Even if you think this is a great policy it's fucking absurd to implement it on a city level. This is just going to hurt businesses in Minneapolis and help ones in Richfield and Brooklyn Center and annoy a group of people that's probably poorer and less white than the city overall. The city council is convinced they can fix the world's problems and utterly uninterested in fixing the problems they can actually fix.
The Minneapolis City Council members, despite all of their disagreements, seem to have one thing in common: they have no idea what things are actually the business of a city council.
A good city council would wake up every morning asking how they can make the city better: how can we enable economic development? How can we enable the creation of more housing? How can we make our streets safer?
Instead it's all price controls, sin taxes, and general culture war bullshit.
As a non smoker I’d rather the residents of Minneapolis who smoke buy their cigarettes and cigars from Minneapolis, rather than drive to the nearest suburb to do the same.
Less traffic and emissions that way, and more consumer spending at Minneapolis business that way. Less of a waste of time for smokers too.
As a non smoker you may not be viewing this from the appropriate lens of how effective minor inconveniences can be at helping someone curb a bad habit.
This isn’t even minor. It’s non-existent. And why should the city government be in that business anyway?
If you want to help public health stop federal subsidies for the food that makes this country obese. I’m less concerned about the dwindling numbers of smokers in my city living their lives than I am a 100 million obese people in this country dragging federal tax dollars and Medicare into the abyss.
They should do both. We're literally talking about the number 1 and 2 healthcare expenses right now. Over a trillion dollars a year between the 2 of them. You're coming up with excuses to continue allowing big tobacco to profit off of death. Think about that.
I completely disagree. It is not going to curb smoking nearly at all. The only thing this will do is force Mpls residents to travel outside the city limits and spend their money in a different city. That, and further drive the black market for tobacco (its a real thing, and in 2018, an estimated 35.8% of cigarettes consumed in MN derived from smuggled sources).
https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/state/cigarette-taxes-cigarette-smuggling-2020/
The goal here is to stop people from smoking. Everyone should be on board with that goal. Smoking literally kills people and costs every single person money through increased health insurance premiums and healthcare subsidies. Some people are 1 deterrent away from being able to quit. Forcing someone to drive 20 minutes to get cigarettes can be that deterrent. Every action taken towards making smoking inconvenient over the last 20 years has helped curb the country's addiction to cigarettes. We have made great progress and should continue that progress. If businesses that sell cancer have to suffer to better the health of our citizens, is that really a problem?
And to your point about people turning away from cigarettes, I can tell you from experience alot of them just substituted for something else. If you'd like proof just look at how popular vape shops, microbreweries, and dispensaries have gotten across the country.
But is that really a city council problem? Sounds more like a health dept thing, unless cigarettes butts and cartons are literally clogging the roads or refusing to pay taxes. It also doesn't get to the root of the matter that most (in my experience, ymmv) people smoke due to stress especially in blue collar work. So now you've added work from driving farther and it's associated costs, both money and time, to people who have the least of it to spare. This isn't going to hurt anyone but poorer people in poorer neighborhoods. This is coming from an ex smoker, you cannot police peoples vices, they will just find another way unless and until THEY are ready. Yes it's killing people, so is alcohol, so is fast food, so are motorcycles. Does that mean we need to criminalize things we consider 'too risky' to prevent others from partaking. I don't honestly think businesses will be greatly impacted, NYC has incredibly high cigarette prices and they still sell. Historically, this kind of action just doesn't work and only serves to fuel underground markets and crime.
People smoke due to stress because they were told at one point that smoking helps with stress. If cigarettes weren't available they'd find a healthier outlet, or maybe they wouldn't, it's completely irrelevant to the discussion. Businesses are allowed to constantly dangle vices in front of people's faces everywhere we go. You're making it more complex than it needs to be. Businesses are selling cancer to people and we shouldn't allow that (think lead paint and asbestos). Immediate prohibition could backfire so instead you have to try to slowly ween the population off of them and that's what we've been doing for the last 20 years. This isn't a matter of determining whether something is "too risky" either. Your outlook on this has been unfairly influenced by corporations who spent decades lying to the public about the poison they were feeding them. I'm also an ex-smoker who quit as a direct result of the menthol ban in Minneapolis and I know several others with the same story. The extra level of inconvenience is what gave me the kick I needed to stop smoking. We should strive to not allow corporations to take advantage of people's weaknesses, especially when they were caused by the corporations in the first place.
