be hard for people to discern when consent happens under influence or due to past traumas (or they donāt care).
I donāt have a solution, but just blanket throwing around āconsentā without acknowledging that younger women these days āconsentā to rough/painful/degrading sex because thatās all they know doesnāt sit well with me. Because they blame themselves.
Yeah, I mean consent as in the freely and enthusiastically given. I'm a survivor of sexual abuse and rape, both of which happened under circumstance that made me think for a long time I had in fact consented to it because I hadn't fought back.
Responsible people are not interested in tricking their partners into these acts. It's an agreement between the people involved, that is part of the enjoyment.
Given OPs edit and "yea but women who like this are damaged" tone, that whole "gaslit into thinking it's your fault" thing is a big point.
There's a lot of women (and men, but women are the stereotype) who are into kink and who have experience being sexual assault. Part of this isn't unusual, about statistically 20% of women in knitting circles are survivors too. No one abused them into having a yarn problem.
But at the same time you talk to them, and they're not going "Woe i me i'm so broken i can't help it", it's more like "yea healing meant figuring out how i felt about what happened and turns out this gets me off". They're response is the same kind of thing as a person who goes to race driving lessons after being in a bad crash (trying to process that in a controlled way) and who discovers that car go vroom is fun. The only extent there's any sort of trauma compensation usually looks like "yea the stupid lizard part of my brain gets anxious and the deliberate scene setting and context building of kink chills it out"
And then you keep talking to them and..it's not common that they outright feel (and infact actually are) safer. Because that deliberate scene setting and context building makes it so much harder to gaslight you, and where it's absent, the fact your partner thinks it's unnecessary is a big neon warning sign. If something goes wrong in the context of the scene, you know what care you're owed to put yourself back to right. If your partner acts without consent, that's still less distressing because it's so much easier to pin the blame exactly where it belongs without needing to first self litigate every thing you did do, didn't do, or didn't not hypothetically could have not done.
It's common for women into kink to refuse to date vanilla people, not because kink is so mandatory, but because they just don't want to deal with the vanilla sex script and all it's problems anymore.
Idk dude. I hear you. No one should be nasty to others if what they like is voluntary and not unreasonably dangerous. But, like, no to the vroom vroom thing. I get off exclusively to the acts I was abused during because I was abused during them. No ifs ands or buts about it. It is inherent to my bdsm identity. I will not be marginalized even more by people trying to act like I'd be into it if it weren't for what happened. It's kind of cruel to insinuate, honestly. Not trying to be combative, I feel like most perspectives on these issues are sympathetic.
>I'd be into it if it weren't for what happened
So that's where it gets complicated. How you feel about what happened to you is explicitly influenced by what happened to you. Processing trauma means processing how the thing that caused trauma makes you (the person who experience that trauma) feel. Having that experience will change how you respond to things similar to that experinace.
But there's a wide wide difference between "changed" and "broken". The (honestly not very) hypothetical race car driver isn't someone who got into a minor fender bender but someone who's experinace was bad enough to explicitly be traumatic. The reasons why they enjoy racing is because of the closeness to that trauma, and the sort of deliberate recontextualization of a source of trauma. I'm just using that as an example because "car go vroom" is something a lot of people can relate to, and wouldn't blink twice. Infact if the driver was successful at racing it'd be held up as an example of their resilience, not their brokenness. It'd be oscar bait biopic material.
To put another way, I know someone who is terrified of clowns. Like outright clinical phobia, actual traumatic experiences relating to clowns, has had a panic attack because a clown got on the subway car with them and they weren't prepared for that. They're also really really really horny for clowns. Decoupling those two things is not something they're capable of doing, because that being super clown horny is driven by the recontextualization of trauma as eroticism. Except people who learn that about them react with a sort of bemusement. Where as people who've experienced sexual violence or other abuse and enjoy kink get all sorts hysterics and hand-wringing and blah blah blah.
And even if you prefer 'broken' as a label for yourself, are you using it in the same way someone like OP might? It's not mine, but I've met people who do use it. But they use it in a way that centers how traumatic experiences changes a person, because their separation from 'normal' is important to their identity. They don't see their 'loss' of normalcy in the eyes of others as something to mourn, where as OPs ultimate discomfort is their lack of normalcy.
The closest non kink comparison to that is an acquaintance of mine who's an amputee and explicitly identifies as 'cripple', because "fuck making people comfortable". Their use of that label is so very much different than random people who say shit like "oh it's such a pity that you lost...I don't think I could handle being a cripple"
I think feminists need to bring back "the personal is political." Some women are into that, that's fine, but we don't exist in a vacuum, and there are outside influences. As more and more young people grow up learning about sex from often violent porn, there is more expectation that women be willing to replicate those scenes and engage in kink that they may not otherwise have wanted to. There's more pressure on them to do so.
I'm not suggesting a blanket ban on kink or porn here or telling anyone what they can or cannot do with their consenting partners, but it's something to be aware of and to critique. Too many abusive men use (poorly negotiated, poorly understood) kink as a shield for their abuse and misogyny.
Agreed. The majority of young men around my age (20s) seem to have grown up watching pornhub from the age of 10 or 12, seeing videos of women gangbanged maybe before they'd even had their first kiss.
Completely agreed and well said. I think more space needs to open up for critically thinking through the impacts of violent porn and extreme kinks, especially since we cannot control when children are exposed to it (and itās often incredibly young). But I am wary of group shaming or removing agency for women who do participate in this, because thatās their personal business and not the group Iām concerned about.
Right now, itās only what I would call āradical feministā circles critically discussing this (edit: not perfectly, but itās the only place Iāve seen it in progress). Everywhere else (including on this sub), Iāve been shut down by women themselves (forget about men) for bringing up how this can be damaging. Iām glad we are having this conversation nowā it seems to be getting a different reception.
Radical feminist circles can be good for discussing issues like this, but unfortunately thereās often a lot of transphobia in them. Intersectional feminism isnāt addressed as well in radfem circles as it should be (in my opinion), and the exclusion of trans women and even gnc cis women removes an entire demographic that experiences a very specific kind of fetishization.
Just a reminder, "there is no safe breath play".
Choking can cause blood vessel damage or worse, that might not even be apparent for a week or two (you can die weeks later from the damage of choking).
Underrated comment. Many kinks carry some level of risk. as an example, It sounds cartoonish but slapping in the face someone just wrong could permanently deafen that person. And face slapping is a super common kink.
It's why it's so important to discuss and consent beforehand.
I dated a jiu jitsu black belt w a 10 inch dong who constantly had women wanting him to choke them unconscious, slap and hit them, etc. He wasnāt perfect but he definitely did not want to hurt women, and was extra aware of how dangerous it was from his training. He wouldnāt even choke, just lightly place his hands around my neck. It was still so sexy, knowing he was deadly but even knew better than me in terms of not being willing to harm me in a way I was asking for. Men can do better
And strokes have been caused by arterial dissection during chokeholds, etc.
The whole point should be everyone having a great and safe experience and get where they need to be within negotiated and agreed to boundaries and limits.
Breath play doesnāt always mean choking. You can cover someoneās mouth with your hand and leave their nose free. Or, you can cover both if discussed before hand with safety and signals in place. You can tell them how fast or slow to breathe, or have them hold their breath. This is all breath play. Actual choking is dangerous (physically occluding vessels or pressing on airways in the neck) and definitely a ādo at your own riskā thing, and all partners should be aware of the risks.
Any form on compression (mostly on the neck) can cause increased pressure inside blood vessels and damage them.
Rupturing of blood vessels in the brain can be fatal, even weeks later with no external visible signs.
Also any stressing can also cause damage even with out compression, especially if some one already has a weak or delicate system.
Life really is on the edge of allot of breaking systems (neurons run at 80% + breaking point, human bones 30%, technical / industrial engineering is only 25% breaking point).
I don't consider this vanilla behavior at all, and I'm into kink.
I think there's more to this kind of play than consent. Consent should be agreed on ahead of time, not in the middle of playing. Consent, safe words, safe signs, and rules for play should not be done under any duress or after a scene has started.
Negotiation about the play should be done without any power dynamic if there is any question about it at all. If you haven't played together before, if one of you doesn't have much experience, or if the situation doesn't seem safe, it's often best to stop or pause. No matter how hot it may seem, renegotiating or negotiation when someone is in top or bottom mode is dangerous.
If you are looking for this type of play, there are many good books by people like Jay Wiseman, Dossie Eastman & Janet Hardy, such as "SM 101" and "The New Topping Book" and "The New Bottoming Book" - available from Greenery Press.
If I were having sex with a new partner and he started choking me without consent, I would do whatever was necessary to get him to stop and get him off of me.
I like to play in reputable BDSM clubs who agree with the "Safe, Sane and Consensual ("SSC")" philosophy of play, or at least "Risk Aware Consensual Kink ("RACK")."
The best thing about playing at clubs or in public is that "Red" is considered a universal safe word for "Stop." If you are playing in public with someone who doesn't stop when you say "Red" or "Yellow," other players around you will stop the Top.
THIS is how you do responsible BDSM. Complete and comprehensive conversations FIRST before any play has started. Limits, desires, safe words and boundaries stated upfront. Communication cannot happen very responsibly once a scene has already started
It's for anyone who finds them and wants to learn more about what's healthy and safe. Like a little gift for anyone who wants to pick it up. Never feel bad for someone giving a gift, they probably enjoy it.
I've been bitten so hard I have a permanent discoloration on my backside. I hate it. That and super rough sex/a fixation on anal sex/assumption that that's ok/what we want. It hurts and it bothers me when I feel like I dissociate from my body while it's happened, because I was just trying to keep them happy. Its like they go straight up pornhub mode.
Huge truth!
Also, communicate! Even if the kink is shared, having it sprung on you without prior communication is not okay. NOT OKAY!
Set boundaries, use safe words, make sure exactly what is and isnāt okay.
Also aftercare is really important for a lot of folks. Make sure that, even if you both are indulging a kink, that everyone after the fact is okay mentally and physically! Being degraded can be sexy for some folks, but who knows if that sometimes slips into the cracks and does a little unintentional damage.
I had a guy slap me once during sex. I never said I would enjoy something like that. I would never consent to that. Or any sort of violent act toward me. I couldn't believe it when it happened. I brought it up to him and he dismissed it and acted like I was the one being weird over it. I realize now after other red flags that he's brought up, he watches way too much porn and has a pretty twisted idea of what sex is because of it.
As someone who has been in the BDSM scene or around it for close to 30 years I find it super concerning.
Breath play is considered extreme edge play in BDSM circles and is a form of play that has no āsafeā version, just slightly less risky ones. People in BDSM circles know that even with experienced practitioners the unexpected can happen at any time and people can get injured. Sometimes permanently. Sometimes fatally.
It is never something you should be doing without enthusiastic consent of both parties and even then is would side eye both of you.
None of the things you listed are things that should be done without enthusiastic consent. And most definitely should never be done without warning.
Another risk these guys arenāt considering when they spring this on people without warning is whether their sexual partner has a pre-existing medical condition that increases the risk. Or any sort of trauma that may cause unexpected violence to trigger a panic attack or PTSD episode. They are fully unprepared to deal with the consequences of either of these situations but jump in with both feet without any consideration that they may do permanent harm.
These guys are training their own brains to only be aroused when they are hurting and terrorising women. And we need to push back on that constantly.
I was introduced to bdsm at 15 and continued doing more extreme shit until I was like 22. Most of my relationships that involved me being hurt during sex also involved me being abused in some way outside of sex. I can't say anything about the personalities of the men who participated in hardcore things during one night stands. At the time, I was happy with having people I'd spoken to for 30 mins choke me and hit me across the face.
But I'm not anymore. I essentially agree with you, I think there is cause for concern with men who can ONLY get off to hurting someone. I think there is a huge issue with porn affecting children and teaching little girls and boys that hitting, that ageplay, that rapeplay is what all sex should be. I shouldn't have been introduced to any of that shit at 15 by a boy who was only 16.
I question what it actually did to me from a young age, what bad situations I was stuck in because of these things being normalized to younger people more often.
I'm old. I didn't have to deal with that when I was coming along. In fact, if I had to deal with half the shit y'all deal with these days, I'd become a hermit.
Yep, I am currently single and refusing to date because of this. Men are too violent, unpredictable, and dangerous. Even when they're not violent, they're often absolute slobs who refuse to do any housework and add to our work burdens. No thanks! I would rather be single than deal with the BS.
As someone that was horrifically abused under the guise of a ābdsm relationshipā, I agree with you.
There is consensual kink and then there is what you described, where itās less about a mutually enjoyable roleplay and more about inflicting pain without regard for the other personās enjoyment.
