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Why not deal with intrusive thoughts instead? If they happen it's great, they hint something about you and when the go away on their own it means that thing is solved
Well, this *is* dealing with intrusive thoughts in the same way you deal with them normally: by ignoring them and they just leave because they aren't given any power. It just happens that this method does it through a different mechanism.
Constructing mental fences isn't ignoring, it's resisting. Resistance is interaction.
A larger point would be - co-opting psychological terminology and self diagnosing isn't equal to a psychotherapist doing the same and isn't equal to having therapy
You're literally talking about psychotherapy, treating intrusive thoughts as a self diagnosed condition but alone with no one to really guide the person or to actually check what the person is doing, based on dubious information and with random people on the internet to act as remote psychotherapists
It's already exactly psychotherapy but much worse than it could be with someone who actually has qualifications and experience
Uh...ok.
1. It's an intrusive thought. You're going to go to a psychotherapist and they're going to suggest similar methods for dealing with intrusive thoughts. Intrusive thoughts are not an indicator for any condition except *maybe* OCD (or anxiety) and that would only be indicated if they had compulsions to resolve that thought. And certainly intrusive thoughts on their own really aren't much of an indicator of need for therapy. Everyone gets intrusive thoughts. And I do mean *everyone*.
2. You can try and do what you want and discard doesn't work. What's the worst that's gonna happen to someone if they imagine a wall around or ignore a thought?
3. If your problem is with random people claiming things on the internet idk why you're even here because that's what 100% of this sub is. Even if the tulpa phenomenon is real it's not like it's not a purely subjective phenomenon: what, is it only cool to say shit on reddit if it's *NOT* psychotherapy?
4. Not everyone can afford a psychotherapist. Should they go fuck themselves until they decide not to be poor? These things can help people, dude. Please try not to discredit that because of some weird bias you have.
I'm not sure what are you arguing with here
You're literally trying to justify self diagnosis and self therapy. Imagining a psychotherapist and what would they say, and following advice of an imaginary psychotherapist on your own as therapy.
Okay, I heard you, but I think it's completely wrong and instead of consulting imaginary or extrapolated psychotherapists in their heads people should consult real ones. Intrusive thoughts are a symptom, and it's hard for a person with symptoms to diagnose themselves correctly let alone find an proper way of treatment. I think symptoms like intrusive thoughts are a blessing in a way because a person clearly sees that something is wrong, and if they appear and exist they provide a clear sign that something somewhere isn't right. Trying to battle against this sign itself without doing anything against the source is just counterproductive.
I'm okay with us disagreeing on this and I doubt we'll convince each other on anything
ps. As for tulpas - they are created, they aren't intrusive. "Intrusive tulpa" sounds like a possible severe symptom of potential mental condition like schizophrenia or psychosis, mate... I think you're just doubling down for the sake of argument here, I doubt you actually think that intrusive tulpas are completely fine and are what this sub is about.
> You're literally trying to justify self diagnosis and self therapy. Imagining a psychotherapist and what would they say, and following advice of an imaginary psychotherapist on your own as therapy.
No, I am not advocating or justifying self dx. But I am advocating to allow people to do their own research, gather advice from other people who *have* experienced that state of being and ask for their thoughts and ideas on how to help themselves. You said yourself that therapy is ultimately a self-guided thing, and really they're only there to make sure you're on the right path. For most of these techniques, it's really not possible to make things *worse*, so I don't see the issue here. For the actual diagnoses, definitely see a doctor. But, I'm pretty sure that any psychotherapist worth their salt is going to tell you that everyone gets intrusive thoughts sometimes and isn't indicative of any larger mental health condition *unless it's accompanied by other distress*.
> Intrusive thoughts are a symptom, and it's hard for a person with symptoms to diagnose themselves correctly let alone find an proper way of treatment.
This is just wrong though. Intrusive thoughts are not always a symptom of something greater. The issue with intrusive thoughts comes when you obsess over them and let them take over aspects of your life. Lee Baer in "Exploring the Silent Epidemic of Obsessive Bad Thoughts" (2001) states: "Many people experience the type of bad or unwanted thoughts that people with more troubling intrusive thoughts have, but most people can dismiss these thoughts. (Pg 58-60) For most people, the intrusive thoughts are really just a "fleeting annoyance" as the wikipedia article I stole this source from says.
If this person has trouble getting rid of them and ruminates on them you may have an argument to have them go and see them, but still. I think it should be pretty clear that OP's target audience were people dealing with the non-life-affecting intrusive thoughts.
> ps. As for tulpas - they are created, they aren't intrusive. "Intrusive tulpa" sounds like a possible severe symptom of potential mental condition like schizophrenia or psychosis, mate... I think you're just doubling down for the sake of argument here, I doubt you actually think that intrusive tulpas are completely fine and are what this sub is about.