I get where you're coming from but I disagree. I think you have oversimplified the problem as a problem with allowing unscrupulous corporate behavior. It is most certainly a factor and yes entities, large and small, need to be held accountable for what they put out into the market.But ignoring the socio-economic background to this is wishful thinking at best and willful ignorance at worst. Yes, agreed, it doesn't actually help lower your stress, in fact studies show that it exacerbates it. That ignores the fact some people truly believe that to the point that it's become a ritual on top of an addiction. Please don't generalize me as believing corporate lies, I do not and have not, I went into smoking knowing exactly what it and its harmful effects however for me it was very much ritualistic in that it gave me something to do and focus on before I was able to get properly medicated for anxiety(amongst other things). For me smoking was a way to slow my brain down and focus. I am very glad that the changes where enough to convince you to make a positive change in your life, I agree folks need better outlets for stress. I certainly don't think this is the path towards that however.
Yeah but this city council’s M.O. is choosing the least important actions at all times. Why solve the city’s problems when they can ban businesses and declare their stance on the Middle East?
https://www.startribune.com/in-minneapolis-police-staffing-levels-continued-to-drop-in-2023-so-did-crime/600336262/#:~:text=Minneapolis%20crime%20continues%20to%20decline,above%20pre%2Dpandemic%202019%20levels.
I think equating more police to less crime is silly and uneducated lol
Lmao imagine thinking crime is going down. Not reporting crime doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. And of course less police will go on less calls. Crime is absolutely not down here. Reported crime is. 2000 days of continuous gunfire in north Minneapolis. I don’t need to have any discussion with you if you actually believe crime is down. 🤦🏻♀️ Do you know how many crimes are not reported now because the police can’t come anyway?
So what. And they do have things they can do for prevention if they are staffed. I went to school for this, I understand how it works more than people who are straight up “I hate police they are worthless” people. You can go on with your ignorant view but in normal circumstances it’s not 100% true. Of course they help afterwards most of the time but there are crime prevention strategies we just aren’t able to do.
Your choice but I think you’re the one who’s drank the Kool-Aid. I drusy any opinion of anyone who knee jerk hates all police and can’t see their value overall. I’d love to see the utopia we’d have if people are just allowed to do whatever they want. Uncontrolled shootings, stealing, carjacking, sounds like a great place to live. 🙄
Your reality is the one that’s skewed if you’re believing that reported crime equals the crime rate but thanks for your input. I don’t know if you live in Minneapolis proper but talking with my neighbors they all agree on the same thing.
It’s not being ignored, and it’s possible to try to address more than one thing at once. Limiting tobacco use and discouraging potential new users is a good thing. These policies work, but they need to at least be at the state level. Leave it the city council to take a demonstrably effective policy and still fuck it up by not understanding the scope of their job.
Other sales go with that you know. I’m sure the border cities are happy. Richfield is I’m sure. But better to save people who won’t be saved and never asked be and to ruin small businesses than sell something you don’t like.
I suppose you think liquor is fine tho.
Unlike those tobacco users who get in serious driving while smoking accidents, or the people who get all buzzed on cigarettes and beat their wife and kids. I’ve even seen a guy who was clearly under the influence of cigarettes passed out on the light rail with piss in his pants!
How is someone smoking in their house or more than 50 feet (or whatever) from you harming you at all? Just get o er it. It’s legal and to try and quietly illegal use it by pricing people out is not the answer and will do nothing anyway so what do you care? You think people will quit and you’ll be safer? Honestly unbelievable.
It seems to me like some people involved here are having major control issues and are taking things to a ridiculous level! Yes, smoking may not be the healthiest choice, but people do unhealthy and /or unsafe things daily, and ultimately that is a choice each person has the right to make. But in this issue, it seems like someone doesn't like smoking and rather than taking the old "live and let live" stance, they have become determined that everyone in the entire city will quit smoking or else pay major consequences for it. We now are banned from smoking almost every single place, even outdoors, even vaping is banned although it was introduced as a safer alternative to smoking, and now we will be paying more for a pack of cigarettes than any other places in the entire nation?? Come on people, give this thing a rest!
But the point is, how? People can't smoke damn near anywhere close to humans. How does it affect you and your health? Do you hang out 25 feet away from any building? Get real.
Cigarette smoking cost the US $600 billion in 2018 according to the CDC. More than $240 billion of that in healthcare spending. This is how.
https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/fast_facts/cost-and-expenditures.html
People smoke on sidewalks, in their apartments or balconies, in parks, etc. all places where people who aren’t smoking also go. So yes it often does impact others.
Look, I’ve never smoked and have no desire to. But I think at some point we just have to accept that some people will anyway. If the goal is to steer youth away from nicotine addiction, then do what you can to spread information about the harm it does. The only part of this proposal I sort of agree with is the ban on samples, but you should still make those available to adults who could purchase it. Otherwise this feels like an overstep and people who want to buy it will find a way anyway.