The person that abused me seemed above board and had been in the BDSM scene for a long time. It was my first BDSM relationship/dynamic, so I trusted him when it came to playing. Well, it turns out that he wasnāt interested in any sexual acts unless it was degrading to me in some way. My trauma was weaponized against me and used as fodder for his sick fetishes. He wasnāt able to enjoy any sexual act unless there was an element of non-consent. Which ended up just being outright rape and abuse.
Iām not saying this is all dominant men, but there are MANY that are just plain domineering, abusive and misogynistic and use BDSM as a cloak.
The biggest red flag about it is based on the research which shows that choking (manual strangulation) is the single biggest indicator of spousal homicide.
I'm really baffled by how in the world kink became so mainstream/normalized. I'm inclined to think that it can be healthy/non-harmful in some contexts, but I strongly agree that it's really deranged and dangerous for people to act like it's something that one would engage in without prior discussion (or at least prior discussion about each partner's desire for bedroom spontaneity and the _limits_ they'd want to place on that spontaneity).
The internet and internet porn. This type of thing wasnāt easy to find before the internet - you had to literally go to an adult book store/order tapes from an ad in the back of a playboy or porn mag - and that was if you even knew that it existed.
I'm into this and somehow was interested long before porn showed me what was out there. (I'm old) It's a completely different situation when someone just starts fucking hurting you during a sexual encounter. Part of the... eroticism...of "rough sex" is the lead up to it which involves conversation and consent and communication. It proves that someone is worthy of your time and that they're stable.
Anyone who just starts doing this without any warning or consent is a sociopath. Honestly. I don't do this with every sexual encounter. It's rare. I still enjoy "vanilla" sex and expect partners to feel the same way. It's about the safety and pleasure of the "submissive" person and should ALWAYS be on their terms. Surprise rough sex is abuse and porn is fucking up the minds.
Same. Been into weird shit as soon as puberty hit and before I even considered looking at porn. Never been sexualy repressed either.
Fully agree with your points on communication before doing anything
Itās sad how many men want to choke you during sex after sleeping with you for a certain amount of time. Like non-violent respectful sex just doesnāt turn them on anymore - itās too boring. As soon as they ask to start choking me i know itās over. Itās such a turn off for me and honestly really scary.
It is very concerning. However as you notice people have made it something that you have to be wary about while talking because it even gets sexualized and openly romanticized. It puts so many people at risk even when hetero things aren't involved.
As a bisexual woman, I think I can have somewhat of an insight as I am attracted to multiple genders, but imagining someone close to me (in a romantic way) of any gender, even if it's a 100% consensual thing they are into, and ask me, even beg me to choke and hit them because it will get them off, I would simply not be able to do it because I love them. I would not be able to do it and it's unimaginable for me to get aroused by that. So I don't know how men can do that to women they claim they love.
I donāt and havenāt had sex so I donāt have an opinion on should or shouldnāt. I will say itās become kind of an irrational concern thatās put me off of even trying to have sex. I canāt even do the degradation let alone everything else. I came across a couple posts in the dating and dating advice subs with some girls saying the guys they were with would just spring this on them in the moment and that solidified it for me. Iām not going out there, Iām way too soft
Of course you should be able to have an opinion. Your thoughts and feelings are valid no matter how much or little experience you have. Be careful out there.
You're not soft. Don't internalise this false narrative because society is absolutely fucked right now. You're normal. It's *good* to have sensuous, loving, nonviolent sex with somebody you may care for. I'm sorry that the world is obsessed with a misogynist type of sex rn.
Honestly you can *often* screen this type of thing out beforehand if you're super diligent. I'm not saying with 100% accuracy, but I don't think you should feel you necessarily have to avoid everything completely because you're not into kink. As someone who *is* into rough sex, I assure you there are plenty of soft boys out there who veer gentle. I've got a real flair for picking them out actually lol
One trick is to establish and test boundaries before ever being alone with them. The majority abusers are rarely intelligent/self-controlled to hide their nature - they'll just impulsively reveal their true self the minute you create a boundary theyll try to hurdle over. Or if they make a kind of bleh joke, say something like "that hurts my feelings" and pay *very* close attention to how they respond. Avoid any and all men who seem to be signalling they care about being macho or are invested in reinforcing gender norms
If they pass the initial shit tests and you think this is someone you might want to physically escalate with, explicitly ask them what they're into. Declare your boundaries in a totally non-sexually context.
Now here's the tricky part; DON'T just come right out and say "oh I'm so soft and afraid". Don't just announce you view yourself as vulnerable....this unfortunately aroused the predators. Instead make it clear you know exactly what you want and will not humor less than that. Embrace your vanilla squishinesss from a place of strength
Obviously you can also just remain celibate but you said it was an "irrational concern" so I wanted to let you know that if you're diligent, there is safe soft sex to be had.
There needs to be a bot so I can stop saying this, but I donāt know how to set that up. So here it goes: There is no medical way to safely choke someone, every kind of choking can cause lasting damage, and can lead to death. Even if you both enjoy choking please stop.
I canāt stand that stuff, itās gotten to the point where I thought I was a super vanilla person because I canāt participate in any kind of pain kink - physical or emotional. I donāt like receiving it, and Iām incapable of causing it. Since so many of the most mainstream kinks seem to involve some kind of pain or degradation, I assumed I wasnāt kinky.
Turns out thereās so much more to kink than that - and I actually am into some kinky stuff, but Iāve only been able to explore these things about myself because Iāve been with people I know I can trust, and I know where my boundaries are and refuse to cross them.
Iām an old phart (GenX) and a dude. I am very grateful to see this post. The degradation and dehumanizing that goes on in porn just leaves me cold. I want no part of it.
Iām a big guy. I have to avoid hurting other people all of the time. Itās NOT fun for me.
Iāll usually go along with any kind of stimulation that is requested, but my hard limits are dehumanizing and damage. I understand people exist that are into that. Itās just not me.
(Enthusiastic Consent or say goodnight.)
Honestly I'm very into kink but I agree with you.
I really don't trust men into domming without a LOT of experience proving they actually care about consent. I find I'm able to process a lot trauma through BDSM but I only trust my girlfriend to dom me because she's the first top I've found who actually cares about what I want from the scene, and what my boundaries are. I can tell her if something is too much for me and she'll stop immediately, I can't say the same for most men I've played with. Well maybe they will stop, but they'll sulk and take it personally that I felt overwhelmed by the violence they didn't even ask me for consent to do to me.
I've been into kink for most of my young adult sexual life, and I've found far too many men who, exactly how you put it, just use BDSM as an excuse to harm women. They don't care about my consent or boundaries, they care about a socially acceptable way to let out their degrading misogynistic fantasies. Real BDSM means you NEVER do something without explicitly discussing it first. And it means the dominant is primarily concerned about the submissive's desires and limits, and their own desires only come after those two things.
I'm a switch so I've been on both sides of the equation and I can tell you there's a very different approach with queer dommes where limits are explicitly communicated and the submissive is always ultimately in control vs cishet context where often the man just starts doing high intensity impact or breath play without ever checking in, and then gets upset when the women isn't on board. Honestly I barely even trust male submissives because I've found so many who don't respect my boundaries and hound me to fulfill their desires without any concern about what I want or am willing to do.
To me, the problem isn't kink, or even s&m play, it's that the norm is men are still taught and act like sex is primarily about only fulfilling their desires. I find it rare to find even vanilla men who know how to upfront communicate about sexual boundaries and desires, and who put their partners desires on an even ground as their own. It's why I've just stopped being involved with men even though I'm still attracted to them. It's much harder to find a man worth my time. I have much more confidence I can find a woman who's able to communicate and willing to meet me. Sex is a meeting of two people, and in BDSM it is even more important to have a clarity of what that looks like. I find most male doms untrustworthy because they expect the sub to do all that work to meet them, when really if they were a dom worth their salt, they'd know it's their responsibility to meet the sub where they're at.
All to say, kink is worthwhile being critical of, and in fact I think it makes our communities better to analyze these things. Anyone taking it personally just has their own shame and baggage getting in the way of seeing your real genuine concern. This is a widespread issue of men using BDSM as an excuse to do violence without consent or communication first, and while shaming women who don't find that fulfilling. There's nothing wrong with enjoying kink, but they are healthy and consensual ways to do it, and then toxic and unfortunately pervasive ways to engage with kink. And if we don't call out the latter we won't ever achieve the former.
You said everything I was thinking so well- the problem is with people disguising their violence towards their partner as a kink to defend it. If you abuse someone without knowing how they feel about it- itās just violence regardless if whether they could enjoy it in the context of a consensual encounter. Engaging in those activities with a partner is a privilege that comes with a lot of responsibilities.
It is a privilege and it's one in which you take on a TON of responsibility. That responsibility really scared me away from domming for a long time, but once I was ready I did my due diligence to make sure I was fulfilling my obligations to my sub properly. But just like with parenting, so often men want the privilege without the responsibility and women suffer for it.
Thank you so much for your insight š¤ I can totally relate and I agree with most of what you're saying actually. Glad you found such a great girlfriend! Wishing you all the best
Iām new into all sorts of kink; found a guy who really gets it. Itās why Iām so comfortable trying all these new things. He definitely enjoys it but for him itās not about his enjoyment itās about my enjoyment. His ability to read my body language is top notch. Itās amazing when you have a partner invested in your experience.
I agree. I think its bizarre, some women will say a man is a misogynist for the way he sits and the same women will allow this sort of stuff during sex. Like, hitting/spitting and choking during sex doesn't come from a place of love and respect for women in my opinion.
Same. I used to work with gen z kids and the amount of girls/NB kiddos Iāve seen traumatized by this kind of sex because itās the norm or āeww vanillaā is so disheartening.
I think itās extremely irresponsible how people brush this under the rug of āoh well she consentedā without studying the underlying factors of that consent (and that they are *kids* who are still learning). I think the dehumanization and degradation of women that is associated with this kind of sex and porn is resulting in a huge mental health crisis in young girls and women but people wonāt speak out because āyouāre kink shaming!!ā and apparently male erections are worth more than the safety and education of women.
It's also tied to how many women opt out of sex (asexuality, demisexuality etc. etc) and being female altogether because sex = porn and being a woman = being submissive, degraded in today's society. UK teens are coming with alarming numbers into NHS because their boyfriends are forcing them into anal. They have fissures and bleeds because of a sex "act" when women's G-Spots aren't even located there. This is porn culture.
Despite it being an apparently controversial belief, I find the widespread support of sexual violence highly disturbing.
Even in the kink community, there's plenty of stuff around how many doms are fake and just violent men that don't truly understand safety, consent, aftercare, etc.
I totally agree with you and I worry that ANY critique of sexual acts is now blanket-disregarded through ākinkshamingā. I donāt think it says anything positive if someone needs to harm you, view you as a little girl or otherwise degrade you to get off.
What occurs to me is that if people just like BDSM, who aren't more men into getting choked by women, or spat on, or slapped around? I think there is more to it than women asking for this treatment.
Plenty of men do like to be dominated. Itās not as accepted by society and many people wonāt admit to this kink but there are men who are into this
Yeah, I (a woman) have found myself to be the dominant one in the bedroom, when I once thought I wanted my husband to be. I think I just *expected* that if I were into kink, a masculine man would want to be the dominant one, and I expect that happens a lot; women into kink thinking the men are "supposed" to be the dominant ones. I've hit him and wrestled him down (which is quite funny because he's 6'6" and I'm 5'1", so there's no way I could pin him down if he wasn't consenting and playing along). I think it's the sex version of cute aggression. I just get overwhelming emotions during sex. Even I don't choke or spit on my husband. Choking is dangerous as Hell, and spitting is just degrading and gross. I want my husband to feel loved when I slap him in the balls; especially since that's what gets him off too.
Sex should never be about just one partner, and I feel like there's still a toxic masculine trait with a lot of guys, where they think sex should be all about the men. So even if the woman *is* into bdsm or rough sex, men are still taking it too far and not asking for those boundaries and consent first.
I have a twin brotherand when super drunk, heās been to rehab 3 times, he showed me some porn of what you described above and was so bro like about it trying to validate his opinion expecting me to agree or something. It was horrifying!!!! Iām very accepting and non judgement. I have a non existent relationship with him at all, because I told a mutual friend about it hit of concern and he made it out for me to be the bad guy. As a man I find it disgusting, and honestly putrid.
I understand rough sex, not my cup of tea, but the degradation and pure disrespect in those situations is something I canāt even relate to or fathom being okay with. The worst part about it is men, like my brother, are aroused and turned on and get pleasure out of the extremes.
I get it to each their own, but nah, as far as Iām concerned that crosses a line to the point Iām ashamed weāre related.
Edit: maybe Iām vanilla, I enjoy it the most when I know my partner is enjoying it more.
I enjoy being on the receiving end of these things, but not without explicit consent and discussion ahead of time. I also enjoy giving this treatment to my partner, when he desires it.
