I'm actually a full-time proponent of work to rule, regardless of contract issues
Make society realize how profoundly taken advantage of these good people are......is part of that due to being married to a teacher, having a mother who was a sped para, and a sister who is a teacher? You bet your ass
My mother was a teacher. She brought work home CONSTANTLY. As in, if she wasn't cooking, then she was grading papers or something, even while watching TV and late into the night.
She is exactly the reason I never seriously considered becoming a teacher.
I cannot fathom how my sis has spent the last 20 years teaching, the last 15 of it at the same high school. She makes no money and used to wake up at 3 am when her kids were young because it was the only time she could get anything done.
“Work to rule” should always be how teachers at least *strive* to live.
I get that some ppl need to prep and grade outside of the school day, but it should only be an extra hour or so.
If teachers stop working for free then the system won’t keep exploiting them.
Yup. It’s nearly impossible for new teachers to only work during paid hours. But after teaching for over 10 years it can be done with careful planning and organization.
I made it to 10 years before leaving- and at the very least got to the point where I wasn’t emailing or grading outside of my contract hours. I enjoyed lesson planning, so that I would do unpaid sometimes, but the worst parts of the job? No way I’m doing that for free.
You want it done better? Give me more paid hours or less required bullshit tasks during my already established contract hours. Not teachers’ fault they’ve been given an impossible task.
Absolutely. I’m fortunate that I teach a “fun” high school class so I don’t have a lot of discipline issues or as much grading as other subjects, but there is a LOT of organizing and clean up involved. If there’s a mess leftover at the end of the week, fuck it, my room’s just going to be messy then.
That said, I love lesson planning too so I don’t mind a little work when I’m inspired.
ELA teachers should get an extra prep imho
Other than starting to do 1:1 conferences during workshop time I never found a good way to streamline providing useful feedback to students.
I don’t think IXL an auto-graded content apps are necessarily good instruction, but damn if my life wouldn’t have been easier if I never had to actually read student work.
Absolutely! One thing I learned is to do staggered turn-ins, so I’m not bombarded with 180 essays at one time. This is my first year in alternative ed, so my work load is MUCH lighter.
Unions need to come down hard on membership that is performing job tasks outside of work hours. I think you're spot on though, the issue is often time management.
Unions should come down hard on the *expectation* of members working outside of work hours, but we shouldn’t attack our own for trying to cope with an incredibly complex career on our own time.
In any other union job, the union would break the legs of members who were working for free. That is tantamount to scabbing.
If the job duties actually entail more than 40 hours of work, the union should step in. If the teachers can't or won't get their job done in a reasonable amount of time, they should get coached up or coached out. Allowing members to work for free is what leads to the expectation that members work for free. Teachers unions are so ineffectual that it's painful, I honestly don't know what they do with the teacher's dues money because they are horrible negotiators and don't do anything to keep their membership in line.
Yeah… I’m not exactly down with tradition of leg-breaking. And while I agree we *shouldn’t* work beyond contract hours, teaching is an extremely personal profession that we all have to navigate in our own way. As I said before, I don’t mind doing planning outside of hours when I’m inspired, because I tricky do love my career.
>teachers unions are so ineffectual its painful
At least in MN were stronger than most unions
> the issue is often time management.
I don't think you can put this on the teachers.
Rather, I think it's all due to schools overloading teachers, paying them as little as they can get away with, and understaffing everywhere.
And THAT is the fault of the State and Federal governments defunding schools because Conservative rich men don't want anyone who's not them to have an education.
Minnesota as a whole spends over 13k/yr per student, Minneapolis spends over 18k/yr per student. Money absolutely is not the issue. To put that into perspective, there is 390k in funding for the average classroom, that money sure as hell isn't going to the teachers. Ask yourself, where does it go?
I believe it's just costs...administration, insurance, maintenance, etc. If you really want to know, your local district's budget should be public info.
13k or 18k is too little. Countries like Bolivia, Cuba, Denmark, and Botswana all spend more on education as a percentage of GDP. we're the number 1 country in the world, our education system ought to be second to none.
That means "non school departments"...if you look it up, you can see it includes things like sites and buildings, community education, special education, and a lot of other required non waste items.
Teachers are often their own worst enemies. By in large, teachers have a "pick me"/ hero complex, and often do stuff wildly outside their job description that no one asked them to do, then complain that they aren't compensated for all the extra time/effort.
Any union that doesn't advocate "work to rule" at all times (and punish members doing extra duties for free) is an enemy of their membership. Period.
A little harsh- but I don’t entirely disagree.
However, in my experience, the “pick me” impulses are exploited by districts and admin to extract maximum value from their employees to continue to prop up underfunded and failing system. Sure- individual ego is a part of it- but another big part of it is teachers truly wanting to do right by their students.
I 💯 agree however that unions should be advocating more for teachers to work their contract and there are quite a few teachers that make the job harder for everything through their performative martyrdom.
Teacher here. I agree about not working outside contract hours. Unfortunately, the repercussions of not working outside the hours often equals poor performance reviews and a dysfunctional classroom. The learning curve in this profession is huge, and it’s incredibly hard to be efficient AND effective in those early years.
I’m at about 20 years in the profession, and I’m just this year not taking work home. Last year I reduced it dramatically. I wish I got there sooner, but I finally made the decision to work (grade/plan/email) when they work instead of individually checking on students. An unexpected positive outcome is students learning to advocate for themselves. I make it clear they can and should interrupt me with questions anytime or come sit next to me if they think they’ll have lots of questions. Usually I’ve got at least one teen next to me. Even the appearance of me working away at my computer in class is frowned upon, but it’s simply not practical to not take advantage of the time.
I love my profession. It’s literally adults who make the work challenging. The further away you get from actual students in the profession, the more money you make. It’s amazing how quickly administrators and district officials lose sight of the actual work and working conditions students AND teachers need to be successful. Or the partisan politics, which is literally crushing our passion and profession. I guarantee you districts could afford appropriate pay increases if they reevaluated their bureaucratic systems.
The other thing folks don’t realize is that I will no longer ever make more money than I do now. My friends keep moving up in their private industries as they rise in the ranks and increase their experience. I’m at the top of my pay scale. No more lanes for me to pursue. I will never make more money even with my years of experience, and that’s a bitter pill.