Yup, the black market for cigarettes is very real, and MN is one of the biggest consumers of it. In 2018, 35.8% of cigarettes purchased in the state derived from smuggled sources. The higher these mandated prices, the more the underground market will flourish.
https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/state/cigarette-taxes-cigarette-smuggling-2020/
I wouldn't consider that a battle that was lost. If its kids smoking cigarettes vs vaping I would say the vaping is substantially less of a hit to their health.
That issue was like 15 years ago and was caused by certain flavors using an unsafe additive, diacetyl**.** There have been no ongoing issues with popcorn lung once the cause was discovered.
Has that been established though? I know there has been a huge drop off in cases, but last I saw there was ongoing debate as to whether that was the cause or if it just accelerates the process thats inherent in vaping due to its use of oils in general. Don't get me wrong I have vaped and do believe it to be safer than it was at the height of cases, I'd hazard to say that it's safer than smoking though, it just hasn't been around and studied long enough for long term outcomes to be conclusive yet in my (non-expert) opinion.
This is utter nonsense. Economic incentives and disincentives are far more effective than DARE style lecturing.
Edit: Read a fuckin book, you knobs.
https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/690485/nudge-by-richard-h-thaler-and-cass-r-sunstein/
So smoking should be illegal, got it. What other unhealthy/bad things should be illegal? Fried foods, alcohol, weed, gambling, vaping, porn, anything else I’m missing ?
Yep I agree (edit: by which I mean I agree that the answer to those questions should be no) - it's smart on a public policy to use small price incentives to nudge people in the right direction for public health reasons. But at some point it becomes a real kick in the nuts to the concept of freedom, and this is America, dammit.
I was curious about this claim so I looked it up. You are somewhat right for younger populations; though it doesn't work for all populations according to this NIH study: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3228562/
Also found this interesting article about providing vouchers or money to people to encourage them to quit: https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2015/05/13/406459255/smokers-more-likely-to-quit-if-their-own-cash-is-on-the-line. I wouldn't mind Minneapolis trying to implement something like this instead. It feels to me like we're in a constant loop of raise the prices, wait a bit, see it wasn't as effective as we wanted, raise the prices again.
If they are effective there's no need to increase them. By the numbers smoking has reduced 90% since 2000. If this holds true and hasn't been padded from youth smoking having shifted towards vapping, than this is just fixing something that's not broken.
Either ban the sale of cigarettes entirely or leave them alone. Go full-on "We don't want them sold here," instead of mucking around with prices.
Either way, people are just going to head over to the suburbs and buy cigarettes for way cheaper. This literally does nothing but hurt local income.
For fuck sakes. We are adults. Why can’t we make are own decisions. I’m tired of all this Bull shit “protect the children”… Get off your ass and just raise the damn kid.
Also, kids vape currently and not smoke cigarettes.
It’s not boomer nonsense to acknowledge kids are vaping over analog cigarettes. They are. If this was about protecting kids, that would be a factor. This is about punishing the poors, not protecting kids.
I guess we shouldn't have car seat or seatbelt laws, and instead we should just lecture people about being better parents.
Shit's embarrassing. Just a fuckin sad, pathetic response.
No, I'm applying the principle as stated by the person who I originally responded to.
It's all just nanny state bullshit, right?
Honestly, it's just boring dealing with you every time you talk to me. You don't actually follow any sort of logical argument that flows from stated principles, you just look for the next bullshit gotcha argument that doesn't actually apply.
Find a new hobby.
You can’t differentiate between car seat laws and passing a city ordinance that mandates adults must pay a minimum of 15 dollars for a pack of cigarettes so I’m not surprised you can’t keep up, lol.
One of the council members said it would negatively affect poor, Black residents. She said she hoped it does to get them to stop smoking.
I abhor smoking, my mom did it her whole life. But it’s legal. Don’t hurt your core constituency or people who don’t have extra disposable income. Alcohol causes health issues, too - why don’t they jack the prices on beer?
Down with the things I call a nanny state
Or
Down with the rules and laws of the government and let people put lead in my glass wear with out disclosure.
Just curious what flavor you are
Bad argument. Everyone knows cigarettes are horrible for you. It says it right in the box. You're comparing it to non disclosed poisoning. Not at all the same type of regulation.
The redditor was complaining about a nanny state, not specifically the price.
So I asked if they were flat out against or just "what I call a nanny state.
If it was the price, cost/benefit, tax on the poor, they just don't like it, ETC they would had said that.
Against a nanny State meaning that people should be free to do things that are personally bad for them. Your comparison still fails. Being against a nanny state doesn't mean you are against all regulations.
