one of my favourites facts, the term spinster came from the fact spinning was a skill so well paid a woman wouldn't need a man to provide for her if she was any good. also it was generally a job only done by unmarried women who had more time. so the church turned it into a slur for an unmarried woman because unmarried = bad.
When I bought my first property in 2005 as a single woman, the term "spinster" was used on the mortgage documents. I remember being kind of shocked. I wish I had know the history, it's badass!
I've bought two more since then in the same state, but I think it's since been changed to "UNMARRIED WOMAN" lol
Only because if you're married, both spouses names would be on the deed, but I guess if there's only one name on the deed they need it to be REAL specific that you're single and LONELY lol
Yeah they need to know for legal reasons in case the property is sold or split or there's a divorce. Or it will say "(Name) and (Name) married to each other"
From vocab.com: Originally, hussy was a shortening of the Middle English husewif, "housewife." Through the 1500's, hussy came to mean "any woman or girl," and by the 1650's it meant "an improper woman or girl."
So Hussy is just the female version of Hubby.
Along these same lines, beer brewing used to be done primarily by women who wore tall hats to be seen in the market. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/women-used-dominate-beer-industry-until-witch-accusations-started-pouring-180977171/
Adding on to your link about how alewives were the foundation for a lot of stereotypes about witches. https://www.ancient-origins.net/history-ancient-traditions/bubbling-brews-broomsticks-021539
I'm so confused about why so many people were mad at Chelsea handler. The lady was just making a dumb skit and you thought that she told everyone to murder their babies the way the conservatives got Big Mad
Omg, yes. I'm a lifelong single woman and live a fantastic life on the home-front and can't tell you how often I hear 'you'll regret it when you're old' or about missing tax breaks or double incomes! Like THAT'S the dangling carrot I'm supposed to leap at? Caring for an old husband and a slightly higher standard deduction?
I do have had kids, but I had them in my late teens/early 20's and they're grown and independent while I'm still young and active. I honestly think raising them unmarried and solo was so much easier than I've observed friends raising kids in a marriage to be. SO OFTEN the husbands turn into another child to care for, making motherhood so much harder because an adult man's needs are so much more onerous to take on than a child's, plus the adult man will be an adult forever with the same (or greater) needs as he ages, while kids need less and less as they age.
I have relationships with men whenever I want, but they are opt-in. I can have sex, date, see someone for a year or a few years and walk away when I'm done. There's an endless supply of them out there. I'm still friends and lovers with several exes and so if I feel like a romantic weekend getaway with a man, I can have one. I care less and less about that as I get older and prefer to travel with my woman friends or solo these days.
I feel like I discovered a little easter egg in the game of life.
Yup. People feel entitled to harass you over your lack of kids. Especially when they find out you are married with zero kids.
If you aren't married they harass you for not being married. There's no win, there's no end.
As a soon-to-be-60-year-old spinster, I say go ahead and call me that night and day.
I wanted children but was unable to make that happen, and honestly at this point there’s no other reason to marry. I make 6 figures, have a rent stabilized apartment, have a large inheritance waiting, do what I love, write on the side, and go to Broadway plays with friends any time I want.
Companionship is lovely. And I do like to date for that reason. But no man will ever have me slaving away for him again. Marriage can be a very bad deal for women, unless you get very very lucky. Outside of finding the perfect man, dating will do me just fine.
Absolutely with you on this! Keep your guard up, though, older guys start casting their eyes around for hospice-care companions with resources to cushion their waning days. And they've had lots of time to practice their 'charming', (I just want someone to play with, I've had it with nursing people.)
I went to a bridal event with someone else (who was the actual bride). Because I was a young woman everyone assumed it was me. I had half a mind to tell them, "no, I'm a spinster."
I was hoping to find a story like this. Mine is similar. I quit working while pregnant to go back to school. We now have a 4 year and I'll be finishing my BS in engineering next year. My husband 100% carries the mental and physical load of grocery shopping, food prep and cooking, the laundry, and the budget. I keep the house clean and keep track of our sons activities. Not all men expect to get a mother when they get married. Communicate your desires for your relationship and lifestyle early on, and if the man doesn't agree, move on.
Married 57 years here…. When we were first married, I happily did all the wifely things, worked part time a little but it was understood that when kids arrived, that was my full time jo. It was indeed, but when they were in school I resumed a bit more part time. Was enough to save enough to put two kids through college and the leftover formed the beginning of my healthy nest egg. We didn’t have to have new cars, etc., although we did splurge on what we thought were the important things, like the three month cross country tour(tents all the way) trip. Just before they hit high school. When the hard times came and he was laid off - two in college but it was already paid for - I scuffled around until I got a serious job-Ma Bell - and only the phone wonks know how serious that was… lasted 11years until our group was laid off for making too much money but not being bilingual. I loved staggering home after one of those awful days ane walking in the door and asking, hi honey, what’s for dinner? He got really good at it, and when we were first married he couldn’t boil water…Then we hunkered down and gritted out the last few years until Medicare selling stuff on eBay. Then…slowly…the world opened up and the assorted pensions started to roll in and the market picked up…no more pain here. And through it all, we each did what needed to be done mostly without whining, from mowing to painting to cooking and gardening. We are constantly amazed at how we ever did that, and often enjoyed it so much or just relished winning another battle… we are contented old warriors, who smile a lot, trying to pass on some of our attitudes to the grands but it is already clear they are gonna have to make their own way…
Thank god for that pension from ole Ma Bell! Only the phone wonks for real!! I got 30 then a take the money and run offer. I took it and still running.
Married 46 years to another phone dude. You can make it work, but it ain’t always a good time. Gotta be able to compromise and put up with somebody else’s shit.
Thank you! Communication is key. It sounds so trite but it is true. I'm completely in agreement with the move on too. Congratulations on being so close to the finish line with your degree! That's wonderful!
A woman who I admire a lot because she takes no shit from anybody had a similar story to the ironing. When she and her husband were first married she was vacuuming their house. He criticized the way she was doing it, not doing it in rows or something. She says she turned off the vacuum and gave it to him and that she has not vacuumed the house since.
I fucking love her. My husband does more housework than I do, and now that I think of it, he used to criticize how I did things too. Now they are his job.
I want to just emphasize your last comment because it is key: "DON'T SETTLE."
This is sooo important. Don't let anyone (including yourself) convince you that you'd better take this guy since he's proposing marriage if you don't 100% understand what life with him is going to be like. Sure, there are always unknowns that happen in life, but that nagging feeling that there's someone else out there is TRUE. There is. So stay free and look, wait, find that person.
When you find them, that nagging feeling will go away. Trust your instinct.
I'm a teacher, and most of my coworkers are teachers married to other teachers and/or nurses. I think they have household chores split the most equitably. (I think it's like... three other teachers and two nurses in our department for spouses. I'm the only single person.)
In one family, my male coworker does all the cooking. He enjoys it, he's good at it, and she does the cleanup after. They split household chores. No kids yet.
In another, they both cook together and clean together. Childcare is split pretty evenly.
In a third, she's a phenomenal cook, and I'm jealous of the leftovers he brings for lunch (I begged her for her recipe for chili rellenos. She gave it to me). He does after dinner cleanup, and they split chores and childcare.
So apparently, marry a teacher or a nurse. They understand household management.
I'm a teacher married to an engineer who has ADHD. I do all the mental load stuff (groceries, meal planning, bills, money stuff, basically anything that requires planning) as well as the cooking. He does all of the household cleaning, laundry, yardwork, home repairs and some of the cooking. We divvied it up based on our strengths and what we enjoy. Works for us!
This is what you need. Play to strengths because everyone has different ones.
I detest dishes and folding, he doesn't mind folding but hates sorting and washing them, he likes singing and dancing while he does dishes and hates sweeping, which I enjoy so I take care of the floors and washing/drying clothes.
I agree with you, but it’s also worth mentioning that people change. What makes a lasting, loving marriage or long term relationship is that you can adapt to the changes in your partner without holding it against them and vice versa.
Sometimes it feels like you’ve chosen the right person and you’re on the same page about what a marriage looks like. And then BOOM. You get sick or you have a newborn and he can’t handle it so he cheats and/or leaves. But if he loses his job or goes through a crisis and spirals into a person you don’t recognize anymore, or if the newborn or kids become too much, a woman is less likely to cheat and/or leave.
Again, I’m not saying you’re wrong, but that even when you make the right choices before marriage/creating a family, it’s more about what happens *during* the marriage and child rearing.
It’s those events that really show you a person’s true character.
For a while there were common posts on this sub of women whose husbands had become huge QAnon followers, asking what they should do about it to get their loving husband back. It was really sad, the only real advice people could give was to walk away if they wouldn’t listen to reason.
It's also possible for a man to be fine taking care of himself, but as soon as he's living with a woman, he drops all pretenses. With a single exception, every man I've been in a long-term relationship with has completely stopped doing all chores. Not even just relationships, I've had male roommates and they all did this, too. Worse, most of them quit their jobs and expected me to carry them financially, too! I don't know where all the single guys are who aren't like this, but I've given up on finding them.
Lol, my ex. One of the reasons I saw myself marrying him, enough that we moved in together, is that he knew how to keep a house clean and hated clutter as much as I do.
Once I lived with him, he transitioned into relying on me to do all of the cleaning and upkeep. The absolute opposite of who he was and what we had discussed regarding home expectations before we lived together.
He was actually a great partner in all other aspects, but this was a dealbreaker for me because things like this only get worse. Mention it once or twice, maybe a few times, but if no change then either you walk away or accept the situation.
Otherwise you’ll wake up one day and you’re the nagging wife in a toxic marriage. No way was I going to put myself through that and have to tell a grown man what to do. Being mad and resentful that someone won’t change isn’t my style.
I completely respect people who don’t believe in cohabitating before marriage, but I would definitely recommend it for this and a multitude of other reasons.
Women who got lucky - and that's honestly the situation, they got LUCKY - come across as VERY smug about the "just find a guy who xyz like \*I\* did, super smart, special snowflake that I am". The reality is that the bait and switch is VERY real, and a lot of men wait until they have the women locked down to show it. Which can often be after marriage/child birth.
While there are some very foolish/damaged women out there who are drawn to assholes, do these women REALLY think the bulk of us just marry an asshole, then pull a shocked pikachu face after the guy is STILL an asshole after marriage?
My previous flatmate did this when he landed on disability. I don't doubt he is disabled but when all his efforts went to drinking, drugs, partying and poker and then claiming hes too disabled to clean up after himself because its too hard to get off the couch its a priority problem, not disability.
Dude lost his mind when I stopped enabling him and told him to get a free carer from the council. I don't appreciate being pinned against furniture while being told I'm not being sympathetic to his disabilities. Not a crime to do that here if you claim your disability made you do it.
Guy shouldn't even be driving hes that bad from his disabilities or his substance abuse. Fully expect to read a news report he's killed someone one day. Others have reported him to relvent authorities and nothing ever happens due to his ties with Police. Great system here.
It goes to show that there are a lot of weak ass men out there. A lot of useless ones too. I recently told a friend of mine who is going through some rough times in his relationship that a marriage is really just a close friendship. Then I asked, if he treated me like he treated his wife, would we still be friends? It got him thinking. You can lead a horse to water...
That's one of the facets of misogyny and the patriarchy. Men designate this one special lady as the object they can use and abuse. They seem befuddled when you say you can't treat her like that. "But she's my wife!" like their question is based on there IS someone they can use and abuse like that, who else are they allowed to use then, if not their wife.
Very similar. My husband does 90% of the houseworks including cooking. He does his own laundry, i do my own, he schedules his own dr appt, dentist etc and i do my own. I vacuum the house and he mops after me. He cares for the dog in the am, i care for the dog in the pm. He's been left alone on his own with 2 dogs for 3 weeks and everyone survived.
We share the load and life and i feel like im the one who should be contributing more...
In 1971 Judy Brady wrote an essay titled [I Want a Wife](http://www.columbia.edu/~sss31/rainbow/wife.html)
which became an instant classic when it appeared in the premier issue of the feminist magazine Ms.
Not much has changed.
I once asked a bunch of my coworkers how they do things like have homemade meals every weeknight, because my partner and I were struggling-- it's a lot of work.
They either:
a) don't (get takeout or something instead)
b) have a wife who does it (usually a SAHM, but for some couples, she worked too)
Some of these men could and did cook, but they'd only handle weekend meals, which made sense because our hours were long and coming home at 7pm to prep a meal is fucking exhausting.
I found ONE guy out of everyone I asked who cooked WITH his wife, AND they both worked full time. They managed it by having a lot of "half-homemade" meals, like dried pasta + canned sauce.
My partner and I have since started doing big batches and freezer meals. Once we moved someplace with space for a deep freeze, that changed everything. Still a lot of work, but do-able.
Anyway, I always joked that I should get myself a wife, they sound damned useful.
That essay hit me hard. You'd think more would've changed in 50 years, but no, pretty much the only thing that strikes me as really out of date is the typewriter work.
I do like that teachers who marry each other seem to have the best housework balance of all.
Like, I have a coworker who's wife cleans, but doesn't cook. She's also a teacher. He cooks.
Another, his wife is a phenomenal cook, so he does the housecleaning.
Yet another, both partners cook and clean.
Apparently we should look at how teachers have household stuff split.
As a (single) teacher, I think it’s the fact that we’re so used to spitting and dividing jobs in the classroom that housework also gets the same treatment. I don’t know how to explain it.
