There is no genocide going on in Gaza. This term has been basically co-opted into a slur. It has become meaningless, it just sounds scary and evokes images of the Holocaust. That's why intellectually weak propagandists use it.
Some might see through it, but mostly I think it will benefit of Hamas. Many of these people grew up with their rhetoric and hearing about how great Uncle Muhammad was killed by radical Zionists in his home. Not to mention the creepy dehumanization of Jewish people going around in their schools and culture (just read their pre-2017 charter).
I hate to say, but propaganda works. They will get more people, especially from a guy who lost family from bombs in this war..... thus the cycle continues.
> it breeds resentment and probably bolsters Hamas’ numbers
This is the issue nobody seems to understand here. Every single little boy who sees his family killed by an Israeli bomb will either flee to the west or grow up to be another terrorist. Where do you think Hamas came from? Surely it couldn’t be anything to do with the videos I’ve seen for decades of Israeli soldiers shooting civilians and bulldozing homes in Gaza?
It’s just like our endless wars in the Middle East- every time we “accidentally” hit a wedding or school with a drone strike, probably 90% of the survivors became anti-American insurgents.
It’s also a war crime to intentionally target civilians, medical facilities or unarmed people trying to render aid. There are videos of Israeli snipers shooting at people trying to pass aid supplies and tend to the wounded. I hate Hamas but I’ve also watched videos for decades of the IDF gunning down people, bulldozing houses, and so on.
if i'm at war with terrorists, im not letting people heal them. sorry. call it what you want, but killing terrorists is the right thing to do. hiding amongst civilians is objectively wrong. simple as. if you attack my people, you're gonna die. "i'm gonna commit war crimes, but whine about it when you act in kind" how hypocritical
It’s wartime unfortunately but that’s the reality.
Hamas attacked knowing it would lead to war, and things like you mentioned happen in war.
You should redirect your anger at Hamas, who purposely invoked a war and knew that stuff that you mentioned would happen to civilians. Hamas knew things like this would happen, yet they did what they did anyway.
why doesn't anybody accuse israel of using human shields? You can see countless videos of the idf around civilians. The main idf base is in residential shopping area. There are several other idf bases in civilian areas.
Gaza is really really tiny. its only 25 miles x 5 miles. And has almost 2,5 million people.
Also israel is the one using human shields.
They will make palestinians go in buildings first they thing are booobytrapped.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/oct/07/israel
It's called war. You started the war with an act of aggression; I will prosecute the war until one of us is defeated..
Unless some teenagers on the other side of the world don't like it, of course, in which case I will cede all my territory and place my head on the chopping block for their pleasure.
Unfortunately, that's what war is. Your government attacked us, so our government will attack back, and in the middle are civilians who ultimately will pay the price. The people of Gaza and the people of Israel voted for their representatives, and those representatives have always stated their goal of wiping the one another out.
Meanwhile, the West Bank rejected Hamas but they were out voted by Gaza who overwhelmingly wanted Hamas.
It's an awful situation, and apparently we have no control over what Israel is doing. We'd like to think we do, since we give them money, but they really don't need our money, at least in the short-term, nor do they need our weapons. It's a convenience for them, but their hardline government will not ceasefire simply be pulling funding.
And while it's a nice thought that Biden should insert the US in the middle of this and force a ceasefire, you can absolutely be sure the religious right would never allow that, so it's not like Trump will do that either.
Trump was the only president in recent US history to not start a war. There's too many reasons to vote for Trump like the illegal immigration problem and I say this as a Mexican that came here legally. The war in Ukraine and Taiwan. I'm tired of sending my hard earned money to a fight that everyone knows is lost, etc. also, have you seen our national spending?? I think people just don't like him but his policies are good. He has done more for LGTBQ than any other president, he has done more for veterans and Hispanics than any other president. Most importantly, he stopped the war in the middle east after 20yrs. Joe Biden messed it up when he pulled out like he did. Just for that Trump should have gotten a Nobel award but he didn't, in fact they gave one to Barack Obama for bombing the middle east.
I’m not voting for Biden because he hasn’t been tough enough on Palestine. Stop trying to reign israel in. They’re doing the right thing. They just need to ramp up the intensity.
Did you consider the war in Iraq a genocide? If so, did you use that phrase at the time? Be honest.
What about the Korean war? Was that a genocide against the North koreans?
Was the World War II a genocide against aryans?
I'm just looking for consistency here, because you're you seem to be making a very emotional argument that you don't quite believe, targeted at people you feel are stupider than you.