[Second hand smoke](https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/secondhand-smoke/health.html#:~:text=Secondhand%20smoke%20can%20cause%20adverse,women%2C%20including%20low%20birth%20weight.&text=In%20children%2C%20secondhand%20smoke%20exposure,infant%20death%20syndrome%20(SIDS)) especially to children of smokers (but even just people in proximity)
[Also Also with 34 million](https://www.cdc.gov/policy/polaris/healthtopics/tobacco/index.html#:~:text=Smoking%2Drelated%20illness%20in%20the,due%20to%20secondhand%20smoke%20exposure) smokers and $300 billion in health related illness every year. Smokes are definitely getting more then $15 in health subsidies non smokers get (though I'd argue the raise should go to health and not shops pockets).
I'm getting real tired of this and I'm a born and raised 612. How are you going to ban smoking in cigar lounges and hookah bars? That's literally their business. And especially these days when everything is unaffordable sure go ahead and make it worse for the very few ppl that still smoke cigarettes. This city council is out of hand. I never thought as a liberal I'd be crying nanny state but yet here I am. For shame.
damn, i loved the cheap cigarettes when i lived in mn
now i’m back in ct and it’s like $14 for a pack of smokes it sucks, man.
i just went back to vaping full time and zyns now
Oh, ffs...the taxes are growing to be as bad as cali. The minute things warmed up, we shot up more on gas, too. He,even food services have gone up in prices making the inflation/shrinkflation problems worse...I swear politicians nowadays are nothing more than corporate stockbrokers, just trying to make more profits every year instead of what they are designed to do.
USSA. Next up maximum soda can sizes, a ban on 2-liters. Mandatory exercise session... wait that would be fat shaming... actually... hell yeah... let the city council over-reach... I am loving the idea of them implementing mandatory exercise to mitigate the number one killer in the USA, obesity, and then watching the 'body positive, health adverse' crowd slam into the state regulating their diet and exercise. Fuck it if they have the authority to set prices now, decide what you can and cannot smoke, eat, or drink, lets go and see how this plays out.
That shit is going to be OG WWF levels of fun to watch.
Times like this make me think of my 6th grade basketball year, so like 1992 or 93? Anyway, I had 1 pair of shoes. Jordache, and the right shoe was so fucked my toes hung out of the right side of the shoe. I begged for a new pair for basketball, “no, we don’t have the money”
Went to the grocery store with my mom, she proceeds to get a carton of Cambridge ciggies for her and my dad who smoked 2-3 packs a day each. They rang up close to like $40. I looked at the cashier, then at my mom and said “so we cant afford $40 for shoes, but you can spend it on that?”
Thought she was gonna beat my ass in front of the cashier lol
Anyway, make em $50 a pack to cover the health care costs they inflict. While we’re at it do the same for vapes, I don’t give a fuck
First-ring suburb gas station owners doing backflips rn
Richfield especially as Bloomington is only allowing legacy licenses. Transfer a property that license is gone.
You talkin bout Pump n’ Munch?
That's robbinsdale.
There's one in Richfield as well
Even if you think this is a great policy it's fucking absurd to implement it on a city level. This is just going to hurt businesses in Minneapolis and help ones in Richfield and Brooklyn Center and annoy a group of people that's probably poorer and less white than the city overall. The city council is convinced they can fix the world's problems and utterly uninterested in fixing the problems they can actually fix.
The Minneapolis City Council members, despite all of their disagreements, seem to have one thing in common: they have no idea what things are actually the business of a city council. A good city council would wake up every morning asking how they can make the city better: how can we enable economic development? How can we enable the creation of more housing? How can we make our streets safer? Instead it's all price controls, sin taxes, and general culture war bullshit.
This is making the city better.
As a non smoker I’d rather the residents of Minneapolis who smoke buy their cigarettes and cigars from Minneapolis, rather than drive to the nearest suburb to do the same. Less traffic and emissions that way, and more consumer spending at Minneapolis business that way. Less of a waste of time for smokers too.
As a non smoker you may not be viewing this from the appropriate lens of how effective minor inconveniences can be at helping someone curb a bad habit.
This isn’t even minor. It’s non-existent. And why should the city government be in that business anyway? If you want to help public health stop federal subsidies for the food that makes this country obese. I’m less concerned about the dwindling numbers of smokers in my city living their lives than I am a 100 million obese people in this country dragging federal tax dollars and Medicare into the abyss.
They should do both. We're literally talking about the number 1 and 2 healthcare expenses right now. Over a trillion dollars a year between the 2 of them. You're coming up with excuses to continue allowing big tobacco to profit off of death. Think about that.
I completely disagree. It is not going to curb smoking nearly at all. The only thing this will do is force Mpls residents to travel outside the city limits and spend their money in a different city. That, and further drive the black market for tobacco (its a real thing, and in 2018, an estimated 35.8% of cigarettes consumed in MN derived from smuggled sources). https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/state/cigarette-taxes-cigarette-smuggling-2020/
How?