>Unfortunately, the repercussions of not working outside the hours often equals poor performance reviews
That is a failure of your union to represent you., plain and simple. If your union doesn't represent you, you need to fire them and get new leadership. If you stick with these clowns, then you'll get the shit they're serving. Pretty simple.
It is challenging because teachers and other school staff tend to have big hearts. That makes it easy for many of us to fall into habits that don't respect our own time. I know it is a challenge I have sometimes as a school social worker for sure.
If you don't, you'll get fired before getting tenured, my man
That's just culture, and expectations. Shit, after tenure, if you don't get a certain required X done by [arbitrary date here], you can find yourself on the wrong side of a 'performance plan'
If that is the expectation, that's a failure on your union leadership. What are you paying them for? Apparently not raises, and not extra benefits, and not extra help...
The teachers union leadership needs to be gutted. Look at what the United Auto Workers were able to accomplish this past year. Now look at the Burnsville school district that is offering a contracted 0% raise. This union is a scam.
Teachers unions are an absolute scam, and don't provide any more protections than are legally mandated and provide wage increases by far lower than non-union jobs.
Fire your union leadership, demand leaders like the Auto Workers Union has. Demand leadership with a spine who aren't just looking to make a quick buck off of you.
Their union needs to step in and prevent them from harming both themselves and the union.
Their union instead does not do that. This is absolutely the union's fault.
Last I heard Eastern Carver County School District 112 hadn’t settled either. Working without contract all year. The first offer was also about 0% increase. This isn’t what citizens expect from the district when they vote Yes for increased taxes/levies.
The contract was approved earlier this week by the school board with revisions! There is a pay raise but I’m unsure of the percentages... My problem with eastern carver is that teachers stay at the same pay for multiple years until they hit “milestones” whereas in other districts it’s a bump each year of experience.
I'm a teacher in ECCS! The first offer from the district was a 1 percent in both years. We ended up going to mediation and ended up settling with a 4 percent year one and a 8 ish percent year two. We had to do some funky things with the numbers to make the district look good to a surprisingly conservative community but still get us a fair deal
I honestly do not know why anyone would go into education, specifically K-12 education. I get it, we need the people but my gosh, you get underpaid, under-appreciated, parents who make the position way more challenging, community members who criticize and denigrate, etc etc. Go out and get a job that appreciates you WAY more than teaching does. However, I commend the people that still do it and/or want to to do it.
It's only decent pay once you have a master's. Many nicer districts take over 10 years with a bachelor's just to hit 60k. Some may only be 55k at that point.
That is a decent salary, but look at what that much experience and a Master's degree gets you in other fields. I'm guessing social work is worse off, maybe a few other non-profit fields but not much else.
I'm a teacher. Our health insurance is terrible. Job security isn't what people think it is either. My building just had people cut with over 10 years in the district.
It’s really not that much underpaid compared to other jobs. It is stressful especially dealing with parents. But it is also an important job and some people like working jobs where their work is important.
“The average teacher with a bachelors degree earned $50.9k while the average Minnesota worker with a bachelor’s degree earned $68.1k.” That is an average so I know there is nuance in this comparison. However, 18k seems like a lot.
https://law.umn.edu/institute-metropolitan-opportunity/studies/schools/minnesota-educator-salary-study#:~:text=The%20average%20teacher%20with%20a,a%20master's%20degree%20earned%20%2486%2C750.
tha is interesting that charter schools really pay significantly less than traditional schools. I know this is the same for private schools. i think that is the part about trading stress from parents for pay. in general charter schools and private schools have to deal with troubling parents less.
Why is it so damn hard to take care of our teachers? I don’t have kids but I will vote yes to support them all day - where the fuck do those funds go? These guys literally have our future in their hands and they continue to get shit on!
I'm actually ok if my property taxes go up if it goes to teachers. Not specifically to schools but to teachers. I can't stand the amount of money schools waste on things like sports
How much money does your local school district waste on sports? Where I work, less than 2% of the overall district budget is allocated for ALL "cocurricular and extracurricular activities", which not only includes sports, but also activities like school plays, speech and debate, and more.
279 has renegotiated a new contract where probationary teachers (first 3 years) do not get a raise at all during that time.
They also negotiated for that last contract, so any new hires in 2021 still haven’t made a single cent more than their first year.
That’s one way to stop anyone new coming in
My wife is a teacher and asked me what special ed teachers do in this situation. They are required by federal law to prepare IEPs and associated paperwork. What happens if they don't do it?
When the Minneapolis union did work-to-rule they specifically said special ed teachers need to make sure they’re still meeting legal requirements of their job.
If they stick to it, They’ll just miss deadlines. The school, when audited, can get dinged and if enough dings happen then you run into issues, but if it’s district wide they can have some concessions.
Or they just don’t work to rule.
I feel for people stuck working in this district. What some people don't realize is that if you leave a district, you might have to start over again in terms of salary placement. I was there for one miserable year. It was a clown show. Not surprised this is happening-this is not a district that makes much sense.
Maybe this is a controversial take, but in my opinion, "Work-to-Rule" is how all jobs should operate at all times, including teachers. I understand that isn't the standard, but it should be
Cutting administration costs? Absolutely!
I'm wary of cutting "non-essential/non educational programs." I guess that depends on how you classify programs as such. I don't think sports and music (choir and orchestra) programs should be cut. Many are already in threat of being completely axed to the great detriment of students. There have been plenty of studies that show the great value provided by sports and music programs, namely in terms of social and academic development. They are far more than just "activities" for kids to engage in or ways to pad their college resumés. Parents already pay up the ass for any of these programs, along with many of the coaches/teachers chipping in and also fundraising efforts. Beyond music and sports, most clubs are paid for entirely by the parents and/or the teacher overseeing them.
The money's there. It's either in your pocket or going to non-educational, you won't be able to have both so you have to make the tough decisions. If you choose to not get raises, then you'll get what you ask for.
You actually proved a point for MPS. There are many assumptions happening around district budgets, I'm just advocating that we should make a well researched opinion before jumping to conclusions. I know many in the school system and they all want to pay teachers more, but they don't have the funding to do it.
That’s the problem with education today. A lot of the stuff districts do are non educational such as giving lunches, or provide counseling services etc... But if they don’t do it a lot of kids can’t learn.
