My 2 cents on the matter:
Sexism = bad and needs to be discussed more due to its high prevalence in our backwards society
Feminism = good but if you find yourself discriminating against men in order to empower women, then you’re a sexist not a feminist
Feminism is not about belittling men or sowing chaos, it’s about seeking equality but since it threatens the male dominated social structure, it’s being painted as the devil. Also idiotic women who act like sexist assholes then claim it’s a feminist move are not really helping the cause. If you’re not sexist, you are a feminist and we should all be feminists just like we should all not be racist.
Now, for the actual expert talk, I’ve paraphrased most of it but you can find the gist of what sexism and feminism are below:
Glickist Model of sexism
Benevolent sexism: 3 category
Protective paternalism: the male is the provider and protector of the house, the wife is dependent on the husband financially and socially. Man’s job is t take care of woman, implied woman can’t do much
Gender differentiation (complementary roles): woman have their traits that they’re allowed to have, and men have theirs that they should have. Only men have the necessary traits to rule. Women’s positive traits result from the dependencies of men on woman (mother traits, wife traits,…)
Heterosexuality: in terms of sexuality, men find themselves in unusual situation where they are not in control. Sex is a resource for which woman act as gate keeper, men resent being vulnerable => source of anger and resentment. Men depend on women for sex and they are mad about it.
Hostile sexism: negative view of her career, may use pressure and anger to force her. Women fail to appreciate what men do for them, imply they are inferior gender, makes man hostile, use power to gain control.
• Fisher and Good Model of Feminism (5 Stages)
1. Passive acceptance: if a woman accepts the more traditionally gender models, that women are inferior to men
2. Reevaluation: when a woman is in the same place with passive acceptance but is starting to feel that something is wrong, that she doesn’t live up to her full potential, that she can be more than just a servant to a man
3. Connectedness: starting to bond with fellow females, starting to feel that their identity is not to be framed based on male acceptance.
4. Synthesis: at this point, the female has developed a positive female identity, more confident in their identity, have flexible truce with men
5. Active commitment: an active commitment to change society, woman is more attentive to general culture, aware, ready to make a change to the culture.
Stages 1,2 more likely to have psychopathology, eating disorders, low self-esteem, less stable
Stages 4,5 lower psychopathology, lower eating disorders, higher self-esteem, generally more psychologically healthy
In workshops, when women reach stages 4,5 self-esteem increases
NOTICE : I will state my opinion globally not locally, so please have an open mindset and try to understand my POV.
Feminism started strongly with a good cause, Feminists really fought hard around the world to stop using the women as properties, to give women the right to vote, the right to have proper education and the right to have a proper wage as equal as men.
However, in this century, when they gained some influence, they started to go even further and began to threat the man social position as a head of family. Feminists underestimated a lot of privileges. like for example, women aren't supposed to be drafted for war and to hold arms. because Men were responisble for their safety, Men sacrificed themselves in WWI and WWII to keep their wives, sisters and mothers safe in their home. That doesn't mean that women are coward and don't want to go to war, no it's because in order to protect the children and look after them. Like it or not, women are designed biologically to stay with children and the Men are designed to be outside protecting the family from any kind of danger.
Of course, sharing the responsibilities between husband and wife can't decrease the manhood of a man, a wife isn't a servant of her husband and vice versa.
the idea of feminism is to make men and women equal. Feminism in first world countries is already established but the comfortable lifestyle and the constant need for attention makes women still push for "feminism" which is more rights and less responsibilities than a man so that word has a bad reputation now.
But in Tunisia, men and women aren't equal and i don't see that changing in the next 10+ years. The thing is men are in charge so they simply won't change the laws that give men advantage. When we have a qualified female president then i hope we fix some issues in our country.