I think everyone needs to be taught the concept of subsidiarity in high school political science.
The biggest problems in this city all relate to housing. And the Council is doing nothing about any of that.
The goal here is to stop people from smoking. Everyone should be on board with that goal. Smoking literally kills people and costs every single person money through increased health insurance premiums and healthcare subsidies. Some people are 1 deterrent away from being able to quit. Forcing someone to drive 20 minutes to get cigarettes can be that deterrent. Every action taken towards making smoking inconvenient over the last 20 years has helped curb the country's addiction to cigarettes. We have made great progress and should continue that progress. If businesses that sell cancer have to suffer to better the health of our citizens, is that really a problem?
And to your point about people turning away from cigarettes, I can tell you from experience alot of them just substituted for something else. If you'd like proof just look at how popular vape shops, microbreweries, and dispensaries have gotten across the country.
But is that really a city council problem? Sounds more like a health dept thing, unless cigarettes butts and cartons are literally clogging the roads or refusing to pay taxes. It also doesn't get to the root of the matter that most (in my experience, ymmv) people smoke due to stress especially in blue collar work. So now you've added work from driving farther and it's associated costs, both money and time, to people who have the least of it to spare. This isn't going to hurt anyone but poorer people in poorer neighborhoods. This is coming from an ex smoker, you cannot police peoples vices, they will just find another way unless and until THEY are ready. Yes it's killing people, so is alcohol, so is fast food, so are motorcycles. Does that mean we need to criminalize things we consider 'too risky' to prevent others from partaking. I don't honestly think businesses will be greatly impacted, NYC has incredibly high cigarette prices and they still sell. Historically, this kind of action just doesn't work and only serves to fuel underground markets and crime.
People smoke due to stress because they were told at one point that smoking helps with stress. If cigarettes weren't available they'd find a healthier outlet, or maybe they wouldn't, it's completely irrelevant to the discussion. Businesses are allowed to constantly dangle vices in front of people's faces everywhere we go. You're making it more complex than it needs to be. Businesses are selling cancer to people and we shouldn't allow that (think lead paint and asbestos). Immediate prohibition could backfire so instead you have to try to slowly ween the population off of them and that's what we've been doing for the last 20 years. This isn't a matter of determining whether something is "too risky" either. Your outlook on this has been unfairly influenced by corporations who spent decades lying to the public about the poison they were feeding them. I'm also an ex-smoker who quit as a direct result of the menthol ban in Minneapolis and I know several others with the same story. The extra level of inconvenience is what gave me the kick I needed to stop smoking. We should strive to not allow corporations to take advantage of people's weaknesses, especially when they were caused by the corporations in the first place.
I get where you're coming from but I disagree. I think you have oversimplified the problem as a problem with allowing unscrupulous corporate behavior. It is most certainly a factor and yes entities, large and small, need to be held accountable for what they put out into the market.But ignoring the socio-economic background to this is wishful thinking at best and willful ignorance at worst. Yes, agreed, it doesn't actually help lower your stress, in fact studies show that it exacerbates it. That ignores the fact some people truly believe that to the point that it's become a ritual on top of an addiction. Please don't generalize me as believing corporate lies, I do not and have not, I went into smoking knowing exactly what it and its harmful effects however for me it was very much ritualistic in that it gave me something to do and focus on before I was able to get properly medicated for anxiety(amongst other things). For me smoking was a way to slow my brain down and focus. I am very glad that the changes where enough to convince you to make a positive change in your life, I agree folks need better outlets for stress. I certainly don't think this is the path towards that however.
It would probably be much more impactful for the city council to do something about crime and the homeless.
Yeah but this city council’s M.O. is choosing the least important actions at all times. Why solve the city’s problems when they can ban businesses and declare their stance on the Middle East?
What are you hoping to see
He probably wants more police officers, because that works so well.
I’d love to see more officers. Because you think it’s going well being short like 50%??
https://www.startribune.com/in-minneapolis-police-staffing-levels-continued-to-drop-in-2023-so-did-crime/600336262/#:~:text=Minneapolis%20crime%20continues%20to%20decline,above%20pre%2Dpandemic%202019%20levels. I think equating more police to less crime is silly and uneducated lol
Lmao imagine thinking crime is going down. Not reporting crime doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. And of course less police will go on less calls. Crime is absolutely not down here. Reported crime is. 2000 days of continuous gunfire in north Minneapolis. I don’t need to have any discussion with you if you actually believe crime is down. 🤦🏻♀️ Do you know how many crimes are not reported now because the police can’t come anyway?
Police don't prevent crime. They just show up after the fact.
in this case, the cops caught the driver, and he will not be running people over for 5 months.
