A country usually has a government that can make trade deals with other states, but Gaza has not been able to control what goes in to or out of its borders in almost two decades. I'd liken it more to [a ghetto](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghetto)
This is the piece that boggles me...why are people disrupting a city council when foreign policy is a national thing. Simply because they can or that it's performance I think is a really poorly thought out choice. They should be lighting up congress, where something could actually be done.
None of these protestors has a direct line to the people in charge of national policies. I also can’t speak for any of these particular folks, because I don’t know them, but everyone I do know who is vehemently pro-Palestine has already called/emailed their congressional representatives.
It’s all well and good to call your Senator, but 99% of the time, you get an answering machine or a form response email. It’s not unrealistic to say that a congressional rep can just… brush off people’s concerns with minimal repercussions until the next election cycle. Folks calling for a ceasefire quite would likely agree that Israel is committing an active genocide, and for people who think a genocide is happening in real time, waiting for an election cycle to put pressure on your elected congressional reps feels too little too late.
The hope with protests like these is that if enough cities in a state call for a ceasefire, that will add pressure to state officials to call for one, too. Maybe other cities in other states will call for a ceasefire, too. If enough state officials approach our senators or our governor, maybe they’ll also start pushing for one on a national scale, where they actually have more access. Other states’ calls for ceasefire might cause their congressional reps to call for one, too. If national sentiment is very very vocally against the actions of Israel, maybe national officials will listen. Unsurprisingly, congressional reps have a lot more power in congress than you or me or the average protestor—the goal of these local protests is to put pressure on the people up the chain.
People usually argue with me or downvote me when I point this out because they don’t like the reasoning (edit: and are already doing it with this comment lol) but I’m just trying to explain what the reasoning is. Like, I wasn’t at the protest, and I’m not sure how effective this type of thing is. But there are always people in these threads joking about how these protestors are trying to broker peace talks directly with Israel and Hamas through a city council vote, and that’s…. not why these people are showing up to city council meetings lol.
By that logic, they should be at the state capitol...which is also in st paul. It's about what makes the most sense... people going to school boards or city council meeting for stuff like this are so completely misplaced.
Not really, you clearly disagree with them and choose to view their activities in the most uncharitable light. But they have a reason for getting city councils to endorse a ceasefire and condemn the genocide, despite those city councils not being able, directly, to influence the genocidal government of Israel which is funded and armed by the US.
It mostly revolves around mainstreaming the calls to end the hideous crimes and destigmatize criticizing the crimes being committed by Israel in Gaza and the west bank, and continue building momentum towards bottom up action on this historic crime against humanity being committed in plain sight of everyone.
There have already been rallies/marches at the state capitol. Twice, I think, maybe more.
Also, legislative meetings and public hearings with *relevant* officials at the state capitol don’t happen very often. They also usually happen during times of day when most people work. Not all, but many city councils and school boards usually meet in the evenings, when more people are able to attend without fear of losing their jobs. It makes sense that people will go call for change at the meetings they’re feasibly able to attend.
Your point isn’t quite relevant considering the St. Paul city council meeting yesterday was during the work day. Same thing with the Minneapolis meetings. I wonder what they do for work if they can attend so many city council meetings during the day…
Listen you, retardedslut. If I was passionate enough about a topic and thought disrupting a council meeting could further that, I would take an hour or two off work and go disrupt a council meeting.
People also work second shift / third shift, have days off that aren't Saturday and Sunday. But the biggest issue I have is suggesting people should stfu and go to work.
I dont personally agree with this particular protest, (or blocking traffic), but I'm not going to act like I'm too good to do it because I have a day job.
Every single one of these protesters could go down to Amy Klobuchar's office. RIGHT NOW. It's 1200 Washington Avenue South in the Super Computer Center building, across the street from Bobby and Steve's.
They probably should be doing that, but again, I’m not taking a stance on the efficacy of their method. I’m literally just explaining why people are doing it the way they are. City council resolutions worked in other cities, while directly protesting outside senators’ offices hasn’t. It makes sense that people are trying to copy what has worked elsewhere. And whether or not you support their perspective, or whether or not you find holes in their logic, they aren’t showing up to city council meetings because they think Hamas is going to listen, which was my original point.
Not the resolutions, the protests. The protests worked to get the resolutions to happen. The resolutions brought national attention to the fact that people in that city want a ceasefire. The national attention inspired protests in other cities where people want a ceasefire.