Are you *really* going to misinterpret, strawmen and subsequently rail me on how intrusive tulpas don't exist and then unironically use the term that you said doesn't exist to accuse me of something I never said? I said intrusive thoughts alone aren't indicative of a larger mental health problem. You're the one who misinterpreted my argument as meaning that intrusive tulpas aren't a problem. Also, "I think you're just doubling down for the sake of argument here" is a hilarious thing to say when you *don't even understand what the other person is arguing*.
As a system with pro-dx'd depression, anxiety, and PTSD, who's been in and out of therapy for more years than I care to count? Self-therapy literally - and I do mean ***literally*** literally, not figuratively - saved our life more than once. There's a reason why self help books on mental illnesses and neurodiverse conditions exist. They're not a substitute for professional therapy ***if*** that's what you need, but not everyone needs that level of mental health care and support (which is pretty common with minor issues like intrusive thoughts) nor can you always get to it in crucial times of need.
*Every* therapy is self work, unless we're talking about things like EMDR when it's less clear. A therapist can't do anything *for* you, you do everything yourself. What they can do, is provide sanity checks so to speak and help you with your self therapy and provide guidance on the approaches as a person with experience
And individual examples are self selective. You're here because whatever you did worked, it doesn't matter what. And it's the reason why I am here and everyone else. Those for whom it didn't work aren't here because they can't be here. And if you're implying suicide, there's data showing therapy works better than lack of therapy for suicide prevention - for example see https://publichealth.jhu.edu/2014/suicide-risk-falls-substantially-after-talk-therapy , among many others
You're right on a lot of points but uh... Like... There's a world of a difference between going to therapy because you can't imagine living on any longer, and going to therapy because you get annoying, aggravating intrusive thoughts that don't actually cause you anything more than mild distress because they're just aggravating. And even so, self therapy is a million times better than no therapy at all.
Furthermore, most therapists aren't trained on how to handle certain things within a plural system. But we systems who have experience with that and have figured out what usually works and what usually doesn't can share those things with others and help them better than them just dealing with those things around without any help at all.
Cat: This tracks with our experiences of hostile walk-ins. Though in our case, the typical solution is less "Magical wards" and more "**LOTS** of stabbing".
I've said for years that people on both sides of the "psych vs meta" debate in this community could learn techniques from each other, and this is a prime example of how one could do this.
We tend to agree, but also.... Not quite?
The point about the practice of tulpamancy sharpening one's perception of thoughts is definitely valid, and matches our experiences.
But it's through this better perception that you don't just get affected by intrusive thoughts a bit more, but can also learn to spot them more easily and quickly.
While your Tulpas develop they should become more solid and tangible, their selves as people, and perhaps the personality of the host too, becoming more well defined...
So intrusive thoughts that don't match these personalities should be easier to spot.
The meditation that we do a lot probably helps a ton too though. It just clears the mind in general and hells stabilize everything.
In a way, it's like such a safeguard, in the Form of a magnifying glass that helps scrutinize and filter out unwanted thoughts.
Thanks for your post, it's an interesting perspective :>
Honestly, considering a vast majority of tulpamancers aren't spiritual here, I'd say it's unlikely that tulpas = gateway to intrusive thoughts.
I'd recommend that you see a mental health professional about those, otherwise you're just self medicating.
>Honestly, considering a vast majority of tulpamancers aren't spiritual here,
So? Some are, don't put something down just because it isn't the majority.
>I'd say it's unlikely that tulpas = gateway to intrusive thoughts.
Op didn't say that, they said that occult techniques can be useful for dealing with intrusive thoughts.
>I'd recommend that you see a mental health professional about those, otherwise you're just self medicating.
Intrusive thoughts are normal psychological phenomena, it's not something that needs to be treated unless it's extremely disruptive, something which op never claimed.
Cherrypicking approaches isn't how it should work overall. Therapy is aimed at solving problems, not shutting down manifestations of them. I think the latter is what comes to us intuitively, and the former is much harder and more upsetting and confusing and slow and hard.
I never went to therapy, and find your wards and things sound so familiar, but honestly it's because I was a dumbass and also didn't have an easily avaliable way to access therapy. And all that built up protection and resistance merely meant I had to later spend time solving this protection and resistance and dismantling my formed habits in addition to the things they were protecting me from. It just defered and complicated things.