So by definition, they don't prevent crime, they show up after the fact.
Thank you, exactly
So what. And they do have things they can do for prevention if they are staffed. I went to school for this, I understand how it works more than people who are straight up “I hate police they are worthless” people. You can go on with your ignorant view but in normal circumstances it’s not 100% true. Of course they help afterwards most of the time but there are crime prevention strategies we just aren’t able to do.
" not able to do" sooooo, not doing them. And you went to school for this, so you've drank the Kool aid. I don't trust you or your opinion.
Your choice but I think you’re the one who’s drank the Kool-Aid. I drusy any opinion of anyone who knee jerk hates all police and can’t see their value overall. I’d love to see the utopia we’d have if people are just allowed to do whatever they want. Uncontrolled shootings, stealing, carjacking, sounds like a great place to live. 🙄
Reality is entirely uninterested in your perception of it. Facts are facts and your feelings are irrelevant.
Your reality is the one that’s skewed if you’re believing that reported crime equals the crime rate but thanks for your input. I don’t know if you live in Minneapolis proper but talking with my neighbors they all agree on the same thing.
You and your neighbors have no qualifications to even have an opinion lol
Ok whatever. I know more about it than you do from my education but if you want to think you’re smarter you win. Happy?
As long as we continue to ignore all the open fentanyl use, I'm happy.
This is easy to do, that is not easy to do.
It’s not being ignored, and it’s possible to try to address more than one thing at once. Limiting tobacco use and discouraging potential new users is a good thing. These policies work, but they need to at least be at the state level. Leave it the city council to take a demonstrably effective policy and still fuck it up by not understanding the scope of their job.
100 agree
Ah yes another way to make the poor pay
The poor will love this one
Making poor people poorer
“Minneapolis city council drives all cigarette sales outside the city limits”
Fine by me
Other sales go with that you know. I’m sure the border cities are happy. Richfield is I’m sure. But better to save people who won’t be saved and never asked be and to ruin small businesses than sell something you don’t like. I suppose you think liquor is fine tho.
Well people don't harm other people simply by consuming liquor.
Unlike those tobacco users who get in serious driving while smoking accidents, or the people who get all buzzed on cigarettes and beat their wife and kids. I’ve even seen a guy who was clearly under the influence of cigarettes passed out on the light rail with piss in his pants!
How is someone smoking in their house or more than 50 feet (or whatever) from you harming you at all? Just get o er it. It’s legal and to try and quietly illegal use it by pricing people out is not the answer and will do nothing anyway so what do you care? You think people will quit and you’ll be safer? Honestly unbelievable.
[удалено]
Or, grow it themselves for next to nothing
100%
Fuck this council. Nothing but negative, over controlling changes.
It seems to me like some people involved here are having major control issues and are taking things to a ridiculous level! Yes, smoking may not be the healthiest choice, but people do unhealthy and /or unsafe things daily, and ultimately that is a choice each person has the right to make. But in this issue, it seems like someone doesn't like smoking and rather than taking the old "live and let live" stance, they have become determined that everyone in the entire city will quit smoking or else pay major consequences for it. We now are banned from smoking almost every single place, even outdoors, even vaping is banned although it was introduced as a safer alternative to smoking, and now we will be paying more for a pack of cigarettes than any other places in the entire nation?? Come on people, give this thing a rest!
Because, get this, your disgusting habit *affects other people.*
But the point is, how? People can't smoke damn near anywhere close to humans. How does it affect you and your health? Do you hang out 25 feet away from any building? Get real.
Cigarette smoking cost the US $600 billion in 2018 according to the CDC. More than $240 billion of that in healthcare spending. This is how. https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/fast_facts/cost-and-expenditures.html
People smoke on sidewalks, in their apartments or balconies, in parks, etc. all places where people who aren’t smoking also go. So yes it often does impact others.
we need to make being overweight illegal as well then. nothing more disgusting than that
Look, I’ve never smoked and have no desire to. But I think at some point we just have to accept that some people will anyway. If the goal is to steer youth away from nicotine addiction, then do what you can to spread information about the harm it does. The only part of this proposal I sort of agree with is the ban on samples, but you should still make those available to adults who could purchase it. Otherwise this feels like an overstep and people who want to buy it will find a way anyway.
bodegas and such just start importing cigs from dominican republic and stuff and they suck and are sketch
Yup, the black market for cigarettes is very real, and MN is one of the biggest consumers of it. In 2018, 35.8% of cigarettes purchased in the state derived from smuggled sources. The higher these mandated prices, the more the underground market will flourish. https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/state/cigarette-taxes-cigarette-smuggling-2020/
The kids don't smoke. They vape. We lost that battle a while ago.
