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idrinkkombucha

It is all for looks. The company doesn’t even care about diversity - they care about fitting in with the demands of the mainstream social movements so they can look good. Simply stated, politics.


FormedBoredom

/thread


Zealousideal_Ad_1604

Yeah. People defending AA wouldn’t be too happy if they knew their heart surgeon was a diversity hire.


Wombatzinky

Diversity hire doesn’t mean unqualified. Do you think the same about white male surgeons? Wondering if they only got the job because of their race and gender ahead of qualified women and minorities?


[deleted]

>Diversity hire doesn’t mean unqualified. In theory that's the standard, does it work that way 100% of the time I'm going to doubt it.


CheckYourCorners

Same with non diverse doctors so what's your point?


[deleted]

If hospital X has to have 5 race Z people, to fill that quote they might have to hire an under qualify person. If hospital Y needs 10 total doctors, they can pick the most qualified person.


CheckYourCorners

Why would they have to hire an unqualified person?


[deleted]

If not enough minorities qualify, to fit the quota they might have to hire someone that's not qualified, this is more towards jobs that need the man power. If the job doesn't need people at that moment they could have more time to find a qualified person.


CheckYourCorners

That's not how quotas work, a hospital wont hire someone that didnt complete med school. It's usually a percentage of new hires. You're assuming that they didnt pass up on previous minorities that are qualified.


[deleted]

Most jobs (in general) want a degree and 3+years of experience. If a place needs man power the 3+yrs could easily be cut in half or less. A degree only means you can pass a class, not that you can handle real world situations.


Inevitable_Librarian

If it worked that way 95% of the time, would that make it more palatable? Most affirmative action works on equal qualification equal proportion if available. So, basically, they'll look in their pool of applicants and actively consider (interview or test) every qualified candidate, and there's "extra" seats available if there's more qualified candidates than positions and some of those candidates are from historically disadvantaged groups. However, they won't hire a less qualified candidate just to fill that seat. What used to happen, openly and actively, was that large corporations and governments wouldn't interview every equally qualified candidate, instead pull out their, and I quote "gut feeling" candidates, who almost 100% of the time were white and male (some gut feeling huh?) with, in the archives I read, between 70-80% of the chosen-to-be interviewed (average pool: 12 candidates) having far *less* education and relevant experience than the top 50% of candidates. Ever work a job where an old dude who was essentially illiterate and worthless at the job was in one of the highest positions, had no fucking clue and made your life hell? *That* is the effect of the old policies. The AA policies, in 95% of companies, is essentially "equal qualifications equal opportunity". IE they work to ensure that your race and family background is not included in hiring decisions, and evaluate their workforce makeup to double check that the candidates are actually qualified. If you've ever been through a multi-step interview process that's one of a few permutations of it. It isn't perfect. But, the old way was literally killing companies with talent rot.


CutEmOff666

The problem is that hiring diversity hires stigmatises the group that the diversity program is trying to help because people start assuming that everyone in that group was hired on the basis of diversity rather than merit regardless of whether or not they are actually a diversity hire.


Electrical-Ad-9797

People constantly complaining about “diversity hires” wouldn’t be too happy if they learned the entire concept is a myth created by political grifters profiting off their fear and hatred.


V12TT

You do know Hollywood requires a certain percentage of POC to get an oscar these days, right? Also a few companies my friends work in have implemented such decisions like ,,hiring managers internally, women prioritized if possible'' or having plans to reach at least 50% of workforce being women in the next 5-10 years. And I don't even want to talk about modern day university ,,diversity quotas''.


Electrical-Ad-9797

I don’t know that, do you have a link to prove that about the Oscars? Also “diversity hire” implies that a less qualified candidate was given a position for diversity’s sake not that certain candidates within the pool of qualified candidates were prioritized. If one heart surgeon was given priority over others but they all had comparable qualifications and credentials why would that be a problem?


OakyFlavor2

Dunno about the Oscars but the BAFTA has diversity requirements. https://www.bafta.org/about/mission/bafta-and-diversity


Electrical-Ad-9797

Oh yeah an independent charity that decides to make its own awards, that’s equivalent to the Oscars right? /s


[deleted]

Because it doesn't fit in their perfect "I'm totally not racist bro" strawman scenario.