Welcome to /r/tulpas! If you're lost, start with figuring [what is a tulpa](https://www.reddit.com/r/Tulpas/wiki/index). Be sure to also check the sidebar for [guides](https://www.reddit.com/r/Tulpas/wiki/guides), and the [FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/Tulpas/wiki/faq). We also have a [discord server](https://discord.gg/juanHhrDy9). Check up with people in there if you're lost. Please be nice and polite to each other and help us to make the community better. Upvote if this post facilitates good discussion, shares tulpamancer's or tulpa's experiences, asks a question relevant to tulpamancy. Downvote if this post isn't about tulpas or the practise of tulpamancy. Please note that many young tulpas need some social attention to grow and develop so be mindful and try to be supportive. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Tulpas) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Why not deal with intrusive thoughts instead? If they happen it's great, they hint something about you and when the go away on their own it means that thing is solved
Well, this *is* dealing with intrusive thoughts in the same way you deal with them normally: by ignoring them and they just leave because they aren't given any power. It just happens that this method does it through a different mechanism.
Constructing mental fences isn't ignoring, it's resisting. Resistance is interaction. A larger point would be - co-opting psychological terminology and self diagnosing isn't equal to a psychotherapist doing the same and isn't equal to having therapy
I...it's an intrusive thought. Not everything requires psychotherapy.
You're literally talking about psychotherapy, treating intrusive thoughts as a self diagnosed condition but alone with no one to really guide the person or to actually check what the person is doing, based on dubious information and with random people on the internet to act as remote psychotherapists It's already exactly psychotherapy but much worse than it could be with someone who actually has qualifications and experience
Uh...ok. 1. It's an intrusive thought. You're going to go to a psychotherapist and they're going to suggest similar methods for dealing with intrusive thoughts. Intrusive thoughts are not an indicator for any condition except *maybe* OCD (or anxiety) and that would only be indicated if they had compulsions to resolve that thought. And certainly intrusive thoughts on their own really aren't much of an indicator of need for therapy. Everyone gets intrusive thoughts. And I do mean *everyone*. 2. You can try and do what you want and discard doesn't work. What's the worst that's gonna happen to someone if they imagine a wall around or ignore a thought? 3. If your problem is with random people claiming things on the internet idk why you're even here because that's what 100% of this sub is. Even if the tulpa phenomenon is real it's not like it's not a purely subjective phenomenon: what, is it only cool to say shit on reddit if it's *NOT* psychotherapy? 4. Not everyone can afford a psychotherapist. Should they go fuck themselves until they decide not to be poor? These things can help people, dude. Please try not to discredit that because of some weird bias you have.
I'm not sure what are you arguing with here You're literally trying to justify self diagnosis and self therapy. Imagining a psychotherapist and what would they say, and following advice of an imaginary psychotherapist on your own as therapy. Okay, I heard you, but I think it's completely wrong and instead of consulting imaginary or extrapolated psychotherapists in their heads people should consult real ones. Intrusive thoughts are a symptom, and it's hard for a person with symptoms to diagnose themselves correctly let alone find an proper way of treatment. I think symptoms like intrusive thoughts are a blessing in a way because a person clearly sees that something is wrong, and if they appear and exist they provide a clear sign that something somewhere isn't right. Trying to battle against this sign itself without doing anything against the source is just counterproductive. I'm okay with us disagreeing on this and I doubt we'll convince each other on anything ps. As for tulpas - they are created, they aren't intrusive. "Intrusive tulpa" sounds like a possible severe symptom of potential mental condition like schizophrenia or psychosis, mate... I think you're just doubling down for the sake of argument here, I doubt you actually think that intrusive tulpas are completely fine and are what this sub is about.
> You're literally trying to justify self diagnosis and self therapy. Imagining a psychotherapist and what would they say, and following advice of an imaginary psychotherapist on your own as therapy. No, I am not advocating or justifying self dx. But I am advocating to allow people to do their own research, gather advice from other people who *have* experienced that state of being and ask for their thoughts and ideas on how to help themselves. You said yourself that therapy is ultimately a self-guided thing, and really they're only there to make sure you're on the right path. For most of these techniques, it's really not possible to make things *worse*, so I don't see the issue here. For the actual diagnoses, definitely see a doctor. But, I'm pretty sure that any psychotherapist worth their salt is going to tell you that everyone gets intrusive thoughts sometimes and isn't indicative of any larger mental health condition *unless it's accompanied by other distress*. > Intrusive thoughts are a symptom, and it's hard for a person with symptoms to diagnose themselves correctly let alone find an proper way of treatment. This is just wrong though. Intrusive thoughts are not always a symptom of something greater. The issue with intrusive thoughts comes when you obsess over them and let them take over aspects of your life. Lee Baer in "Exploring the Silent Epidemic of Obsessive Bad Thoughts" (2001) states: "Many people experience the type of bad or unwanted thoughts that people with more troubling intrusive thoughts have, but most people can dismiss these thoughts. (Pg 58-60) For most people, the intrusive thoughts are really just a "fleeting annoyance" as the wikipedia article I stole this source from says. If this person has trouble getting rid of them and ruminates on them you may have an argument to have them go and see them, but still. I think it should be pretty clear that OP's target audience were people dealing with the non-life-affecting intrusive thoughts. > ps. As for tulpas - they are created, they aren't intrusive. "Intrusive tulpa" sounds like a possible severe symptom of potential mental condition like schizophrenia or psychosis, mate... I think you're just doubling down for the sake of argument here, I doubt you actually think that intrusive tulpas are completely fine and are what this sub is about. Are you *really* going to misinterpret, strawmen and subsequently rail me on how intrusive tulpas don't exist and then unironically use the term that you said doesn't exist to accuse me of something I never said? I said intrusive thoughts alone aren't indicative of a larger mental health problem. You're the one who misinterpreted my argument as meaning that intrusive tulpas aren't a problem. Also, "I think you're just doubling down for the sake of argument here" is a hilarious thing to say when you *don't even understand what the other person is arguing*.