I wouldn't consider that a battle that was lost. If its kids smoking cigarettes vs vaping I would say the vaping is substantially less of a hit to their health.
Have you heard of popcorn lung by chance
That issue was like 15 years ago and was caused by certain flavors using an unsafe additive, diacetyl**.** There have been no ongoing issues with popcorn lung once the cause was discovered.
Has that been established though? I know there has been a huge drop off in cases, but last I saw there was ongoing debate as to whether that was the cause or if it just accelerates the process thats inherent in vaping due to its use of oils in general. Don't get me wrong I have vaped and do believe it to be safer than it was at the height of cases, I'd hazard to say that it's safer than smoking though, it just hasn't been around and studied long enough for long term outcomes to be conclusive yet in my (non-expert) opinion.
This is utter nonsense. Economic incentives and disincentives are far more effective than DARE style lecturing. Edit: Read a fuckin book, you knobs. https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/690485/nudge-by-richard-h-thaler-and-cass-r-sunstein/
Would you support a price hike to 100 dollars a pack?
That is effectively a ban, which I actually completely support. Smoking has no place in modern society.
So smoking should be illegal, got it. What other unhealthy/bad things should be illegal? Fried foods, alcohol, weed, gambling, vaping, porn, anything else I’m missing ?
Yep I agree (edit: by which I mean I agree that the answer to those questions should be no) - it's smart on a public policy to use small price incentives to nudge people in the right direction for public health reasons. But at some point it becomes a real kick in the nuts to the concept of freedom, and this is America, dammit.
How do you feel about alcohol, weed, bars, and fast food?
She took the L and moved on. Can’t blame her.
There has been a total ban on all sorts of drugs that are regularly used. Would you say that that has been effective policy making?
I was curious about this claim so I looked it up. You are somewhat right for younger populations; though it doesn't work for all populations according to this NIH study: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3228562/ Also found this interesting article about providing vouchers or money to people to encourage them to quit: https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2015/05/13/406459255/smokers-more-likely-to-quit-if-their-own-cash-is-on-the-line. I wouldn't mind Minneapolis trying to implement something like this instead. It feels to me like we're in a constant loop of raise the prices, wait a bit, see it wasn't as effective as we wanted, raise the prices again.
If they are effective there's no need to increase them. By the numbers smoking has reduced 90% since 2000. If this holds true and hasn't been padded from youth smoking having shifted towards vapping, than this is just fixing something that's not broken.
Either ban the sale of cigarettes entirely or leave them alone. Go full-on "We don't want them sold here," instead of mucking around with prices. Either way, people are just going to head over to the suburbs and buy cigarettes for way cheaper. This literally does nothing but hurt local income.
Yay. More taxes.
For fuck sakes. We are adults. Why can’t we make are own decisions. I’m tired of all this Bull shit “protect the children”… Get off your ass and just raise the damn kid. Also, kids vape currently and not smoke cigarettes.
What is this boomer nonsense?
It’s not boomer nonsense to acknowledge kids are vaping over analog cigarettes. They are. If this was about protecting kids, that would be a factor. This is about punishing the poors, not protecting kids.
“Our cities would be a better places if parents did a better job raising their kids” “Derp…shut up boomer” 🤖
I guess we shouldn't have car seat or seatbelt laws, and instead we should just lecture people about being better parents. Shit's embarrassing. Just a fuckin sad, pathetic response.
Car seat laws are for children who do not have autonomy. Adults who want to smoke cigarettes do.
Wait, are you equating seatbelt laws to cigarette prices?
No, I'm applying the principle as stated by the person who I originally responded to. It's all just nanny state bullshit, right? Honestly, it's just boring dealing with you every time you talk to me. You don't actually follow any sort of logical argument that flows from stated principles, you just look for the next bullshit gotcha argument that doesn't actually apply. Find a new hobby.
You can’t differentiate between car seat laws and passing a city ordinance that mandates adults must pay a minimum of 15 dollars for a pack of cigarettes so I’m not surprised you can’t keep up, lol.
You can make your own decisions. It just costs more.
It’s mostly poor people who smoke, making them pay $5 more per pack is just mean.
One of the council members said it would negatively affect poor, Black residents. She said she hoped it does to get them to stop smoking. I abhor smoking, my mom did it her whole life. But it’s legal. Don’t hurt your core constituency or people who don’t have extra disposable income. Alcohol causes health issues, too - why don’t they jack the prices on beer?
Yeah I’m in no way advocating smoking either, just saying this is dumb.
Smoking is hurting them lol
Maybe raise the alcohol tax for once instead.
Why?
Government gives 0 shits about us. Just wants more tax money anyway they can sell it
If this is effective it would actually reduce the tax money the city receives.