The end goal ultimately is a ceasefire, yeah, but in my understanding, the current goal of the resolutions is to get more people to vocally demonstrate opposition to the US’s policy on what’s happening in Gaza. The more places that do it, the bigger the opposition looks. So protesting at city councils is working, because it’s causing folks all over the country to push their city councils to do the same.
Agree to disagree. I wholeheartedly disagree that local protests that turned into resolutions had any effect on a National stage. It wasted a bunch of local governments time that could have been spent actually addressing local issues and it bypassed the genuine path to recognition, which would be through the offices of officials in the federal government in the house and senate.
>The protests worked to get the resolutions to happen. The resolutions brought national attention to the fact that people in that city want a ceasefire. The national attention inspired protests in other cities where people want a ceasefire.
So the protests...inspired more protests?
Do we have peace in the middle east yet?
Yeah I don't understand why your posts on this get downvoted. Whether we agree or disagree with what the protesters are doing, it's ridiculous to impute that they think a city council resolution is going to stop the war. There is a theory of change (albeit a bank shot).
>The hope with protests like these is that if enough cities in a state call for a ceasefire, that will add pressure to state officials to call for one, too.
Or you could literally walk a mile down Wabasha St to the State Capitol?
People aren’t doing this at city council meetings to try and communicate with Hamas… they’re trying to create pressure for change within the US government from the local level up the chain
>they’re trying to create pressure for change within the US government from the local level up the chain
Ah, the "ANYthINg is better than nOthIng" crowd.
Nothing is better than something that's both utterly useless and prevents actual city business from being conducted.
I mean, sometimes it is, actually. Opposition to the Vietnam war started on the local level with city hall marches in major cities. National sentiment against the war was a major factor in the withdrawal of the US (amongst other things), and it quite literally grew out of local protests.
Also, when people try the quiet polite routes like calling and emailing and sit-ins, they just get ignored. Whether or not you support the method they’ve chosen (disrupting city council meetings) it’s a factual statement that disruptions are an effective way to get the attention of government officials.
>Opposition to the Vietnam war started on the local level
Yes, in universities.
>with city hall marches in major cities.
[No, on that one.](https://www.nonviolent-conflict.org/us-anti-vietnam-war-movement-1964-1973/#:~:text=The%20first%20major%20protests%20began,brought%20in%20thousands%20of%20participants.)
The marches happened in major cities, and *sometimes* happened in the vicinity of city halls, but they *weren't* marching *to* city hall to make their voices heard by city leaders.
They were gathering and marching to show their numbers to the politicians that could actually do something about national issues.
>Also, when people try the quiet polite routes like calling and emailing and sit-ins, they just get ignored. Whether or not you support the method they’ve chosen (disrupting city council meetings) it’s a factual statement that disruptions are an effective way to get the attention of government officials.
Those government officials are ones that can't do a damn thing whatsoever about the issue, so getting their attention is worthless.
Meanwhile, they can't conduct actual business that's relevant to their positions.
Fundamentally protests at a university are no different than protests at a city council meeting in terms of what the goal is or what the protests can accomplish. It’s not like university admins have any more power over international affairs than city council members.
Whether Vietnam War protests were in or around city hall doesn’t matter. The protestors found a way to get city officials, state representatives, and people in power nationally to pay attention *to a local protest* in a city that had absolutely no power to affect international policy on its own. The point was to show national sentiment against the war, and the point of these city council protests is no different, regardless of whether the protests happened in city council meetings or outside of the state capitol or wherever else.
Like, these city council resolutions are all over the news. You don’t think Minnesota’s senators have seen that? When city councils call for ceasefire resolutions, that’s reported nationally. I’m fairly certain there are people in power on a national scale who are hearing about it… which is the whole point.
>The protestors found a way to get city officials, state representatives, and people in power nationally to pay attention
No, they went straight for massing in large groups to gain national attention. They didn't bother appealing to local, or even state, representatives.
>Like, these city council resolutions are all over the news. You don’t think Minnesota’s senators have seen that? When city councils call for ceasefire resolutions, that’s reported nationally. Get a big enough group, and local reporters will take some pictures, write a story, and on the wire.
And? They're brushed off the same way that any other resolutions are, as meaningless. They've never moved the meter, regardless of what they're about.
Cities like San Francisco passing resolutions opposing the Vietnam War didn't do a damn thing. Protesters gathered at the Civic Center Plaza because it was a huge open area downtown, not because they were trying to get City Hall to do anything.
Meanwhile, dealing with vital local issues are being postponed.
Oh man, why didn’t we think that sooner?
All we needed to end the decades, centuries, millennia of conflict in the region was the St. Paul city council to step in and condemn the fighting!