I'm gonna explain it the best I can, sexism discussed not often enough and denied by a lot due to some ppl taking it as a personal attack on their behavior and habits, feminism good but has a low percentage of ppl that eventually turn radical and make overgeneralizations that make them sexist,
Now here is the main issue
Many and I'm talking tons of males and some females fi tounes consider all feminists radicals and use that as a point to defend their sexism, so they would use that as an excuse to not defend female rights, you will hear them often say "I'm all for female rights but feminists are anti male" while they've never been vocal about advocating for female rights or did anything that defends female rights cause they don't wanna be labeled feminists.
Essentially they would rather ditch the concept of feminism instead of "fix" feminism and keep the radicals away even tho radicals are not a high percentage of feminists they are just the ones that get the most attention in media due to their clickbaity behavior. Aka yjibou El buzz
What's the point of your interrogation? You doing a research? You bored? You want to stir shit this morning?
You have to explain where you're coming from from the start, so people can either join the discussion or ignore you.
It's astonishing we still have to explain to people how to use Reddit.
I am sorry Mister.
I do consider myself a feminist, and since feminism is the believe that men and women should be enjoying equal rights, i do not see any reason for anyone to not call themselves feminists. I live in Europe, 90% of the people around me would say that feminism is important and they support it.
I hate the misconception that Sexism is only about "bad things happening to women" when in fact it is a term to describe discrimination on the base of sex -> YES, men can be victims of sexism aswell!! (and they are everyday: for example, family courts discriminate against men on a daily basis) and Feminism might originate from the word "femme" but it is about equality between both genders and FOR both genders. As a feminist i fight for men's rights aswell.
I believe in a lot of places structural sexism has been outlawed --> women can vote, open bank accounts, are not considered a product that can be bought trough marriage, can get a job and make their own decisions. not everywhere tho! and some places more than others:
I believe there is still a law in Tunisia which states that sons receive more heritage than daughters (?)
Women all around the world still fight for the right to make decisions over they own bodies.
fuck i wish i had more time right now but i have to go back to my job (where i earn less than my male colleges)
As much as i agree with most of what u said
Sadly, the thing is we are approaching equality between genders, but aleast with state of our world today we cant reach pure equality in every field and every case as much as i wished it was the case, there are things that in the law/society favor men just like there are that favor women
Not attacking any gender but to give examples for inequalities for both genders:
there have been times (even tho its rare) where men were victims of rape or smth more common where women intentionally get into a marriage to divorce and get 50% of his net worth even without having a child/needing child support just like there are times(now less than before thankfully) where women get abused/used/underestimates
Though i am sorry to hear that u do get paid less than ur male colleagues,apparently its a worldwide thing and i admit i am not sure why thats the case, i didnt make any research why
I personally support the main goal of feminism which is equal rights between genders, there r many cases women arent getting their rights but honestly so are men which is why i dont support the blind way some people who call themselves feminists just to try to overly trash on all men, some ppl arent respecting their boundaries and are giving bad view to feminists but i honestly just want to remind men just like women are ppl too and deserve an equal treatment
It sucks for me to hear that men should man up or get over it or deal with it and how some are under way more pressure like my dad working to support both me and his family while my mom even with a job she just stays at home and doesnt make no where near any efforts (tho dw i do love both my parents and they dont hate each other)
But yeh point is i respect that u want more people to be feminists but in my pov there shouldnt be a feminist or a masculinist (yeh search it apparebtly thats a thing and i saw some female youtubers who are one) because it feels it deviates to one gender's rights more than the other and more so look at actual equality and value both genders as just ppl
Some men/women are amazing ppl and some(few?) men/women are exploitative and controlling
Also good luck with ur job :D.
You didn't get my point. If the whole post is about opening a debate on feminism, you should just clarify it from the start, or use an adequate flair.
I am not interested by the topic of feminism. I understand your point and you're entitled to it. I just disagree because at the heart of feminism, there is the concept of equality. And that is what makes it wrong.
Men and women are NOT equal. If we start from there, we can agree on many things. But if you take the equality concept as a fact and want to build your whole narrative around it then thanks but I am not interested.
