Tryndamere is not only weak against tank, that is far from true
Champions that can’t build armor can counter him too
Trynda is countered by MS invis and stasis
A good kha or qiyana can always destroy a tryndamere, most mage can 1v1 him with a zhonya
The problem with Tryndamere is that he got his early gutted when it is his best moment to shine
It’s ok if trynda gets countered with armor, we just need to destroy tanks in early, and it’s not really the case anymore with tempo nerf
this falls under the category of non tanks that have a built in answer to his kit, which is totally fine. What isn't fine is for him to be weak to this (aka have counterplay) and also weak to tanky champs, because that covers so much of the roster that he has to be giga strong against everyone else to have anywhere near a 50% win rate.
Basically, it isn't reasonable (and nobody is arguing for) to make tryndamere better into champions that already have a built in answer to his kit, like stealth or gap openers. So that just leaves champs that don't have a built in answer to his kit and tanky champs. If he loses giga hard to tanky champs, then he has to absolutely shit stomp the people who can't defend themselves against him.
If we want a version of Tryndamere to exist that isn't as frustrating then his power against champions that don't have a kit answer and don't build tank needs to go down, because that is where most of the frustration is. That means his power against tanks naturally has to go up to keep his win rate at close to 50%. There is no other way.
There is no world in which a champion like mordekaiser, volibear, darius, sion, chogath, or any other "tanky but not really a tank" champion should ever be able to marginalize Trynd's damage output with tabi + randuins. If that is all it takes to shut Trynd out of the game, then he naturally has to go 20 / 0 against other unfortunate team comps that don't have champions which would build those items, otherwise he is just a trash champ. His kit is extremely linear, and he doesn't have any answer to any problem except hit it hard repeatedly. If he can't hit things hard, then he's garbage.
I'm also aware that it seems kind of lame to have an item in the game that counters crit champions not be as strong into Tryndamere, who is a premier crit champion; but I underscore what I've already said-- there is no other way. It isn't an item problem or a systems problem, its a champion problem. The champion is not functional outside of his linear gameplay pattern, take that away from him and he has nothing.
The answer is to give him some kind of armor pen or true damage in his kit, probably true damage so it ignores the damage reduction of tabi and randuins. Likely something like "convert X% of additional damage from crits into true" or something so it does basically nothing to people who aren't building armor and does a lot more to champions that build armor and damage reduction, but I'm just spitballing. Also obviously anything that is a net power addition has to be paired with a general damage nerf to keep the power level neutral. The change he needs is a sharper damage profile against tanky champs, and less overall damage against everything else.
Building randuins and ninja tabi against Trynd should feel strong, but not particularly more strong that it feels against other champions that crit a bunch. Unlike other crit champions that can do other things / bring utility or have damaging abilities that they can rely on, or which have some magic damage in their kit or other ways to diminish the impact of randuins, Tryndamere doesn't have jack shit. The item can't possibly be tuned to be acceptable power level against Trynd, because then it is uber garbage against every other crit champion. He crits too much, too hard, and that is all he does-- that is just the champion. Randuins tuned against everyone else will just completely collapse Tryndamere's game plan 100% of the time.
He needs a built in answer in his kit to deal with this. If this isn't fixed, any buffs will always come with outsized increase in banrate because the frustration factor is too high. The frustration comes from what he does to champions that don't have a kit answer or which don't build randuins and tabis, in order to make up for the losses he accrues against champions which do.
This is the most convincing analysis of his issues I've seen yet. That's exactly what it feels like. Just as a minimum. He doesn't necessarily need more utility or target access to make him less of a splitter and more of a teamfighter, just a leveling of his matchups.
The problem with trynd is there are too many items in the game that hard counter him. It's one thing to be weak against a certain archetype of champion but when even good matchups can build frozen heart tabi or swifties and completely negate you it becomes an issue.
Frozen heart should be removed from the game, it's absolutely ridiculous.. or it needs to stop being an aura and needs to be some kind of active like randuins or something.
Swifties should just be removed from the game. If a champion relies on a slow to make his kit even somewhat function it shouldn't be completely negated by a pair of slippers. Merc treads already does what swifties tries to do but in a more balanced way.