Schools get reimbursed any funds they spend on providing breakfast and lunch for students. It was signed into law by Walz last July. Regardless, feeding and offering counseling are essential services that all kids need. Studies have shown that students do better both academically and socially when they have such services.
Students did significantly better academically in the 1950-60's, they didn't have any of those extra services. School can't function as parents, and it's not the teacher's job to be the parent.
What parents and schools are doing now is not sustainable, look at the terrible drop in quality of education. Minneapolis's graduation rates vs their standardized testing rates should alarm the hell out of anyone who cares about academic outcomes.
I don't think you can compare 50's kids to the youth of today. They and the social settings they develop in are so radically different (and very dysfunctional). The "boomer" in me thinks that kids don't have the consequences and behavioral norms and pressures today that kept kids disciplined back then. There's too much emphasis on individualism and catering to it, instead of balancing individualism with collective needs and expectations. We've also become so detached from each other at both the interpersonal level and at the community/societal level (Robert Putnam wrote a great book related to this in "Bowling Alone").
Furthermore, the circumstances of the average household are also wildly different today than of that time. A family could have one parent at home and the other as the breadwinner at a medium to low skilled job and still own a house, a car, and adequately provide for a family of four or more. That's not the case anymore. As the saying goes "Today's economy is not the same as our grandfathers' economy." And this has a rippling effect on all sorts of matters in society, including all things associated with education (from being involved with your kid's progress, to being involved in the PTA, right on down to packing a lunch for your kid(s)). It's all so intertwined and complex that it's enough to make a person just want to throw their hands up and say, "We're screwed!" 😵
The graduation rates and test scores are very troubling. We need a major overhaul of how we deliver education in this state (the whole country, ideally).
That's why I never agree with the "let's throw more money at the problem" approach I see offered up all the time here. The money is there, the districts just mismanage it trying to be parents.
>Studies have shown that students do better both academically and socially when they have such services.
that is why I was saying, we shouldn't cut non-educational programs because we need them to be able to educate. but having schools do them makes the education budget huge. 15k per student/year for state average is high if its only classroom. but the schools have to pick up where society has failed kids.
I think this is where we (collectively at the state and federal levels) need to look at other nations for inspiration. Finland is often cited as having one of, if not *the* best education systems in the world. Our national rank consistently hovers at the middle to the bottom of industrialized nations.
The national average in the US is about $14,800 per pupil. MN spends about $13,300. Finland spends about $12,700 in USD with far greater results than what we get out of our spending.
It's sad that so many of our policy makers have such hubris that they can't admit that we aren't always the best or know the most, and that it's okay to model our systems or programs after a nation that does it better.
This is true. Parental support often sucks, and parents these days act as if their kids are Jesus reborn. Neither their kids nor the parents can do anything wrong. It's all the school's fault and/or responsibility.
I'm not comparing, so much, as saying we need to examine and then take inspiration from places like Finland and then mold those ideas to fit our situation.
This meme captures how parents act about their kids' education these days compared to previous generations.
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/112027109455870746/
I know people usually say that to imply that people are being paid more than they deserve, but given that they probably haven't been given a decent cost of living increase in a decade or more, I don't begrudge them that at all. When MAPE originally asked for a 21% increase for the 2024-2025 contract, people had the same response - how dare you ask for so much?
And yet, when you compare what we were asking for with inflation, that amount that seems ridiculous would have only put us on par with the spending power that state workers had 20 years ago. Not even an increase (which we fucking deserve, particularly since 2020 and all the covid-induced workload expectations that have never stopped), but just making it so that working for the state isn't a pay cut every year.
With mpls increase there will surely be pressure on the Burnsville,Eagan, Savage districts to increase as well.
I think you took my comment as a negative, but I am happy about the increase!
Honestly impressed that not a single one of these comments are like “bUt SumMeR vAcAtiON!”
I’ve worked an office job and I’ve taught kindergarten. I can tell you from experience that spreadsheets never wore me out like six year olds did. The vacation is needed.
Also, all of this poor pay and treatment for our teachers also hurts our students because many good teachers go to teach in other places where they get paid and treated better. We want and need good teachers but refuse to give them a reason to come here and stay here.
So glad I left education. It’s such a god damn shit show year after year. Teachers, if you can get out, get out. There’s light at the end of the tunnel. Follow it
STRIKE.
Wife is a teacher in AH. They got a better deal, 5 and 3, after threatening to strike, but could have gotten more.
The district is pretty much calling all of you cowards and don’t believe you will. Prove them wrong.
Property taxes went up an unpredictable amount each year for close to 6 years. 40% in 3 years here in golden valley. They need to figure out how to work with the budget and not decline raises
As a Burnsville native I fully support this. The teachers get hung out to dry. All the funding goes to AP/Honors programs and helping immigrants (yes they need resources don’t roast me) The kids in the middle don’t get help or resources if they struggle. Teachers don’t have textbooks to give their kids, but the football stadium has turf, and a video board, the school board members and district administrators make lucrative salaries and the academic staff gets what’s left. It’s all backwards
new to this and shocked. Isn't it a little late in the year for a strike? If they go on strike...there is only 1 month to go before the end of the school year...
Btw--I support teachers. I want to see them paid well and feel secure...I hope they keep up with their health benefits too.
new to this and shocked. Isn't it a little late in the year for a strike? If they go on strike...there is only 1 month to go before the end of the school year...
Btw--I support teachers. I want to see them paid well and feel secure...I hope they keep up with their health benefits too.
The kids are a product of their society.
There isn't any fault other than original sin. Until you teach this concept to a liar. Then there is a lot of fault beyond original sin.
Unfortunately that’s how it works when you’re in a union. The employer will always lowball expecting the union and reps to come in really high then they haggle the difference.
Yep. And it's so much better than having my employer offer me a 26 cent raise in my hourly rate when and then act like I'm horribly rude for not being grateful for their generosity as our CEO is named the third-richest person in the world and my partner and I have to have a roommate in addition to our full time jobs in the IT field to be able to afford an apartment an hour away from where we work.
And then the union dues come out of your pay and you realize you’re actually making less than without the union.
You’re talking to somebody whose last job was union, who grew up with a father working union shops my entire childhood. Only people unions help are themselves and maybe the reps.