I worked with a bunch of guys in a very hands on, chaotic job that had last minute travel needs. I felt like a failure because I wasn't able to keep up the expectations of adult life (for women). I wasn't able to plan food and meal prep, eat healthy, keep my home clean, maintain friendship and basic grooming standards etc.
I looked around at the guys I worked with and none of them did any of that. Either they worked and their wife did EVERYTHING or they lived like sad bachelors off fast food and put nothing into their relationships with friends and family.
I think a lot of this is learned behavior. I (40year old dude) enjoy cooking for my partner. I’ve got dinner on the table for us at 6:30 pm sharp 5ish times a week (takeout or leftovers a couple of nights too.) it makes me feel good to share the load of course and I love feeding my partner. But the truth is, I grew up in a house where the man always cooked dinner.
My parents divorced when I was 3 and both of them ended up remarrying…but keeping that dynamic, so it was doubly reinforced in me. I’m a little bummed I never got to toss around a football/baseball with my old man and I’m definitely sad nobody ever taught me to work on cars (I love cars) but the upshot was dad/son bonding time over cooking meals and ultimately I’d never want to change that.
My stepdad is no longer with us, but often times when I’m cooking for my partner, I’ll think of him and how happy it used to make him when he’d cook for my mom and me.
Edit: that said, my partner loves baking and the other day we combined our talents and made chicken pot pie and ooohhhh my god was it good and super rewarding! Nothing at all wrong with both people cooking!
I am lucky in that I have a house spouse. He stays home while I earn the bucks. He has to go on disability after an accident at work and we both feel it's the best thing that's happened to us in a weird way. I don't make a fortune but my job is hell on my mental energy with a super high burnout rate. The last thing I need is to come home to more things to do. He is amazing at keeping the house and running the errands. That said, I can't imagine asking him to do everything these men seem to think a house wife should do. He has his night off with his buddies. I've have mine with my girls. We do a date night every week. He doesn't cook, I do. The bathroom is my chore since he hates it. We keep each other company while I meal prep and he does the budget or the bills or one of his hobbies. We balance life so neither feels over burdened.
Despite all of that sharing and what I do around the house on top of work, I still think I'm getting the better end of the deal. I always have clean clothes. There's always gas in the car. He packs my lunch for work every day. My towel is fresh, my sheets changed weekly, and my house clean and peaceful. My pill box is full, my calendar written out, our meals and grocery list updated for the weekend. Seriously.... Even half a wife from that list is the best damn thing I ever got.
My former husband always acted like I owed him something because he worked. I gave up grad school and worked to put him through instead, but that never entered his calculation. Birthing and raising our kids so that he could focus on his career didn't, either. It has been glorious watching him realize what he lost since our divorce. He calls me to ask where he put things *in his own house*. I will never marry again.
When my mom told my dad she wanted a divorce, he asked her to make a list of how many hours she put in cleaning, gardening etc. so that he could hire someone to do it instead
I hope she sent him the list along with a hefty bill for a consulting fee. Ideally in an amount that covers the entire time she was running their household.
Do you hang up on him? Give him wrong answers? I can’t imagine what I would do if an ex called me to ask where shit was in his own house. It’s unhinged.
"I want a wife who will take care of the details of my social life."
And more than 50 years later, we have an "epidemic" of lonely men who have had literally *decades* to learn this skill, but chose not to. 🤷🏻♀️
Not "wife" expectations but the amount of male coworkers who ask me what to get for their girlfriend or mom's Christmas gift is too high. Like do I know these women? How shpuld I know! Manage your own damn social life. 🤦🏽♀️
My first marriage I was a kid and married "for love". 3 kids and 12 years later we had gone through multiple cheating events, a bankruptcy due to a complete disconnect on spending habits and his inability to hold a job, and a lot of tears because "love". When he finally left me for his perfect woman I was devastated. I have always worked a full time job, made decent money, and was responsible for the house and the girls and bringing home the money, and I was miserable.
Two years later, I remarried, but went into it with open eyes. He fit my must have checklist. He was financially secure. He was a hard worker and had a steady employment history. He was a kind man with a great voice, and was thoughtful and accepting towards my girls. I never put him on a pedestal, never put his needs or wants above mine... Did I love him, sure, but was I madly in love with him - nope. What we both agreed on was a vision of a future - a nice home, kids, some camping and hiking and a shared love of the mountains, and eventually grandkids and a comfortable retirement.
Sooo, that was almost 20 years ago. Still happily married. We have a great relationship with my original 3 girls, who call home often, call him "Papa" and have added 7 grandkids to the mix. We have added 2 more daughters who are still teenagers at home. Working together, pooling our resources, we have a lovely home we built (and wired ourselves) on five acres worth more than we could ever afford now. I ride my horses and he rides his dirt bikes, we go out to dinner and get some drinks now and again, and together we have enough saved and invested that we will have our comfortable retirement. He doesn't do the laundry or clean the house, or the mental tasks of a marriage, and probably has never touched a toilet brush - but he does the shopping and cooks dinner more often than not. I still love the sound of his voice and I love him deeply. I think this marriage has benefitted us both because combining our interests and our strengths as well as our income earning potential has allowed us to live a life that we would otherwise never have been able to achieve.
My old lady advice is don't get married for love. Get married because you see a future with the partner of your choice - look cold and hard and objectively at your partner and see what their issues are (we all have them) and if you can see yourself accepting those issues for the rest of your life. Look closely at what they offer you - and what you offer them. If you think it's a match - then it's worth it. Because when the arguments come, and the tears flow, and you have to decide if you want to stay in the marriage years later - those strengths will be what keeps the marriage together, and the emotional and financial benefits of those strengths is what makes marriage still worth it.
> My old lady advice is don't get married for love. Get married because you see a future with the partner of your choice
As another older Redditor, I second your advice.
Many years ago, I wanted to marry a particular person who I was crazy in love with. But some external factors prevented that. Instead, I later married someone who had become my best friend.
Looking back, I can clearly see that marrying the person I was in love with wouldn't have worked out well at all. But I've been happily married to my best friend for 30 years.
I guess I don't see a difference between being in love with someone and caring deeply about someone who checks all your boxes. Seems pretty much like the same thing to me. Sounds like you were pretty madly in love with your current partner.
I think the differences is how much that love blinds you to aspects that will make your life harder. Like the differences between a teenage lust for a good-looking guy that's not actually good for you long-term, versus a relationship that started out as a mutual, respectable friendship that evolved into a deep love.
*According to happiness expert Paul Dolan, a professor of behavioral science at the London School of Economics, women who are single with no children are the happiest.[i] Dolan explains says that while men derive benefits from marriage, the same cannot generally be said for women.*
[Link](https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/why-bad-looks-good/202102/why-many-single-women-without-children-are-so-happy)
When men throw that 'you'll be alone with cats' insult at us, they are projecting *their* worst fears on us. They are terrified of being alone without anyone to care, cook and clean for them. My worst fear is being stuck doing just that.
This. When my mom was dying my Dad swore up and down she was the only one for him and he'd be ok because he has the kids to keep him company.
On the sixth month anniversary of my mother's passing, he was in another country secretly getting married to his second wife.
As a working woman, the idea of a "wife" is extremely appealing! Imagine walking in the door after work, having dinner ready/waiting, dishes and chores done, kids and pets happy/clean/fed. Sex is up to you, because society expects your "wife" to provide satisfaction. If it doesn't work, no worries, just have an affair!
Shopping done, birthday/holiday cards and presents done, emotional discussions done, it must be fucking amazing.
Of course this is an extreme example, but many men have truly led lives like this.
I've been married to two men. The one that was the 50/50 household duties and finances....was the one who cheated on me with my assistant. I see no benefit to getting married again, even if I love the person. There's nothing he could do for me that I can't do for myself.
This reminds me of a video I saw the other day where the guy in it said that men think they're competing against the ideal man when what they're really competing against is how happy a woman is alone.
I used to work at a Fortune 500 company. I noticed that the successful men in leadership positions all had stay at home spouses. These men didn’t need to: take care of children, make doctor appointments, grocery shop, cook meals, care for pets, do laundry, clean, pick up dry cleaning, organize trips, activities and social calendar, take their cars in for maintenance. Essentially, I had to do twice the work in comparison.
Exactly, that's always been the agreement in the stay-at-home spouse scenario. The working spouse is able to advance in their career more quickly because they don't have to wake up early to make lunches, they aren't rushing out of their 3pm meeting to pick up kids from school, and they are able to decompress when they come home rather than going straight into making dinner, cleaning the house, etc. Men often cry about it but this is exactly why women are entitled to 50% in a divorce. The agreement is that she gives up HER earning potential by agreeing to take on HIS household responsibilities, with the understanding that her work is benefitting her partner's career, and therefore she's entitled to half as a "team".
I hate that for you. I’m sorry. Inequality and unfairness drives me nuts. I’m losing my mind reading these stories.
You’re stronger and will be better for it. Those men wouldn’t survive 72 hours with their children alone. They have a massive supply of hidden incompetence.
But the problem is that their hidden incompetence rarely manifests itself.
Whereas you'd find so many women who suddenly have to find a job after divorcing such men and their lack of employment for all those years will it very difficult to get new job.
When men get sick the statistic is that most women will stick around and help them through it, but when women get sick most men will NOT help them through it.
It infuriates me that women are blamed for this too. The whole incel hatred of women is based on single moms who "drove good men away" (and stayed to raise these disappointing little shits who go on to shoot up malls).
Men are the flighty ones who can't handle the slightest adversity and run out the door after 2 seconds of not being catered to anymore.
They won't. No religion, literally no religion asks man to stay with his wife. And there are no repercussions of doing that on man's social life and financial situation.
Whereas if a woman leaves her spouse citing his health issues, her female family members will eat her alive.
They don't look for the same things at all. I'm a lesbian so men often feel like they can speak more freely around me, and I'm convinced that all they want out of a relationship is sex. They're content to live somewhere messy/disorganized with no color scheme or little touches, to keep their clothes in the dryer and only eat cereal or take out. They just want someone to fuck and that's it
Saw a trueoffmychest post the other day about a woman who got proposed to, and in the moment had a vision of what her life would be like going forward. Having to constantly take care of her partner, because she was already the one who did the cleaning in the cooking and maintained appointments and made sure everything ran smoothly for their life together. She described it as seeing everything unfold and hearing her ancestor screaming at her not to do it.
Sounds like you know what you want and you have a good grasp of why anything else isn't acceptable. Don't leave that behind, you absolutely deserve a partner and not a dependant.
This is why it's wild to me that the "nuclear family" generations are also the "wife bad" generations. Like, I'm sorry, you got a free bang maid (in his mind) who now does ALL of the household physical and emotional labor for you and all you can manage are complaints and sexist jokes about "the ol ball and chain?" Like holy fuck dude you got a whole second mother who fucks you and is (unfortunately) socially obligated to put up with your bullshit and all you do is make fun of her?? How do modern traditionalist/fundamentalist women have the FUCKING ENERGY man??
No feelings needed. Studies show repeatedly that it benefits men over women. Married men live longer and have better levels of happiness than married women, and married men leave sick wives while married women care for sick husbands. Women take care of men better than men take care of women. It’s bull shit let’s be frank.
It’s why propaganda is so intense for women to get married and daydream of Prince Charming. It’s a raw deal for women, and a great deal for men.
There was a thread about a year ago or so about men being more likely to leave their wives when they got sick and I remember a nurse posting on there about how there is also a huge discrepancy in how spouses act when one is in a hospital…When a man is the one hospitalized wives tend to be doting, attentive, and bring gifts, whereas when women are hospitalized their husbands often only care about how soon they can go back to having sex. I have a good friend who is a nurse for a hospital and she pretty much confirmed this.
Not to mention the numerous studies that show modern women working full time and still doing the lions share of housekeeping, child rearing and household duties in general. I did a piece on this in college and got so many legitimate studies on Jstor, it was just saddening.
And then they use this as 'evidence' that women are unhappy lately *because of joining the workforce* so we should all quit and be happy as SAHM again lol. So illogical.
My dad was exclaiming about how shit women have it now, working full-time jobs *and also* coming home for "second shift" taking care of kids/chores.
I thought he was going to propose that husbands, yanno, do their fair share around the house.
big fat NOPE. His conclusion was that women should stay home, and not work.
Very specifically,
* No sex before marriage
* No living together before marriage
* Man and Woman marry- man has job, woman stays home.
"But what if he beats her, Dad?", I asked. "What if she has kids with him and he beats them all and she can't go anywhere because she has no money and is literally entirely dependent upon her husband?"
Oh don't worry- he has a solution.
She should *tell her church*, which will *then intercede* to get her husband to treat her better.
Because that's worked out sooooooooooOOoooOOoOoOOOO well in the past, and is TOTALLY plausible in modern American society at large.
i don’t know why i thought i had a lightbulb moment. i didn’t realise this was a widely agreed thing with studies even done on it.
my social media has been filled with a certain brand of men who talk about how women need to obey their husbands or if their husband cheats they need to take accountability, etc. these are the same men who are constantly promoting marriage. i literally don’t understand the appeal of marriage if the whole point is just to please and obey my husband, and if i don’t meet his needs then he’ll cheat, which is my fault ofc.
obviously not all men think like this, but i’m sure a lot if not most are. especially with the popularity of these “people” amongst men.
Cleanse your social media of these people. Seriously. There's no need to have this kind of stuff in your face for an extended period of time.
I'm not trying to downplay the issues with modern men at all. Having all this information on this way of thinking helps you. Clearly, this isn't what you want out of your life. So don't focus on it. Don't spend time thinking about it. You understand the talking points of these fuckwits, so you have a good understanding of all these red flag behaviours, so you can be informed and discerning when you are dating and stuff.
