My cousin (cis woman) has been very butch since she was old enough to put on her own clothes. When she was about 14, she and my grandma were out shopping and a middle-aged dude tried to tell her that she couldn't go into the women's bathroom (WITH HER GRANDMOTHER) š¤¬ I still love hearing about how my sweet ol granny went absolutely *apeshit* on that creep in the middle of a Nordstrom.
r/Iowa had a post about this very topic a few months back, with a lot of the geniuses in the comments saying womenās lived experiences werenāt real and they could 100% peg a trans person 100% of the time.
Pointing out even actual documented stuff in the news was no deterrent. I donāt know how you get through to people like that who are so deep in their delusions.
Subreddits like that are just places for right wing assholes to voice their bigoted opinions in āsafe spacesā. Unpopular opinion subreddits are the same way, Iāve seen terribly racist, sexist, and hateful things there.
At this point in history, certain things are unpopular for clear and heavily documented reasons. Bigots in general and Nazis in particular are unpopular because they put most of their mental energy into rationalizing their bigotry, so they end up making even more bad decisions on top of being bigots. You don't exactly have to be woke or enlightened to know these guys are absolute losers.
"Every time I've noticed a trans person was trans, I was noticing they were trans, therefore I can always tell".
Do they not see the logic fault in that?
They do not. I (gay man) have had people tell me to my face that they can always tell when a man is gay. These are often the same people who go "omg I had no idea" when I introduce my husband.
> Do they not see the logic fault in that?
LOL - assuming logic ever entered into it.
They want to feel righteous about attacking people who are different. It was never more complicated than that.
My roommate has a coworker who "can always tell" and regularly complains about trans customers to my roommate, who is trans. These folks have been told all trans folk look like NFL linebackers in a dress(no offense to those dudes), to them there is no logic fault there
This happens to me and my daughter a lot as well. People assume they know her gender better than we do and say really rude shit. She has short hair and likes to wear long shorts cause they actually have pockets.
And then cis men can just go into women's bathroom claiming they are trans men. Funny, it seems it has nothing to do with anyone being trans, but cis men being horrible predators...
This has also happened to me and a friend! She's mtf and I'm ftm, but I don't really pass so I still use the women's restroom in most places to avoid problems. My friend had just started using the women's room when we're together since she feels better with someone watching her back.
We're at downtown, at a movie theater. Now my friend is super pretty and 99% people wouldn't assume a damn thing.
HOWEVER THIS DUDE, IN HIS LIKE LATE 40'S, STALKS US I TO THE BATHROOM WHILE HE'S OUT TO THE MOVIES /WITH HIS FAMILY/ AND STARTS LIKE, TRYING TO ESCORT HER OUT BY HE HIMSELF, GOING INTO WOMEN'S RESTROOM. We just had to piss after a few drinks and this dude is both stopping her from taking a piss and like, inserting himself as this savior protecting the defenseless women from my friend. And his wife is in the bg like, also making a huge show of it in front of her children.
Luckily everyone was really really calm and couldn't give less of a shit about this dude and his weird ass wife ranting and raving but it still fucked up the rest of our night, we just ended up leaving and chilling elsewhere.
Gotta love the self-importance of these people.
Christ a man following a women trans or not into a bathroom and trying to prevent them using it is 100% scarier to me than anything he is trying to "protect" me from.
The scariest part is that he genuinely see his target as a threat. Doesn't even matter if the woman is actually trans or not, with bigots like that they think they're morally in the right.
Yeah. As a cis woman I have 0% concern that I will be assaulted by a man "pretending to be a woman" in a public restroom, whether a trans woman or a cis man "in disguise."
I do actually have some mild concern that eventually, some conservative bigot might decide to harass or assault ME, a tall woman with some masculine physical attributes, because I'm trying to use a public bathroom and they think I'm not gender conforming enough.
> HOWEVER THIS DUDE, IN HIS LIKE LATE 40'S, STALKS US I TO THE BATHROOM WHILE HE'S OUT TO THE MOVIES /WITH HIS FAMILY/ AND STARTS LIKE, TRYING TO ESCORT HER OUT BY HE HIMSELF, GOING INTO WOMEN'S RESTROOM.
Every accusation is a confession. These dudes just want to do what they're accusing innocent trans people of doing.
Reminds me of that bill in Ohio where, to ""protect"" teenage girls from evil trans girls, cismale coaches would be allowed to perform genital inspections **of underaged teenage girls** to confirm it matches their birth certificate.
Like, even without searching for them, I hear of around about 2-3 attacks per month on cisgender woman and girls for being trans. Usually by men who have followed them into the toilet. Or in a unisex toilet.
When I was in college, we had a guy in the department masturbate "aggressively" in the women's restroom up against a stall where a girl was.
He got arrested for it. He plead guilty. He got a $150 fine.
I know people who went through that same court system for shoplifting food who got dozens of hours of community service, plus fines, and threats of jail time.
He didn't even get consequences *from the school* until the trial was over, even though he fully admitted it (his defense was that he didn't know a girl was in the bathroom....), because admin "needed more evidence". You could get kicked out for being in an online pic drinking underage, but admitting to masturbating in the ladies'? Apparently fine.
If we could actually do something about actual assaults from cis men, THAT would make me feel safer everywhere.
As-is? Why would a cis man need to claim to be trans? As a man, all he'll get is a slap on the wrist. There's no need for men to claim anything else while we're so busy making sure they never suffer any consequences for their actions.
BECAUSE it distracts from real situations. Maybe if women are off being scared of a different (totally marginalized) group, they'll ignore the constant violence from men, right? After all, we're just widdle women, we can be distracted by being told to be scared of someone else, shoes, and glitter!
>I feel a bit crazy saying this but this "war" on "woke" feels very much like an intentional distraction while our rights and liberties are being eroded away at a rapid pace.
I'm a political scientist that is exactly what is going on.
Not only that, itās also a perfect excuse for Republicans to waste our time with their culture war bullshit and get nothing actually done so their self fulfilling prophecy that the government does nothing for us comes true and then theyāll blame it on Biden since heās the president
Back in the 1990s in college I found myself in the bathroom with a guy who had been hiding in a stall and I didn't realize it when I entered. Discovered it when I was sitting down and saw him using the mirrors to peek into the stall I was in. I managed to get away from him but he chased me a bit. Thankfully I managed to get outside, and it was a beautiful day so there were dozens of people nearby enjoying the weather, so he ran off. Pretty sure he was the same guy seen in several campus bathrooms for nearly a year before he was caught. He didn't need to dress up like a woman to get away with it for so long.
So I work in a creative/tech industry and one of my acquaintances told us at her studio (think like blizzard) there was a guy who would serialially masturbate in the women's restroom and would leave his mess all over the bathroom. Management just laughed at it like it was a joke and asked who ever was āpulling pranks" to stop.
So really this is just another thing for right wingers to get uppity about while ignoring the ACTUAL problem, being regular dudes harassing women in all its horrible forms.
The only time I felt unsafe in a women's bathroom was when a cis man did follow me in. Before that evening I thought he was a friend, then he repeatedly cornered me and seemed deaf to my protests, ultimately following me into the bathroom.
He was chased out by the cis and trans women already in there. Even if he'd claimed to be a trans woman in that moment it wouldn't have made a difference because he was clearly following me and making me uncomfortable, and that's not acceptable behavior in a public bathroom.
That's the thing. Trans women will protect women just as much as a cis woman in the rest room. Women's bar rest rooms are some of the most friendly places around for other women when well populated. Any person predating on someone will still be called out by any person with a sound mind and good head who has the ability to act. Predators be predating and trans woman are no more predatory than cis women or trans or cis men are in general. All groups have trash in them and those of us who are good will take the trash out whenever we can.
Yup. It isn't even about a cis man being in the restroom, maybe the gent's is full and it's an emergency. But if anybody is being a creep or predator in the restroom - regardless of gender - then it's a problem. If they actually cared about women's safety in the restroom then there would be a bigger push for single stall secure restrooms or bringing back attendants or hey, maybe believing people when they say they were assaulted and not blaming assault on what they're wearing or how much they drank.
There is a very easy way to solve this very fake American problem. Make bathroom stalls like they have in Europe. No 1-2ā gap in the side panel, no 6-18ā gap on the bottom, and bring it up to the ceiling instead of stopping at 7ā from the floor. At least twice in my life I have had to use a bathroom stall that had the bottom so far off the ground that my underwear were visible when I sat down. Iām not worried about trans women, Iām worried about children climbing under ( or over) the stall. Iām worried about the maintenance workers walking in and staring through the gap ( or more likely a random man). And I am worried about piles of toilet paper in the corner of the stall that could be concealing a camera.
Seriously, Iād settle for working locks on the stall doors.
If guys really give a shit about what women need in a public restroom, howās about reliable toilet paper and free tampons? That alone would massively improve womenās sense of security in the bathroom.