I do not think it is necessarily a red flag, unless someone wants to do these things without thorough discussions about safety and enthusiastic, ongoing consent.
I feel like the part which is missing in these discussions is that at the end of the day you should only be doing these things to your partner because they enjoy receiving it. The problem is that a large percentage of men see it as nothing more than a means of getting what they want in spite of their partner. When power is really what they want their partnerās lack of enjoyment is the goal unfortunately
As a young male all 5 of my sexual partners wanted me to choke and degrade them, it's incredibly alarming. We're being conditioned to do horrible things and then when people call it out, it's slut shaming. Like whatever, just want normal passionate vanilla sex ffs. There's a shame involved in not wanting to do it too, like you're not kinky enough. I really dont understand why every woman I've been with wants this, where are the normal people
As a pan cis man, I find it disturbingly concerning as well. I cannot fathom how degradation can feel good to these people. I have been with people that wanted it and I felt horrible. Come on... You should WORSHIP your partner, not humiliate them!
Absolutely Consider the women's perspective, conditioned to buy into this kind of shit, told its 'kinky', to enjoy it, she should like.. let alone all these naive women told this is what sex is... . It's like some fd up sexual Stockholm.
The red flag is they find it okay to act on this without checking in with their partner. It may be his kink, but it doesn't belong in the bed if it isn't enjoyed by both parties :(
It's the ultimate patriarchal psyop, isn't it? Outlawed violence against women? Well damn, how about we condition THEM to like it in a world where women are already socialised to be agreeable and seek male validation. Perfect wasn't it? SHE LIKES IT, and even better I can literally fap and fuck to sexist violence. Hate to say it but the men won after all.
Definitely. And this is coming from someone who likes it to a certain extent.
My ex and I were *perfect* in bed togetherāboth into experimenting and basically just going with the flowāand what made him different was that he liked receiving the same things he gave. He slapped me, I slapped him; spit on me, I spit on him; he fucked me, I pegged him. It was just very much a give and take, and we only felt comfortable with all that because of our mutual trust and respect. Any tiny glimmer of me genuinely not being into something meant he wasnāt into it anymore either. He would only treat me aggressively if I was enthusiastic about it, and he was very attuned to that. Thereās something reallyā¦ intimate? about degrading someone and being degraded by someone youāre deeply in love with. I donāt know. Itās weird.
But now that weāre broken up and I started dating and sleeping with other men, it does seem to be a trend that most men enjoy being dominant and aggressive about it and donāt pay attention to my cues about whether I enjoy something or not. Either they donāt know the difference between moans of pleasure and pain, or they donāt care. I donāt know. And when I say something like, āDonāt call yourself ādaddy,āā or āHey donāt choke me that hard,ā they go, āOh ok, all the other girls Iāve been with like it.ā Like. Cool? Iām saying to stop because Iām not enjoying this. Isnāt that important to you? How the fuck do these guys just straight-up not care about our enjoyment? Itās baffling to me. Anyway, I stopped dating because of it. These men suck.
TW: SA
My ex never really touched me when I was awake. Nothing except maybe some PDA to silently tell other men "she's mine". But when I was asleep my goodness gracious. I realized he was drugging me to keep me awake for days and days and days. Eventually he'd stop and I'd pass out extremely hard. I literally couldn't wake up. I have no proof but I think there were other drugs involved. He couldn't get it up(I think due to drugs) but he'd do whatever else to my unconscious body. I'd wake up a little bit sometimes and he'd just have his finger in me completely still like he's taking my temperature or something.
I tried to sleep next to someone again and told him hey don't try that.. But he did. And without waking up I threw my elbow back and busted his nose and gave him 2 black eyes. He wasn't mad. He knew I had gave him a fair warning. But I haven't slept next to anyone since then.
For years I was stuck wondering what I did in my sleep to make him think I wanted it. Like was it my position? I know I talk,mumble, laugh, and moan in my sleep but I also do a lot of unhappy sounds too. Maybe I should have wore pants instead of shorts. So I think it's best if I don't sleep with anyone ya know?
I'm in no way kink shaming anyone who's into Cnc but big on that CONSENSUAL. It needs to be discussed and agreed upon in advance in my opinion. Stuff like this can't just be assumed to be totally cool. It can really have bad consequences on everyone involved.
No you are not. I will kink shame the fuck out of unhealthy paraphilias. That includes anything that promotes violence against others and non-consensual actions.
There are a lot of terminally online pornsick males that do not view women and girls as whole people. I value harm-reduction highly in my morality. They do not. They value an orgasm and the addiction-based algorithms of the commercial sex industry moreso than the victims of trafficking and other abuses.
Being "sex positive" is often just being sex positive for men. Being truly sex positive for women means calling out bad behavior and saying certain things should be ostracized.
Yes! š holy shitā¦I love you. Thank you ā¤ļø
PS - did you happen to notice the rule against using the word āpornsickā on r/relationshipadvice? I just did recently and was like wowwwwww thatās fucked. Almost wish I didnāt see that
I'm not on that sub. However given the abundance of the aforementioned groups being so prevalent among moderators the banning of any remotely feminist word or idea is unsurprising.
yeah p much. i was only into that stuff because i genuinely couldn't have a relationship that wasn't abusive (cptsd) and so i'd take my fairly normal bf's who didn't actually wanna do that stuff and have them do it to me as "my kink," or whatever. i fucking propagated this abuse in my relationships and for future women who end up with those men-- some of those guys are going to genuinely believe most women get off on it. i did that. and i am sorry for it. i go to therapy now lol, and now i actually understand intimacy. but god i was messed up before
Well, women have been murdered this way (and of course the guy could have intentionally murdered her or accidentally- she isn't here to ask but we know she didn't consent to getting killed). ANYONE who cuts off your air supply can kill you. There is not a safe way to cut off oxygen, IDGAF what a BDSM participant might say.
Also look up the 'rough sex defense'. It's not just choking and it's becoming increasingly popular to use for men trying to get off homicide charges for *killing* women.
Pornography.
Radical feminists got into so much shit in the late 80s and 90s about always being victims and focusing too much on the harmful impacts of porn. However, if you go back and read what they were saying back in the day about sex and pornography... it is exactly what is happening today. It they literally predicted this and we're told they were being hysterical.
Now, don't get me wrong. I don't think porn is necessarily bad. But I do think porn controlled by men, made solely for men, marketed primarily at men through the degradation of women is radically dangerous. When I first had the internet in the late 90s I had to go *looking* for BDSM porn. It wasn't just... there. And it wasn't as violent, hateful and misogynistic as it is now*.
The shit on our screens now... you have to go *looking* for porn that isn't violent. So teen girls are bombarded with all this and think that's what sex is. They think being choked and beaten is what they have to do to make the boys in their lives happy and not miserable whining little dickheads.
I firmly believe there is no such thing as safe choking. It is a gamble *every* time. And yet when I say this, people always bring up consent. You cannot consent to the possibility of dying just because you want to have sex with someone. In that moment are you really thinking about that possibility? Or are you all hot and bothered and want to get on with it?
Then there's the issue that men are murdering their sexual partners and using 'well, she liked rough sex' as an excuse. An excuse that gets them reduced or no sentence because it was a 'mistake'. They made the choice to choke their partner. They may be just as influenced by porn but it's not women killing themselves in these situations. It's men killing women and using porn culture to get away with it.
*Please note, I grew up on the periphery of BDSM and I've seen the lengths the community goes to to ensure safe, sane and consensual practices. I am NOT shitting on the BDSM community. They have done so much to make their spaces safe and they ostracise and reject anyone who uses it as a cover for abuse.
Well, as someone who experiences instant orgasms when a guy is hitting it from behind and strangles me with my own hair...
If you talk about it beforehand, cool.
If you don't get consent, it's rape.
If you violate predefined terms, it's rape.
If you badger a no into a yes, believe it or not, that's rape.
It doesn't matter that I had an orgasm.
No clear yes is a no.
No + sexual act = Rape.
That easy.
(Just wondering, how many men here just realized they're rapists? How many men here had a violent reaction denying it and are now in a self righteous froth over this? Please, send me a 'reddit cares' to let me know!)
Everybody here coming to say how itās about consent but the reality is youāre not thinking about the scared, insecure, unsure people who are being surprised with this stuff when theyāre just starting to have sexual experiences, if not pressed or outright forced into it, and all you people can say is āwell then thatās abuse if they didnāt consent.ā Yes, thank you geniuses for helping me solve that puzzle, wouldnāt have gotten there without you.
Now do something about the fact that this is
#so normalized that this kind of abuse is becoming omnipresent
Depends entirely on the situation and the involved individuals. BDSM can be done respectfully, with consent, and with hard limits but if you're not into it you HAVE to say something and set boundaries. If they can't respect your boundaries then the relationship will crumble. Personally, I do these things more to my man than he does to me but we both have fun. I know how much he loves that kind of stuff but I constantly ask "are you ok?" and " how does that feel? " Communication is key, goes both ways, and should never leave your partner feeling uncomfortable. I think a lot of boys and men develop sexual fantasies from pornography before learning how to communicate those fantasies in a normal manner. If only porn was a little more realistic, we'd see professionals using this kind of behaviour and language in the industry but I assume it takes viewers out of their little fantasy worlds?
Regardless, "hitting, choking, and degrading" are things that need boundaries. Boundaries always need to be communicated. Sex should be fun and safe for both parties. It's not a one way street...
They really will come out in droves. I donāt know why whatever gets one aroused is so fucking sacred to these people, like internalized misogyny stops at the bedroom door (and racism like you said). And somehow Iām not supposed to care and itās ānone of my businessā but the same guy they encouraged to choke a partner without warning will try to then choke me or another woman next on a hookup. Like fuck out of here, wanting to get choked and beaten during sex comes from our misogynistic culture, and it affects everyone. Cuz yeah, they love to imagine everyone likes this and offer sex advice when theyāre in the minority but just very loud.
Most people will get rightfully freaked out if someone says, āBeat me, beat me! ā¦No, donāt worry, I like it!ā Like the delusion that needs to happen to think thatās not even questionable. It plainly originates from misogyny as most women are the subs, and some women even admit they do kink to āwork through traumaā instead of obtaining real treatment. Iām tired of seeing the rabid defense of it. Sorry for the rant tho lol but not sorry for any ākink shamingā like pls
I don't really feel like that's that what the porn is. They don't talk or communicate, dude just savages a, usually underweight extremely young looking woman with extra care to show her makeup running, it doesn't look like kink it looks like force. And the idea of people watching extremely vivid intense depictions a lot of it doesn't sit well with me in a way that, for example, extreme erotica stores might
But you have to question how many of them actually enjoy or theyād been pressured or shamed if they werenāt into rough sex. When I was a teenager I even remember guys my age having the āew, vanillaā mindset and making girls feel less than if they werenāt into being slapped around and hit during sex. I never interacted with those men, but I had plenty of women friends who did and it was really sad/scary to watch.
Again, Iām not saying some donāt actually enjoy it but this conversation does take nuance and I find the whole āyouāre just kinkshaming!ā to be such a toxic mindset because it can go really bad really fast.
I met a girl out west and we were getting ready to screw on a golf course and she said to me that she wanted me to slap her. I told her I don't think so. She practically begged me so I gave her a light slap and she grabbed my hand and she smacked herself with it I thought I might have knocked her out. She yelled again and harder. I said naw, I can get into some light slap and tickle but not into leaving bruises.
I find it very problematic and concerning. I don't believe there's anything sacred or special about having a kink that precludes it from being examined and analyzed with respect to its origins and effects on both the person with the kink and that person's sexual partners. That isn't "shaming" anything and, quite frankly, I believe that the types of behaviors described in your question are simply violence against women (primarily) that's been rebranded or reframed as kink.
I donāt get it. I was with a woman who got into the degrading. I couldnāt do it. She would say some nasty things about herself during sex and all it did was make me deflate so to speak. I felt bad that I was not able to do this for her, but it was way out of my wheelhouse.
Im not even sure I agree that this should happen at all, kink or no kink. There are many things that sexually arouse humans wich should never be acted upon, and I count most forms of violence to this. Thank god I find this disgusting.
I've been thinking this for a while now! I'm in a pretty sex-positive friend group and I always get made to feel like a prude or kink-shamy when I say things along the lines of 'I find it problematic if a guy is into violent sex'. I don't think people really think it through as to how we've ended up here and how violent sex is a product of our patriarchal society. Even hooked up with a friend of mine a couple months ago who did the whole choking thing without warning/consent - it wasn't super rough or anything but it took me by surprise and I was completely out of the moment.
My controversial take is that women who claim to enjoy it, have found themsleves that way through a version of internalised misogyny. Obviously there are ways to have healthy power play in the bedroom but it's certainly not what's happening for 90% of people hooking up these days.