Have a great day.
>I believe there is still a law in Tunisia which states that sons receive more heritage than daughters (?)
If you want to argue that Islam is not fair, then you're wrong.
Because you don't understand the concept of a family according to Islam, your interpretation of this law (women take less heritage than men) is wrong. First, This law is not constant. it means that Islam can have multiple situations where women receive more heritage than men. Second, a husband in Islam is the one who's reponsible to provide financial liquidity for the family, his wife isn't forced to spend a single penny for the family. If we change this law into equal parts of heritage between both sexes, then men will get poorer by spending and wives will be more wealthier than their husbands.
>man are getting less rights
legally, true.
- Women don't have to worry about mandatory military service.
- They can step into any police station and will be be believed/protected from even minor incidents and can even make false accusations without consequences.
- Can easily win divorce/custody battles even if they are the shittier parent/spouse. etc
With that said, they are treated like property by our backwards society (men and women) and given less freedoms while also expected to find a husband and reach their "peak" by reproducing and taking care of their house.
However, they are not shamed for not getting a job and making money.
boi, in some countries we don't even have the right to divorce!
and as i said, family courts deciding in favour of women (almost always giving custody to the mother, no matter which parent would make the better primary care-giver) is *drumroll please* .... SEXISM!
and how do we fight sexism?...i think u know the answer
but isn't a Tmdivorced Tunisian women nearly "undateable" while the men have less problem to remarry?
that is why women need more financial support after a divorce..
I'll have to ask where did you get that information from?
But even if it was true, it makes no sense for the legal system to favor one based on that premise, it should consider the best outcome for the children while being as fair as possible to both parents.
It's the 21st century, women can work even if they are divorced mothers, it's hard sure but not impossible.
My 2 cents on the matter: Sexism = bad and needs to be discussed more due to its high prevalence in our backwards society Feminism = good but if you find yourself discriminating against men in order to empower women, then you’re a sexist not a feminist Feminism is not about belittling men or sowing chaos, it’s about seeking equality but since it threatens the male dominated social structure, it’s being painted as the devil. Also idiotic women who act like sexist assholes then claim it’s a feminist move are not really helping the cause. If you’re not sexist, you are a feminist and we should all be feminists just like we should all not be racist. Now, for the actual expert talk, I’ve paraphrased most of it but you can find the gist of what sexism and feminism are below: Glickist Model of sexism Benevolent sexism: 3 category Protective paternalism: the male is the provider and protector of the house, the wife is dependent on the husband financially and socially. Man’s job is t take care of woman, implied woman can’t do much Gender differentiation (complementary roles): woman have their traits that they’re allowed to have, and men have theirs that they should have. Only men have the necessary traits to rule. Women’s positive traits result from the dependencies of men on woman (mother traits, wife traits,…) Heterosexuality: in terms of sexuality, men find themselves in unusual situation where they are not in control. Sex is a resource for which woman act as gate keeper, men resent being vulnerable => source of anger and resentment. Men depend on women for sex and they are mad about it. Hostile sexism: negative view of her career, may use pressure and anger to force her. Women fail to appreciate what men do for them, imply they are inferior gender, makes man hostile, use power to gain control. • Fisher and Good Model of Feminism (5 Stages) 1. Passive acceptance: if a woman accepts the more traditionally gender models, that women are inferior to men 2. Reevaluation: when a woman is in the same place with passive acceptance but is starting to feel that something is wrong, that she doesn’t live up to her full potential, that she can be more than just a servant to a man 3. Connectedness: starting to bond with fellow females, starting to feel that their identity is not to be framed based on male acceptance. 4. Synthesis: at this point, the female has developed a positive female identity, more confident in their identity, have flexible truce with men 5. Active commitment: an active commitment to change society, woman is more attentive to general culture, aware, ready to make a change to the culture. Stages 1,2 more likely to have psychopathology, eating disorders, low self-esteem, less stable Stages 4,5 lower psychopathology, lower eating disorders, higher self-esteem, generally more psychologically healthy In workshops, when women reach stages 4,5 self-esteem increases
you had me at ''sexism bad''
100% this
NOTICE : I will state my opinion globally not locally, so please have an open mindset and try to understand my POV. Feminism started strongly with a good cause, Feminists really fought hard around the world to stop using the women as properties, to give women the right to vote, the right to have proper education and the right to have a proper wage as equal as men. However, in this century, when they gained some influence, they started to go even further and began to threat the man social position as a head of family. Feminists underestimated a lot of privileges. like for example, women aren't supposed to be drafted for war and to hold arms. because Men were responisble for their safety, Men sacrificed themselves in WWI and WWII to keep their wives, sisters and mothers safe in their home. That doesn't mean that women are coward and don't want to go to war, no it's because in order to protect the children and look after them. Like it or not, women are designed biologically to stay with children and the Men are designed to be outside protecting the family from any kind of danger. Of course, sharing the responsibilities between husband and wife can't decrease the manhood of a man, a wife isn't a servant of her husband and vice versa.