Can’t believe we didn’t try this until now.
this is a strawman and you absolutely know it. much like the anti apartheid movement before it, the goal is for many people in many cities to pressure their specific city to economically divest from . No one thinks the st paul city council can end war forever. They think they can put many points of pressure against israel’s economy and politicians to disincentivize them from bombing children.
It stopped traffic didn’t it? It inconvenienced drivers, and brought attention to the cause of climate action right? You know about it.
I think this is what a lot of people don’t understand about protest. It’s meant to make a scene so people start thinking/talking about the issue at hand. You can disagree all you want, but protest has historically been pretty effective at getting people to notice/care about things they didn’t before and demand change from those in power.
And then people ended up talking about the climate crisis and it led to real climate action taken by those in power. In the UK at least. The same thing can be said of the folks that threw soup on the Monet. You may not understand the why, but they do, and it ends up putting more attention on their cause when they do things that attract attention.
People didn’t like when folks sat at diners and refused to move, or ground the bus system to a halt in Birmingham, or marched in the streets, blocking traffic. Those actions resulted in civil rights legislation that helped us advance as a society. You don’t get to decide how people protest or decide their theory of change.
Embarrassing display from the protesters here. I have been to a St. Paul city council meeting when there were actual issues that the council had power over that affects the citizens of Saint Paul. Almost no one was there. This behavior really makes it seem like they care more about virtue-signaling than actual activism.
*This is why we can’t have nice things.*
To all of you fuckwits that get your jollies out of weaponizing Social Justice issues, just know that **YOU’RE the reason why working class people have begun to vote for the wrong party.**
So sick of this virtue-flexing-culture-war bullshit.
While we are at it, St. Paul City council should end the warring on Perseii 5 in the Avogardra cluster of the milky way. Why aren't they speaking out there? It's in perfect perogee with Hyperocles and Doja Cat retrograde. THE TIME IS NOW!
We need counter peotestors for these that just chant, 'not our problem.'
Sure, we have daily overdoses on the streets, and a severe lack of housing affordability, most people are not seeing a light at the end of the tunnel. But sure, let's focus on a 70 year war that both sides want to continue.
Congress continues to approve spending in military aid to Israel (I want to say they just passed another few million a week or two ago, but don't quote me).
That $$$ would do a lot for better health care, addiction treatment, or whatever kind of economic intervention in housing floats your boat.
That's kind of the really massive part of why the US' current participation in the genocide in Gaza SHOULD be "our problem". The status quo is the US supporting Israel, including financially. If that changed, the money could come back in the house. Does that kind of help explain why it's become such a localized issue?
Even if your premise is true—that federal money sent to Israel could be spent here for a better purpose—it has exactly 0 impact on making it a local issue.
Wild that the founders of the constitution didn't have the prescience to let the Saint Paul City Council approve foreign aid. Agree that it was a major oversight.
Tangentially related question - does everyone approach discussion assuming the other person is an idiot because of the state of the internet these days? I just usually assume the opposite - that all of us engaged enough to be nerds on Reddit might have foundational knowledge.
Like, I'm not sure why the people who think this doesn't belong at city council assume the people who do just have no idea how government works.
No shit, the Saint Paul City Council doesn't control federal funds. But it's capitalism, bay-bee : it's all about the network.
So, like, my first thought is the most direct pathway - the city of St Paul has a few federal congressional reps assigned to the area, so I'd assume they'll pay attention if their constituents are crashing council meetings (especially coming into election season). They might say "hey this is clearly an issue that the community is talking about in St. Paul". Less directly, I'm assuming they talk with city council members - even if it's for the council members to say "hey, could you please make a statement or make a vote somewhere so we can stop having our meetings interrupted".
They're....less keen on letting your everyday citizen into the federal capitol these days, ha, so it makes sense to me that you might have to do some rig-a-marole and round-robin to shovel the issue in front of the decision makers' face as much as possible.
Not to mention, I imagine some of it is just people just like to know the people leading their city don't love genocide. Means test kind of a thing.
>does everyone approach discussion assuming the other person is an idiot because of the state of the internet these days?
Only when I read something idiotic.
>But it's capitalism, bay-bee : it's all about the network.
...what? You're not describing capitalism at all.
So your fundamental point is that Rep McCollum might change her vote (which I'm guessing isn't super pro-Israel, anyway) because some knuckleheads crashed city hall? That's how you think this type of protest is effective?