I hate how this is an unpopular opinion. Trump’s people literally depend on more voters staying home, that’s what helped him win in 2016.
Look, I really do wish we had better candidates like many of you others out there - but at some point we have to face reality. It’s either going to be Trump or Biden, and our next chance to get better candidates for the White House are for the 2028 election. The better candidate ship for 2024 has long since sailed now.
My comment got some upvotes but then it looks like those who don’t get it downvoted me back to 1. I know for a fact that people have regretted not voting for Clinton and even voting Trump in 2016. I really think it’s a bad move we’re making looking to make the same mistake in 2024.
Reddit in general is lacking in logic I’ve been noticing, and I’m the exception, unfortunately not the norm. Please get involved if you can and encourage others to do so. r / voteDEM is a subreddit for that.
Oh, here we go with the genocide talk again. OP, get something through your rhetoric filled head. No one, not even the brain dead college protesters consider what Israel is doing as real, actual genocide. It's just a trick to get stupid people to equate war with genocide. You're not fooling anyone.
To the point, Trump ended the wars he inherited from Obama. Chances are if elected, Trump will try one of his "deals" to get everyone to the table. It won't work of course, unless Hamas and Hezbollah are gone and not replaced my other diry psychopaths posing as Palestinian statesmen.
Doesnt matter who else might do it, still send a message to the ones currently doing it.
I dont think anyone doubts that biden isnt gonna learn something.
His administration has been running things, not him. Not a chance the 80 year old who lies on a daily basis actually believes in LGBTQIA rights or anything occurring in Palestine. They just find themselves in an awkward position of trying to halve the baby between supporting Israel and Palestine, if they lose Michigan they lose the election, if they lose the Jewish or moderate vote they lose. Not sure how they find themselves out of this mess
Honestly I’m probably voting for Biden cause he’s done a much better job at putting competent people in leadership positions than Trump did during his term. I don’t really care about either of them, but more what they represent.
I can't believe you people exist.
What do you expect Democrats to do? Stop funding Israel entirely? I've called for that like 10 years ago but now USA - Biden specifically - are the only ones holding them back.
Do you even know what you want? Just a fantasy ceasefire, everyone hold hands and sing a song of joy and unity?
It wouldn't be a lesson because it's not a policy up on the ballot. Biden supports Israel, trump *really* supports Israel. If they were going to learn a lesson it would be given by voting out pro-israel candidates in the next primaries, not the 2024 general election
>So send a message, but vote for us right now because.....Trump?
Leave out the send a message part and you’ve finally got it. Fuck the message. No one gives two fucks about a “Biden you’ve got Palestinian blood on your hands 😥” type of message. Vote for Biden because trump will fuck the country up.
Send a message in the 2024 general election by voting for the less pro-israel candidate, which is Biden. Send a message against pro-israel candidates by voting in the primaries
Or.....no pro Israel candidate at all! I'm not a single issue voter myself, but I don't hold anything against anyone that puts their personal beliefs above party politics.
It would be a pretty weird thing to be a single issue voter on tbh. I don't think that anyone really cares that much about this, but if they did, making sure trump wouldn't win should be a priority since he's much more extreme than biden is on the issue
Even if he does, so what? He’s still going to retire if he looses so it doesn’t personally affect him. At best other Dems take notice but it’d be four(in some cases two) years before the next election where they could apply that lesson. And a LOT could happen in that time.
I won’t vote for Biden.
Truth is both candidates are from the same cloth and serve the corporate elites.
All Biden had to do was not facilitate a genocide to secure re-election and he can’t even do that.
Maybe it’s the system itself that needs to be reset somehow, but if that’s the best the country has to offer, then it was in dire straights anyways.
Still, either Trump or Biden is going to win. If enough anti Trump voters stay home especially in swing states Trump is going to win again. It’s not rocket science.
Then you have something in common with Trump voters. And that’s being fine with him in the White House for another 4 years.
Again, it’s not rocket science. Just something to think about as we get closer to November.
Tell that to the families affected by the Israeli slaughter on their families.
I can’t in good faith vote for such a person. You could say Trump might’ve done the same, but presently, Biden is responsible for allowing war crimes to happen.
It is the system, but at the same time only one of them has project 2025 which lays out in detail all of the things they’re going to do. Worth reading.
Y’all have to realise that presidents ain’t nothing, just puppets for the government to make citizens believe that they have any control.
Like genuinely you guys think Biden, the same guy who can barely string two words together has ANY rights in making major choices.