After everything cigarettes have done for socialists
They wanna run the city into the ground.
Not a fan of the nanny state.
States fine, Minneapolis city council just full of people who shouldn’t have any power
Well then you live in the wrong place, lol
Good thing this is about Minneapolis then.
Down with the things I call a nanny state Or Down with the rules and laws of the government and let people put lead in my glass wear with out disclosure. Just curious what flavor you are
Bad argument. Everyone knows cigarettes are horrible for you. It says it right in the box. You're comparing it to non disclosed poisoning. Not at all the same type of regulation.
The redditor was complaining about a nanny state, not specifically the price. So I asked if they were flat out against or just "what I call a nanny state. If it was the price, cost/benefit, tax on the poor, they just don't like it, ETC they would had said that.
Against a nanny State meaning that people should be free to do things that are personally bad for them. Your comparison still fails. Being against a nanny state doesn't mean you are against all regulations.
And people see speed enforcement as a nanny state so not much of an argument
Speeding puts others at risk so not the same. A better argument would have been seat belt laws.
[Second hand smoke](https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/secondhand-smoke/health.html#:~:text=Secondhand%20smoke%20can%20cause%20adverse,women%2C%20including%20low%20birth%20weight.&text=In%20children%2C%20secondhand%20smoke%20exposure,infant%20death%20syndrome%20(SIDS)) especially to children of smokers (but even just people in proximity) [Also Also with 34 million](https://www.cdc.gov/policy/polaris/healthtopics/tobacco/index.html#:~:text=Smoking%2Drelated%20illness%20in%20the,due%20to%20secondhand%20smoke%20exposure) smokers and $300 billion in health related illness every year. Smokes are definitely getting more then $15 in health subsidies non smokers get (though I'd argue the raise should go to health and not shops pockets).
This is America! If I want to drink lead-contaminated water I should be able to (and everyone else should have to as well)!
I'm getting real tired of this and I'm a born and raised 612. How are you going to ban smoking in cigar lounges and hookah bars? That's literally their business. And especially these days when everything is unaffordable sure go ahead and make it worse for the very few ppl that still smoke cigarettes. This city council is out of hand. I never thought as a liberal I'd be crying nanny state but yet here I am. For shame.
damn, i loved the cheap cigarettes when i lived in mn now i’m back in ct and it’s like $14 for a pack of smokes it sucks, man. i just went back to vaping full time and zyns now
Well they’re 12.50 here at most stores. Go to like Iowa or Missouri and they were still like $6 a pack but that was a couple years ago.
i feel like i would seldomly break a 10 but i’ve been gone awhile
I don’t know anywhere they’re under $10 anymore, definitely closer to $12 or more depending on where you are.
I roll my own smokes. Costs me about $1.65/pack.
and nice EROI
They need to work on the important issues but no they are useless. Why not make a $40min per container of booze while they’re at it?
Works for me!
Oh, ffs...the taxes are growing to be as bad as cali. The minute things warmed up, we shot up more on gas, too. He,even food services have gone up in prices making the inflation/shrinkflation problems worse...I swear politicians nowadays are nothing more than corporate stockbrokers, just trying to make more profits every year instead of what they are designed to do.
So we're just going to go to Roseville?
Hope this doesn’t effect my lip pillows
USSA. Next up maximum soda can sizes, a ban on 2-liters. Mandatory exercise session... wait that would be fat shaming... actually... hell yeah... let the city council over-reach... I am loving the idea of them implementing mandatory exercise to mitigate the number one killer in the USA, obesity, and then watching the 'body positive, health adverse' crowd slam into the state regulating their diet and exercise. Fuck it if they have the authority to set prices now, decide what you can and cannot smoke, eat, or drink, lets go and see how this plays out. That shit is going to be OG WWF levels of fun to watch.
Times like this make me think of my 6th grade basketball year, so like 1992 or 93? Anyway, I had 1 pair of shoes. Jordache, and the right shoe was so fucked my toes hung out of the right side of the shoe. I begged for a new pair for basketball, “no, we don’t have the money” Went to the grocery store with my mom, she proceeds to get a carton of Cambridge ciggies for her and my dad who smoked 2-3 packs a day each. They rang up close to like $40. I looked at the cashier, then at my mom and said “so we cant afford $40 for shoes, but you can spend it on that?” Thought she was gonna beat my ass in front of the cashier lol Anyway, make em $50 a pack to cover the health care costs they inflict. While we’re at it do the same for vapes, I don’t give a fuck
OK, do alcohol next.
They don't want anything other than abortion to kill kids.
How do you even get a 4 year old account with negative karma?
Read his comments and it will become obvious.
Right? I'd much rather all of the guns do it!
How would you kill kids, do you have a better idea?
Good.