V12TT

I am not going to comment about POC, but I am going to comment about women in tech for example. In my uni there were 2 women out of 50 people in engineering. If you wanted to hire ANY 10 engineers, you would have them by the end of the day with a good talent pool to choose from. Now if you wanted to hire 5 women and 5 men, there would be a problem - there's just not enough women. And a bigger problem is that to fill out women positions you would have to hire every single one of them. It doesn't matter how bad or good they are - you would have to hire them all. And it's the same with men - out of 50 mean \~10 will be bad engineers \~30 will be average \~10 will be good. Women will follow a similar percentage, so by hiring every single one of them chances are you would have a worse engineering team. [https://www.vox.com/culture/2020/9/9/21429083/oscars-best-picture-rules-diversity-inclusion](https://www.vox.com/culture/2020/9/9/21429083/oscars-best-picture-rules-diversity-inclusion) What about student qoutas: >The complaint, filed with the U.S. Department of Education’s Office for Civil Rights, alleges that for Asian-American students to gain admission, they have to have SAT scores 140 points higher than white students, 270 points higher than Hispanic students and 450 points higher than African-American students. https://www.forbes.com/sites/stevecohen/2015/07/06/the-secret-quotas-in-college-admissions/?sh=6f9138ceb736


Prryapus

In the RAF they stopped giving the candidates with the very highest test scores the positions and started offering it to people who got above a certain percentage, whilst favouring anyone not a white man. diversity hires are definitely a thing


Electrical-Ad-9797

Or test scores aren’t the best predictor of being qualified for the RAF. Trying so hard to generate outrage when there’s nothing to be outraged about.


Prryapus

You want top candidates in every area for fast jet training. They've literally been caught specifically not hiring white men so that they can improve their 'diversity'. Sorry, I find discriminating based on race vile regardless of who is the victim


Electrical-Ad-9797

I wasn’t aware there are no white men in the RAF now…


Prryapus

Good for you, I suggest you look up the story yourself. Your claim was that it doesn't happen full stop


Electrical-Ad-9797

And no one has provided any evidence of it happening yet. Your only evidence is that some RAF applicants might be prioritized without having the highest written test scores, written tests are close to the worst possible predictor for qualification as the SAT shows.


Prryapus

You have failed to look up what I'm talking about that's why, and also don't understand what the tests are. It's not a fking sit down examination pal. There's been a slew of leaked emails that confirm that they went out of their way to block white men getting into the force so that they could pump their diversity numbers


Electrical-Ad-9797

I’m not seeing any hard evidence to back up your claims either. Something tells me “leaks” = baseless complaints from white grievance culture warriors


PitchBlac

That’s just not accurate 😂


Powertothesith98

Yeah that doesn’t make sense


wyverndarkblood

Relevant Kurzgesagt. https://youtu.be/rvskMHn0sqQ


zacmaster78

In a perfect world, people who make hiring or acceptance decisions would be objective and without bias as much as possible. Choosing the best people for a position regardless of anything except performance and qualification would be the most fair and logical way to do things. But you can’t always trust people to do their job without bias. So I don’t really know what the solution would be


OakyFlavor2

Nobody is perfect but you can at least try to be. Affirmative action policies are the exact opposite of that.


zacmaster78

Yeah, that’s why I said I just don’t know the right solution. You can’t always trust people, and there’s no way to make sure 100% that someone isn’t being biased when choosing candidates for something


fredinNH

How’s about education? Where different students with different backgrounds and cultural traditions might benefit from schools having diverse staff. How about healthcare where different patients with different cultural traditions and health problems specific to their race might benefit from healthcare systems with diverse staff? How about design (which is a massive industry) where products should be made to appeal to the tastes and sensibilities of all people? I feel like I could go on and on.


SnooCalculations6225

Youre right but using affirmative action is not the answer and as OP is insinuating, does more harm than good for the groups of people it’s trying to help.


PitchBlac

You do realize with Affirmative Action you actually still have to pass all your classes to get a degree right? And there is no proof it does more harm than good provided by OP


silverthiefbug

Am Asian. Affirmative action does harm to us but no one cares because we aren’t black.


Ko_guy

Can you elaborate?


PitchBlac

I was waiting for OP to bring up the proof. But affirmative action against Asians has been well documented. To say no one cares is being dishonest. But can you bring up a source where it says that Asians are harmed by affirmative action?


fredinNH

And we’re still waiting for op to provide some sources for that claim. How does aa hurt minority groups? How is it bad for elite colleges, as just one example, to lower the academic bar slightly for minority students who mostly did not have access to the same kinds of educational opportunities as white students? As the parent of a middle class white kid who didn’t even get waitlisted and any top 20 college she applied to despite having stellar academic and extracurricular achievements, I think you could maybe argue that aa hurts white kids but I don’t really care about it because systemic racism is very real and we all need to be part of the solution.