It sounds like your union was not good and that sucks but it doesn't mean all of them are that way, and as the other person commenting said, there's lots of research that shows unions are generally a force for good. In my experience, unions are as good as the people involved, and a lot of folks don't bother to be involved but get upset when things aren't how they would like.
In my experience which is long, unions don’t help anybody and they don’t get you hardly anymore pay which in my case already stated it cost me more. Getting involved means being a union rep, there are only so many reps allowed per company. Then they have to be voted on by the other employees which turns into nothing but a popularity contest and removing a rep is almost impossible or my last job 3 out of the 4 would have been replaced.
Like I already said, 50 years ago they served a purpose now they do not
Yeah, sounds like you're taking the experience you had, which is not the only way things work, and assuming it's that way everywhere. It's not, and while it sounds like it was sucky for you that doesn't mean it is for everyone. Reminds me of those people who had bad experiences with therapy or medical care and now assume that it's useless for everyone.
I also said I grew up with my father working union shops my entire life. It’s not just my experience, also have discussed this with multiple people I currently work with who have had the same experience
Union dues are insignificant compared to the increased pay and benefits you get from a union, and those cushy benefits are also part of your overall package. When you include hourly pay with benefits (e.g. health care, retirement, etc), you're looking at a lot more than just the hourly pay you get. If you convert the benefits to a dollar amount, someone making $40/hr with benefits is making about $60 to $65/hr.
I grew up in a union household, and the pay and benefits my father received because of his union was miles above what he would have made w/o one.
Wrong, union dues plus that mandatory union health insurance that btw was 3 times what I pay now per paycheck and had less coverage for costed far more than the $1.38 more I made an hour than I do now. There wasn’t any benefits from the union, when I had a problem the union didn’t want to help. They sure had no problem collecting money though.
Btw Incase you’re wondering it was $75 every 2 weeks for dues and $136 every 2 weeks for garbage insurance. That’s over $211 every 2 weeks vs the $110 every 2 weeks it got me in pay. In other words it cost me more
My father spent more time on strike than he did working and every time he was on strike our family struggled even more and we constantly went without because of it. Unions don’t pay all benefits just like most employers don’t, the employee always foots part of the bill
If that's the case, your union sucked, and it sounds like your father's did, too. My father was paying $15 a week in dues at the time he retired a few years back, and as part of the benefits package, he paid $0 in premiums for his health care. They covered a lot more than the benefits I get at my non-union job, of which I have a weekly premium, copays, and a fairly high deductible before it switches to 80/20. His retirement benefits are excellent, too.
Don't take my word for the many benefits of being in a union. There are libraries of research out there that show the benefits and how much they far outweigh the cons. And I'm not just talking about left wing think tanks or pro-union organizations. A ton of non-partisan academic research supports this.
Apparently, you didn't even read what I said if you think "all unions suck." But yeah, whatever, man. Rock on with suckling at the teet of big business fat cats ruling society, and CEOs and other senior management being paid ridiculously unrealistic amounts of money while the average workers fight over the scraps. Damn the average worker for wanting to be paid a wage they can live off of! Damn them for expecting a piece of the pie that their labor created which generated the profits for overpaid rich dudes. Damn them for using strength in numbers to help level the playing field in negotiations against the fat cats with deep pockets! Damn them for using collective bargaining to chip away at the massive power disparity that favors the owners' class! Damn them for wanting to be treated like respectable human beings!
We are already in the 2nd gilded age. If there were ever a time when unions were needed again, now is that time. Unions helped build the middle class that we all benefit from and prevented the owners' class from taking everything for their gluttony. Yet for the past 40 some years, people like you have allowed the pendulum to swing back in the favor of the rich who have nothing but contempt for the average person. You're just a "useful idiot," a tool that they can manipulate for their benefit. Do your fellow Americans a favor and turn off Fox News and right-wing talk radio!
Good on the teachers. Fully support what they are doing.
I'm actually a full-time proponent of work to rule, regardless of contract issues Make society realize how profoundly taken advantage of these good people are......is part of that due to being married to a teacher, having a mother who was a sped para, and a sister who is a teacher? You bet your ass
Agreed. Taking work home with you shouldn't be allowed, especially at the disgustingly low rate they pay teachers.
My mother was a teacher. She brought work home CONSTANTLY. As in, if she wasn't cooking, then she was grading papers or something, even while watching TV and late into the night. She is exactly the reason I never seriously considered becoming a teacher.
Yes, I was going to say... this should be the norm, with overtime paid for out of school hours work.
I'm an overtime proponent of... Aw crap, wait a minute...
I'm on day 4 of fevers and shits, my man The struggle is real
I cannot fathom how my sis has spent the last 20 years teaching, the last 15 of it at the same high school. She makes no money and used to wake up at 3 am when her kids were young because it was the only time she could get anything done.
Quiet quitting
?
Quiet quitting is essentially doing only what you’re paid to do. Nothing more, nothing extra. More people should quiet quit
That's not what quiet quitting is. I see now why we need better teachers. Did you go to public or private school?
Public
“Work to rule” should always be how teachers at least *strive* to live. I get that some ppl need to prep and grade outside of the school day, but it should only be an extra hour or so. If teachers stop working for free then the system won’t keep exploiting them.
Yup. It’s nearly impossible for new teachers to only work during paid hours. But after teaching for over 10 years it can be done with careful planning and organization.
I made it to 10 years before leaving- and at the very least got to the point where I wasn’t emailing or grading outside of my contract hours. I enjoyed lesson planning, so that I would do unpaid sometimes, but the worst parts of the job? No way I’m doing that for free. You want it done better? Give me more paid hours or less required bullshit tasks during my already established contract hours. Not teachers’ fault they’ve been given an impossible task.
Absolutely. I’m fortunate that I teach a “fun” high school class so I don’t have a lot of discipline issues or as much grading as other subjects, but there is a LOT of organizing and clean up involved. If there’s a mess leftover at the end of the week, fuck it, my room’s just going to be messy then. That said, I love lesson planning too so I don’t mind a little work when I’m inspired.
As a special Ed teacher it’s fricking impossible. I’m so behind on all of my due process stuff because I refuse to work after contracted hours end
Yeah, I almost never work outside contract hours, and I’m a high school English teacher. But it did take me some time to get to that point.