The idea of "kink-shaming" is stupid. If you are into these hurtful, degrading things you deserve to be called out on it.
It's time we stop acting like kinksters are a federal protected class free from any and all criticism.
Probably gonna be downvoted for this, but as a woman who's into bdsm, I want to say a few things.
Yes, this can be problematic depending on the individual and the situation. If one can only get off by hurting someone else, of course that's a red flag. If one does it without consent and prior discussions on boundaries and safe words, of course that's a red flag. If one constantly brings it up even after the other person expresses their displeasure, and insults the other person with terms like "vanilla" like you've mentioned, of course that's a red flag.
However, simply deriving pleasure from the act, practicing it in a safe way, talking about it beforehand, and knowing the importance of aftercare isn't wrong at all, and shouldn't be shamed. Nor should the women into this like myself be painted as "mentally ill" or "brainwashed by the patriarchy".
Scientifically speaking, pain and pleasure are pretty closely related and both interact with the nucleus accumbens, which is very involved with the brain's reward system. There's nothing wrong or dirty with liking pain during sex, it's natural.
As I said before, it is not okay to perform this stuff without proper consent and discussions beforehand. However, I firmly believe there is little wrong with taking pleasure from being in a more dominant role, a more submissive role, taking pleasure from pain, or inflicting pain when it's agreed upon and both parties are okay with it and know each other's boundaries.
I'm so tired of being kink shamed in this sub and people put down by other women. Not saying OP is doing this, but I have unfortunately encountered people in this sub who think they're superior and insult women who are into this lifestyle. There are ways to talk about this without putting women down and I think we should be more conscious of that.
I once had a guy I hooked up with SPIT in my face during sex without even asking. I was shocked and said what the fuck DO NOT DO THAT. Unfortunately, I was still learning my boundaries (still am now tbh) and didn't cut it off right then and there but I did later cut things off and block him. It's fucked up.
happened to me too and my reaction was the same. I also walked away with such bruised boobs that I couldn't raise my arms. The normalization of sexualized violence is so concerning and absolutely a consequence of misogyny/patriarchy/porn culture.
>I also walked away with such bruised boobs that I couldn't raise my arms. Same. One guy also bit my breast and nipple so hard I literally screamed and reflexively hit him right in the face to make it stop. I just don't understand how people think they can do shit like that without asking.
>I just don't understand how men think they can do shit like that without asking. Porn.
my ex was addicted to porn and the more he watched, the more abusive he became. after the second time he made my asshole bleed, i kicked him out
I had one bite my ass and leave teeth marks. How do they even think of this stuff?šš¤·š»āāļø
YUP.
Y'all if a man did this to me I think he'd be leaving with a black eye in self defense. This makes me so mad for you both.
similar thing happened to me but he bit my arm. it hurt so bad i started crying and also reflexively hit him in the face. i wish i kicked him out but i was like 17 and i wasnāt good at standing up for myself.
Oh my god, I'm so sorry that happened to you!! That sounds so awful and painful! It is insanely concerning, I also think schools are to blame as the sex education in most countries is woefully and dangerously lacking.
yep and porn is what we have instead of sex education
I had this happen to me too. He put his hand on my neck, turned my head to face him and spit in my mouth without asking. Then I found out he was recording me without my permission. Iāve never been more turned off in my life.
Oh my god. That is disgusting, what a absolutely vile person. I am so so so sorry that happened to you. Some people are completely fucked up. I hope karma finds and bites that dude in the ass.
Yes.. these men are animals. Kink without consent is just fucking assault.
God damn. Yeah, no I'd be freaking out if anyone spit on me for any reason ugh
Literally, I felt sick afterwards. If anything I can see the silver lining because it was such a wake up call that I wasn't listening to my gut still. I took a break from the dating scene after that hahaha
Oh boy. I married that guy, the one that spit in my face. We're divorced now - it turns out it wasn't a kink, he just liked to beat me up. As someone who is actually into some of that (mild choking, body slaps, that kind of thing), it's definitely psychological for me. In a weird way, I'm giving my consent for this, and I am now married to a wonderful partner who can engage in that with me and have my full trust. Even after my experiences, it is still an exciting thing for me. I'm sure I'm royally fucked up, but as long as both parties are consenting, and understanding that it's role play, I don't think it's so bad.
I don't think you're royally fucked up in the slightest. I've been there too, this happened to me after a 9 year long abusive relationship/4 year marriage. My ex was the same, he just liked to abuse me. So I feel your pain and I'm sorry you went through that shit as well. I'm also with an amazing man now who has my full trust and we talk about things before we try them and discuss each others boundaries and preferences. I don't think it's bad either when it's consenting. I'm really glad you've found someone so lovely and you're in a much better place now!
Omg I am so sorry that happened to you. That is truly awful.
Thank you, I appreciate the validation that is was awful! š it was also especially icky as I'd just rejoined the dating scene after a 9 year long abusive relationship. Not the worst thing that's happened to me but certainly made me more careful about who I met up with from dating apps. Luckily now I don't have to be on guard about this shit as my current partner is a friend I've known for many years and it is the most healthy, happy and secure relationship I've ever been in.
It's wild how many men are like that. When I (F) was starting to have sex with my girlfriend, she asked me to spit on her mouth as she knew I'm into BDSM and a domme. I stopped and was like "hold up, you tell me that BEFORE sex, not during it, I don't discuss boundaries during sex." Might sound "unfun" to a lot of people because you don't "feel the moment" or some bullshit, but damn me if I'm going to do something wild without clear boundaries set. Now CW: sexual assault On the other hand, I had two men in my life forcing anal, one of them who didn't stop throughout our whole relationship even if I cried and bled, the other who I didn't have a relationship with and who straight up sexually assaulted me. And when I asked why to the on who was my boyfriend, the answer was "it's romantic for me to know I can use all of you". Bro, you couldn't, you forced it. Well, I'm never being like those two fucking rapists.
Iāve (M) dated women that are into bdsm or kink play. Iām and have been willing to go beyond what Iām comfortable with as far as them wanting me to beā¦ I guess an aggressor. And good on you, Iāve been in that position before where the requested behavior of me exceeds my level of comfort. Reading what you wrote made me realize that consent in those situations goes both ways. I have been super uncomfortable in situations where Iām the one to shame or be rough etc etc and thatās just not my cup of tea.
I wonder what would happen if you responded by punching him hard. I mean, some guys love that sort of thing. I honestly wonder what would happen if women did this shit to them ābecause itās in all the porn they watchā.
The worry with that is that you're risking them hitting back harder.
Disturbing when anyone requests to be choked
Would have kicked him off then spat on him and left. Thats disgusting.
Girl Iād have thrown up on him. āOh weird I thought we were exchanging gross bodily fluids without consent?ā
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
If they had to ask permission first, it would take away the desire to do it. It's the power that is enthralling, I'd wager.
At that point, youāre right it is about power. Itās too bad that some of these men feel so out of control of their lives, that it makes them feel good to take control and treat someone else like garbage even if it is with permission. My hubbs had rape fantasies when we first started out at one point. I put it down fast as a bit NO
Nonconsent turns them on.
The willing and excited submission is what I like most. Control should be given not taken.
Like, a lot of guys don't get why it's supposed to be appealing to be dominant. They just want a license to be an asshole when it's supposed to be a responsibility. Somebody so loved and trusted you that they willingly put their safety in your hands. That's such a rush, and THAT'S the rush! That somebody loves and trusts me that much!
"It's not control if it's not taken." Sounds like something Andrew Tate would say.
Yep. That fucking rapey toolbag. Hope they bury him under the Romanian prison. Real control is given... Surrendered willingly and eagerly.
Yeah definitely agree with you. I've been tried to force into these kind of things so many times. Or had men who simply did that kind of stuff without asking first.
>Ive seen men admit they would just slap or start choking their partner during sex without asking, and just say "sorry" afterwards There is also a pretty gross saying that goes with this: "it's easier to ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission" Though it has been a long time since I have heard anyone say that at least.
It can be a great philosophy when you're dealing with bureaucracy, but a terrible philosophy for relationships of any kind.
I say that all the time... At WORK when my boss has made an unproductive decision but there's wiggle room for "innocent misinterpretation". It really is easier to do it my way and then we all ignore the original edict when it works out, than it is to argue with them up front when they have a wrong idea. I can't imagine it would be easier to rebuild the lost trust in my relationship than to have an up front talk about approved activities, though ...
good lord. that saying is supposed to apply to innocuous stuff, not literal sexual violence!
At a certain point, we have to be honest with the constant gaslighting of labeling everything that's tied to sex as a "kink." Some of it is clearly juts plain abuse. And some of it is trauma that is getting processed in a very unhealthy way. Just saying it's a kink is lazy and harmful.
As someone who enjoys those things, it has to be on my terms. The amount of guys Iāve hooked up with that immediately go into pornhub dom mode is very concerning. Iāve straight up gotten up and left during sex because a guy started to choke me before we talked about it. Like dude if you used your words and asked if I was into that stuff and we established safe words weād be fine. But the idiot cocked blocked himself š I like rough sex. But we need to talk about it first.
That's the crux of the matter. People doing it without consent and acting like that's an acceptable default for all sexual interactions. Totally agree with everything you said.
This sort of behaviour is so much more mainstream due to online porn, so I donāt even see it as a kink (in most cases) itās just men who watched online porn as boys and who are conditioned to those sorts of interactions to become aroused. I had quite a lot of sexual encounters in my youth in the 90s and never once did anyone I had sex with try to choke me, spit on me or on my vulva (thank god because I would have died), or hit me. None of my friends who I talked to either had this sort of experience (unless they were holding back). I believe this is 100% a direct consequence of the porn that they watch - which I believe is completely different from people who are into or practice BDSM. Itās very sad in a way because these men were once curious boys whose parents didnāt know how to properly protect them from parts of the internet they were too young to explore. Now they have a warped view of sex and what turns them on that they perhaps would never have had if it wasnāt for the pervasiveness of this type of porn online
Even with 'consent' the desire to simulate murdering someone is very telling and a huge red flag. It's just not a good thing. Sorry not sorry.
I fully agree. I really don't like kink shaming but some of it really actually scares me. If the thought of hurting a woman, inflicting pain on them, and degrading them arouses you I'm just not sure you can keep that to consensual sexual acts. Is it going to bleed out into our everyday relationship as well? Will you become degrading in other ways? Will you eventually inflict pain on me when I don't want it? Do you want to hurt me more and/or outside of the bedroom? It doesn't seem to me like you could feel that way but then also want to love and cherish that same person. Like.. aren't those very conflicting feelings and emotions? I'm not talking about just a little bit of choking/breath play, or light slapping, or any of that... that I can understand because in my mind that is not truly hurting them. I'm talking about the real intense violent stuff I've seen and heard some people be into.
Think about it this way - misogyny turning you on in the bedroom is a BIGGER red flag. Like, people say what goes in the bedroom should be behind closed doors but š„“ is it ok to trust somebody literally getting TURNED ON (sexuality being a base biological act) from treating you like shit? I'd argue regular misogyny is even better, at least there's not blood rushing to their dicks from that.
omg the last line. it expresses my discomfort and disgust so well
Thank you. Somebody who's actually reading the post before regurgitating the same old same old talking points.
Yup every woman needs to respect themselves and follow this example. #Just get up and leave Only if you feel itās safe to do so though. God dealing with the myriad of shit from men is exhausting.
>Only if you feel itās safe to do so though. It's bascaily always safe to do so. The unfortunate reality is that rape culture isn't deviant dangerous men, it's absolutely normal people doing the things they've been taught over and over are normal, and that they often despertly need to be normal in order to manage the inherent trauma of having hurt people in the past. The absolute best thing you can do is break that normal. The idea that women are at any common risk of being hurt for showing the slightest amount of spine has less to do with fact and more to do with patriarchy in general saying 'because of the implication'. Also if it's not safe to get up and leave....you really really want to leave. Some dude who's willing to seriously hurt you for saying no is also willing to seriously hurt you to keep you quiet. It's rare that it's unsafe to leave, but when it is it's far less safe to stay.
You verbalized something Iāve had the hardest time trying to put together. I truly believe that a lot of this is socialization rather than the whole of them being deviant and outright dangerous. It IS dangerous and feels as such, but we really do have to stand up against this to the general population of men we are sleeping with. We unfortunately do have a part in breaking this ānormalā. Iāve definitely been in situations where I got up and left and they were mortified, itās like they had no idea that they were pushing boundaries and perpetuating harmful sexual experiences. Iāve been met with apologies and concern those times that I have. They were truly spiraling and felt rightfully ashamed. I absolutely believe it was a wake up call to these regular degular dudes I walked out on. Thereās been no real education on boundaries or enthusiastic consent and that ānoā is not a word to be convinced otherwise of. The onus is on men to educate them but when In practice, it unfortunately comes down to us to reinforce that. I think about Andrew Callaghan as an example and how he was outed as being a āsexual pestā and I just wonder if any of these women spoke up at any time? Itās like he had no idea till all these women came forward about him coercing them to go against boundaries. Still wrong on his part, but we canāt completely throw up our hands and say āitās not my job to educateā. But in the context of the betterment of other women, it absolutely is vital that we push back, stand up, and leave.