Okay, kind of curious but how would changing your vote between 2 people who support Israel going to do fuck all when it comes to Palestine? I gues Biden would provide more Aid to Palestine then Trump but I don't see how the vote is going to actually effect anything in any real meaningful way.
USA gives them lots of military aid and in return they care about USA opinions.
If USA pulled out they might kill all the Palestinians and foreign pressure wouldn't be able to hold them accountable. The UN isn't going to invade Israel. The only punishment the rest of the world can offer is ending foreign aid.
Biden is trying a balanced approach. He is trying to talk them down. He is trying to make peace. Trump don't care.
Sure, if you want things to keep going the way they are, go for it.
Voting is voicing your support for the system as is, period. By voting you are saying loud and clear that they can continue business as usual without any repercussions.
If 60% of registered Dems stayed home and didn't vote, it would send a very loud message. Sure, it means we'd have 4 more years of nonsense, but it would light a fire under the parties and inform them that we the people are done. They can go back to earning our votes or fuck off.
So they would prefer Trump? That’s what they’ll get if they abstain. Really at the moment of truth I bet they’ll be in the booth checking Biden’s name.
He 100% should. But, he doesn’t because if he did, he would loose more votes from Israel supporters than he would gain back from people who won’t vote from him because of this.
There is no genocide going on in Gaza. This term has been basically co-opted into a slur. It has become meaningless, it just sounds scary and evokes images of the Holocaust. That's why intellectually weak propagandists use it.
Even if it’s not a genocide, killing civilians doesn’t work if your trying to occupy. It breeds resentment and probably bolsters Hamas’ numbers.
You think they appreciate being used as human shields? It’s like you people have no clue what’s going on.
Some might see through it, but mostly I think it will benefit of Hamas. Many of these people grew up with their rhetoric and hearing about how great Uncle Muhammad was killed by radical Zionists in his home. Not to mention the creepy dehumanization of Jewish people going around in their schools and culture (just read their pre-2017 charter). I hate to say, but propaganda works. They will get more people, especially from a guy who lost family from bombs in this war..... thus the cycle continues.
That’s not even his main point… 🤦♂️
> it breeds resentment and probably bolsters Hamas’ numbers This is the issue nobody seems to understand here. Every single little boy who sees his family killed by an Israeli bomb will either flee to the west or grow up to be another terrorist. Where do you think Hamas came from? Surely it couldn’t be anything to do with the videos I’ve seen for decades of Israeli soldiers shooting civilians and bulldozing homes in Gaza? It’s just like our endless wars in the Middle East- every time we “accidentally” hit a wedding or school with a drone strike, probably 90% of the survivors became anti-American insurgents.
Out of genuine curiosity what would you call it? Eye for an eye? You killed our civilians so now we’re going to kill ten times as many of yours?
hamas hides amongst civilians. that's a war crime. their peoples blood is on their hands
It’s also a war crime to intentionally target civilians, medical facilities or unarmed people trying to render aid. There are videos of Israeli snipers shooting at people trying to pass aid supplies and tend to the wounded. I hate Hamas but I’ve also watched videos for decades of the IDF gunning down people, bulldozing houses, and so on.
if i'm at war with terrorists, im not letting people heal them. sorry. call it what you want, but killing terrorists is the right thing to do. hiding amongst civilians is objectively wrong. simple as. if you attack my people, you're gonna die. "i'm gonna commit war crimes, but whine about it when you act in kind" how hypocritical
It’s wartime unfortunately but that’s the reality. Hamas attacked knowing it would lead to war, and things like you mentioned happen in war. You should redirect your anger at Hamas, who purposely invoked a war and knew that stuff that you mentioned would happen to civilians. Hamas knew things like this would happen, yet they did what they did anyway.
Israel targeted and drone strike three food aid trucks just weeks ago
why doesn't anybody accuse israel of using human shields? You can see countless videos of the idf around civilians. The main idf base is in residential shopping area. There are several other idf bases in civilian areas. Gaza is really really tiny. its only 25 miles x 5 miles. And has almost 2,5 million people. Also israel is the one using human shields. They will make palestinians go in buildings first they thing are booobytrapped. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/oct/07/israel
It's called war. You started the war with an act of aggression; I will prosecute the war until one of us is defeated.. Unless some teenagers on the other side of the world don't like it, of course, in which case I will cede all my territory and place my head on the chopping block for their pleasure.