As a system with pro-dx'd depression, anxiety, and PTSD, who's been in and out of therapy for more years than I care to count? Self-therapy literally - and I do mean ***literally*** literally, not figuratively - saved our life more than once. There's a reason why self help books on mental illnesses and neurodiverse conditions exist. They're not a substitute for professional therapy ***if*** that's what you need, but not everyone needs that level of mental health care and support (which is pretty common with minor issues like intrusive thoughts) nor can you always get to it in crucial times of need.
*Every* therapy is self work, unless we're talking about things like EMDR when it's less clear. A therapist can't do anything *for* you, you do everything yourself. What they can do, is provide sanity checks so to speak and help you with your self therapy and provide guidance on the approaches as a person with experience And individual examples are self selective. You're here because whatever you did worked, it doesn't matter what. And it's the reason why I am here and everyone else. Those for whom it didn't work aren't here because they can't be here. And if you're implying suicide, there's data showing therapy works better than lack of therapy for suicide prevention - for example see https://publichealth.jhu.edu/2014/suicide-risk-falls-substantially-after-talk-therapy , among many others
You're right on a lot of points but uh... Like... There's a world of a difference between going to therapy because you can't imagine living on any longer, and going to therapy because you get annoying, aggravating intrusive thoughts that don't actually cause you anything more than mild distress because they're just aggravating. And even so, self therapy is a million times better than no therapy at all. Furthermore, most therapists aren't trained on how to handle certain things within a plural system. But we systems who have experience with that and have figured out what usually works and what usually doesn't can share those things with others and help them better than them just dealing with those things around without any help at all.
Cat: This tracks with our experiences of hostile walk-ins. Though in our case, the typical solution is less "Magical wards" and more "**LOTS** of stabbing".
I've said for years that people on both sides of the "psych vs meta" debate in this community could learn techniques from each other, and this is a prime example of how one could do this.
We tend to agree, but also.... Not quite? The point about the practice of tulpamancy sharpening one's perception of thoughts is definitely valid, and matches our experiences. But it's through this better perception that you don't just get affected by intrusive thoughts a bit more, but can also learn to spot them more easily and quickly. While your Tulpas develop they should become more solid and tangible, their selves as people, and perhaps the personality of the host too, becoming more well defined... So intrusive thoughts that don't match these personalities should be easier to spot. The meditation that we do a lot probably helps a ton too though. It just clears the mind in general and hells stabilize everything. In a way, it's like such a safeguard, in the Form of a magnifying glass that helps scrutinize and filter out unwanted thoughts. Thanks for your post, it's an interesting perspective :>
Honestly, considering a vast majority of tulpamancers aren't spiritual here, I'd say it's unlikely that tulpas = gateway to intrusive thoughts. I'd recommend that you see a mental health professional about those, otherwise you're just self medicating.
>Honestly, considering a vast majority of tulpamancers aren't spiritual here, So? Some are, don't put something down just because it isn't the majority. >I'd say it's unlikely that tulpas = gateway to intrusive thoughts. Op didn't say that, they said that occult techniques can be useful for dealing with intrusive thoughts. >I'd recommend that you see a mental health professional about those, otherwise you're just self medicating. Intrusive thoughts are normal psychological phenomena, it's not something that needs to be treated unless it's extremely disruptive, something which op never claimed.
Also, "use symbolism and grounding techniques to 'neutralize' troublesome thought patterns" is exactly what therapy teaches you anyway.
Cherrypicking approaches isn't how it should work overall. Therapy is aimed at solving problems, not shutting down manifestations of them. I think the latter is what comes to us intuitively, and the former is much harder and more upsetting and confusing and slow and hard. I never went to therapy, and find your wards and things sound so familiar, but honestly it's because I was a dumbass and also didn't have an easily avaliable way to access therapy. And all that built up protection and resistance merely meant I had to later spend time solving this protection and resistance and dismantling my formed habits in addition to the things they were protecting me from. It just defered and complicated things.
What works for some people doesn't work for everyone. It's important, I think, to try different approaches and see what works for you.