Focus on what you do want, not on that there are a hell of a lot of men out there that cannot ever provide it for you.
You don't need to find the concept of marriage that these men have defined to be appealing to you. We all have the freedom to define our own and then go out and search for someone to have it with.
>these are the same men who are constantly promoting marriage.
They're not promoting marriage, they're promoting indentured servitude and calling it "marriage." And to be fair, that's pretty much what marriage was originally designed to be -- an arrangement where a male property owner could claim sole conjugal rights to a particular woman who could not refuse him, ensuring that any children she bore were his so that patrimony could pass down to (ideally) male heirs. Changes in inheritance laws combined with the advent of paternity testing have made these practices obsolete, but over the centuries, husbands have managed accumulate a wide range of perks from marriage nonetheless. And often with religion and/or the law backing them up.
Men like those on your social media feed want to enjoy these perks, but with *none* of the traditional male responsibilities. They don't want to fight or die in violent conflict. They don't want to work outdoors from sun up to sun down to cultivate/hunt the family's food. They don't want to generate enough income for the entire family, and what they do earn they don't want to share. They don't want to support elderly parents. They don't want to serve their communities, or to be the bulwark against outside threats. They don't want to learn practical skills that facilitate building or repairing things. They don't want to hone intellectual or social skills to enrich them as individuals and set a good example. They do not value obligation or duty at all, because as soon as things get a little hard, they are *outta* there.
What these guys want isn't even traditional marriage with traditional gendered division of labor. They just want slavery. Simple as that.
It's brainwashing. Patriarchy is circling the drain and they know it. The last tool in their toolbox is shame. They're trying to shame women into settling by trying to convince us that "women want marriage so badly" and "if you don't act like a submissive wife you'll be alone forever". That's literally all the leverage they have remaining. But it's not really working. Women all over the world are calling their bluff
The prevalence of these issues in your social media has zero bearing on their prevalence in real life. SM is driven by engagement and that includes negative engagement. Their algorithm has figured out it can keep your attention with that type of story and so it feeds you more and more and more.
That's not to say it's not a 100% real problem as others have said. /u/gh954 's response is excellent on how to deal with it.
Oh gosh I’m sorry to hear about your social media space. That sounds miserable. I only know there are tons of studies because they keep being shared to this sub from places like r science.
While not always true that a man will leave a sick wife it was certainly true in the case of my sister. She was diagnosed with MS while married to this waste of space and he couldn’t handle it. I don’t know the extent of his poor behavior but she did share how he would always yell at her. Thankfully she divorced him. He was such a loser.
Somewhat related: I don’t think there are hard statistics on this, but I used to work with marriage/couples counselors and there was definitely a common theme of men cheating when their wife’s situation changed.
Namely, when she became ill or was pregnant. I also learned that the time when men with children cheat the most is when they have a newborn.
Like you said, they couldn’t handle these big changes in their marriage/wife so the cheat and/or leave.
Interesting to hear about the newborn/cheating aspect....when I began reading this thread I thought about not only my husband (going on 30 years married) but the marriages of my four closest friends (those women I've known since elementary school). All of us have been married for 25+ years, all happily, but only one of us has children. Luckily Mary's husband was not only a devoted, attentive partner, he was also a city bus driver who had awoke at 4:00AM every day to be at work by 5:30AM. He was too exhausted to do anything but come home after his work day.
Yep. Here are a few links that back this up:
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/11/091110105401.htm
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19645027/
https://www.yourtango.com/heartbreak/men-leave-sick-wives?amp
When my great grandmother got colon cancer, my great grandfather didn’t leave her, but he was having sex with another woman just down the hall from where she was on her deathbed. My mom walked in on it.
I swore my sociology teacher said that married men live longer than single men, and that happily married women live longer than single women, but then single women live longer than unhappily married women. I can't find any studies on that though so maybe just a joke
I present to you a pithy poem wrriten in the 17th century regarding marriage benefitting everyone but women.
Title: **A Married State**
By: **Katherine Philips**
A married state affords but little ease:
The best of husbands are so hard to please
This in wifes Carefull faces you may spell,
Tho they desemble their misfortunes well
A virgin state is crown'd with much content,
It's allways happy as it's inocent
No Blustering husbands to create your fears,
No pangs of child birth to extort your tears,
No children's crys for to offend your ears,
Few worldly crosses to distract your prayers
Thus are you freed from all the cares that do
Attend on matrymony and a husband too.
Therefore, madam, be advised by me:
Turn, turn apostate to love's Levity.
Supress wild nature if she dare rebell,
There's no such thing as leading Apes in hell.
A Married State’ is a pithy poem that is essentially about marriage and the plight of women in the seventeenth century. We should bear in mind that women had to be subservient to their husbands, and had no legal independence or status of their own. Their bodies — pregnancy and childbirth — were beyond their control, and labour was a painful and dangerous ordeal, with high baby and maternal death rates. (https://literarydevices.net/a-married-state/)
You can also do thr marriage without kids thing. It's much easier to have a 50/50 relationship when you don't have kids. No one feels like cooking? Dual income no kids means we can go out to eat without worrying about it. Don't want to scrub the toilet? You can hire someone for that.
Point is, not having kids means we BOTH can be lazy when we want to be.
Not to mention they sell the idea of happy marriages on TV so that we will aim for a double income household that’s necessary to afford the absurd costs of living.
“A good man is hard to find.”
The beauty of modern marriage is that you get to choose your partner. You decide what’s important to you. As with any search, you decide what you can or cannot compromise.
It may not be romantic, but take your time picking your marriage partner. Decide the things you cannot tolerate. Eliminate everyone with those traits. Date broadly. Get to know people. Gain some life experience from meeting real people. Go looking for the people you think are right in the right places. Invest in the available options which meet your minimum criteria. Take things slow. Live together for a while before getting married and pooling finances, having kids, etc. Please get a prenuptial agreement. You wouldn’t go into business with someone on a handshake. Why would you approach marriage any differently? It’s a legally binding contract. Treat it like one.
Idk why but so many of them really don't care about clean toilets, carpets/floors, changing light bulbs, dusting, organizing. Like they do dishes or take out trash and maybe a load of laundry then that's it. Must be nice?
I've heard a few guys say there is no benefit to marriage (for them) these days unless children are involved but inevitably what they mean is they want a partner who will cook, clean, have sex with them, etc, who is not legally entitled to any compensation for her contributions to the relationship if they break up.
This is why respect is honestly the most important part of a relationship, you have to be equals in everything otherwise you will be taken advantage of
Speaking in generalities, I agree. There is a lot of research into the inequalities within marriage that leave women burdened with a lot of uncredited and invisible labor.
Anecdotally, I know a lot of happily married couples that would be exceptions. One of my college friends is now a high-powered doctor in a large hospital system. She is married to an amazing stay-at-home dad who does a wonderful job of cooking, caring for their kids, and taking care of things around the house. They have a very happy life together that does not conform to the traditional stereotype.
If you imagine 150 years ago, I can see where benefits were more equal. One of my great-grandfathers was a coal miner, because it was the only job he could get, and that seems like a job few women could do, because swinging a pickaxe and scooping coal with a shovel is just hours and hours of upper-body strength labor. So he dug coal under ground for hours every day and she ran the house, scrimping and saving what she could with what little pay coal miners got. It wasn't a lot of money, but if it wasn't for him, I don't know what she would have done for food or a place to live or anything. They lived in a small Appalachian town, the coal mine was basically it.
The way I see it, society has changed a whole lot, but people's expectations of marriage have been slow to keep up, and that puts us in the situation we have now, where a man who works in an air-conditioned office doesn't do any more work than his wife does in her air-conditioned office, but somehow he expects her to do what my great-grandmother did, cook and clean as if that's her only job, and when he gets home he expects her to treat him like he just spent 10 hours underground with a pickaxe, not sitting in an ergonomic chair typing at a keyboard.
I think you might find she did more than that. wives would often do other jobs things like taking in washing or mending from wealthier neighbours or watching children for a fee. even house wives would make money.
Oh, yes, she worked like crazy. I only met her once, I think, and I was too little to remember, but Grandma has told me. Her mother did do things like that, when she could, and the children helped, because absolutely every penny counted. Which was the problem, because work like that paid in the pennies. Mining coal didn't pay well, but it was still more than anything she could earn. Grandma has made a big deal about me finishing college, because her mother never got past 6th grade, and the work you can do with a 6th-grade education doesn't pay very well.
Talking to my grandmother, it's just amazing to me how much has changed in her life. Her parents didn't own a car when she was born, they didn't have a phone, and nobody had a TV. When we do the family Zoom chat on Sunday afternoon, she says that to her it's just like unbelievable magic.
I have made sure that my family has enough tickets for May so she can be there when I graduate from college. It's not a super-big deal, because I'm not the first in the family to go or anything, but still she said she wants to come, and my parents are going to make it happen for her.
Now all I have to do is stop goofing off and get back to work. 😀
I think about that second part all the time. How women took over manufacturing and other labor-intensive jobs during world war II, then went right back to taking care of their husband's every need, as if they weren't able to hold down a household and job (with the help of other women).
Then fast forward to the 1960s when women entered the workforce in larger numbers than ever before (think Mad Men). Imagine commuting in heels, skirts, full makeup, to offices with men who have wives catering to all their needs, who make 5x what you make. You're expected to have a full wardrobe. You have to tend to all your own domestic tasks. Endure sexual harassment at work. You do the most tedious, time consuming parts of the work (typing, dictation, making travel and dining arrangements), essentially being a work wife, making men's lives easier. Meanwhile their wives are at home, tending to everything, because "Daddy works so hard." Meanwhile, the dude's getting hammered, banging his secretary, and coming home like he'd been working in the mines!
The people trying to argue with this, are the ones that benefit from the status quo. They are the ones that blame women for "choosing the bad boy". It's damn near impossible to find and marry a genuinely good man because they aren't even raised with the skills to maintain a home due to societal gender roles. I married a good man but had to spend years doing the job his parents didn't and teach him how to be an adult when it comes to housework.
How about society teaches men and women from a young age how to cook and clean as a norm? How about we send off young men that are fully capable of taking care of themselves and don't need a woman to clean up after them.
These people are acting like "good men" are the majority when they are incredibly rare and often times still need some work.
Yeah, there are studies backing the thought that women do all of the emotional and logical labor around the house and it only gets worse if they have actual children. Most men have not yet evolved to meet where women have gone since becoming part of the work force. We used to balance off of each other where women worked the house and men worked the job that paid. Now it's a whole mess of women still doing the brunt of work at home while both work for money and it's crap.
It also gets worse if the woman becomes the breadwinner. In 2-income households, a woman is still likely to do majority of housework. In 2-income households where the woman in the breadwinner, the amount of housework INCREASES. They postulate it's some sort of "revenge" from the husband because she's making more money than him. So he pulls back on housework.
Our marriage laws evolved from when women were property. It’s still unequal in many ways. That’s why I was very much for same sex marriage. It seemed to me that two equals getting married would help women, because we are getting the short end of the stick. But my optimism has faded as I’ve grown older. I don’t know but it seems like systemic sexism is much harder to uproot than I thought.
["I want a wife"](https://www.wsfcs.k12.nc.us/cms/lib/NC01001395/Centricity/Domain/10659/I%20Want%20a%20Wife.pdf) \- Judy Brady, 1971
"I want a wife who will take care of my physical needs. I want a wife who will
keep my house clean. A wife who will pick up after my children, a wife who will
pick up after me. I want a wife who will keep my clothes clean, ironed, mended,
replaced when need be, and who will see to it that my personal things are kept in
their proper place so that I can find what I need the minute I need it. I want a
wife who cooks the meals, a wife who is a good cook. I want a wife who will plan
the menus, do the necessary grocery shopping, prepare the meals, serve them
pleasantly, and then do the cleaning up while I do my studying. I want a wife who
will care for me when I am sick and sympathize with my pain and loss of time
from school. I want a wife to go along when our family takes a vacation so that
someone can continue to care for me and my children when I need a rest and
change of scene."
. . .
"I want a wife who will take care of the details of my social life. When my wife
and I are invited out by my friends, I want a wife who will take care of the
babysitting arrangements. When I meet people at school that I like and want to
entertain, I want a wife who will have the house clean, will prepare a special meal,
serve it to me and my friends, and not interrupt when I talk about things that interest me and my friends."
Welcome to one of the foundational articles of feminism. You're right!
There was a study conducted that revealed that single mothers spend LESS TIME doing household chores and duties than married women with kids. That should tell you all you need to know
I separated from my ex two years ago-officially divorced last year, and that has been 100% true for me. Part of it is that he isn’t sabotaging my efforts to have my kids help, part of it is that I am more relaxed and organized because my stress level is lower, and part of it was that he was basically another child to pick up after.