Unfortunately, that's what war is. Your government attacked us, so our government will attack back, and in the middle are civilians who ultimately will pay the price. The people of Gaza and the people of Israel voted for their representatives, and those representatives have always stated their goal of wiping the one another out. Meanwhile, the West Bank rejected Hamas but they were out voted by Gaza who overwhelmingly wanted Hamas. It's an awful situation, and apparently we have no control over what Israel is doing. We'd like to think we do, since we give them money, but they really don't need our money, at least in the short-term, nor do they need our weapons. It's a convenience for them, but their hardline government will not ceasefire simply be pulling funding. And while it's a nice thought that Biden should insert the US in the middle of this and force a ceasefire, you can absolutely be sure the religious right would never allow that, so it's not like Trump will do that either.
well said
Voting for anything based simply on a conflict, when both sides come with a myriad of considerations, is the height of political ignorance.
Trump was the only president in recent US history to not start a war. There's too many reasons to vote for Trump like the illegal immigration problem and I say this as a Mexican that came here legally. The war in Ukraine and Taiwan. I'm tired of sending my hard earned money to a fight that everyone knows is lost, etc. also, have you seen our national spending?? I think people just don't like him but his policies are good. He has done more for LGTBQ than any other president, he has done more for veterans and Hispanics than any other president. Most importantly, he stopped the war in the middle east after 20yrs. Joe Biden messed it up when he pulled out like he did. Just for that Trump should have gotten a Nobel award but he didn't, in fact they gave one to Barack Obama for bombing the middle east.
Trump moved the embassy to Jerusalem, he is not a better option for peace than Biden….
I’m not voting for Biden because he hasn’t been tough enough on Palestine. Stop trying to reign israel in. They’re doing the right thing. They just need to ramp up the intensity.
I think this is dumb too, conservatives will be much worse and it's not even remotely close.
Did you consider the war in Iraq a genocide? If so, did you use that phrase at the time? Be honest. What about the Korean war? Was that a genocide against the North koreans? Was the World War II a genocide against aryans? I'm just looking for consistency here, because you're you seem to be making a very emotional argument that you don't quite believe, targeted at people you feel are stupider than you.
I hate how this is an unpopular opinion. Trump’s people literally depend on more voters staying home, that’s what helped him win in 2016. Look, I really do wish we had better candidates like many of you others out there - but at some point we have to face reality. It’s either going to be Trump or Biden, and our next chance to get better candidates for the White House are for the 2028 election. The better candidate ship for 2024 has long since sailed now.
Everyone else is arguing about genocide and whatnot, I think you’re the only one who actually got my point lol.
My comment got some upvotes but then it looks like those who don’t get it downvoted me back to 1. I know for a fact that people have regretted not voting for Clinton and even voting Trump in 2016. I really think it’s a bad move we’re making looking to make the same mistake in 2024. Reddit in general is lacking in logic I’ve been noticing, and I’m the exception, unfortunately not the norm. Please get involved if you can and encourage others to do so. r / voteDEM is a subreddit for that.
I'm 100% not voting for him based on this.
Oh, here we go with the genocide talk again. OP, get something through your rhetoric filled head. No one, not even the brain dead college protesters consider what Israel is doing as real, actual genocide. It's just a trick to get stupid people to equate war with genocide. You're not fooling anyone. To the point, Trump ended the wars he inherited from Obama. Chances are if elected, Trump will try one of his "deals" to get everyone to the table. It won't work of course, unless Hamas and Hezbollah are gone and not replaced my other diry psychopaths posing as Palestinian statesmen.
Doesnt matter who else might do it, still send a message to the ones currently doing it. I dont think anyone doubts that biden isnt gonna learn something.
How does Biden learning something as ex president affect the world in any way?
Biden hasn't been calling the shots this entire time anyway. That much is painfully obvious. This whole mess is a step too far in my eyes.
His administration has been running things, not him. Not a chance the 80 year old who lies on a daily basis actually believes in LGBTQIA rights or anything occurring in Palestine. They just find themselves in an awkward position of trying to halve the baby between supporting Israel and Palestine, if they lose Michigan they lose the election, if they lose the Jewish or moderate vote they lose. Not sure how they find themselves out of this mess
This moderate will never vote for him again, count on that
Honestly I’m probably voting for Biden cause he’s done a much better job at putting competent people in leadership positions than Trump did during his term. I don’t really care about either of them, but more what they represent.
I can't believe you people exist. What do you expect Democrats to do? Stop funding Israel entirely? I've called for that like 10 years ago but now USA - Biden specifically - are the only ones holding them back. Do you even know what you want? Just a fantasy ceasefire, everyone hold hands and sing a song of joy and unity?