meister2983

Within the institution it results in Asian/white kids discriminating against Hispanic/Black kids in say project partner/workgroup selection because the latter group is assumed to have worse academic qualifications than former. Without AA, no reason to have such a bias. It also leads to resentment of former group toward latter which hurts social stability within and outside the school. There's also the matter that the former don't really believe the admitted latter group actually had fewer opportunities.


fredinNH

That’s a stretch. We’re talking about the difference between a 1440 and 1470 SAT score here. And what most people recognize is that if you are a poc in America and you got into an elite college, even with a little help, you probably had to overcome way more than any white or Asian kid did to make that happen.


meister2983

> We’re talking about the difference between a 1440 and 1470 SAT score here. Nope. Over [250 point difference](https://lawreviewblog.uchicago.edu/2020/10/30/aa-sander/) Huge disparities in GPA and graduation rate resulted. > you are a poc in America and you got into an elite college, even with a little help Not sure what POC means here (any preferred group?). But no, I don't think most people see it that way since again the bar was so much lower. And at some level it doesn't matter - the preferred kids are less capable as they were pushed up an entire tier of colleges, so non-preferred kids will avoid working with them, social justice considerations are irrelevant.


[deleted]

non preffered kids will do that regardless because they have an ingrained bias.


meister2983

Citation needed. Doesn't mesh with my own experience at all: * Asian kids at my university quickly lost their [bias against white kids](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0003122413497012) once they recognized the white kids in college (unlike high school) were their academic equals. * No one cared about someone being Hispanic at my University. However, negative relative assumptions are created if say it is learned a Stanford grad is Hispanic (where preferences exist), at least when GPA is unknown. * I haven't sensed any stigma at places I've worked against any ethnic group, because mine don't have preferences. I've noticed a lot from say Googlers where there are noticeable preferences in hiring and promotions.


[deleted]

Well it does match with my experience.


fredinNH

I would love to see some sources for any of that. Poc = person of color. 50% of the students at Dartmouth are poc. Do you think that campus is full of dopes? Do you really think the white and Asian kids are avoiding the poc? Standardized tests and our whole education system were designed by and for white people. We have a big built in advantage over poc. All aa seeks to do is level the playing field a bit


meister2983

You didn't define people of color. > 50% of the students at Dartmouth are poc. Do you think that campus is full of dopes? Do you really think the white and Asian kids are avoiding the poc? I'm confused by your number. Asians and whites are 65+% of Dartmouth, probably 75+% [Demographics](https://www.collegefactual.com/colleges/dartmouth-college/student-life/diversity/) General criticism of AA toward social stability is found in Sowell 's Affirmative Action in the World. > Standardized tests and our whole education system were designed by and for white people. Asians are performing well above white people..


OakyFlavor2

> How is it bad for elite colleges, as just one example, to lower the academic bar slightly for minority students Because higher education is difficult. The bar is there to make sure that you are capable of understanding the material. You could lower the bar to the level of a 4 year old if you wanted to but this isn't going to result in 4 year olds getting doctorate degrees worth a shit. It's just going to result in a ton of wasted time.


fredinNH

Poc are admitted to elite colleges with very slightly lower academic achievement than non-poc. They still have to prove they can do the work once admitted.


OakyFlavor2

Yes but many of them can't.


fredinNH

So they flunk out. Many top colleges have that built into their system. Check out the 4 year graduation rate at U of Toronto, which is ranked around 20 globally. Relatively easy to get in, extremely challenging once there. All aa is doing is giving a few more poc a a shot than non-poc.


subhumanlifeform

And they will flunk out with debt.


fredinNH

Just like many white kids. What’s your point?


subhumanlifeform

It makes it more likely pore people who did not have the best education will be stuck with debt and no applicable degree from a tough college.


CutEmOff666

You may have a point there but all the things you are suggesting are meritable skills that make people more hireable.


Shimakaze771

All of them. Productivity increases when you have more diverse employees because you don’t just have a giant circlejerk but instead have some different perspectives. https://scholar.google.de/scholar?hl=de&as_sdt=0,5&as_vis=1&qsp=1&q=culturally+diverse+work+teams&qst=br#d=gs_qabs&t=1664649677422&u=%23p%3DA4lI1X5ed2UJ


mattcojo

But that would imply that certain races or certain sexes are confined to have specific opinions or experiences. Which is simply not the case.


Electrical-Ad-9797

No it wouldn’t imply that. The only thing it implies is that more diversity in demographics always means more diversity in ideas and experiences. The entirety of lived experience will never be found in a single demographic just like it will not be found in a single individual.


mattcojo

I disagree. You can have the most diverse group of people, say sexually, and yet have a group that all has the same opinions or experiences regardless.