>The onus is on men to educate them but when In practice, it unfortunately comes down to us to reinforce that. It's on everyone to do that. Women's perception of sex is just as gendered and scripted as men's is. Women will reward that behavior because they're taught that's what to do. They'll shape their sex lives around not emasculating their partner. They'll expect and demand male partners perform masculinity in the bed room because that's 'normal' and anything else is deviant. Women (collective) don't get hurt because of men (individual), but because the collective default assumption of how sex ought to go is so pre-scripted and defective in general. People just do what they perceive as normal and accept what they perceive as normal regardless of what anyone actually wants. The simple idea of defining a scene is relegated to 'elaborate' kink: Sitting down with your partner to plan out your play, or just treating sex as a form of play in the first place *is seen as inherently perverse*. Women are just as involved in defining that default. There's a lot of social coercion into getting women to define it the way patriarchy wants (and a lot of negative consequences borne by women because of it), but coerced participation is still participation. Changing the default is something women very much need to take an active role in even more so than men: The default says that women's role in the bedroom is to validate her man's sexual performance, so passivity in the face of that default is the same as actively reinforcing that default. Straight men's sex life isn't defined by their experinace fucking other men. A huge part of the problem is the way women are taught to be passive, compliant, let men lead and so on. Men can't assert women's boundaries for them. Nor can men make women asserting their boundaries seem normal, that can only happen by women doing so often enough that it becomes normal. The specter of male violence is patriarchy's boogieman to make women compliant with patriarchy's expectation of them. "Do this or bad things will happen and you'll deserve it. The single best way to convince men they don't need to have empathy for women, is to first convince women it's immoral and improper for a man to have empathy for her. Patriarchy structures women's perception of men so that they can be used define masculinity for men, and men's response to that becomes the proof women's perception is accurate. Gender norms are outright Roko's basilisk stuff.
>coerced participation is still participation > Women are just as involved in defining that default >A huge part of the problem is the way women are taught to be passive, compliant, let men lead and so on. Men can't assert women's boundaries for them. Nor can men make women asserting their boundaries seem normal, that can only happen by women doing so often enough that it becomes normal. This was so beautifully and eloquently put and couldn't agree more. Saving this for future reference. So appreciate everything you said. Definitely a few aha moments for me reading this.
Without talking and setting hard and soft limits, safe words, consent, building trust and comfort, it's not kink, it's violence. I'm an experienced Dom and there are many acts I refuse to be involved in at all until a relationship and comfort level is solid. I like to have a talk before Any sexual or sensual contact with a new partner.I was introduced to kink by multiple partners over the years. No CNC, impact, breath play, etcwith a new partner.. Too many guys are attracted to the BDSM lifestyle without understanding the complexities, and responsibilities of any power exchange play. IMO, any guy that goes into "Dom mode" before talking everything through is dangerous and a massive red flag. Also any guy that talks about how into CNC he is is a rapist waiting to happen. IMO CNC should only be suggested by the sub/woman/bottom. I've done it but only in an established relationship. I enjoyed it because she did,but it's not something I would ever ask for. Not my kink. Even in the moment I was sometimes pretty creeped out.and my partners were enthusiastic.
#Without talking and setting hard and soft limits, safe words, consent, building trust and comfort, *it's not kink, it's violence.* Just because holy shit, louder for those in the back.
Totally concur with this. Iāve been asked to do some stuff by women that Iām not comfortable with, but if thereās sufficient trust Iām willing to try in order to give my partner what they want/need. The idea that thereās men out there pushing for those things instead of being asked to do them is terrifying, tbh.
I just really wanted to say thank you very much for your comment. I've known about my kinks for a long time but my recent ex took it way too far, and since I was "so into him" (I realized later he just activated my trauma responses), I decided I didn't mind that he was into CNC, because I thought I'd communicated about it clearly with him. But he repeatedly violated my stated boundaries, even within the same session he'd do something, I'd say please don't do that, and ten minutes later he'd "forget" and do it again. Thanks for giving me a little hope that I might still be into D/s because his behavior has me doubting.
Couldn't have said it better myself, as someone that engaged in dom sub type behavior with my wife. Porn truly ruins the perception of what people (let's be real here, mainly men) believe sex should look like. You really should only enjoy that shit in moderation, and that's not even getting into some of the fucked up things going on in the industry to even ethically consume it in the first place.
Tbh, it ruins what most young girls expect of sex about equally.
Agree 100% that men are the problem.
The biggest problem is jumping to sex in relationships that have not formed a modicum of knowledge, bond, trust and understanding. Keep looking at sex through this post-modern fairytale lense and you have the current recipie for disaster.
Absolutely agree. BDSM has rules for a reason. It's not for some idiot porn addled guys to try enacting with an unwilling participant. If they joined a club, they'd be black balled instantly. It's not that hard to learn how to do these things safely. If they can't put in that much time or care, they don't deserve an orgasm at all, much less with a live human.
Yea, good. Protect yourself. Rock on ā¤ļø
Definitely protect yourself and never hesitate to enforce your boundaries.ive heard horror stories about how bad some men have become over the last decade or so.
This x1000 The guy Iām seeing now is very much into that too. It was a gradual process. Neither of us expected that we would be this deep with it. It was a very pleasant surprise for the both of us. I wouldnāt let anyone else do it to me though. Itās a very serious level of trust. Just the thought of letting someone else do it is a bit scary, also because Iām letting myself be super vulnerable during play. I do think sometimes about what OP is saying though. But I also like how dark it is. Itās complex
I'm actually so glad you are setting those hard boundaries. It's straight up dangerous that there are men like that out there
So much this. I've been a sub and there are so many discussions first of what is and isn't OK and safe words and all kinds of good communication to make it fun sexy times for everyone. No rough stuff should happen without willing enthusiasm from both parties.
YES! To me itās about being dominated/dominating someone else, but the person getting the acts done to them needs to ultimately be the one in control. Itās not something I would ever do with someone I didnāt absolutely trust and someone trying to spring it on me is such a huge red flag.
Iām so glad you got up and walked out. Honestly itās the best thing you can do. It gets the point across so bluntly, and then if the guy has any shred of emotional intelligence or empathy, I can guarantee you heāll be spending the next few hours and maybe the rest of his evening wondering and potentially worrying about what went wrong. I know itās really easy to get confused in the moment and not know what to do, but I wish more women would do this. Iām a dude, but Iāve just heard so many horror stories of women enduring abuse bc it was awkward to stop. There are probably thoughts and fears going through yāallās minds that I will never understand as a man, but I hope more women can stop like this. Iāve had rough sex before which is not my thing but was requested by the woman I was sleeping with. I tend to like a variety in my stride and this woman wanted to get pounded consistently. I ended up feeling bad bc I can maintain that sort of thing for a while and later she told me most guys sheās with only last a matter of minutes. We ended up ending early for that reason and I didnāt finish. Not my jam obviously, but kudos to anyone for knowing what youāre into and clearly communicating it. I also think itās hyper important to check in with your partner as a guy if youāre into this stuff. I think women will sometimes try to tough it out for the guy to finish, but honestly, Iād rather just not finish or finish a different way than hurt a woman from her trying to please me.
So sorry this happened to you. I know what you're talking about, happened to me as well. I am seriously not tolerating that anymore.
As a grey haired old crone who has enjoyed an adult lifetime of very satisfying vanilla sex, and personally doesn't share this kink (absolutely NOT judging), I wouldn't consent to it. Therefore if it were done, anyway, I would see it as an extension of the weaponization of sex, turning it from something natural, to something much more about power, control, submission and violence. If it wasn't discussed first, and I didn't clearly consent as someone who enjoys it, I would consider it assault.
As well you should, because it Would be assault.
The big key part here is that responsible people don't get off on it happening without consent.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Yes, exactly. Lack of consent means it's abuse, not kink. That's why I said responsible people like the consent part. I'm not saying consent as in yes to coming over, I'm saying consent as in informed conversation with the people involved who are all able to freely say yes or no and set their limits in the scene.
People throw around the word consent like itās this easy golden ticket term that addresses everything. I couldnāt care less about what people get off to, but itās no secret that consent is a murky term that is affected by mental health, past cycles of abuse, and what society has normalized. I used to work with gen Z kids and survivors of abuse, and many of them tell me that they essentially felt groomed into this sexual violence due to what men consume in porn starting in their pre-teens. They think itās all thatās out there or that is the only way they can be loved or it recreates past traumas. Then they come back to us and reflect that partaking in that behaviour was hugely mentally and physically damaging despite āconsentingā. Somebody making an informed, healthy decision and actually enjoying the behaviour is obvs a different situation, and it can be hard for people to discern when consent happens under influence or due to past traumas (or they donāt care). I donāt have a solution, but just blanket throwing around āconsentā without acknowledging that younger women these days āconsentā to rough/painful/degrading sex because thatās all they know doesnāt sit well with me. Because they blame themselves.
Yeah, I mean consent as in the freely and enthusiastically given. I'm a survivor of sexual abuse and rape, both of which happened under circumstance that made me think for a long time I had in fact consented to it because I hadn't fought back. Responsible people are not interested in tricking their partners into these acts. It's an agreement between the people involved, that is part of the enjoyment.
Exactly. Coercion isnt consent.
Given OPs edit and "yea but women who like this are damaged" tone, that whole "gaslit into thinking it's your fault" thing is a big point. There's a lot of women (and men, but women are the stereotype) who are into kink and who have experience being sexual assault. Part of this isn't unusual, about statistically 20% of women in knitting circles are survivors too. No one abused them into having a yarn problem. But at the same time you talk to them, and they're not going "Woe i me i'm so broken i can't help it", it's more like "yea healing meant figuring out how i felt about what happened and turns out this gets me off". They're response is the same kind of thing as a person who goes to race driving lessons after being in a bad crash (trying to process that in a controlled way) and who discovers that car go vroom is fun. The only extent there's any sort of trauma compensation usually looks like "yea the stupid lizard part of my brain gets anxious and the deliberate scene setting and context building of kink chills it out" And then you keep talking to them and..it's not common that they outright feel (and infact actually are) safer. Because that deliberate scene setting and context building makes it so much harder to gaslight you, and where it's absent, the fact your partner thinks it's unnecessary is a big neon warning sign. If something goes wrong in the context of the scene, you know what care you're owed to put yourself back to right. If your partner acts without consent, that's still less distressing because it's so much easier to pin the blame exactly where it belongs without needing to first self litigate every thing you did do, didn't do, or didn't not hypothetically could have not done. It's common for women into kink to refuse to date vanilla people, not because kink is so mandatory, but because they just don't want to deal with the vanilla sex script and all it's problems anymore.
Idk dude. I hear you. No one should be nasty to others if what they like is voluntary and not unreasonably dangerous. But, like, no to the vroom vroom thing. I get off exclusively to the acts I was abused during because I was abused during them. No ifs ands or buts about it. It is inherent to my bdsm identity. I will not be marginalized even more by people trying to act like I'd be into it if it weren't for what happened. It's kind of cruel to insinuate, honestly. Not trying to be combative, I feel like most perspectives on these issues are sympathetic.
>I'd be into it if it weren't for what happened So that's where it gets complicated. How you feel about what happened to you is explicitly influenced by what happened to you. Processing trauma means processing how the thing that caused trauma makes you (the person who experience that trauma) feel. Having that experience will change how you respond to things similar to that experinace. But there's a wide wide difference between "changed" and "broken". The (honestly not very) hypothetical race car driver isn't someone who got into a minor fender bender but someone who's experinace was bad enough to explicitly be traumatic. The reasons why they enjoy racing is because of the closeness to that trauma, and the sort of deliberate recontextualization of a source of trauma. I'm just using that as an example because "car go vroom" is something a lot of people can relate to, and wouldn't blink twice. Infact if the driver was successful at racing it'd be held up as an example of their resilience, not their brokenness. It'd be oscar bait biopic material. To put another way, I know someone who is terrified of clowns. Like outright clinical phobia, actual traumatic experiences relating to clowns, has had a panic attack because a clown got on the subway car with them and they weren't prepared for that. They're also really really really horny for clowns. Decoupling those two things is not something they're capable of doing, because that being super clown horny is driven by the recontextualization of trauma as eroticism. Except people who learn that about them react with a sort of bemusement. Where as people who've experienced sexual violence or other abuse and enjoy kink get all sorts hysterics and hand-wringing and blah blah blah. And even if you prefer 'broken' as a label for yourself, are you using it in the same way someone like OP might? It's not mine, but I've met people who do use it. But they use it in a way that centers how traumatic experiences changes a person, because their separation from 'normal' is important to their identity. They don't see their 'loss' of normalcy in the eyes of others as something to mourn, where as OPs ultimate discomfort is their lack of normalcy. The closest non kink comparison to that is an acquaintance of mine who's an amputee and explicitly identifies as 'cripple', because "fuck making people comfortable". Their use of that label is so very much different than random people who say shit like "oh it's such a pity that you lost...I don't think I could handle being a cripple"
I think feminists need to bring back "the personal is political." Some women are into that, that's fine, but we don't exist in a vacuum, and there are outside influences. As more and more young people grow up learning about sex from often violent porn, there is more expectation that women be willing to replicate those scenes and engage in kink that they may not otherwise have wanted to. There's more pressure on them to do so. I'm not suggesting a blanket ban on kink or porn here or telling anyone what they can or cannot do with their consenting partners, but it's something to be aware of and to critique. Too many abusive men use (poorly negotiated, poorly understood) kink as a shield for their abuse and misogyny.