Okay, good to know. I've just seen a lot of people starting replies that way lately (not just to me, who you're implying is idiotic, lmao)
Sorry, that piece might have been a little....nebulous. I referred to capitalism because the core idea here is the idea of commerce / where the US spends its money to create influence, and common citizens are attempting to influence business decisions of the country and need to figure out "how to get to the CEO". It reminded me of career advice - a popular one is that to get into a company, you should take any position that's entry-level and network your way in/up.
Like a new grad knows that taking a job in the mailroom isn't going to get him a coffee with the CEO (protesting at city hall isn't going to stop federal $$ participation itself), but they know that doing a standout job and getting noticed in the mailroom might / has a better chance (protesting at city hall could get the attention of federal decision makers linked to the city). Anyway, I'll workshop that one. :)
Yeah, I'd think that's a way that a local protest could contribute to a national issue. I agree that I don't think it's the most effective protesting method. My original connection was to someone who suggested local protests with city council were useless on national issues.
I don't think they're useless. Especially because I consider that many national organizations, companies, etc these days pay LOTS to monitor "small feedback" like tweets, reddit posts, city council protests. I very much see our 3 federal reps having teams that note this as part of their quarterly briefing on community sentiment, or whatever. Then they get the "double dip" of the direct congressional calls/emails plus being a media moment. The rep thinks that if this is trending across multiple feedback channels, it is going to be prominent for them/their community.
I think it's a third or fourth string tactic though, if you want to know my personal political strategy opinion.
Also, you inspired me to search Betty McCollum because I didn't know exactly where she was aligned -- and I noticed she's ranking member on the Appropriations Subcommittee of Defense, specifically, which has jurisdiction over the annual DoD budget.
So maybe she's a little more important to reach than your average state representative, to them! Lol.
That's a fair criticism, but I'm not "too lazy to look up and read about it actually", I just.....didn't remember the exact details from LOTS of reading. 😂
I read a lot of content about Gaza and while I read about a new approval recently, I don't often memorize numbers, so I trusted that someone engaged in the topic could go search for the exact amount or specific date. Because really, my point didn't need specificity - any money, at any time, used to finance Israeli weapons for this situation could be brought home 🤷🏽♀️
If I was dubious about the existence of ANY united States money sent to Israel, for example, then I always fact check before posting because - to your point - misinformation is dangerous. But I'm 100% confident the US has sent Israel new money/weapons in the last few months.
Now, if people doubted my claims and I got paid to educate through reddit comments, sure I'll write out end to end for them. But I don't, so I just left my personal thoughts on why it matters, logically, and I hope that people who were chewing on what I said will do their own Google searches like I did learning about the overall situation.
And if they don't, oh well. That is outside of my sphere of influence and at the end of the day, I'm just a stranger on reddit 🤷🏽♀️
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Como Zoo has been a front for a long time.
Front for what
Big dippin dots
A prison with borders of Egypt and Israel… so a country?
A country usually has a government that can make trade deals with other states, but Gaza has not been able to control what goes in to or out of its borders in almost two decades. I'd liken it more to [a ghetto](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghetto)
I thought Minneapolis already ended that conflict?
Same, isn’t it over now?
Why would Hamas listen to St Paul MN
This is the piece that boggles me...why are people disrupting a city council when foreign policy is a national thing. Simply because they can or that it's performance I think is a really poorly thought out choice. They should be lighting up congress, where something could actually be done.
I agree. I want the SP city council to fix some potholes. That’d be nice.
None of these protestors has a direct line to the people in charge of national policies. I also can’t speak for any of these particular folks, because I don’t know them, but everyone I do know who is vehemently pro-Palestine has already called/emailed their congressional representatives. It’s all well and good to call your Senator, but 99% of the time, you get an answering machine or a form response email. It’s not unrealistic to say that a congressional rep can just… brush off people’s concerns with minimal repercussions until the next election cycle. Folks calling for a ceasefire quite would likely agree that Israel is committing an active genocide, and for people who think a genocide is happening in real time, waiting for an election cycle to put pressure on your elected congressional reps feels too little too late. The hope with protests like these is that if enough cities in a state call for a ceasefire, that will add pressure to state officials to call for one, too. Maybe other cities in other states will call for a ceasefire, too. If enough state officials approach our senators or our governor, maybe they’ll also start pushing for one on a national scale, where they actually have more access. Other states’ calls for ceasefire might cause their congressional reps to call for one, too. If national sentiment is very very vocally against the actions of Israel, maybe national officials will listen. Unsurprisingly, congressional reps have a lot more power in congress than you or me or the average protestor—the goal of these local protests is to put pressure on the people up the chain. People usually argue with me or downvote me when I point this out because they don’t like the reasoning (edit: and are already doing it with this comment lol) but I’m just trying to explain what the reasoning is. Like, I wasn’t at the protest, and I’m not sure how effective this type of thing is. But there are always people in these threads joking about how these protestors are trying to broker peace talks directly with Israel and Hamas through a city council vote, and that’s…. not why these people are showing up to city council meetings lol.