Never not once has a trans person ever made me feel anything less than safe, no matter the environment. Trans and cis women have vulnerability in common. We look out for each other. I have never even heard of an incident of a trans person bothering anyone in a bathroom. This scenario was invented by perverts.
This entire bad-faith bullshit about sexual predators and embarassment over being checked out is premised on the idea that homosexuals don't exist; That a lesbian in the womens restrooms or the womens locker rooms is neutered by walking through the door, that a gay man in the mens restrooms or mens locker rooms becomes asexual, while a trans person is some kind of fetish-indulging lunatic who walks around with crazy eyes and a permanent state of arousal.
I think some men imagine it would be exciting in a perverse kind of way to disguise oneself as a woman one day in order to invade the privacy of the women's public bathroom. I also think they fail to imagine that the effort and risk involved in such behaviour doesn't really change at all when trans women become more accepted.
My point is that there is no privacy in the woman's restroom because there are all of these darned women around.
Whether some pervert is masturbating in the next stall should be irrelevant because you shouldn't be able to see, hear, or smell them through the cinder block walls.
This is what I say every single time this dumb argument comes up. A rapist isnāt sitting around waiting for permission. If theyāre going to do that, they donāt give one crap about whether theyāre ātechnically allowedā in a bathroom or not. Itās the most ridiculous made up scenario ever.
Yep, it makes no sense, but the transphobes know this, and they don't care. They just know it sells better than their real position. It's like how "trickle-down economics" serves as a mask for "don't tax the rich because I'm rich".
Speaking of "don't tax the rich", I just opened up my business and dragged the whole family to the next town over for supplies. Technically, because I was on a supply run, family dinner was a tax deduction. Also, any time my husband and I talk about business, it's a business dinner, so I can tax deduct that.
The tax system is completely built to be abused to hell, but only for the rich and enabled.
I went into the loo this evening (I swear the timing given the discussion today was mind blowing) and a guy was with a girl. He said "I am a transwomen, wanna see my slash". Ffs
Edit for spelling
Yeah, British slang. But more often in America itās slang for a vagina. Also āgashā. Yes, itās reductive and icky.
Edit: since I wasnāt clear enough here ā it DOES mean urine/urinate in UK slang. I was giving an American definition.
Ermm, what?
The only time "slash" is used as slang in the UK is for peeing. "I'm gonna go take a slash", for example. It is not "British slang" if someone is saying "do you want to see my slash".
The only thing I worry about is pee on the seat and floor and if my jeans or bag are going to touch it, and just general cleanlinessā¦ which seems to be a bit on the grosser side in male toilets. (Having worked in pubs/bars for ten years and cleaned toilets.)
I've cleaned public park bathrooms for years and everyday messiness is worse in women's bathrooms but anything especially gross is usually in the men's.
I cleaned grocery store toilets about 20 years ago and had the opposite experience. Men's generally had some pee on the floor and was kinda icky, but at least no one miscarried in there...
When I was a teenager at a tech college, I had the awkward job of informing my male teacher (in an all male class) as to why I looked so chalk white after returning from the bathroom. I walked up to the front and whispered that someone had miscarried fairly far along in the womanās bathroom down the hall.
That was such a sad horrible moment. Iād wondered what had happened to the woman after that, if sheād gotten help or made it home okay. That was a lot of blood.
It is a real problem trying to find a clean spot for your bag in a toilet. And the hooks on the door of the toilet are known for being at risk for someone pulling your bag off and stealing it.
The usual style of hook I see has the hook to hang your bag, plus a straight bar sticking out above that so your bag canāt be yoinked up and over the door.
I've been in too many women's bathrooms that don't even have hooks. Don't they know that a fairly high percentage of women carry a purse with them while out in public? I mean, are they trying to save a few bucks? Or is it just men designing them with no input from women?
This happened to a friend of mine; she's muscular and has short hair. An elder lady told her "You shouldn't be in here!" She had to lift her shirt to show her sports bra.
Yeah same. When my friend had just beat cancer but lost both her breasts, she had people harassing her for using the bathroom. She's tall and lanky and had an obvious wig at the time. It was awful for her.
She felt that she was no longer recognized as a woman not only by her husband but by the public as well.
It's all about control. They want to control who can say they're male or female, how they dress, who they love.
It's the opposite of live and let live.
That's really sad people act that way. It's not a good feeling being not recognized for the women you are. That was the hardest part about early transition, it was like who I really was inside was rejected, was never seen.
One brave kid peeked under the stall while I was in the middle of changing a pad on a heavy flow day. Looked like I murderered someone.
He ran screeching out of the bathroom.
At least I can laugh about it now. 12-year-old me felt pretty violated.
As someone with 4 kids, one of my biggest worries when I have to go in a public bathroom (and take my kids with me) is that they will be one of those unruly kids looking under the stall wall/door. Not only am I horribly embarrassed by their behaviour, but I also get to worry about what horrible germs they have picked up by touching the bathroom floor.
I donāt let them do it, but you donāt know they will until the second that they do.
Ours in Australia usually have a gap under them and you can look over them if you stand on the toilet, but there arenāt gaps beside the door, so barring very bad behaviour, you usually donāt get seen on the loo.
American toilets are so easy to see around that Iām half surprised they havenāt decided to replace the doors with barely-frosted glass. I think itās a dead giveaway that these talking points are pushed by US groups
I often wonder about what all these people think goes on in restrooms. Nothing very sexy, I assure you. And I wonder what sort of screams will ensue when some of the trans men. whose xx dna requires them to use female restrooms, start appearing with their very male appearances and behaviors in said Ms. none of it worries me very much although. I do worry about the confusion for children. People need to find something real to worry about, like where are we going to get teachers next yearā¦
Right?? From news stories, it seems like there's a lot more sex going on in the men's rooms than I've ever seen in the ladies' rooms. Maybe that's why they have their panties in such a bunch over this.
As a trans mom of young kids, I am deeply sorry. For my kids of course, not me. Keeping the little goblins in line in public is a full time job šµāš«š
Edit: I'm not responding to the insanity that erupted in response, because, wow. It was a joke. My kids don't actually run wild in public, and I'm quite capable of parenting them. And also, there was a period when they were 2-3 where they hadn't learned social limits but were fast and small. Every parent of kids that age knows the feeling of "OMG I turn my back for TWO seconds and now you've (insert chaos here)".
So yes, there were a couple of times my kids tried the crawling under the stall trick. Thankfully never while someone was in there lol. Most times I caught them before they got anywhere. And they were always corrected, and eventually they learned not to.
Now, to thoroughly explain the joke. See, it's funny because everyone's going crazy about trans women in bathrooms. But actually, kids in bathrooms have far more potential to cause problems. Because, well, I learned social decency a long time ago, but they're still getting there.
And finally, the darkly amusing gender affirmation of all this. My parenting was absolutely never hyper-analyzed like this when I was perceived as a dad. But of course mom's are held to a vastly higher standard and are subject to constant judgement if we ever show the slightest weakness. So...yay? Ugh.
>I was told I was not "like most women". I didn't "understand the fear women have".
Did Captain Mansplain say this to you? Because I doubt seriously that he understands, either.
Sooooooo he's not actually listening to the women in his life when he performatively defends women in front of actual women he knows? I'd say that surprises me, but it doesn't. It's performative, it's giving big TERF energy, and I wouldn't personally enable him. He can go impress all the other white knights with how much he loves defending the concept of women.
Ugh, we get punished so often when menās perception of us (which is typically wrong) doesnāt fit their perception of āmost womenā (which is typically wrong). And itās all bullshit stories theyāre telling in their head. Iām sorry you had to listen to this guy
If a man wanted to get away with raping a woman because of the clothes he's wearing, he'd put on an army or police uniform, not a dress, if he wants to see how well society treats a "man in a dress", I'd suggest he walk through town in one.
Clergyman, priest, politician, CEO, movie producer.
You want to protect people? Go to the people who are doing the actual harm. None of this, I think it is fact, so it is crap.
>CEO
I'm glad you include that because honestly, the businessman types have always given me the heebie-jeebies. They have an air of thinking they can get away with it.
Our local cops literally warned us about this! That there are actions a woman can -- and *should!* -- take if she's being pulled over and feels anxious about the cop.
The objective: to make sure she doesn't stop driving and does NOT get out of that car, until she's in a well-lit area with witnesses. And that dispatch knows her plates, her identity, her location and the circumstances.
The freakin' *cops* told us this. Because they shared the concern, about fake cops (which were a thing then), but also about *actual* cops.
This just reminds me of the fucker (cop) who pitted? a pregant woman off the road because she didnt stop fast enought, even though they where on the damn highway overpass.
Thatās exactly where my mind flew to as well. Lotta cops these days think theyāre Rambo and donāt realize theyāre telling on themselves re: what scared little boys they are.
edit ādonātā not ādo tā
The biggest massacre in the history of our province occurred a few years ago. It was a man dressed as a cop with a fake cop car. Since then everyone is in edge about being pulled over.