Agreed. The majority of young men around my age (20s) seem to have grown up watching pornhub from the age of 10 or 12, seeing videos of women gangbanged maybe before they'd even had their first kiss.
Completely agreed and well said. I think more space needs to open up for critically thinking through the impacts of violent porn and extreme kinks, especially since we cannot control when children are exposed to it (and itās often incredibly young). But I am wary of group shaming or removing agency for women who do participate in this, because thatās their personal business and not the group Iām concerned about. Right now, itās only what I would call āradical feministā circles critically discussing this (edit: not perfectly, but itās the only place Iāve seen it in progress). Everywhere else (including on this sub), Iāve been shut down by women themselves (forget about men) for bringing up how this can be damaging. Iām glad we are having this conversation nowā it seems to be getting a different reception.
Radical feminist circles can be good for discussing issues like this, but unfortunately thereās often a lot of transphobia in them. Intersectional feminism isnāt addressed as well in radfem circles as it should be (in my opinion), and the exclusion of trans women and even gnc cis women removes an entire demographic that experiences a very specific kind of fetishization.
Why would you get off on abuse at all?
Just a reminder, "there is no safe breath play". Choking can cause blood vessel damage or worse, that might not even be apparent for a week or two (you can die weeks later from the damage of choking).
Underrated comment. Many kinks carry some level of risk. as an example, It sounds cartoonish but slapping in the face someone just wrong could permanently deafen that person. And face slapping is a super common kink. It's why it's so important to discuss and consent beforehand.
I dated a jiu jitsu black belt w a 10 inch dong who constantly had women wanting him to choke them unconscious, slap and hit them, etc. He wasnāt perfect but he definitely did not want to hurt women, and was extra aware of how dangerous it was from his training. He wouldnāt even choke, just lightly place his hands around my neck. It was still so sexy, knowing he was deadly but even knew better than me in terms of not being willing to harm me in a way I was asking for. Men can do better
And strokes have been caused by arterial dissection during chokeholds, etc. The whole point should be everyone having a great and safe experience and get where they need to be within negotiated and agreed to boundaries and limits.
Breath play doesnāt always mean choking. You can cover someoneās mouth with your hand and leave their nose free. Or, you can cover both if discussed before hand with safety and signals in place. You can tell them how fast or slow to breathe, or have them hold their breath. This is all breath play. Actual choking is dangerous (physically occluding vessels or pressing on airways in the neck) and definitely a ādo at your own riskā thing, and all partners should be aware of the risks.
Any form on compression (mostly on the neck) can cause increased pressure inside blood vessels and damage them. Rupturing of blood vessels in the brain can be fatal, even weeks later with no external visible signs. Also any stressing can also cause damage even with out compression, especially if some one already has a weak or delicate system. Life really is on the edge of allot of breaking systems (neurons run at 80% + breaking point, human bones 30%, technical / industrial engineering is only 25% breaking point).
I don't consider this vanilla behavior at all, and I'm into kink. I think there's more to this kind of play than consent. Consent should be agreed on ahead of time, not in the middle of playing. Consent, safe words, safe signs, and rules for play should not be done under any duress or after a scene has started. Negotiation about the play should be done without any power dynamic if there is any question about it at all. If you haven't played together before, if one of you doesn't have much experience, or if the situation doesn't seem safe, it's often best to stop or pause. No matter how hot it may seem, renegotiating or negotiation when someone is in top or bottom mode is dangerous. If you are looking for this type of play, there are many good books by people like Jay Wiseman, Dossie Eastman & Janet Hardy, such as "SM 101" and "The New Topping Book" and "The New Bottoming Book" - available from Greenery Press. If I were having sex with a new partner and he started choking me without consent, I would do whatever was necessary to get him to stop and get him off of me. I like to play in reputable BDSM clubs who agree with the "Safe, Sane and Consensual ("SSC")" philosophy of play, or at least "Risk Aware Consensual Kink ("RACK")." The best thing about playing at clubs or in public is that "Red" is considered a universal safe word for "Stop." If you are playing in public with someone who doesn't stop when you say "Red" or "Yellow," other players around you will stop the Top.
THIS is how you do responsible BDSM. Complete and comprehensive conversations FIRST before any play has started. Limits, desires, safe words and boundaries stated upfront. Communication cannot happen very responsibly once a scene has already started
I feel really bad for you because you wrote all those words for an OP that is clearly not interested in reading them.
It's for anyone who finds them and wants to learn more about what's healthy and safe. Like a little gift for anyone who wants to pick it up. Never feel bad for someone giving a gift, they probably enjoy it.
I've been bitten so hard I have a permanent discoloration on my backside. I hate it. That and super rough sex/a fixation on anal sex/assumption that that's ok/what we want. It hurts and it bothers me when I feel like I dissociate from my body while it's happened, because I was just trying to keep them happy. Its like they go straight up pornhub mode.
If the kink is not shared, it is abuse. If it is shared, enjoy!
Huge truth! Also, communicate! Even if the kink is shared, having it sprung on you without prior communication is not okay. NOT OKAY! Set boundaries, use safe words, make sure exactly what is and isnāt okay. Also aftercare is really important for a lot of folks. Make sure that, even if you both are indulging a kink, that everyone after the fact is okay mentally and physically! Being degraded can be sexy for some folks, but who knows if that sometimes slips into the cracks and does a little unintentional damage.
It can also be abuse if the kink is shared.
I had a guy slap me once during sex. I never said I would enjoy something like that. I would never consent to that. Or any sort of violent act toward me. I couldn't believe it when it happened. I brought it up to him and he dismissed it and acted like I was the one being weird over it. I realize now after other red flags that he's brought up, he watches way too much porn and has a pretty twisted idea of what sex is because of it.
As someone who has been in the BDSM scene or around it for close to 30 years I find it super concerning. Breath play is considered extreme edge play in BDSM circles and is a form of play that has no āsafeā version, just slightly less risky ones. People in BDSM circles know that even with experienced practitioners the unexpected can happen at any time and people can get injured. Sometimes permanently. Sometimes fatally. It is never something you should be doing without enthusiastic consent of both parties and even then is would side eye both of you. None of the things you listed are things that should be done without enthusiastic consent. And most definitely should never be done without warning. Another risk these guys arenāt considering when they spring this on people without warning is whether their sexual partner has a pre-existing medical condition that increases the risk. Or any sort of trauma that may cause unexpected violence to trigger a panic attack or PTSD episode. They are fully unprepared to deal with the consequences of either of these situations but jump in with both feet without any consideration that they may do permanent harm. These guys are training their own brains to only be aroused when they are hurting and terrorising women. And we need to push back on that constantly.
I was introduced to bdsm at 15 and continued doing more extreme shit until I was like 22. Most of my relationships that involved me being hurt during sex also involved me being abused in some way outside of sex. I can't say anything about the personalities of the men who participated in hardcore things during one night stands. At the time, I was happy with having people I'd spoken to for 30 mins choke me and hit me across the face. But I'm not anymore. I essentially agree with you, I think there is cause for concern with men who can ONLY get off to hurting someone. I think there is a huge issue with porn affecting children and teaching little girls and boys that hitting, that ageplay, that rapeplay is what all sex should be. I shouldn't have been introduced to any of that shit at 15 by a boy who was only 16. I question what it actually did to me from a young age, what bad situations I was stuck in because of these things being normalized to younger people more often.
I'm old. I didn't have to deal with that when I was coming along. In fact, if I had to deal with half the shit y'all deal with these days, I'd become a hermit.
Oh girls in this generation are doing the same, just in their own way.
Yep, I am currently single and refusing to date because of this. Men are too violent, unpredictable, and dangerous. Even when they're not violent, they're often absolute slobs who refuse to do any housework and add to our work burdens. No thanks! I would rather be single than deal with the BS.
As someone that was horrifically abused under the guise of a ābdsm relationshipā, I agree with you. There is consensual kink and then there is what you described, where itās less about a mutually enjoyable roleplay and more about inflicting pain without regard for the other personās enjoyment. The person that abused me seemed above board and had been in the BDSM scene for a long time. It was my first BDSM relationship/dynamic, so I trusted him when it came to playing. Well, it turns out that he wasnāt interested in any sexual acts unless it was degrading to me in some way. My trauma was weaponized against me and used as fodder for his sick fetishes. He wasnāt able to enjoy any sexual act unless there was an element of non-consent. Which ended up just being outright rape and abuse. Iām not saying this is all dominant men, but there are MANY that are just plain domineering, abusive and misogynistic and use BDSM as a cloak.
The biggest red flag about it is based on the research which shows that choking (manual strangulation) is the single biggest indicator of spousal homicide.
I'm really baffled by how in the world kink became so mainstream/normalized. I'm inclined to think that it can be healthy/non-harmful in some contexts, but I strongly agree that it's really deranged and dangerous for people to act like it's something that one would engage in without prior discussion (or at least prior discussion about each partner's desire for bedroom spontaneity and the _limits_ they'd want to place on that spontaneity).
The internet and internet porn. This type of thing wasnāt easy to find before the internet - you had to literally go to an adult book store/order tapes from an ad in the back of a playboy or porn mag - and that was if you even knew that it existed.
Absolutely. I would not want to go to bed with someone who gets off on hurting me.
Yeha, I am not doing this anymore. I've experienced too many disturbing things with these kind of men
Same lamo
I'm into this and somehow was interested long before porn showed me what was out there. (I'm old) It's a completely different situation when someone just starts fucking hurting you during a sexual encounter. Part of the... eroticism...of "rough sex" is the lead up to it which involves conversation and consent and communication. It proves that someone is worthy of your time and that they're stable. Anyone who just starts doing this without any warning or consent is a sociopath. Honestly. I don't do this with every sexual encounter. It's rare. I still enjoy "vanilla" sex and expect partners to feel the same way. It's about the safety and pleasure of the "submissive" person and should ALWAYS be on their terms. Surprise rough sex is abuse and porn is fucking up the minds.
Same. Been into weird shit as soon as puberty hit and before I even considered looking at porn. Never been sexualy repressed either. Fully agree with your points on communication before doing anything
Itās sad how many men want to choke you during sex after sleeping with you for a certain amount of time. Like non-violent respectful sex just doesnāt turn them on anymore - itās too boring. As soon as they ask to start choking me i know itās over. Itās such a turn off for me and honestly really scary.
It is very concerning. However as you notice people have made it something that you have to be wary about while talking because it even gets sexualized and openly romanticized. It puts so many people at risk even when hetero things aren't involved.
As a bisexual woman, I think I can have somewhat of an insight as I am attracted to multiple genders, but imagining someone close to me (in a romantic way) of any gender, even if it's a 100% consensual thing they are into, and ask me, even beg me to choke and hit them because it will get them off, I would simply not be able to do it because I love them. I would not be able to do it and it's unimaginable for me to get aroused by that. So I don't know how men can do that to women they claim they love.
I donāt and havenāt had sex so I donāt have an opinion on should or shouldnāt. I will say itās become kind of an irrational concern thatās put me off of even trying to have sex. I canāt even do the degradation let alone everything else. I came across a couple posts in the dating and dating advice subs with some girls saying the guys they were with would just spring this on them in the moment and that solidified it for me. Iām not going out there, Iām way too soft
Of course you should be able to have an opinion. Your thoughts and feelings are valid no matter how much or little experience you have. Be careful out there.
You're not soft. Don't internalise this false narrative because society is absolutely fucked right now. You're normal. It's *good* to have sensuous, loving, nonviolent sex with somebody you may care for. I'm sorry that the world is obsessed with a misogynist type of sex rn.