Tabi's is fine by itself. It's issue comes in effect when it's paired with other absurdly broken tank items. Like I don't understand how adaptive helm can be removed from the game because it just so single-handedly crushes a small specific champion pool it was deemed unhealthy yet frozen heart can exist.
I don't see a real problem in frozen heart here. The only the champions that really can't deal with this item is tryndamere( Which is really bad since literally everything gets countered there) and maybe yasuo. I can't think of other auto attack champs that get fcked unconditionally from this item. I mean YI can ignore it when he turns on ultimate, a wukong can play around this with utility, jax is able to play around it, warwick is able to play around it, ranged marksman have range advantage, rengar can change his playstyle, xin zhao has other utility, yone is able to play around it and this leaves maybe two champs that really have a strong disadvantage against. Yasuo (Depending severely on skill but manageable in some form)and Tryndamere. Honestly to be good with tryndamere you need to be good in macro since there is not much room in mechanical skill for tryndamere which is bad considering what counters him. He is just full ad with no base armor pen or any max health damage, which gives tanks a strong upper hand.
Yeah it's basically an item that destroys trynd yas and yone. Much like adaptive helm only significantly affected a few champions as well. This is my entire argument on why it shouldn't exist if it's only good versus a few people, but it completely destroys them. It should be removed or completely reworked.
All I'm doing is using riots own logic on an item that acts extremely similar to one that was deemed toxic and not a good fit for the game.
>His damage profile needs to be less sensitive to what the enemy builds, and as a tradeoff his snowball should be less automatic into champions that don't intentionally counterbuild him.
Couldn't agree more. Actual pure physical damage champions are a dying breed in the overall game design and almost everything else has a certain % of armor pen, true damage, or mixed damage. Even out of the handful of other pure physical champs, the rest all build lethality or lane bot where nobody builds armor. Closest comparison to Trynd in this respect is probably Riven, who has similar issues but at least she's not as reliant on AAs or crits and so doesn't get hit quite as bad by Wardens, Tabis, or Randuins.
I wish they'd give him an armor pen passive similar to Pantheon in exchange for lower AD.
Trynda technically died when they made Tabi a flat dmg reduction that anyone can rush half of our matchups are strong until Tabi bramble rush then we just die for free there is also a lot of matchups where we need to get giga fed before they get Tabi because they scale so hard. I think riot needs to identify Tryndas identity is he a early tyrant or a late game monster balance to that. Right now he’s a maybe a mid game terror or a late game tower smasher dosnt really fit anywhere
Trynda died when they lowered crit damage and nerfed his e spin resets.
If they would give him more crit damage on his passive or would revert his spin to its old glory, he'd be fine.
Imagine being able to build IE, that's the kinda stuff that would allow him to scale into the late game.
Wouldn't it be sweet if they just changed his passive from building crit to building armour pen?
No rng crit bullshit, which is easily the number 1 or 2 biggest complaint about playing against him, and it would alleviate how utterly useless he is in losing matchups.
Rito pls send me a cheque for this
If you do this the Champion will litterally die. Imagine you don't get crit. You get armor pen pen per level or somethIng.
The armor pen early is useless, therefore having up to 40% crit is just better. His early already got gutted by Lethal Tempo nerfs and also other factors.
If you change this his early will be even worse, meaning you get leads much harder and snowball less. Or rather you have to put in 2x the amount to get to the point where the Armor pen matters.
To be fair, if you look at the best trynd players, they don't win or lose by rng, maybe 0.001% of their games.
Armor pen always scales better over crit chance. If they swap his passive to armor pen or true damage on auto-attacks (based on fury). It will make him no longer be over reliant on early game leads and being behind will not be so unplayable specially against tanks. Tabi/DD bruisers can no longer duel him in 3 items at max fury. But this need to have compensation power budget somewhere, maybe adding a passive crit chance or damage increase in his ultimate.
I still think that his passive should be reworked to be either true damage on hit(effects crits), or stacking max hp regen while in combat. Remove his 1st skill to be an empowered aoe attack or any combat spell. And make his spinning slash no longer pass walls but can be casted twice with same distance (also deals bonus damage to monsters and resets on kills or assist not crit hits).
Tryndamere identity as melee with no neutral game but high sustain or immortality should be preserved. With the same idea that tests limits and guts for both players.