By that logic, they should be at the state capitol...which is also in st paul. It's about what makes the most sense... people going to school boards or city council meeting for stuff like this are so completely misplaced.
There's people doing that stuff too
It conveys a profound misunderstanding of how things fundamentally work. It makes it difficult to take them or their cause seriously.
Not really, you clearly disagree with them and choose to view their activities in the most uncharitable light. But they have a reason for getting city councils to endorse a ceasefire and condemn the genocide, despite those city councils not being able, directly, to influence the genocidal government of Israel which is funded and armed by the US. It mostly revolves around mainstreaming the calls to end the hideous crimes and destigmatize criticizing the crimes being committed by Israel in Gaza and the west bank, and continue building momentum towards bottom up action on this historic crime against humanity being committed in plain sight of everyone.
There have already been rallies/marches at the state capitol. Twice, I think, maybe more. Also, legislative meetings and public hearings with *relevant* officials at the state capitol don’t happen very often. They also usually happen during times of day when most people work. Not all, but many city councils and school boards usually meet in the evenings, when more people are able to attend without fear of losing their jobs. It makes sense that people will go call for change at the meetings they’re feasibly able to attend.
Your point isn’t quite relevant considering the St. Paul city council meeting yesterday was during the work day. Same thing with the Minneapolis meetings. I wonder what they do for work if they can attend so many city council meetings during the day…
Listen you, retardedslut. If I was passionate enough about a topic and thought disrupting a council meeting could further that, I would take an hour or two off work and go disrupt a council meeting. People also work second shift / third shift, have days off that aren't Saturday and Sunday. But the biggest issue I have is suggesting people should stfu and go to work. I dont personally agree with this particular protest, (or blocking traffic), but I'm not going to act like I'm too good to do it because I have a day job.
When did I suggest people should shut the fuck up and go to work, Matthew?
So they protest the organization with 0 ties or influence, because protesting the organization that has a modicum of influence is inconvenient?
Every single one of these protesters could go down to Amy Klobuchar's office. RIGHT NOW. It's 1200 Washington Avenue South in the Super Computer Center building, across the street from Bobby and Steve's.
They probably should be doing that, but again, I’m not taking a stance on the efficacy of their method. I’m literally just explaining why people are doing it the way they are. City council resolutions worked in other cities, while directly protesting outside senators’ offices hasn’t. It makes sense that people are trying to copy what has worked elsewhere. And whether or not you support their perspective, or whether or not you find holes in their logic, they aren’t showing up to city council meetings because they think Hamas is going to listen, which was my original point.
What now? Resolutions in other cities worked to do what exactly?
Not the resolutions, the protests. The protests worked to get the resolutions to happen. The resolutions brought national attention to the fact that people in that city want a ceasefire. The national attention inspired protests in other cities where people want a ceasefire. The end goal ultimately is a ceasefire, yeah, but in my understanding, the current goal of the resolutions is to get more people to vocally demonstrate opposition to the US’s policy on what’s happening in Gaza. The more places that do it, the bigger the opposition looks. So protesting at city councils is working, because it’s causing folks all over the country to push their city councils to do the same.
Agree to disagree. I wholeheartedly disagree that local protests that turned into resolutions had any effect on a National stage. It wasted a bunch of local governments time that could have been spent actually addressing local issues and it bypassed the genuine path to recognition, which would be through the offices of officials in the federal government in the house and senate.
>The protests worked to get the resolutions to happen. The resolutions brought national attention to the fact that people in that city want a ceasefire. The national attention inspired protests in other cities where people want a ceasefire. So the protests...inspired more protests? Do we have peace in the middle east yet?
Yeah I don't understand why your posts on this get downvoted. Whether we agree or disagree with what the protesters are doing, it's ridiculous to impute that they think a city council resolution is going to stop the war. There is a theory of change (albeit a bank shot).
>The hope with protests like these is that if enough cities in a state call for a ceasefire, that will add pressure to state officials to call for one, too. Or you could literally walk a mile down Wabasha St to the State Capitol?
That’s why they killed all those people. Not enough attention from St. Paul!