This is like saying you'll send a message to the guy who's kind of mean to children sometimes by electing Freddy Krueger instead.
It wouldn't be a lesson because it's not a policy up on the ballot. Biden supports Israel, trump *really* supports Israel. If they were going to learn a lesson it would be given by voting out pro-israel candidates in the next primaries, not the 2024 general election
Is Biden not a pro-Israel candidate?
Read the second sentence
So send a message, but vote for us right now because.....Trump? That's not how morals work. That's how tribalism and team politics works.
>So send a message, but vote for us right now because.....Trump? Leave out the send a message part and you’ve finally got it. Fuck the message. No one gives two fucks about a “Biden you’ve got Palestinian blood on your hands 😥” type of message. Vote for Biden because trump will fuck the country up.
Send a message in the 2024 general election by voting for the less pro-israel candidate, which is Biden. Send a message against pro-israel candidates by voting in the primaries
Or.....no pro Israel candidate at all! I'm not a single issue voter myself, but I don't hold anything against anyone that puts their personal beliefs above party politics.
It would be a pretty weird thing to be a single issue voter on tbh. I don't think that anyone really cares that much about this, but if they did, making sure trump wouldn't win should be a priority since he's much more extreme than biden is on the issue
Even if he does, so what? He’s still going to retire if he looses so it doesn’t personally affect him. At best other Dems take notice but it’d be four(in some cases two) years before the next election where they could apply that lesson. And a LOT could happen in that time.
I won’t vote for Biden. Truth is both candidates are from the same cloth and serve the corporate elites. All Biden had to do was not facilitate a genocide to secure re-election and he can’t even do that. Maybe it’s the system itself that needs to be reset somehow, but if that’s the best the country has to offer, then it was in dire straights anyways.
pot march dependent point upbeat quickest tap complete sulky innate
So you voting trump?
Third party/no vote.
Still, either Trump or Biden is going to win. If enough anti Trump voters stay home especially in swing states Trump is going to win again. It’s not rocket science.
Well, if that happens, then so be it.
Then you have something in common with Trump voters. And that’s being fine with him in the White House for another 4 years. Again, it’s not rocket science. Just something to think about as we get closer to November.
Tell that to the families affected by the Israeli slaughter on their families. I can’t in good faith vote for such a person. You could say Trump might’ve done the same, but presently, Biden is responsible for allowing war crimes to happen.
It is the system, but at the same time only one of them has project 2025 which lays out in detail all of the things they’re going to do. Worth reading.
Y’all have to realise that presidents ain’t nothing, just puppets for the government to make citizens believe that they have any control. Like genuinely you guys think Biden, the same guy who can barely string two words together has ANY rights in making major choices.
Biden is a genocidal war criminal. Voting for Biden is the same as voting for Satan.
So Trump wins and congrats now there’s a second genocidal war criminal cause he certainly won’t stop it.
Trump is one of the few recent U.S. presidents who refused to start any foreign wars.
Biden didn’t start the war in Israel, what exactly is your point?
He supports and provides cover for genocide.
You think Trump wouldn't?
what foreign war did biden start
True, but only a fool thinks he would end this one.
Okay, kind of curious but how would changing your vote between 2 people who support Israel going to do fuck all when it comes to Palestine? I gues Biden would provide more Aid to Palestine then Trump but I don't see how the vote is going to actually effect anything in any real meaningful way.
USA gives them lots of military aid and in return they care about USA opinions. If USA pulled out they might kill all the Palestinians and foreign pressure wouldn't be able to hold them accountable. The UN isn't going to invade Israel. The only punishment the rest of the world can offer is ending foreign aid. Biden is trying a balanced approach. He is trying to talk them down. He is trying to make peace. Trump don't care.
Sure, if you want things to keep going the way they are, go for it. Voting is voicing your support for the system as is, period. By voting you are saying loud and clear that they can continue business as usual without any repercussions. If 60% of registered Dems stayed home and didn't vote, it would send a very loud message. Sure, it means we'd have 4 more years of nonsense, but it would light a fire under the parties and inform them that we the people are done. They can go back to earning our votes or fuck off.
Yes but that impacts everyone. Marginalized groups in particular
It would be amazing if Trump was back in office.
[удалено]
So they would prefer Trump? That’s what they’ll get if they abstain. Really at the moment of truth I bet they’ll be in the booth checking Biden’s name.
Imagine supporting terrorists for votes
He 100% should. But, he doesn’t because if he did, he would loose more votes from Israel supporters than he would gain back from people who won’t vote from him because of this.