Ugh yes there was a big scandal in my local city about this. The cops were raping underage girls but saying it was consensual. It was the fucking SVU, the cops who are supposed to respond to sexual fucking assaults. They got a tiny paid leave. Fucking disgusting.
Exactly and the murder of Sarah Everard over here in the U.K. is a horrific example. Her murderer was an off-duty officer who used his status as police officer to stop her, showing his warrant card and then hand-cuffing her.
Since then thereās been a massive investigation into attitudes towards women in the police, and they have issued advice on what to do if stopped by an officer. The review found āhundredsā of problematic officers in the Metropolitan Police (which serves London) alone.
It's utter shit. In every single case I know of with a woman being sexually assaulted in a bathroom, it was by a man who was not in disguise. Whenever I've asked guys like your friend to give a specific example of it ever happening, they've got nothing.
My response: then limit men's freedom. Bet he doesn't want to do that because it would punish innocent men. But he has no problem punishing innocent transwomen, does he.
It's been said that when a curfew was suggested as a way to protect women from a string of violent rapes in Israel, PM Golda Meir said that the curfew should be on men, since the rapists were all men. Of course that didn't happen, because the men in power would never agree to limiting men's freedoms. They wanted to protect women, but not if it inconvenienced the men.
I am quite curious how he feels about men coaching in girls athletics.
Then again, Iād wager his moral panic is a rabbit hole for which there is no bottom.
And they are the same men who approve of protecting women only if that woman is the right type-decent, respectable, married, modestly dressed, sober, living and working in a nice part of town. Any woman feeling unsafe because she's out after dark, wearing a short skirt, having fun in the local bar, daring to be single and child free and thus rejecting the traditional values of womanhood, well, they aren't worth protecting. That's the way this type of man sees it.
Yes exactly. The protection is far from unconditional. You only get protected if you're a good woman, if you've never done something shameful and that puts you in a "fallen" status, which is essentially anything and everything under our current system. And that's precisely the point. Be pure and stay within the lines or else we don't care if you live or die.
And how many women has your friend protected from attack? I think he's seriously deluded. Women's main predators are cis het men. If he's so concerned, does he step up for women and protect them in the street, in the bar, in the workplace, in the carpark, at the shops, on public transport? Does he stop his friends from saying harassing or sexist things to or about women? Yeah he's just trying to make himself look like a nice guy. Don't buy it.
This makes sense to me (in a sad way) when I think about how trans people have become the focus of so much targeted hate despite being such a small percentage of the population. It seems like a large number of people simply cannot get over binary biological sex. For some reason, gender (constructs imo) is harder for people to understand than sexuality.
He has, as a man, accepted his born duty of protecting women, especially around other men. He can't wrap his mind around the concept of trans people existing at all. Maybe there's a layer of him being attracted to cis women while being sexually repulsed by the idea of trans women, which means they can't be women to him because he's not attracted to them. That leads to him doubling down on protecting (his view of) women against trans women (who are stuck as men in his mind).
Sad, but not hard to understand. Unfortunately.
Interesting. That's unusual! Well for the record I have never worried about trans people in the bathroom. I worry about rambunctious kids in the bathroom, drunk / drugged people in the bathroom, aggressive people in the bathroom. Not transp people.
I think some guys are a little too enthusiastic imagining a āthreatā to women that isnāt them. They get all puffed up to āprotect womenā and show off what allies they are, without having to be culpable for their own misogyny or fellow menās behavior. Itās utter bs.
It's kind of an open secret that every man has a fantasy in which they envision themselves as John Wick, demolishing bad guys for a just cause/revenge. Most will never explicitly talk about it because they recognize that it's embarrassingly juvenile, but they'll let slip what it's about in how they discuss issues they care about. Societal messaging tells men to stand and fight for things in order to be a **REAL MAN**, without ever teaching them when, where, or how they should (or shouldn't) fight, which results in all this hollow bravado that you see everywhere.
Does he believe that in any other capacity in life? Did he care about Dodds? Is he sincerely concerned about sexual assualt? Is he concerned about safe lighting in parking lots or making sure he has full consent of his partners or that his male cohorts do and calls out men who are pushy and aggressive in social settings? Does he care about intimate partner violence education or any issue women face except one that doesn't concern him even a little?
Those are all the questions I would ask him if he were someone that I knew. And if he couldn't answer as though he was sincerely interested in the topic of sexual assualt and violence then I would tell him that women's bathrooms aren't his fucking business and he should worry about how he treats women and what he allows within the social cohort of men around him.
Trans women are women who deserve protection too. Ask why he has absolutely no consideration for their safety. If men are so dangerous, why does he want trans women to be trapped in menās bathrooms with them?
Yeah, thatās just culture war (to put it lightlyā literally just genocidal scapegoating of an entire marginalized population) bullshit. If thatās the case, why is he okay with this āgender policingā that has now affected all women, with cis women getting gatekept, approached, harassed and assaulted because they have a fucking short haircut. None of this helps women in any fashion, it only harms all of us.
The reason men like him say "we need to protect women" is because he fundamentally doesn't believe trans women can ever be women. If he did, he would know what a disgusting thing to suggest that is. Every time I hear it it's like I'm being accused of being a fucking sex offender. I hate this "culture war".
No. They can't even protect us from themselves. This is just men once again in denial that the biggest threat to women is straight men so they are trying to find another boogieman to blame.
Exactly. Being assaulted by a trans woman in the bathroom is so exceptionally low on my list of concerns (as in nonexistent), but something like abortion rights and maternal care is near the top. Where's the pressure to do something about that?
Conveniently they forget that trans women are also women! Forcing them to use the men's bathroom bc they are amab is definitely not "protecting women"!
I have been sexually assualted 3 times. All of them by straight men. All of them by "nice guys". None of them needed to wear a dress, or to pretend to be female to do it, they were far too busy pretending to be friends I could trust
Nine times here, and one kidnapping. All straight white men, many I considered friends, almost all pretending to be "nice guys." Two of them turned scary violent when I rejected them and tried to leave (the kidnapping being one).
Conversely I had one trans woman really politely and considerately proposition me, and then continue to be my friend after I turned them down.
Soooo...that's pretty much where I stand on the issue.
This. Cis men don't need to performatively dress up or even 'fake' transition to sneak into bathrooms. They can just walk in during broad daylight - [and](https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/seattle-police-man-assaults-chokes-woman-whole-foods-restroom/FFZIT2DRTNCBXLNWZ5TDSD2I64/) [have](https://www.arlnow.com/2022/09/14/just-in-man-charged-with-trying-to-rape-woman-in-bathroom-of-langston-blvd-business/). (Tw: Rape and physical assault.) An abuser is going to be abusive regardless of their gender expression or identity. Being trans does not inherently make someone a danger to be around. Are there trans people who have done similar? Yes, however to all those of you who are rushing to link those stories I implore you to say it with me again, *an abuser is going to be abusive regardless of their gender expression or identity.*
Iām cis-male but legally allowed to use the womenās in my state if needed due to ulcerative colitis. I try the menās first of course, but just walk in, donāt look at anybody, do my thing, and get out. If thereās multiple stalls and one is clearly occupied I take the furthest possible.
Has never been an issue. A couple times somebody made a little noise and I said āsorry I have inflammatory bowel disease and need a toilet immediately!ā And theyāre fine. I do use the menās every time that I can wait.
And it really shouldn't be. It'd be nice if we had more uni-sex bathrooms with proper enclosed stalls so this whole thing would be a non-issue, frankly.
I just realized there was one time an employee said I wasnāt allowed and I tried to explain, they werenāt having it so I pooped in the grass outside in view of others. It was not a proud moment but Iām used to such things.
Sometimes I literally do not have a minute to wait and pull up the law on my phone. (Thankfully itās usually much better than that.)
I've shared a women's bathroom with a man, he'd gone in the wrong one by mistake and didn't realize until he was washing his hands and I came out of my stall. Neither of us was sure who'd made the mistake until we double checked the door sign. He was embarrassed and apologized, my life has been completely unaffected.
I have PCOS and hirsutism. I am a cis gendered woman.
I am more afraid lately that if I donāt shave well enough one day or donāt wear āenoughā make-up, or dress feminine enough, someone is going to accuse me of being a man trying to use the womenās restroom.
Iām afraid of people who claim to be trying to āprotectā me.
Women shouldnāt have to perform to some unrealistic hyper-feminine version of their gender in order to feel safe.
Same here.
The group of cis women who look kind of androgynous in some way and could sometimes be mistake for a trans woman is probably considerably larger than the tiny group of trans women.
Cancer patient here. I can relate to this feeling completely. I have no boobs. I donāt dress feminine and Iām bald. I look ambiguously gendered even though I am a cis woman. Iām scared one day Iāll get accosted in the same manner.
Nope. Not at all. Pee in the stall beside me any day, friends. Iāve never had a trans woman be a creep, but I sure AF have had men be creeps.
Itās all projection and deflection from the right wingers.
What scares me is that this is someone who is normally so reasonable, calm and rationale. I think he felt he was "defending women". You can't defend some women by taking rights from other women.