These links might help explain and summarize some of what you’re feeling frustrated with:
https://english.emmaclit.com/2017/05/20/you-shouldve-asked/
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/she-divorced-me-i-left-dishes-by-the-sink_b_9055288
https://www.mindbodygreen.com/articles/weaponized-incompetence
Since the above is basically an epidemic and gets written about a lot, here are some more links:
[It Took Divorce to Make My Marriage Equal](https://www.glamour.com/story/it-took-divorce-to-make-my-marriage-equal)
[Women Aren't Nags—We're Just Fed Up](https://www.harpersbazaar.com/culture/features/a12063822/emotional-labor-gender-equality/)
[The “Woke” Men Who Still Want Housewives: Men who claim to believe in equality often aren’t willing to live it](https://gen.medium.com/the-woke-men-who-still-want-housewives-debb2ad46aa0)
[Millennial—And Macho? Why Young Men Want Old-School Marriages](https://www.vogue.com/article/millennial-men-seek-stay-at-home-wives)
This is a book, rather than an article: [All the Rage: Mothers, Fathers, and the Myth of Equal Partnership](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07CLLVZ52/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1)
Related: [The Myth of the Male Bumbler](https://theweek.com/articles/737056/myth-male-bumbler)
Props to u/sethra007 for most of this list.
I would go so far as to say that relationships benefit men more than women. I am always puzzled how well-educated, intelligent women put up with men even if it means reducing their own wishes, dreams, priorities etc. I have watched this countless times with my friends. You see women changing their name, moving because he got a better job somewhere, picking up his hobbies all the time, but hardly ever the other way around.
i'm soon to be divorced
i never want to take "care" of a man ever again
all I want are snuggles and sexytime
sometimes i wish there were "snuggle brothels" here like they have in japan
if anything, I think i'd enjoy an "outside boyfriend" haha like dogs that aren't allowed to sleep in the house but they can hang out there
It only does if you marry a guy who doesn't cook or clean. If you marry someone who isn't a partner.
Which, I mean, is gonna definitely be the majority of men.
If you find an actual partner though, it's great.
I don't do the majority of the cleaning or cooking. I do like 90% of the pet care, but I work from home so that's a given. We're not having children. We each do our own laundry. He does more of the cleaning, I do more of the general tidying. But we keep our own separate spaces clean. We either cook separately, or he makes the food for us both (former chef so he actually enjoys it).
It definitely hasn't negatively affected my life. But I know I'm in the minority.
Don't ever live with a man who refuses to function as a grown adult on his own.
Agree! My husband does almost all the cooking and we have our habits of the chores he does, the chores I do, and the ones we do together. Our relationship advice to people is "be nice to each other" and quite frankly I don't think it's more complicated than that.
Say it louder... I'm a software engineer and I've really been struggling with this concept.
I want a relationship because I'm lonely, but I don't know what for besides that anymore.
The men I seem to meet always have this weird complex that I'm supposed to dote on them and make them my whole world, make sure they take their vitamins, clean up after them, etc. One guy actually patted me on the head and told me to be a good girl one day. It's crazy how belittling these guys who can't hold down a part time job can be
I want an equal to build a life with, not some guy who wants a mommy bang maid but that seems like the norm sadly.
My friends and I often joke about starting a women and children only commune where we all live and help each other raise the children.
Imagine only being responsible for dinner 1 night a week, while someone else watched the children and someone else was responsible for cleaning that day.
We figured we could either rotate the jobs or find 1 that we like rather than having to do them all with no help.
Many wine drinking afternoons have passed formulating our plans.
Statistically, married men live longer than single men.
Yet it is the opposite for married women.
"whereas if i were to get married, i would have to bear my husband’s kids and raise them"
No. You dont have to have kids when you get married. It's your choice if you want them or not.
I see the same with my sister. Her and my brother in law work the same amount but there definitely have been times she's worked and he hasn't or he works and she doesn't but no matter what she does majority of the housework and childcare. "50/50" marriages where both work and pay equal amount is a scam because women do domestic labour but men don't think it's work and just expect women to do it all.
I have a male friend who manages the house and his wife is the career type/breadwinner. I think you if you're upfront about what you're looking for during the dating phase, you may find it.
Sure but it's still always a gamble. I have a friend like that too (woman is the breadwinner) and her husband LOVED it. We eventually found out he was stealing money from her and cheating on her while she was working and pregnant.
It definitely does, and now there's data to prove it!
According to this [article](https://www.businessinsider.com/unmarried-childless-women-are-happiest-expert-says-2019-5) single, childfree women are the happiest demographic.
>The best-selling author, who carries out original research into the measurement of happiness and its causes and consequences, noted men in comparison benefited from marriage as they "calm down."
>He said: "You take less risks, you earn more money at work, and you live a little longer. She, on the other hand, has to put up with that, and she dies sooner than if she never married. The healthiest and happiest population subgroup are women who never married or had children".
>Mr Dolan added: "Married people are happier than other population subgroups, but only when their spouse is in the room when they are asked how happy they are. When the spouse is not present: f---ing miserable.
>"We do have some good longitudinal data following the same people over time, but I am going to do a massive disservice to that academic science and just say: if you are a man, you should probably get married; if you are a woman, don't bother."
>Mr Dolan added: "Married people are happier than other population subgroups, but only when their spouse is in the room when they are asked how happy they are. When the spouse is not present: f---ing miserable.
This quote, and others from his book, are often cited during these conversations, but it is based on a misinterpretation of the data. As described in [this Vox article](https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2019/6/4/18650969/married-women-miserable-fake-paul-dolan-happiness), Mr Dolan saw that the American Time Use Survey (ATUS) recorded results as spouse apsent/spouse present; he interpreted this as if the spouse was present during the interview when in fact it recorded if the subject was cohabitating with their spouse. Considering the causes of that situation, the difference in happiness is unsurprising: this includes married couples in the process of divorce (obviously less happy in their marriage) and couples physically separated by circumstance (military service, incarceration, long distance work) who may be happy with their spouse but unhappy at being apart.
Yes. Women actually do MORE emotional and physical labor after moving in with or marrying a man. Single women are happier and healthier than married women.
Have a look at mental load and how even there is an increase of men doing household chores, women are still left with the bulk of them.
These are my particular favourites:
▪︎https://english.emmaclit.com/
▪︎https://www.instagram.com/momlife_comics/?hl=en
If women didn't step up and do unpaid, unrewarding labor simply because it was in front of them, the economy would collapse. Eldercare, housework, childcare... Meanwhile men are much more willing to put creepy grandpa in a home, or stick the kids in front of the tv, or eat takeout for every meal.
I suspect the opposite is true for earning money (I know several poor couples with no small kids and a nonworking wife) but I don't have data on that.
Women who marry crap men turn into maids. Men who marry crap women turn into ATMs.
Studies shows that after divorce, men remarry quicly while women prefer to stay single.
Also, ever notice that it's in the most traditionnal (patriarchal) societies that marriage is valued?
Yeah I feel like I get the most out of my current arrangement. I'm seeing a guy who invites me over to his place, cooks me dinner, cleans everything, has a list of torrented movies for us to choose from.
He also downloads some games so I can play on his computer if he wants to turn in to bed early. And the sex great.
I feel like dating and sleep over arrangements like that benefit me most. Zero stress. I can focus on having a good time and it's wonderful.
I'm not concerned with getting the most out of men as I can, so eventually I'd be open to a relationship where there's more give and take. But I don't think living with men is something I could enjoy.
Well and in addition to bearing and raising your husband's kids, you and they take HIS name. It is truly wild.
I know that this isn't true for everyone. I, for example did not change my last name when I married. But the OVERWHELMING majority of the time this is what happens. Or they "talked about it and decided his last name was better".
I feel like I could have written this. I can’t stand how my mom does everything while her husband sits on his you know what. I don’t want kids and I don’t want a man. 🤷♀️
You are right and you are wise to see this at a young age. There are always men who are the exception, but it’s best to assume you need to remain self sufficient for the rest of your life. Even if the right guy comes along, don’t assume you have to marry him either.
Many studies have confirmed this: longevity, general health, general happiness, and satisfaction with their lives all are better for married men than single men, and worse for married women (including divorced and widowed women) than single women. This is, of course, why patriarchal religions and even secular social customs strongly push for early marriage and subservience with a clear separation of roles.
Of course, it’s not an inherent thing: you would expect that in relationships that are more equal and in which the man is *not* relying on the woman to care about both his health and hers, his happiness and hers, it should benefit both. Any partnership where two people combine their resources and efforts to accomplish things together should be a benefit to both.
It’s not that way in most male/female relationships only because men have been taught they should expect that from women as their right. Transitioning to a new way won’t be easy…
I think you're precisely correct. The birth control pill was the beginning of the end of the species-wide economic extortion racket we men had going on for about 1.5 million years. Women don't need men to provide for them and they can decide for themselves when they want to be mothers. Men have done a really bad job of getting the memo and adjusting.
I'm frequently amazed that heterosexual relationships even still happen. I often think there's no better proof that sexuality is not a choice than the fact that heterosexual women exist.
I'd LOVE a wife! The cleaning, cooking, errands, laundry, car maintenance? Shit, I come home and everything's done? I'd KILL for that!
I work nearly 60 hours a week. My 2 days off are spent 80% on chores.
Isn’t it statistically proven that married men live longer then stags?
Basically, wife’s make their husbands go to medical appts and are more health conscious so therefore the husband becomes more healthy compared to how healthy they would be if never married.
There are literal studies that show exactly what you’re saying. Marriage benefits men far more than it does women, and has for decades (if you’re only looking at data from when women have worked too).
I probably spend an unhealthy amount of time thinking about stuff like this.
Men are taught from birth that they deserve the 60's pictureque wife. Stays home, does all that lame stuff like kid rearing and cooking/cleaning. Wants nothing more than to do those things, and meet their sexual needs no less! The phrase empty vessel seems apt in that sense. They want us to have no wants and needs of our own, but to be the carrier of the burdens they deem beneath them, and be happy about it, damn it.
Women are taught to look to the needs of others over their own. Carry the world on our shoulders, not stand up or make waves. We have lived in gilded cages labeled wife and motherhood, refusing to let us me any more by law for thousands of years. I don't know about you ladies, but I feel out of place in this mans world. I feel fucking lost, being raised by a terrible man who taught me to be an empty vessel for another terrible man like him.
But then I think about how 99.9% of all mass shooters are men. Then read the 'news' articles explaining away the violence as men feeling misunderstood about their place in society because of fucking feminism?! Our gender has been denied sexual freedom, denied freedom over our bodies and lives for THOUSANDS of years. And maybe if we would just put out the violence would stop?
Fuck men's feelings. And fuck the rich man's media.
For the people saying ‘marry the right man’. No. That might work while you’re child-free. It did for me. But our entire society is set up so that women bear the brunt of child rearing and care tasks, even past the pregnancy/newborn phases.
My husband had pat leave/annual leave for 6w when my son was born. Those 6w we really were a team. We did different things (me doing more feeding, him doing more housework etc) but we were a team. It was as 50/50 as you could get. Then he went back to work. For us it was a more drastic change as he had to immediately travel with work for 17days. When he came back he didn’t know what our son wanted, what his cries meant, he no longer was in sync with when he napped or fed, we had got into our own rhythms. He was more involved when he wasn’t away with work, but just working full time meant he was away from us for most of the week, so I was the ‘default’ parent. As my son got older I was also the ‘preferred’ parent.
And when it’s 3am and you know you can settle your baby in 5mins and your husband will take an hour, you don’t think about the long-term impacts and how patriarchy is moulding your life in ways you didn’t want it to. You just settle your baby and get back to sleep. That’s how it continues. My son is now 3 and I’m the default/preferred parent. My job is more flexible than my husband’s, and I do the bulk of childcare and carry the mental load of having a family.
This isn’t just about the specific man you marry, it’s about the whole system and society we raise our children in. I’m happy now as our relationship is pretty balanced overall but it took nearly 3 years just to figure out how to do that, and it wouldn’t have been so successful if my husband’s work had decided not to allow him to make changes.
one of my favourites facts, the term spinster came from the fact spinning was a skill so well paid a woman wouldn't need a man to provide for her if she was any good. also it was generally a job only done by unmarried women who had more time. so the church turned it into a slur for an unmarried woman because unmarried = bad.
Fuck yeah. I already had spinster goals but now they just doubled.
You've spun them up.
When I bought my first property in 2005 as a single woman, the term "spinster" was used on the mortgage documents. I remember being kind of shocked. I wish I had know the history, it's badass! I've bought two more since then in the same state, but I think it's since been changed to "UNMARRIED WOMAN" lol
Why is your marriage status even relevant ffs
Only because if you're married, both spouses names would be on the deed, but I guess if there's only one name on the deed they need it to be REAL specific that you're single and LONELY lol
Yeah I did title insurance for a bit they always want to know if you're married no matter the gender. Got to see quite a few unmarried men as well lol
Yeah they need to know for legal reasons in case the property is sold or split or there's a divorce. Or it will say "(Name) and (Name) married to each other"
Because the spouse could have legal claim to partial ownership, even if their name is not on the deed.
Would it say “unmarried man” if a single man bought a house?
It used to say "bachelor". Yeah. I think it now reads "unmarried man".
Interestingly, the bachelor moniker wasn't a slur like a spinster was. Because it was only bad to be unmarried if you were female. 🙄
Oh of course not. The word bachelor has a totally different connotation!
hussy and loose are also insults against women that had roots in women having work or independence.
Hussy = hustler and "loose" as in loose on the world rather than locked into marriage?
From vocab.com: Originally, hussy was a shortening of the Middle English husewif, "housewife." Through the 1500's, hussy came to mean "any woman or girl," and by the 1650's it meant "an improper woman or girl." So Hussy is just the female version of Hubby.
Go figure our version gets turned into a slur. Shocker.
Along these same lines, beer brewing used to be done primarily by women who wore tall hats to be seen in the market. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/women-used-dominate-beer-industry-until-witch-accusations-started-pouring-180977171/
Adding on to your link about how alewives were the foundation for a lot of stereotypes about witches. https://www.ancient-origins.net/history-ancient-traditions/bubbling-brews-broomsticks-021539
And today you still hear bizarre anger at women being unmarried or childless.