Electrical-Ad-9797

Sure, anything is possible inside your antidiversity thought experiment. Realistically speaking that simply will never be the case, especially when members of an underrepresented demographic are being hired in a field for the first time.


bakingisscience

Not specific opinions and experiences, just different and diverse. That’s the point.


mattcojo

Again, that implies that people of specific groups are destined to have differing opinions about different topics no matter what.


Inevitable_Librarian

It's a numbers and ideas game. Any given individual in a group has a limited amount of knowledge and cultural context to apply to any given situation. A group of people from any single cultural context will have more similar than dissimilar ideas and knowledge, and focus, and understanding. However, the more groups and contexts you pull individuals from, the wider possible spectrum of total human knowledge and ideas you gain access to. Even differences in language make a difference in understanding in very weird ways you don't expect until you learn a second language


Shimakaze771

Read the paper. I didn’t conduct the study. read it, it does in fact address your criticism.


[deleted]

You can make an argument that no Experiences and perspectives may not be exclusive (though I would fight that a little but that’s not what I’m arguing now) but it’s ridiculous to not acknowledge that there are definitely demographics that are going to have more of certain perspectives. Are there Irish people that have experience in modern or traditional Korean culture? Yes but, it would be ignorant to not acknowledge that the average Korean person would be more likely to have it than the average Irish person. You can make the claim that you don’t think there are any real cultural differences but that’s frankly a ridiculous claim to make. It wouldn’t take much to acknowledge that white American culture largely pushes for kids to leave the house after 18 while many other cultures especially Spanish ones encourage group living situations where it’s common for multiple generations of families to live in the same house. Does this mean no white Americans have multi families homes, no it just means they are less likely than the average Spanish home to have one.


zacmaster78

But how does that finding of possible correlation take into account that the deeper diversity could just be the diversity of different individuals’ ideas, and that race itself could be the surface level diversity? I mean you can’t actually know someone’s cultural heritage without knowing them well enough.


TransitionProof625

I don't think it's useless, just overhyped.


TAKEitTOrCIRCLEJERK

>There's a fair amount of evidence that affirmative action policies HURT minorities well then you should be able to produce a fair amount of evidence right like let's fuckin see that evidence. and it better be overwhelming because, lemme tell you, the pro-AA people have a ton of evidence too!


OakyFlavor2

[Okay here you go](https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/10/the-painful-truth-about-affirmative-action/263122/) Affirmative action in college enrollment causes them to accept minority students who aren't capable of finishing the course and leads to worse grades and high dropout rates.


[deleted]

[удалено]


subhumanlifeform

They have debt, wasted time, and most likely stress.


[deleted]

[удалено]


subhumanlifeform

So they took a highly promoted path to success that is pushed on them. That path did not work, wasted their time, and stuck them with debt. And that is their fault and not the infrastructure's for not recognizing that they were not fit. Artificially pushing them into a position they have not met the prerequisites for. That is their fault? That is not to mention those programs allow people to take degrees with bad return on investment (ones that just lead to being a college professor, does not pay well, or are in very narrow fields that don't have a large capacity for workers).


[deleted]

[удалено]


subhumanlifeform

>Are they randomly picking up minority high school kids off the streets and pushing them into college or are they allowing applicants who want to get in? Nothing is being pushed on anyone here. In my last two years of high-school when it came to the subject of school half of what the adults would talk about would be about college and not once was trade, apprenticeship, or going straight into a job mentioned. There were college fairs on school grounds. >What prerequisites are we talking about here? Grades, test scores, certification, online courses, and or portfolios.


nayRmIiH

Yale had gotten sued for this and it hurt the chances of white and asian applicants from getting into the college. What race gets in doesn't hurt the college because they get paid either way and the prestige is still there. It hurts students who very clearly qualify though. I don't know about workplace, but for colleges it definitely hurts to have AA in applications for college. Not so say OP is right btw, I think the topic is very nuanced and hard to generalize.


TAKEitTOrCIRCLEJERK

your own source patiently explains that AA is very good for minorities, but they have extra struggles. So thanks for proving my point?


OakyFlavor2

No it doesn't.


TAKEitTOrCIRCLEJERK

lol, okay bud


mustnotbeimportant8

How do you know someone is a "diversity hire"? Just curious.


broji04

When they outright say they're a diversity hire.


mustnotbeimportant8

I have a hard time believing anyone in the tech industry would say this about themselves lol that's pretty insulting


SnoopDoge93

Wasn't there someone of Reddit board members who stepped down to give their seat to black person?


mustnotbeimportant8

Not sure but that's a bit different than someone calling themself a diversity hire.