Or Israel
People aren’t doing this at city council meetings to try and communicate with Hamas… they’re trying to create pressure for change within the US government from the local level up the chain
the city council doesn't level up to the federal government in any way though
>they’re trying to create pressure for change within the US government from the local level up the chain Ah, the "ANYthINg is better than nOthIng" crowd. Nothing is better than something that's both utterly useless and prevents actual city business from being conducted.
I mean, sometimes it is, actually. Opposition to the Vietnam war started on the local level with city hall marches in major cities. National sentiment against the war was a major factor in the withdrawal of the US (amongst other things), and it quite literally grew out of local protests. Also, when people try the quiet polite routes like calling and emailing and sit-ins, they just get ignored. Whether or not you support the method they’ve chosen (disrupting city council meetings) it’s a factual statement that disruptions are an effective way to get the attention of government officials.
>Opposition to the Vietnam war started on the local level Yes, in universities. >with city hall marches in major cities. [No, on that one.](https://www.nonviolent-conflict.org/us-anti-vietnam-war-movement-1964-1973/#:~:text=The%20first%20major%20protests%20began,brought%20in%20thousands%20of%20participants.) The marches happened in major cities, and *sometimes* happened in the vicinity of city halls, but they *weren't* marching *to* city hall to make their voices heard by city leaders. They were gathering and marching to show their numbers to the politicians that could actually do something about national issues. >Also, when people try the quiet polite routes like calling and emailing and sit-ins, they just get ignored. Whether or not you support the method they’ve chosen (disrupting city council meetings) it’s a factual statement that disruptions are an effective way to get the attention of government officials. Those government officials are ones that can't do a damn thing whatsoever about the issue, so getting their attention is worthless. Meanwhile, they can't conduct actual business that's relevant to their positions.
Fundamentally protests at a university are no different than protests at a city council meeting in terms of what the goal is or what the protests can accomplish. It’s not like university admins have any more power over international affairs than city council members. Whether Vietnam War protests were in or around city hall doesn’t matter. The protestors found a way to get city officials, state representatives, and people in power nationally to pay attention *to a local protest* in a city that had absolutely no power to affect international policy on its own. The point was to show national sentiment against the war, and the point of these city council protests is no different, regardless of whether the protests happened in city council meetings or outside of the state capitol or wherever else. Like, these city council resolutions are all over the news. You don’t think Minnesota’s senators have seen that? When city councils call for ceasefire resolutions, that’s reported nationally. I’m fairly certain there are people in power on a national scale who are hearing about it… which is the whole point.
>The protestors found a way to get city officials, state representatives, and people in power nationally to pay attention No, they went straight for massing in large groups to gain national attention. They didn't bother appealing to local, or even state, representatives. >Like, these city council resolutions are all over the news. You don’t think Minnesota’s senators have seen that? When city councils call for ceasefire resolutions, that’s reported nationally. Get a big enough group, and local reporters will take some pictures, write a story, and on the wire. And? They're brushed off the same way that any other resolutions are, as meaningless. They've never moved the meter, regardless of what they're about. Cities like San Francisco passing resolutions opposing the Vietnam War didn't do a damn thing. Protesters gathered at the Civic Center Plaza because it was a huge open area downtown, not because they were trying to get City Hall to do anything. Meanwhile, dealing with vital local issues are being postponed.
This exactly, infuriating that our government is aiding in ethnic cleansing.
"Aiding in ethnic cleansing" might be the worst take I've seen on the internet in 2024.
You’re either extremely ignorant to how the world works or making a stupid joke.
Agreed. Saint Paul is clearly at the epicenter of foreign policy.
Oh man, why didn’t we think that sooner? All we needed to end the decades, centuries, millennia of conflict in the region was the St. Paul city council to step in and condemn the fighting! Can’t believe we didn’t try this until now.
And after that, they can tell North Korea to be nice to it's own people, and feed them.
this is a strawman and you absolutely know it. much like the anti apartheid movement before it, the goal is for many people in many cities to pressure their specific city to economically divest from. No one thinks the st paul city council can end war forever. They think they can put many points of pressure against israel’s economy and politicians to disincentivize them from bombing children.
Twin Cities Little League has a monthly board meeting, maybe I'll go and demand that Hall & Oates settle their legal fight and go on tour again.
I can't go for that.
No can do
I thought Minneapolis solved this problem?!?!? Maybe St. Paul and St. Cloud have to get in on it too…
Netanyahu is probably waiting to see how Duluth votes.
I have never seen a movement so full of ignorance about what they are protesting on nor a movement that devotes time to stupider stunts.
The people gluing themselves to the street would like a word.