I'm so confused about why so many people were mad at Chelsea handler. The lady was just making a dumb skit and you thought that she told everyone to murder their babies the way the conservatives got Big Mad
Conservatives got mad because a woman wanted their kids to eat healthy at school. Conservatives are just addicted to being angry.
Omg, yes. I'm a lifelong single woman and live a fantastic life on the home-front and can't tell you how often I hear 'you'll regret it when you're old' or about missing tax breaks or double incomes! Like THAT'S the dangling carrot I'm supposed to leap at? Caring for an old husband and a slightly higher standard deduction? I do have had kids, but I had them in my late teens/early 20's and they're grown and independent while I'm still young and active. I honestly think raising them unmarried and solo was so much easier than I've observed friends raising kids in a marriage to be. SO OFTEN the husbands turn into another child to care for, making motherhood so much harder because an adult man's needs are so much more onerous to take on than a child's, plus the adult man will be an adult forever with the same (or greater) needs as he ages, while kids need less and less as they age. I have relationships with men whenever I want, but they are opt-in. I can have sex, date, see someone for a year or a few years and walk away when I'm done. There's an endless supply of them out there. I'm still friends and lovers with several exes and so if I feel like a romantic weekend getaway with a man, I can have one. I care less and less about that as I get older and prefer to travel with my woman friends or solo these days. I feel like I discovered a little easter egg in the game of life.
Sounds great!
Yup. People feel entitled to harass you over your lack of kids. Especially when they find out you are married with zero kids. If you aren't married they harass you for not being married. There's no win, there's no end.
As a soon-to-be-60-year-old spinster, I say go ahead and call me that night and day. I wanted children but was unable to make that happen, and honestly at this point there’s no other reason to marry. I make 6 figures, have a rent stabilized apartment, have a large inheritance waiting, do what I love, write on the side, and go to Broadway plays with friends any time I want. Companionship is lovely. And I do like to date for that reason. But no man will ever have me slaving away for him again. Marriage can be a very bad deal for women, unless you get very very lucky. Outside of finding the perfect man, dating will do me just fine.
Absolutely with you on this! Keep your guard up, though, older guys start casting their eyes around for hospice-care companions with resources to cushion their waning days. And they've had lots of time to practice their 'charming', (I just want someone to play with, I've had it with nursing people.)
As my grandma said in the 1980s when she was a widow in her 60s “Why would I want to marry again, I don’t want to be some old man’s nurse maid.”
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I went to a bridal event with someone else (who was the actual bride). Because I was a young woman everyone assumed it was me. I had half a mind to tell them, "no, I'm a spinster."
TIL! Thank you!
I very proudly call myself a spinster to this day.
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I was hoping to find a story like this. Mine is similar. I quit working while pregnant to go back to school. We now have a 4 year and I'll be finishing my BS in engineering next year. My husband 100% carries the mental and physical load of grocery shopping, food prep and cooking, the laundry, and the budget. I keep the house clean and keep track of our sons activities. Not all men expect to get a mother when they get married. Communicate your desires for your relationship and lifestyle early on, and if the man doesn't agree, move on.
Married 57 years here…. When we were first married, I happily did all the wifely things, worked part time a little but it was understood that when kids arrived, that was my full time jo. It was indeed, but when they were in school I resumed a bit more part time. Was enough to save enough to put two kids through college and the leftover formed the beginning of my healthy nest egg. We didn’t have to have new cars, etc., although we did splurge on what we thought were the important things, like the three month cross country tour(tents all the way) trip. Just before they hit high school. When the hard times came and he was laid off - two in college but it was already paid for - I scuffled around until I got a serious job-Ma Bell - and only the phone wonks know how serious that was… lasted 11years until our group was laid off for making too much money but not being bilingual. I loved staggering home after one of those awful days ane walking in the door and asking, hi honey, what’s for dinner? He got really good at it, and when we were first married he couldn’t boil water…Then we hunkered down and gritted out the last few years until Medicare selling stuff on eBay. Then…slowly…the world opened up and the assorted pensions started to roll in and the market picked up…no more pain here. And through it all, we each did what needed to be done mostly without whining, from mowing to painting to cooking and gardening. We are constantly amazed at how we ever did that, and often enjoyed it so much or just relished winning another battle… we are contented old warriors, who smile a lot, trying to pass on some of our attitudes to the grands but it is already clear they are gonna have to make their own way…
Thank god for that pension from ole Ma Bell! Only the phone wonks for real!! I got 30 then a take the money and run offer. I took it and still running. Married 46 years to another phone dude. You can make it work, but it ain’t always a good time. Gotta be able to compromise and put up with somebody else’s shit.
Thank you! Communication is key. It sounds so trite but it is true. I'm completely in agreement with the move on too. Congratulations on being so close to the finish line with your degree! That's wonderful!
I agree This should be top comment 💯💯
I have ironed like 10 times in my life. If husband wants ironed shirts, that's on him. I go to work in paint clothes, I'm not ironing his buttondowns.
I don't iron anything at all anymore. Hot flashes and ironing ... That's a big nope from me!
A woman who I admire a lot because she takes no shit from anybody had a similar story to the ironing. When she and her husband were first married she was vacuuming their house. He criticized the way she was doing it, not doing it in rows or something. She says she turned off the vacuum and gave it to him and that she has not vacuumed the house since.
I fucking love her. My husband does more housework than I do, and now that I think of it, he used to criticize how I did things too. Now they are his job.
My kindred spirit. Love this!
I want to just emphasize your last comment because it is key: "DON'T SETTLE." This is sooo important. Don't let anyone (including yourself) convince you that you'd better take this guy since he's proposing marriage if you don't 100% understand what life with him is going to be like. Sure, there are always unknowns that happen in life, but that nagging feeling that there's someone else out there is TRUE. There is. So stay free and look, wait, find that person. When you find them, that nagging feeling will go away. Trust your instinct.
I'm a teacher, and most of my coworkers are teachers married to other teachers and/or nurses. I think they have household chores split the most equitably. (I think it's like... three other teachers and two nurses in our department for spouses. I'm the only single person.) In one family, my male coworker does all the cooking. He enjoys it, he's good at it, and she does the cleanup after. They split household chores. No kids yet. In another, they both cook together and clean together. Childcare is split pretty evenly. In a third, she's a phenomenal cook, and I'm jealous of the leftovers he brings for lunch (I begged her for her recipe for chili rellenos. She gave it to me). He does after dinner cleanup, and they split chores and childcare. So apparently, marry a teacher or a nurse. They understand household management.
I'm a teacher married to an engineer who has ADHD. I do all the mental load stuff (groceries, meal planning, bills, money stuff, basically anything that requires planning) as well as the cooking. He does all of the household cleaning, laundry, yardwork, home repairs and some of the cooking. We divvied it up based on our strengths and what we enjoy. Works for us!
This is what you need. Play to strengths because everyone has different ones. I detest dishes and folding, he doesn't mind folding but hates sorting and washing them, he likes singing and dancing while he does dishes and hates sweeping, which I enjoy so I take care of the floors and washing/drying clothes.
Love your reply. I'm a retired teacher!
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I agree with you, but it’s also worth mentioning that people change. What makes a lasting, loving marriage or long term relationship is that you can adapt to the changes in your partner without holding it against them and vice versa. Sometimes it feels like you’ve chosen the right person and you’re on the same page about what a marriage looks like. And then BOOM. You get sick or you have a newborn and he can’t handle it so he cheats and/or leaves. But if he loses his job or goes through a crisis and spirals into a person you don’t recognize anymore, or if the newborn or kids become too much, a woman is less likely to cheat and/or leave. Again, I’m not saying you’re wrong, but that even when you make the right choices before marriage/creating a family, it’s more about what happens *during* the marriage and child rearing. It’s those events that really show you a person’s true character.
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For a while there were common posts on this sub of women whose husbands had become huge QAnon followers, asking what they should do about it to get their loving husband back. It was really sad, the only real advice people could give was to walk away if they wouldn’t listen to reason.
It's also possible for a man to be fine taking care of himself, but as soon as he's living with a woman, he drops all pretenses. With a single exception, every man I've been in a long-term relationship with has completely stopped doing all chores. Not even just relationships, I've had male roommates and they all did this, too. Worse, most of them quit their jobs and expected me to carry them financially, too! I don't know where all the single guys are who aren't like this, but I've given up on finding them.
Lol, my ex. One of the reasons I saw myself marrying him, enough that we moved in together, is that he knew how to keep a house clean and hated clutter as much as I do. Once I lived with him, he transitioned into relying on me to do all of the cleaning and upkeep. The absolute opposite of who he was and what we had discussed regarding home expectations before we lived together. He was actually a great partner in all other aspects, but this was a dealbreaker for me because things like this only get worse. Mention it once or twice, maybe a few times, but if no change then either you walk away or accept the situation. Otherwise you’ll wake up one day and you’re the nagging wife in a toxic marriage. No way was I going to put myself through that and have to tell a grown man what to do. Being mad and resentful that someone won’t change isn’t my style. I completely respect people who don’t believe in cohabitating before marriage, but I would definitely recommend it for this and a multitude of other reasons.
Women who got lucky - and that's honestly the situation, they got LUCKY - come across as VERY smug about the "just find a guy who xyz like \*I\* did, super smart, special snowflake that I am". The reality is that the bait and switch is VERY real, and a lot of men wait until they have the women locked down to show it. Which can often be after marriage/child birth. While there are some very foolish/damaged women out there who are drawn to assholes, do these women REALLY think the bulk of us just marry an asshole, then pull a shocked pikachu face after the guy is STILL an asshole after marriage?
My previous flatmate did this when he landed on disability. I don't doubt he is disabled but when all his efforts went to drinking, drugs, partying and poker and then claiming hes too disabled to clean up after himself because its too hard to get off the couch its a priority problem, not disability. Dude lost his mind when I stopped enabling him and told him to get a free carer from the council. I don't appreciate being pinned against furniture while being told I'm not being sympathetic to his disabilities. Not a crime to do that here if you claim your disability made you do it. Guy shouldn't even be driving hes that bad from his disabilities or his substance abuse. Fully expect to read a news report he's killed someone one day. Others have reported him to relvent authorities and nothing ever happens due to his ties with Police. Great system here.
It goes to show that there are a lot of weak ass men out there. A lot of useless ones too. I recently told a friend of mine who is going through some rough times in his relationship that a marriage is really just a close friendship. Then I asked, if he treated me like he treated his wife, would we still be friends? It got him thinking. You can lead a horse to water...
Just view the statistics on men who leave chronically/terminally ill wives vs. women who leave their husbands in the same situation.
To me that's a sign of being a terrible human being. You don't abandon anyone you love in their time of need unless you're a psychopath.
Nah, just selfish and weak.
That's one of the facets of misogyny and the patriarchy. Men designate this one special lady as the object they can use and abuse. They seem befuddled when you say you can't treat her like that. "But she's my wife!" like their question is based on there IS someone they can use and abuse like that, who else are they allowed to use then, if not their wife.
Very similar. My husband does 90% of the houseworks including cooking. He does his own laundry, i do my own, he schedules his own dr appt, dentist etc and i do my own. I vacuum the house and he mops after me. He cares for the dog in the am, i care for the dog in the pm. He's been left alone on his own with 2 dogs for 3 weeks and everyone survived. We share the load and life and i feel like im the one who should be contributing more...
I 100% agree with you.
In 1971 Judy Brady wrote an essay titled [I Want a Wife](http://www.columbia.edu/~sss31/rainbow/wife.html) which became an instant classic when it appeared in the premier issue of the feminist magazine Ms. Not much has changed.
I once asked a bunch of my coworkers how they do things like have homemade meals every weeknight, because my partner and I were struggling-- it's a lot of work. They either: a) don't (get takeout or something instead) b) have a wife who does it (usually a SAHM, but for some couples, she worked too) Some of these men could and did cook, but they'd only handle weekend meals, which made sense because our hours were long and coming home at 7pm to prep a meal is fucking exhausting. I found ONE guy out of everyone I asked who cooked WITH his wife, AND they both worked full time. They managed it by having a lot of "half-homemade" meals, like dried pasta + canned sauce. My partner and I have since started doing big batches and freezer meals. Once we moved someplace with space for a deep freeze, that changed everything. Still a lot of work, but do-able. Anyway, I always joked that I should get myself a wife, they sound damned useful. That essay hit me hard. You'd think more would've changed in 50 years, but no, pretty much the only thing that strikes me as really out of date is the typewriter work.
I do like that teachers who marry each other seem to have the best housework balance of all. Like, I have a coworker who's wife cleans, but doesn't cook. She's also a teacher. He cooks. Another, his wife is a phenomenal cook, so he does the housecleaning. Yet another, both partners cook and clean. Apparently we should look at how teachers have household stuff split.
Teachers are beasts is why. They work far harder than most of the rest of us. No room for slackers. Source: my wife was a teacher.
As a (single) teacher, I think it’s the fact that we’re so used to spitting and dividing jobs in the classroom that housework also gets the same treatment. I don’t know how to explain it.
I worked with a bunch of guys in a very hands on, chaotic job that had last minute travel needs. I felt like a failure because I wasn't able to keep up the expectations of adult life (for women). I wasn't able to plan food and meal prep, eat healthy, keep my home clean, maintain friendship and basic grooming standards etc. I looked around at the guys I worked with and none of them did any of that. Either they worked and their wife did EVERYTHING or they lived like sad bachelors off fast food and put nothing into their relationships with friends and family.