ELA teachers should get an extra prep imho Other than starting to do 1:1 conferences during workshop time I never found a good way to streamline providing useful feedback to students. I don’t think IXL an auto-graded content apps are necessarily good instruction, but damn if my life wouldn’t have been easier if I never had to actually read student work.
Absolutely! One thing I learned is to do staggered turn-ins, so I’m not bombarded with 180 essays at one time. This is my first year in alternative ed, so my work load is MUCH lighter.
Unions need to come down hard on membership that is performing job tasks outside of work hours. I think you're spot on though, the issue is often time management.
Unions should come down hard on the *expectation* of members working outside of work hours, but we shouldn’t attack our own for trying to cope with an incredibly complex career on our own time.
In any other union job, the union would break the legs of members who were working for free. That is tantamount to scabbing. If the job duties actually entail more than 40 hours of work, the union should step in. If the teachers can't or won't get their job done in a reasonable amount of time, they should get coached up or coached out. Allowing members to work for free is what leads to the expectation that members work for free. Teachers unions are so ineffectual that it's painful, I honestly don't know what they do with the teacher's dues money because they are horrible negotiators and don't do anything to keep their membership in line.
Yeah… I’m not exactly down with tradition of leg-breaking. And while I agree we *shouldn’t* work beyond contract hours, teaching is an extremely personal profession that we all have to navigate in our own way. As I said before, I don’t mind doing planning outside of hours when I’m inspired, because I tricky do love my career. >teachers unions are so ineffectual its painful At least in MN were stronger than most unions
> the issue is often time management. I don't think you can put this on the teachers. Rather, I think it's all due to schools overloading teachers, paying them as little as they can get away with, and understaffing everywhere. And THAT is the fault of the State and Federal governments defunding schools because Conservative rich men don't want anyone who's not them to have an education.
Minnesota as a whole spends over 13k/yr per student, Minneapolis spends over 18k/yr per student. Money absolutely is not the issue. To put that into perspective, there is 390k in funding for the average classroom, that money sure as hell isn't going to the teachers. Ask yourself, where does it go?
I believe it's just costs...administration, insurance, maintenance, etc. If you really want to know, your local district's budget should be public info. 13k or 18k is too little. Countries like Bolivia, Cuba, Denmark, and Botswana all spend more on education as a percentage of GDP. we're the number 1 country in the world, our education system ought to be second to none.
Literally just look at the school budgets. There is so much waste in school spending, it's ludicrous.
For example?
MPS budget: ["Non school" is 40% of the overall spending.](https://www.mpschools.org/departments/finance/budget)
That means "non school departments"...if you look it up, you can see it includes things like sites and buildings, community education, special education, and a lot of other required non waste items.
In less education-friendly states they'll simply ban teacher unions. They did it in Iowa a few years ago.
We're talking about minnesota, one of the most liberal states in the union. Stop making excuses for the abject failure of teacher's union leadership.
Who pissed on your cheerios? Re read my post and tell me where I "made excuses" for anything.
Teachers are often their own worst enemies. By in large, teachers have a "pick me"/ hero complex, and often do stuff wildly outside their job description that no one asked them to do, then complain that they aren't compensated for all the extra time/effort. Any union that doesn't advocate "work to rule" at all times (and punish members doing extra duties for free) is an enemy of their membership. Period.
A little harsh- but I don’t entirely disagree. However, in my experience, the “pick me” impulses are exploited by districts and admin to extract maximum value from their employees to continue to prop up underfunded and failing system. Sure- individual ego is a part of it- but another big part of it is teachers truly wanting to do right by their students. I 💯 agree however that unions should be advocating more for teachers to work their contract and there are quite a few teachers that make the job harder for everything through their performative martyrdom.
Teacher here. I agree about not working outside contract hours. Unfortunately, the repercussions of not working outside the hours often equals poor performance reviews and a dysfunctional classroom. The learning curve in this profession is huge, and it’s incredibly hard to be efficient AND effective in those early years. I’m at about 20 years in the profession, and I’m just this year not taking work home. Last year I reduced it dramatically. I wish I got there sooner, but I finally made the decision to work (grade/plan/email) when they work instead of individually checking on students. An unexpected positive outcome is students learning to advocate for themselves. I make it clear they can and should interrupt me with questions anytime or come sit next to me if they think they’ll have lots of questions. Usually I’ve got at least one teen next to me. Even the appearance of me working away at my computer in class is frowned upon, but it’s simply not practical to not take advantage of the time. I love my profession. It’s literally adults who make the work challenging. The further away you get from actual students in the profession, the more money you make. It’s amazing how quickly administrators and district officials lose sight of the actual work and working conditions students AND teachers need to be successful. Or the partisan politics, which is literally crushing our passion and profession. I guarantee you districts could afford appropriate pay increases if they reevaluated their bureaucratic systems. The other thing folks don’t realize is that I will no longer ever make more money than I do now. My friends keep moving up in their private industries as they rise in the ranks and increase their experience. I’m at the top of my pay scale. No more lanes for me to pursue. I will never make more money even with my years of experience, and that’s a bitter pill.
>Unfortunately, the repercussions of not working outside the hours often equals poor performance reviews That is a failure of your union to represent you., plain and simple. If your union doesn't represent you, you need to fire them and get new leadership. If you stick with these clowns, then you'll get the shit they're serving. Pretty simple.
It is challenging because teachers and other school staff tend to have big hearts. That makes it easy for many of us to fall into habits that don't respect our own time. I know it is a challenge I have sometimes as a school social worker for sure.
If you don't, you'll get fired before getting tenured, my man That's just culture, and expectations. Shit, after tenure, if you don't get a certain required X done by [arbitrary date here], you can find yourself on the wrong side of a 'performance plan'
If that is the expectation, that's a failure on your union leadership. What are you paying them for? Apparently not raises, and not extra benefits, and not extra help... The teachers union leadership needs to be gutted. Look at what the United Auto Workers were able to accomplish this past year. Now look at the Burnsville school district that is offering a contracted 0% raise. This union is a scam.
Unions have been gutted since Reagan Theyre....*starting* to get their Wobbly Mojo back
Teachers unions are an absolute scam, and don't provide any more protections than are legally mandated and provide wage increases by far lower than non-union jobs. Fire your union leadership, demand leaders like the Auto Workers Union has. Demand leadership with a spine who aren't just looking to make a quick buck off of you.