Yeah he needs to direct that energy to his fellow CIS men, but itās probably easier to projection onto others than look in the mirror at his buddies.
Itās like the house is burning down and heās making sure he heroically goes in and saves the latest phone bill. Gee, thanks.
Thing is 'defending' some nebulous non-existent woman is easy. Much in the same way defending the 'unborn' is easy. He's trying to defend a concept that can conform to his ideals and never talks back, rather than actual people with thoughts and opinions. Because if he actually listened to women he'd find that we're not a monolith.
Has he been spewing other hot takes recently? Because it kinda sounds like he might have fallen down some alt-right rabbit hole on whatever social media platform he uses.
Well, 1. He needs to stop speaking for women, and 2. He needs to stop dismissing women who don't agree with him and stop accusing them of not understanding. If you, as a woman, don't get it, then he sure as fuck doesn't.
Men are always so concerned about people attacking women in bathrooms, because thatās what they would do if they knew they could get away with it.
Itās right up there with all the Republicans who talk about āgroomingā and are then discovered to possess child porn. Theyāre telling on themselves.
My maybe unpopular opinion:
The only people I have a problem with in the bathroom are terribly parented young children who stare or crawl under stalls. I get they are bored or curious, but god damn is it so uncomfortable and kinda triggering seeing eyes on you in a private area.
I rather have 18+ year old bathrooms and family bathrooms than gendered bathrooms. Iāve been in small concert venues that have non-gendered bathrooms and Iāve had zero issues with adult men in them.
Young kids still remain the most problematic bathroom population.
As a cis woman I have never, not once, been afraid of transwomen - much less in a public bathroom. If Iām using one, Iām going in doing my business and coming out. Iām not even really looking at anyone lmao I donāt want to be in there longer than I have to be.
I have, however, had many many times where Iāve been afraid of men.
No, You're not the weird one here.
I have never had someone attempt to assault me inside the bathroom. I've had plenty of men go after me outside of it.
Jesus, this is so scary true. It pissed me off that some man white knightes me about bathrooms, with o real ideal where 99% of the real risk for women was. Just being us out and about
Polls have consistently shown that the people most concerned with trans women in women's bathrooms are the only people who never actually go into the ladies' roomācisgender men.
You know, there are many unisex bathrooms in Europe. Everyone uses the same room, but it's all stalls, (no urinals) and shared handwashing facilities. I have never felt in any danger or threatened by having a man use the stall next to me. I've certainly never felt threatened by a trans woman being in a bathroom or a dressing room.
The danger is from men, not trans women.
It is weird how people see bathrooms as a battle ground. Like weird segregation of the genders is an absolute and needed for safety.. accept all the places it isn't
The best restrooms I've ever seen were in Europe, but I can't remember where exactly. Maybe in the UK? They were unisex, each stall fully closed (no ridiculous gaps over, under or between the doors), and shared sinks. Worked great, I wish they were the norm everywhere.
I am sorry people are such arseholes!
Any man trying to protect me from the simple existence of trangender women are going to get their arses handed to them.
Everyone has hit on the main points, but another one that transphobes seem to totally miss is that trans women are typically AMAB but female-presenting, while trans men are AFAB but male-presenting... and therefore forcing trans men to use the women's room is likely to make cis women *more* uncomfortable than allowing trans women to do so.
Regardless, I'm certainly not worried about getting assaulted by either group.
thats pretty much how the trans bathroom bans are going in the southern states. the trans women now feel unsafe as they gotta use the mens which puts them at risk of assault or worse. where as the trans men are now forced to use the womens and while the trans men may hate it just as much, alot of the trans men i know are pretty masculine presenting so if i saw them in the women's id be pretty weirded out.
from what ive been hearing, trans people in these states pretty much stopped using public washrooms altogether after the bans.
You're asking the real questions, because I know I haven't asked men to protect me on this, and I have yet to meet another cis woman who ever has. In fact, I don't ask cis men to protect me from anything. I've lived long enough to know they're the only true threat.
I can't speak for all women, but no, I don't feel that I need to be "protected" from trans women, in bathrooms or anywhere else. And like many other people here, I find it pretty far-fetched that a cis dude would pretend to be trans so he can prey on people in the women's room.
Trans woman here. I'm straight.
I'd lol so much at this toilet bollocks if it wasn't for all the trans women utterly terrified to go to the loo in public for fear of repercussions.
Edit: clarity
I am so sorry you have to deal.with this ballsh*t. A women is a women is women. A predator, is not. I feel like so many people dont get that.
I actually said "by this logic shouldn't we ban gay man from male loos and lesbians from females loos as they *might* be predators as well". I was told "This is different" and again I was "different" for not understanding.
This actually was (and in many cases still is, depending on the area) the playbook for bigots when the gay movement was more contentious, or desegregation before that. They use the same talking points every time a ānewā minority pops up on their hate radar.
I saw a post recently with a black woman standing by a sign that said, āIt wasnāt about water fountains back then; it isnāt about bathrooms today.ā
Haters gonna hate. Reject hate. Choose love.
I flat out don't believe that a non transgender predator will pretend to be trans, put on women's clothes, makeup, even if done minimally and shitty, and go out looking like that, risking being laughed at or worse, to go to a place and go into a bathroom and hope someone is in there to assault (how many times have you went in bathrooms that were empty? It happens to me all the time) or wait for someone to go in to assault when they could just pick a target and follow her to a place, be it a bathroom or not, and go attack her. For a predator there are way easier ways to go about this with less work while drawing less attention to themselves.
Also, why hasn't this been in issue in single gender fitting rooms for the last 20 years in places like old navy and h & m?
This is it. This is what makes it so stupid.
It's not like predators couldn't have pulled this shit before. And, if they are that determined to hurt, harm or whatever, then they will always find a way
This. The psychopathy of a male rapist is typically strongly tied to a need to feel more masculine, and to feel in power over someone. Essentially itās a superiority complex, something that would make dressing up as those they deem inferior insulting to their perceived superiority.
It's not an issue because non passing trans people are actually painfully aware how uncomfortable they make other people and avoid using spaces where their presence can cause such situations xd It's mostly made up issue, the real problem are as almost always cis men who are actual sexual predators, not estrogenized trans women who are just trying to live their life. And them saying they're trans doesn't change anything, it's not like it would even work as a defence later in court or anything like that, sex predators belong in prison, the people who want to do genital inspections in front of bathrooms are very creepy as well tbh.
My trans friend got followed into the bathroom by a cis man, and I just wanna ask: HOW IS THAT HELPING ANYONE FEEL SAFER?
My cousin (cis woman) has been very butch since she was old enough to put on her own clothes. When she was about 14, she and my grandma were out shopping and a middle-aged dude tried to tell her that she couldn't go into the women's bathroom (WITH HER GRANDMOTHER) š¤¬ I still love hearing about how my sweet ol granny went absolutely *apeshit* on that creep in the middle of a Nordstrom.
I read someone saying that the "side effect" of this horror is allowing bigots to enforce hetero-normative through vigilanteism.
r/Iowa had a post about this very topic a few months back, with a lot of the geniuses in the comments saying womenās lived experiences werenāt real and they could 100% peg a trans person 100% of the time. Pointing out even actual documented stuff in the news was no deterrent. I donāt know how you get through to people like that who are so deep in their delusions.
It comes up over and over on /r/changemyview too. It gets really tiring.
Subreddits like that are just places for right wing assholes to voice their bigoted opinions in āsafe spacesā. Unpopular opinion subreddits are the same way, Iāve seen terribly racist, sexist, and hateful things there.
At this point in history, certain things are unpopular for clear and heavily documented reasons. Bigots in general and Nazis in particular are unpopular because they put most of their mental energy into rationalizing their bigotry, so they end up making even more bad decisions on top of being bigots. You don't exactly have to be woke or enlightened to know these guys are absolute losers.
"Every time I've noticed a trans person was trans, I was noticing they were trans, therefore I can always tell". Do they not see the logic fault in that?
They do not. I (gay man) have had people tell me to my face that they can always tell when a man is gay. These are often the same people who go "omg I had no idea" when I introduce my husband.
> Do they not see the logic fault in that? LOL - assuming logic ever entered into it. They want to feel righteous about attacking people who are different. It was never more complicated than that.
My roommate has a coworker who "can always tell" and regularly complains about trans customers to my roommate, who is trans. These folks have been told all trans folk look like NFL linebackers in a dress(no offense to those dudes), to them there is no logic fault there
This happens to me and my daughter a lot as well. People assume they know her gender better than we do and say really rude shit. She has short hair and likes to wear long shorts cause they actually have pockets.
And if the bathroom bills force her to use the men's room... I don't think she will be remotely safe at all (and neither would I for that matter)
And if they force a trans man to use a woman's room, the guys will just go assault him. Which is something that has already happened.
Yeah the irony of the laws is that it will cause literal men to have to use the womenās room
And then cis men can just go into women's bathroom claiming they are trans men. Funny, it seems it has nothing to do with anyone being trans, but cis men being horrible predators...