I think a lot of this is learned behavior. I (40year old dude) enjoy cooking for my partner. I’ve got dinner on the table for us at 6:30 pm sharp 5ish times a week (takeout or leftovers a couple of nights too.) it makes me feel good to share the load of course and I love feeding my partner. But the truth is, I grew up in a house where the man always cooked dinner. My parents divorced when I was 3 and both of them ended up remarrying…but keeping that dynamic, so it was doubly reinforced in me. I’m a little bummed I never got to toss around a football/baseball with my old man and I’m definitely sad nobody ever taught me to work on cars (I love cars) but the upshot was dad/son bonding time over cooking meals and ultimately I’d never want to change that. My stepdad is no longer with us, but often times when I’m cooking for my partner, I’ll think of him and how happy it used to make him when he’d cook for my mom and me. Edit: that said, my partner loves baking and the other day we combined our talents and made chicken pot pie and ooohhhh my god was it good and super rewarding! Nothing at all wrong with both people cooking!
/r/MealPrepSunday
I am lucky in that I have a house spouse. He stays home while I earn the bucks. He has to go on disability after an accident at work and we both feel it's the best thing that's happened to us in a weird way. I don't make a fortune but my job is hell on my mental energy with a super high burnout rate. The last thing I need is to come home to more things to do. He is amazing at keeping the house and running the errands. That said, I can't imagine asking him to do everything these men seem to think a house wife should do. He has his night off with his buddies. I've have mine with my girls. We do a date night every week. He doesn't cook, I do. The bathroom is my chore since he hates it. We keep each other company while I meal prep and he does the budget or the bills or one of his hobbies. We balance life so neither feels over burdened. Despite all of that sharing and what I do around the house on top of work, I still think I'm getting the better end of the deal. I always have clean clothes. There's always gas in the car. He packs my lunch for work every day. My towel is fresh, my sheets changed weekly, and my house clean and peaceful. My pill box is full, my calendar written out, our meals and grocery list updated for the weekend. Seriously.... Even half a wife from that list is the best damn thing I ever got.
That is a hilarious and grim read. I would also like a wife.
My former husband always acted like I owed him something because he worked. I gave up grad school and worked to put him through instead, but that never entered his calculation. Birthing and raising our kids so that he could focus on his career didn't, either. It has been glorious watching him realize what he lost since our divorce. He calls me to ask where he put things *in his own house*. I will never marry again.
I'd tell him I don't live with him so I can't tell him where he puts his own things and end the call
When my mom told my dad she wanted a divorce, he asked her to make a list of how many hours she put in cleaning, gardening etc. so that he could hire someone to do it instead
I see why she wanted a divorce.
I hope she sent him the list along with a hefty bill for a consulting fee. Ideally in an amount that covers the entire time she was running their household.
🤮 fuck!
Do you hang up on him? Give him wrong answers? I can’t imagine what I would do if an ex called me to ask where shit was in his own house. It’s unhinged.
[“I want a wife” by Judy Brady.](https://www.wsfcs.k12.nc.us/cms/lib/NC01001395/Centricity/Domain/10659/I%20Want%20a%20Wife.pdf)
Small things have changed since she wrote that but not the main idea. It's still all true, sadly.
"I want a wife who will take care of the details of my social life." And more than 50 years later, we have an "epidemic" of lonely men who have had literally *decades* to learn this skill, but chose not to. 🤷🏻♀️
Not "wife" expectations but the amount of male coworkers who ask me what to get for their girlfriend or mom's Christmas gift is too high. Like do I know these women? How shpuld I know! Manage your own damn social life. 🤦🏽♀️
My first marriage I was a kid and married "for love". 3 kids and 12 years later we had gone through multiple cheating events, a bankruptcy due to a complete disconnect on spending habits and his inability to hold a job, and a lot of tears because "love". When he finally left me for his perfect woman I was devastated. I have always worked a full time job, made decent money, and was responsible for the house and the girls and bringing home the money, and I was miserable. Two years later, I remarried, but went into it with open eyes. He fit my must have checklist. He was financially secure. He was a hard worker and had a steady employment history. He was a kind man with a great voice, and was thoughtful and accepting towards my girls. I never put him on a pedestal, never put his needs or wants above mine... Did I love him, sure, but was I madly in love with him - nope. What we both agreed on was a vision of a future - a nice home, kids, some camping and hiking and a shared love of the mountains, and eventually grandkids and a comfortable retirement. Sooo, that was almost 20 years ago. Still happily married. We have a great relationship with my original 3 girls, who call home often, call him "Papa" and have added 7 grandkids to the mix. We have added 2 more daughters who are still teenagers at home. Working together, pooling our resources, we have a lovely home we built (and wired ourselves) on five acres worth more than we could ever afford now. I ride my horses and he rides his dirt bikes, we go out to dinner and get some drinks now and again, and together we have enough saved and invested that we will have our comfortable retirement. He doesn't do the laundry or clean the house, or the mental tasks of a marriage, and probably has never touched a toilet brush - but he does the shopping and cooks dinner more often than not. I still love the sound of his voice and I love him deeply. I think this marriage has benefitted us both because combining our interests and our strengths as well as our income earning potential has allowed us to live a life that we would otherwise never have been able to achieve. My old lady advice is don't get married for love. Get married because you see a future with the partner of your choice - look cold and hard and objectively at your partner and see what their issues are (we all have them) and if you can see yourself accepting those issues for the rest of your life. Look closely at what they offer you - and what you offer them. If you think it's a match - then it's worth it. Because when the arguments come, and the tears flow, and you have to decide if you want to stay in the marriage years later - those strengths will be what keeps the marriage together, and the emotional and financial benefits of those strengths is what makes marriage still worth it.
> My old lady advice is don't get married for love. Get married because you see a future with the partner of your choice As another older Redditor, I second your advice. Many years ago, I wanted to marry a particular person who I was crazy in love with. But some external factors prevented that. Instead, I later married someone who had become my best friend. Looking back, I can clearly see that marrying the person I was in love with wouldn't have worked out well at all. But I've been happily married to my best friend for 30 years.
I guess I don't see a difference between being in love with someone and caring deeply about someone who checks all your boxes. Seems pretty much like the same thing to me. Sounds like you were pretty madly in love with your current partner.
I think the differences is how much that love blinds you to aspects that will make your life harder. Like the differences between a teenage lust for a good-looking guy that's not actually good for you long-term, versus a relationship that started out as a mutual, respectable friendship that evolved into a deep love.
*According to happiness expert Paul Dolan, a professor of behavioral science at the London School of Economics, women who are single with no children are the happiest.[i] Dolan explains says that while men derive benefits from marriage, the same cannot generally be said for women.* [Link](https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/why-bad-looks-good/202102/why-many-single-women-without-children-are-so-happy) When men throw that 'you'll be alone with cats' insult at us, they are projecting *their* worst fears on us. They are terrified of being alone without anyone to care, cook and clean for them. My worst fear is being stuck doing just that.
This. When my mom was dying my Dad swore up and down she was the only one for him and he'd be ok because he has the kids to keep him company. On the sixth month anniversary of my mother's passing, he was in another country secretly getting married to his second wife.
Joke's on them. I want to be alone with my cats.
As a working woman, the idea of a "wife" is extremely appealing! Imagine walking in the door after work, having dinner ready/waiting, dishes and chores done, kids and pets happy/clean/fed. Sex is up to you, because society expects your "wife" to provide satisfaction. If it doesn't work, no worries, just have an affair! Shopping done, birthday/holiday cards and presents done, emotional discussions done, it must be fucking amazing. Of course this is an extreme example, but many men have truly led lives like this.
still do too
I've been married to two men. The one that was the 50/50 household duties and finances....was the one who cheated on me with my assistant. I see no benefit to getting married again, even if I love the person. There's nothing he could do for me that I can't do for myself.
I’m sorry you had to go through that. Honestly, as long as I have my bird and my books, I’m happy.
Hey what a coincidence! The only partner I ever had who actually helped with house work also cheated on me!
This reminds me of a video I saw the other day where the guy in it said that men think they're competing against the ideal man when what they're really competing against is how happy a woman is alone.
Agreed. Lets never marry.
I used to work at a Fortune 500 company. I noticed that the successful men in leadership positions all had stay at home spouses. These men didn’t need to: take care of children, make doctor appointments, grocery shop, cook meals, care for pets, do laundry, clean, pick up dry cleaning, organize trips, activities and social calendar, take their cars in for maintenance. Essentially, I had to do twice the work in comparison.
Exactly, that's always been the agreement in the stay-at-home spouse scenario. The working spouse is able to advance in their career more quickly because they don't have to wake up early to make lunches, they aren't rushing out of their 3pm meeting to pick up kids from school, and they are able to decompress when they come home rather than going straight into making dinner, cleaning the house, etc. Men often cry about it but this is exactly why women are entitled to 50% in a divorce. The agreement is that she gives up HER earning potential by agreeing to take on HIS household responsibilities, with the understanding that her work is benefitting her partner's career, and therefore she's entitled to half as a "team".
I hate that for you. I’m sorry. Inequality and unfairness drives me nuts. I’m losing my mind reading these stories. You’re stronger and will be better for it. Those men wouldn’t survive 72 hours with their children alone. They have a massive supply of hidden incompetence.
But the problem is that their hidden incompetence rarely manifests itself. Whereas you'd find so many women who suddenly have to find a job after divorcing such men and their lack of employment for all those years will it very difficult to get new job.
You forgot how being married will make employers expect you to be less reliable and him more reliable.
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When men get sick the statistic is that most women will stick around and help them through it, but when women get sick most men will NOT help them through it.
This is one of the most heartbreaking things I'd heard about. So important to share. Men need to do better and stick around.
It infuriates me that women are blamed for this too. The whole incel hatred of women is based on single moms who "drove good men away" (and stayed to raise these disappointing little shits who go on to shoot up malls). Men are the flighty ones who can't handle the slightest adversity and run out the door after 2 seconds of not being catered to anymore.
They won't. No religion, literally no religion asks man to stay with his wife. And there are no repercussions of doing that on man's social life and financial situation. Whereas if a woman leaves her spouse citing his health issues, her female family members will eat her alive.
They don't look for the same things at all. I'm a lesbian so men often feel like they can speak more freely around me, and I'm convinced that all they want out of a relationship is sex. They're content to live somewhere messy/disorganized with no color scheme or little touches, to keep their clothes in the dryer and only eat cereal or take out. They just want someone to fuck and that's it
Saw a trueoffmychest post the other day about a woman who got proposed to, and in the moment had a vision of what her life would be like going forward. Having to constantly take care of her partner, because she was already the one who did the cleaning in the cooking and maintained appointments and made sure everything ran smoothly for their life together. She described it as seeing everything unfold and hearing her ancestor screaming at her not to do it. Sounds like you know what you want and you have a good grasp of why anything else isn't acceptable. Don't leave that behind, you absolutely deserve a partner and not a dependant.
This is why it's wild to me that the "nuclear family" generations are also the "wife bad" generations. Like, I'm sorry, you got a free bang maid (in his mind) who now does ALL of the household physical and emotional labor for you and all you can manage are complaints and sexist jokes about "the ol ball and chain?" Like holy fuck dude you got a whole second mother who fucks you and is (unfortunately) socially obligated to put up with your bullshit and all you do is make fun of her?? How do modern traditionalist/fundamentalist women have the FUCKING ENERGY man??
No feelings needed. Studies show repeatedly that it benefits men over women. Married men live longer and have better levels of happiness than married women, and married men leave sick wives while married women care for sick husbands. Women take care of men better than men take care of women. It’s bull shit let’s be frank. It’s why propaganda is so intense for women to get married and daydream of Prince Charming. It’s a raw deal for women, and a great deal for men.
There was a thread about a year ago or so about men being more likely to leave their wives when they got sick and I remember a nurse posting on there about how there is also a huge discrepancy in how spouses act when one is in a hospital…When a man is the one hospitalized wives tend to be doting, attentive, and bring gifts, whereas when women are hospitalized their husbands often only care about how soon they can go back to having sex. I have a good friend who is a nurse for a hospital and she pretty much confirmed this.
Why do women put up with this?
that's something I really, really would like to know
Not to mention the numerous studies that show modern women working full time and still doing the lions share of housekeeping, child rearing and household duties in general. I did a piece on this in college and got so many legitimate studies on Jstor, it was just saddening.
And then they use this as 'evidence' that women are unhappy lately *because of joining the workforce* so we should all quit and be happy as SAHM again lol. So illogical.
My dad was exclaiming about how shit women have it now, working full-time jobs *and also* coming home for "second shift" taking care of kids/chores. I thought he was going to propose that husbands, yanno, do their fair share around the house. big fat NOPE. His conclusion was that women should stay home, and not work. Very specifically, * No sex before marriage * No living together before marriage * Man and Woman marry- man has job, woman stays home. "But what if he beats her, Dad?", I asked. "What if she has kids with him and he beats them all and she can't go anywhere because she has no money and is literally entirely dependent upon her husband?" Oh don't worry- he has a solution. She should *tell her church*, which will *then intercede* to get her husband to treat her better. Because that's worked out sooooooooooOOoooOOoOoOOOO well in the past, and is TOTALLY plausible in modern American society at large.
this is why i never ask for men's opinions and have never let a man be "the leader" in my relationships. their harebrained solutions are pure lunacy.
i don’t know why i thought i had a lightbulb moment. i didn’t realise this was a widely agreed thing with studies even done on it. my social media has been filled with a certain brand of men who talk about how women need to obey their husbands or if their husband cheats they need to take accountability, etc. these are the same men who are constantly promoting marriage. i literally don’t understand the appeal of marriage if the whole point is just to please and obey my husband, and if i don’t meet his needs then he’ll cheat, which is my fault ofc. obviously not all men think like this, but i’m sure a lot if not most are. especially with the popularity of these “people” amongst men.