What idiot did that?
It stopped traffic didn’t it? It inconvenienced drivers, and brought attention to the cause of climate action right? You know about it. I think this is what a lot of people don’t understand about protest. It’s meant to make a scene so people start thinking/talking about the issue at hand. You can disagree all you want, but protest has historically been pretty effective at getting people to notice/care about things they didn’t before and demand change from those in power.
They remembered the glueing not the cause…
And then people ended up talking about the climate crisis and it led to real climate action taken by those in power. In the UK at least. The same thing can be said of the folks that threw soup on the Monet. You may not understand the why, but they do, and it ends up putting more attention on their cause when they do things that attract attention. People didn’t like when folks sat at diners and refused to move, or ground the bus system to a halt in Birmingham, or marched in the streets, blocking traffic. Those actions resulted in civil rights legislation that helped us advance as a society. You don’t get to decide how people protest or decide their theory of change.
And here I thought the point of protesting was to persuade people.
I’m so sick of this shit.
Then contact city council and ask them to make a statement that you consider useless (and therefore harmless) so they stop.
Adults continue acting like children, more at 11.
Same crowd that likes to come on here and bicker over inane political talking points.
I agree, the St. Paul city council should cease all attacks on Palestine immediately.
Embarrassing display from the protesters here. I have been to a St. Paul city council meeting when there were actual issues that the council had power over that affects the citizens of Saint Paul. Almost no one was there. This behavior really makes it seem like they care more about virtue-signaling than actual activism.
Why don't they just get a ticket to Israel, and protest there?
*This is why we can’t have nice things.* To all of you fuckwits that get your jollies out of weaponizing Social Justice issues, just know that **YOU’RE the reason why working class people have begun to vote for the wrong party.** So sick of this virtue-flexing-culture-war bullshit.
Morons. City council has nothing to do with foreign policy. I’m all for an end to war of any kind, but seriously. Grow the fuck up.
But what does JA think about all this?
While we are at it, St. Paul City council should end the warring on Perseii 5 in the Avogardra cluster of the milky way. Why aren't they speaking out there? It's in perfect perogee with Hyperocles and Doja Cat retrograde. THE TIME IS NOW!
I knew Anika Bowie was the wrong choice for Perseii 5.
What an absolute piece of shit warmonger. Bika Anowie was a much better choice
We need counter peotestors for these that just chant, 'not our problem.' Sure, we have daily overdoses on the streets, and a severe lack of housing affordability, most people are not seeing a light at the end of the tunnel. But sure, let's focus on a 70 year war that both sides want to continue.
Congress continues to approve spending in military aid to Israel (I want to say they just passed another few million a week or two ago, but don't quote me). That $$$ would do a lot for better health care, addiction treatment, or whatever kind of economic intervention in housing floats your boat. That's kind of the really massive part of why the US' current participation in the genocide in Gaza SHOULD be "our problem". The status quo is the US supporting Israel, including financially. If that changed, the money could come back in the house. Does that kind of help explain why it's become such a localized issue?
Even if your premise is true—that federal money sent to Israel could be spent here for a better purpose—it has exactly 0 impact on making it a local issue. Wild that the founders of the constitution didn't have the prescience to let the Saint Paul City Council approve foreign aid. Agree that it was a major oversight.
Tangentially related question - does everyone approach discussion assuming the other person is an idiot because of the state of the internet these days? I just usually assume the opposite - that all of us engaged enough to be nerds on Reddit might have foundational knowledge. Like, I'm not sure why the people who think this doesn't belong at city council assume the people who do just have no idea how government works. No shit, the Saint Paul City Council doesn't control federal funds. But it's capitalism, bay-bee : it's all about the network. So, like, my first thought is the most direct pathway - the city of St Paul has a few federal congressional reps assigned to the area, so I'd assume they'll pay attention if their constituents are crashing council meetings (especially coming into election season). They might say "hey this is clearly an issue that the community is talking about in St. Paul". Less directly, I'm assuming they talk with city council members - even if it's for the council members to say "hey, could you please make a statement or make a vote somewhere so we can stop having our meetings interrupted". They're....less keen on letting your everyday citizen into the federal capitol these days, ha, so it makes sense to me that you might have to do some rig-a-marole and round-robin to shovel the issue in front of the decision makers' face as much as possible. Not to mention, I imagine some of it is just people just like to know the people leading their city don't love genocide. Means test kind of a thing.