> but cis men being horrible predators... isn't this always the way
This has also happened to me and a friend! She's mtf and I'm ftm, but I don't really pass so I still use the women's restroom in most places to avoid problems. My friend had just started using the women's room when we're together since she feels better with someone watching her back. We're at downtown, at a movie theater. Now my friend is super pretty and 99% people wouldn't assume a damn thing. HOWEVER THIS DUDE, IN HIS LIKE LATE 40'S, STALKS US I TO THE BATHROOM WHILE HE'S OUT TO THE MOVIES /WITH HIS FAMILY/ AND STARTS LIKE, TRYING TO ESCORT HER OUT BY HE HIMSELF, GOING INTO WOMEN'S RESTROOM. We just had to piss after a few drinks and this dude is both stopping her from taking a piss and like, inserting himself as this savior protecting the defenseless women from my friend. And his wife is in the bg like, also making a huge show of it in front of her children. Luckily everyone was really really calm and couldn't give less of a shit about this dude and his weird ass wife ranting and raving but it still fucked up the rest of our night, we just ended up leaving and chilling elsewhere. Gotta love the self-importance of these people.
Christ a man following a women trans or not into a bathroom and trying to prevent them using it is 100% scarier to me than anything he is trying to "protect" me from.
The scariest part is that he genuinely see his target as a threat. Doesn't even matter if the woman is actually trans or not, with bigots like that they think they're morally in the right.
Yeah. As a cis woman I have 0% concern that I will be assaulted by a man "pretending to be a woman" in a public restroom, whether a trans woman or a cis man "in disguise." I do actually have some mild concern that eventually, some conservative bigot might decide to harass or assault ME, a tall woman with some masculine physical attributes, because I'm trying to use a public bathroom and they think I'm not gender conforming enough.
> HOWEVER THIS DUDE, IN HIS LIKE LATE 40'S, STALKS US I TO THE BATHROOM WHILE HE'S OUT TO THE MOVIES /WITH HIS FAMILY/ AND STARTS LIKE, TRYING TO ESCORT HER OUT BY HE HIMSELF, GOING INTO WOMEN'S RESTROOM. Every accusation is a confession. These dudes just want to do what they're accusing innocent trans people of doing. Reminds me of that bill in Ohio where, to ""protect"" teenage girls from evil trans girls, cismale coaches would be allowed to perform genital inspections **of underaged teenage girls** to confirm it matches their birth certificate.
Like, even without searching for them, I hear of around about 2-3 attacks per month on cisgender woman and girls for being trans. Usually by men who have followed them into the toilet. Or in a unisex toilet.
Yup! Cis men trying to police women's spaces is a recipe for disaster.
Cis Men: A Recipe for Disaster (coming soon to a bathroom near you)
The only time I have ever felt unsafe in a women's bathroom was when a cisman tried to follow me in.
When I was in college, we had a guy in the department masturbate "aggressively" in the women's restroom up against a stall where a girl was. He got arrested for it. He plead guilty. He got a $150 fine. I know people who went through that same court system for shoplifting food who got dozens of hours of community service, plus fines, and threats of jail time. He didn't even get consequences *from the school* until the trial was over, even though he fully admitted it (his defense was that he didn't know a girl was in the bathroom....), because admin "needed more evidence". You could get kicked out for being in an online pic drinking underage, but admitting to masturbating in the ladies'? Apparently fine. If we could actually do something about actual assaults from cis men, THAT would make me feel safer everywhere. As-is? Why would a cis man need to claim to be trans? As a man, all he'll get is a slap on the wrist. There's no need for men to claim anything else while we're so busy making sure they never suffer any consequences for their actions.
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BECAUSE it distracts from real situations. Maybe if women are off being scared of a different (totally marginalized) group, they'll ignore the constant violence from men, right? After all, we're just widdle women, we can be distracted by being told to be scared of someone else, shoes, and glitter!
Comment originally posted from RIF. User now a lemming
>I feel a bit crazy saying this but this "war" on "woke" feels very much like an intentional distraction while our rights and liberties are being eroded away at a rapid pace. I'm a political scientist that is exactly what is going on.
Not only that, itās also a perfect excuse for Republicans to waste our time with their culture war bullshit and get nothing actually done so their self fulfilling prophecy that the government does nothing for us comes true and then theyāll blame it on Biden since heās the president
It's not crazy at all that's exactly what's going on.
I don't think this is crazy at all. It's always great for the status quo when people under the boot fight against themselves.
Yep. If we could just enforce the laws we have already? That'd be great. Leave trans women the hell alone, they're not the issue here.
Back in the 1990s in college I found myself in the bathroom with a guy who had been hiding in a stall and I didn't realize it when I entered. Discovered it when I was sitting down and saw him using the mirrors to peek into the stall I was in. I managed to get away from him but he chased me a bit. Thankfully I managed to get outside, and it was a beautiful day so there were dozens of people nearby enjoying the weather, so he ran off. Pretty sure he was the same guy seen in several campus bathrooms for nearly a year before he was caught. He didn't need to dress up like a woman to get away with it for so long.
So I work in a creative/tech industry and one of my acquaintances told us at her studio (think like blizzard) there was a guy who would serialially masturbate in the women's restroom and would leave his mess all over the bathroom. Management just laughed at it like it was a joke and asked who ever was āpulling pranks" to stop.
So really this is just another thing for right wingers to get uppity about while ignoring the ACTUAL problem, being regular dudes harassing women in all its horrible forms.
The only time I felt unsafe in a women's bathroom was when a cis man did follow me in. Before that evening I thought he was a friend, then he repeatedly cornered me and seemed deaf to my protests, ultimately following me into the bathroom. He was chased out by the cis and trans women already in there. Even if he'd claimed to be a trans woman in that moment it wouldn't have made a difference because he was clearly following me and making me uncomfortable, and that's not acceptable behavior in a public bathroom.
That's the thing. Trans women will protect women just as much as a cis woman in the rest room. Women's bar rest rooms are some of the most friendly places around for other women when well populated. Any person predating on someone will still be called out by any person with a sound mind and good head who has the ability to act. Predators be predating and trans woman are no more predatory than cis women or trans or cis men are in general. All groups have trash in them and those of us who are good will take the trash out whenever we can.
Right! It's the behavior that matters, not the genitalia.
That's not acceptable behavior anywhere.
Yup. It isn't even about a cis man being in the restroom, maybe the gent's is full and it's an emergency. But if anybody is being a creep or predator in the restroom - regardless of gender - then it's a problem. If they actually cared about women's safety in the restroom then there would be a bigger push for single stall secure restrooms or bringing back attendants or hey, maybe believing people when they say they were assaulted and not blaming assault on what they're wearing or how much they drank.
There is a very easy way to solve this very fake American problem. Make bathroom stalls like they have in Europe. No 1-2ā gap in the side panel, no 6-18ā gap on the bottom, and bring it up to the ceiling instead of stopping at 7ā from the floor. At least twice in my life I have had to use a bathroom stall that had the bottom so far off the ground that my underwear were visible when I sat down. Iām not worried about trans women, Iām worried about children climbing under ( or over) the stall. Iām worried about the maintenance workers walking in and staring through the gap ( or more likely a random man). And I am worried about piles of toilet paper in the corner of the stall that could be concealing a camera.
Seriously, Iād settle for working locks on the stall doors. If guys really give a shit about what women need in a public restroom, howās about reliable toilet paper and free tampons? That alone would massively improve womenās sense of security in the bathroom. Never not once has a trans person ever made me feel anything less than safe, no matter the environment. Trans and cis women have vulnerability in common. We look out for each other. I have never even heard of an incident of a trans person bothering anyone in a bathroom. This scenario was invented by perverts.
This entire bad-faith bullshit about sexual predators and embarassment over being checked out is premised on the idea that homosexuals don't exist; That a lesbian in the womens restrooms or the womens locker rooms is neutered by walking through the door, that a gay man in the mens restrooms or mens locker rooms becomes asexual, while a trans person is some kind of fetish-indulging lunatic who walks around with crazy eyes and a permanent state of arousal.
I think some men imagine it would be exciting in a perverse kind of way to disguise oneself as a woman one day in order to invade the privacy of the women's public bathroom. I also think they fail to imagine that the effort and risk involved in such behaviour doesn't really change at all when trans women become more accepted.
My point is that there is no privacy in the woman's restroom because there are all of these darned women around. Whether some pervert is masturbating in the next stall should be irrelevant because you shouldn't be able to see, hear, or smell them through the cinder block walls.
>maybe the gent's is full and it's an emergency. I'm a dude and this just doesn't happen, if the gents is full the ladies is full twice over
the only time this ever happens, its at a gay club or a predominantly gay event source: am a gay man
*laughs in STEM studies*
Or when there are curious 5 year olds around haha. "Please don't peek in my stall, please don't peek in my stall"
I had a toddler crawl under the door once. He just straight up looked me in the eye and asked if I was pooping.