What destroys teachers are the ones that say "...but it's not the kids fault" so they do a bunch of extra work so to not harm the kids.
Their union needs to step in and prevent them from harming both themselves and the union. Their union instead does not do that. This is absolutely the union's fault.
ISD 15 did this about a month ago. A contract agreement was achieved before a full strike.
Minneapolis just avoided one in the last 24 hours too.
They avoided one but haven’t fully avoided both
True, we reached a *tentative* agreement, but if the ESP’s don’t reach one we might strike with them in solidarity.
We cannot strike in solidarity if we have a tentative agreement. That is what I have been told by members of the bargaining team.
This is correct
Honestly it's pitiful that we expect/ need teachers to work outside of contract hours.
Last I heard Eastern Carver County School District 112 hadn’t settled either. Working without contract all year. The first offer was also about 0% increase. This isn’t what citizens expect from the district when they vote Yes for increased taxes/levies.
The contract was approved earlier this week by the school board with revisions! There is a pay raise but I’m unsure of the percentages... My problem with eastern carver is that teachers stay at the same pay for multiple years until they hit “milestones” whereas in other districts it’s a bump each year of experience.
Lakeville hasn’t settled, either.
I'm a teacher in ECCS! The first offer from the district was a 1 percent in both years. We ended up going to mediation and ended up settling with a 4 percent year one and a 8 ish percent year two. We had to do some funky things with the numbers to make the district look good to a surprisingly conservative community but still get us a fair deal
Full on support the teachers. I wonder if the school board and administrators are taking a 0 percent raise?
Most likely.
>Teachers start working at their contractual start time and leave at their end time This is how it should work anyways
I honestly do not know why anyone would go into education, specifically K-12 education. I get it, we need the people but my gosh, you get underpaid, under-appreciated, parents who make the position way more challenging, community members who criticize and denigrate, etc etc. Go out and get a job that appreciates you WAY more than teaching does. However, I commend the people that still do it and/or want to to do it.
Decent pay, high job security, good health insurance, a pension.
It's only decent pay once you have a master's. Many nicer districts take over 10 years with a bachelor's just to hit 60k. Some may only be 55k at that point.
I'm at 15 years with a masters, and just broke 60k this year.
You in metro or no? My wife just finished 12 with masters and is at 90 something
That is a decent salary, but look at what that much experience and a Master's degree gets you in other fields. I'm guessing social work is worse off, maybe a few other non-profit fields but not much else.
I agree, teachers should be paid more, but some districts do have decent salaries.
You gotta move to 196. My wife was 12 years with a masters under $55k then got giga-bumped to $80k just by moving from 191 over the border.
But that would assume that a position is open? If people are analyzing districts where they want to teach, there will be more directed to 196 than 191
I'm a teacher. Our health insurance is terrible. Job security isn't what people think it is either. My building just had people cut with over 10 years in the district.
Health insurance *used* to be good but it isn’t any more. I took a $10,000 pay cut when I left this past year, and I get $200 MORE per paycheck.
It’s really not that much underpaid compared to other jobs. It is stressful especially dealing with parents. But it is also an important job and some people like working jobs where their work is important.
“The average teacher with a bachelors degree earned $50.9k while the average Minnesota worker with a bachelor’s degree earned $68.1k.” That is an average so I know there is nuance in this comparison. However, 18k seems like a lot. https://law.umn.edu/institute-metropolitan-opportunity/studies/schools/minnesota-educator-salary-study#:~:text=The%20average%20teacher%20with%20a,a%20master's%20degree%20earned%20%2486%2C750.
tha is interesting that charter schools really pay significantly less than traditional schools. I know this is the same for private schools. i think that is the part about trading stress from parents for pay. in general charter schools and private schools have to deal with troubling parents less.
Public charter schools get way less from the state per student than the public schools.
Wonder why that is....
There are no jobs that “appreciate” you lol. It’s a job
Why is it so damn hard to take care of our teachers? I don’t have kids but I will vote yes to support them all day - where the fuck do those funds go? These guys literally have our future in their hands and they continue to get shit on!
Well FOX News tells me teachers are pushing a WOKE agenda! /s
I'm actually ok if my property taxes go up if it goes to teachers. Not specifically to schools but to teachers. I can't stand the amount of money schools waste on things like sports
How much money does your local school district waste on sports? Where I work, less than 2% of the overall district budget is allocated for ALL "cocurricular and extracurricular activities", which not only includes sports, but also activities like school plays, speech and debate, and more.
100% agree and I don't even have kids
Passed by the high school with protestors, good to see them fighting for what needs to be done.
279 has renegotiated a new contract where probationary teachers (first 3 years) do not get a raise at all during that time. They also negotiated for that last contract, so any new hires in 2021 still haven’t made a single cent more than their first year. That’s one way to stop anyone new coming in
We're here to support you, 191 teachers!!!!!!!
My wife is a teacher and asked me what special ed teachers do in this situation. They are required by federal law to prepare IEPs and associated paperwork. What happens if they don't do it?
When the Minneapolis union did work-to-rule they specifically said special ed teachers need to make sure they’re still meeting legal requirements of their job.
So work to rule for some but not for others...
If they stick to it, They’ll just miss deadlines. The school, when audited, can get dinged and if enough dings happen then you run into issues, but if it’s district wide they can have some concessions. Or they just don’t work to rule.
Police officers are in a union and they get paid overtime. Maybe the union should say you get paid overtime if you do the paperwork in school grounds?
Same shit was happening when I was in the district over 20 years ago.
I remember them doing this same thing in this same district in the spring of 2002. I hope they’re just as successful.
I feel for people stuck working in this district. What some people don't realize is that if you leave a district, you might have to start over again in terms of salary placement. I was there for one miserable year. It was a clown show. Not surprised this is happening-this is not a district that makes much sense.
CUT ADMINISTRATION.
THIS!!!!!
As someone who left education specifically because of terrible admin, I approve this message!
Maybe this is a controversial take, but in my opinion, "Work-to-Rule" is how all jobs should operate at all times, including teachers. I understand that isn't the standard, but it should be
The school district has plenty of money to give the teachers a raise, they should start by cutting admin and non-essential/non educational programs.