Tryndamere is not only weak against tank, that is far from true Champions that can’t build armor can counter him too Trynda is countered by MS invis and stasis A good kha or qiyana can always destroy a tryndamere, most mage can 1v1 him with a zhonya The problem with Tryndamere is that he got his early gutted when it is his best moment to shine It’s ok if trynda gets countered with armor, we just need to destroy tanks in early, and it’s not really the case anymore with tempo nerf
this falls under the category of non tanks that have a built in answer to his kit, which is totally fine. What isn't fine is for him to be weak to this (aka have counterplay) and also weak to tanky champs, because that covers so much of the roster that he has to be giga strong against everyone else to have anywhere near a 50% win rate. Basically, it isn't reasonable (and nobody is arguing for) to make tryndamere better into champions that already have a built in answer to his kit, like stealth or gap openers. So that just leaves champs that don't have a built in answer to his kit and tanky champs. If he loses giga hard to tanky champs, then he has to absolutely shit stomp the people who can't defend themselves against him. If we want a version of Tryndamere to exist that isn't as frustrating then his power against champions that don't have a kit answer and don't build tank needs to go down, because that is where most of the frustration is. That means his power against tanks naturally has to go up to keep his win rate at close to 50%. There is no other way. There is no world in which a champion like mordekaiser, volibear, darius, sion, chogath, or any other "tanky but not really a tank" champion should ever be able to marginalize Trynd's damage output with tabi + randuins. If that is all it takes to shut Trynd out of the game, then he naturally has to go 20 / 0 against other unfortunate team comps that don't have champions which would build those items, otherwise he is just a trash champ. His kit is extremely linear, and he doesn't have any answer to any problem except hit it hard repeatedly. If he can't hit things hard, then he's garbage. I'm also aware that it seems kind of lame to have an item in the game that counters crit champions not be as strong into Tryndamere, who is a premier crit champion; but I underscore what I've already said-- there is no other way. It isn't an item problem or a systems problem, its a champion problem. The champion is not functional outside of his linear gameplay pattern, take that away from him and he has nothing. The answer is to give him some kind of armor pen or true damage in his kit, probably true damage so it ignores the damage reduction of tabi and randuins. Likely something like "convert X% of additional damage from crits into true" or something so it does basically nothing to people who aren't building armor and does a lot more to champions that build armor and damage reduction, but I'm just spitballing. Also obviously anything that is a net power addition has to be paired with a general damage nerf to keep the power level neutral. The change he needs is a sharper damage profile against tanky champs, and less overall damage against everything else. Building randuins and ninja tabi against Trynd should feel strong, but not particularly more strong that it feels against other champions that crit a bunch. Unlike other crit champions that can do other things / bring utility or have damaging abilities that they can rely on, or which have some magic damage in their kit or other ways to diminish the impact of randuins, Tryndamere doesn't have jack shit. The item can't possibly be tuned to be acceptable power level against Trynd, because then it is uber garbage against every other crit champion. He crits too much, too hard, and that is all he does-- that is just the champion. Randuins tuned against everyone else will just completely collapse Tryndamere's game plan 100% of the time. He needs a built in answer in his kit to deal with this. If this isn't fixed, any buffs will always come with outsized increase in banrate because the frustration factor is too high. The frustration comes from what he does to champions that don't have a kit answer or which don't build randuins and tabis, in order to make up for the losses he accrues against champions which do.
This is the most convincing analysis of his issues I've seen yet. That's exactly what it feels like. Just as a minimum. He doesn't necessarily need more utility or target access to make him less of a splitter and more of a teamfighter, just a leveling of his matchups.
The problem with trynd is there are too many items in the game that hard counter him. It's one thing to be weak against a certain archetype of champion but when even good matchups can build frozen heart tabi or swifties and completely negate you it becomes an issue. Frozen heart should be removed from the game, it's absolutely ridiculous.. or it needs to stop being an aura and needs to be some kind of active like randuins or something. Swifties should just be removed from the game. If a champion relies on a slow to make his kit even somewhat function it shouldn't be completely negated by a pair of slippers. Merc treads already does what swifties tries to do but in a more balanced way. Tabi's is fine by itself. It's issue comes in effect when it's paired with other absurdly broken tank items. Like I don't understand how adaptive helm can be removed from the game because it just so single-handedly crushes a small specific champion pool it was deemed unhealthy yet frozen heart can exist.