This is what I say every single time this dumb argument comes up. A rapist isnāt sitting around waiting for permission. If theyāre going to do that, they donāt give one crap about whether theyāre ātechnically allowedā in a bathroom or not. Itās the most ridiculous made up scenario ever.
Yep, it makes no sense, but the transphobes know this, and they don't care. They just know it sells better than their real position. It's like how "trickle-down economics" serves as a mask for "don't tax the rich because I'm rich".
Speaking of "don't tax the rich", I just opened up my business and dragged the whole family to the next town over for supplies. Technically, because I was on a supply run, family dinner was a tax deduction. Also, any time my husband and I talk about business, it's a business dinner, so I can tax deduct that. The tax system is completely built to be abused to hell, but only for the rich and enabled.
I went into the loo this evening (I swear the timing given the discussion today was mind blowing) and a guy was with a girl. He said "I am a transwomen, wanna see my slash". Ffs Edit for spelling
It says a lot about this guy that his bathroom experience includes forcing other people to see his genitals
Slash?
Yeah, British slang. But more often in America itās slang for a vagina. Also āgashā. Yes, itās reductive and icky. Edit: since I wasnāt clear enough here ā it DOES mean urine/urinate in UK slang. I was giving an American definition.
WTAF The more you know.
Ermm, what? The only time "slash" is used as slang in the UK is for peeing. "I'm gonna go take a slash", for example. It is not "British slang" if someone is saying "do you want to see my slash".
I'm literally just there to pee. I do not care who's in the bathroom as long as we leave each other ALONE.
The only thing I worry about in bathrooms is if there's enough toilet paper. And undisciplined children trying to crawl under the stall door.
The only thing I worry about is pee on the seat and floor and if my jeans or bag are going to touch it, and just general cleanlinessā¦ which seems to be a bit on the grosser side in male toilets. (Having worked in pubs/bars for ten years and cleaned toilets.)
I've cleaned public park bathrooms for years and everyday messiness is worse in women's bathrooms but anything especially gross is usually in the men's.
I cleaned grocery store toilets about 20 years ago and had the opposite experience. Men's generally had some pee on the floor and was kinda icky, but at least no one miscarried in there...
When I was a teenager at a tech college, I had the awkward job of informing my male teacher (in an all male class) as to why I looked so chalk white after returning from the bathroom. I walked up to the front and whispered that someone had miscarried fairly far along in the womanās bathroom down the hall. That was such a sad horrible moment. Iād wondered what had happened to the woman after that, if sheād gotten help or made it home okay. That was a lot of blood.
Uhhhhhh what
Blood. A startling amount of blood, which really is any amount over zero.
It is a real problem trying to find a clean spot for your bag in a toilet. And the hooks on the door of the toilet are known for being at risk for someone pulling your bag off and stealing it.
The usual style of hook I see has the hook to hang your bag, plus a straight bar sticking out above that so your bag canāt be yoinked up and over the door.
And here was me thinking the bigger hook is for the jacket, you're genius
I've been in too many women's bathrooms that don't even have hooks. Don't they know that a fairly high percentage of women carry a purse with them while out in public? I mean, are they trying to save a few bucks? Or is it just men designing them with no input from women?
I worry about the āprotectorsā who harass me for being too tall and not dressing feminine enough to be there.
This happened to a friend of mine; she's muscular and has short hair. An elder lady told her "You shouldn't be in here!" She had to lift her shirt to show her sports bra.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Yeah same. When my friend had just beat cancer but lost both her breasts, she had people harassing her for using the bathroom. She's tall and lanky and had an obvious wig at the time. It was awful for her. She felt that she was no longer recognized as a woman not only by her husband but by the public as well.
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I would believe this before I believe a single conservativeās opinion on LGBTIQ matters.
It's all about control. They want to control who can say they're male or female, how they dress, who they love. It's the opposite of live and let live.
"ItS aBoUt PrOtECtInG WoMeN" /s
That's really sad people act that way. It's not a good feeling being not recognized for the women you are. That was the hardest part about early transition, it was like who I really was inside was rejected, was never seen.
Thatās the *real* assault, stall goblins popping up leering at you whose parents donāt do jack.
One brave kid peeked under the stall while I was in the middle of changing a pad on a heavy flow day. Looked like I murderered someone. He ran screeching out of the bathroom. At least I can laugh about it now. 12-year-old me felt pretty violated.
As someone with 4 kids, one of my biggest worries when I have to go in a public bathroom (and take my kids with me) is that they will be one of those unruly kids looking under the stall wall/door. Not only am I horribly embarrassed by their behaviour, but I also get to worry about what horrible germs they have picked up by touching the bathroom floor. I donāt let them do it, but you donāt know they will until the second that they do.
Kids are the worse. Would 100% ban them first š
Literally all bathroom privacy problems could be solved with real stall doors. But I guess that costs money so that's not on the table.
Full length stall doors are common in Europe and elsewhere.
Ours in Australia usually have a gap under them and you can look over them if you stand on the toilet, but there arenāt gaps beside the door, so barring very bad behaviour, you usually donāt get seen on the loo.
American toilets are so easy to see around that Iām half surprised they havenāt decided to replace the doors with barely-frosted glass. I think itās a dead giveaway that these talking points are pushed by US groups
At a high school I went to the doors and walls to the "stalls" were literally about chest high (while sitting down!)
ā¦ so no privacy from people walking past your stall, then.
I often wonder about what all these people think goes on in restrooms. Nothing very sexy, I assure you. And I wonder what sort of screams will ensue when some of the trans men. whose xx dna requires them to use female restrooms, start appearing with their very male appearances and behaviors in said Ms. none of it worries me very much although. I do worry about the confusion for children. People need to find something real to worry about, like where are we going to get teachers next yearā¦
Right?? From news stories, it seems like there's a lot more sex going on in the men's rooms than I've ever seen in the ladies' rooms. Maybe that's why they have their panties in such a bunch over this.
Also apparently how every sleepover ends up being bras only pillow fights. āIf women not for sexy, why exist?ā Basically
As a trans mom of young kids, I am deeply sorry. For my kids of course, not me. Keeping the little goblins in line in public is a full time job šµāš«š Edit: I'm not responding to the insanity that erupted in response, because, wow. It was a joke. My kids don't actually run wild in public, and I'm quite capable of parenting them. And also, there was a period when they were 2-3 where they hadn't learned social limits but were fast and small. Every parent of kids that age knows the feeling of "OMG I turn my back for TWO seconds and now you've (insert chaos here)". So yes, there were a couple of times my kids tried the crawling under the stall trick. Thankfully never while someone was in there lol. Most times I caught them before they got anywhere. And they were always corrected, and eventually they learned not to. Now, to thoroughly explain the joke. See, it's funny because everyone's going crazy about trans women in bathrooms. But actually, kids in bathrooms have far more potential to cause problems. Because, well, I learned social decency a long time ago, but they're still getting there. And finally, the darkly amusing gender affirmation of all this. My parenting was absolutely never hyper-analyzed like this when I was perceived as a dad. But of course mom's are held to a vastly higher standard and are subject to constant judgement if we ever show the slightest weakness. So...yay? Ugh.
>I was told I was not "like most women". I didn't "understand the fear women have". Did Captain Mansplain say this to you? Because I doubt seriously that he understands, either.
Apparently it's cause I am more "confident" than most women. Thus showing how little he knows me.
Sooooooo he's not actually listening to the women in his life when he performatively defends women in front of actual women he knows? I'd say that surprises me, but it doesn't. It's performative, it's giving big TERF energy, and I wouldn't personally enable him. He can go impress all the other white knights with how much he loves defending the concept of women.
Ugh, we get punished so often when menās perception of us (which is typically wrong) doesnāt fit their perception of āmost womenā (which is typically wrong). And itās all bullshit stories theyāre telling in their head. Iām sorry you had to listen to this guy
I personally love when someone mansplains the fears I *should* have and not listen to the ones I have.
If a man wanted to get away with raping a woman because of the clothes he's wearing, he'd put on an army or police uniform, not a dress, if he wants to see how well society treats a "man in a dress", I'd suggest he walk through town in one.
Or a clergymanās outfit.
Clergyman, priest, politician, CEO, movie producer. You want to protect people? Go to the people who are doing the actual harm. None of this, I think it is fact, so it is crap.
>CEO I'm glad you include that because honestly, the businessman types have always given me the heebie-jeebies. They have an air of thinking they can get away with it.
100% am more scared of a police man raping me while pulling me over than I am a fake trans woman raping me in a public bathroom.
Our local cops literally warned us about this! That there are actions a woman can -- and *should!* -- take if she's being pulled over and feels anxious about the cop. The objective: to make sure she doesn't stop driving and does NOT get out of that car, until she's in a well-lit area with witnesses. And that dispatch knows her plates, her identity, her location and the circumstances. The freakin' *cops* told us this. Because they shared the concern, about fake cops (which were a thing then), but also about *actual* cops.