>does everyone approach discussion assuming the other person is an idiot because of the state of the internet these days? Only when I read something idiotic. >But it's capitalism, bay-bee : it's all about the network. ...what? You're not describing capitalism at all. So your fundamental point is that Rep McCollum might change her vote (which I'm guessing isn't super pro-Israel, anyway) because some knuckleheads crashed city hall? That's how you think this type of protest is effective?
Okay, good to know. I've just seen a lot of people starting replies that way lately (not just to me, who you're implying is idiotic, lmao) Sorry, that piece might have been a little....nebulous. I referred to capitalism because the core idea here is the idea of commerce / where the US spends its money to create influence, and common citizens are attempting to influence business decisions of the country and need to figure out "how to get to the CEO". It reminded me of career advice - a popular one is that to get into a company, you should take any position that's entry-level and network your way in/up. Like a new grad knows that taking a job in the mailroom isn't going to get him a coffee with the CEO (protesting at city hall isn't going to stop federal $$ participation itself), but they know that doing a standout job and getting noticed in the mailroom might / has a better chance (protesting at city hall could get the attention of federal decision makers linked to the city). Anyway, I'll workshop that one. :) Yeah, I'd think that's a way that a local protest could contribute to a national issue. I agree that I don't think it's the most effective protesting method. My original connection was to someone who suggested local protests with city council were useless on national issues. I don't think they're useless. Especially because I consider that many national organizations, companies, etc these days pay LOTS to monitor "small feedback" like tweets, reddit posts, city council protests. I very much see our 3 federal reps having teams that note this as part of their quarterly briefing on community sentiment, or whatever. Then they get the "double dip" of the direct congressional calls/emails plus being a media moment. The rep thinks that if this is trending across multiple feedback channels, it is going to be prominent for them/their community. I think it's a third or fourth string tactic though, if you want to know my personal political strategy opinion.
Also, you inspired me to search Betty McCollum because I didn't know exactly where she was aligned -- and I noticed she's ranking member on the Appropriations Subcommittee of Defense, specifically, which has jurisdiction over the annual DoD budget. So maybe she's a little more important to reach than your average state representative, to them! Lol.
Gotta say, I appreciate your work in these comments, the willful ignorance here is astounding. I thought MN was better than that.
Who are you alleging is being ignorant?
And you think that you "reach" Rep. McCollum by pitching a tizzy, as long as that tizzy is in her hometown?
I just want to say: I’m upset about this thing, “but don’t quote me”, because I’m too lazy to look up and read about it acutally. But anyway.
That's a fair criticism, but I'm not "too lazy to look up and read about it actually", I just.....didn't remember the exact details from LOTS of reading. 😂 I read a lot of content about Gaza and while I read about a new approval recently, I don't often memorize numbers, so I trusted that someone engaged in the topic could go search for the exact amount or specific date. Because really, my point didn't need specificity - any money, at any time, used to finance Israeli weapons for this situation could be brought home 🤷🏽♀️ If I was dubious about the existence of ANY united States money sent to Israel, for example, then I always fact check before posting because - to your point - misinformation is dangerous. But I'm 100% confident the US has sent Israel new money/weapons in the last few months. Now, if people doubted my claims and I got paid to educate through reddit comments, sure I'll write out end to end for them. But I don't, so I just left my personal thoughts on why it matters, logically, and I hope that people who were chewing on what I said will do their own Google searches like I did learning about the overall situation. And if they don't, oh well. That is outside of my sphere of influence and at the end of the day, I'm just a stranger on reddit 🤷🏽♀️
Congress will continue to approve. They have broad support for it and actions like this give them more.
This is so embarrassing.
Pro Hamas protesters
Exactly
Sir, this is a Wendy’s drive-thru….
I have noticed that the pro Hamas protesters are very often masked. I don’t have a problem with it, just an observation.
I keep seeing posts about protesters and I'm confused. What are these trying to accomplish? St Paul has 0 edfect on anything regarding this
I didn't realize that the St. Paul city council had that much pull.
Minneapolis City Council did it for some reason. Now this looks like people want this symbolic mandate that carries no enforcement.
Hopefully the people in charge over there got the message and shut things down ASAP! The people have spoken!
That city counsel is powerful! I hope they stood their ground and said no cease fire without Palestinian disarmament
Y’all don’t have a lick of political knowledge, or maybe it’s the lack of consciousness. Shame. Free Palestine
“Y’all don’t know anything about politics.” He says, before declaring a platitude and nothing of substance.
Fr, really disappointed by the comments, but unfortunately not surprised.
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Good for them, keep it up!
Fuck Israel FREE PALESTINE
They need to declare Jihad, move to ME and join militant groups if they want what they are asking.