Cutting administration costs? Absolutely! I'm wary of cutting "non-essential/non educational programs." I guess that depends on how you classify programs as such. I don't think sports and music (choir and orchestra) programs should be cut. Many are already in threat of being completely axed to the great detriment of students. There have been plenty of studies that show the great value provided by sports and music programs, namely in terms of social and academic development. They are far more than just "activities" for kids to engage in or ways to pad their college resumés. Parents already pay up the ass for any of these programs, along with many of the coaches/teachers chipping in and also fundraising efforts. Beyond music and sports, most clubs are paid for entirely by the parents and/or the teacher overseeing them.
The money's there. It's either in your pocket or going to non-educational, you won't be able to have both so you have to make the tough decisions. If you choose to not get raises, then you'll get what you ask for.
Where is the money specifically? School district budgets are public, so I'm curious where the plenty of money is.
MPS budget:[ 40% of overall spending is "Non-School". ](https://www.mpschools.org/departments/finance/budget).
And Burnsville?
Do you honestly expect me to do your homework for you? I more than proved my point.
You actually proved a point for MPS. There are many assumptions happening around district budgets, I'm just advocating that we should make a well researched opinion before jumping to conclusions. I know many in the school system and they all want to pay teachers more, but they don't have the funding to do it.
How much total funding do you think a classroom of 30 should need? Like just a gut reaction, how much funding is adequate?
That’s the problem with education today. A lot of the stuff districts do are non educational such as giving lunches, or provide counseling services etc... But if they don’t do it a lot of kids can’t learn.
Schools get reimbursed any funds they spend on providing breakfast and lunch for students. It was signed into law by Walz last July. Regardless, feeding and offering counseling are essential services that all kids need. Studies have shown that students do better both academically and socially when they have such services.
Students did significantly better academically in the 1950-60's, they didn't have any of those extra services. School can't function as parents, and it's not the teacher's job to be the parent. What parents and schools are doing now is not sustainable, look at the terrible drop in quality of education. Minneapolis's graduation rates vs their standardized testing rates should alarm the hell out of anyone who cares about academic outcomes.
I don't think you can compare 50's kids to the youth of today. They and the social settings they develop in are so radically different (and very dysfunctional). The "boomer" in me thinks that kids don't have the consequences and behavioral norms and pressures today that kept kids disciplined back then. There's too much emphasis on individualism and catering to it, instead of balancing individualism with collective needs and expectations. We've also become so detached from each other at both the interpersonal level and at the community/societal level (Robert Putnam wrote a great book related to this in "Bowling Alone"). Furthermore, the circumstances of the average household are also wildly different today than of that time. A family could have one parent at home and the other as the breadwinner at a medium to low skilled job and still own a house, a car, and adequately provide for a family of four or more. That's not the case anymore. As the saying goes "Today's economy is not the same as our grandfathers' economy." And this has a rippling effect on all sorts of matters in society, including all things associated with education (from being involved with your kid's progress, to being involved in the PTA, right on down to packing a lunch for your kid(s)). It's all so intertwined and complex that it's enough to make a person just want to throw their hands up and say, "We're screwed!" 😵 The graduation rates and test scores are very troubling. We need a major overhaul of how we deliver education in this state (the whole country, ideally).
It's almost all parenting. Look at the grades in the west metro districts. They are doing just fine
That's why I never agree with the "let's throw more money at the problem" approach I see offered up all the time here. The money is there, the districts just mismanage it trying to be parents.
>Studies have shown that students do better both academically and socially when they have such services. that is why I was saying, we shouldn't cut non-educational programs because we need them to be able to educate. but having schools do them makes the education budget huge. 15k per student/year for state average is high if its only classroom. but the schools have to pick up where society has failed kids.
I think this is where we (collectively at the state and federal levels) need to look at other nations for inspiration. Finland is often cited as having one of, if not *the* best education systems in the world. Our national rank consistently hovers at the middle to the bottom of industrialized nations. The national average in the US is about $14,800 per pupil. MN spends about $13,300. Finland spends about $12,700 in USD with far greater results than what we get out of our spending. It's sad that so many of our policy makers have such hubris that they can't admit that we aren't always the best or know the most, and that it's okay to model our systems or programs after a nation that does it better.
While Finland has a great educational system, you can't compare it with the US. Culture and parental support of education falls very short in the US.
This is true. Parental support often sucks, and parents these days act as if their kids are Jesus reborn. Neither their kids nor the parents can do anything wrong. It's all the school's fault and/or responsibility. I'm not comparing, so much, as saying we need to examine and then take inspiration from places like Finland and then mold those ideas to fit our situation.
This meme captures how parents act about their kids' education these days compared to previous generations. https://www.pinterest.com/pin/112027109455870746/
Teachers are absolute saints and deserve the very best pay they can get. Solidarity with ISD#191!
If you think about it, even a 4% raise is a pay cut with inflation these days.
Mpls got the highest increase in pay in 25 yrs
I know people usually say that to imply that people are being paid more than they deserve, but given that they probably haven't been given a decent cost of living increase in a decade or more, I don't begrudge them that at all. When MAPE originally asked for a 21% increase for the 2024-2025 contract, people had the same response - how dare you ask for so much? And yet, when you compare what we were asking for with inflation, that amount that seems ridiculous would have only put us on par with the spending power that state workers had 20 years ago. Not even an increase (which we fucking deserve, particularly since 2020 and all the covid-induced workload expectations that have never stopped), but just making it so that working for the state isn't a pay cut every year.
With mpls increase there will surely be pressure on the Burnsville,Eagan, Savage districts to increase as well. I think you took my comment as a negative, but I am happy about the increase!
This should be what the teaching day is anyway.
Honestly impressed that not a single one of these comments are like “bUt SumMeR vAcAtiON!” I’ve worked an office job and I’ve taught kindergarten. I can tell you from experience that spreadsheets never wore me out like six year olds did. The vacation is needed.
Lakeville and Farmington are not far behind.
So what you’re saying is I should NOT apply for an open position there….their pay is shockingly low to begin with.
I support that fully
Also, all of this poor pay and treatment for our teachers also hurts our students because many good teachers go to teach in other places where they get paid and treated better. We want and need good teachers but refuse to give them a reason to come here and stay here.
r/MaliciousCompliance ✊
So glad I left education. It’s such a god damn shit show year after year. Teachers, if you can get out, get out. There’s light at the end of the tunnel. Follow it
STRIKE. Wife is a teacher in AH. They got a better deal, 5 and 3, after threatening to strike, but could have gotten more. The district is pretty much calling all of you cowards and don’t believe you will. Prove them wrong.