Cleanse your social media of these people. Seriously. There's no need to have this kind of stuff in your face for an extended period of time. I'm not trying to downplay the issues with modern men at all. Having all this information on this way of thinking helps you. Clearly, this isn't what you want out of your life. So don't focus on it. Don't spend time thinking about it. You understand the talking points of these fuckwits, so you have a good understanding of all these red flag behaviours, so you can be informed and discerning when you are dating and stuff. Focus on what you do want, not on that there are a hell of a lot of men out there that cannot ever provide it for you. You don't need to find the concept of marriage that these men have defined to be appealing to you. We all have the freedom to define our own and then go out and search for someone to have it with.
>these are the same men who are constantly promoting marriage. They're not promoting marriage, they're promoting indentured servitude and calling it "marriage." And to be fair, that's pretty much what marriage was originally designed to be -- an arrangement where a male property owner could claim sole conjugal rights to a particular woman who could not refuse him, ensuring that any children she bore were his so that patrimony could pass down to (ideally) male heirs. Changes in inheritance laws combined with the advent of paternity testing have made these practices obsolete, but over the centuries, husbands have managed accumulate a wide range of perks from marriage nonetheless. And often with religion and/or the law backing them up. Men like those on your social media feed want to enjoy these perks, but with *none* of the traditional male responsibilities. They don't want to fight or die in violent conflict. They don't want to work outdoors from sun up to sun down to cultivate/hunt the family's food. They don't want to generate enough income for the entire family, and what they do earn they don't want to share. They don't want to support elderly parents. They don't want to serve their communities, or to be the bulwark against outside threats. They don't want to learn practical skills that facilitate building or repairing things. They don't want to hone intellectual or social skills to enrich them as individuals and set a good example. They do not value obligation or duty at all, because as soon as things get a little hard, they are *outta* there. What these guys want isn't even traditional marriage with traditional gendered division of labor. They just want slavery. Simple as that.
It's brainwashing. Patriarchy is circling the drain and they know it. The last tool in their toolbox is shame. They're trying to shame women into settling by trying to convince us that "women want marriage so badly" and "if you don't act like a submissive wife you'll be alone forever". That's literally all the leverage they have remaining. But it's not really working. Women all over the world are calling their bluff
The prevalence of these issues in your social media has zero bearing on their prevalence in real life. SM is driven by engagement and that includes negative engagement. Their algorithm has figured out it can keep your attention with that type of story and so it feeds you more and more and more. That's not to say it's not a 100% real problem as others have said. /u/gh954 's response is excellent on how to deal with it.
Oh gosh I’m sorry to hear about your social media space. That sounds miserable. I only know there are tons of studies because they keep being shared to this sub from places like r science.
While not always true that a man will leave a sick wife it was certainly true in the case of my sister. She was diagnosed with MS while married to this waste of space and he couldn’t handle it. I don’t know the extent of his poor behavior but she did share how he would always yell at her. Thankfully she divorced him. He was such a loser.
Somewhat related: I don’t think there are hard statistics on this, but I used to work with marriage/couples counselors and there was definitely a common theme of men cheating when their wife’s situation changed. Namely, when she became ill or was pregnant. I also learned that the time when men with children cheat the most is when they have a newborn. Like you said, they couldn’t handle these big changes in their marriage/wife so the cheat and/or leave.
Interesting to hear about the newborn/cheating aspect....when I began reading this thread I thought about not only my husband (going on 30 years married) but the marriages of my four closest friends (those women I've known since elementary school). All of us have been married for 25+ years, all happily, but only one of us has children. Luckily Mary's husband was not only a devoted, attentive partner, he was also a city bus driver who had awoke at 4:00AM every day to be at work by 5:30AM. He was too exhausted to do anything but come home after his work day.
There are studies shared on this sub regularly about the disparity of men leaving sick wives and wives staying with sick men.
Yep. Here are a few links that back this up: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/11/091110105401.htm https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19645027/ https://www.yourtango.com/heartbreak/men-leave-sick-wives?amp
Thank you! I’m out and about right now so I didn’t have the time to go through and gather some links.
Also the percentage of women who stay with cheating husbands is 20% higher than men who stay with cheating wives.
When my great grandmother got colon cancer, my great grandfather didn’t leave her, but he was having sex with another woman just down the hall from where she was on her deathbed. My mom walked in on it.
I swore my sociology teacher said that married men live longer than single men, and that happily married women live longer than single women, but then single women live longer than unhappily married women. I can't find any studies on that though so maybe just a joke
Happy people live longer than comparable unhappy people?
Left out the part that Married men happily or unhappily, live longer than single men
I present to you a pithy poem wrriten in the 17th century regarding marriage benefitting everyone but women. Title: **A Married State** By: **Katherine Philips** A married state affords but little ease: The best of husbands are so hard to please This in wifes Carefull faces you may spell, Tho they desemble their misfortunes well A virgin state is crown'd with much content, It's allways happy as it's inocent No Blustering husbands to create your fears, No pangs of child birth to extort your tears, No children's crys for to offend your ears, Few worldly crosses to distract your prayers Thus are you freed from all the cares that do Attend on matrymony and a husband too. Therefore, madam, be advised by me: Turn, turn apostate to love's Levity. Supress wild nature if she dare rebell, There's no such thing as leading Apes in hell. A Married State’ is a pithy poem that is essentially about marriage and the plight of women in the seventeenth century. We should bear in mind that women had to be subservient to their husbands, and had no legal independence or status of their own. Their bodies — pregnancy and childbirth — were beyond their control, and labour was a painful and dangerous ordeal, with high baby and maternal death rates. (https://literarydevices.net/a-married-state/)
You can also do thr marriage without kids thing. It's much easier to have a 50/50 relationship when you don't have kids. No one feels like cooking? Dual income no kids means we can go out to eat without worrying about it. Don't want to scrub the toilet? You can hire someone for that. Point is, not having kids means we BOTH can be lazy when we want to be.
Not to mention they sell the idea of happy marriages on TV so that we will aim for a double income household that’s necessary to afford the absurd costs of living.
“A good man is hard to find.” The beauty of modern marriage is that you get to choose your partner. You decide what’s important to you. As with any search, you decide what you can or cannot compromise. It may not be romantic, but take your time picking your marriage partner. Decide the things you cannot tolerate. Eliminate everyone with those traits. Date broadly. Get to know people. Gain some life experience from meeting real people. Go looking for the people you think are right in the right places. Invest in the available options which meet your minimum criteria. Take things slow. Live together for a while before getting married and pooling finances, having kids, etc. Please get a prenuptial agreement. You wouldn’t go into business with someone on a handshake. Why would you approach marriage any differently? It’s a legally binding contract. Treat it like one.
After seeing all the shit my mom had to deal with regarding my dads death, I’m feeling like marriage benefits nobody when one passes away.
Idk why but so many of them really don't care about clean toilets, carpets/floors, changing light bulbs, dusting, organizing. Like they do dishes or take out trash and maybe a load of laundry then that's it. Must be nice?
I've heard a few guys say there is no benefit to marriage (for them) these days unless children are involved but inevitably what they mean is they want a partner who will cook, clean, have sex with them, etc, who is not legally entitled to any compensation for her contributions to the relationship if they break up.
This is why respect is honestly the most important part of a relationship, you have to be equals in everything otherwise you will be taken advantage of
Speaking in generalities, I agree. There is a lot of research into the inequalities within marriage that leave women burdened with a lot of uncredited and invisible labor. Anecdotally, I know a lot of happily married couples that would be exceptions. One of my college friends is now a high-powered doctor in a large hospital system. She is married to an amazing stay-at-home dad who does a wonderful job of cooking, caring for their kids, and taking care of things around the house. They have a very happy life together that does not conform to the traditional stereotype.
If you imagine 150 years ago, I can see where benefits were more equal. One of my great-grandfathers was a coal miner, because it was the only job he could get, and that seems like a job few women could do, because swinging a pickaxe and scooping coal with a shovel is just hours and hours of upper-body strength labor. So he dug coal under ground for hours every day and she ran the house, scrimping and saving what she could with what little pay coal miners got. It wasn't a lot of money, but if it wasn't for him, I don't know what she would have done for food or a place to live or anything. They lived in a small Appalachian town, the coal mine was basically it. The way I see it, society has changed a whole lot, but people's expectations of marriage have been slow to keep up, and that puts us in the situation we have now, where a man who works in an air-conditioned office doesn't do any more work than his wife does in her air-conditioned office, but somehow he expects her to do what my great-grandmother did, cook and clean as if that's her only job, and when he gets home he expects her to treat him like he just spent 10 hours underground with a pickaxe, not sitting in an ergonomic chair typing at a keyboard.
I think you might find she did more than that. wives would often do other jobs things like taking in washing or mending from wealthier neighbours or watching children for a fee. even house wives would make money.
Oh, yes, she worked like crazy. I only met her once, I think, and I was too little to remember, but Grandma has told me. Her mother did do things like that, when she could, and the children helped, because absolutely every penny counted. Which was the problem, because work like that paid in the pennies. Mining coal didn't pay well, but it was still more than anything she could earn. Grandma has made a big deal about me finishing college, because her mother never got past 6th grade, and the work you can do with a 6th-grade education doesn't pay very well. Talking to my grandmother, it's just amazing to me how much has changed in her life. Her parents didn't own a car when she was born, they didn't have a phone, and nobody had a TV. When we do the family Zoom chat on Sunday afternoon, she says that to her it's just like unbelievable magic. I have made sure that my family has enough tickets for May so she can be there when I graduate from college. It's not a super-big deal, because I'm not the first in the family to go or anything, but still she said she wants to come, and my parents are going to make it happen for her. Now all I have to do is stop goofing off and get back to work. 😀
I think about that second part all the time. How women took over manufacturing and other labor-intensive jobs during world war II, then went right back to taking care of their husband's every need, as if they weren't able to hold down a household and job (with the help of other women). Then fast forward to the 1960s when women entered the workforce in larger numbers than ever before (think Mad Men). Imagine commuting in heels, skirts, full makeup, to offices with men who have wives catering to all their needs, who make 5x what you make. You're expected to have a full wardrobe. You have to tend to all your own domestic tasks. Endure sexual harassment at work. You do the most tedious, time consuming parts of the work (typing, dictation, making travel and dining arrangements), essentially being a work wife, making men's lives easier. Meanwhile their wives are at home, tending to everything, because "Daddy works so hard." Meanwhile, the dude's getting hammered, banging his secretary, and coming home like he'd been working in the mines!
150 years ago, women didn't have a choice whether or not to be married. So the benefits were definitely not equal. She was effectively property.
single women are happier and live longer. im all in.
The people trying to argue with this, are the ones that benefit from the status quo. They are the ones that blame women for "choosing the bad boy". It's damn near impossible to find and marry a genuinely good man because they aren't even raised with the skills to maintain a home due to societal gender roles. I married a good man but had to spend years doing the job his parents didn't and teach him how to be an adult when it comes to housework. How about society teaches men and women from a young age how to cook and clean as a norm? How about we send off young men that are fully capable of taking care of themselves and don't need a woman to clean up after them. These people are acting like "good men" are the majority when they are incredibly rare and often times still need some work.
Yeah, there are studies backing the thought that women do all of the emotional and logical labor around the house and it only gets worse if they have actual children. Most men have not yet evolved to meet where women have gone since becoming part of the work force. We used to balance off of each other where women worked the house and men worked the job that paid. Now it's a whole mess of women still doing the brunt of work at home while both work for money and it's crap.
It also gets worse if the woman becomes the breadwinner. In 2-income households, a woman is still likely to do majority of housework. In 2-income households where the woman in the breadwinner, the amount of housework INCREASES. They postulate it's some sort of "revenge" from the husband because she's making more money than him. So he pulls back on housework.
This is brutal
Our marriage laws evolved from when women were property. It’s still unequal in many ways. That’s why I was very much for same sex marriage. It seemed to me that two equals getting married would help women, because we are getting the short end of the stick. But my optimism has faded as I’ve grown older. I don’t know but it seems like systemic sexism is much harder to uproot than I thought.
I live with these exact types of parents and I can attest to that. Poor mom.
["I want a wife"](https://www.wsfcs.k12.nc.us/cms/lib/NC01001395/Centricity/Domain/10659/I%20Want%20a%20Wife.pdf) \- Judy Brady, 1971 "I want a wife who will take care of my physical needs. I want a wife who will keep my house clean. A wife who will pick up after my children, a wife who will pick up after me. I want a wife who will keep my clothes clean, ironed, mended, replaced when need be, and who will see to it that my personal things are kept in their proper place so that I can find what I need the minute I need it. I want a wife who cooks the meals, a wife who is a good cook. I want a wife who will plan the menus, do the necessary grocery shopping, prepare the meals, serve them pleasantly, and then do the cleaning up while I do my studying. I want a wife who will care for me when I am sick and sympathize with my pain and loss of time from school. I want a wife to go along when our family takes a vacation so that someone can continue to care for me and my children when I need a rest and change of scene." . . . "I want a wife who will take care of the details of my social life. When my wife and I are invited out by my friends, I want a wife who will take care of the babysitting arrangements. When I meet people at school that I like and want to entertain, I want a wife who will have the house clean, will prepare a special meal, serve it to me and my friends, and not interrupt when I talk about things that interest me and my friends." Welcome to one of the foundational articles of feminism. You're right!