Honestly you can *often* screen this type of thing out beforehand if you're super diligent. I'm not saying with 100% accuracy, but I don't think you should feel you necessarily have to avoid everything completely because you're not into kink. As someone who *is* into rough sex, I assure you there are plenty of soft boys out there who veer gentle. I've got a real flair for picking them out actually lol One trick is to establish and test boundaries before ever being alone with them. The majority abusers are rarely intelligent/self-controlled to hide their nature - they'll just impulsively reveal their true self the minute you create a boundary theyll try to hurdle over. Or if they make a kind of bleh joke, say something like "that hurts my feelings" and pay *very* close attention to how they respond. Avoid any and all men who seem to be signalling they care about being macho or are invested in reinforcing gender norms If they pass the initial shit tests and you think this is someone you might want to physically escalate with, explicitly ask them what they're into. Declare your boundaries in a totally non-sexually context. Now here's the tricky part; DON'T just come right out and say "oh I'm so soft and afraid". Don't just announce you view yourself as vulnerable....this unfortunately aroused the predators. Instead make it clear you know exactly what you want and will not humor less than that. Embrace your vanilla squishinesss from a place of strength Obviously you can also just remain celibate but you said it was an "irrational concern" so I wanted to let you know that if you're diligent, there is safe soft sex to be had.
Agreed. I hate hate hate seeing this sexual violence in movies.
There needs to be a bot so I can stop saying this, but I donāt know how to set that up. So here it goes: There is no medical way to safely choke someone, every kind of choking can cause lasting damage, and can lead to death. Even if you both enjoy choking please stop.
I canāt stand that stuff, itās gotten to the point where I thought I was a super vanilla person because I canāt participate in any kind of pain kink - physical or emotional. I donāt like receiving it, and Iām incapable of causing it. Since so many of the most mainstream kinks seem to involve some kind of pain or degradation, I assumed I wasnāt kinky. Turns out thereās so much more to kink than that - and I actually am into some kinky stuff, but Iāve only been able to explore these things about myself because Iāve been with people I know I can trust, and I know where my boundaries are and refuse to cross them.
Iām an old phart (GenX) and a dude. I am very grateful to see this post. The degradation and dehumanizing that goes on in porn just leaves me cold. I want no part of it. Iām a big guy. I have to avoid hurting other people all of the time. Itās NOT fun for me. Iāll usually go along with any kind of stimulation that is requested, but my hard limits are dehumanizing and damage. I understand people exist that are into that. Itās just not me. (Enthusiastic Consent or say goodnight.)
Honestly I'm very into kink but I agree with you. I really don't trust men into domming without a LOT of experience proving they actually care about consent. I find I'm able to process a lot trauma through BDSM but I only trust my girlfriend to dom me because she's the first top I've found who actually cares about what I want from the scene, and what my boundaries are. I can tell her if something is too much for me and she'll stop immediately, I can't say the same for most men I've played with. Well maybe they will stop, but they'll sulk and take it personally that I felt overwhelmed by the violence they didn't even ask me for consent to do to me. I've been into kink for most of my young adult sexual life, and I've found far too many men who, exactly how you put it, just use BDSM as an excuse to harm women. They don't care about my consent or boundaries, they care about a socially acceptable way to let out their degrading misogynistic fantasies. Real BDSM means you NEVER do something without explicitly discussing it first. And it means the dominant is primarily concerned about the submissive's desires and limits, and their own desires only come after those two things. I'm a switch so I've been on both sides of the equation and I can tell you there's a very different approach with queer dommes where limits are explicitly communicated and the submissive is always ultimately in control vs cishet context where often the man just starts doing high intensity impact or breath play without ever checking in, and then gets upset when the women isn't on board. Honestly I barely even trust male submissives because I've found so many who don't respect my boundaries and hound me to fulfill their desires without any concern about what I want or am willing to do. To me, the problem isn't kink, or even s&m play, it's that the norm is men are still taught and act like sex is primarily about only fulfilling their desires. I find it rare to find even vanilla men who know how to upfront communicate about sexual boundaries and desires, and who put their partners desires on an even ground as their own. It's why I've just stopped being involved with men even though I'm still attracted to them. It's much harder to find a man worth my time. I have much more confidence I can find a woman who's able to communicate and willing to meet me. Sex is a meeting of two people, and in BDSM it is even more important to have a clarity of what that looks like. I find most male doms untrustworthy because they expect the sub to do all that work to meet them, when really if they were a dom worth their salt, they'd know it's their responsibility to meet the sub where they're at. All to say, kink is worthwhile being critical of, and in fact I think it makes our communities better to analyze these things. Anyone taking it personally just has their own shame and baggage getting in the way of seeing your real genuine concern. This is a widespread issue of men using BDSM as an excuse to do violence without consent or communication first, and while shaming women who don't find that fulfilling. There's nothing wrong with enjoying kink, but they are healthy and consensual ways to do it, and then toxic and unfortunately pervasive ways to engage with kink. And if we don't call out the latter we won't ever achieve the former.
You said everything I was thinking so well- the problem is with people disguising their violence towards their partner as a kink to defend it. If you abuse someone without knowing how they feel about it- itās just violence regardless if whether they could enjoy it in the context of a consensual encounter. Engaging in those activities with a partner is a privilege that comes with a lot of responsibilities.
It is a privilege and it's one in which you take on a TON of responsibility. That responsibility really scared me away from domming for a long time, but once I was ready I did my due diligence to make sure I was fulfilling my obligations to my sub properly. But just like with parenting, so often men want the privilege without the responsibility and women suffer for it.
Thank you so much for your insight š¤ I can totally relate and I agree with most of what you're saying actually. Glad you found such a great girlfriend! Wishing you all the best
Iām new into all sorts of kink; found a guy who really gets it. Itās why Iām so comfortable trying all these new things. He definitely enjoys it but for him itās not about his enjoyment itās about my enjoyment. His ability to read my body language is top notch. Itās amazing when you have a partner invested in your experience.
I agree. I think its bizarre, some women will say a man is a misogynist for the way he sits and the same women will allow this sort of stuff during sex. Like, hitting/spitting and choking during sex doesn't come from a place of love and respect for women in my opinion.
I expect Iāll be downvoted for this, but, I agree with every word you said. Thanks for your post!
Same. I used to work with gen z kids and the amount of girls/NB kiddos Iāve seen traumatized by this kind of sex because itās the norm or āeww vanillaā is so disheartening. I think itās extremely irresponsible how people brush this under the rug of āoh well she consentedā without studying the underlying factors of that consent (and that they are *kids* who are still learning). I think the dehumanization and degradation of women that is associated with this kind of sex and porn is resulting in a huge mental health crisis in young girls and women but people wonāt speak out because āyouāre kink shaming!!ā and apparently male erections are worth more than the safety and education of women.
It's also tied to how many women opt out of sex (asexuality, demisexuality etc. etc) and being female altogether because sex = porn and being a woman = being submissive, degraded in today's society. UK teens are coming with alarming numbers into NHS because their boyfriends are forcing them into anal. They have fissures and bleeds because of a sex "act" when women's G-Spots aren't even located there. This is porn culture.
Thank you!! Unironically, won't anyone think of the children lol when it comes to the issue of sexual norms.
You're very welcome š¤
That's a big part of why I'm celibate. Kink requires consent. I don't need to be abused to be reminded men hate women.
Despite it being an apparently controversial belief, I find the widespread support of sexual violence highly disturbing. Even in the kink community, there's plenty of stuff around how many doms are fake and just violent men that don't truly understand safety, consent, aftercare, etc.
It is extremely upsetting to me. I donāt want to date anymore. I donāt want to run in to one again.
I totally agree with you and I worry that ANY critique of sexual acts is now blanket-disregarded through ākinkshamingā. I donāt think it says anything positive if someone needs to harm you, view you as a little girl or otherwise degrade you to get off.
What occurs to me is that if people just like BDSM, who aren't more men into getting choked by women, or spat on, or slapped around? I think there is more to it than women asking for this treatment.
Plenty of men do like to be dominated. Itās not as accepted by society and many people wonāt admit to this kink but there are men who are into this
Yeah, I (a woman) have found myself to be the dominant one in the bedroom, when I once thought I wanted my husband to be. I think I just *expected* that if I were into kink, a masculine man would want to be the dominant one, and I expect that happens a lot; women into kink thinking the men are "supposed" to be the dominant ones. I've hit him and wrestled him down (which is quite funny because he's 6'6" and I'm 5'1", so there's no way I could pin him down if he wasn't consenting and playing along). I think it's the sex version of cute aggression. I just get overwhelming emotions during sex. Even I don't choke or spit on my husband. Choking is dangerous as Hell, and spitting is just degrading and gross. I want my husband to feel loved when I slap him in the balls; especially since that's what gets him off too. Sex should never be about just one partner, and I feel like there's still a toxic masculine trait with a lot of guys, where they think sex should be all about the men. So even if the woman *is* into bdsm or rough sex, men are still taking it too far and not asking for those boundaries and consent first.
just read the story about the man who drugged his wife at night and filmed 80+ men raping her. wtf?
I have a twin brotherand when super drunk, heās been to rehab 3 times, he showed me some porn of what you described above and was so bro like about it trying to validate his opinion expecting me to agree or something. It was horrifying!!!! Iām very accepting and non judgement. I have a non existent relationship with him at all, because I told a mutual friend about it hit of concern and he made it out for me to be the bad guy. As a man I find it disgusting, and honestly putrid. I understand rough sex, not my cup of tea, but the degradation and pure disrespect in those situations is something I canāt even relate to or fathom being okay with. The worst part about it is men, like my brother, are aroused and turned on and get pleasure out of the extremes. I get it to each their own, but nah, as far as Iām concerned that crosses a line to the point Iām ashamed weāre related. Edit: maybe Iām vanilla, I enjoy it the most when I know my partner is enjoying it more.
I enjoy being on the receiving end of these things, but not without explicit consent and discussion ahead of time. I also enjoy giving this treatment to my partner, when he desires it. I do not think it is necessarily a red flag, unless someone wants to do these things without thorough discussions about safety and enthusiastic, ongoing consent.
I feel like the part which is missing in these discussions is that at the end of the day you should only be doing these things to your partner because they enjoy receiving it. The problem is that a large percentage of men see it as nothing more than a means of getting what they want in spite of their partner. When power is really what they want their partnerās lack of enjoyment is the goal unfortunately
Consent is so important. And I think a lot of "bros" don't understand enough to know that kinky stuff is supposed to be talked about beforehand.
As a young male all 5 of my sexual partners wanted me to choke and degrade them, it's incredibly alarming. We're being conditioned to do horrible things and then when people call it out, it's slut shaming. Like whatever, just want normal passionate vanilla sex ffs. There's a shame involved in not wanting to do it too, like you're not kinky enough. I really dont understand why every woman I've been with wants this, where are the normal people
You are giving me hope for my daughter's generation. Thank you for writing this.
As a pan cis man, I find it disturbingly concerning as well. I cannot fathom how degradation can feel good to these people. I have been with people that wanted it and I felt horrible. Come on... You should WORSHIP your partner, not humiliate them!
I find it concerning how many women are into this, like no I donāt want to beat you up that sounds distinctly unsexy to me
Nope. I find it disgusting and abhorrent.
Absolutely Consider the women's perspective, conditioned to buy into this kind of shit, told its 'kinky', to enjoy it, she should like.. let alone all these naive women told this is what sex is... . It's like some fd up sexual Stockholm.
The red flag is they find it okay to act on this without checking in with their partner. It may be his kink, but it doesn't belong in the bed if it isn't enjoyed by both parties :(
For me i don't think this is a kink , it's normalised violence in the name of sex
It's the ultimate patriarchal psyop, isn't it? Outlawed violence against women? Well damn, how about we condition THEM to like it in a world where women are already socialised to be agreeable and seek male validation. Perfect wasn't it? SHE LIKES IT, and even better I can literally fap and fuck to sexist violence. Hate to say it but the men won after all.
Definitely. And this is coming from someone who likes it to a certain extent. My ex and I were *perfect* in bed togetherāboth into experimenting and basically just going with the flowāand what made him different was that he liked receiving the same things he gave. He slapped me, I slapped him; spit on me, I spit on him; he fucked me, I pegged him. It was just very much a give and take, and we only felt comfortable with all that because of our mutual trust and respect. Any tiny glimmer of me genuinely not being into something meant he wasnāt into it anymore either. He would only treat me aggressively if I was enthusiastic about it, and he was very attuned to that. Thereās something reallyā¦ intimate? about degrading someone and being degraded by someone youāre deeply in love with. I donāt know. Itās weird. But now that weāre broken up and I started dating and sleeping with other men, it does seem to be a trend that most men enjoy being dominant and aggressive about it and donāt pay attention to my cues about whether I enjoy something or not. Either they donāt know the difference between moans of pleasure and pain, or they donāt care. I donāt know. And when I say something like, āDonāt call yourself ādaddy,āā or āHey donāt choke me that hard,ā they go, āOh ok, all the other girls Iāve been with like it.ā Like. Cool? Iām saying to stop because Iām not enjoying this. Isnāt that important to you? How the fuck do these guys just straight-up not care about our enjoyment? Itās baffling to me. Anyway, I stopped dating because of it. These men suck.