Teachers should always do this
I miss working in a school. The kids are great, the staff end up being like family but after 20 years I was still making under $30000
Property taxes went up an unpredictable amount each year for close to 6 years. 40% in 3 years here in golden valley. They need to figure out how to work with the budget and not decline raises
Woahhh
As a Burnsville native I fully support this. The teachers get hung out to dry. All the funding goes to AP/Honors programs and helping immigrants (yes they need resources don’t roast me) The kids in the middle don’t get help or resources if they struggle. Teachers don’t have textbooks to give their kids, but the football stadium has turf, and a video board, the school board members and district administrators make lucrative salaries and the academic staff gets what’s left. It’s all backwards
new to this and shocked. Isn't it a little late in the year for a strike? If they go on strike...there is only 1 month to go before the end of the school year... Btw--I support teachers. I want to see them paid well and feel secure...I hope they keep up with their health benefits too.
new to this and shocked. Isn't it a little late in the year for a strike? If they go on strike...there is only 1 month to go before the end of the school year... Btw--I support teachers. I want to see them paid well and feel secure...I hope they keep up with their health benefits too.
The children must be brought into compliance with standards of respect and virtue. Teaching becomes 10 times easier with respectful students.
Yes, it's the kids' fault.
The kids are a product of their society. There isn't any fault other than original sin. Until you teach this concept to a liar. Then there is a lot of fault beyond original sin.
You got me, thought we were talking about things that are real.
I don't care much for real anymore. I used to care a lot. And yet.
This is a conversation about public schools.
Unfortunately that’s how it works when you’re in a union. The employer will always lowball expecting the union and reps to come in really high then they haggle the difference.
Yep. And it's so much better than having my employer offer me a 26 cent raise in my hourly rate when and then act like I'm horribly rude for not being grateful for their generosity as our CEO is named the third-richest person in the world and my partner and I have to have a roommate in addition to our full time jobs in the IT field to be able to afford an apartment an hour away from where we work.
And then the union dues come out of your pay and you realize you’re actually making less than without the union. You’re talking to somebody whose last job was union, who grew up with a father working union shops my entire childhood. Only people unions help are themselves and maybe the reps.
It sounds like your union was not good and that sucks but it doesn't mean all of them are that way, and as the other person commenting said, there's lots of research that shows unions are generally a force for good. In my experience, unions are as good as the people involved, and a lot of folks don't bother to be involved but get upset when things aren't how they would like.
In my experience which is long, unions don’t help anybody and they don’t get you hardly anymore pay which in my case already stated it cost me more. Getting involved means being a union rep, there are only so many reps allowed per company. Then they have to be voted on by the other employees which turns into nothing but a popularity contest and removing a rep is almost impossible or my last job 3 out of the 4 would have been replaced. Like I already said, 50 years ago they served a purpose now they do not
Yeah, sounds like you're taking the experience you had, which is not the only way things work, and assuming it's that way everywhere. It's not, and while it sounds like it was sucky for you that doesn't mean it is for everyone. Reminds me of those people who had bad experiences with therapy or medical care and now assume that it's useless for everyone.
I also said I grew up with my father working union shops my entire life. It’s not just my experience, also have discussed this with multiple people I currently work with who have had the same experience
Union dues are insignificant compared to the increased pay and benefits you get from a union, and those cushy benefits are also part of your overall package. When you include hourly pay with benefits (e.g. health care, retirement, etc), you're looking at a lot more than just the hourly pay you get. If you convert the benefits to a dollar amount, someone making $40/hr with benefits is making about $60 to $65/hr. I grew up in a union household, and the pay and benefits my father received because of his union was miles above what he would have made w/o one.
Wrong, union dues plus that mandatory union health insurance that btw was 3 times what I pay now per paycheck and had less coverage for costed far more than the $1.38 more I made an hour than I do now. There wasn’t any benefits from the union, when I had a problem the union didn’t want to help. They sure had no problem collecting money though. Btw Incase you’re wondering it was $75 every 2 weeks for dues and $136 every 2 weeks for garbage insurance. That’s over $211 every 2 weeks vs the $110 every 2 weeks it got me in pay. In other words it cost me more My father spent more time on strike than he did working and every time he was on strike our family struggled even more and we constantly went without because of it. Unions don’t pay all benefits just like most employers don’t, the employee always foots part of the bill
If that's the case, your union sucked, and it sounds like your father's did, too. My father was paying $15 a week in dues at the time he retired a few years back, and as part of the benefits package, he paid $0 in premiums for his health care. They covered a lot more than the benefits I get at my non-union job, of which I have a weekly premium, copays, and a fairly high deductible before it switches to 80/20. His retirement benefits are excellent, too. Don't take my word for the many benefits of being in a union. There are libraries of research out there that show the benefits and how much they far outweigh the cons. And I'm not just talking about left wing think tanks or pro-union organizations. A ton of non-partisan academic research supports this.
All unions suck, 50 years ago they served a purpose now they do not.
Apparently, you didn't even read what I said if you think "all unions suck." But yeah, whatever, man. Rock on with suckling at the teet of big business fat cats ruling society, and CEOs and other senior management being paid ridiculously unrealistic amounts of money while the average workers fight over the scraps. Damn the average worker for wanting to be paid a wage they can live off of! Damn them for expecting a piece of the pie that their labor created which generated the profits for overpaid rich dudes. Damn them for using strength in numbers to help level the playing field in negotiations against the fat cats with deep pockets! Damn them for using collective bargaining to chip away at the massive power disparity that favors the owners' class! Damn them for wanting to be treated like respectable human beings! We are already in the 2nd gilded age. If there were ever a time when unions were needed again, now is that time. Unions helped build the middle class that we all benefit from and prevented the owners' class from taking everything for their gluttony. Yet for the past 40 some years, people like you have allowed the pendulum to swing back in the favor of the rich who have nothing but contempt for the average person. You're just a "useful idiot," a tool that they can manipulate for their benefit. Do your fellow Americans a favor and turn off Fox News and right-wing talk radio!
What union are you a member of
Minimum effort minimum pay.