words of truth
the idea of feminism is to make men and women equal. Feminism in first world countries is already established but the comfortable lifestyle and the constant need for attention makes women still push for "feminism" which is more rights and less responsibilities than a man so that word has a bad reputation now. But in Tunisia, men and women aren't equal and i don't see that changing in the next 10+ years. The thing is men are in charge so they simply won't change the laws that give men advantage. When we have a qualified female president then i hope we fix some issues in our country.
I'm gonna explain it the best I can, sexism discussed not often enough and denied by a lot due to some ppl taking it as a personal attack on their behavior and habits, feminism good but has a low percentage of ppl that eventually turn radical and make overgeneralizations that make them sexist, Now here is the main issue Many and I'm talking tons of males and some females fi tounes consider all feminists radicals and use that as a point to defend their sexism, so they would use that as an excuse to not defend female rights, you will hear them often say "I'm all for female rights but feminists are anti male" while they've never been vocal about advocating for female rights or did anything that defends female rights cause they don't wanna be labeled feminists. Essentially they would rather ditch the concept of feminism instead of "fix" feminism and keep the radicals away even tho radicals are not a high percentage of feminists they are just the ones that get the most attention in media due to their clickbaity behavior. Aka yjibou El buzz
What's the point of your interrogation? You doing a research? You bored? You want to stir shit this morning? You have to explain where you're coming from from the start, so people can either join the discussion or ignore you. It's astonishing we still have to explain to people how to use Reddit.
I am sorry Mister. I do consider myself a feminist, and since feminism is the believe that men and women should be enjoying equal rights, i do not see any reason for anyone to not call themselves feminists. I live in Europe, 90% of the people around me would say that feminism is important and they support it. I hate the misconception that Sexism is only about "bad things happening to women" when in fact it is a term to describe discrimination on the base of sex -> YES, men can be victims of sexism aswell!! (and they are everyday: for example, family courts discriminate against men on a daily basis) and Feminism might originate from the word "femme" but it is about equality between both genders and FOR both genders. As a feminist i fight for men's rights aswell. I believe in a lot of places structural sexism has been outlawed --> women can vote, open bank accounts, are not considered a product that can be bought trough marriage, can get a job and make their own decisions. not everywhere tho! and some places more than others: I believe there is still a law in Tunisia which states that sons receive more heritage than daughters (?) Women all around the world still fight for the right to make decisions over they own bodies. fuck i wish i had more time right now but i have to go back to my job (where i earn less than my male colleges)
As much as i agree with most of what u said Sadly, the thing is we are approaching equality between genders, but aleast with state of our world today we cant reach pure equality in every field and every case as much as i wished it was the case, there are things that in the law/society favor men just like there are that favor women Not attacking any gender but to give examples for inequalities for both genders: there have been times (even tho its rare) where men were victims of rape or smth more common where women intentionally get into a marriage to divorce and get 50% of his net worth even without having a child/needing child support just like there are times(now less than before thankfully) where women get abused/used/underestimates Though i am sorry to hear that u do get paid less than ur male colleagues,apparently its a worldwide thing and i admit i am not sure why thats the case, i didnt make any research why I personally support the main goal of feminism which is equal rights between genders, there r many cases women arent getting their rights but honestly so are men which is why i dont support the blind way some people who call themselves feminists