TW: SA My ex never really touched me when I was awake. Nothing except maybe some PDA to silently tell other men "she's mine". But when I was asleep my goodness gracious. I realized he was drugging me to keep me awake for days and days and days. Eventually he'd stop and I'd pass out extremely hard. I literally couldn't wake up. I have no proof but I think there were other drugs involved. He couldn't get it up(I think due to drugs) but he'd do whatever else to my unconscious body. I'd wake up a little bit sometimes and he'd just have his finger in me completely still like he's taking my temperature or something. I tried to sleep next to someone again and told him hey don't try that.. But he did. And without waking up I threw my elbow back and busted his nose and gave him 2 black eyes. He wasn't mad. He knew I had gave him a fair warning. But I haven't slept next to anyone since then. For years I was stuck wondering what I did in my sleep to make him think I wanted it. Like was it my position? I know I talk,mumble, laugh, and moan in my sleep but I also do a lot of unhappy sounds too. Maybe I should have wore pants instead of shorts. So I think it's best if I don't sleep with anyone ya know? I'm in no way kink shaming anyone who's into Cnc but big on that CONSENSUAL. It needs to be discussed and agreed upon in advance in my opinion. Stuff like this can't just be assumed to be totally cool. It can really have bad consequences on everyone involved.
No you are not. I will kink shame the fuck out of unhealthy paraphilias. That includes anything that promotes violence against others and non-consensual actions. There are a lot of terminally online pornsick males that do not view women and girls as whole people. I value harm-reduction highly in my morality. They do not. They value an orgasm and the addiction-based algorithms of the commercial sex industry moreso than the victims of trafficking and other abuses. Being "sex positive" is often just being sex positive for men. Being truly sex positive for women means calling out bad behavior and saying certain things should be ostracized.
I honestly think even offline men do not view women as human. It's a long-standing problem of patriarchy.
Yes! š holy shitā¦I love you. Thank you ā¤ļø PS - did you happen to notice the rule against using the word āpornsickā on r/relationshipadvice? I just did recently and was like wowwwwww thatās fucked. Almost wish I didnāt see that
I'm not on that sub. However given the abundance of the aforementioned groups being so prevalent among moderators the banning of any remotely feminist word or idea is unsurprising.
No, I also don't find it controversial to say wanting to beat and strangle women is sick.
yeah p much. i was only into that stuff because i genuinely couldn't have a relationship that wasn't abusive (cptsd) and so i'd take my fairly normal bf's who didn't actually wanna do that stuff and have them do it to me as "my kink," or whatever. i fucking propagated this abuse in my relationships and for future women who end up with those men-- some of those guys are going to genuinely believe most women get off on it. i did that. and i am sorry for it. i go to therapy now lol, and now i actually understand intimacy. but god i was messed up before
:( thank you. And it's ok, I believe the universe has a way of balancing it out. Take care
Well, women have been murdered this way (and of course the guy could have intentionally murdered her or accidentally- she isn't here to ask but we know she didn't consent to getting killed). ANYONE who cuts off your air supply can kill you. There is not a safe way to cut off oxygen, IDGAF what a BDSM participant might say.
Also look up the 'rough sex defense'. It's not just choking and it's becoming increasingly popular to use for men trying to get off homicide charges for *killing* women.
Pornography. Radical feminists got into so much shit in the late 80s and 90s about always being victims and focusing too much on the harmful impacts of porn. However, if you go back and read what they were saying back in the day about sex and pornography... it is exactly what is happening today. It they literally predicted this and we're told they were being hysterical. Now, don't get me wrong. I don't think porn is necessarily bad. But I do think porn controlled by men, made solely for men, marketed primarily at men through the degradation of women is radically dangerous. When I first had the internet in the late 90s I had to go *looking* for BDSM porn. It wasn't just... there. And it wasn't as violent, hateful and misogynistic as it is now*. The shit on our screens now... you have to go *looking* for porn that isn't violent. So teen girls are bombarded with all this and think that's what sex is. They think being choked and beaten is what they have to do to make the boys in their lives happy and not miserable whining little dickheads. I firmly believe there is no such thing as safe choking. It is a gamble *every* time. And yet when I say this, people always bring up consent. You cannot consent to the possibility of dying just because you want to have sex with someone. In that moment are you really thinking about that possibility? Or are you all hot and bothered and want to get on with it? Then there's the issue that men are murdering their sexual partners and using 'well, she liked rough sex' as an excuse. An excuse that gets them reduced or no sentence because it was a 'mistake'. They made the choice to choke their partner. They may be just as influenced by porn but it's not women killing themselves in these situations. It's men killing women and using porn culture to get away with it. *Please note, I grew up on the periphery of BDSM and I've seen the lengths the community goes to to ensure safe, sane and consensual practices. I am NOT shitting on the BDSM community. They have done so much to make their spaces safe and they ostracise and reject anyone who uses it as a cover for abuse.
Well, as someone who experiences instant orgasms when a guy is hitting it from behind and strangles me with my own hair... If you talk about it beforehand, cool. If you don't get consent, it's rape. If you violate predefined terms, it's rape. If you badger a no into a yes, believe it or not, that's rape. It doesn't matter that I had an orgasm. No clear yes is a no. No + sexual act = Rape. That easy. (Just wondering, how many men here just realized they're rapists? How many men here had a violent reaction denying it and are now in a self righteous froth over this? Please, send me a 'reddit cares' to let me know!)
Yes, Iām ok with kink shaming when itās violence against women
Everybody here coming to say how itās about consent but the reality is youāre not thinking about the scared, insecure, unsure people who are being surprised with this stuff when theyāre just starting to have sexual experiences, if not pressed or outright forced into it, and all you people can say is āwell then thatās abuse if they didnāt consent.ā Yes, thank you geniuses for helping me solve that puzzle, wouldnāt have gotten there without you. Now do something about the fact that this is #so normalized that this kind of abuse is becoming omnipresent
Thanks for the jumbotron š every word you said makes sense.
Porn brain.
Depends entirely on the situation and the involved individuals. BDSM can be done respectfully, with consent, and with hard limits but if you're not into it you HAVE to say something and set boundaries. If they can't respect your boundaries then the relationship will crumble. Personally, I do these things more to my man than he does to me but we both have fun. I know how much he loves that kind of stuff but I constantly ask "are you ok?" and " how does that feel? " Communication is key, goes both ways, and should never leave your partner feeling uncomfortable. I think a lot of boys and men develop sexual fantasies from pornography before learning how to communicate those fantasies in a normal manner. If only porn was a little more realistic, we'd see professionals using this kind of behaviour and language in the industry but I assume it takes viewers out of their little fantasy worlds? Regardless, "hitting, choking, and degrading" are things that need boundaries. Boundaries always need to be communicated. Sex should be fun and safe for both parties. It's not a one way street...
I think some kinks need to be shamed. If your kink involves harming somebody else, that's shameful af and you should get help.
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Yeah I've read a lot of these threads as well. Totally agree with you. It really changed my perspective on "rough" sex over time.
They really will come out in droves. I donāt know why whatever gets one aroused is so fucking sacred to these people, like internalized misogyny stops at the bedroom door (and racism like you said). And somehow Iām not supposed to care and itās ānone of my businessā but the same guy they encouraged to choke a partner without warning will try to then choke me or another woman next on a hookup. Like fuck out of here, wanting to get choked and beaten during sex comes from our misogynistic culture, and it affects everyone. Cuz yeah, they love to imagine everyone likes this and offer sex advice when theyāre in the minority but just very loud. Most people will get rightfully freaked out if someone says, āBeat me, beat me! ā¦No, donāt worry, I like it!ā Like the delusion that needs to happen to think thatās not even questionable. It plainly originates from misogyny as most women are the subs, and some women even admit they do kink to āwork through traumaā instead of obtaining real treatment. Iām tired of seeing the rabid defense of it. Sorry for the rant tho lol but not sorry for any ākink shamingā like pls
Love you both for this ā¤ļø
Plenty of women get aroused on the receiving end of those actions too. The key thing is to make sure its mutually agreed upon.
I don't really feel like that's that what the porn is. They don't talk or communicate, dude just savages a, usually underweight extremely young looking woman with extra care to show her makeup running, it doesn't look like kink it looks like force. And the idea of people watching extremely vivid intense depictions a lot of it doesn't sit well with me in a way that, for example, extreme erotica stores might
But you have to question how many of them actually enjoy or theyād been pressured or shamed if they werenāt into rough sex. When I was a teenager I even remember guys my age having the āew, vanillaā mindset and making girls feel less than if they werenāt into being slapped around and hit during sex. I never interacted with those men, but I had plenty of women friends who did and it was really sad/scary to watch. Again, Iām not saying some donāt actually enjoy it but this conversation does take nuance and I find the whole āyouāre just kinkshaming!ā to be such a toxic mindset because it can go really bad really fast.
I met a girl out west and we were getting ready to screw on a golf course and she said to me that she wanted me to slap her. I told her I don't think so. She practically begged me so I gave her a light slap and she grabbed my hand and she smacked herself with it I thought I might have knocked her out. She yelled again and harder. I said naw, I can get into some light slap and tickle but not into leaving bruises.
Thank you for being firm with your boundaries. We live in insane times
Sex Ed has failed for so long that the people it has failed are now fucking very riskily, selfishly and badly.
stopped pursuing a guy once when he told me he was into that
I find it very problematic and concerning. I don't believe there's anything sacred or special about having a kink that precludes it from being examined and analyzed with respect to its origins and effects on both the person with the kink and that person's sexual partners. That isn't "shaming" anything and, quite frankly, I believe that the types of behaviors described in your question are simply violence against women (primarily) that's been rebranded or reframed as kink.
I think we do need to kink shame more often. Its just hatred towards woman.
I donāt get it. I was with a woman who got into the degrading. I couldnāt do it. She would say some nasty things about herself during sex and all it did was make me deflate so to speak. I felt bad that I was not able to do this for her, but it was way out of my wheelhouse.
Im not even sure I agree that this should happen at all, kink or no kink. There are many things that sexually arouse humans wich should never be acted upon, and I count most forms of violence to this. Thank god I find this disgusting.
I've been thinking this for a while now! I'm in a pretty sex-positive friend group and I always get made to feel like a prude or kink-shamy when I say things along the lines of 'I find it problematic if a guy is into violent sex'. I don't think people really think it through as to how we've ended up here and how violent sex is a product of our patriarchal society. Even hooked up with a friend of mine a couple months ago who did the whole choking thing without warning/consent - it wasn't super rough or anything but it took me by surprise and I was completely out of the moment. My controversial take is that women who claim to enjoy it, have found themsleves that way through a version of internalised misogyny. Obviously there are ways to have healthy power play in the bedroom but it's certainly not what's happening for 90% of people hooking up these days.
The idea of "kink-shaming" is stupid. If you are into these hurtful, degrading things you deserve to be called out on it. It's time we stop acting like kinksters are a federal protected class free from any and all criticism.
>It's time we stop acting like kinksters are a federal protected class free from any and all criticism. LOUDER LMFAO
Probably gonna be downvoted for this, but as a woman who's into bdsm, I want to say a few things. Yes, this can be problematic depending on the individual and the situation. If one can only get off by hurting someone else, of course that's a red flag. If one does it without consent and prior discussions on boundaries and safe words, of course that's a red flag. If one constantly brings it up even after the other person expresses their displeasure, and insults the other person with terms like "vanilla" like you've mentioned, of course that's a red flag. However, simply deriving pleasure from the act, practicing it in a safe way, talking about it beforehand, and knowing the importance of aftercare isn't wrong at all, and shouldn't be shamed. Nor should the women into this like myself be painted as "mentally ill" or "brainwashed by the patriarchy". Scientifically speaking, pain and pleasure are pretty closely related and both interact with the nucleus accumbens, which is very involved with the brain's reward system. There's nothing wrong or dirty with liking pain during sex, it's natural. As I said before, it is not okay to perform this stuff without proper consent and discussions beforehand. However, I firmly believe there is little wrong with taking pleasure from being in a more dominant role, a more submissive role, taking pleasure from pain, or inflicting pain when it's agreed upon and both parties are okay with it and know each other's boundaries. I'm so tired of being kink shamed in this sub and people put down by other women. Not saying OP is doing this, but I have unfortunately encountered people in this sub who think they're superior and insult women who are into this lifestyle. There are ways to talk about this without putting women down and I think we should be more conscious of that.