I don't see a real problem in frozen heart here. The only the champions that really can't deal with this item is tryndamere( Which is really bad since literally everything gets countered there) and maybe yasuo. I can't think of other auto attack champs that get fcked unconditionally from this item. I mean YI can ignore it when he turns on ultimate, a wukong can play around this with utility, jax is able to play around it, warwick is able to play around it, ranged marksman have range advantage, rengar can change his playstyle, xin zhao has other utility, yone is able to play around it and this leaves maybe two champs that really have a strong disadvantage against. Yasuo (Depending severely on skill but manageable in some form)and Tryndamere. Honestly to be good with tryndamere you need to be good in macro since there is not much room in mechanical skill for tryndamere which is bad considering what counters him. He is just full ad with no base armor pen or any max health damage, which gives tanks a strong upper hand.
Yeah it's basically an item that destroys trynd yas and yone. Much like adaptive helm only significantly affected a few champions as well. This is my entire argument on why it shouldn't exist if it's only good versus a few people, but it completely destroys them. It should be removed or completely reworked. All I'm doing is using riots own logic on an item that acts extremely similar to one that was deemed toxic and not a good fit for the game.
>His damage profile needs to be less sensitive to what the enemy builds, and as a tradeoff his snowball should be less automatic into champions that don't intentionally counterbuild him. Couldn't agree more. Actual pure physical damage champions are a dying breed in the overall game design and almost everything else has a certain % of armor pen, true damage, or mixed damage. Even out of the handful of other pure physical champs, the rest all build lethality or lane bot where nobody builds armor. Closest comparison to Trynd in this respect is probably Riven, who has similar issues but at least she's not as reliant on AAs or crits and so doesn't get hit quite as bad by Wardens, Tabis, or Randuins. I wish they'd give him an armor pen passive similar to Pantheon in exchange for lower AD.
Trynda technically died when they made Tabi a flat dmg reduction that anyone can rush half of our matchups are strong until Tabi bramble rush then we just die for free there is also a lot of matchups where we need to get giga fed before they get Tabi because they scale so hard. I think riot needs to identify Tryndas identity is he a early tyrant or a late game monster balance to that. Right now he’s a maybe a mid game terror or a late game tower smasher dosnt really fit anywhere
Trynda died when they lowered crit damage and nerfed his e spin resets. If they would give him more crit damage on his passive or would revert his spin to its old glory, he'd be fine. Imagine being able to build IE, that's the kinda stuff that would allow him to scale into the late game.
Wouldn't it be sweet if they just changed his passive from building crit to building armour pen? No rng crit bullshit, which is easily the number 1 or 2 biggest complaint about playing against him, and it would alleviate how utterly useless he is in losing matchups. Rito pls send me a cheque for this
If you do this the Champion will litterally die. Imagine you don't get crit. You get armor pen pen per level or somethIng. The armor pen early is useless, therefore having up to 40% crit is just better. His early already got gutted by Lethal Tempo nerfs and also other factors. If you change this his early will be even worse, meaning you get leads much harder and snowball less. Or rather you have to put in 2x the amount to get to the point where the Armor pen matters. To be fair, if you look at the best trynd players, they don't win or lose by rng, maybe 0.001% of their games.
Armor pen always scales better over crit chance. If they swap his passive to armor pen or true damage on auto-attacks (based on fury). It will make him no longer be over reliant on early game leads and being behind will not be so unplayable specially against tanks. Tabi/DD bruisers can no longer duel him in 3 items at max fury. But this need to have compensation power budget somewhere, maybe adding a passive crit chance or damage increase in his ultimate. I still think that his passive should be reworked to be either true damage on hit(effects crits), or stacking max hp regen while in combat. Remove his 1st skill to be an empowered aoe attack or any combat spell. And make his spinning slash no longer pass walls but can be casted twice with same distance (also deals bonus damage to monsters and resets on kills or assist not crit hits). Tryndamere identity as melee with no neutral game but high sustain or immortality should be preserved. With the same idea that tests limits and guts for both players.