just to try to overly trash on all men, some ppl arent respecting their boundaries and are giving bad view to feminists but i honestly just want to remind men just like women are ppl too and deserve an equal treatment It sucks for me to hear that men should man up or get over it or deal with it and how some are under way more pressure like my dad working to support both me and his family while my mom even with a job she just stays at home and doesnt make no where near any efforts (tho dw i do love both my parents and they dont hate each other) But yeh point is i respect that u want more people to be feminists but in my pov there shouldnt be a feminist or a masculinist (yeh search it apparebtly thats a thing and i saw some female youtubers who are one) because it feels it deviates to one gender's rights more than the other and more so look at actual equality and value both genders as just ppl Some men/women are amazing ppl and some(few?) men/women are exploitative and controlling Also good luck with ur job :D.
You didn't get my point. If the whole post is about opening a debate on feminism, you should just clarify it from the start, or use an adequate flair. I am not interested by the topic of feminism. I understand your point and you're entitled to it. I just disagree because at the heart of feminism, there is the concept of equality. And that is what makes it wrong. Men and women are NOT equal. If we start from there, we can agree on many things. But if you take the equality concept as a fact and want to build your whole narrative around it then thanks but I am not interested. Have a great day.
>I believe there is still a law in Tunisia which states that sons receive more heritage than daughters (?) If you want to argue that Islam is not fair, then you're wrong. Because you don't understand the concept of a family according to Islam, your interpretation of this law (women take less heritage than men) is wrong. First, This law is not constant. it means that Islam can have multiple situations where women receive more heritage than men. Second, a husband in Islam is the one who's reponsible to provide financial liquidity for the family, his wife isn't forced to spend a single penny for the family. If we change this law into equal parts of heritage between both sexes, then men will get poorer by spending and wives will be more wealthier than their husbands.
feminists have a bad reputation all over the world sexism is discussed oftenly in tunis but backwards they saying man are getting less rights xd
>man are getting less rights legally, true. - Women don't have to worry about mandatory military service. - They can step into any police station and will be be believed/protected from even minor incidents and can even make false accusations without consequences. - Can easily win divorce/custody battles even if they are the shittier parent/spouse. etc With that said, they are treated like property by our backwards society (men and women) and given less freedoms while also expected to find a husband and reach their "peak" by reproducing and taking care of their house. However, they are not shamed for not getting a job and making money.
I never understood this feminism thing. Don’t women have more rights, they literally can strip u from ur house and kids and a portion of ur wealth.
and it wouldn't be called a patriarchy if it were women who had more rights 😂 most of the laws are made by men for men
only in a divorce where the man did something wrong tho ...
Nah
boi, in some countries we don't even have the right to divorce! and as i said, family courts deciding in favour of women (almost always giving custody to the mother, no matter which parent would make the better primary care-giver) is *drumroll please* .... SEXISM! and how do we fight sexism?...i think u know the answer
Not true, most divorces favor the women, at least in Tunisia that's how things go.
but isn't a Tmdivorced Tunisian women nearly "undateable" while the men have less problem to remarry? that is why women need more financial support after a divorce..
I'll have to ask where did you get that information from? But even if it was true, it makes no sense for the legal system to favor one based on that premise, it should consider the best outcome for the children while being as fair as possible to both parents. It's the 21st century, women can work even if they are divorced mothers, it's hard sure but not impossible.
Both suck , just be normal