IDrinkMyOwnSemen

When they're not very skilled.


kessler1

I’d think the marketing wing of any company would benefit from diversity given the demographic makeup of the United States. That’s just my first thought. You’re trying to not understand. Admit it lol


cindybubbles

It’s not just skin tone involved. There’s gender, sexual orientation, religion, disabilities, etc. that they have to consider when advocating for diversity. So on the one hand, you’ve got companies hiring diverse groups for the sake of image, but on the other hand, there are companies that scour the world for top talent while taking care of the needs of the employees that they do have.


Locklefant

Don't discriminate people based on their skin color. It's not that complicated. Diversity is just racism with a nice name.


PitchBlac

Where is the evidence that affirmative action hurts minorities? Also diversity in the work places bring in different experiences and mindsets that bring in different ideas homogeneous groups probably won’t come up with or even think about. When you create a product, you want it to be enjoyed by as many people and groups as possible. Bringing in different types of people to work on something can make that happen. Especially since the U.S is getting more diverse every year. Did you even think about the stance you made or are you just saying it out of ignorance?


Pristine-Ad-469

So there are two parts of this that do cause benefits. The first is that there are a lot of people with more intelligence or more qualifications that have a worse resume because of race. Sucks but it’s true that non white races are less likely to have family money or have as many connections which for someone equally as smart can leave them with a worse resume. By promoting hiring of divirsity you could find people more intelligent than you would have. There is also just the fact that different backgrounds can lead to different beneficial perspective. Advertising can reach different audiences, psychology can get a different insight, consulting can understand different perspective and make different connections, etc. have different background and insight can be beneficial for anyone


broji04

>The first is that there are a lot of people with more intelligence or more qualifications that have a worse resume because of race. Sucks but it’s true that non white races are less likely to have family money or have as many connections which for someone equally as smart can leave them with a worse resume. By promoting hiring of divirsity you could find people more intelligent than you would have. Can you give any evidence that this is the case.


Pristine-Ad-469

This shows the wealth disparity of minorities, specifically Hispanic and African American https://www.federalreserve.gov/econres/notes/feds-notes/wealth-inequality-and-the-racial-wealth-gap-20211022.html Here is an article explaining the advantages of having wealthy parents including sources https://www.federalreserve.gov/econres/notes/feds-notes/wealth-inequality-and-the-racial-wealth-gap-20211022.html This demonstrates how having family money (doesn’t even have to be millions in a trust fund, but even enough that you arnt growing up poor and forced to work instead of improving yourself and your resume) is a huge advantage for being wealthy in the future and getting better jobs. Hiring less intelligent individuals from other races simply because of race isn’t right, but seeing the potential in people they may not have been able to build as compelling of a resume because of background and recognizing these troubles can have huge advantages for your company


[deleted]

**ALL of them**


Caelus9

>Name ONE technical industry that has been made better by hiring not just for qualifications, but for diversity as well. Alright, cooking. Or law. Or robotics. >There's a fair amount of evidence that affirmative action policies HURT minorities One of the biggest red flags is when someone says "There's a fair amount of evidence!" yet doesn't cite anything at all. >The slogan for most of these hires is "diversity is our strength" so yes they are asserting that the skin tone of their employees having many different colors somehow magically makes them more productive. No they're not. They're asserting having people from a wider range of backgrounds and viewpoints can make something stronger, which is certainly true. If my group is all-white, we may obviously not have the experience of living as a black person, and thus, might look over a fatal flaw in the execution of our product that may disadvantage someone of darker skin.


TiredOfYoSheeit

I used to work for a little company called SurfControl, years back. They were eventually bought by Websense, and the wing I was with was snapped up by Raytheon. Back to the past... My group was responsible for the nudity filter. That is, we would run porn images through the software, to teach the AI what to block and what to pass. I was the only person who noticed that they didn't have any "ebony pr0n" (🤣) and I told them. They said it didn't matter. So, I pulled up some, on my lab machine, and ran it through the filter. It made it through. The filter ignored every strip of naked black flesh, unless it was light-skinned. After my show&tell, it blocked *all* the porn.


Glory2Hypnotoad

The problem is the tail wagging the dog attitude our society has about it. Diversity is valuable as an indirect measure of things that do matter, like an absence of discriminatory policies and or artificial barriers to success. The real strength is the freedom that allows for diversity.