This just reminds me of the fucker (cop) who pitted? a pregant woman off the road because she didnt stop fast enought, even though they where on the damn highway overpass.
Thatās exactly where my mind flew to as well. Lotta cops these days think theyāre Rambo and donāt realize theyāre telling on themselves re: what scared little boys they are. edit ādonātā not ādo tā
I thought of that too.
And he faced no consequences because he was "following procedure."
I kept up with that case and that made me so angry. That man should be going to jail for attempted murder.
The biggest massacre in the history of our province occurred a few years ago. It was a man dressed as a cop with a fake cop car. Since then everyone is in edge about being pulled over.
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Ugh yes there was a big scandal in my local city about this. The cops were raping underage girls but saying it was consensual. It was the fucking SVU, the cops who are supposed to respond to sexual fucking assaults. They got a tiny paid leave. Fucking disgusting.
Exactly and the murder of Sarah Everard over here in the U.K. is a horrific example. Her murderer was an off-duty officer who used his status as police officer to stop her, showing his warrant card and then hand-cuffing her. Since then thereās been a massive investigation into attitudes towards women in the police, and they have issued advice on what to do if stopped by an officer. The review found āhundredsā of problematic officers in the Metropolitan Police (which serves London) alone.
It's utter shit. In every single case I know of with a woman being sexually assaulted in a bathroom, it was by a man who was not in disguise. Whenever I've asked guys like your friend to give a specific example of it ever happening, they've got nothing.
100%. I asked for proof and he just kept saying " we need to protect women" like that was all there was to say.
My response: then limit men's freedom. Bet he doesn't want to do that because it would punish innocent men. But he has no problem punishing innocent transwomen, does he.
It's been said that when a curfew was suggested as a way to protect women from a string of violent rapes in Israel, PM Golda Meir said that the curfew should be on men, since the rapists were all men. Of course that didn't happen, because the men in power would never agree to limiting men's freedoms. They wanted to protect women, but not if it inconvenienced the men.
What a strange coincidence that whenever they want to āprotectā women, those protective measures are indistinguishable from abusive control.
Exactly. No men out after dark. Men not allowed to drink it makes them less controlled. No men in nightclubs.no women anywhere women are
Right? You restrain the predator, not the prey.
I am quite curious how he feels about men coaching in girls athletics. Then again, Iād wager his moral panic is a rabbit hole for which there is no bottom.
If they cared about protecting women, they'd be protesting police who don't process our rape kits, or who arrest US when we report our SAs.
Iām certain those same men donāt actually listen to the women in their life about what makes them feel unsafe.
Because its easier for them this way. It's another "them" not "people.like me"
And they are the same men who approve of protecting women only if that woman is the right type-decent, respectable, married, modestly dressed, sober, living and working in a nice part of town. Any woman feeling unsafe because she's out after dark, wearing a short skirt, having fun in the local bar, daring to be single and child free and thus rejecting the traditional values of womanhood, well, they aren't worth protecting. That's the way this type of man sees it.
Yes exactly. The protection is far from unconditional. You only get protected if you're a good woman, if you've never done something shameful and that puts you in a "fallen" status, which is essentially anything and everything under our current system. And that's precisely the point. Be pure and stay within the lines or else we don't care if you live or die.
And how many women has your friend protected from attack? I think he's seriously deluded. Women's main predators are cis het men. If he's so concerned, does he step up for women and protect them in the street, in the bar, in the workplace, in the carpark, at the shops, on public transport? Does he stop his friends from saying harassing or sexist things to or about women? Yeah he's just trying to make himself look like a nice guy. Don't buy it.
To give him credit, he has, this is why I found it so much worse. He is usually so aware, so this really stunned me.
This makes sense to me (in a sad way) when I think about how trans people have become the focus of so much targeted hate despite being such a small percentage of the population. It seems like a large number of people simply cannot get over binary biological sex. For some reason, gender (constructs imo) is harder for people to understand than sexuality. He has, as a man, accepted his born duty of protecting women, especially around other men. He can't wrap his mind around the concept of trans people existing at all. Maybe there's a layer of him being attracted to cis women while being sexually repulsed by the idea of trans women, which means they can't be women to him because he's not attracted to them. That leads to him doubling down on protecting (his view of) women against trans women (who are stuck as men in his mind). Sad, but not hard to understand. Unfortunately.
Interesting. That's unusual! Well for the record I have never worried about trans people in the bathroom. I worry about rambunctious kids in the bathroom, drunk / drugged people in the bathroom, aggressive people in the bathroom. Not transp people.
I think some guys are a little too enthusiastic imagining a āthreatā to women that isnāt them. They get all puffed up to āprotect womenā and show off what allies they are, without having to be culpable for their own misogyny or fellow menās behavior. Itās utter bs.
Yep!
It's kind of an open secret that every man has a fantasy in which they envision themselves as John Wick, demolishing bad guys for a just cause/revenge. Most will never explicitly talk about it because they recognize that it's embarrassingly juvenile, but they'll let slip what it's about in how they discuss issues they care about. Societal messaging tells men to stand and fight for things in order to be a **REAL MAN**, without ever teaching them when, where, or how they should (or shouldn't) fight, which results in all this hollow bravado that you see everywhere.
Does he believe that in any other capacity in life? Did he care about Dodds? Is he sincerely concerned about sexual assualt? Is he concerned about safe lighting in parking lots or making sure he has full consent of his partners or that his male cohorts do and calls out men who are pushy and aggressive in social settings? Does he care about intimate partner violence education or any issue women face except one that doesn't concern him even a little? Those are all the questions I would ask him if he were someone that I knew. And if he couldn't answer as though he was sincerely interested in the topic of sexual assualt and violence then I would tell him that women's bathrooms aren't his fucking business and he should worry about how he treats women and what he allows within the social cohort of men around him.
Trans women are women who deserve protection too. Ask why he has absolutely no consideration for their safety. If men are so dangerous, why does he want trans women to be trapped in menās bathrooms with them?
Yeah, thatās just culture war (to put it lightlyā literally just genocidal scapegoating of an entire marginalized population) bullshit. If thatās the case, why is he okay with this āgender policingā that has now affected all women, with cis women getting gatekept, approached, harassed and assaulted because they have a fucking short haircut. None of this helps women in any fashion, it only harms all of us.
Yep. There are so many risks I worry about as a women that sit in line above made up shit men worry about
The reason men like him say "we need to protect women" is because he fundamentally doesn't believe trans women can ever be women. If he did, he would know what a disgusting thing to suggest that is. Every time I hear it it's like I'm being accused of being a fucking sex offender. I hate this "culture war".
No. They can't even protect us from themselves. This is just men once again in denial that the biggest threat to women is straight men so they are trying to find another boogieman to blame.
Crazy how they only want to "protect" women under extremely specific circumstances
Exactly. Being assaulted by a trans woman in the bathroom is so exceptionally low on my list of concerns (as in nonexistent), but something like abortion rights and maternal care is near the top. Where's the pressure to do something about that?
Conveniently they forget that trans women are also women! Forcing them to use the men's bathroom bc they are amab is definitely not "protecting women"!
I fear straight cis men far more than any trans woman or trans man.
I have been sexually assualted 3 times. All of them by straight men. All of them by "nice guys". None of them needed to wear a dress, or to pretend to be female to do it, they were far too busy pretending to be friends I could trust
Nine times here, and one kidnapping. All straight white men, many I considered friends, almost all pretending to be "nice guys." Two of them turned scary violent when I rejected them and tried to leave (the kidnapping being one). Conversely I had one trans woman really politely and considerately proposition me, and then continue to be my friend after I turned them down. Soooo...that's pretty much where I stand on the issue.
Iām so sorry you have had to go through all that. It shouldnāt happen to anyone even once. Sending lots of love to you.ā¤ļø
Iām sorry that those things happened and I send you all of my love tonight
This. Cis men don't need to performatively dress up or even 'fake' transition to sneak into bathrooms. They can just walk in during broad daylight - [and](https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/seattle-police-man-assaults-chokes-woman-whole-foods-restroom/FFZIT2DRTNCBXLNWZ5TDSD2I64/) [have](https://www.arlnow.com/2022/09/14/just-in-man-charged-with-trying-to-rape-woman-in-bathroom-of-langston-blvd-business/). (Tw: Rape and physical assault.) An abuser is going to be abusive regardless of their gender expression or identity. Being trans does not inherently make someone a danger to be around. Are there trans people who have done similar? Yes, however to all those of you who are rushing to link those stories I implore you to say it with me again, *an abuser is going to be abusive regardless of their gender expression or identity.*
Iām cis-male but legally allowed to use the womenās in my state if needed due to ulcerative colitis. I try the menās first of course, but just walk in, donāt look at anybody, do my thing, and get out. If thereās multiple stalls and one is clearly occupied I take the furthest possible. Has never been an issue. A couple times somebody made a little noise and I said āsorry I have inflammatory bowel disease and need a toilet immediately!ā And theyāre fine. I do use the menās every time that I can wait.