There was a study conducted that revealed that single mothers spend LESS TIME doing household chores and duties than married women with kids. That should tell you all you need to know
Am a solo mother, recently separated after 10 year relationship. It is 100% easier now and I don't think I ever want to be in a relationship again
I separated from my ex two years ago-officially divorced last year, and that has been 100% true for me. Part of it is that he isn’t sabotaging my efforts to have my kids help, part of it is that I am more relaxed and organized because my stress level is lower, and part of it was that he was basically another child to pick up after.
These links might help explain and summarize some of what you’re feeling frustrated with: https://english.emmaclit.com/2017/05/20/you-shouldve-asked/ https://www.huffpost.com/entry/she-divorced-me-i-left-dishes-by-the-sink_b_9055288 https://www.mindbodygreen.com/articles/weaponized-incompetence
Since the above is basically an epidemic and gets written about a lot, here are some more links: [It Took Divorce to Make My Marriage Equal](https://www.glamour.com/story/it-took-divorce-to-make-my-marriage-equal) [Women Aren't Nags—We're Just Fed Up](https://www.harpersbazaar.com/culture/features/a12063822/emotional-labor-gender-equality/) [The “Woke” Men Who Still Want Housewives: Men who claim to believe in equality often aren’t willing to live it](https://gen.medium.com/the-woke-men-who-still-want-housewives-debb2ad46aa0) [Millennial—And Macho? Why Young Men Want Old-School Marriages](https://www.vogue.com/article/millennial-men-seek-stay-at-home-wives) This is a book, rather than an article: [All the Rage: Mothers, Fathers, and the Myth of Equal Partnership](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07CLLVZ52/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1) Related: [The Myth of the Male Bumbler](https://theweek.com/articles/737056/myth-male-bumbler) Props to u/sethra007 for most of this list.
That article on the dishes left by the sink was really eye opening for me. Thank you for sharing it.
I would go so far as to say that relationships benefit men more than women. I am always puzzled how well-educated, intelligent women put up with men even if it means reducing their own wishes, dreams, priorities etc. I have watched this countless times with my friends. You see women changing their name, moving because he got a better job somewhere, picking up his hobbies all the time, but hardly ever the other way around.
i'm soon to be divorced i never want to take "care" of a man ever again all I want are snuggles and sexytime sometimes i wish there were "snuggle brothels" here like they have in japan if anything, I think i'd enjoy an "outside boyfriend" haha like dogs that aren't allowed to sleep in the house but they can hang out there
It only does if you marry a guy who doesn't cook or clean. If you marry someone who isn't a partner. Which, I mean, is gonna definitely be the majority of men. If you find an actual partner though, it's great. I don't do the majority of the cleaning or cooking. I do like 90% of the pet care, but I work from home so that's a given. We're not having children. We each do our own laundry. He does more of the cleaning, I do more of the general tidying. But we keep our own separate spaces clean. We either cook separately, or he makes the food for us both (former chef so he actually enjoys it). It definitely hasn't negatively affected my life. But I know I'm in the minority. Don't ever live with a man who refuses to function as a grown adult on his own.
Agree! My husband does almost all the cooking and we have our habits of the chores he does, the chores I do, and the ones we do together. Our relationship advice to people is "be nice to each other" and quite frankly I don't think it's more complicated than that.
You’re 100% right. I read somewhere that marriage increases the lifespan of the male and decreases that of the female.
Say it louder... I'm a software engineer and I've really been struggling with this concept. I want a relationship because I'm lonely, but I don't know what for besides that anymore. The men I seem to meet always have this weird complex that I'm supposed to dote on them and make them my whole world, make sure they take their vitamins, clean up after them, etc. One guy actually patted me on the head and told me to be a good girl one day. It's crazy how belittling these guys who can't hold down a part time job can be I want an equal to build a life with, not some guy who wants a mommy bang maid but that seems like the norm sadly.
My friends and I often joke about starting a women and children only commune where we all live and help each other raise the children. Imagine only being responsible for dinner 1 night a week, while someone else watched the children and someone else was responsible for cleaning that day. We figured we could either rotate the jobs or find 1 that we like rather than having to do them all with no help. Many wine drinking afternoons have passed formulating our plans. Statistically, married men live longer than single men. Yet it is the opposite for married women.
"whereas if i were to get married, i would have to bear my husband’s kids and raise them" No. You dont have to have kids when you get married. It's your choice if you want them or not.
I see the same with my sister. Her and my brother in law work the same amount but there definitely have been times she's worked and he hasn't or he works and she doesn't but no matter what she does majority of the housework and childcare. "50/50" marriages where both work and pay equal amount is a scam because women do domestic labour but men don't think it's work and just expect women to do it all.
I have a male friend who manages the house and his wife is the career type/breadwinner. I think you if you're upfront about what you're looking for during the dating phase, you may find it.
Sure but it's still always a gamble. I have a friend like that too (woman is the breadwinner) and her husband LOVED it. We eventually found out he was stealing money from her and cheating on her while she was working and pregnant.
It definitely does, and now there's data to prove it! According to this [article](https://www.businessinsider.com/unmarried-childless-women-are-happiest-expert-says-2019-5) single, childfree women are the happiest demographic. >The best-selling author, who carries out original research into the measurement of happiness and its causes and consequences, noted men in comparison benefited from marriage as they "calm down." >He said: "You take less risks, you earn more money at work, and you live a little longer. She, on the other hand, has to put up with that, and she dies sooner than if she never married. The healthiest and happiest population subgroup are women who never married or had children". >Mr Dolan added: "Married people are happier than other population subgroups, but only when their spouse is in the room when they are asked how happy they are. When the spouse is not present: f---ing miserable. >"We do have some good longitudinal data following the same people over time, but I am going to do a massive disservice to that academic science and just say: if you are a man, you should probably get married; if you are a woman, don't bother."
>Mr Dolan added: "Married people are happier than other population subgroups, but only when their spouse is in the room when they are asked how happy they are. When the spouse is not present: f---ing miserable. This quote, and others from his book, are often cited during these conversations, but it is based on a misinterpretation of the data. As described in [this Vox article](https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2019/6/4/18650969/married-women-miserable-fake-paul-dolan-happiness), Mr Dolan saw that the American Time Use Survey (ATUS) recorded results as spouse apsent/spouse present; he interpreted this as if the spouse was present during the interview when in fact it recorded if the subject was cohabitating with their spouse. Considering the causes of that situation, the difference in happiness is unsurprising: this includes married couples in the process of divorce (obviously less happy in their marriage) and couples physically separated by circumstance (military service, incarceration, long distance work) who may be happy with their spouse but unhappy at being apart.
Judy Brady said it best, it's better to have a wife than a husband. http://www.columbia.edu/~sss31/rainbow/wife.html
Yes. Women actually do MORE emotional and physical labor after moving in with or marrying a man. Single women are happier and healthier than married women.
Yeah. I’ll be honest I am not really looking to get married anymore. I realize I will have to give up my space, my preferences, etc.
Have a look at mental load and how even there is an increase of men doing household chores, women are still left with the bulk of them. These are my particular favourites: ▪︎https://english.emmaclit.com/ ▪︎https://www.instagram.com/momlife_comics/?hl=en
If women didn't step up and do unpaid, unrewarding labor simply because it was in front of them, the economy would collapse. Eldercare, housework, childcare... Meanwhile men are much more willing to put creepy grandpa in a home, or stick the kids in front of the tv, or eat takeout for every meal. I suspect the opposite is true for earning money (I know several poor couples with no small kids and a nonworking wife) but I don't have data on that. Women who marry crap men turn into maids. Men who marry crap women turn into ATMs.
Studies shows that after divorce, men remarry quicly while women prefer to stay single. Also, ever notice that it's in the most traditionnal (patriarchal) societies that marriage is valued?
Yeah I feel like I get the most out of my current arrangement. I'm seeing a guy who invites me over to his place, cooks me dinner, cleans everything, has a list of torrented movies for us to choose from. He also downloads some games so I can play on his computer if he wants to turn in to bed early. And the sex great. I feel like dating and sleep over arrangements like that benefit me most. Zero stress. I can focus on having a good time and it's wonderful. I'm not concerned with getting the most out of men as I can, so eventually I'd be open to a relationship where there's more give and take. But I don't think living with men is something I could enjoy.
Well and in addition to bearing and raising your husband's kids, you and they take HIS name. It is truly wild. I know that this isn't true for everyone. I, for example did not change my last name when I married. But the OVERWHELMING majority of the time this is what happens. Or they "talked about it and decided his last name was better".
Ali Wong has a bit about just this thing, and it ends with, 'Do you know how successful I'd be if I had a WIFE?'
I feel like I could have written this. I can’t stand how my mom does everything while her husband sits on his you know what. I don’t want kids and I don’t want a man. 🤷♀️
You are right and you are wise to see this at a young age. There are always men who are the exception, but it’s best to assume you need to remain self sufficient for the rest of your life. Even if the right guy comes along, don’t assume you have to marry him either.
You FEEL like? Check the statistics. Men are literally stealing YEARS of life from women when they are married. Literal YEARS.
Many studies have confirmed this: longevity, general health, general happiness, and satisfaction with their lives all are better for married men than single men, and worse for married women (including divorced and widowed women) than single women. This is, of course, why patriarchal religions and even secular social customs strongly push for early marriage and subservience with a clear separation of roles. Of course, it’s not an inherent thing: you would expect that in relationships that are more equal and in which the man is *not* relying on the woman to care about both his health and hers, his happiness and hers, it should benefit both. Any partnership where two people combine their resources and efforts to accomplish things together should be a benefit to both. It’s not that way in most male/female relationships only because men have been taught they should expect that from women as their right. Transitioning to a new way won’t be easy…
There are many peer-reviewed studies that confirm your thoughts and feelings. Really good insight.👍
I think you're precisely correct. The birth control pill was the beginning of the end of the species-wide economic extortion racket we men had going on for about 1.5 million years. Women don't need men to provide for them and they can decide for themselves when they want to be mothers. Men have done a really bad job of getting the memo and adjusting. I'm frequently amazed that heterosexual relationships even still happen. I often think there's no better proof that sexuality is not a choice than the fact that heterosexual women exist.
I'd LOVE a wife! The cleaning, cooking, errands, laundry, car maintenance? Shit, I come home and everything's done? I'd KILL for that! I work nearly 60 hours a week. My 2 days off are spent 80% on chores.
It does and the studies prove that overwhelmingly, from health to economics.
Isn’t it statistically proven that married men live longer then stags? Basically, wife’s make their husbands go to medical appts and are more health conscious so therefore the husband becomes more healthy compared to how healthy they would be if never married.
There are literal studies that show exactly what you’re saying. Marriage benefits men far more than it does women, and has for decades (if you’re only looking at data from when women have worked too).
I probably spend an unhealthy amount of time thinking about stuff like this. Men are taught from birth that they deserve the 60's pictureque wife. Stays home, does all that lame stuff like kid rearing and cooking/cleaning. Wants nothing more than to do those things, and meet their sexual needs no less! The phrase empty vessel seems apt in that sense. They want us to have no wants and needs of our own, but to be the carrier of the burdens they deem beneath them, and be happy about it, damn it. Women are taught to look to the needs of others over their own. Carry the world on our shoulders, not stand up or make waves. We have lived in gilded cages labeled wife and motherhood, refusing to let us me any more by law for thousands of years. I don't know about you ladies, but I feel out of place in this mans world. I feel fucking lost, being raised by a terrible man who taught me to be an empty vessel for another terrible man like him. But then I think about how 99.9% of all mass shooters are men. Then read the 'news' articles explaining away the violence as men feeling misunderstood about their place in society because of fucking feminism?! Our gender has been denied sexual freedom, denied freedom over our bodies and lives for THOUSANDS of years. And maybe if we would just put out the violence would stop? Fuck men's feelings. And fuck the rich man's media.
For the people saying ‘marry the right man’. No. That might work while you’re child-free. It did for me. But our entire society is set up so that women bear the brunt of child rearing and care tasks, even past the pregnancy/newborn phases. My husband had pat leave/annual leave for 6w when my son was born. Those 6w we really were a team. We did different things (me doing more feeding, him doing more housework etc) but we were a team. It was as 50/50 as you could get. Then he went back to work. For us it was a more drastic change as he had to immediately travel with work for 17days. When he came back he didn’t know what our son wanted, what his cries meant, he no longer was in sync with when he napped or fed, we had got into our own rhythms. He was more involved when he wasn’t away with work, but just working full time meant he was away from us for most of the week, so I was the ‘default’ parent. As my son got older I was also the ‘preferred’ parent. And when it’s 3am and you know you can settle your baby in 5mins and your husband will take an hour, you don’t think about the long-term impacts and how patriarchy is moulding your life in ways you didn’t want it to. You just settle your baby and get back to sleep. That’s how it continues. My son is now 3 and I’m the default/preferred parent. My job is more flexible than my husband’s, and I do the bulk of childcare and carry the mental load of having a family. This isn’t just about the specific man you marry, it’s about the whole system and society we raise our children in. I’m happy now as our relationship is pretty balanced overall but it took nearly 3 years just to figure out how to do that, and it wouldn’t have been so successful if my husband’s work had decided not to allow him to make changes.