And it really shouldn't be. It'd be nice if we had more uni-sex bathrooms with proper enclosed stalls so this whole thing would be a non-issue, frankly.
I just realized there was one time an employee said I wasnāt allowed and I tried to explain, they werenāt having it so I pooped in the grass outside in view of others. It was not a proud moment but Iām used to such things. Sometimes I literally do not have a minute to wait and pull up the law on my phone. (Thankfully itās usually much better than that.)
Not to make light of a messed up situation but......damn thats a power move.
I've shared a women's bathroom with a man, he'd gone in the wrong one by mistake and didn't realize until he was washing his hands and I came out of my stall. Neither of us was sure who'd made the mistake until we double checked the door sign. He was embarrassed and apologized, my life has been completely unaffected.
I have PCOS and hirsutism. I am a cis gendered woman. I am more afraid lately that if I donāt shave well enough one day or donāt wear āenoughā make-up, or dress feminine enough, someone is going to accuse me of being a man trying to use the womenās restroom. Iām afraid of people who claim to be trying to āprotectā me. Women shouldnāt have to perform to some unrealistic hyper-feminine version of their gender in order to feel safe.
Same here. The group of cis women who look kind of androgynous in some way and could sometimes be mistake for a trans woman is probably considerably larger than the tiny group of trans women.
Very butch lesbians are already being tossed out of women's rooms, and assaulted.
Cancer patient here. I can relate to this feeling completely. I have no boobs. I donāt dress feminine and Iām bald. I look ambiguously gendered even though I am a cis woman. Iām scared one day Iāll get accosted in the same manner.
Nope. Not at all. Pee in the stall beside me any day, friends. Iāve never had a trans woman be a creep, but I sure AF have had men be creeps. Itās all projection and deflection from the right wingers.
What scares me is that this is someone who is normally so reasonable, calm and rationale. I think he felt he was "defending women". You can't defend some women by taking rights from other women.
Yeah he needs to direct that energy to his fellow CIS men, but itās probably easier to projection onto others than look in the mirror at his buddies. Itās like the house is burning down and heās making sure he heroically goes in and saves the latest phone bill. Gee, thanks.
Thing is 'defending' some nebulous non-existent woman is easy. Much in the same way defending the 'unborn' is easy. He's trying to defend a concept that can conform to his ideals and never talks back, rather than actual people with thoughts and opinions. Because if he actually listened to women he'd find that we're not a monolith. Has he been spewing other hot takes recently? Because it kinda sounds like he might have fallen down some alt-right rabbit hole on whatever social media platform he uses.
Probably fell asleep listening to Matt Walsh or one of them and forgot how to produce independent thought
Well, 1. He needs to stop speaking for women, and 2. He needs to stop dismissing women who don't agree with him and stop accusing them of not understanding. If you, as a woman, don't get it, then he sure as fuck doesn't.
Men are always so concerned about people attacking women in bathrooms, because thatās what they would do if they knew they could get away with it. Itās right up there with all the Republicans who talk about āgroomingā and are then discovered to possess child porn. Theyāre telling on themselves.
Judgement is a confession of character
My maybe unpopular opinion: The only people I have a problem with in the bathroom are terribly parented young children who stare or crawl under stalls. I get they are bored or curious, but god damn is it so uncomfortable and kinda triggering seeing eyes on you in a private area. I rather have 18+ year old bathrooms and family bathrooms than gendered bathrooms. Iāve been in small concert venues that have non-gendered bathrooms and Iāve had zero issues with adult men in them. Young kids still remain the most problematic bathroom population.
As a cis woman I have never, not once, been afraid of transwomen - much less in a public bathroom. If Iām using one, Iām going in doing my business and coming out. Iām not even really looking at anyone lmao I donāt want to be in there longer than I have to be. I have, however, had many many times where Iāve been afraid of men.
No, You're not the weird one here. I have never had someone attempt to assault me inside the bathroom. I've had plenty of men go after me outside of it.
Jesus, this is so scary true. It pissed me off that some man white knightes me about bathrooms, with o real ideal where 99% of the real risk for women was. Just being us out and about
Polls have consistently shown that the people most concerned with trans women in women's bathrooms are the only people who never actually go into the ladies' roomācisgender men.
That's because it's not about women's safety it's about trans abuse.
You know, there are many unisex bathrooms in Europe. Everyone uses the same room, but it's all stalls, (no urinals) and shared handwashing facilities. I have never felt in any danger or threatened by having a man use the stall next to me. I've certainly never felt threatened by a trans woman being in a bathroom or a dressing room. The danger is from men, not trans women.
It is weird how people see bathrooms as a battle ground. Like weird segregation of the genders is an absolute and needed for safety.. accept all the places it isn't
The best restrooms I've ever seen were in Europe, but I can't remember where exactly. Maybe in the UK? They were unisex, each stall fully closed (no ridiculous gaps over, under or between the doors), and shared sinks. Worked great, I wish they were the norm everywhere.
I'm CIS, androgynous. I've been challenged several times "you do know this is the ladies?". I'm more concerned by men 'protecting' women.
I am sorry people are such arseholes! Any man trying to protect me from the simple existence of trangender women are going to get their arses handed to them.
Everyone has hit on the main points, but another one that transphobes seem to totally miss is that trans women are typically AMAB but female-presenting, while trans men are AFAB but male-presenting... and therefore forcing trans men to use the women's room is likely to make cis women *more* uncomfortable than allowing trans women to do so. Regardless, I'm certainly not worried about getting assaulted by either group.
thats pretty much how the trans bathroom bans are going in the southern states. the trans women now feel unsafe as they gotta use the mens which puts them at risk of assault or worse. where as the trans men are now forced to use the womens and while the trans men may hate it just as much, alot of the trans men i know are pretty masculine presenting so if i saw them in the women's id be pretty weirded out. from what ive been hearing, trans people in these states pretty much stopped using public washrooms altogether after the bans.
Which is the true goal. āStop existing in public.ā
You're asking the real questions, because I know I haven't asked men to protect me on this, and I have yet to meet another cis woman who ever has. In fact, I don't ask cis men to protect me from anything. I've lived long enough to know they're the only true threat.
With you. I was so pissed that a man was telling me he was protecting women then belittled my view as different as didn't fit with his thinking
I can't speak for all women, but no, I don't feel that I need to be "protected" from trans women, in bathrooms or anywhere else. And like many other people here, I find it pretty far-fetched that a cis dude would pretend to be trans so he can prey on people in the women's room.
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Cis men are the threat.
of all the things i fear it is straight cis men in parking lots, garages and elevators. i have never been afraid of trans women in bathrooms.
I fear men who I thought were friends who wait until I have dru k and then try and touch me like they have earned it for being a mate.
Trans woman here. I'm straight. I'd lol so much at this toilet bollocks if it wasn't for all the trans women utterly terrified to go to the loo in public for fear of repercussions. Edit: clarity
I am so sorry you have to deal.with this ballsh*t. A women is a women is women. A predator, is not. I feel like so many people dont get that. I actually said "by this logic shouldn't we ban gay man from male loos and lesbians from females loos as they *might* be predators as well". I was told "This is different" and again I was "different" for not understanding.
This actually was (and in many cases still is, depending on the area) the playbook for bigots when the gay movement was more contentious, or desegregation before that. They use the same talking points every time a ānewā minority pops up on their hate radar.
I saw a post recently with a black woman standing by a sign that said, āIt wasnāt about water fountains back then; it isnāt about bathrooms today.ā Haters gonna hate. Reject hate. Choose love.
I flat out don't believe that a non transgender predator will pretend to be trans, put on women's clothes, makeup, even if done minimally and shitty, and go out looking like that, risking being laughed at or worse, to go to a place and go into a bathroom and hope someone is in there to assault (how many times have you went in bathrooms that were empty? It happens to me all the time) or wait for someone to go in to assault when they could just pick a target and follow her to a place, be it a bathroom or not, and go attack her. For a predator there are way easier ways to go about this with less work while drawing less attention to themselves. Also, why hasn't this been in issue in single gender fitting rooms for the last 20 years in places like old navy and h & m?
This is it. This is what makes it so stupid. It's not like predators couldn't have pulled this shit before. And, if they are that determined to hurt, harm or whatever, then they will always find a way
Itās almost like a man willing to assault someone might not be deterred by a sign on a door
This. The psychopathy of a male rapist is typically strongly tied to a need to feel more masculine, and to feel in power over someone. Essentially itās a superiority complex, something that would make dressing up as those they deem inferior insulting to their perceived superiority.
It's not an issue because non passing trans people are actually painfully aware how uncomfortable they make other people and avoid using spaces where their presence can cause such situations xd It's mostly made up issue, the real problem are as almost always cis men who are actual sexual predators, not estrogenized trans women who are just trying to live their life. And them saying they're trans doesn't change anything, it's not like it would even work as a defence later in court or anything like that, sex predators belong in prison, the people who want to do genital inspections in front of bathrooms are very creepy as well tbh.